 Thanks for staying with us now. Nigeria's tourism and green energy industry are in the early stages of development with the potential to become major drivers of economic growth and job creation. The country has a diverse range of tourist attractions, including beaches, national parks, cultural attractions, and an abundance of renewable energy resources, including solar wind hydropower. By transitioning away from fossil fuels, Nigeria can significantly reduce its carbon footprint to meet its goal of net zero emission by 2060 and combat climate change. However, the country's energy mix is still heavily reliant on fossil fuels. And the tourism business still lacks any structure. Nonetheless, the government and several private companies are committed to developing tourism and renewable energy resources in the country. So today we're asking, what is the future of tourism and green energy in Nigeria? Now, please, let's hear what you have to say. Remember, you can join the conversation, send us an SMS or WhatsApp to 08-1-803-4663. Mary, you're the one that traveled recently. Why didn't you go within Nigeria? I have to put you on this spot. But tell me, what are the tourist attractions that you've visited in Nigeria or tourist destinations or whatever? Do you have any? It's questions. Uh-uh. The question. Don't shame us in this country. I've been to the beach now. The beach is the good beach. That's a tourist attraction. No one else, nothing else. You've not been to Ilashe? Yeah, I've been to Ilashe. OK. What else? That's about it. You could go see what hot spring is going to be like. I never did all these excursions in school, which is very sad, actually. You're talking to the wrong person. What are the places you've visited? Please, Lagos. Just the beach. You've not been to all the places you were calling about in your country? No, you haven't gone there. No, but I have been to the one in Batch. I keep forgetting the name. Something waterfall. I've traveled by road now. That's the thing. The danger when you're traveling by road is just even a little bit out here. Let me bring it now, I guess. I've been to many places, but let me just go back. Don't worry, don't worry. I'm a banjo living, studying economics at Bayero University, Canada, and has taken several courses on strategy and execution, digital transformation, and design thinking from various schools like MIT and University of Cambridge. Banjo has led several transformative growth tech and impact-led projects and initiatives that have improved business outcomes. Now he has held different roles across different industries, ranging from direct marketing and advertising to oil and gas downstream and also retail supply and where he was CEO and executive director before transitioning to the clean energy sector, where he's currently functions as the group head of renewable energy mobility and tourism at Stirling Bank. At Stirling Bank, Banjo and his team recently spearheaded the launch of Nigeria's first charging station for electric vehicles. Can you see that? They are focused on creating impact by accelerating mass markets, access to clean and affordable energy alternatives for power and mobility. And he's joined us gracefully in the studio. Thank you so much for joining us, Banjo. It's good to be here. I mean, I'm having fun studying all the good things that's happening with Stirling Bank. So I'm coming to that one later. But tourism, renewable energy, right? Let me go with tourism first. How promising is the Nigerian terrain when it comes to tourist attractions? Like can we truly generate revenue? I mean, we took a story that we're laughing about how people set up somewhere just come out and go and be viewing the heavens. If you try that here, I don't know, but they say that people will pay for it. But I don't know if it is something that people, how receptive are Nigerians to tourist attractions in Nigeria? And how ready is the market for it? Well, I think just before you introduced me, we had a little chat just now. And even on this table, it looks like, I'm not a very big traveler. I have to confess. So I'm sort of with you, you know, on that. I have to say that these very little conversation we had sort of spotlights how much potential there is locally because we don't travel Nigeria. We don't go across Nigeria. And this is generally speaking, whether it's by design or by, I mean, as a function of the things that happen around us. You made mention of security. Yeah, I think so, yeah. People just don't want to. Exactly, exactly. And then there's something that's also very instructive. Once we speak about tourism locally, what generally comes to people's minds is outward movement. If you go to the West, in contrast, when you speak tourism, the mindset is inward movement of people. So we've been so conditioned over the years to think tourism is about us going out there. In fact, it's something to be proud of. It's good to travel, it's good to see the world. But if you meet the average, you know, Westerners, they sort of know more about your countries than they do other places on the average compared to us. Whereas our mindset is, you know, we all need to travel, we need to travel and all of that. So I think that's therein lies the opportunity. But there's also a lot of work to do for tourism practitioners as well as the government as well. And I think the government of the day has sort of set the tone to say, you know what, you recognize that tourism can be a huge net earner for the country. And so let's dedicate a ministry to tourism to begin to have the right conversations, you know, put in place the right policies, the right infrastructure and so on. But we also as Nigerians must begin to appreciate what we have, these tons of tourist destinations that we have locally. Even if you don't want to go to Abyokuta, as you said, you know, or go all the way to the north, you'll be surprised how many destinations there are, you know, even in Lagos. So I think it's up to us now to first for the government who has sort of taken the first step, the bold step, you know, to set up, you know, a special ministry for tourism for the practitioners to take advantage of that, you know, have the right conversations with the ministry, have the right policies in place. Hopefully have the right infrastructures in place. Also for financial institutions. So it's... What's coming there? Yeah, to also support, you know, all of these to make sure that the adoption is a lot quicker. You guys are doing well, sorry ladies, because I was just gonna come there that, I saw, I think, Oendo State, as one of your ladies, you went to see the governor of... That's like, no, not Oendo, Oshun State, right? But the challenge I'm having now is what I see happening is change of government, right? If one government, look at when Donald Duke was governor, and how that the festival was such a big deal. People used to leave, like you would see people just travel, just to go and attend, but I mean he leaves position of authority and the entire thing, you know, is not as, you know, boisterous as it was when he was there. So the same thing, right? If we're talking about policies like government, because we can't keep waiting for the government of the day. So how can we get to make it like a priority? So regardless of what government comes in, they see that this is actually a money spinner, right? And, you know, they pay attention to it, and maybe private sectors, banks, you know, financial institutions invest heavily and maintain those places. Because, I mean, I think it was Jolla that was mentioning about maintainer. Some of these places, when you go there, you can't even really see anything. And they were really, when they launched, they were really very beautiful, but you can't see anything good. I mean, apart from few places like IIT, I've heard so many good reviews about the place. I hope to visit, you know, maybe this December, but literally, how do we get, regardless of the government, let's have a consistency around tourism and tourist attractions in Nigeria. So whoever is government, it doesn't affect, you know, the business. Well, I think there's a huge role for the private sector to play. I have to admit that. I think it's also a big role for the government to play. I don't think it's, we're ever going to have a rounded conversation without mentioning the government. And not government in the, asking them to invest in the business, no. But government owes to create the enabling environment for the business to travel. And that's a general statement. I mean, whoever it is you speak to, whichever industry or sector you talk about, government must create an environment that's enabling for people to want to invest. Safety and security, for example, is one thing that is outside the control of the private sector, right? And you cannot invest and reap, you know, dividend of your investment in an environment that's unsafe, right? Not to say that in spite of all of these, we cannot have a great tourism sector, right? Like I said, even within, say, the Southwestern region for those who live in Lagos or within Northern region for those who live in the North, there are tourism destinations where you can actually visit. But the private sector also has got to invest a bit more. I think that goes without saying. And I think one thing that's very instructive to note is the fact that there might not have been enough, I'm very careful with how I feel this, there might not have been enough appropriate funding for the tourism sector, right? And it sort of goes with what happens in the creative arts sector as well because the structures are not in place, the infrastructure and the system are not as developed as you would find in manufacturing, for example, real estate and some of the other sectors. But we have got to find a way as financial institutions as investors to be able to find different frameworks to de-risk businesses that operate within the sector so that we can give them the sort of support they require to find. But I don't think it's possible for us to have a proper conversation without involving the government. Okay, all right, if you're just tuned in, we're discussing the future of tourism and energy, green energy in Nigeria, and we have with us Ola Banjo-Alemi. Now, please, let's hear what you have to say. Remember, you can join the conversation, send us an SMS or WhatsApp to 0-1-803-4663. Yeah. Okay, so I wanted to ask, I know that you mentioned that there is like a new establishment, the government is talking right now. So the question is, is there any or are there any specific initiatives now concerning that aspect in Nigeria? You know, like, yes, there's a conversation like we all know, but is there anything particularly that we can look forward to, that we can term as progress for the industry? For tourism, you mean? For tourism. Well, I think it's two very early days for the new government. The ministry is just a few months old. We haven't seen, I mean, of course, so the usual sound bites are there, you know, creates the policies, but they're still very generalistic in nature, right? So we don't have specifics that point to the specific issues and what's going to be done and how it's going to be done just here. But I'm sure in the coming weeks or months, you know, we'll hear from the ministry and we'll be very happy to update, you know, the viewers on what's going to be. Absolutely. We'll make you forward to that. Very. Okay, I just would like you to expensate on the advantage of green energy and how important is it for tourism? I know recently they had a conference, a large conference, and I was able to attend and I saw a lot of Asian companies with high focus on energy, green energy, you know? So I know that as a country, we're moving into that and does it have a great impact on tourism and what would you say about that? Yeah, I think it does. And I think it does have an impact on pretty much every face set of life. Power, as you know, affects every sector. It doesn't matter what you do. You're just affected by power and there's no power, your standard of living, your livelihood is affected, right? So I think that power is so important, you know, to whatever conversation we're going to have about prosperity and you know, just moving people out of poverty and doing things to where things should be done. So in terms of green energy, I think it's gone beyond the buzzword it used to be a few years ago and you see now that it's almost impossible to have a conversation at a certain level without talking green. So and beyond the climate importance of having those green conversations, it is also a matter of efficiency, which means that I'm paying so and so to so amounts to, you know, purchase my PMS or my diesel. If I were to adopt a green measure, am I going to be better off for it? Whether in the short or in the long term, right? It has been established that, you know, jumping on solar, for example, is able to give you some savings over the useful life of that asset. Total cost of ownership is actually low, even though to procure at the expense of that, you're only going to see that. Wait, they called me. It is important to acknowledge that it's expensive to procure initially, but over the over four or five years, maybe even longer, you know, you find out that you're actually, you're better off. And because more financial institutions are also getting warmer about having those conversations, there are now funds available that tailor to renewable energy that allows you to buy and pay on installments over a long period of time. Okay, so I'm studying something on emerging markets, right? And the business opportunities that lies in this emerging markets, right? And part of the case study that we were studying, you know, was a doctor in India, right? In fact, Harvard used it as a case study as well. They found that quality healthcare, for instance, was a big deal, was very expensive. And, you know, for the population that they had, a lot of them could not afford quality healthcare. The study said 2.5 million people needed heart surgery on an annual basis, and they could only meet 3.6% of that number. That's about 90,000 people. The way it is here in Nigeria, energy is a big deal. Like literally, if the government, if we're able to solve the energy problem in Nigeria, I feel, in my opinion, and this is maybe, let me be conservative, but 70% of small businesses or 70% of just livelihood and everything would just improve automatically. I've been on solar since maybe 11, 12 years now in my homes. I just got that office and I reached out to your energy desk. I don't want to do solar. Because it's telling me, hello ma, how are you? I'm not answering him because the investment, right? I know I need it. In fact, when we got the office, I said, we're not going to have a generator here. It has to be a solar system. And thankfully, your bank is doing amazing in the green energy field. I mean, I saw that your building is completely powered. Like, see here. I was just calculating the billions. Even with, hey, this is my small 20 KVD I want to do. So the point I'm trying to make, in India, what they now did was they developed some kind of mechanism that healthcare is cheap. That no matter how poor you are, you can afford quality healthcare, you understand, at affordable price. So they are pushing the government towards health insurance policies as opposed to investing in healthcare itself. Let them invest in health insurance so that private companies can come into that space and blow it up and literally provide good quality healthcare. So how can we break down the energy problem we have, especially when it comes to power in Nigeria? Because right now, if every home is powered with green energy and all of that, it solves a major problem. Is this something that is ever going to be possible? And really, these things are not cheap. It's quite expensive. So, I mean, who, if I can afford to spend like 10 million on maybe a 20 KVA inverter and solar system and all of that. But how many people can afford that? So how do we start to take power to that level? And it's not the one that some of these solar companies will give you a rechargeable lamp. I think it can power one TV, one fan. No, I'm sick. Well, let him answer. Let me not talk too much. This green energy, I was waiting. Well, so I mean, it's a very interesting topic and I do agree with you. There's no area of human endeavor that would survive without adequate power. And you want to support some of what statements you made close to 50% of Nigerians. I think that was about 80, maybe 90 million, depending on where you get your numbers from. But about 80, 90 million Nigerians have no access to power. I'm not saying suboptimal access, zero access to power, you know, unconnected to the grid, right? So it's a huge yes, yes, yes. About 80, maybe 90% of businesses in Nigeria driven by small and micro, small scale enterprises. So it also tells you that for us to make a real impact and a real change, we must get to that level. And I also side with you that as soon as you provide power to Nigerians, the majority of the economic challenges they face would begin to disappear gradually. And the way to go about this, in my opinion, is I think the very first major move has been made by the government that in June this year, I think it was, the Electricity Act was signed, which now implies that... Somebody can power Leci, somebody can power Leia. Exactly, you and I can actually go into that. Into the business. Set up exactly, set up a hub and then power in cluster of households and the regulation to back us up. Sub-national state governments, for example, are now also able to enact their own energy laws, set their own tariffs, get their own investors and so on. And in fact, transmission companies sort of have an obligation to supply part of their power using renewable energy, which is what obtains out there in the West. Let me show you. In Scotland, for example, about 97% of their energy is renewable. Can you imagine? Right? We are a long way from that, I must admit. But I think that the structures are beginning to form gradually. I think the way to go about this is distributed energy, as you said. The little three KVA system, two KVA systems that we can put in the hands of, you know, the mums on pop stores and neighborhoods, the barber shops and so on. You'll be amazed at how much impact it has on the lives of those people. And they're the ones that make up the employer bracket, the huge employer bracket that we have in the country. So whatever scheme that we have must be able to target and reach out to these people and allow them to uptake the solutions at very, very minimal initial costs, because that's always where the problem is. You know, that's initial down payment. Immunization of some costs, yes. So if you're able to do so at, say, 10% of the cost of the entire solution initially, and then allow them two, three, four years to be able to spread the payment, or even you could do power as a service, which is something that Stirling Bank, I mean, Imperium does currently. You uptake, you don't have to pay anything. You pay, I think, one or two months energy charge. And then you pretty much... So it's just to feel like you're paying on a monthly basis, but just as you pay the... On a piece, yeah, exactly. So what happens is you pay as you use. It is predictable, it is reliable, right? And you can certainly be more productive doing that. So I think that the energy policy which has come into being is the first vital step that needed to be taken, and the government has shown that will to change things. It's now up to state governments, the private sector to be able to dig deep and see what sort of solutions they can provide that will get to the bottom of the pyramid. Awesome. So just to touch on quickly, because again, if we're saying we're inviting private sector, because that's the solution to this problem, recently I saw that the owners of Nuvari Mall, and I think they have some malls in Abuja. They say they want to sell market, they want to go home. Ha ha ha. Leave the country. The volatility of our economy, right? How would this impact, you know, this future of the screen energy and tourism? Because again, it's not like people are not seeing this as business potential. They want to invest their money, but they also want to have money back guarantee that, okay, whatever I invest two, three years, you know, I can do projections. And the projections would, you know, even if there would be some variations, it would not be so bad that I cannot even recoup my capital, right? So how do we manage the volatility of the economy, right? To some of these things, you know, to investors coming in to the country? Well, big risks, big rewards. Did you say that? Yes, we did. Ha ha ha ha. Where you find the risks is where you find the reward. But on the most serious note, I think that the country, the political and associated risks that we have within the, within not just Nigeria, you know, Africa as a whole, or should I say developing economies, is something that affects investor appetite. And it's something that's serious enough for any government to sit down and, you know, want to address. This goes beyond what private sector can do. The government has to make certain moves to sort of assure investors that this is a, the right place to put their hard-earned cash, right? And again, the government of the day is making some moves that sort of looks like, you know, they're trying to bring back investor confidence, you know, within the economy. But I think that investors need not be too afraid. And the reason I say so is because it's easy to sit in, let's London or Beijing and, you know, read the news and, you know, do your analysis and say Nigeria is a huge, it's a huge risk. And maybe so. But the truth is partnerships make a lot of things work. So there are people who are local, who work within this economy, you and I, that understand, you know, the local terrain, the local nuances, who are able to advise, who are able to partner with these people to make sure that the cash that's flowing in is invested in the right place. We ensure that there's the right frameworks in place to make sure people don't lose their cash. We ensure that the money's going to the right sort of businesses and so on and so forth. For example, I think one thing that we've been out for for quite a while is to find appropriate funding for grain investments. And what I mean by this is, so solar, for example, the solar solution as you write in note and the other time, it's quite expensive to adopt, right? If you slap on the commercial rates today within this economy, it becomes, it doesn't become any easier. It's not any easier, to be honest. But if you were to find funding from developed financial, financial institutions that come in at a single digit, that would be 10, 11 percent, the conversation is different automatically. So right and pay you 27, 28 percent and pay you a 10, 11 percent. So, and that benefits transfers straight to the customer. So right and then paying this very huge interest on whatever it is they've taken, it's all of a sudden a lot cheaper for them to uptake. So I think generally yes, the risks do exist as well. I think absolutely so. And Nigeria in my opinion, will continue to be an economy where people can make the right investment and get skin back, appropriate dividends. Okay, interesting. Okay, so let me also ask, I mean there's a lot of noise about solar in terms of renewable energy. Are there other options, other alternatives that maybe can provide some lower costs just for people to be able to access green energy? So you said a side solar. A side solar. Well there's a few other renewable energy sources. Hydro is one of them. But hydro is one of them. It was the water. Lights. Exactly. So access to the water and it's not just water, it's water with certain characteristics. It's something for right to go. Yeah, exactly, and all of that. It's that, but that's not something an individual can readily access. Somebody needs to go there, do the investment and then bring the power to you. There's wind as well. Wind is whether onshore or offshore is the initial capital outlays, even modern solar. It's more expensive. And wind is even best maybe in the northern region. Here, I don't think we're gonna get wind for it. No, but. I mean if you do offshore, here. It's gonna be great. But it's more expensive. It's more expensive. I think solar is the cheapest. It is. But the government's kind of coming, like for hydro, I mean the issue that we keep having with the dam, I think. That should not agree to it. I think that is something. If they are ready. No, but it's the maintenance. So some of these issues that we have that there's a shutdown of the. No, it's actually maintenance. It's maintenance and it's happy. Do you understand? I think in my opinion really, the best solution for us now. And again, solar has so improved. You know before, you couldn't even power things. No, in their beauty elevator, everything is okay. I say, I cannot believe that zero. Well, it's quite expensive. And I love what you say. I want to bring it back to you people because you see financial institution. I want to see how sincere you people are. So when you get those loans, because I know that if you are obtaining loans from like France, you can get even a 3%. My sister was telling me that she wanted to get loan. She was looking at it. She could not believe it. But you can get this loans and for financial institutions, right? Why are financial institutions not taking those loans? Maybe at 3% and giving to us like 5%. But if we now want to collect the loan at 3% and not give it to us at 500%. So what's the sincerity of financial institutions to truly want to bring down this interest rate? Because again, part of what our challenge is in Nigeria is the fact that we do not have a great credit system. Outside the country, I can just wake up and say I want to start a business that is worth 100 million. And there's a financial institution as long as I have my records and everything, we sign and I move. You people ask me for my mother's kidney, my father's liver. You answer all sides. My friend works in Bank of Industry, right? For now. And her portfolio is about 2 billion. I say, aunty, if I give you a collateral that is worth 2 billion, why did I come to you for the loan in the first place? So sometimes I feel like the conditions for even this loan, especially for small, because I'm very passionate about small businesses. For small businesses, I feel like the conditions for these loans are not feasible, right? If you really want to help businesses, there has to be a way that you give us this loan at really, really, really low interest rates and see how we can grow together. But I don't see that willingness with our financial institutions here. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'll correct you. Well, so, I think first off, to talk about the DFIs who bring in their cash and go to commercial banks through which they funnel the cash to the customer. Typically, their terms are signed ab initio. So if someone, if you, for example, you have your cash in euros and you wanted to lend to, say, the renewable energy space and I came to you and said, you know what, let's sign a deal. I mean, the terms are set out from the beginning and typically there's transparency in that process. So you would know how much the cash is going to the customer from the start, right? It's not as straightforward as you painted it, but I'll tell you, I'll tell you, it's not as straightforward, right? Concerning having to give customers loans at terms that are adoptable, I can't speak for audience position, but I'll tell you about mine, right? Right now we're able to give you a solar solution, for example, and use the equipment as the collateral. Yes. So you're not required to bring it, I mean, and you will find out soon enough, right? So maybe you'll bring me back here and call me out if that's not the case, right? So when Benga says so eventually, he will not be asking you for collateral, but of course, if you're interested in your credit score, and they are credit borrowers, of course, that will check to help us know your credit behaviour, do you take loans and don't pay back here? All of you take and don't pay back and so on and so forth. Of course, we also check your in and out flow, to make sure that you can actually pay back. The subject to some of the regulations put in place by CBN, right? Once all of that is in place, we're not gonna ask you to go and bring anybody's left leg, trust me, right? So I think that the banks are evolving as well. I can tell you for sure, but that study has evolved, you know, understanding that as a community slash impact led business, I mean, we're very, we're very in tune with what's going on in our communities. And so we understand that people that need the money the most are not the guys that can afford to share their credit score. And so both solutions that allows us to, you know, lend to them without necessarily asking for some of those funding requirements. Okay, so you're not going to ask me for my mother's kidney or my father's liver, no. You were saying something about the, not the small lambs and whatever. There was something MTN did, which at first, I didn't think it would make a big deal, but I've seen it help my mom and her little business. They might not be able to power that much, but as much as, you know, being retired and being able to watch TV and charge your phone when there's... It's still something, right? It's still something. Well, you know what you mean? Yeah, they think that I'm covered, because... Yes. They're charging our phone, and others cannot bring money to me. No, but there are different people. If you have some places now that you're saying... I view it as a... To support what you're saying, there's actually people who actually also make a living from those traffic. Yeah. So, yeah. One of those pure machines that are not on, they don't even live in. Okay. Yeah, so it's from the very small to the very... Okay, very big. Because I think big, that's my problem. But thank you so much. Okay, I think we had a fantastic conversation. Thank you, Mary. Thank you, Dior. Now, we had a great conversation. What a way to wrap the weekend. Now, before we go and show you follow us across all our social media handles, I'd wish for Africa to interact with us further, drop a comment, and, most importantly, follow all our engagements on social media, like share, invite your families and friends to watch and follow the conversation. If you missed our quotes for today, somebody ain't scrolling. More than technology owes... ...Ecology and apology. I saw you dodgy. We'll see you tomorrow. Thank you. That's a great day.