 We are live. Good morning, everybody. This meeting will now come to order. Welcome to the virtual meeting of the Durham Historic Preservation Commission on this first day of March, 2022. My name is Matt Bouchard and I am chairman of the commission. This commission is a quasi judicial board of record and as such, all testimony would be recorded under this procedure. This procedure, our meeting today will also be live streamed on the city's YouTube channel. The proceedings of this board are governed by the zoning laws as recorded. As such, please note the steps we have taken to ensure that each party's due process rights are protected as we proceed in this remote platform. First, today's meeting will be conducted in accordance with North Carolina general statutes chapter 166 a section 19.24, which allows for remote meetings and quasi judicial hearings during declarations of emergency. Second, each applicant on today's agenda was notified before being placed on the agenda that this meeting would be conducted using a remote electronic platform. Every applicant on today's agenda has consented to the board conducting the evidentiary hearing on their request using this remote platform. We will also confirm today at the start of each evidentiary hearing that the participants in the hearing consent to the matter of proceeding in this remote platform. If there's any objection to a matter of proceeding in this remote platform, that case will be continued. Third, notice of this meeting was provided to the applicants and to the public in multiple ways, including signage posted on site, notification letters mailed to all adjacent property owners informing recipients regarding the remote platform and a general announcement via our website informing the public of same. The notices for today's meeting advised the public on how to access the remote meeting as the meeting occurs. Individuals wishing to participate in today's evidentiary hearings were required to register prior to the meeting. Information about this registration requirement along with information about how to sign up to participate was included in the mailed notice letters sent to each adjacent property owner. This information was also included on the board's website. The public was advised to contact the city immediately in case of objection to the evidentiary hearing or to the remote meeting platform. Two cases are anticipated to proceed today in which the city has been contacted by an individual with an objection to the case or to the matter being heard in this remote meeting platform. All individuals participating in today's evidentiary hearings were also required to submit a copy of any presentation document exhibit or other material they wish to submit at the evidentiary hearing prior to today's meeting. All materials that the city received from the participants in today's cases as well as a copy of city staff's presentations and documents were posted online prior to this meeting. The agenda in all materials to be discussed today may be viewed at any time during today's meeting by visiting the web link for today's agenda via Durham's agenda center. Finally, all individuals who registered to participate in an evidentiary hearing on today's agenda as well as all city staff participants were emailed a witness oath and consent to a remote hearing form prior to today's meeting. Any individual planning to testify or submit evidence in an evidentiary hearing was notified that they must sign the oath form prior to today's meeting. We will also reaffirm everyone's oath on the record at today's meeting. Are there any members of this board that would have any conflicts of interest with regard to the cases before us today? Hearing none, seeing no raised hands. Are there any board members requesting an early dismissal today? Thank you, Commissioner Fieselman. As chair of the historic preservation commission, I'd like to remind everyone that our quasi-judicial hearings function similar to a court proceeding. Staff will first present an overview of the case and then the applicant will have an opportunity to present their evidence. Opponents, if there are any and we have been informed that there will be opponents for two cases today, may then present their evidence and the applicant may then present a rebuttal. Board members will refrain from questions or comments until each speaker has completed his or her presentation. Testimony should consist of facts each witness knows directly, not hearsay. Evidence already presented need not be repeated. All witnesses who have signed up in advance will be given the opportunity to speak and their testimony will be recorded. The board will vote on each case after the presentation of all evidence pro and con concerning that case. All decisions of this board are subject to appeal to the board of adjustment and then to the Durham County Superior Court. Please feels so. Chair of És�古 knocked home. Please take the attendance of the commissioners who are here today. Chair bouchard. Commissioner Dan? Commissioner Bairy? Commissioner B gospel. Commissioner Hamilton? Commissioner Calhoun? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Here. I did not hear you read the names for commissioners Johnson or Craig. Yes. So commissioner Johnson sent an email this morning and due to a scheduling conflict, she says she will not be able to attend the meeting today. Okay. And then Craig. I was actually Carla Rosenberg. I was actually going to announce some news regarding Mr. Hamilton. He, yeah. When we get to the item. I'll let you know. But he won't be attending today. Okay. And with apologies, I didn't hear. If Katie was here or not in them. Yeah. So it looks like today we have six. Okay. She didn't say present. Okay. Great. Thank you. Thank you. Commissioner. You have been forwarded an agenda to today's meeting. And specifically I'll reference the version of the agenda that Carla Rosenberg sent us all via email on Wednesday, February the 23rd, about 1040 in the morning. It is slightly adjusted from the initial agenda that had been sent to us previously. Would anyone like to recommend any adjustments to the agenda, or would you like to recommend any adjustments to the agenda? Well, I think you're still on mute. My tool bar disappeared. So I couldn't unmute myself. I apologize for that. So I do have some adjustments to the agenda. Okay. One, the protocol for work without a C away. We need to do a little bit more research on that. So I'd like to shelf that for another month. Possibly next month. Okay. And I would like to make an announcement prior to the approval of minutes. Do that as the next item. Okay. Great. And that's it. Thank you. Commissioners, along with the agenda that Carla sent us on the 23rd. January 11th to commission meetings. January the 11th and February the first. Let's start with the January 11, 2022 draft minutes. Does anyone have any adjustments to the draft minutes that they would like to recommend? Quick question. Carla, did you say you want to make an announcement before we approve minutes? You know, it honestly, it doesn't. We could do the minutes first. Let's just continue the minutes and then I will make the announcement after the minutes. My apologies, Carl. I wrote it down underneath the minutes. We'll do it right after the minutes. Again, commissioners, any suggested revisions. To the January 11, 2022 minutes. Seeing no hand raised hearing. From none of my fellow commissioners. I have a motion please to approve the January 11, 2022 minutes. Motion to approve the January minutes. Thank you. Commissioner Feeceman. Can I have a second please? Second. Any goals be. Thank you. Vice chair. Goals be. Thank you. Commissioner Calhoun. Clerk Holmes. Roll call. Please. All right. Chair Bouchard approved. Commissioner Dan. Who? Commissioner DeBarry. Commissioner Feeceman approved. Vice chair. Goals be approved. Commissioner Calhoun. Motion passes six to zero. Thank you. Clerk Holmes moving on to our February 1, 2022 draft minutes. Do any of the commissioners have any suggested revisions to that subsidence. Okay. Seeing no hands raised hearing. No objections to the minutes. Thank you. Commissioner Calhoun. Please have a motion to approve the February 1, 2022 minutes. Motion to approve the February minutes. Thank you. Commissioner Feeceman. Second, please. Second. Thank you. Commissioner Dan. Clerk Holmes. Chair Bouchard approved. Commissioner Dan. Who? Commissioner DeBarry approved. Commissioner Feeceman. Okay. Vice chair. Vice chair. Vice chair. Vice chair. Vice chair, Vice chair Gillespie. Approved. Commissioner Calhoun. Motion passes six to zero. I just want to ask. So for the. January minutes, the motion was commissioner Feeceman. It was seconded by Gillespie or commissioner Calhoun. I think vice chair. Gillespie came in first. Okay. Okay, before we proceed to swing in of the witnesses, I will turn it back over to Carla Rosenberg for an announcement. Thanks, Matt. So I sadly have some news of departures from the commission. First of all that we did receive a letter of resignation from Mr. Tom Krieger. So he is resigning effective. And so we are going to be advertising an attorney position with the county. So if you know anyone, feel free to refer them once I send out the link to that. And then I also have the side news about Jonathan I'll let him share directly since I haven't received an official notice yet but Jonathan, would you like to share your news as well? Thanks Carla. So I need to regret for me also resigned from the commission. It's a technicality. I'm going to be a dual resident of Durham and Tel Aviv. And most of the month I'll be in Tel Aviv so probably about a week a month in Durham. And that makes me less of a resident of Durham and not enough probably to fulfill expectations from a commissioner on the store preservation commission. So regretfully I have to do that. I think that this commission is really important for the city. I was really honored to be able to serve on it for a few years now. I hope that you continue doing the amazing work that you're doing I know that with Carla and all staff you have an amazing team here and we need we need to keep Durham with its soul and history. While we continue developing and in the fast pace that is being developed right now. So, again, I know that Durham is in good hands. I'll be continuing to watch the commission meetings from the other side now, and probably continue applying with the few buildings downtown coming up soon too so I'm not leaving you but not going to be on the same side of the desk with you. Thanks again and sorry and regretfully have to do it. And this is effective by the way it's got I'm going to resign officially. And the next week. Jonathan, you are and have been such an important voice on this commission. You've, you've come with an open mind, but with a critical eye, and that perspective is going to be missed and you're going to be missed. Just as a person, you've been terrific to work with. So I take it then today is your last meeting with us. And we certainly look forward to hearing your perspectives today, and wish you the best of luck, going forward. Jonathan, also just you've been so the energy that you bring the passion commitment and such a thorough eye to all the cases it's, it's really been a pleasure to have you. Absolutely miss you. Jonathan, what is sort of your role on the commission. I know Tom we're going to be replacing an attorney position what is Jonathan's position on the board of real estate real estate. So hopefully we'll have someone that will Carla will speak with soon or should talk to Carla that has a historic preservation of historical architectural historic masters degree historian master degree and also she has also side of real estate I don't know what the the technicality or where word will fall and leave it to Carla and then hope she will let I know she will be very, she will fit in, but not my decision to make. Thank you. Great. And that is a city position as well. Okay. So what, what real estate experience or background you need to sit in the real estate seat. Um, you know, I haven't, I haven't researched the details on it I don't, I don't know that there are full descriptions of it. There's sort of the label real estate developer, I believe, but I can look into that and if we advertise the commission position, then I'll go ahead and put whatever requirements are in there so I can email that out to all of you, and we'll also have it, you know, of course posted online as the public announcement. Thanks Carla, and thanks Jonathan and fun doing this together. All right Jonathan this is going to be your last rodeo let's move forward here with the swearing in of all city staff that we presenting today's cases. Okay. Do you members of staff swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give in the public hearing proceedings for today's cases is the truth by your own knowledge or by information and believe. I do. Carla Rosenberg planning department I do. Before I introduce our first case. Commissioner. I'm sorry chair but you're probably need to take that to grace Smith I do just in case I speak. Thanks. I think we also need to backtrack a little bit. Clerk Holmes, you took a roll call vote and we did not hear from Commissioner Hamilton who now appears to be here. Now. All right, Commissioner Hamilton here. I got you. Thank you very much. All right, let us move forward with our first case first of two cases today. This is case number co a 2200. I'm sorry, I should have my glasses on. Let me try this one more time case co a 2200 001 12 01 Fayetteville streets. Is there anyone from any staff is there anyone of our commissioners who may have a conflict of interest in hearing this case. If not, then let us proceed with swearing in of anyone who plans to speak for or against the case. Do you start. This is Chris Pearson playing department. I just want to make an announcement to our attendees. We are trying to bring everyone in as panelists right now I'm trying to bring in Charles are in the architects, as well as Joel Jones. If you are receiving a invite for a panelist, please accept that invite. And if you're having issues, please use the raise hand button. Chris, I'm not receiving that notice. It should be just the attendees coming in right now. And I think we might have them in. Okay, they're coming in they're coming online right now. Okay, they're in. I think with the presenter speaking for the case. Yes. Do you swear or firm that the testimony you are about to give in the public hearing proceedings for today's case the truth by your own knowledge or by information and believe. I do. If each person could state their name and whether they agree. Charles Nicholson, I agree. Joe Jones. I agree. Mr. Thomas and can you give me your first name again please. Bob Tomlinson. Thank you sir. And Mr. I do. We're going to do the next one in order. I'm going to ask each one of the presenters if you consent to this hearing proceeding using this remote electronic platform and I'm going to go name by name. Mr. Nicholson. I do. Mr. Jones. Mr. Tomlinson. I do. And Mr. Miller. I do. Great. Thank you. I'm going to move on to this question. Hello, I'm from a staff summary. Carla. Carla Rosenberg planning department. Sorry, I need to share my screen. So this is case COA 22001. 1201 Fayetteville street modifications. The applicant is R&D architects represented by Charles Nicholson and his colleagues. County. It's located on the southeast quadrant of the intersection of Fayetteville Street and East Comstead Street, it's owned commercial neighborhood. And it's a contributing structure within the Fayetteville Street Historic District. It's the northeast quadrant. I'm not mistaken, I apologize for that, that's in this print. I'd like to, so the applicant is proposing repairs to masonry and application of waterproof sealants and water-resistant sealants as well, or repellents to replace trim around windows and then also to replace a handicap accessibility ramp and to convert an existing doorway into a fixed window, multi-light, and to remove a non-original porch area and convert to a plinth where some original steps previously existed. So I would like to introduce the staff report into the record and invite the applicants to present their case. And if you would like to give me a page number, I'm happy to scroll directly to that page if you have the PDF page number. Okay, thank you Carla. So I'll start with a little history here. The building in question here is the Stanford L. Warren Library. It's originally constructed in 1939. It's a significant building for the neighborhood in the Fayetteville Street Historic District. The building since the 90s has been suffering under water damage. It's a masonry building and it's basically in the flood plain, in the groundwater plain. So the water is coming into the building through the foundation and this has caused significant issues to the building and the county has had two previous efforts to try to stop this water from deteriorating the building and both of them have failed and that they just didn't take the waterproofing far enough to get it down to the very footing of the building. So in the 1990s, there was a waterproofing project to add some drains and to do some water below-grade waterproofing, which helped a little bit but it just pushed the water from one place to another. And then in 2004, there was some significant additions to the building. The building was renovated and the historic western entrance, which you can see on page... I moved on my page 17 of the PDF, Carla. So this was the historic entrance on the western side of Fayetteville Street prior to 2004. In 2004, it was renovated and the main entrance was moved to the south side, which you can see on the next page there. So this is now the current main entrance with handicap ramp. It provides the library with a functional plan in that they're able to have a lobby to have a circulation desk. There's adequate room as you enter the building there. Whether this addition was historically correct or not is not the case today. Our project is trying to solve the water intrusion issues in this structure. So the scope of work that we're proposing is to remove around the entire perimeter of the building the soil down to the footing of the building. So there's a two-story building. You're looking at the main story and below-grade is one story. So to get to the foundation, we have to remove some areaways, which are shown in... I'm not sure if we have a good photograph of those. I think if you go to page 15, the upper photograph. So this is the west elevation and behind the bushes at the ground level are areaways for some windows that are below grade. Those areaways are a big source of the water intrusion issues. So our project is proposing to remove those areaways to block in the windows that are below grade and apply a waterproof foundation system along with a kind of a belt and suspenders drainage system to remove the groundwater pressure against the foundation. We're also going inside the building on the lower level and applying a water sealant to the top of the floor slab so that we can essentially bathtub the building to keep the water from entering the building. The water issues have been fairly severe. Currently the building is vacant because of mold air quality issues. They've long since had problems with storing books in this facility just because of the high moisture levels due to all the water that's been flowing through the lower level. They've got multiple dehumidifiers running at all times in the building and still mold is appearing on drywall corners around doorways. Any place typically you'll see mold growing baseboards. So drying the building out so that we can maintain this structure for the future is an important part of the scope of work. In addition to the below grade waterproofing we are also having to remove that front balcony I guess is the best word for it. It's not really used as a balcony so that's again on that photograph 17 page 17 Carla. You can see this is the vestige of what was the main stair entrance to the building. The historic photograph is shown on page 14 on the bottom. The stairs were all removed as part of the 2004 project so they left this doorway inoperable. The county has installed a security door there that's currently just to keep people from breaking into the library from that side. They added the little railing so that if someone was on this landing they wouldn't fall off. So if you scroll back just to the top of that photo Carla you can see the railing that's been installed and you can see this door there with kind of the horizontal mullions on there that's locked to keep people off the balcony from the interior. So our project to be able to get the waterproofing on appropriately needs to remove that vestige of a stair and to be able to get the waterproofing tied against the building the foundation. So our project is proposing to replace that porch with a basically a plinth for the engage columns that are around the main entrance there and that is shown in one of our drawings about sheet 26, page 26 Carla. So the idea is to take to salvage as many existing bricks as we can from the existing porch to be able to rebuild a a plinth that is it's only four inches I believe depth. However it will visually support these these engage columns and and we're also going to replace the this security door with a window that is to mimic the the window as was originally designed in in the original construction drawings. So that this this window will appear and have an appearance as it was originally intended however it will not function as a door it will clearly be a window. Other changes to the building are we're we're doing waterproofing on the exterior of the above grade and I will my counterpart here Bob Thomason is the our above grade expert so I will hand this off to him to explain what he's doing what the plan is for above grade. Well thank you Charles um well again the above grade uh clear big basement mostly and of course as you can see in the drawing there you have highlighted the cast stone coping the cast stone pediment there's a cast stone um a tablature which of course includes the cornice and the frieze and the architrave and then there are cast stone bands around the several cast stone bands embedded within the masonry so there's actually you're the the brick the clay brick mostly particularly on the west elevation of the they are actually described those as face brick on the west elevate on the west wing and then you have what they're describing in the original plans as common brick on the east wing the face brick on the west wing are generally in very good condition the thing we don't know is the the brick walls or mass walls there is no drainage cavity within those walls as is typical for that time of construction so the water is resisted by so much water until to the point that it is saturated and then eventually dries back out these walls the thicknesses of the walls vary because they're structural walls the lower portion of the walls are thicker than the upper portion of the walls you can't cannot see any evidence of water penetration on the west wing because there's an interior finish of furring and and plaster walls fortunately there has not been enough evidence of water penetrating that damaged those however on the east wing where the interior walls are the brick of the walls that are painted there is evidence of water penetration through those walls however when you go outside and investigate those areas that are adjacent to where the paint is peeling internally there is no clear evidence of openings in the wall so the assumption is that over periods of time the walls are simply you know getting saturated with water and eventually that water comes inside and then of course when that happens it peels the paint internally so that's pretty much it so there's a lot of old penetrations anchors and things like that that are some pipes and items like that that are to be removed and then the whatever bricks deteriorated those brick will be replaced and there is on the west wing very little I think repointing of the maestri that will be required there is more of that repointing that will be needed actually at the roof level on the interior walls that really are not seen from the outside of the building but there is some deterioration of the maestri joints mostly on the east wing so again we'll be routing and repointing those joints with the mortar as described it will be a softer mortar to allow for the expansion of the contraction of the bricks over a period of time and any brick replaced of course will be matching the brick that is existing so that they does not change the appearance of the building the recommendation to apply a water repellent it is a repellent it is not encoding a water repellent I don't know if you this is basically a can of water repellent if you open it and I can show you if that was actually there I would show it to you it looks like water it's clear the water repellent is a silane material that is absorbed into the brick and into the mortar joint to the brick I don't know if you can see this but this is a sample I put together I was actually going to bring to the meeting but if you see the air at the top the side where the air is pointing from that point down to that side actually has this water repellent on there so you cannot see it it basically performs as a water resistant doesn't completely keep water from going in but it keeps water from literally saturating the brick and eventually then going to the inside of the building so that's really why I would recommend the water repellent on the basonry and then of course the restoration of the cast stone cornices the pediment and the stone bands have significant cracking deterioration literally I guess it's damaged due to weathering over the years and all those items will be repaired and again a repellent applied to those items also so the appears does not change and you would have a nice consistent look on those cast stone items also that's it you know bob there's there's one more item that we we missed because it's kind of halfway between above grade and below grade and that carla can you go to page 16 um so on the lower this is the uh actually the east side uh there's been a uh stucco panel applied to the the brick on on this side of the building um and bob you did we come up with a reason it was installed there there used to be an area way on this side there was an area way there and we believe that there was probably water uh proofing a there is some evidence there that there was a an asphalt based water proof material applied to a portrait of that wall and probably in lieu of excuse me carla page uh 18 on the lower side okay you can see some remnants of that um so the assumption is that to clean that off it would have been a very significant physical damage to the brick probably to the face of the brick so in lieu of removing that material they they put that precast uh or lathe mounted the stucco panel over that area around those windows along that east elevation so and yeah we're removing that as well uh to to be able to make sure we can get the water proofing appropriately applied below grade and the repellent above grade right and of course you can see the security screens that are there those security screens will be upgraded to actually be true security screens the uh the uh security screens that are there really not fast and significantly to resist easily being removed so um and then in addition to because of the the extent of the amount of renovation is going to take to be able to get down to the footing we're having to remove uh nearly all the landscaping on the site so we have one tree that we're able to maintain if you go to sheet 25 of the site plan um there's that one 14-inch oak that's on the north side that we're we're going to be able to save however the the remainder of the trees will need to come out because of having to cut down get down to 10 11 feet deep around the the perimeter of the building will require us to cut back clear to the sidewalk and beyond uh to have adequate workspace so we will be replanting all the we have that same planting plan that was planted in the 2004 project and we'll replace those trees with uh similar but smaller trees and I believe that is everything that we have so turn it back to you thank you very much um is there anything that Mr. Jones would like to add no sir I think uh Charles and Bob they they covered it pretty well great okay before we give the floor to Mr. Miller I will open the floor to any questions that the commissioners might have for the applicant today Jonathan commissioner dylan floor's yours thank you uh quick question uh in uh the construction drawing 1.0 it's mentioned that almost all exterior walls um I'm assuming it's the bottom parts are to be removed I did not see that in the application and not in the hearing now so I assume that to be removed does not mean the whole move uh the whole walls is that correct yeah we're we're going to leave the exterior walls all of them so what what what does it mean existing walls to be removed so we're removing uh there are uh these areaways which uh will be removed and not replaced so those are below grade uh light wells that that need to be removed to be able to get the waterproofing down to the um footing level which is below those areaways so those will be removed in their entirety because they're part of the problem for the water intrusion the water is following the the joints around those areaways to access the building and without removing them we're unable to waterproof the wall below the areaways we're also removing the handicap ramps the the the handicap practice no yeah that's part of the uh um application but so thank you for that clarification if I may uh Carla is that part of the uh possible motion did I miss that sorry um so I don't necessarily include every single detail so if that is considered to be an important um by all means add it to the motion sometimes I miss um otherwise our motions would be oh if you don't I think that I don't know maybe it's not important though but it's it's practically all the surrounding uh walls yeah I think that's a good point um and I think that should be added to the motion thank you I believe uh vice chair ghouls we wanted to ask a question uh yes um actually a follow-up to to Jonathan's question so the areaways are being removed um does are the windows at the areaways serving they higher than the areaways or is it gets the real question is any work being done to those windows so uh yeah good question the windows are below grade so that's why the areaways are needed so the windows will be filled in with a uh combination of concrete block and and the waterproofing um they're all actually in addition to the waterproofing we are adding a layer of insulation to to the foundation as well so that'll help improve with energy on the on that lower level um but yes the windows are being removed and infilled with concrete block okay and then effectively waterproofed and backfilled so we you will not see those windows ever again you will not see them you will see them on the inside there'll be a vestige um um today you can't see those windows either as you see in those photographs they're not visible and because of the waterproofing issues most of the areaways are covered with plywood to try to keep rainwater out of them to to reduce the amount of water that's just draining into the basement okay um thank you thank you for clarifying that uh the second question is about the water repellent um is this are these products that you guys have used before is it uh what have been the effects of the brick does it give it glossy textures does it change the color um is it something you guys have tested on the building thus far and have has city staff seen any of that um i guess just getting more clarity than knowing that it's a clear when it comes out of the can uh would would be helpful the water repellent when it's applied it does not change the appearance of the water or the brick you cannot tell that it is there until you throw water on it and you see the water repels so uh it does not change the appearance of the brick or the mortar joints yeah and to follow up on that we we have used uh this product are very similar products on on several historic buildings um it would be old health building in downtown raleigh uh as we've applied it or recently at the Durham Bulls athletic park it's not a historic building but it's a brick structure we applied it on the entire building it you it's you just don't know it's been applied yeah we've had a lot of success with certain ones what what is the product the company and product and bob i'll let you go that it's a saloxane you're on mute bob you're talking to yourself bob bro you've been doing this for a couple years now i know well i was i was clicking on the wrong button so well you know as being a public project of course we have to specify more than one um the one that i held the can up earlier was uh by mcoke technologies it is a um they describe it as clear steel as a high performance hydrophobic silane sealer so basically the intent is that you have a high content of silane that is in any of the materials that we specify and that is the material that is absorbed into the brick that replies the water repellent characteristics of the product it is a i think the fancy terminology today is nano technology all that means is that it goes deeply penetrates into whatever it be concrete brick mortar whatever it might be to to provide that water resistance it is not waterproof it is designed to be on a vertical above great surface so it is not waterproofing it's a water repellent and it's yeah of course we don't you know wax cars anymore but uh that's what i would compare it to something that goes on that gives you protection that doesn't change the appearance of the substrate below parlor Rosenberg planning department um i would recommend that we obtain some cut sheets of the product selected both the water repellent and the water sealant um for the record um however whether it's approved or continued today that would be helpful um i also had a few questions as staff another thing is when the when the project starts you know we want we always just to back up we always do find a uh like up with the roof level we would go up with that roof level and we would apply some of the material uh to make sure that it does what we said it does does not change the appearance of the brick uh or any other substrate that may be applied to and now it suggests someone was sitting sitting staff carl i don't know if that's you or not getting the eyes on it okay um and i had some other questions as well um first of all um to know whether you had considered alterations to the building like other like any sort of infrastructure that would redirect the water from where it is saturating the brick and creating this water intrusion problem um you know one of the best practices would be to just try to eliminate the water problem at the source um so that's one question i had um another i had was um just getting clarification on the extent are you proposing to cover the every exposed brick on the building is it full extent um and then i the third i think i know the answer it's it's not removable that once it's absorbed it's it's there and it will never come off that was that's my third question well it will you know any water repellent like that uh it used to be you'd almost have to you know the older technology you almost have to apply like every five years and uh the newer technology it's you know 10 plus years before you reply it again so it is it is not permanent uh it does uh literally like anything that's on the exterior of the brick would uh age and technically wash away over a period of time and would be would be reapplied uh as as needed to maintain the building uh it is completely uh applied in a fluid form most of the time on a project where you do not want the material to go on any other windows or anything like that or plants or whatever uh it would be applied by a roller literally from bottom to top uh so that it flows to make sure you get full coverage and to answer your first question carla um so the we we did an extensive study before we came up with a design solution on um where where we're finding the water where is the water intrusion happening um the blue below great piece is groundwater there the uh the county had installed a groundwater monitoring well uh and it clearly the groundwater is sitting about right at the floor level of the basement so the footing is constantly in water and during um rain events water the groundwater level is about four inches above the floor level so that's adding considerable water pressure to the to the walls at their base um and then we've also looked at the part of the project we haven't talked about is is some roofing uh work that's being done to redirect the overflow drains to capture the water in a better manner and get it off the roof without having to run down the outside of the water on that on the west side there is an overflow drain that pretty much runs constantly if there's any rainfall at all so we are reworking the center of the roof um to so it'll drain better um and to reduce uh re-roofing a section of the roof to reduce leaks in that portion of the roof as far as keeping water off the exterior uh the there is without adding an overhang around the building there there would be no way to reduce that amount of the the rainfall the that's hitting the outside of the brick um okay that's that's that was our that that was our thoughts there yeah that's helpful to know that you had done some work in that area and obviously direct rain hit you can't prevent so can't stop that now and part of the uh and bob mentioned earlier the the the cornice uh the the stone a cast stone around the uh perimeter which does add does have a little bit of a effect of catching some water so it'll drip away from the brick itself um but that is uh in poor condition and and we are re-pointing those areas so that we can and um repairing those those damaged units so that uh so and applying the water repellent so that water does not soak into those uh sealant those joints and those units as much so that we can try to keep that water get it off the building quicker looks like Diane has a question yeah it's a follow-up really on the roof uh again that's new to me maybe i missed it is the work on what is the work on the roof does it include coping does it the coping does include the exposed the front entrance canopy so uh carlic can you go to page 23 that's the photograph of the roof and and bob i'll i'll let you describe the scope of the work on the roof well the the roof um there's only three areas the roof that are to be replaced the west wing the east wing roof and the lower center roof area the roofing on the additions that were done in 2004 will not be replaced so that's just basically a cost-saving effort the existing cast stone parapets on on the top of the wall the west wing will be maintained just like they are no appearance change there is a current metal coping cap that was not original to the building on the east wing parapet walls so because maybe they have been established as being historic those coping caps we will be putting new metal coping sheet metal coping to replace the existing sheet metal coping on the east wing in one i'm sorry is that did i miss that was that part of the application the material at least for the coping whether it's or just it's it's replacing like with like i think if you go to page 16 on the top image you can see it's hard to see there but at the top of that is that the metal coping that'll be replaced with the same coping and and then if you go to the page 15 you can wow yeah there we go you can kind of see that the the cast stone there then that's being maintained so that there you can see the two side by side i'll promise you the metal that we put on there will look a lot better and last a lot longer than the metal that's there on the east wing the current metal is is it is just uh it's it's not kind of our coated it is rusting it is literally held in place with asphalt mastic uh basically glued in place otherwise i would have probably tried to remove that metal and actually bring bring it back to the original stone look but we just because of the condition of that stone what they've done to it it's best just to remove the existing metal and put new kind of our coated metal on there and ultimately the owner will select the color but basically it's it's currently a gray as it is and we'll make sure the owner selects whatever color that you like there thank you and this is commissioner hamilton are y'all putting in new foundation drains or anything like that in conjunction with the waterproofing or are you going to get down there and do like an exploratory figure out what the current drainage is so so we've already done the exploratory being we had a contractor out there and dug several test pits to find out what was going on we've also camera as far as we could get a camera to run down the lines to figure out where the lines are actually going um and basically what we found was nothing is really working that's there so we're replacing it with uh kind of a dual drain system uh on the foundation on top of the waterproofing will be a drainage board and on the bottom that'll be a system called a hydro duct which will pick up the water that's in the drainage board and take that away and then as a backup just because we know the amount of groundwater that'll be at the floor level we're running a a separate perforated pipe 18 to 2 feet in out from the footing level to that'll be slightly lower than the floor level and then continually to slope downwards till we can get it to be uh to the northeast corner of the building which then we'll take it out to the street so yeah we're trying to yeah it's a belt and suspenders it's it's an extensive waterproofing project any other questions for the applicant from any of our commissioners uh yes this is Andy close begin um keep clarify the extent of uh repair around the windows um I think maybe we were it was uh described by somebody else as uh replacing um well the existing wood at those palladium windows there's one on the south elevation and one on the north elevation of the west wing uh the existing wood um I would say is probably in the range of 70 to 80 percent deteriorated literally falling off the building um so the existing drawings are available to show the characteristics of that wood in the uh profile of that wood and uh so of course the existing profile is still there and all that wood is anticipated to be replaced to match the existing profile the windows themselves were replaced inserts were replaced uh in 2004 or actually maybe before that um uh and those windows are currently appear to be vinyl coated metal muntins uh and insulated glass but we'll only be treating only be upgrading the wood around the pruner okay um and the infill doorway is it of the same material as as these wind as wind up replacements or it's aluminum right that's correct it's an aluminum frame okay that's odd thank you commissioners any additional questions if not I'll ask just a couple of follow-ups um gentlemen are any of uh you or is anybody on your team a structural engineer uh we have not on the not on our witness here but we do have a structure engineer who's part of the project who is that structural engineer it's uh bill easterly a gardener i mean daniel and has mr easterly been uh consulted with respect to some of the issues that we've heard concerns about addressed today um concerns about uh the impact that the repellent mind have on historic masonry um and the potential that the masonry could be compromised over time as a result of the repellent um i do not know if uh bill is actually waiting on this particular project but he's worked with us on multiple historic renovation projects where we've applied uh waterproofing repellent or water repellents and uh he has had no issue with those but but just so i'm clear he has not been consulted on this project he he's been consulted about uh structural structural issues on the project and has has no issues with what we've i mean he's reviewed everything he's provided the design documents for uh all the the rebuilding of the found foundations uh for the ramps and he has he's had no concerns about the project um your precise question as we've asked him about the water repellent application uh i haven't asked him that precise question for this particular project although we've we've worked with him on many projects where we've applied it and uh he's never had any issue with it in the past thank you very much that's all i have if there are no other commissioners with questions i will ask if there is anybody else here to speak on behalf of the proposal seeing and hearing from none i will now invite um anyone who wishes to speak in opposition to the application uh to speak and i believe that would be mr miller oh i think you're still i'm sorry mr chairman uh it is funny we've been doing this for two years and we i guess we get lazy every time um my name is tom miller i'm president of preservation Durham and i wanted to clarify for the record that preservation Durham has no objection to the project if i may mr chairman um i did have a couple of questions that uh that the commission members questions uh raised uh i too have some concerns about the uh the water repellent uh and if i may ask them sure present your concerns then we'll return to the applicant once we have the list of those concerns all right thank you very much so my first question is this is a water repellent it does not uh completely keep the water out and and the concern that i have is what effect does the water repellent uh have on the ability of the brick it's applied to to to dry out and i'm a and i'm a little concerned especially about to those brick surfaces like the parapet uh where the repellent might be applied both inside and outside whether or not it might actually work to retain water um uh and it may be exposed those surfaces to spalling or or freeze thought thought problem uh and then also with regard to the repellent is uh if you did not use the repellent is there a practical alternative uh was it considered uh and uh and why was the repellent chosen over the alternative if there is one and then finally uh mr chairman concerning uh the groundwater drainage system i'm assuming that we're going to have a drainage system that will be installed that will achieve kind of an optimum water flow to self clean it to clean itself out and i'm assuming that the slope on the property is such that these drainage lines will ultimately achieve the surface of the ground at some point near that northeast corner and then where does the water go that is collected from a building of this size uh does does it go on to the surface somewhere i heard you say it goes to the street but uh it where does it go then and is there any kind of catchment to slow the the flow those are my questions thank you mr chairman thank you mr miller i will turn it back over well i guess i guess to follow proper protocol um i should ask any of my commissioners my my colleagues if they have any uh questions about your questions um before i give the applicant a chance to speak okay i'm going to turn it back over to uh mr nicholson or anybody else who would like to speak in response to those three questions so i will refer to bob on the on the water repellent because passed in with that uh that issue so bob you want to answer that question oh well they again the water repellent is exactly what it is it repels water it does not impede it is not encoding uh the breathability or uh of the of the masonry of any form so it simply resists the amount of moisture that is allowed to enter the masonry so that it does actually dry off quicker uh there is so any moisture that currently would be in the masonry um is not resisted from drying out to the exterior whether it be on the cast stone or whether it be on the clay brick masonry and the mortar joints um the alternate would be to be to clean the building more frequently which i don't recall that the exterior that building has been cleaned i don't it may have been done when they did the restorations in 2004 so we're now looking at 2006 we're looking at multiple years of exterior of soiling uh you can call it black soiling staining uh of the uh particularly the cast stone the brick doesn't seem to show it as much but the cast stone pediments courtesies uh and the uh uh are severely soiled at this time and uh there's you can't see it in the pictures but at the roof level on the top of those cast stone there's literally algae growing on top of those stones so again the more moisture that you can keep out the less of that mold or black soiling as they call it is going to have growth particularly north elevations because the quicker it dries out the less that you're going to have that growth on the exterior of the masonry thanks bob um and then the question about um the where the the capturing of the storm water at the foundation uh at the footing level uh carly if you go to uh sheet 25 the site plan so this project uh we spent some time to find an unchartered storm sewer pipe uh to zoom out in umsted street in the north of our project uh there in the street is a sanitary sewer uh you gotta zoom out a little further please yeah i see okay i have a different plan up sorry yeah go to sheet 24 that one showing it um so on the top there you can see that uh the limits of excavation there goes across the street to a storm pipe that we found uh there's an unchartered one but we had to have it camera to find it uh so we will be taking the below grade water directly into storm water um and and as far as being able to clean this in the future so the two pipes we're putting down there one of them will be a perforated uh pipe uh the the flexible perforated pipe which is difficult to clean the other one will be a smooth walled uh PVC pipe so we'll be that we'll be able to be cleaned uh and will inherently uh less uh less chance of it filling up with silt um because you'll get better flow out of it does that answer your questions tom uh yes completely thank you very very much um um uh uh mr chairman uh all of my questions have been answered and and i conclude my remarks by saying preservation derm has begun an examination of the uh preservation issues on the fable street corridor from essentially the freeway down to the north carolina central university campus this building is exceptionally important uh not only to the corridor but to the the history of durham and uh we're delighted to see uh this much attention being given to it um and uh we look forward to the time when the library reopens and we have no objection to the coa that's been applied for in this application mr miller thank you very much is there anybody else who wishes to speak either for or against this application i just want to say thank you to the applicants for putting in the work to help this building be a long-term asset in our community sounds like this is not an easy project and you've done a lot of diligence and how to care for it so thank you for that i am now going to close the public hearing uh so that we can have a discussion um among commissioners is there anyone who would like to lead us off i'll say um this annual sweet it's it's never a easy task to be able to do this we've had it gone to extreme like this on a couple buildings to help keep the water out so what i've heard are a lot of standards of practice that that we also applied to our buildings to be able to help with water intrusion so nothing nothing jumps out as concerns uh except for the uh area ways that um would be removed and the windows being infilled uh and and didn't know how the fellow commissioners felt uh about about that aspect of it thank you vice chair goes beat as any of any of our other commissioners want to address other um vice chair goesby's concern uh about the areaway walls and the infill of the windows or any other issues related to this application jonathan down um i agree with andy um commissioners both speak um the areaways and the windows uh are concerned but on the other hand i can't from what i'm hearing i can't really see another option and i think that they covered most of the options and that was and to do all this work in the end and have water under the building is not going to be very beneficial to anyone uh so it's between the two and as long as engineering and uh structurally it's sound uh i think we'll lose the element of the airways but uh but we gain the uh preservation of the building thank you commissioner day on anyone else and and will said jonathan too bad you're leaving so my only concern is is as reflected in the question um or series of questions that i asked um and it really arises from what we've seen here in the staff report about the potential for uh the water repellent to actually trap water the only testimony we have heard in this hearing is that that is not the case um and i think based on the weight of the evidence um that has been presented at this hearing um i think de facto my concerns been addressed i i i think i would have felt a little bit more confident um had the structural engineer been consulted uh to specifically address the potential impact of applying water repellent at all elevations um but again the testimony that did come in that we did receive was that and this was really in direct answer to mr miller's question uh that the repellent quote does not impede uh breathability of the masonry it just resists the amount of uh moisture um that uh that masonry might be uh that might that masonry might absorb and so based on the evidence that's been received uh i am satisfied um although i again just will note for the record i i would have been really satisfied if if we had the recommendation of a structural engineer saying that this was uh the right product in the right application any other commissioners and chair brujard i would i would add to that sometimes it's helpful to have a consultant who is an exterior we we use often use the phrase envelope consultant someone who specializes in exteriors who can comment on on that um particularly ones who have dealt with historic structures um to be able to say these are the products that we've seen successful or you know isn't even warranted um so i'll just add that in terms of future future projects and when this comes up again it's a great observation thank you so mr brujard this is mr de berry um the more the more we talk about our concerns around this uh this application of applying this stuff i'm aware of a project in chapel hill a much older building different it is brick largely but also some stucco and they had similar issues and they they covered it with something and it's been a number of years so this may be a newer product but they had a lot of trouble with spaul and with the surface of the brick chipping off because moisture was somehow getting in behind this protective coating and then popping you know the fascia of the brick off and it was a mess and so if this this stuff is better newer different technology um that's great but yeah i'd i'd love a second opinion or at least a confirmation that we're not going to have that problem here carlo rosenberg cleaning department i was going to wait till my recommendation to put this forward but i'll say now that you know there is the opportunity also to put a condition for staff approval staff will gain um some some insights from either national parks or service technology preservation services department um and or shippo um as to the products used if if the applicant is able to provide a cut sheet for that product um when he mentioned the name i i had not heard of it before um but we aren't wed to a particular product um but um shippo and tps would um be familiar with the products and their performance and so um i i would feel comfortable with the blessing of either of those departments um and going forward as would i carlo would with a condition be that not only the cut sheets for those um products be submitted but also that they'd be approved by one of these organizations you've just referenced right and can you give me yeah exactly what were those organizations again um so it's uh north carolina state historic preservation office they have a rehabilitation services division and then there's national park service which is over the shippos and they have a technical preservation services department and the tps is actually who wrote the brief that i believe i attached as attachment three um which specifically states to not um use water repellents which is why we're having this conversation um but as you know mr. berry said perhaps this is a newer product that um maybe performs differently from what is being referenced in in that brief i'm so on the uptake here carlo tps uh what's that technical preservation services i'm with it's a division of the national park service i'm with you thank you yeah the brief this angle the brief is kind of funny because you know it says not to use it then our other park where it says it might when it might be appropriate so there's a straight forward answer sometimes right and carlos does tps operate not only within the national park service but also within the north carolina state historic preservation office so they are the national park service is sort of the umbrella organization for the shippos the shippos receive their funding and and sort of their they're like each of the 50 states gets a shippo that is under the national park service okay and their tribal organizations as well for the purposes of potentially drafting a condition of course i'm going to ask the applicant if this is a condition that they can live with before we exactly and they would need to they would need to sign off on it as well on the actual document no doubt but in terms of the wording are we um suggesting the submission of cut sheets that need to be approved by the tps of the national park service is that the submission or yeah the submission of cut sheets for the products the water um repellent i personally am less concerned about the the sealant because it's underground and that is a recommended application for it but i think it would be good to have both those the the sealant and the repellent have cut sheets for those submit them or review by the nc uh historic preservation office or the technical preservation services unit of the national park service got it i will turn to the applicant and for the purposes of this question and the discussion reopen the public hearing um is the applicant um willing to accept a condition on approval of this application that would require the submission of cut sheets for the waterproofing sealant as well as the water repellent uh to carla for submission and approval uh to um the nc state historic preservation office for the tps unit of the national park service i'm speaking for joel here but uh i would say yes um i have quick clarification the below grade is not a it's a membrane not a not a waterproofing mastic or uh coating it's actually a membrane um and um and yeah no problems i mean we've we've used this siloxane uh slain uh water repellent on other shippo products uh we worked with mitzvah in the past and and and his folks so um yeah we can do that are you good with that joel yes sir yeah i got to take um take your expert opinion there so i'll leave it to to your um your intuition yes sir and i i had also like to um clarify that uh bob thomason is an envelope uh consultant uh r e i engineers that's what they do for living and uh so uh we do have an envelope consultant that is looked at this project extensively in fact he's the prime contract he's the one who's uh it was originally hired to to design this project and and we were brought on to to assist well i could say we have done multiple historic restorations uh the superior court building downtown wiley just a few years back uh you did significant restorations of those exteriors marble cleaning and then of course they had that nice yellow brick uh and uh the substantial brick replacement and water joint replacement then a water repellent was applied to the complete exterior that building excluding the marble stones but the clay brick basically did apply they have an application of water repellent saline saloxane will repellent applied thank you all very much for your willingness to accommodate that condition um if there is anyone else who would like to make any comments uh please let me know otherwise i intend to ask carla for a staff recommendation matt this is uh chair gulf here chair tart excuse me um you also i saw you take some good notes there so i assume you might be reading a motion for us um that's the intent you you also have the removing all areaways and full and uh putting masonry in the windows and if i read that as um remove all areaways and walls associated with the areaways as shown on drawing cd 1.0 and infilling uh impacted windows uh with masonry would would that be sufficient that sounds fine okay and i guess the the other question i'll ask uh both of staff and of the commissioners is whether or not we need to make reference expressly to um any of the coping on the roof being replaced because right now that is not the possible motion either carla rosemary planning department i think it would be fine to to note it we we haven't heard it's not an original material um but since it was discussed specifically we could go ahead and state that non-original um metal coping will be replaced with new metal coping great carla may we have a staff recommendation sure carla rosember planning department staff would recommend approval of the application uh with the condition of um the of a staff review um of the products selected for sealing the lower levels and um the water repellent applied to the upper levels and i think the condition should also be worded to allow um we don't want to negate the entire coa just in case shipo warrant to approve it and we're we're assuming this is going to sail past shipo and it will be approved and um there won't be an issue but in the off chance that it weren't approved um to just say that if not approved then this uh this item will be removed from the scope and the rest of the scope can proceed imagine if that's the case why don't we leave it we do have an expert for envelope here this is just a suggestion but if we do it and i and i wasn't aware of that before we did hear an expert on envelope uh sealing can we do it as a courtesy if they can do it and we can have it so it's not part you know part of the coa um sorry the coa uh motion sorry what was your suggestion again to i'm suggesting not to add the an additional requirement for uh expertise on the envelope uh sealant because we have had heard we had heard from uh from a specialist on this and if i'm not if i'm understanding correctly yeah well staff's recommendation is to go ahead and get shipo's or nps's um blessing that it's just my recommendation and you all can make the decision that you want to parlor does that recommendation apply to the repellent or also to the waterproofing membrane that's been mentioned um i think i think the repellent is the of the most concern not specifically um what was warned against in the brief okay well i'm going to attempt a motion the Durham Historic Preservation Commission finds that in the case coa 2200 001 1201 Fayetteville street modifications the applicant is proposing modifications to a contributing structure an existing brick porch with railing and entry door neither original to the structure at the west portico will be replaced with a brick plinth one feet depth excuse me one feet deep and matching original bricks and a six light white aluminum framed storefront window within the same opening respectively all areaways will be removed walls associated with such areaways will be removed all is shown on drawing cd-1.0 with all impacted windows being infilled with masonry deteriorated bricks in areaways below grade will be removed in salvage for reuse and the new plinth and ramps existing handicap ramps not original will be replaced with new brick precast stone and concrete handicap ramps to match the color tone and texture of original materials on the structure and new emergency wall lighting installed waterproof coatings will be applied only to bricks below grade water repellent coatings will be applied to all exposed masonry surfaces original wood trim will be replaced with new wood trim cut to match in size form in details non-original metal coping will be replaced with new metal coping 11 street trees will be removed saving one oak on the north side of the building and new street trees three trident maples eight crepe myrtles planted therefore the conclusion of law is that the proposed addition and alterations are consistent with historic character and qualities of the historic district and are consistent with the historic properties local review criteria specifically those listed in the staff report and the Durham Historic Preservation Commission approves the certificate of appropriateness for case coa 2200 001 1201 Fayetteville street modifications with the following conditions one the improvements shall be substantially consistent with the plans and testimony presented to the commission at this commission hearing and attached to the coa two the improvements may require additional approvals from other city or county departments or state or local agencies the applicant is responsible for obtaining all required approvals relating to building construction site work and work in the right of way three a compliance inspection shall be performed immediately upon completion of the work approved here in and four the applicant shall submit to city staff cut sheets for the water repellent applicant intends to utilize for submission by city staff to the North Carolina State Historic Preservation Office or the technical preservation services unit of the national park service for their approval if not approved the water repellent shall be removed from the scope of work approved by the coa and the remainder of the work shall be permitted to go forward second chair gulsby or by chair gulsby we're going to have a roll call vote please all right chair blouchard approve commissioner dan commissioner debari approve commissioner fissleman vice chair gulsby approved commissioner hamilton approved commissioner calhoun motion passes seven to zero i want to thank all of you so much for your patience with this process i want to thank mr miller for his contributions as well um i think we had a robust discussion about some of the technical concerns and um i like the way those concerns are going to be addressed and thrilled that y'all are moving forward with this project that's going to preserve such an important asset on fable street so thank you all very much and good luck with the project thank you all for all your attention to detail here it's appreciated from the design side as well thank you very much thank you fellow fellow commissioners that went a little bit longer than anticipated but i think it was a good discussion um i would go ahead and uh propose a five minute break in return at 1045 agree see you back here shortly thank you hey matt are you there if cindy hoffman and jeff curts are available um we are trying to promote you as panelists and that is so that you can participate and then next public i'm worried i'm not going to get very deep into this case i want to ask you permission to just go ahead and be excused now is that all right yeah i i think that's fine my my sense is we will not have an opportunity to vote on this case before your 11 o'clock deadline today so that that that's fine okay great thank you and thank you everybody nice to see you sure i'm very sure and i know i'm okay i just had vital or okay now i'm just the beginning of the meeting but i'm just letting you know that i will be refusing myself from the next case okay so we still have a quorum correct we still have five i think we do amanda could you check yes okay so who is out so face on that is gone and commissioner hamilton you said you wouldn't be able to yeah i'll be refusing myself okay so one two three yeah we have five okay i believe our applicant is still well actually i think our applicant is here now miss hoffman mr curts good to see you and mr miller is still here tom if you could put your camera on when you have a chance just so we know that you're here i can't wait oh now i can't okay great okay i believe we have everybody back so we will now proceed with hearing the next case on our agenda that is case coa 2200 002 501 washington street and just so this is on uh the record formally uh before we hear from staff is there any one of our commissioners who may have a conflict of interest in hearing this case and chair richard commissioner hamilton i have a conflict of interest having worked on this project with my former employee thank you commissioner hamilton we still have with us vice chair willsby commissioner daon commissioner de berry um and um commissioner calhoun uh so those four commissioners um with myself being the fifth gives us a quorum and so we will continue uh clerk holmes if you could please uh administer the oath uh to miss hoffman uh mr curts and to mr miller all right do you swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give in the public hearing proceedings for today's case the truth by your own knowledge or by information and belief i'm miller i do sunday hoffman i do and i do thank you mr curts i'm going to go ahead and uh go one by one here by name uh do each of you consent to this hearing proceeding today on this remote electronic platform this hoffman yes i do mr curts yes i do and mr miller yes thank you all very much if we could have our staff report carla hey carla rozenberg planning department this is kcoa 22 0002 501 washington street demolition it's an amendment to previous application um the applicant is steward represented by city hoffman the owner is magnolia fire tower place l lc it's located on the northwest quadrant of the intersection of washington street and corporation street it's zoned downtown design support one um and it's a historic landmark not in a district it's the city garage and fire tower on the previous uh ceo a was for demolition of all um accessory structures and two additions on this property and this amendment is a new strategy for salvaging portions of the one of those structures and repurposing on the site so i'd like to introduce the staff report into the record and invite miss hoffman to present her case thank you i would just like to start with a quick introduction in just a recap of where we've been for uh everyone as a reminder we brought this case originally to uh the commission in october of 2021 and presented the demolition of the structures on this site at that time we were given a 365 day delay for the demolition of those structures with the primary concern being the employee's restroom is located on the site the 365 day delay was uh issued to give us time to work with preservation Durham to one address their overall concerns for the project the scale of the buildings and the architectural direction of it and two to work with preservation Durham to find a possible reuse for the employee restroom um since that time we presented several plans to them and it worked with preservation Durham to come up with a strategy for a reuse of the portion of the employee's bathroom on the site that we think is a good solution for it and that uh without speaking from mr. Miller that i think that we're all in agreement on the location the size and the scale of it um Cindy will present those plans to you in in just a few minutes uh but just to summarize again that this has been this is the result of several months of of coordination and cooperation between our design team of preservation Durham to come up with the strategy uh we'll continue to work with preservation Durham during this process one of the things that we're proposing is to place a plaque on the restroom structure and we'll work with preservation Durham on the language of that plaque to commemorate what the previous use of the building had been so that it is uh memorialized in the the new structure so uh Cindy if you want to take it over and present the plans sure good morning my name is Cindy Hoffman i'm representing the applicant and for the 501 Washington street property i'm a licensed professional landscape architect in North Carolina with ever 20 years experience and a senior project manager at Stuart and Durham um i made jeff has um previously mentioned a major certificate of occupancy or demolition of the accessory structures except for the fire drill tower and demolition of two city garage additions were approved on october 5th with the condition of the 365 day delay the site also received a second certificate of appropriateness on december 7th for the construction of a new mixed-use building addressing the future Durham belt line with the appropriate frontage and congruence to the two primary historic structures on site we're here today requesting a major certificate of appropriateness amendment for the relocation and repurposing of the historic city garage employee restroom and elimination of the 365 day delay demolition delay carly can you turn to page 10 thank you just a kind of a recap of the site in existing conditions the site is located at 501 Washington street it's a predominant visible site at the corner of Washington and west corporation street adjacent to and east of the existing abandoned railroad and future Durham belt line in downtown Durham uh historic designations the site is part of the foster and west gear street national historic district and city garage building and fire drill tower are listed as local historic landmarks you can see the location of the existing former employee restroom at the southwest corner of city garage building the building is in need of significant environmental re remediation that's a lot of mold issues this the small building is approximately 300 square feet constructed with granite ash low pavers from the form former Durham streets in turn to page 11 here's some photos of the existing structure of all the different sides you can see the two separate doorways the block windows the granite ash were blocks that are used for the construction and it's also partially below grade on one side so you can turn to page 13 just relocate we're proposing to relocate the um the employee restroom uh the structure is currently located in the approved new developments proposed fire lane and therefore needs to be relocated you can see the new site plan with the new proposed building the fire lane alley this cutting um going through the site um and we're proposing relocating and repurposing the restroom to the northwest corner of the city garage building and go to page 12 so you can see the location there on the northwest corner and page 12 shows the new site there um currently vacant gently sloping slopes slopes adjacent to the existing city garage building and it'll also be located on the proposed fire lane alley okay um go to page 13 back there again so we're showing the location of where we're proposing then repurposing the bathroom restroom into an amenity area pavilion and that location we've been working with preservation Durham on various options for relocating repurposing the bathroom some of which was looking at using the granite ashler block as a screen wall around the transformer that is really dictated by Duke energy as far as remaining maintaining clearances and keeping openings toward the alley and it just it was not a viable solution and on top of that Duke I would have to have all the approvals for that if we did use the screen wall but it ends up not really screening anything once we put the clearances in in the opening so um those requirements kind of negate the intent and purpose of the screen wall and therefore was not a viable option another option we looked at with preservation Durham as relocating the bathroom to the belt line um when the owner developer has had many conversations with the city and parks and recreation and although the city is receptive to the idea the uncertainties of the lengthy acceptance process storage of materials construction and schedule made this option uncertain so we the third option that we've kind of settled on is relocating and repurposing the restroom at the amenity pavilion area and if you can turn to pages 14 and 15 we'll do 14 first this is kind of the site plan that would happen at that corner of city garage and the corner of the alley fire lane the proposed outdoor amenity area be located at the northwest corner and to the rear city garage and adjacent to the alley repurposing of the restroom will be and was trying to page 15 now you can see different elevations of what this would be proposed structure would look like repurposing of the restroom into an open-air pavilion will be reconstructed with materials found in the original building it will include a similar building footprint reuse of the exterior ashler granite paver blocks and exposed timber joist reminiscent of the restroom ceiling joist brick planter seat walls will be reflective of the restroom interior brick walls complimenting the adjacent city garage building the proposed structure will include window openings for visibility and precast concrete paver floors built in with seating and direct accent lighting and landscaping will create a place for small social interactive gatherings and individual quiet reflections a plaque located on the wall will tell the story of the historic employee restroom and the development team believes this option excuse me has the greatest potential of honoring the history of the employee restroom and the site and the spirit of the site's history of change and adaptation for different uses over time we are seeking to relocate and repurpose the former employee restroom to correspond with the site's evolution into a mixed-use residential retail restaurant and entertainment destination we are committed to preserving the historic integrity of the granite ashler restroom as part of a future design of the site continuing the legacy of reuse we request approval of the 501st street certificate of appropriateness for relocation repurposing of the former city garage employee restroom and the 306th the elimination of the 365 day delay with the site's previously approved demolition coa we appreciate that commission's time and consideration and we'll be glad to answer any questions thank you first i'd like to commend you on your work in restoring and repurposing as many as much of that rational mission to it i was very concerned about the wording on the plaque but i i do understand that you will work with um preservation Durham on assuring that that wording tells the direct story of that of that of that granite um and and you know of the of the restaurant so i appreciate that uh very much thank you commissioner calhoon do we have uh any other commissioners who would like to ask any questions of the applicant today this commissioner bullsby um can you give me uh give us a little bit more understanding about the design of the current pavilion or this pavilion that you're um you have here in respect to proportions and the openings of the original structure you know are these one-for-one or is it going to be a smaller version of the restroom uh the building footprint is the same um so same scale in proportions uh where the doors are currently we've made a larger opening there are currently some windows with block glass that are being open it probably is a little more open than the existing structure just because we'd like to have eyes no places for people to hide or just safety reasons but um a lot of visibility into and out of the structure i would just like to add to that that um oh i'm sorry uh to jump in i would just like to add to that though that that is one of the things that we spent some time discussing with preservation there our goal was to make sure that this is a safe and usable space um if trying to maintain some of the original wall openings and the sizes of those it felt very closed off um so we went through several different iterations trying to balance the kind of um uh i guess the original openings and the two-door scenario versus something that we felt would be more usable and this is kind of the result of a balance between the existing structure and what we thought would be safe and usable great thanks yeah thanks for clarifying the answer my other question Jonathan i'd like to uh follow up i'm also uh when the commissioner calhoun spoke this is uh i'd like to commend you all on on uh working together and uh proving why the 365 day delay is important and that we can uh shorten it i hope so that that's what's going to happen in the end of this as long as the really preservation dorm is uh is behind it as well but working together between the preservation side development and uh getting to a what looks for it to me as a wonderful solution thank you thank you very much mr dayon anybody else questions for the applicant today if not i will ask if there is anyone else who intends to speak either for or against this application today mr miller uh thank you mr chairman my name is tom miller and i'm president of preservation Durham for the commission i want to say we urge you to approve this new coa application and to lift the 365 day delay although uh jeff and cindy have already described to you our process i want to say how grateful we are uh that this developer gave such a wonderful opportunity to work with them not only on this pavilion structure which is the subject of a great deal of concern but on the overall project we think that it is much better with regard to this structure if you remember uh when the application first came to you uh back last fall uh the applicant proposed to reuse the the granite pavers that are in these buildings here and there throughout the project but primarily in a horizontal way and in the fire way um and we thought that uh the important story this segregated bathroom has to tell would be completely lost if that was what we were going to do and over the next months we went back and forth on how best to to create a building structure that would allow us to tell the story of segregation on this site and uh as as cindy and jeff told you we looked at several alternatives i want to note here just for the record uh that uh Durham architect Brett Horton uh with preservation Durham got really interested in this project and proposed that we look at the developer's idea of a pavilion where we preserved the essential scale of the building but we opened up its spaces to make it an open air pavilion as you saw the the original uh bathroom building would would not be very suitable for that purpose uh and so we went back and forth on various designs and we have resolved on this one uh and we're pretty pleased with this and so we urge you to approve the coa i want to conclude if i may by saying we all live in in a statutory and regulatory environment uh with uh the coa process that i don't think any of us would have created had it been up to us the whole business of having the uh historic preservation commission uh uh essentially uh order a delay and then expect opposing parties to work together um um while it is possible uh as this project shows for that to to actually that 365 days to be used beneficially it frequently is not uh but here we really did it and we did it because uh jeff and his team were so open to the input that we wanted to give and we're grateful for that so thank you mr chairman and thank you members of the commission i'm available for questions if you happen thank you very much mr miller do any of the commissioners have any questions for mr miller seeing no hands raised and hearing none um and given that mr miller spoke in favor of and not in opposition uh to the application there's uh no need for a rebuttal obviously and so i think at this stage i will close the public hearing and invite discussion among my commissioner colleagues my sense is that we likely all share the same appreciation um that we've heard from commissioner calhoun and commissioner dayan and from mr miller um i certainly appreciate all the efforts um undertaken and in duly note what mr miller had to say there's something inherently adversarial about putting a 365 day delay on a demolition request um that is the tool that we have at our disposal um and it seems to have uh yielded something uh pretty extraordinary in this case and i applaud everybody for your efforts in working together to to make it happen if there are no further uh comments or questions or concerns of any of my fellow commissioners i would ask uh carla for a staff recommendation carlo rozenberg's uh planning department staff would approve recommendation um staff would recommend approval of the application um and i do have a question though um as to whether all of the granite papers were used and if not if the if those were going to be incorporated into the site at all that's just a curiosity question that i have okay answer first jeff and i want to add um it's uncertain at this time they're going to have to be taken apart from the original bathroom and cleaned um how many of those are viable we hope most of them will be but looking at the amount of structure we may have some blocks left over but we haven't planned for not knowing how many exactly will be salvageable and be able to be cleaned up and reused have not don't have a quantity on that would somebody like to make a motion please do thank you uh the Durham Historic Preservation Commission finds that in the case coa 2200002 501 Washington street demolition amendment the applicant is proposing to amend a previously approved proposal to demolish additions and accessory structures associated with the land with a landmark property salvage materials from the employee restroom will be used to construct an open-air pavilion at the northwest corner of the primary structure all other accessory structures and additions will be demolished as previously proposed the delay of 360 365 days on the approved demolition per coa 210068 will be removed therefore the conclusion of laws that the proposed addition and the alterations are consistent with the historic character and qualities of the historic district and are consistent with the historic properties local review criteria specifically those listed in the staff report and the Durham Historic Preservation Commission approves this certificate of appropriateness for case coa 2200002 501 Washington street demolition amendment with the following conditions one the improvement shall be substantially consistent with the plans and testimony presented to the commission at this commission hearing and attached to this coa the improvements may require additional approved approvals from other city or county departments or state or local agencies the applicant is responsible for obtaining all required approvals relating to building construction site work and work in the right of way and three a compliance inspection shall be performed immediately upon completion of the work approved here in second commissioner thank you vice chair gulsby court homes roll call vote please all right chair bouchard approved commissioner day in commissioner de berry approved vice chair gulsby approved commissioner calhoun approved motion passes five to zero thanks again everybody for all of your hard work on this congratulations and good luck with the entirety of the project right thank you so much thank you all appreciate your consideration thanks fellow commissioners that is the last case we have on our agenda we have no items listed under old business under new business we have three items starting with landmark study list proposal the chicken hut carla um so i am just i'm just communicating with chris it looks like the applicants are not here to discuss the project because it's not an actual hearing i think we could proceed without them i'll have christa confirm that we could also take a five minute break and i could just check in with them to see if they could um check in to zoom christa thanks for christa for gross city attorney's office i think it's fine to proceed without them if you want um but carla if you like we'll defer to you matt what you want to do i'm taking a break but chris please continue to try to um make contact with the applicant but i would uh given the fact that's 1115 in the morning um uh vote in favor of moving forward with um some at least introductory information from carla while we're waiting for folks to join i was going to send them an email to see um try to get on it yeah wonderful thank you carla you're trying to pull up the materials right i was just shooting off an email um let me do that maybe if you want to wait for the others i'm just proposing uh we start with the other seal with the other uh minor or sorry new business yeah i'm in favor of that why don't we go ahead and check in with clerk Holmes on the status of minor coas and then move on to an update on 1106 9th street and then circle back uh to the chicken hut landmark study list proposal yes i just received um notice from the applicant they said can you give me five minutes so okay great it's perfect let's be efficient um minors the away report will be emailed to you all by thursday most likely it'll be tomorrow very much amanda update on 1106 9th street carla actually i'll defer to you i'll i'll say a few words okay yeah we've been through a couple of records on on that move but we now have a from there from the city now what was holding it up um all these ones there are a couple of things one is uh the architect we hired to uh to draw the flat for uh 1107 click cradle he's um feeling well known in this area and uh lives and works within walking distance of the mango property mango street property he did not uh it was not drawing appropriately and they he they picked up on that because the application for this was uh was uh placed and and they rejected it because they they found that a small piece of the property but it still belonged to the previous owners and so that everything had to be redrawn etc and whatnot so that happened and uh but it was determined that what was going to be placed on the property was not overlapping to the area that was in dispute and so they're putting you know that continued of course in the meantime uh we've had issues with the uh those who signed up to do the move earlier so i think actually now has a new crew that uh will experience groups of individuals who are going to to uh to work on that uh the new bono who own you know the original owner of the house to be moved uh is hanging in there with us he's he's not taken with that but he is uh willing and he's willing to anticipate uh in assuring that this house improves off of the property as soon as possible so i think we are we're in better better shape work thank you commissary calhoun anyone have any questions for fed i'm i'm just unfortunately i've got like one of those those minds it's like really good for like retaining information that i need when i need it but kind of flush stuff when i no longer do um and so i'm just trying to remember this application this wasn't the the property where um the the structure that was on the site was going to be moved somewhere else and then it is okay okay that helps thank you oh we can't hear you dr calhoun yeah the property um is uh 1106 nine stream and so uh it was pretty moved lifted off of that site and moved down the street and around the corner and all that sort of thing all the way over to the 1107 mango street yeah log mango and so everybody's sticking with there for panty and uh waiting for the move so we can you know get our folding chairs and butter talk corn and wash the shelf you know this house going down the street and all that sort of of course we found out of points that that's going to take a bit because you know the roof that it has to go through has to be approved that the uh the house has to be cut in at least two pieces in order to get under some wires and so all that took a couple of months and then you know we that's when we found out that when you submitted it the permit you know the application was submitted found out that the uh the land that it was going to the plot you know the drawing was not it was not correct so that threw everything into a complete tizzy um and had to find uh try to get that person to redraw and they're going through this and finding him and all that I mean really so that worked so that went on and on for a while and finally we got the correct drawing um the little piece of land that was not going to be a part of this land was still in the in the hands of a formal property owner and the owner died so this isn't the estate and you know now you have to get another uh group of lawyers to talk to that those people but then it was decided just leave that piece of land off you know out of the whole mix uh because the house is not going anywhere near that piece of land you know that little sliver of land and so okay now we have a permit at both now meanwhile mr canoe is still under the 365 365 day delay for you know if he wanted to demolish the property he wanted to demolish it he wanted to save it and move it and so that's uh that's where we are now except that uh mr uh the new the bono who owns the property owns the house is he is working he's working hard to get that with us to get the movers in place and the foundation dug and not you know and the house get all of his property so that he can begin to build his uh his his new house there on that one on that land so that's about where we are right now so so dr calhoun what's your best estimate of when we can gather up our lawn chairs and get the popcorn ready for the parade around the block i don't know right now i believe that they are still trying to get approval to lift this wire and come under the the stop light here and all that sort of thing and so that's the 10 10 agencies have to sign off want to move like this and they don't get the moves very often they don't get this kind of case very often and so everybody's got to go back and read their procedure books before they can sign off and say yes you can come under this wire yes you can turn on this so it's it's it's been a trip i had no idea you know that it was going to go into all that don't work it through please keep us posted i want to watch that thing happen yeah we will we will you won't miss the show i can tell you that all right we have a direct message here from chris the applicant is here now for discussion of chicken shack excuse me chicken hut my apologies good morning can you hear me you can hello sorry so sorry i'm late no no worries i'm glad that you're here yes and i'm under my husband's name it should say kaya tap but miss tappett it's nice to meet you virtually nice to meet you all and carla how would you like to proceed here yeah so what um what i'll do is i'll go ahead and share my screen that has your write up um but uh hopefully all of the commissioners have read that write up in advance and what we'll be discussing today is um whether we believe based on the evidence so far provided um or that could potentially be provided um the the chicken hut merits a landmark um designation and there are criteria which i'd outlined for you in an email that we would be looking at it to meet so if you have any questions of course let me know but this is not a formal hearing but a courtesy review to give the applicant reasonable you know a reasonable assessment as to whether it would qualify for a designation for a full landmark application to come forward um and miss tap if you wouldn't mind um sort of giving us an overview as well um as to how you maybe came upon the idea of obtaining the landmark status and what you hope to accomplish with that sure so a couple of years ago i think it was 2019 we worked with the city to retrieve some funds to help update our parking lots and just update the building a little bit and we were told by one of the councilmen you should look into becoming a landmark since we've been here for so long and the family has done so much for the community so that was a suggestion back in 2019 and so i finally um worked to you know get some more information and so we decided we've been in the community since 1957 um well known supported the community um it started with clay born tap which is my husband um uh trey is also known as trey clay born tap the third his father founded the business started it in 1957 in another area part of Durham um that area was torn down and then moved to where they are currently the Fayetteville street location and when his father got sick his mother Peggy took over the business kind of took it to another level um excuse me so started catering started serving schools um contracts with daycares charter schools and so forth and when she passed in 2018 trey took it over and continue the legacy business and again taking it to the next level with some updated interior um areas like i said updating the parking lot finding funds to do that um and just keeping the area up to so we can continue to serve Durham serve the community um have a place to come back to black owned um one of the longest standing restaurants here in Durham and so we do feel like it should be a it is a staple in the community and so we feel like it should be a landmark there thank you um commissioners do you need me to post what the um criteria are um and of course if you have any questions from us tap i think this would i just want to clarify this is going on the study list based on today's discussion that's right and today just happens to also be the deadline for the full application for the 2022 year college to be clear these are the criteria for designation not necessarily the criteria for being put on the study list that's right um and so yeah you're you're going to be assessing whether reasonably could meet whether it has the potential garnering further evidence okay do we need a vote on this i don't know the process for this since it's not a hearing it it is a vote um it but it's not like a formal hearing vote but it would be helpful yeah essentially carla um sort of the the the sense of the commission um it's not a binding vote it's it's more just sort of additional support um being lent to the applicant uh to to move forward with the with the process that's right um because just a reminder that it is a very expensive application um and there's a lot of um evidence that needs to be provided and it's a long process that takes almost a year and full carla if you would help us understand or anybody else for that matter um who might have knowledge about the process help us understand um uh how these decisions um are are ultimately made is how much weight is is given to say you know for example on the one hand the architectural significance of a structure versus on the other hand it's its role in the community and sort of its its vitality and in the life of the community yeah um so the architectural significance is only one of those criteria that's um given for the other three pertain well one of them is for archaeological remains and the but the other two are for association with someone um or um someone who was um you know very critical in the local history and then the third one was the events um that it's an event that occurred there um so I would argue I think I wrote to you all that we would be especially focusing on um the you know person and and place being of critical value to the community that seemed to be the most applicable well the other thing that I note in terms of the criteria is that um when you go three sub a b c and d they are disjunctive not conjunctive and so it doesn't have to be all um it can be one right okay exactly what about the year do we have any historic uh places uh from 1957 so we have um NC mutual building was um I don't know the exact year off the top of my head but it was there about um early 60s perhaps um we definitely have some at least one landmark um from that era let me ask let me ask a couple of questions one um one step of the restaurant existed before 1957 right the business he did start a store um before 1957 but the restaurant I believe it started in 1957 I can definitely double check but that's the year that we've been going with so I guess I should have that answer yeah because I'm thinking that it was if he had a chicken box you know the chicken box right where was it do you have a picture of it um that would document the fact that it was born was it on telegroup street where was it and you have a picture of it from 1940 1930s 1947 I think it may be 1947 but did I give you a picture um I do have a picture I mean there's one yeah look at those I just don't remember if it's in there in the pictures I gave you I don't have any pictures okay I'll re-send those pictures and as I had mentioned in the email to um any sort of documentation memorabilia for events that took place you know menus that have been used um any sort of documentation would be firsthand evidence of the history of this business and that would need to be included in the landmark application and as Dr. Calhoun mentioned as well like having a map with marking of where the original location was we want to build um we want to build the story because part of designation you know our interest from the city's side is to really have documentation of what what is it that we're preserving why why are we preserving it and what is the history okay so I think it may just make sense for us to get this together and go move forward for next year would you agree if if you have not uh been able to gather the information then I do yes I do I can send that today I thought I sent that along so I'm sorry if that wasn't attached but I do have all the pictures I can send today so we need more than just pictures we would okay um yeah um and Carly just to kind of reiterate I think we've said is is that would be part of the actual landmark that's what we're doing here today is kind of a first step in that to say we we'd like to see more okay all that okay is that correct Carly that's right um this is the first step and we're kind of in a time crunch I mean you and I had our pre-submittal I think in February early February or maybe late January so it was very it was early February actually and so we're on a really tight deadline to get you into the 2022 year um I can have a little bit of flexibility regarding you know maybe up to two weeks okay but because ultimately we we need to be doing the first step in the actual landmark application which is sending it to SHPO for their initial review that would need to happen in May okay so given that this is by uh Commissioner Rolesby I'm in favor of hearing more about this or seeing this get to the next step you know what uh sometimes we have a little bit more information here but given you know what we do have I love to hear more I think it's worth going to the next step with this all right Carl I'll get you that information ASAP if I may jump in uh so uh then Jonathan down um structural integrity there's a lot of innovation interior I don't know about exterior additions that I saw well I read um I didn't we didn't see the question do you think that uh and that's to both of you um do you think those would impact or not uh the designation and did you speak with Tom Miller because he's like an encyclopedia on uh on this issue or he would probably want to really help if if needed and two um go to open Durham um it's mentioned several times there's some photographs there's some background that would be a great starting point for you know further research I'm also going to include a link to historic aerial imagery from the DOT itself that dates back to the 50s um that could help with some of the urban renewal history it's kind of mind blowing to look back at those old images but I'll include that in the chat here and all that is on the open Durham site too um has the restaurant it has the aerials the urban renewal all that looks like mr Miller has raised his hand um go ahead so again my name is Tom Miller I'm president of preservation Durham um and I can tell you preservation Durham would be delighted to help in any way we can and so when the meeting is over uh mistap if you don't mind I'll send you an email to connect and we're available to help you if you can I wanted to throw in um the this place is extremely important to the civil rights and political history of Durham from the late 1970s right up to uh fairly recently it's um and it's an incredibly important part of the story and I participated in that a little bit along the way when wearing another hat um so uh I think that this is a great idea and I'm speaking ahead of preservation Durham but I'm confident that this is an application we can get behind thank you thank you thank you mr Miller for those thoughts oh carlo what is the um process for this point forward do we go ahead and have a vote today based on the information that we have available to us today you could do that um it really is just do you think it has the potential to um receive landmark status it's not a binding vote that it does merit it but does it have potential is it worth putting an application forward share with us if somebody has a motion in mind uh by all means I was trying to scratch something up but if someone already has something please oh and it doesn't have to be a formal motion you could just say does everybody approve of adding this to the study list okay well let's let's keep it just that simple then um does the Durham Historic Preservation Commission support adding uh the chicken hut located at 30 19 Fayetteville street uh in Durham uh to the landmark um property study list and I will start off by saying aye I would actually do a roll call let's do a full roll call yeah clear homes one more time all right chair bouchard aye commissioner dayan answer would be a little longer the answer is for sure yes but from what I'm hearing there's a lot more uh substance that could be added and I urge the applicant to add that in got you uh commissioner de berry yes vice chair gulsby yes commissioner Calhoun yes I'd like to see more information on the history of the chicken hut back to uh urban renewal so aye put it on the study list yes all right looks like it was a consensus of five to zero consensus yes this is commissioner hamilton I don't have to recuse myself and I also say aye so it'll be six to zero okay six okay so yes your say aye as well commissioner hamilton okay six to zero sorry about that oh miss tap good luck to you and to your husband and moving the process forward we'll be uh watching with great interest okay thank you and I will um get this information ASAP to car to carla right carla send it to you yes okay yes and if you'd like to have another meeting to talk through things um and you know I can also you know probably mr miller could help as well in um connecting you with an architectural historian um who could help assemble things as well okay that's something that's of interest to you okay thank you so much thank you everyone come down for lunch absolutely okay thank you thanks again okay bye bye I believe we have reached the end of our agenda we went a little bit longer today than I had imagined but I think we did some really good work today y'all um with with our cases and with approving that landmark um study so um want to thank everybody for hanging in uh does anyone have anything else that they want to share um other than best wishes to Jonathan I'll miss you Jonathan it was nice working with you it was great working with you and I'll miss you all too uh I didn't mention everything one of you but it's uh it was a great pleasure um respect you Amanda Grace I said that to the uh commission as well but no uh you Amanda Grace uh that I didn't uh and Christo of course thank you all thank you thank you and if your circumstances change Jonathan let us know I will give you a call that's where's just Jonathan everyone thank you so much again and uh we'll see you next month bye everyone