 I would like to welcome all of you with the Universal Greeting of Peace. Assalamu alaikum, peace be upon all of you. Shalom alaikum. I hope I said that right. Thank you. I'm so honored to meet all of you and I hope there's time during the event and after for us to really get to know each other but again on behalf of MCCI I welcome you as well. This discussion actually came about with a conversation that Muneer and I had about this particular event and what topic would interest hopefully all of you and us and I kind of just shared some of my experiences speaking with different groups within the Muslim community from women, from youth and couples, family, married couples and the feedback that I've gotten about just what they expect from their community center. And I've found in just the past maybe 10 or so years, post 9-11 I would say actually post 9-11, that there's been this interesting trend of even though we have an increase actually in mosque attendance and even mosque building I think the most recent research that I read was that we have over 2100 and close to 2200 mosques throughout the country. There was also this other phenomenon happening within our own community, within the Muslim community, of some people feeling this term that has kind of gotten a little popular recently, unmasked. Has anybody heard of this term before? Unmasked. Yeah and this is something that has kind of come about again within the recent years and feedback that I got from people who felt unmasked, which what does that mean? Is that they felt that some of the issues that they wanted to talk about or that they felt needed to be addressed weren't being addressed in the mosque and that they felt that there wasn't a space for them in the mosque. So what was happening, because they had a need and they still wanted to identify with their faith and they wanted to communicate with their faith, there were these other spaces that were being created called third spaces. And this was sort of this intersection where people could come without really feeling maybe judged for having different views or maybe expressing their faith a little differently than maybe what would be considered normal. So they felt that we were seeing this pop up of what we call third spaces. So the conversation again that I heard from people is because they felt that some of the issues again that they wanted the mosque to address weren't being addressed. So what happened in the communities that I've been a part of and I lived in Southern California for a few years and I recently came back to the Bay Area is that the conversation got started, right? And this was, people really wanted to now hear from the youth, from the millennial generation especially, from women more, like what needs do you have that you don't feel maybe there's something going on in your community that isn't being met? What are these things? And I was part of like a really great debate actually between an Imam of a mosque and myself and we had this debate in Southern California about, you know, are third spaces necessary? Are they actually causing a conflict or is it causing confusion for people? Because now they kind of have to choose between attending a mosque or attending a third space. It was just a really great debate but out of that came a lot of understanding because finally this generational divide, right? Maybe a more traditional older, you know, attitude about certain conservative attitude that a lot of the mosque, I would say, you know, management or the board, you know, the people who are the leadership of the mosque that they held and then the youth who were identified as American who were very proud still to be Muslim but they also wanted certain things to be addressed. For example, gender relations, right? As some of you may know, in Islam there are very clear rules about how men and women interact with each other. And some of those rules don't always, I should say, they don't always align with the society at large, right? The society at large says, you know, especially when it comes to friendships or other relationships that there should be a more sort of fluid, you know, approach. Whereas in Islam it's pretty defined as how certain things, you know, are done. And so the youth are confused, right? They're born in the society, they appreciate a lot of the great things of American society, but then this other message is confusing them. So these types of discussions with things that they weren't really getting, that weren't, they felt weren't getting addressed. So what it did is by just having the conversation, it actually got the leadership to listen and say, we need to now start paying attention to the needs of our youth because what's happening is, or what could happen is that we might see them just leave, right? And that's the sort of trend that Monir and I, in our discussion we were talking about. Is this happening just within our community or is it actually something that we're seeing in churches and synagogues and maybe other faith groups where people are finding that because there's maybe some incompatibility with certain things or maybe services as I mentioned aren't quite what they expect, that they feel that they don't have a place in their particular center or faith house of worship in their community. So we thought why not bring this discussion to this particular event and hear from our fellow panelists and see, do we have similar problems? Is there a generational divide? Are there things that we can learn from one another about how to maintain or sustain our membership and avoid problems where people just feel like they don't have a need for faith anymore? And I think when we hear from Monir and some of the research that I'm excited to hear about, we'll have a really fruitful discussion. So I'm going to now pass it along to my fellow panelists or to Monir if you would like to. Sure. Thank you so much. All right, wonderful. Thank you, sister Jose. So next we're going to hear from Rabbi Dr. Lawrence Milder. Rabbi Milder is a rabbi at Congressions at Emig here in Pleasanton. He received his BA and his PhD at Brandeis University where he was a recipient of a fellowship at the Center of Modern Jewish Studies. That's a research institute devoted to social scientific study of American Jewelry. Rabbi Milder was ordained at Hebrew Union College. Jewish Institute of Religion in New York and the Seminary of Reform Judaism. And he also has pursued dual careers in rabbinics and academia. And he was an assistant professor at the University of Maine and a lecturer at Bingo Theological Seminary. My goodness, I thought at the American Hebrew Academy in Greensboro, North Carolina. He's also reserved at the Union for Reform Judaism as his director of social action with the New England region. I can keep going because it keeps going. The mic is above the ball on my hand so I'm going to stop. I'm going flying for the job. Thank you. You got it. Good evening and Ramadan Bubarak. Thank you. Thank you to the Muslim Community Center for your invitation to speak and to respond to Hossai. I consider this a great honor. It's my first time speaking here. And I do think in the 35 years I've been a rabbite it's the first time I've been invited to speak in a Muslim setting. So this is wonderful for me. And I wish you blessings during the Holy Month of Ramadan. I hope that our congregations, congregation Beth Emek and Muslim Community Center along with St. Bartholomew's physical church will continue to grow in understanding and in friendship. And this evening's topic really intrigues me when Hossai wrote to us and said, you know, here's what I'm thinking about. She had a particular phrase that jumped out at me that I wasn't aware of because she says, you know, we have this uptick of worship attendants during Ramadan and then it trails off. You use the term or maybe it was you who used the term Ramadan Muslims and also you spoke in addition to the regraying of mosques after Ramadan. All this was new to me. Among Jews, we do have a similar language. We refer to High Holy Day Jews. And it is those Jews who come to synagogue on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, the Jewish New Year and the Day of Atonement and whom we are unlikely to see the rest of the year. And I, of course, knew about twice a year Christians. But honestly, I had never thought about Ramadan Muslims. And the question, as I understood the question in our communications is how we all address within our respective religious traditions the phenomenon of religious observance that peaks around holidays and dissipates after. This is a little different than the specific assimilation challenge that you discussed but related. So let's start with the obvious. Guilt is an ineffective motivator when it comes to religious behavior. That's easy. No one is going to show up for the holidays if the sermon is why aren't you here the rest of the year? Here is where I think I have a unique perspective. I am not a salesman for Judaism. I have not taken upon myself the task of convincing others to be more Jewishly engaged. Nor am I an evangelizer for Judaism, but on this point I think Muslims and Episcopalians of Jews we all think alike. We are not out to convert people, just to exemplify the best in our respective faiths. If a Muslim fasts and prays and gives a zakat, it demonstrates a commitment to faith that others may find admirable and perhaps attractive. Jews, non-prosthetizing Christians, we all share the same approach. But that's not really the issue, is it? Because what makes religion worthwhile if it is not a set of expectations? Our faiths are by definition aspirational to be a good Jew or Christian or Muslim means to strive for something. It's that internal dimension of jihad or for Christians to live as Jesus would. What would a religion be without expectations? Hollow. Or as Jews like to say, bagels and locks and the Sunday New York Times. Judaism has the concept of mitzvah, which means sacred obligation. For example, it's a mitzvah to light the Sabbath candles, or to fast on Yom Kippur. It's also a mitzvah to give charity and to visit the sick. To be a Jew means to live with the sense of obligation. Now as a liberal Jew, we call ourselves Reformed Jews, that's our movement. I might not view those obligations the same way as my Orthodox counterparts do, but I share with thoughtful Jews the idea that Judaism is lived in dialogue with God. I am not alone. Jewish duty does not begin and end with me. Were I to try discussing what those expectations are with my congregants? Let's just say that our congregants are zealous with regard to their personal autonomy. Indeed, personal autonomy may be the real faith of many American Jews. Now I can't speak for other religions, but I would suggest that personal autonomy is one of those most highly American values. And this is where the rubber hits the road, because in contrast to American values, our religions view spirituality as a collective enterprise. We are in this together, and that means that ultimately we do not individually define our own terms of what Judaism or Islam or Christianity actually requires of us. But religion as a shared enterprise is counter-cultural. It runs against the grain of American individualism and against the Western Enlightenment tradition as a whole. Here's what I mean. Three billion people watch the World Cup soccer finals. There are two and a half billion Christians in the world. Soccer is more important to more people than any religion. We should keep that in mind when we think about nominally observant members of our respective faiths. Being religiously identified at all in this postmodern world is going against the stream. There are at least as many Jews who don't show up for a High Holy Days as the ones who do. Secularization is a bigger issue than the phenomenon of High Holy Day Jews. We live in times when spiritual practice on any level is a counter-cultural act bucking the trend. In some ways, this is an even bigger problem for Jews than for Christians or Muslims. That's just a reflection of the disproportionate participation of Jews in areas of society that have a highly secularizing influence. University education occupations that involve high rates of mobility being uprooted from historically native Jewish lands. Many American Muslims can relate to the consequences of being uprooted. But none of these factors are particular to Jews. We are all being bombarded with messages that present non-observants of religion or no religion at all as the expected societal norm. So on this point, we probably all agree. Ramadan Muslims and High Holy Day Jews and Christmas Christians, we're glad they are here at all. But I am not going to be able to change their behavior. I cannot sell Judaism in the marketplace of identities. I see us, at least Jews, as engaged in the creation of places that are truly holy, communities that aspire to be attuned to the sacred dimension of life, communities that care about one another, communities who feel called to repair a broken world. My gosh, that is an extraordinary level of commitment. Who joins such a community? Who gives their time and their resources to realize that shared vision? No amount of outreach programming or affinity groups or, dare I admit it, inspiring sermons are going to get our co-religionists to be the path to our door. What matters is the richness of our own practice of our faith. Are we generous? Are we ethical? Are we serious about our spiritual growth? Some Jews who are longing for an antidote to the enemy, the aloneness and spiritual vacuity of society will find sanctuary and meaning in the synagogue. But that will only be true if we are real and authentic in our respective faiths. If we try to sell ourselves, try to market our religion, we are no different than the ads we see on TV and probably a whole lot worse at it than they are. So at the end, counterculture is where it's at. I was a countercultural Jew in the 1970s when that meant reimagining what Jewish life could be. I am a countercultural Jew now when it means that Judy is a reimagined society in which we live. When it comes to the task we all face, I would guess that deeply committed Christians and Muslims feel the same way. Wonderful, thank you everybody. You don't cry when I'm in Sarma. Here at the mosque I say, here at the mosque I say it's not haram to clap. Haram is like something forbidden. I always remind our congregation it's not haram. Alright, our next speaker is Dr. Andy Logan. Dr. Logan was reared in Palo Alto. He received undergraduate degree in physics and math at MIT and a master's in science and math education from UC Berkeley. For several years he taught public high schools and colleges in Chicago and San Antonio. In San Antonio he felt God's calling to him to become a door coordinating minister. He also attended the seminary of the southwest in Austin. He then served as a year as a transitional deacon and new priest in San Antonio. That was followed by four years serving at Grace Cathedral in San Escobar, beautiful place. He's been serving in many facets of that ministry, especially outreach, social justice and interfaith work. We're so honored that you're here. And Dr. Andy is now the priest in charge at St. Bartholomew's Church in Livermore. He lives in Oakland with his wife Olga and her two lovely daughters, like the daughters of the late Nabi. Thank you so much. Thank you and as-salamu alaykum, everybody. I hate being third in a panel like this because all the good points are taken. But I think there is a little bit of uniqueness, perhaps to the Christian perspective on all this. The simple answer to the question that you, Sister Hasai, raised is yes. It is very much an issue in churches, just as much as in synagogues and mosques that we see a grain of the congregation and that we see some... I wouldn't even say cyclic, but spike patterns and attendance at certain points of the year and then the rest of the year tends to be an ever-decreasing trough. It took me a while to learn some of the jargon around this. In seminary, I had to hear this three or four times before I knew what it meant when somebody would ask, so how many CEOs do you have in your church? I'm not chief executive officers. I mean, are we talking about J.P. Morgan Chase here? You know, Christmas and Easter only. But it gets even better. There's another acronym, HMDs, Hatch, Match and Dispatch. So the ones you see only for baptism's ways and funerals. We know those as well. And it doesn't surprise me. I'm guessing actually that the HMDs might be a relatively unique feature to Christianity because we're at such a funny point, societally. We're living with this rhetoric that's becoming ever-increasingly hollow, that somehow this is a Christian nation and that those values and those teachings pervade our public life. And I think all of us especially here in California know that that is the language of a bygone colonial empire that has run its course and just no longer represents who we are as a people. And so we're in a new era where we need to reimagine who are we as a people, what holds us together, and how can we deal with the tensions and the differences among us in ways that build life and peace among our varying communities. But in the meanwhile, we still have this tiny little vestige and so we have a large section that says, you know, I can somehow squint hard enough and convince myself that it's the way it used to be and that my family is what it used to be if we just identify with a church maybe three, four times in a lifetime and that's where we go to get married, that's where we take our babies when they're born to be baptized and that's where we bury our dead. Now, I don't have any sort of ranker toward this and I certainly don't discourage people to come for that, but I also see that there's a little bit of a problem and there's even a problem with the CEO and my more fundamentalist brothers and sisters might say, well, the problem is that the faith is just not strong enough and there may be some eternal consequences for that. I completely disagree with that and I think that's a gross misreading of the scripture and the tradition. Here's however what I think the problem is when Martin Luther King was able to stand on Washington Mall and say he had been to the mountaintop and he had seen the Promised Land he could be relatively certain that the overwhelming majority of his audience had a context within which to put those words and he didn't need to connect all the dots for them and that is more important than it might sound. See, as a priest in the church I am encouraged to the point of almost required to maintain some disciplines that probably would have been fairly commonplace for a lay person in ages past. At least twice a day I pray what's called the Daily Office and part of that is a cycle of reading the Old and the New Testaments of Holy Scripture that bring me through the entirety of it every two years. At least every month or two I go and see a fellow priest who is referred to as a spiritual director for pastoral counseling direction, confession if I feel that's necessary. Again, these were fairly commonplace disciplines for most people who would have called themselves Christian in ages past now they are foreign to most. So what that means is that when we get those rare occasions when we get the Christmas when we get the Easter we're reading the Scripture and we're preaching a message in a very limited context within which to put it and you'd be amazed at what funky things people can do with sound bites when they don't have the context we've never seen stuff like that happening but all of this rhetoric that somehow cherry picks just a few proof texts from the Christian tradition and uses them to justify Islamophobia uses them to justify anti-Semitism immigrant rhetoric you know praise the Lord and pass the ammunition type of stuff all of this becomes impossible when you understand the broader context you can get it if you're willing to say the only text I know is the one that bolsters my case and it can be found I will give you that but I'm going to ignore the rest of the story but if you actually become a regular practitioner and I do indeed see it as a practice and that practice involves regular reading regular prayer regular study, regular conversation in community hopefully a community diverse enough that somebody will challenge your point of view you no longer can stay in that place it's not just something we need to do as an interfaith group it's actually something we need to do within the confines of our own communities and in that respect I'm going to say to Rabbi Milder that even though it doesn't appear so on the surface being truly Christian is as counter-cultural in this day and age as being truly Muslim or truly Jewish would be but it's a counter-cultural thing that I think is absolutely essential so to just kind of round up the way Rabbi Milder did a little bit the question is what to do about it I am not an evangelist in the sense that I'm trying to get more people to come to church I'm certainly not going to sell them myself but what I am going to say is I believe in a God whose goal it is in the words of the prophet Jeremiah to remove the hearts of stone from our body and to replace them with hearts of flesh and I know that's a text that we all share and I'm going to suggest that when it's at its finest the church is a community a body of people a living breathing entity that gives power and gives a vessel and gives a means by which God can accomplish that noble goal so anytime somebody is willing to hear that is what I'm going to sell because that's all I believe that we have to offer and that's something I think that appeals as much to young as it does to old as much to be completely secularized as to the devotedly religious that's what we have to offer thank you so much for the great panel great insights there because of course the American religious landscape is undergoing a dramatic transformation and so I wanted to kind of throw some research in here before we kind of get into our discussion there is this group called the Public Religion Research Institute and they're a non-profit non-partisan organization dedicated to conducting independent research and they're trying to figure out what the intersection of religion culture and public policy is so in that little bit of a bendyre they came up with some nuggets that I just want to read real quick here it's from a 2016 American values atlas this was the single largest sort of American religious denomination and identity ever conducted so from this we found that white Christians now account for fewer than half of the public today only 43% of Americans identify as white Christian and only 30% as white and Protestant which were the majority in 1976 for up to 8 in 10 that's 81% Americans identified as white and identified with the Christian denomination and a majority of 55% were white Protestants also non-Christian religious groups are growing but they still represent less than 1 in 10 Americans combined Jewish Americans constitute about 2% of the public Muslims Buddhists and Hindus constitute only about 1% each of the public all other non-Christian religions constitute an additional 1% and amongst American youngest religious groups are all non-Christian Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists are all far younger than white Christian groups at least 1 third of Muslims 42% of Hindus 36% of Buddhists 35% they're under the age of 30 that's roughly 1 third that are religiously unaffiliated Americans also about 1 third 34% are religiously unaffiliated Americans and under 30 years old 34% so if you contrast that with white Christians groups, they're aging slightly more than 1 in 10 white Catholics 11% I'll focus on that and then atheists and agnostics account for a minority of all religious unaffiliated most are secular atheists and agnostics account for about 1 third that's 27% of all religious unaffiliated Americans and nearly 6 and 10 that's 58% religiously unaffiliated Americans identify as secular someone who is not belong to a religious group 16% of religiously unaffiliated Americans none of the last reports that identify as religious person just have a couple more here Hindus and Unitarian Universalists they stand out as the most educated groups in the America more than 1 third of Jews 34% in Jews 38% in Unitarian Universalists 43% post-graduate degrees notably Muslims are significantly more likely than white Evangelical Protestants to have at least a 4 year degree 33% versus 25% finally the religious unaffiliated this is a broad demographic a third of adults under 30 that's 32% of our population and that's compared to just 1 in 10 who are 65 and older so just about 9% of people over 65 are religiously unaffiliated today young adults are much more likely to be unaffiliated than previous generations who are at a similar stage in life the growth in a number of religiously unaffiliated Americans sometimes called the rise of the nuns nuns and ONES is largely driven by the generational replacement the gradual supplanting of older generations by newer generations so amongst all this panel here's my question how could each of these faith groups representing here today make their representative faith more relevant to the younger generation who are the largest subset responsible for the decline who wants to go first solve our problems thank you thank you so much echoing what I mentioned earlier I think conversation and dialogue is the starting point we have got to listen to each other and we've got to give roles of leadership to our youth and I think the mosques that I've been a part of that I think are the most successful have a lot of youth activity they have youth leadership programs they train on how to just sort of come into their own identity but also take the reins a little bit from the older generation and even here at the MCC I'm very grateful to be a part of this community just in the past couple of months but they have so many efforts to really try to bring as many youth in as possible and I think as long as we can open those channels then we have we're listening to them we're actually giving them a space so that they don't feel that there we're here for them or that it's antiquated the messages that they're getting and it's as was mentioned before like just something that doesn't necessarily appeal to them but they actually do find that the community does offer something that they that they're interested in and they can be a part of so I think that's in my opinion the best thing that our community can do and I'm really happy to say that we have this wonderful community center that's really doing that already and my hope is that this can be something that we just see continue to grow that more and more youth programs programming for youth are created and that more and more leaders are developed within the youth well that's a tough question but as you were asking what came to mind was actually a conversation I had with one of our youth members a couple of years ago when I first started at St. Bartholomew's and it wasn't so much a question as just a brain dump but what she told me left my head spinning I mean she basically described a typical week for her at Livermore High School and she just said you know you'll look around and you'll see students who are experimenting with gender fluidity and then you'll see the guys who are going by in a hot rod yelling out words I will not repeat in the polite setting and telling them that they're going to hell and then you will see a group of students who are sort of the ropers you know the cowboys and then a cadre of students very recently emigrated from South Asian nations looking at them kind of like one might regard somebody who'd come from another planet and you know she went on and on and at the end she basically just sort of sat back and said what am I supposed to do with all of this and it just it's taken me a while to formulate or to even encapsulate what I think she was saying which is basically our youth are living at an all you can eat identity buffet it is absolutely overwhelming and it's getting more and more granular and the pressures are higher and higher like be this way don't be that way and you know and there's a sense of you better choose one or else you're not going to have any friends I mean you better figure out which tiny island in this huge sea you're going to have it so at least there's a few people on it with you and I can understand how that could be incredibly anxiety provoking and how we're seeing a lot of depression a lot of anxiety a lot of violence in youth culture and it seems to me like what and I don't know how to do it yet so this is my prayer right now but what the religious groups can do is rather than offering our island you know offering an identity on that all you can eat buffet because what makes us any more appealing than any of the others rather offering a way to transcend that all together and a place where you don't have to play that game you can simply be yourself be before God and know that you are loved and you can love others and do that in a place of not being judged and not being forced to pick from this overwhelming smorgasbord well I think it goes without saying that we could program for youth I'm a product of the youth group of my movement and that's where I got really excited about my own Jewish identity there's always more you can do to program for youth I think that we jump to some conclusion of prematurely if we think that the solution for attracting youth to be more engaged is to focus on them because of what they see is that the adults are not coming and participating then they may be very engaged with their youth group activities and their peer led activities and get very excited about those things but that doesn't translate into a sense of belonging to an adult community further down the road so the evidence is right before that and the solution is not them the solution is us the solution is the religious community that we create which is includes them they are a part of that religious community but we can't pretend that we can separate them and program for them and get them to be more committed than we are thank you for that so one of the youth came into my office recently and they're you know I always talk about gray heads versus black heads at the mosque here so after Ramadan the gray heads are coming back and I guess myself she said I'm got salt and pepper going so two of them called me a George Green look so what I'm curious about is what would you estimate is the average age of your attendees in your car recreation and I think I'll kind of say just about this congregation it really depends on the service the congregation so with our youth services obviously we're getting youth there but they're around 16 17 and we have to supply work bribe them with pizza works yes but with the other with others you know our average age I'd say is around 40 40 to 45 is what we're getting at our Friday sermons is what we're seeing so here's what would be the other nominations well we're a relatively small congregation so we have a fair number of families with children and if they show up that drops the average age tremendously so I really can't give it a number we certainly are for the most part an aging denomination our church has been seeing a little bit more youth recently what I can say however is the age group that's conspicuously absent and that is 19 to about 35 we have almost no way in that bracket so there's more to be said about that but that's exactly right but our congregations are Pleasant and Livermore base they're not in Oakland and the age profile would be different were we in a more urban part of the bay area I'm looking at the lay leaders in my congregation for guesstimates on the average age but let's let's lob off the special services the religious class services the family service by when age drops so we're up our midst for bringing a lot of families and relatives and again we're going to drop the age but outside of that I've actually never done that kind of analysis of the age profile of people who attend and if I hit an average maybe I would say 50 do you think that that's fair fair I'm going to talk about an average you'd be upwards of that that's pretty old I mean younger than me but it's still I mean this is not a young profile I'm sorry I just wanted to add one more thing as you mentioned our suburban settings so I served at Grace Cathedral in San Francisco and the answer there is quite different but it is really phenomenal as you look at a typical week there so on Sunday there are three main services the 830 service is liturgically probably well it's tied with the 11 o'clock for the most conservative but it's much quicker and much quieter in the median age there's probably above 60 and then the 11 o'clock service median age is probably above 50 and that's the really traditional one that sort of mirrors a large mass from one of the Church of England cathedrals we're more British than the British over there but then you have the 6 o'clock evening service where there's no organ it is you know it's piano and bells and harp and things like that and it meets on the labyrinth not in the pews and the liturgy is much more flexible there I'd say the median age is more like high 30s to low 40s but then Tuesday night there's a little program that started off with 30 people who asked if they could I don't know rent a space or use a space for free and put their yoga mats down on a Tuesday night and they did this for a little while and then 30 quickly turned to 60 which quickly turned to 100 and pretty soon the not just the cathedral clergy but the bishop of the diocese caught attention to this and said you know what we need to do something with this and so it said keep doing it but there's going to be a sermon as part of it you need to so now 800 people all of whom are pretty much between 20 and 45 gather every Tuesday knowing full well that they are going to hear a sermon with pretty distinctly Christian content and a yoga instructor who actually did as much training in the Catholic church as he did at an ashram that says something I'm so glad you shared that because I think it does sort of expand on the power that we have to change programming to appeal to people who might have different interests I've seen that too in some mosques where they offer martial arts classes or just classes that are not necessarily religious but just provide that sense of community which is I think the greatest thing that typically our different groups have always offered people right that there's a sense of belonging that they can come with their family with their friends and just commute with other like minded people and so looking at programming diversifying programming I think is a great way to again empower us to say yes we can maybe change this trend that we're seeing so I'm glad you shared that all right good so I think I'll move on to so membership goes with money I mean we talk about you know the churches how they've been sustained to have mosques if you need funds to do this and so at this mosque at least we use membership so how much membership can you get and that's how we sustain ourselves so what service are lacking as a mosque or any religious group that you think might promote membership and help sustain existing memberships if you have that model up here religious group that are lacking you know to be honest I can't speak from this particular center I'm relatively new but again just from the things that I've heard from other community members I think more social services would be ideal one of the things that I do think is very commendable about church groups is that I remember recently doing a search for different support groups for someone who needed a support group and I went through this menu I think it was just a general menu to find support groups in the area and almost every single support group I found was actually done at a church and I thought that was amazing and that's something that our mosque would definitely do just to provide a space for example for people who have maybe drug dependency issues and want to meet with other people or who've lost someone who are coping with a recent death maybe they need support divorce support groups but just things that the community again people in the community might really benefit from but to be able to do those types of meetings at the mosque I think would be really great so that's definitely something that I guess I'll tell when you're right now if there's a suggestion box I can write it to about a suggestion person thank you so glad you brought up that question in the Episcopal church at least we do not have a membership system as you describe as a matter of fact we would be severely disciplined by our ecclesiastical authorities where we try something like that so all giving is entirely free will now that being said regular attenders are highly encouraged to do what's called tithing just kind of get as close as possible to 10% of gross income both recognizing that that's a big stretch for some people and not so big a stretch for others but that being said as with so many churches of our size last year St. Bartholomew has found itself in a completely unsustainable financial position we started the year with a deficit that was nearly a third of our annual budget and we had less money than that in our savings account so we were literally in a position of do something different or close your doors what that ended up resulting in after looking around for other options for most of the year was a new partnership with a different church in Livermore St. Matthew's Missionary Baptist Church it just so happened and I actually don't believe it just so happened I think you know God was involved in this in some ways had to find a new home and we had a space that was just right for them so they moved over to our space this really solved a financial problem for both congregations but it also just opened our eyes to a way of being that we never would have considered otherwise because St. Matthew's is overwhelmingly African American St. Bartholomew's is overwhelmingly Anglo-American the Baptist Church is pretty radically Protestant the Episcopal Church is the most Catholic of the Protestant denominations and all of a sudden on the same campus largely voluntarily but sometimes by force we have these two groups where black and white are being forced to talk to each other and learn about each other and get along with each other and share space and share resources Protestant and Catholic dialogue and the whole neighborhood is looking at saying what this never happens like these are groups of people are supposed to not even be able to stand each other and here they are standing arm in arm and smiling and you know moving back and forth between their two sanctuaries on Sunday morning this is just amazing so it's not just even the internal change but the external change and I'm realizing that in a way the cart may have driven the horse in that a financial need forced us to do this but now I'm realizing that it's this sort of cross-cultural and ecumenical cooperation that could actually be what ends up being the financial salvation of not just ours but a lot of religious groups and that financial salvation is actually a byproduct the real deal is we're finally breaking down some barriers that have divided us for way too long I'm fascinated that the Muscle Community Center operates on a do system this is news to me and I'm really interested in learning more about you know comparative financial models of religious institutions this is a fascinating subject for those of us who do a day in and day out there is no good solution for us we you asked the question what could we do that would help attract more well there's no one single program that's going to do that what we do say about our identity is we call congregation the center for Jewish learning prayer and community in the Tri Valley and actually I think that we do a very good job of education both for adults and children we I think our services are enriching when it comes to community well we're involved in the community we do a number of social service projects and we're very active with the interfaith interconnect and that where we don't attract people all those Jews out there say my Judaism is social justice I'm not so sure about God I really I'm not coming to your adult ed classes I want to I want to change the world and that's what I think Judaism is and for those people we're not presenting the options of we're an activist a congregation that stands for particular values in the broader world that we want to see enacted and engage people those people aren't really getting what they need out of the congregation there's a programmatic area that we can develop more I just have one final question because this is an interfaith we'll open up for Q&A in the audience we're about 2-20 minutes folks like I'm going to put Sister Jose on the spot and give us a little primer on what we're doing after we do Q&A here but I do want to ask as representative of the three Abrahamic faiths how can we work these three groups work together from God-centered life where people are suffering from unprecedented amounts of mental health crises, drugs, alcohol, dependencies pornography addiction just a multitude of problems how can we have people of faith work on that it's all about probably the hardest question you've asked all the evening I think I keep my answer short which is to be unafraid to keep God in it when we meet as interfaith I mean one thing I recently shared with my congregation is that I often find with a medical engagement to be more tricky and more sort of emotionally challenging than interfaith and the reason is because with a medical engagement we're starting from the assumption that we're using the same source material the same set of scriptures the same traditions, the same history whereas with interfaith engagement we're much more broad minded and saying no actually we're coming from different source material and so we're much more comfortable with the tensions and differences among us but I think sometimes we go so far as to say we forget the faith part of interfaith and that actually at some kernel level we still have the same source material and I think if the world can see that we harken to that and that we're willing to hold in loving tension all the differences that spring out of that that's a really powerful witness amen to that I'm convinced that when we do these events when people see the religious communities who talk to one another out of deep respect and deep acceptance and appreciation and recognition takes nothing away from our respective faith then other people go oh religion is cool they know how to get along the rest of the world they don't know how to get along with one another but those people of faith understand how to respect one another and respect differences thank you so much I really appreciate what both of you said in your earlier comments about just really living our faith and being true to our faith and being the best that we can in terms of practicing our faith and I think if we can do that and to again share what you said about just really keeping God in the conversation being proud of our identity is the best thing that we can all individually do so thank you a round of applause to our panel thanks for your questions we'll use this mic raise your hand thank you so much for coming to speak today so I hate to use this word but I'm part of the millennial generation and I do see a great shift of people who are not religious in my particular culture and like that is due to all I've observed is that people in our age are more into themselves and not wanting to look out for it they're like they're peers because they want to get ahead what would you do in your particular religions to like grow that in this community let me make sure I understood your question so you're talking about sort of speaking to a generation that has become considerably more individualistic in its view of itself and sort of broadened that yeah like people are more well in our age group want to just like do things that get them ahead in life so they don't really look for the taking care of others or their neighbors like say hi to your neighbors like not seen anymore like how would you inspire that in our generation personally I might go around that might surprise a lot of people which is I'd start in doing something apparently is actually national practice in the country of Bhutan and that's something along the lines of the happiness assessment and the reason I would do that is because I am convinced that in this generation that's absolutely obsessed with sort of getting ahead at the expense of everyone and everything else the level of happiness is lower than it's ever been in the western world at least and I think there's kind of obviously if you confront people head on with that you're going to get a defensive reaction but I think there's some back door ways to begin that conversation I think once it's begun the logical mind can see that actually we're much more mutually interdependent than we think we are and that our happiness which I would hope is actually the true goal of just about every human being is entirely dependent on looking out for the good of a larger group than just one so in a way I would almost not use a particularly religious argument but more of a rational one to sort of start to address that and I think a rational one that is entirely in line with our religious teachings Thank you guys for coming out and talking to us one thing that I found just growing and moving into the city from like suburbs and just growing in my career that more and more we're around people who don't respect the idea of believing in God in general so whether you're Christian, Jewish, or Muslim and there's a lot of comfort that can be found for finding other Christians or Jewish people around you that you guys believe in God in the workplace and you can kind of discuss it or talk about it what are we doing in respective communities to kind of inspire others to kind of band together outside of our religious forms of coming to our mosques or churches or something like that I think we kind of addressed that right in that very last question where we talked about how can we work together to promote a more God centered life so I think that's something that we should do is just to be more outspoken about our faith yes it's counter cultural to be religious yes it's perceived to be something you know again not in line with modernity or science to have faith in God but I think the more we're proud of our faith and we don't necessarily push it on anybody but we just we're willing to share it instead of hide it I think that promotes and fosters more conversation and dialogue and understanding so for example right now it's normal gone and I think I did a session with new Muslims someone mentioned that he loved Ramadan because it was a great time to actually share his faith people would find out that he was fasting and then they would ask all these questions and it's you know but he welcomed those questions so I think we as people of faith should be obviously open to dialogue but also look for opportunities maybe around holidays when we do see these trends and people are talking about it Christmas obviously is a great time to talk about what church are you going to what service are you going to attend just to be a little bit more proud and outspoken and pass over you know same thing just to kind of again share maybe something that you learned if you did attend a service instead of feeling that you're by doing so that you're trying to convert someone I think that message is not true it's because that's based on intention and if your intention isn't to do that but rather to just share a part of you that I think people should be more receptive to that but unfortunately we've gotten I think into this mindset that just by even sharing our faith identities that it's going to be perceived as though we're trying to force it on to someone but who's giving that message you know I don't think that's coming from us I think that's we're being taught you know that's a way to shut us up and so we kind of have to push back on that notion do not have questions concerning the current middle-east situations there's a famous prophet called he forecast for see that the third world war will be between islamic and the west and each one so well many people know about I think this so what are your opinions and what's here about this I'm not familiar with this particular writer or those ideas I know that I don't worry about the third world war that it's not on my it doesn't weigh heavily on me I do worry about our country and I worry about what kinds of things our country might do and I deep concern about other countries as well and just because we're American doesn't mean we can't care about the ethics and the justice practice by other countries do I worry about some apocalyptic vision of the world and some cataclysmic conflict some armageddon I don't share that particular fear but I do share concern about the choices we make as a country and those concerns come from place of faith what's your one right here particularly sir if this is the sending under which to ask this question so I'd like to just drop it if you feel like it's inappropriate for this kind of panel but just out of kind of like an educational curiosity how do each of you view religion in general like is it more of a timeless set of beliefs that doesn't change or is it more of an evolving culture that maintains core values I think that was entirely appropriate to this setting I'll answer it very quickly so everybody has my view and it's not a view that's shared by all Christians but I hear to it quite strongly is I would say it's a both and the word I would really use is it's a practice there is a core of a timeless set of beliefs as you worded it I think it's a much smaller core than than many people ascribe to it but it's also a lifeless core until it actually receives wings from the person studying it and questioning it and practicing it and bringing it into community and dialogue with others from the Islamic perspective Islam is a way of life and we definitely believe that it is the religion as it is, it's been preserved for over 1400 years and this idea of reform or change it's kind of a slippery slope and so we wouldn't necessarily, I think from the orthodox view use those terms as opposed to dialogue and really looking at concerns that emerge with each passing of time if there's something that's happening in a certain time and place that those things are addressed in the context that they need to be addressed but not necessarily to alter the faith or change the faith in any way because we believe that Islam is preserved and it doesn't need a reformation or a change but that doesn't mean that things as I said that emerge because of changing times aren't to be addressed they absolutely are to be addressed from the scholars and from the people who are equipped to make those assessments but other than that this idea of of it changing or evolving with the time is not something that most Muslims ascribe to five minutes away from the start so I'm going to say just one short question and then we'll think forever let's go no questions are good sorry about that what you call the third space so I'm guessing the first space is like the liturgical space and the second space is none so the third space is like maybe in this whole language we call the emerging church can you talk more about how each of your entities draws in those communities whether it be about like kind of hot issue authors I know in the emerging church or in Judaism I know there's a podcast that I listen to that talks about Zionism but also cultural Judaism had the same conversation I don't know as much about Muslim communities so can you talk about how you draw in those third spaces into your dialogues I'd like to change the way we think about that language because third space is a particular term used by certain academics in a very precise way the first space is home the second place is work the third space is where you go for a meeting that's neither home nor work that is a very common term that's used by a lot of academics to describe relationships people seek out relationships in addition to home and work but those relationships may happen at the gym they could happen at the bar they could happen at the you know the particular you always go out you play bridge once a week whatever it might be people have communities that they build synagogue churches mosques are third spaces they are the third spaces in people's lives for those people who feel embedded in them in this sense the alternatives to synagogue mosques the Jewish communities the havoran movement but whatever the places mosques go that isn't the mosque it's also a third space in that sense it's no different than the mosque it's a place people go for a meeting in addition to the primary places that we all occupy we all got but it's not the same for all of us I would say something fairly similar to Rabbi Milder I actually do take issue with sort of the third space language because I think in the words of C.S. Lewis an Anglican scholar from last century he said you know Christianity has to be either overwhelmingly first or not at all and his point being not not to shake a stick at people but rather to say you don't need God any less when you're peeling potatoes at your sink and preparing dinner for your family or when you're sitting at desk working all day then you do when you go to church on Sunday morning so they're really if you are seeking that meaning that transcendence that divine presence in your life at all seek it everywhere and in all your spaces and all your settings and all your times and so I would say you know my goal as a minister is to try to facilitate that for people you know to decompartmentalize and deprofessionalize the religion and make it something that is tangible and practicable 24-7 As you're giving your answer C.S. Lewis say you just kind of give a personal affection on meets I know the brochure has a lot of information academic in there Just to answer your question about the third space as I mentioned it sort of emerged from a need that people had who felt that they didn't have a place in the mosque but I think to address again this is completely based on my experience the people who who sought out third spaces are people who maybe were looking for a more progressive sort of identity as a Muslim and they felt that by coming into mosques where there's you know more expectation to sort of you know follow certain rules and there's you know certain parameters that they wanted to be kind of free from that and so you know the places that I've been to are there's a motto for example and one of them says come as you are to Islam as it is so it's like an open door policy you can come regardless of whether you're Sunni or Shia whether you are new to the faith or you've been practicing for a long time whether you wear the hijab for example if you're a Muslim woman or you choose not to so it's really very open minded and it's there aren't as many restrictions and so I think that's the motto that's worked and a lot of people really appreciate that because they do find that there is a place of non judgment there's a place where they can just be themselves and you know and so that doesn't mean to say though that they don't still you know come to the mosques I think it's just an additional space that they can go and find that sort of again a sense of belonging to oh sure over there thank you