 Hey. Hi. Can you hear me? Yes, I can hear you. Okay, there's us and yeah, I can hear you just fine. Okay, great. So, thank you so much for taking the time for this interview. I'm sorry about the rescheduling before. No problem. So, I've sent you some of the questions beforehand and I would like mostly be interested in the Holopolis project. So, perhaps we could talk a bit about that. Okay, of course. Okay, great. So, perhaps I'll just dive right in. So, can you... I've obviously been reading a bit about the project online and Tanja was kind enough to send me the transcripts of your previous conversation. That's right. Yeah. But perhaps you could just tell me what's the goal of the Holopolis project. Okay. So, as Taiwan's digital minister in charge of social innovation thinking about the Holopolis, which is an open source, you can think of a open-ended survey tool that allows people to discover each other's rough consensus. Instead of a pre-written survey answer, people contribute their feelings for other people to resonate with. So, that's the premise of the experiment. It's mostly to get people into the habit of listening to each other and also seeing people's rough consensus in an intuitive fashion. While Polis is great, there are a couple of issues with the two-dimensional interface of Polis. First, that it assumes that everybody knows about, right? If people don't have the same first-hand experience, or if the thing that people are talking about is very dependent on local knowledge, then it doesn't actually make sense to ask people who don't have their first hand experience to talk about the same thing, because then people will essentially just repaint other people's viewpoints where those other people are the people who feel entitled or feel relevant to that particular locality. So, first, if it's location-dependent, then Polis suffers from that. And the second thing is that while we were talking about putting the statements online or putting the feelings online, what we're really saying is they're writing things like tweets, like short segments of text. And not all people are comfortable with this modality. Some people are more versed in short, like PC poems than other people. And so, this gives an advantage to people who are highly textual or highly verbal in nature that can compress their thoughts into words, while this advantages people who are more natural talking like we're talking like now. And so, basically, the modality is kind of narrow when it comes to the original Polis experience. But the Holopolis project is really not just one project, but rather a series of provocative design experiments to try to soft the two constraints that original Polis systems have. Okay. And those were that it's too local and that it's so textual? No, that it assumes common local knowledge and that assumes textual proficiency. Okay, right. Assumptions. And how have you then solved those issues with Holopolis? Right. So, I wouldn't say it's solved. I would say that we explored different solutions. So, one particular experiment in the Holopolis design workshops is just to get people into the same immersive world and essentially have a conversation in a immersive environment that embodies the issue at hand. So, for example, if we are talk about a construction of a airport or a library or whatever public construction project, maybe it makes sense to have the virtual conversation, the immersive reality of the hypothetical version of that public construction. And so, the conversation will feel more focused because it is ensuring that people, instead of having their phones and inside a backdrop of who knows what, it ensures that people have already imbued themselves into the surroundings. So, that is the immersion. The second part was also quite a few design sessions centering around using chatbots. It could be a textual chatbot that iteratively refines what people have to say about what particular matter or it could even be a digital assistant that translates not only the textual content, but a non-verbal, like the emotions that people is already having while they are uttering such statements and so on into signals that other people can relate to either via emojis or to translate those non-textual feelings into textual signals. And so, those are the chatbot of the Holopolis experiments. Okay, that sounds very interesting. I was wondering about the immersive feature. How is that, like, can you explore that a little bit so I understand how it actually happens? Like, how would I, if I, for instance, was participating in Holopolis, then how would the immersive feature be? Yes. So, one particular deployment we had is through the use of e-petition. So, whenever there is a local issue that requires the cross-ministrial attention, the local communities can always collect 5,000 online signatures to require the participation offices or POs, that is, a team of people inside each ministry in charge of engaged citizens to visit their locality. So, the case in point is, for example, we had a case where people in Hongchun, that's the South most of Taiwan, petitioned to have the helicopters from the Ministry of Interior, they wanted to deploy it to a local airport. But the reason is that they don't have access, easy access to large hospitals, they're nearest to large hospitals, is 90 minutes drive away. So, they essentially want helicopters to serve as ambulance costs. Now, this is a hyper-local subject. It wouldn't make sense unless you actually are in Hongchun, right? And so, everybody audit different ministries that deliver a solution, visited Hongchun together. But there's many others who are not physically in Hongchun who nevertheless had a history of practicing clinics in Hongchun, or they were originally from Hongchun, or they're associated with Hongchun somehow, which is why we used 360 live streaming. We did that on the Pescador Islands, we did that on Hongchun, we did that on the various different collaboration workshops, as we call it, when we arbitrated a petition that calls for the fishing rights in the casual fishing, in professional fisherman's wharves. That is also when we moved our gears to a harbor, actually, for the discussion. And so, through 360 live streaming, anyone can put on their VR gears and feel that they are part of the conversation, that they are immersed in the hyper-local discussion in the town hall, as well as the possibility, as we did in those hyper-local collaboration workshops, for each of the petitioner to offer their immersive videos so that people can feel how is it like to be in that locality. And that is especially pertinent. And so, the conversation will feel Pescador Island deliberation about the divers wish to conserve the marine biodiversity versus the fishes people who want to fish, because it is very difficult to empathize with one side or the other without actually stepping into their shoes, so to speak. And there really is no way for us to hold a workshop while diving, right? It's just logistically impossible. And so, that is when the immersion really shines, because it puts us into the viewpoint of a diver, right? And so, yeah, I think all these local workshops are really good deployment cases for the immersion part of Herla Polis. And it does enable people who participate over the internet to first have an idea of what they're talking about. Yeah, sure. So, how is it, is Holopolis like available in all of Taiwan at the moment? Or is it just in certain areas? Right. So, the underlying technology, the Polis technology, the high fidelity virtual reality engine and so on, are all open source, meaning that it's not just available throughout Taiwan, it's available generally. And even for people for localities who don't have the technical expertise to set up the VR environment or to set up Polis system by themselves, we also offer our technical assistance in the form of a hosted solution maintained by my office. And so, people can start conversations or start virtual worlds without worrying about the technical expertise if they want to just to try a couple of conversations. So, I would say yes, because we are based on open source components, anyone can generally use it. And we also offer technical assistance. Okay, that's great. So, it's kind of like inclusive for even for people who don't necessarily have the technical sort of like. And even for people who don't have the VR gears, I mean, the nowadays Oculus Go is relatively cheap, but it's still dedicated hardware. But even for people who don't have such gears, we usually just recommend people to just use a phone or a tablet and they can, you know, just move it around and still get an idea of the immersion like in 360 live stream, you don't have to put on VR, you can also set up large projector screens and have more or less the same effect because we don't have yet a lot of need for people's position of their head or their hand in a virtual environment. It is still primarily through audio visual. And so, to deliver those is not necessary to have a full VR gear. One can equally participate using handheld devices. Yeah, okay. And when you have these like virtual meetings, is the government or representatives of the government like always somehow included in those meetings or is it just for the local people themselves? What I mean? Yeah. So we always ensure that this kind of collaborative meetings have a direct connection to what we call agenda setting power, meaning that they at least determine what the government need to talk about publicly. So that's the minimum biting power. So it is always a degree of government response. If it arrived through e-petition, then within 60 days, all the relevant ministry need to provide a point by point response to the rough consensus that was gathered on the consultation on the collaborative meeting. If it is gathered in any other way, for example, I also personally tour around Taiwan and any of the youth council advisers, we have an administration level youth council, any of the counselors can also summon me. So in a sense, they are equivalent of 5000 people. And as I visit that locality to talk about the local issues, I ensure that in the other end of the immersive screen, there's like 12 different central government ministries. They may be in Taipei, they may be in the Taiwan social innovation lab, but they still participate through two-way teleconference or other immersive video audio technologies to be present somehow in that meeting so that at least they can see through their own eyes how is it like for the local people, even if they cannot make it to their place personally. And again, they're whole to the accounts by having to respond officially within two working weeks. So that's like 14 days publicly in the public transcript to any and all issues raised on this online platform. And so I think the key design issue here is we make sure that people don't have to adapt to come to the space of technology. Rather, we bring the technology to the space of people, to the local people, it's just a town hall meeting. They don't have to install an app. They don't have to download anything. They don't have to, the most they will have to expand a QR code so that they can post their textual questions like participating online. But that's it. We don't ask for any hardware commitments. We bring all the hardware there to amplify their face-to-face discussions so that it can reach a virtual town hall so that it can reach the people in the central administration. Okay. Sorry. I was wondering if you could maybe just like outline a bit about the process or well holopolis, like the projects of sort of like the details like how and when was it like started and that sort of thing. So maybe you could talk me through that. Sure, of course. So we started using polis in 2015. The first case that Taiwan's national government used polis is on the deliberation of UberX, which is at a time the use of people who don't have professional driver's license into public transportation as provided by the UberX offering in the Uber app. And the rough consensus at the time was that people generally feel that their needs actually took a professional driver's license, that the cars need to be insured, that protects the passengers, as well as a public registry must be maintained for drivers who participate. This way, of course, it's very important. And so I think it generally shows people it is possible for everybody to even given different positions. Some of them are Uber drivers, some of them are taxi drivers and so on to still come to generally agreeable rough consensus. And so that was the first case of the polis deployment. Now the holo polis experiment starts after I become the digital minister. And it is the idea of my co-understand how it actually in space. That is Shu Yang, who will visit at you for the for the conversation in VR. And I think it officially starts in Github in 2017. There's a dedicated Slack channel. There is a dedicated design workshops. There's dedicated websites and logs and so on that was set up at the time. And then Shu Yang invited many designers. They could be interaction designers. They could be service designers. They could be advocates from the Microsoft Taiwan HoloLens team. We even have visiting participants from the Singaporean GovTech and so on to explore the design issues about how to use polis while solving for the locality immersion as well as the over emphasis on textual input part. And so there's many prototypes that has been done since then. So it's about a year and a half before. And when did the experiment go into practice? Right. So bits and pieces of the findings of the HoloPolis research team, if we would. Yes. So into our what we call open collaboration meetings. And our open collaboration meetings, I think the first one that actually used this idea of HoloPolis is the motorcycle petition. And that is also in 2017. And it features a few motor assignments we had that want to relax the Taiwan's very unique rule of requiring a motorcycle to take an L-shaped left turn. At the moment, many Taiwanese municipalities forbid motorcycles to do a direct left turn. They have to turn left in two steps. And that creates problems in the perception of motorcycles. And so they really want to relax it somehow. But I haven't driven any motorcycles and neither have many participants. So it wouldn't really make sense for us to have a conversation without knowing how exactly is the trade-offs between the various strategies of turning. And so the petitioners collaborating with Shu Yang basically uploaded a series of videos of them wearing a GoPro on the helmet while driving or various possibly legally dubious navigations of various left turn strategies and even highways and so on. And so that everybody can get a feeling of how it feels like to be on the driver's seat. Now it is not fully VR because it's just a GoPro is maybe just 100 degrees and you don't get to turn your heads and so on because that's very dangerous while driving. But still it gives people some sense of how does it feel like to be driving a motorcycle in various left turn strategies. So I would say that it is the first case in open collaboration meetings that we put in the immersive elements to it. And the Pescadoras Islands is where we explicitly mentioned the idea of VR. The Pescadoras Islands case I think it's in November of 2017 and many other cases followed some using two-dimensional polis some using immersion in one part or the other. Okay. Had a history of stop from well kind of quickly if it was in 2017 when you started experimenting with it. And now it's already like you've already handled many of the cases. Yes. And the binding power part that the part that I said that it's important to summon the virtual presence of the ministries that again is first deployed in October 2017. And so far there's let me just very quickly fact check myself. There's 25 such touring and telepresencing on the local social innovation organizations or the youth advisors. So about 25 touring and about 47 open collaboration meetings. Okay. Can you or do you have some kind of an estimate of like how many people have participated in these collaborative meetings through holo polis or in holo polis? Yes. It's actually two numbers. Right. One is the people who received the whole recording or transcript afterward. And considering that each petition is at least 5000 people. If you multiply it by the 47 cases of open collaboration meeting that gives us more or less 200000 people. Quite a few people. But so they're aware that something like that had happened. But they may not have time to participate synchronously by themselves. And so it's kind of hard to gauge how much of it is a result of immersive experience. I think immersive experience after the fact is also very valuable. But we don't have yet a quantified result of how exactly is it valuable to have immersive experience in addition to a textual transcript. I'll be honest and say we don't have in kind of qualitative survey of a before and after we introduce 360 live streaming or live streaming in any case. But we in one of our more popular e petition cases at least people who participated on the polis the two dimensional polis part. We don't know how many of them have viewed the immersive 360 live video. People who express enough opinions to be clustered on that case alone I think is over 2000 people. And so that is out of the 10 times more people who participate in the e petition. So maybe one tenth of conversion from a asynchronous engagement into a more or less synchronous reflect the technical sort of like. Okay. So it seems like you've been able to touch quite a few people or reach quite a few people. Yep. I was wondering about the polis parts that you mentioned. So is it still like that polis and hola polis are still sort of like linked or connected that they're very much so very much so. So hola polis basically is an attempt to experiment on alternate user interaction modes. But while preserving the basic idea that people once they reflect on each other's positions generally discover that they have something in common. So this common value out of different positions is at a heart of the polis words. Yeah. Okay. Making it engage with people in various different ways. Yeah. And why do you think that's important. Why do I think when it's important. It's important. Well I think democracy too often lets people focus their attention on the divisive part of the society. Well of course it is important to look at the controversies and have a real debate. Sometime it lets people lose a shared sense of commonalities. But using technologies such as polis were able to show very convincingly that actually most people agree with most of their neighbors most of the time on the most of the things. And we don't remind ourselves enough of that and democracies. And for a policy maker it's far easier for me to look at the consensus of the rough consensus and say let's just turn these into regulations while continuing our conversation on the controversial divisive parts too often the divisive part held the progress of the rough consensus by blinding people to each other's feelings around the thing that we actually have a consensus with right and so I think it is to vote first it is to let people understand that we're demos right we're a crowd we are actually a plurality that is nevertheless united by common values so that's the first thing. And the second thing is that it enables a more iterative way of policy making you don't have to wait four years to vote someone else into office to deliver on your thoughts you can actually already form a coherent vision and have the existing career public service to turn those into regulation. Yeah so it sort of um it speeds up the process of democracy perhaps it makes it makes the asymmetry in information more tolerable in traditional representative democracy where one vote may be even referendum every two years or every four years in information terms it's maybe three bits of information everybody uploads every two years and it is just too asymmetrical because we are all affected by policy decisions but our input through representative democracy only is just just negligible right so many people don't feel like voting because they thought that this kind of input is marginally not useful for the democratic process but nowadays through epitition participatory budgetings all those different consultation formats anyone can feel strongly about something mobile as 5 000 people and have a agenda setting power and that basically translate into a continuous day-to-day democracy that because there's no winning or losing you can sign five different repetitions there is no need to choose one over the other yeah yeah that sounds great how have people um like received the initiative or like being active yeah they're they're very active in in taiwan i think we're very blessed with the idea of broadband as human right so anywhere in taiwan you always have access to at least 10 megabits per second required for video conferencing like this and if you don't have access people generally feel that there needs actually and because of that that enables the kind of the touring mechanism the kind of assumption that people can view live streams because for 4g unlimited data plan in anywhere in taiwan is less than two uh is less than 20 euros per month which is very cheap um and so that enables the kind of basic infrastructure um and so out of 23 million people in taiwan about five million so on to still come to station initiatives and we're very proud that it is um age the age groups are well balanced the most active groups are around 15 years old and 65 years old i think these two groups have the most time on their hands uh and and so we don't uh suffer a kind of intergenerational loss of solidarity due to the introduction of the digital technologies that's not to say that we're perfect we can still do more for example on engaging indigenous groups or people with a different cultural background than the mainstream but at least we're doing slack channel there is a data as well as age part of inclusion yeah actually that reminds me of another question is there an age limit to holo polis or is it that the best petitions we received as i said are from the 15 years old okay right so so they don't have to be you know uh legal to vote before they raise excellent statements okay what have um been the uh petitions from the 15 year olds you said they've been quite a few quite a few taiwan is banning uh indoor use of plastic straws uh for like national identity drinks like the bubble tea um and the original petition was brought by a 15 years old they were very popular on the internet posting you know pictures about turtles choked by plastics straws or you know the unsustainability of dumping the the seaway since the one so very good it's like the friday strikes and what we have seen during our collaboration meeting is surprisingly a 15 year old girl and she said that it is actually assignment on her civics class um their teachers want the student to try to find topics that will resonate with people on the petition platform so it is a school exercise um and and just now we're having a petition again from a 15 year old about uh a amendment to our referendum act because they want the referendums to stay away from uh human right issues as evidenced by taiwan's voluntary participation into the conventions on human right of un and so on and so while technically these conventions are the same level as laws so that the referendum can supposedly challenge and override it but those human right clauses are kind of by default protecting the minority so the minority almost always lose a referendum if it's comes to us versus them right so the high school students uh did a petition that requires and change to referendum act that prohibits such referendum to be proposed in the first place that systemically you know violates or somehow amends our challenges uh those universal human right clauses as signed by the un uh convenience and so again i think it's a very good petition and actually we took that into account so yeah they may just get what they want that's great to like a great way to get the youth um sort of involved in in politics even before they can legally vote that's right yeah cool um maybe we could talk a bit about challenges that um you had during holopolis um experiments so did you come across some challenges well yeah so um i think at the moment we still don't have a good convincing case as i said of the qualitative differences that i actually make to the people who participate with anecdotal like post surveys and interviews and things like that but we don't yet have a very good even qualitative model of how people's perception changes so we usually talk about anecdotes like my first experiment in the high fidelity virtual reality environment that i mentioned is with school children and some of them are not even high school they're primary school children so i projected by avatar to be the same height the same size as they are so they don't feel may as someone who is 1.8 meters tall right to me and we can talk about common issues uh and so they report that there it makes a difference but we don't have a rigor study of how much difference it makes and so that is the the main challenge of delivering the evidence the accountability of this particular methodologies at the moment all we have is the anecdotal okay how could that be solved in the future well i think partnering with the academia for sure right we have published the in the social archive uh that are the paper about one particular deployment of polis technology the vita one paper and after seeing that paper there's many different academic institutions who express the willingness to collaborate on this and so yeah i think the academic um collaboration is probably the way to go because in the public service if we evaluate ourselves we tend to evaluate only the kind of absolute necessary parts of evaluation and we don't yet have a really good model of how to measure this so partnering i think even you know with the the kind of VR conversation that we're going to have um in your your country it's very useful i think because then it enables a different perspective it wouldn't be constrained by the pressing need to solve one pressing policy issue because for repetitions it's almost always a pressing political issue nobody really has the time to do the longitudinal studies but if a view from a different country a different culture then maybe there is sufficient room for this kind of design questions for the academic opinions to be clustered sounds good because i think um like as you said there's always the sort of policy issue to be solved with holopolis so it's more like like a tool perhaps um rather than the sort of process that that's right it's not the entire process yet it's just bits and pieces from the holopolis research that we deploy but always was kind of a deadline yeah yeah how about um have you faced any sort of like technical challenges oh yeah a huge amount yeah so so mostly i think it is just the audio visual requirements is far higher than a two-dimensional interactive web app right if you you do the two-dimensional version it almost never goes wrong because you know if it's stuck it just hit refresh and it's back but but when there is a synchronous element to it if it requires coordination between different projectory from positions it's at a high streaming even when robin is not a problem we often run a you know defect microphone or one microphone out of microphone array that is bad uh or that why do i think when it's in here uh the left side your right ear or something like that um so so a lot of audio visual um SOP the standard operation procedures are now being accumulated in a professional um team so that whenever we run like the use advisor to the social innovation tour and so on they accumulate the technical expertise into the same same we used to work with different vendors and different localities and they don't always work to be frank okay okay so there's um supposedly a solution in in a way yeah it's it's relatively new as of last month's we finally converge on the sense that of professional equipment and we did a premiere um with the uh use advisor group uh in the executive unit because they're in our administration because there's many use advisors who want to come to the meetings but they cannot themselves come and so it stops the immediate need for the use advisors and they they're very happy to report uh that's the quality of audio visual is now much better than previously where they can uh only dial in through a purely audio connection and things like that okay that's great um how about like in terms of technology someone else seeing some groups from participating or have have you noticed something now our philosophy is that we only augment the face-to-face town hall format we never replace the face-to-face town hall format so if you have technical issues that prevents you from participating online you can always hop on the high-speed rail and participate face-to-face um and so i think we still need to hold that core design principle otherwise we exclude people yeah okay um i actually uh something from your conversation with Thania um i think you spoke about the different languages that my one has and uh there are quite a few apparently quite a few quite a few yes so how has has that some sort of like translating being up yeah so so we we actually uh just launched the first polis consultation that uh it has a auto translating feature uh in it uh we can't take credit for that because uh this functionality is sponsored by the i think Canadian government because everything there has to be bilingual obviously but we we we did benefit from that so so nowadays if you uh open the conversation at talk for gtw which i just pasted you uh you will say that it is properly bilingual now and this is a collaboration between the de facto american embassy in taiwan as well as the foreign this and if you don't have access if you see a english statement you can always click translate and it will show the bilingual counterpart in Mandarin chinese uh and the other way around too so that people can converse across english chinese barriers uh on us taiwan relationships but that is the easy part because the auto translation is very mature in this particular language pair but as i talk with Thania in other languages in taiwanese haka horlog and the indigenous we still have some ways to go before we can deliver a fully synchronous immersive translation experience like that in that we're very happy to partner with great open source vendors such as mozilla common voice in that particular format okay great um so what are the next steps for um right so i think uh a couple of things the first and more immediate uh thing is just to get away it's out to more designers worldwide because we certainly don't hold a patent to this idea many teams in many different places the decisions the others those the people who you know try this on second life god knows how many years ago have explored these ideas over and over right and so what we are now doing is just getting the word out that there is a a lot so to speak to infuse your your ideas and so just tomorrow actually i'm going to uh raise this awareness um in the um venez by by by annual that is the artists um by annual show that representing each country's um and so tomorrow um tomorrow is the rehearsal this saturday i'm going to appear uh in uh and um what i'm talking about the kind of embodied experience and how being immersive in a civic space can liberate oneself from the loneliness and of the exclusionary experience that the two-dimensional social media too often gives um people and so that is more of a artistic um intervention but we wish to uh raise the awareness of not just the policy or the lawmaking or the academic community but the wider artist community that can do um deliver experiences that are not maybe not that positive right because what we are out of speculative design of interaction design is still kind of positive but art uh it can raise that the dark part of of the experiences the the uneasy part of the experience but those are real emotions too and so we really want to evoke the artistic community and see what they can do out of this idea that sounds very interesting actually um such a friend them to be proposed the see that um the artistic input would um be connected to holo polis or would that be like a separate um initiative right right right you can look it up it's a taiwanese representation to the venice mayaniel uh and uh get the youth um three times six which is uh a um shape of a prison uh and in a kind of pan pan opticon um prison system so it's talking about how modern surveillance technologies and um confinements is the digital confinements essentially uh traps people uh into a um pan optic experience and that a surveillance regime basically from the capital and the state uh making um the people feel relatively powerless and the artist uh basically do a VR reinterpretation so that people who participate in the venice mayaniel gets three days scanned but a queer version of themselves that is cannot be profiled that they like the sound they look like and so on as they are so they even looks cyborg like uh reappear into the virtual um town hall so to speak and and so that people can focus on ideas and on the real issues at hunt instead of on judging and discriminating people based on biased profiles so it's a public installation and my talk this weekend will also be about how wearing a gear headset and piloting the robot i'm kind of myself trapped in a small physical space if you wear VR you know how is it like right you're you're restrained into um actually like a prison cell right you can't move very far if you're wearing a full for VR gear but at the same time thanks to virtual reality you can contribute much more uh into a shared um reality it's not just virtual personally but it as long as it's social and as long as your gestures are publicly recorded and uh held um you know accountable both to your expressions and official response to your expressions one feel liberated by contributing see in the way that is not constrained by your inner flesh presence so whether you can travel to the capital city it's no longer important whether your ideas resonate with people or around taiwan or around the world that becomes important so it is also liberating if we instead of saying virtual reality say shared reality definitely um you mentioned that there are like a few steps next steps right so first yeah right provoke the artist that's the thing on my mind because it's happening this Saturday and I think the other thing that's important as I said is to partner with research institutions and to have a more rigorous understanding of the before and after effect and basically share all of you faced any such experiences of experiencing the overview effect of viewing the earth from above from the international space station in virtual reality how did uh influence my my thinking to be more long-term more more generation of thinking once you're in that state and things like that we need to quantify that somehow or at least do a rigorous qualitative research so that's another next step okay cool sounds good um I was wondering this is as a whole a policy seems like a kind of a like a passionate project for you um so I was wondering what what would you like to see happen with holo polis for like I don't know in 10 years where would you see what would be the ideal situation right I think um with 5g network we finally see the possibility of delivering micro expressions that is to say the the whether you're focusing on something or your small like muscle reactions to other people's attention and so on the social cues um finally it become possible to deliver that in short enough latency when people are out there in the field at the moment to enable those like 4k immersive experience all the participants need to be on fiber optic link and in a very high-end space right but 5g promises that we can do this anywhere um so um yeah so I think in 10 years we'll see the 5g deployments that liberates people from having to attend those town hall meetings in a physical town hall that they can just participate wherever and whenever they want and it also promises that people can feel even more in tune more empathizing with each other because then we don't have to specifically curate a immersive experience on particular conversation it opens up the possibility of me uh just wearing a 360 um or a few 360 cameras anywhere uh in my jacket or whatever and enable people to literally step into my shoes uh and and just have a um real conversation of my lived in uh experience and so I think the freedom from particular buildings and localities and the freedom to have a low latency conversation around life experiences that's going to have in the next 10 years yeah I'm looking forward to that it sounds great yeah that's great yeah um but thank you so much I think I've received a lot of information and I'm much more um understanding about the whole experience now um I was wondering for the publication or for the story um do you have maybe some like materials like have you published some articles or I think you can ask Shu Yang do you have Shu Yang's email I don't know okay so I'll just give it to to you and Shu Yang can correspond I mean she's the the founder of the Holopolis project and the provocations and so I think that will be very useful for you to get in touch with her and also would you mind if we just publish our Skype conversation to to YouTube so that it can provoke maximally the artistic communities and so on yeah sure that's that's okay for me um I was wondering about the visuals if you have perhaps oh yeah they're yeah they're livestreams right so so you can just visit the the YouTube channel of our pdiss public digital innovation space and just browse through all the 360 livestreams and that actually gives you a good idea of how it feels like because we almost always have a copy on YouTube we use other platforms yeah okay um but this pays to you the the channel uh and like this particular one is me piloting a double robot uh to tour the national palace museum uh in Taiwan to visit some like japanese uh archaeological or japanese arts I think it's uh arts and crafts and you can see me basically facilitating two people online more than 3 000 views on the YouTube video and some of them just ask questions and so on and I reinterpret that and ask the the head of the museum who then uh converse with my robot which is an avatar of the collective intelligence so it's again uh livestream even though it's not helipolis because it's um that the consensus is not reached anywhere and there really is no binding power to those artifacts but it does show a really compelling interaction mode because people do want to see those treasures but they may not find the time to do it and then again anecdotal but quite a few people after this experience decide to hop on the high speed rails and actually pay a face-to-face visit so we have some anecdotal story that says it doesn't pull people away rather by giving people a taste of the immersion people will want the real thing even more yeah that's great um thank you so much for your time would you like to add something that I haven't um asked no I think these are these are excellent questions so yeah I think the main point is just that helipolis yet is not a well-defined system it is a series of explorations and sharing of those explorations and we adapt those learnings piecemeal into our day-to-day public service work but we would welcome a lot more explorations and a lot a lot more adaptations yeah that's great cool thank you so much and um enjoy your venice or virtual yeah my virtual trip to to venice yeah so yeah thank you and have a very good local time thank you you too bye