 Welcome everyone to the Equal Opportunities Committee. It's the 12th meeting of 2014 and I can ask everyone just to set your electronic devices to flight mode or off please. Today's first agenda is an item, an evidence session on female genital mutilation and we'll start the session with some introductions. At the table we have our clerking team and research team, official reporters and broadcasting services and around the room we're also supported by the security officers and welcome to the lady in the public gallery as well. My name is Margaret McCulloch and I'm the convener of the committee and I'll now invite members and witnesses to introduce themselves and could ask the witnesses when you're doing so just to explain your roles as well please and starting here on my right. Good morning, I'm Marco Biagge, I'm the MSP for Edinburgh Central and deputy convener of the committee. Hi, I'm Siobhan MacMahon, MSP for Central Scotland. John Mason, MSP for Glasgow Sheddleston. Good morning, Christian Allard, MSP for North East Scotland. Alec Johnston, member for North East Scotland. Good morning Johnston, MSP Highlands and Islands. Good morning, I'm Willie Gill, detective superintendent with Police Scotland. I was recently promoted in March into a new role within the specialist crime division of Police Scotland and I have a national responsibility for child and adult protection. Prior to that role I was a detective chief inspector in charge of the public protection unit in Edinburgh so I have a background in child protection. Good morning, I'm Nadine Allianne, I work with Police Scotland as well. I'm in the national safer communities department of the specialist crime division and we deal with hate crime, we deal with community tensions, community engagement and we're also responsible for the quality and diversity outcomes for Police Scotland. I'm going to start the questions and first of all congratulations on your promotion and your role as well. In your written submission you actually state that since April 2013 there have been 14 referrals submitted to Police Scotland relating to 16 children at risk of FGM. Can you give us some background and how those referrals would have been dealt with Police Scotland and also what your training policy is as well please? In terms of the background to the referrals we very much view female genital mutilation as a child protection issue. The referrals that have come into Police Scotland have been dealt with in line with our child protection procedures so each one will be assessed on a multi agency basis, a discussion will take place with local authorities, social workers, police officers who are trained to undertake child protection discussions of that nature and there will also be a communication with health to get the background on the child involved and then after a decision is taken on a multi agency basis what's the most appropriate way to progress that referral so there's a number outcomes from that and one of the first things to determine is it child protection or not so that decision is made at that discussion and it's commonly referred to as an interagency referral discussion and we follow the national guidance for child protection with regards to that. In terms of training we've rolled out significant amounts of training to front line officers and specialist officers on honour based violence, force marriage and female genital mutilation. We have a honour based violence, force marriage and female genital mutilation detective sergeant who performs a co-ordination role and also delivers training to officers at various stages throughout their service. There's probationary inputs given to officers at the Scottish Police College and there's also inputs given to specialist officers for example on domestic abuse courses, on senior investigating officers courses and a variety of other national courses. We also organise awareness raising through an annual conference that's held in December each year which covers all HBV, force marriage and female genital mutilation. So we recognise that it's an ongoing issue actually it's not a one-off event for us training needs to continue as new officers come into the service as we understand more about female genital mutilation and we recognise that awareness raising must continue within Police Scotland when we do that. I mean I'm assuming that the 16 children at risk that was reported to you there was no action taken is that correct? No there was action taken on a multi agency basis so there would be a number of actions taken for example there would be you know a joint visit with a social worker and a police officer to the house or potentially a joint visit between a social worker and a health visitor to assess the risk and get a real sense of what is going on in that child and family's life and the view is and the key priority is is to prevent or reduce the risk of that child being subjected to FGM. I don't know if I'm allowed to ask this but I'm going to ask it anyway. Was any of the children actually had FGM actually done to them? No it's the answer it is a sensitive area but no there were no cases identified and I think that's one of the things to stress on where we are in terms of referrals for FGM. Most of the referrals have been made about a concern or a risk of FGM and key to that is the preventative approach to stop FGM occurring. Most referrals have been concerns. Have you had any experience of young children or teenagers actually having this actually done to them at all? Has anybody reported it actually being done to them? Yeah off the referrals that we had since Police Scotland and there was one referral that indicated that there was a suspicion that had occurred and again child protection procedures were followed however that was fully investigated and it was ascertained that in actual effect it was a false alarm. There has been one case that I am aware of that was prior to Police Scotland where I believe that there was a concern about a child having actually been subjected to FGM. Do you think you've got enough resources to actually tackle the problem? We don't understand the problem, we don't understand the extent of FGM in Scotland. If you look at the statistics that are reported to the police arguably and this is not my view but people could say that there is not a problem in Scotland with the low numbers of referrals. So we don't understand the problem till we increase report time, fully understand the prevalence of female genital mutilation in our society within Scotland then it's very difficult to say have we got sufficient resources or not. In terms of broader child protection in terms of the number of referrals we have then we are adequately resourced to deal with those referrals. Do you think that other agencies are hesitant to actually report concerns they've actually got to use about children maybe having FGM done to them? Our sense is that there is a lack of referrals coming in about female genital mutilation and I think historically and currently there's probably a number of barriers to that reporting process. How would you suggest you actually change those attitudes and fears and concerns from those organisations because at the end of the day it is actually child abuse and if it was another former child abuse then agencies would be more keen to actually act upon it? Absolutely, I think you fit the nail in the head it is clearly child abuse and serious child abuse at that. We need to emphasise that to all practitioners where there is a risk of female genital mutilation then we need to follow child protection procedures and we need to gain confidence within the third sector agencies that we will deal with any referrals in a sensitive manner in line with child protection procedures and follow the investigation through. Thank you very much. Can I pass you on to John Finney now please? Good morning and thanks very much indeed for the written evidence. I'm greatly reassured from what I read about the approach that's been adopted by Police Scotland and I know Police Scotland like ourselves will be awaiting the Scottish Refugee Council scoping exercise with great interest. I'll also note you talk about an awareness raising conference. The most refreshing thing I heard you say and people may be surprised as we don't understand the problem because I think that is the key to this issue and I wonder if you'd like to comment on how we're likely to understand more about it because it will require attitudinal changes and for any law to have buy-in in the public they must understand that there's something wrong. So what role do you see for the police in trying to shape attitudinal changes? Within my role in the safety of a community department I think one of the barriers that definitely exists and I see it in amongst officers is almost a fear of dealing with things when there's diversity in cultural issues so people are probably scared to either upset or be seen as racist whatever it might be because it tends to be black minority ethnic communities that are involved in this process so certainly from a national safety community department for our own staff where we're constantly trying to develop retraining to see that yes we have to wherever we can adhere to cultural and acknowledge them and respect them but that should not come in the way of any police investigation so that's something that my department are constantly trying to reiterate that yes it's important to acknowledge cultural and faith issues but when it comes to the light of this that this takes precedence over or upsetting anyone's you know issues with the terms of cultural faith. I only ask it on falling on from that line it's not necessarily a personal view but is there a difficulty the link with honour based violence and forced marriage does that presume a certain customer base for want of a better? I don't think there's a difficulty I mean I think we're absolutely committed to challenging all aspects honour based violence and we've done that through awareness raising and training and we've got to. I perhaps didn't explain that but I mean as an organisational thing from the police the fact that these issues are so closely linked where they might not I mean we're just dealing with one aspect of that FGM would it be perceived as you know the police dealing certainly just with the minority community the linkage with these three issues because in some respects that perhaps unrelated. I think I'm struggling a bit we understand your question to be honest. Okay you have the same staff dealing with all three of these issues and there are sensitivities about all of them. Yeah but we are particularly focused on the issue involving young people here. Are people less likely to come forward if you think there's going to be issues regarding marriage that's going to be looked at as well as issues regarding the children I'm just wondering if I'm thinking about possible barriers to people coming forward. I don't think so I mean in terms of Police Scotland we've got to ensure that our relationship with communities that we get the message out that actually we're all about protecting people and we want to protect people want to protect the most vulnerable people in our societies so therefore if anybody comes forward to Police Scotland to report any connect on our base violence then we've got to ensure and we will ensure that we treat it sensitively we listen to their concerns we work with them we engage with partners in the third sector to provide support offer referrals to the individuals involved but fundamentally what we must do is reduce the risk to those individuals be it child or adult and we will do that. Ask if there's any liaison with Police authorities abroad for instance in the countries where there is a prevalence of FGM. What we are doing is looking at good practice around the world. Personally I've done a bit of research not in depth I have to say but to look at what's happening in France I think Kenya at the moment there's been a drop in FGM cases reported albeit there's been not a great number of prosecutions as I understand it in Kenya more prosecutions in France and I think Holland is held up as a model although I've not had an opportunity to study the Dutch response in detail and we also sit on an act poke committee with our colleagues in England on the wider issue of child abuse. Finally in relation to liaison with other organisations we've been told of the border force metropolitan police service national crime agency carrying out an initiative it says yeah an initiative at UK airports were you involved in that at all at the Scottish Police Service? One directly involved in that however our strategic honour based violence force managing FGM working group we have a detective superintendent who's in charge of the border command in terms of policing for Scotland and it's certainly something we're looking at initiatives we've rolled out training actually previously to staff police staff within a number of airports in Scotland and that's something we're looking to continue doing and we've also been asked by partner agencies within airports to consider offering training along with third partner third sector agencies to deliver training to employees of airports so it's ongoing. On that with Mr Crawford who heads up the border's command I've set up a consultation group on Edinburgh airport and Aberdeen airport and that's made up of a group of lay people but we've accessed through local equality councils and the whole aim of that group is to have a two-way process whereby we've already done some training in fact on human trafficking for example FGM is on the agenda as is force marriage and staff training as well with police Scotland and other agencies that work at the airport so very new those two groups but the idea is as a name to dress a quality consultation group is to update these people from the communities to for them to then feedback so this little things like for example the body scanners things that there are there's myths about in terms of the upset various communities or are seen as contrary to their culture of faith so they're in the early stages but they're they're developing and we'll certainly introduce FGM as a training issue for them as well. There's no issue with information sharing across the UK between agencies and that on this vital issue. Certainly not within within the police service and local authorities we raise and also you know locally and nationally with the third sector partners okay thanks very much needy. Can I just briefly come in before this before I hand you over to Christian when you're talking about sharing information one of the witnesses we actually spoke to in a previous session spoke about the idea that England was looking at like a card a kind of a medical card that when the families take the young girl out of the country back to their homeland that the card actually confirms that girl actually hasn't had FGM imposed upon her and the girl was actually saying that when they then show that to the family back then they say look if we bring the daughter back and she's actually being mutilated with FGM then we will be imprisoned we will we will be criminals and then we won't be able to actually send you money to help to support you and she was saying this is actually being quite effective have you heard of that at all? I've not heard of that in any any great detail but I think any initiatives that we can employ are certainly worth considering so I'd be interested to find more out about that. See if you do find more about it could you report back to us and give us some more information then? Certainly. Excellent and I apologise it's not Christian it's actually John Mason that's next to ask you a question. That's okay, that was getting missed out there. Thanks very much convener. I mean following on really from John Finnie's kind of line of questioning that there's clearly a balance to be struck between building up relationships with the community and enforcing the law I suppose at one end but I mean also protection as you've said yourself and I mean presumably that actually applies to all communities in one sense but I mean how do you get that balance right between the two? I've got to be clear this is an absolutely abhorrent practice and it is a criminal practice so where there is evidence of such a serious crime being committed that takes precedence and we must investigate that thoroughly and if there is a sufficiency of evidence then we need to be absolutely clear people will be reported to the procurator fiscal so I think that's from the policing perspective that is our fundamental position however there's a whole other agenda and an equally important agenda is about prevention and it's about attitude and all change so we recognise that is important and that's fundamentally what child protection is about so therefore it's a canasi is a continuum a continuum of risk but actually when a child has been subjected to that brutal assault then action needs to be taken and I think that's right and proper. You talk about continuum it's quite a good word I mean so presumably the other organisations are part of that continuum as well I mean would the emphasis be really that maybe either third sector or like schools and things would emphasise more building up their relationships and then the police are there to do a bit more of the enforcement if that kind of action is needed. I think actually although the enforcement is important it's important that that can be done in a thorough and a sensitive manner so it's not necessarily heavy-handed enforcement but actually thorough it's professional and it's accountable and I think that's really important and in doing that I think you can gain hopefully attitude and all change gain support within affected communities for change but actually that bit on its own is only one part of that jigsaw I mean if we think enforcement is the key it's going to solve the problem you know of FGM I think we're mistaken it's a far wider issue than that is one important aspect of the bigger jigsaw so we need all to come together and with all all agencies involved in transportation I've got a part in a role to play in that. I think it's important again we reiterate this to your critical instant training that's ongoing at the Scottish Police College whereby we can't just go to these communities in times of crisis or in times of conflict we have to build positive relationships engage with them in the good times as well as the more difficult times and that's something that we do through again local engagement there are local policing plans to make sure we're not just going there to enforce all the time so through school link officers through a whole variety of engagement processes there are part reporting centres are spring up around the country to support what's already there we're trying to build that trust and confidence so that they're more likely to come to us but also if we need to go to them to deal with a difficult issue like FGM they're more likely to trust us and hopefully come forward with it. I mean how would you assess at the moment the level of trust and confidence with minority communities I mean my guess is that it probably varies between communities and I mean clearly we've had a large Pakistani community for a long time in Scotland and now you have people from that community in the police and I'm guessing the relationship there is getting quite strong but we've got other groups who maybe just within the last few years have come in from maybe some of the African countries and we're going to be right in assuming that that relationship's on the starting. Yeah no it's a constant challenge for Police Scotland the changing communities and that's what the local policing aspects absolutely vital through it should be a continuous process of engagement of gathering concerns but also a continuing mapping of the communities who's coming in who's you know who's coming into into our communities for example the Somalian community in through Glasgow there's quite a big Somalian community there the criminalisation of cat that's coming up at the end of this month we're constantly trying you know these are new things for us as well and communities are seen that you know they perceive things as targeting against their community so we're constantly trying to one understand and map who people are where they are then what their needs are and then through engagement through public perception surveys through again doing creative in terms of how we engage as well through social media so perhaps more younger people have to constantly try and refurbish that we engage with people and make sure we feed that into policing plans and that's reflected through work with our partners as well. That impact on you know how you allocate officers to particular areas I mean you put more women into certain areas because perhaps some of the community are more comfortable with women? We have the luxury to actually target such as for example there's a large Polish community yes there are some Polish officers but we can't target is that but they are we have a pool of officers that we can use for example for interfinent translating if it's an urgent matter things like that but it's yes we try and make sure that all our officers and staff have a good awareness of different communities but it's difficult it's a challenge they're constantly changing but we also use for example when we don't know all the answers which is you know unfortunately a lot of the time was difficult issues perhaps we have community lay advisors so for example our department's just set up a strategic advisory group a bit like the IEGs that are down in ACPRO in England and Wales made up of a variety of communities whether it's Black Minority Ethic, Transgender, LGBT, whatever it might be and they're just recently established and the likes of our policies and procedures to do this GM that's a sort of group that we go to for them to then feedback to their communities to ask their chain if we've got the right approach so there's a whole host of tactics we try to employ to make sure we're on the right lines but we're aware as you say continuum it's constantly changing so it's a challenge. We can't target specifically officers in certain areas necessarily but we do offer wherever we can special arrangements so for example with the reporting online there's a part that says do you have any special requirements and that might be a female officer it might be you know to make a report out with a police station so we try wherever we can to meet the needs of these special requirements. Mark will be at you with now like to ask you some questions. Thank you. One of the things that's been pointed to sometimes by commentators is the lack of actual arrests in Scotland and until recently south of the border as well. How important do you think that is in order to be seen to be taking this seriously and how much would it be tokenism if an arrest was simply to be done for the sake of addressing those concerns? Arrest will be done for tokenism. Arrest will be carried out when there's a sufficiency of evidence to arrest people and we're absolutely committed to tackling female genital mutilation. I think it is important I think you know having a criminal law that says this abhorrent practice is criminal I think that that is very very important. I think what we've now got to do as a society is increase our understanding increase our reporting increase our child protection referrals and with those actions and increase our engagement with affected communities and gain trust with those steps I think we will have further reporting greater opportunity to investigate these abhorrent practices and greater opportunity to gain evidence to hold those criminals accountable for their actions. One of the things that's been suggested in evidence so far is the and we've just come up already is the difficulty of getting essentially family members to criminalise each other. Now that must also be the case for reporting of other forms of child abuse. Other than the cultural sensitivities are there any particular issues with that in the context of FGM or is it the cultural issue that makes it different from child abuse more generally? I think that it's seen as a taboo subject it's within communities I don't think it's openly discussed I think there's challenges and you're absolutely right challenges that exist in a whole range of kind of inter familial crimes that are reported but there are challenges about loyalties mixed emotions fear actually disempowerment of young girls and their ability to to come forward to services there's a whole range of barriers that we need to overcome I think in terms of FGM because it's an entrenched practice in affected communities and I think you know some of the some of the commentators go back to say it's existed for 2000 or more years it's thoroughly entrenched now that is a significant challenge but we must face that challenge as a society within Scotland and overcome it by working together and actually clearly labelling this is child abuse and child protection you expect to hear of a potential case I mean you've got those examples of where you have had the referrals so what were the sources were they the young people themselves interestingly the sources have come from a range of concerned individuals they've come from school they've come via local authority they've come via NHS and they've come actually from from parents on occasion so there's just now although it's a really small number there is a there's a mixed pattern and actually that's what we see in child protection more you know generally so it's very difficult actually for a young child to disclose immediately to a police officer it's far more likely that that risk will come to someone else's attention and that's where we need to absolutely be clear of our responsibilities of identifying the risks associated with female genital mutilation and have procedures in place that we can identify as child protection and refer it on so that child protection procedures can be followed all of those cases were incidents where children were at risk rather than had actually had it happen after the event if there was to be a case that came to your attention after the event then presumably there would be investigation and potentially prosecution that you know i can i see four areas of four categories really we have a situation where we have an adult who suffered female genital mutilation now that that adult has been subjected to in my view a horrific assault that person potentially is the victim of a crime depending on when it happened and where it happened so we've got to have supportive services round about that person we then have an adult who has been subjected to fgm who becomes pregnant now it's not to say that that adult is going to go out and commit fgm on their their their their child but actually we've got to identify that that is a risk factor and that risk has got to be thoroughly assessed and taken account of and that risk will shift perhaps throughout that child's life we then have a situation where we have children who are at risk from fgm and that's clearly child protection and needs addressed and the final category that i consider is actually where we have a child that we are aware of has suffered fgm and again that's child protection and requires to be met with a criminal investigation response to that presume since there have been no arrests or you haven't mentioned them before that there haven't been any examples of after the event fgm drawn to your attention in the last year not in the last year yes there are changes happening to the legislation south of the border to cover habitual as well as permanent residents is that something you're aware of and that's when you're aware of what what are your views on the effect of that with regard to all of these areas that i just asked about that closes a gap in the law actually so i think it's strengthened as a law and we would welcome that that should happen more widely in terms of Scotland and yes i think the legislation should change to close that gap in the law and do you think people are aware of the current laws sufficiently you know all this that we've talked about especially i don't so much mean amongst the communities i mean amongst the the public sector and the teachers and the nhs workers and all of that that you mentioned i think the referrals i think previous research and information we've indicated that there's further work to be done in that area and and i think within the police as well we cannot be complacent we have devoted resource and we've devoted training but actually it's on it's on going and we've got to continue that work and i'll pass you over to christian now to ask some questions thank you very much convener i would like to go back to the prosecution very well the first prosecution in England and Wales for alleged fgm being earlier this year but the media is talking about it we heard during our inquiry that the media from time to time even put it on the phone page and now we've got some political attention because of course the committee is looking after it do you feel under pressure to make more prosecutions i think i don't think we feel under pressure to make more prosecutions i think what we need to do is absolutely treat this as a child protection matter and investigate cases that are reported to the police as a child protection matter in partnership and where there is evidence we will report to to to the property or fiscal i think that is our role so i don't see it as a pressure i see more of a i see the the pressure actually the pressure is on us not just the police but on us as a society to address the challenge fgm but you know in all aspects so as a society within scotland i strongly feel that we need to rise that challenge and clearly send out a strong message that is unacceptable in scotland he welcomes a pressure to address the problem but the pressure and the media attention around about female genital mutilation is welcome because it is a problem and we need to address it but but a pressure directly only on prosecution would you welcome the tempting no i think i've said before prosecution is only one element it is an important element and actually when there is opportunities to report cases to the procurator fiscal we must do that vigorously thoroughly and professionally and and we must we must do that there's there's no excuse for not doing that so we welcome any opportunity that we get to predict any child that is at risk of female genital mutilation if a case is reported to us and we will thoroughly investigate that so we welcome that opportunity and we would encourage actively encourage any person within our society that has any information that fgm has been practised or there is a child at risk to come forward and report that to the police or to other other agencies with a view to it being progressed as a child protection matter so we actually welcome the attention of female genital mutilation because we feel it is an issue that needs to be addressed do you have that discussion with your colleagues down south in the committee you were talking about about that pressure from media of that political pressure is it part of the discussion that you're having that that discussion but it's certainly something i'll pick up on following this this meeting and and perhaps engage in discussion right about that and what about if i change the subject what about the good example you talked about good example a good practices and the convener talked about one is there any good practices that you've seen in your research but we've not talked about yet in this committee from other countries it's very hard to judge because i think actually that there's a number of areas where for example i think france has had over 100 prosecutions now you have to look at the legal system in france you have to look at a whole range of issues and how they got to that position and and i would have to do further work actually to determine actually where is the good practice and and i think there's there's an argument to say certainly globally that that our efforts against the fgm are are are still failing because it is reported internationally that children are still being subjected to this a foreign practice so i think it's actually a bit early to talk about good practice i think what we've got to do is to identify effective practice from not just in Scotland but around the world within Scotland i think we have strong child protection procedures female genital mutilation is a child protection matter so if we can ensure that we get referrals into our child protection process then we can deal with that in the context of child protection and the procedures that we have so i think there are robust child protection procedures and it's just about we need to to fill in some gaps in reporting we shouldn't focus so much on the on the prosecution but more focus on the work that the agencies are doing and what was the point we should in different countries prosecution as i say before is a vital part of the overall jigsaw and it's the role of the police to investigate thoroughly and where there is evidence report that to the procurator fiscal and we are absolutely committed to doing that help on the research maybe translating some of the french research that you are doing but it would be good to share if you got any research with the committee that would be excellent thank you very much something just occurred to me they are just now and it is sometimes as i understand the tension that can't exist between the police service and social services about the responsibilities and it is that balance between you know enforcing a law about heinious crime visited on child and the well-being of the child is that a balance that is i imagine is particularly pertinent to these sort of cases fgm i mean the interest of the child will always be paramount in this absolutely you put the nail in the head there actually it's about protection of the child the welfare of the child and reducing risk there are clearly you know different roles and different responsibilities but there is a collective understanding with within child protection that will work together and actually we all have our own collective we will have our individual responsibilities but we have a collective responsibility as well and in general terms in child protection it's my view that we we work pretty well with our with our partners in that mean that detectives intend that there wouldn't i mean not that i would imagine that any case that this would be the case that we know tokenism that might mean that on occasions when there is a sufficiency of evidence if it's not in the interests of the child a prosecution wouldn't take place that would be a matter for the procurator of fiscal it would be our job to report thoroughly investigate and report the facts of procurator of fiscal so it wouldn't be about tokenism i can assure you of that it would be about thorough professional investigation and where there is evidence a sufficiency of evidence that will be reported to the procurator of fiscal alongside that there'll be measures put in place to support protect and ensure the needs of the child they're met. Siobhan, thank you it was on obviously we've talked about the culture and we've talked about religion or faith in the practices to that but as you know when people are coming from other countries they tend to live near one another in certain parts of Scotland so we're just wondering if police Scotland are targeting the resources in geographical areas or if it is a widespread approach across Scotland and taking that approach. Well in terms of the broader child protection issue all 14 divisions across police Scotland have public protection units with child protection officers based within those units and they take slightly different shapes across the country because of demand because of a number of issues so there is a national standard for child protection that we want to drive out across police Scotland to ensure the actual practices are consistent across the country however as you say there's different communities you know located in different areas of the country and within those areas of officers will have different experiences but there will be sufficiently resource to deal with the child protection challenges in each area if that makes sense. Another thing is in your submission to us you state that police Scotland's views that the legislation alone will not eliminate FGM and obviously you've repeated that in evidence today but you also say there's a lack of knowledge and awareness of FGM and that has to be tackled at a local and national level so we're just wondering if you have any specific proposals for that given that obviously we are doing an inquiry and we'll be calling on at some stage I would hope both our local and national partners in the government to do something a bit more if necessary so do you have anything specific that could help you as you do your work? Awareness raising is key within police Scotland we've set up a structure of three committees where we have a national working group where we have a strategic committee with partners when the government midwives health Procurate Fiscal attend that so we're engaged there at awareness raising we have a kind of divisional level we have a national forum where we have champions within each division for HBV force managing FGM come together we discuss pertinent issues look about how we can improve practice learn from each other's experiences across the country and then we introduce that consultancy group with such third sector partners where we can canvas their views on particular topics and understand that so absolutely not complacent we also sit on a number of groups Scottish Government group on FGM where we're studying the intercollegiate recommendations to understand how they can be applied to Scotland so I think awareness raising is key I think I would welcome anything that the committee can do to continue to drive awareness continue to highlight the issue that is unacceptable in our society and that is criminal behaviour and actually as a society but you know we are going to challenge address and hold people to account for those behaviours Can I ask you how long have the police been aware of FGM not just police Scotland but police before the the measures to police Scotland? I think you have to go back to the 1985 legislation so we would have an awareness certainly in 1985 of that legislation so we would have had some level of awareness I think that through those kind of 28 years 29 years that the level of awareness in line with other agencies in line with society in line with you know conventions, United Nations conventions etc awareness has increased so for a significant number of years we would have had a level of awareness And has the previous organisations, police organisations been as strongly focused as yourselves and adamant that it is child abuse and we're really keen to actually do something about it Sorry, did you see other organisations or other Like the police before police Scotland? It was dealt with under an Act West committee so it was treated seriously I think there's a real opportunity in moving to police Scotland to drive out standards there's an opportunity to revisit how we do our business an opportunity particularly around about child protection and what we're doing that there's an opportunity about consistently measuring on our base violence force marriage and FGM and we've changed procedures so I think those have been clear improvements we have introduced a force marriage protection register within the police so we get you know that's how we know we had these 14 incidents affecting 16 children nationally so we've got better recording mechanisms we've introduced a vulnerable person's database which is not just about on-abase violence it's wider it addresses adult concerns, child concerns domestic abuse, hate crime, youth offending so this national database will capture our concerns around about female genital mutilation as well so there's there's certainly merit in those national procedures and processes that'll contribute to our understanding of the extent and prevalence of FGM that's reported to the police and I definitely don't doubt Police Scotland and the previous forces commitments to actually eradicate this horrendous practice but what has been the barrier or the the gulf between yourselves and other organisations to since 1985 not to have actually had any criminal convictions for it? I think there is a number of reasons I think and I think one of the fundamental reasons is entrenched in affected communities it happens behind closed doors it happens it's a form of inter familial abuse often without a plethora of independent witnesses it happens out with the country on occasion victims are children who are disempowered who are in a very vulnerable situation often the parents actually love their children the children are loved by their parents however there is this one-off event of extreme violence that that is unacceptable all those issues combine to make reporting very very difficult for a child affected there's a reluctance within communities where it's practiced in to expose that because it's an entrenched practice so there are there are a real number of barriers and perhaps in 1985 when the law came into force perhaps our understanding was that actually we'll introduce a law and that will solve the problem clearly that's not the case you know and we're seeing that now enforcement and law enforcement is one part of that solution to FGM thank you very much both of you for coming along do any other committee members have any questions no thank you very much we will now suspend the meeting briefly to let the witnesses go on to organise ourselves for the next session thank you we now move to the second agenda item she's going to make man msp will provide an update on disabled access to the Glasgow commonwealth games 2014 and feedback from a meeting held in the third of June where myself and Siobhan met with david grievberg the chief executive of Glasgow 2014 can i now invite Siobhan to speak please the meeting that we had was very productive obviously as you know we had concerns regarding the transport arrangements that we were already given and so the venues in particular at Celtic Park and at Hamden and about the spaces that were left for blue badge holders specifically and obviously the concern was that those with additional needs and not necessarily blue badge holders would not be catered for and i have to say my opinion is after after the meeting that that's not the case that Glasgow 2014 have been working since the start of last year so January February on a programme of how they can deliver the games for everyone and make it accessible not only for those with a disability but for the elderly for for those people who may be taking a pram or a buggy or have lots of children that have to go there and the all volunteers that have been recruited by Glasgow 2014 have had additional training and so they will be aware of what to look for when people are using public transport if they see someone struggling as they're walking to the venue wherever that venue may be that they can then ask them certain questions and have an alternative route in place for them there was also specifically the 160 volunteers who have been given additional training and so they will specifically be at the venues so that people can refer on to them if they can't deal with the particular problem that they experienced and I mean one of the things that came up in discussion was what if you break your leg a few weeks out or to whatever it may be that you might not necessarily have highlighted that that would be a concern for you but again the view was of the committee that we met that they will be able to cater for that and I think what was coming over very very strongly was yes they had accessible tickets when you booked online and or on the phone and they asked those questions but for those of us who may have been confused about that and I certainly raised that that did that mean that that was just if you had a blue badge or would that mean the rest of your party would you be separated for them and from them at the games that's clearly not the case they're trying to keep everyone together as much as possible in fact they said that if you had a carer that they were getting a free ticket with you to go there but even if you don't have an accessible ticket when you receive your tickets now in the booking pack you can then phone the booking line and suggest that you may have additional needs not necessarily with the ticket but walking to the ground whatever that may be and they would give as much practical information and help as they could the other thing I think to mention was the traffic management plans because I had raised that specifically about muddle obviously in the train station that's being used there and and obviously the flow of traffic coming through they said that they would work with the traffic management plans and local authorities in those instances they didn't foresee any problems at the moment but if anyone had concerns that they can flag them up as as go in and they will try their best to address them as we continue before before the game starts so for me the impression wasn't that this was a final thing they have come up with their plan and they're not prepared to move it if there are additional concerns they will look at those things and continue in best practice I think what was coming across strongly was that they've seen this as a legacy as well for they've learned from the Olympics, they've learned from the Paralympics, they want all venues to be accessible going forward so that anyone can use sporting venues we spoke about toe cross swimming pool and how they have adapted that for disabled use going on and how that should be the benchmark for the rest of the pools in Scotland to be used with the dignity and frankly that they're shown in and obviously convener you raised the issue about the elderly using that and obviously going forward about how in our growing health needs that people are asked to be using swimming and various other things so how accessible will that be and and the chief exec thought that that could be the legacy of the games also and that they would try and share best practice where possible but yeah I think that we were there okay thank you very much yeah I mean we did find the meeting really really informative and they seem to have sort of preempted every sort of possibility of problems concerns and and Siobhan was really good because she spoke from her own point of view of also applying for tickets as well so that was great for us because we could sort of walk in her shoes so to speak going through the whole process so yeah and I think there'll be a great legacy hopefully left particularly when we're talking about the swimming pools as well and the facilities that they put in so that people can actually use them without drawing attention to themselves and and keep themselves healthy so thank you very much for one join me would you like to ask a question yes thank you and I don't know if I'm meant to clear an interest I'm actually a volunteer at the games a Clyde side as is termed so that's given me the advantage of having been through some of the training and a lot of that was very positive I mean we had discussions for example you know some people in a wheelchair like you to be at the same level as them when you're speaking to them and some people don't like that when you're speaking to them so you know we've been at that kind of level and actually discussing being sensitive to people and so on which I think has been helpful another one that came up was there expecting a lot more children at the venues than you would normally get and families will be able to bring prams not take them right into the venue but have a place in the perimeter where they can be left so things like that that I might not have expected I mean one of the points Siobhan that you make is that information was available and there's just a slight question over that because if they've made information available and then people haven't kind of taken it up could there be problems kind of on the day I mean actually met a volunteer who had made it clear when he was initially interviewed that he had a disability but when he came along to one of the training events he hadn't highlighted it and they hadn't kind of picked it up so I'm just wondering a low information is available I just wonder if they were able to reassure you that people you know they felt people were taking it on board I mean I think that was one of the points I made that it wasn't clear when you were on line when trying to book your tickets what was accessible and what what did that mean and having received tickets now I'm not quite sure that if we hadn't had that meeting that I would have known specifically what to do so they said that they would look at different ways of how they can do that and not necessarily on the website either because not everyone has access to the computer so I was reassured however like anything there is still a concern over that and I think the backup was that the training that you and others have had would be sufficient to do that now you'll know better than I if that is the case I suppose we'll only know when it's taken place but I wouldn't think there was any complacency in the meeting we had every concern that we raised would be addressed is what I got back and that they will continue that dialogue so if you still have concerns over that I'm sure that we can raise that and highlight it with them again but certainly yeah I thought they did or isn't it? We're very very keen to if there's any issues that we can bring up that they're really keen to address it's not a line drawn in the sand they will keep the review and updating their systems and procedures accordingly? I mean I was I'm positive very positive about the games and I mean I think the venues it looks like are going to be very well staffed because you've got full-time paid staff, stewards and things and you've got the volunteers as well and that should hopefully because inevitably things will come up people take ill at the time that will be hopefully handled well and just the other point I noticed from your report that they're going to they're given undertaking to provide the committee with human resources figures and inequalities and so on which is good I just wonder if that will include the kind of background of people who are volunteering and involved you know that have we really got a cross section of society involved in volunteering from both better off and less well off backgrounds? We can certainly ask for that and I think we did ask at the time a general question but yeah I mean Margaret certainly led on that I am and they said that they would look in and go and go back to the HR department to ask the questions because they didn't have that information with them because obviously they were dealing primarily with the accessibility issue so they said that they would look at it and see how they came across the questions because Margaret had also asked about the volunteers and specifically young people who are volunteers well what happens after the games if they've got particular skills will they be referred to certain companies who are looking all the be job squares et cetera and how will that be highlighted and again the chief exec said that yes that's what they were hoping to do and because obviously the company is now winding down as goes on 2014 because obviously the game well will be taking place and over quite soon so they're winding down but they hope that everyone who has who has a skill can be referred on and but certainly they said to be come back but as I said Margaret done that as convener. I mean that's a good point as well because yesterday there was that to the youth link event and I was speaking to the scouts now for example they're not allowed to have a list of the volunteers and they were quite hopeful that maybe some of the volunteers would then want to go on and help the scouts longer term so that I mean I accept that maybe the information can't be given to the scouts but you know maybe the scouts or and other groups would be able to kind of send in information which could then be disseminated to the volunteers. I think you probably will be able to sort of comment on this as well that the benefits and the experience and the skills that the volunteers are actually gaining by doing this during the Commonwealth Games is fantastic experience for them to actually put on their CVs and help them to move into employment if they've been unemployed for a certain period of time and that is something yeah that is something we've got to make sure that we can capture that that at the end of the the Commonwealth Games in their volunteering period they just don't drop off an edge and go back into being unemployed and signing on again that they are actually moved on into through their choice training employment or further education. And therefore that's partly why I'm asking you know how many unemployed people today actually get as volunteers can we learn from that in the future. Yeah we'll get that information. Thank you. Anybody else get any questions? No no oh John, John Finnie. Just thank yourself Siobhan and John for that input it was very helpful and I think it's certainly the back to our previous item it's the attitudinal change that might be built into some of these things that will reap rewards in the future so thank you for that. I think as well I will say thanks to Siobhan as well because she made it really very sort of visual for us and describing what it was like when she was actually applying for tickets and the issues that she came up against which then gave them the opportunities to explain really clearly that the systems and procedures they actually had in place to sort of deal with any of the issues so that was really good so thanks very much. Okay so we'll now move on to agenda three is consideration of a response from Scottish Government on the gypsy travellers in care and where gypsy travellers live inquiry. We'll also consider correspondence from the stakeholders which is paper three. We're asked to discuss whether we want to request proposed timelines from the Scottish Government for the working groups and whether to request further information in the proposed framework for gypsy travellers accommodation and whether we want to look at a later date when we would like to seek further evidence from stakeholders look specifically at timelines proposed. Anybody get any comments they would like to make? John? Well my frustration knows no bounds on this issue so I'll be very very brief. I would think you will find it challenging to get any meaningful engagement from some of the stakeholders who are sick to death have been asked questions giving answers and then being ignored so I would just encourage some genuine action from the people who've received this report because nothing has changed and I primarily attitudes haven't changed at all. Christian? It may be a good idea to have Cozler and seeing how we can sort out the problem of local authorities we see that in Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire which seems to have a lot of problems there and it doesn't seem to be able to kick in the long grass or maybe taking practice measures which are not helping at all so it may be a good idea to have a wide view of the local authorities and see if Cozler will be happy to come and speak to us about it. John? I have to say I echo these views I'm very disappointed that you know we're possibly talking a further delay of two years when I thought it had been widely agreed that there was a need for more sites I know it's a sensitive issue but I just find it incredibly disappointing that this is the case. On the reports that we have received back I think the frustration is that there is no time frames and I'm pleased that we are going to ask about them because I think we've given long enough to see what meaningful engagement is going to take place and I think that Meacop have highlighted the fact that they have a gypsy traveller working group now with no gypsy travellers on it. I mean I think that's incredible that we're at that stage and I don't see how the Government or Cozler or anyone can think that that's a good and meaningful thing to do. I think it's a slap in the face actually to all those who have worked in both reports who have given evidence to this committee and I think it's shocking that we're going down the same path as we have over the last decade in this Parliament. The other things are when there's an update as in the report when they talked about handheld records you know there's no information as to why that's the case that so some people said that they wouldn't work therefore it's not going to happen but who are the people what was a meaningful engagement how did that go about did we listen to both sides of the argument you know there's no evidence as to why that is the case and they also in the government report speak about the children and young people bill well it's now being enacted so so when are we when are we using things what are the time frames going forward because they speak about it coming forward and they hope for it well it's now in place obviously it's just in place we wouldn't have expected that piece of legislation to bring about great changes at this time but what are the time frames going forward about that piece of legislation and not simply use it as a headline thank you very much alex entertain by john's comment a minute ago where he talked about two years been an unacceptable timescale two years is a blink of an eye in the way this has been dealt with up to now the there is that a serious problem highlighted by this and what has gone before it for the whole time this parliaments existed and possibly before that there is a desire to follow the accepted route that we will consult we will include we will do all that things and we round the circle so often that i think it becomes clear that it's not working i think what this needs is leadership and what we need to do is encourage those who are in a position to demonstrate that leadership to do so now that will involve a timescale we need to to try and set the timescale on this but i i would like to see a government minister allow this to come to the top of their entry and stay there for a while rather than be buried understand that shona robison is now the minister with this responsibility uh she's got a number of responsibilities but the commonwealth games will soon be over uh and i would like to challenge shona to make this her next priority after that so anyone else i agree with that sentiment as well as bringing the causal here i think we should bring the the cabinet secretary um as with all things timetable wise it would have to be in the autumn but i think there would also be value in announcing well in advance that that invitation was there so that it's something that both she and hopefully cosla would have in their diaries and would have as a focus for for action to get something at least achieved before then so that they can come to the committee and point to at least some movement from their respective areas of responsibility would you be happy with if we initially wrote to the government and cosla asked them to send his details of their timelines and then also bring them in to speak to them yeah so send out the letter just now and we'll then bring them in after recess yeah agreed okay um that's us isn't it oh yeah agenda four um is a discussion on petition pe 1372 by friends of the earth scotland an access to justice in environmental matters which is paper four taking into account the work done by the justice committee relevant to this petition i'm asking you to consider whether we should close the petition or take another course of action john finnie thank you convener i think this was um the artist convention or reference there to appeared at one of the very first um i'm seeing shavon who's been here i think with me on the committee throughout that period um items that that came to this committee and it has been batted around now it will be a matter of fine judgment whether there is compliance in some instances and not in others and it's entirely right to see a lot of those work um would appear to be addressed by the um justice committee similarly you could have said the important item we had today female gem mental isolation is a is a crime so that would be the justice committee too but i think there is a role for this committee and uh i think prior to making a decision on it i would like us to uh write to the scotish government asking whether they believe there is compliance how they would evidence that compliance if there isn't compliance where the shortfalls are and how they seek to address that um and significantly the party of government had as a manifesto commitment a commitment to an environmental court so i think similarly it would be interesting to know where that matter it does sit this came to was directly referred to in the justice committee's report on court reform where the the justice committee did say they would welcome or that that legislation would facilitate an environmental court now that doesn't appear to be on the agenda we did write um to to the minister about or that was addressed in the response to the stage one report but i think this committee has an obligation to look at the wider aspects if you like the non-judicial aspects but how it affects the much used term access to justice and i think if we were to write on the specifics that i outline that we could make an informed decision thereafter i just entirely agree with john i think john it has been gone um from from the very first days of of this committee in in this session of parliament and and i think for our committee not to have looked at it in its entirety i think we'd be wrong before closing the petition and writing to the scotish government is what i had wrote in my notes also so so i fully back john in his proposal christian i'm not particularly in argument with john on this one i see that it was in the justice committee as it was talked about and um the government did answer that it should maybe taken by an environmental committee because it's high in the justice environment i don't know really how does it sit in this committee but what do you mean? John Finlay? Well it is um it is the the equality of the opportunity to challenge decisions so for instance the ability of a small community to take on a multinational about an issue and where that sits um but you know whatever has gone on other committees we don't we don't have anything here about that i'm giving you my interpretation of events there and i think we meet you know if the desire is to close the loop from this committee's point of view then i think there is no harm in securing that information first and then we can have a debate thereafter john mason yes i mean i don't have any problem with us asking about or writing about whatever we're going to do i mean i think when i read the figure and i mean i suppose coming from finance background you know as soon as i see more legal aid possibly going to one group i wonder does that mean there's less legal aid going to another group and obviously people like homeless in that area already there's an issue sometimes people not getting the legal aid that they feel they should so i think that that would do i would just flag that that was one of my concerns other comments no we'll take away the arms if we've got to be very careful you know some people for example in Aberdeen would say that's a balance went in the wrong way when we're talking about where you do pr so you know it's in both ways like john said i'm saying nothing because i agree with christianne and i think if i said that publicly it might weaken his case John Finnie no i think it's an interesting discussion because of course it does throw the whole question of budgets open and you know what what what a quality impact assessment has been made about the budgetary allocation for legal aid i absolutely agree when it's a fundamental thing that we have to wrestle with every day at this place is if you've a fixed budget then it's competing demands but then there still is and we would as a committee expect there to be evidence as to how one demand trumps another demand and i don't see any difficulty for the committee or indeed the government outlining the position we'll be happy to go along with john finnie's suggestion that we write to the government ask for an explanation and then we decide when we get the reply back what decide what we're going to do do we close or do we do further action yes that's lovely thank you very much that's confirmed the final item oh no that concludes the actual public part of today's meeting and our next meeting will take place on thursday the 14th of august and now suspend the meeting to move into private thank you