 My name is Lise Grande and as the president and on behalf of the United States Institute of Peace We're delighted to welcome everyone to this very special conversation With his Excellency President Hishulima, President of the Republic of Zambia It is also my pleasure to welcome special assistant to the president of the United States and senior director for Africa at the National Security Council Miss Dana Banks and Ambassador Johnny Carson who served with distinction as the US ambassador to Kenya, Uganda and Zimbabwe and as Assistant Secretary of State for African Affairs under President Obama We are also honored that Ambassador George Moose who is the vice chair of USIP's Board of Director and who served with distinction as the US ambassador to Bainan and Senegal and also as the Assistant Secretary of State for African Affairs under President Clinton will be here with us today moderating our discussion This has been a tough year COVID has devastated millions of lives and wreaked economic havoc across the world Enormous pressures have strained democratic processes and systems in some places to the breaking point in Africa There have been two coups in Mali one in Guinea a military transfer of power in Chad and Failed coups in Niger and now Sudan Against this backdrop Zambia's presidential elections last month stand out for the third time of the Republic's history power changed hands via the ballot box democratically and peacefully Zambia's presidential election offers important lessons for Africa and For all of us on the value of strengthening democratic institutions Ensuring political pluralism Expanding the electorate and protecting the vote We invite everyone to follow today's conversation on protecting democracy expanding opportunities and building peace in Africa and Zambia and around the world on Twitter with hashtag each Lima US IP It is my honor to welcome ambassador moose to the podium Good morning. Thank you. Thank you, Liz. I Have the distinct honor this morning of introducing to you His Excellency President of the Republic of Zambia Okay, and a each Lima Let me begin by offering my sincere congratulations to President each Lima Before his recent election which marks an important milestone in Zambia's Democratic progress today's conversation is especially timely Given the significant challenges that Zambia and indeed the entire African continent have faced during the past Year, not least of these of course is the COVID pandemic Which has impacted millions of lives across the continent and impacted every African economy And it also has placed a particular strain on Democratic institutions and democratic processes Despite these challenges just a few weeks ago for the third time in Zambia's history political power changed hands via the ballot box Not just democratically, but peacefully It was the culmination of a voting process that was widely seen as free fair and Transparent by both Zambians and by the international community On August the 24th At the conclusion of that process is excellence. Excellency. Okay, and a each Lima Was sworn in as the seventh presidents president of the Republic of Zambia in his campaign message the president urged Zambians to respect democratic values to address corruption to Restore the rule of law and to revitalize the economy a message that resonated with Zambian voters across the country It was also a message that stood in sharp contrast To the increasing threats to democracy in other parts of of Africa Zambia's 2021 presidential election offers important lessons and not only for Africa on the value of strengthening democratic institutions of ensuring political pluralism of expanding the electorate and to protecting the vote USIP shares President each elemas democratic vision and his aspirations for his country and for the African continent Mr.. President we are indeed honored that you and your delegation have agreed to join us here this morning I would like to invite you to the podium to share with us some of your perspectives on The recent elections, but moreover Their importance not only for for Zambia, but for the African continent Mr.. President, please the podium is yours. Thank you very much Thank you very much We're excited to be here Very excited to be here. We're grateful for the opportunity that has been given to us To engage with a US Institute of peace of course senior government officials and Other dignitaries that are here On behalf of the people of Zambia We're grateful very grateful for your warm reception and Inviting us to this platform this very important Institute in Fostering peace. I believe not just in your country but internationally peace security and stability are of great importance to us in our country in our region and Indeed in the world our main agenda Having won an election and a very difficult condition circumstances is Clearly to develop our economy for the benefit of our people Will not be possible. This will not be possible Without peace and stability without security We are under no illusion at all That we will never achieve our objectives of economic growth if Our country or regional world remains unstable Because it will take away the resources and stability to take away the resources will take away time that is required to reorganize our economy to benefit our people and Therefore important for us to address one or two things a couple things today one of which is really To indicate the power of democracy The power of the people to choose leadership that they believe Will answer their challenges or the challenges they face in our case the young people population large proportion of the population are young people women deliver this change in a democratic way and This is about a third time since 1991 putting 1991 together 1991 2121 is the third time that Zambians are delivering a peaceful change of leadership from one political part to another I Think this is important on our continent With the negative things happening other parts of the continent So I think something we can pick from there not just for Africa, but for other regions as a new government We are committed to human rights We're committed to restoring the rule of law We are committed to fostering democracy and what it offers For our people beyond our national boundaries Transparency is very important in the way we will run the country going forward Free media very important for the state We've already sent a message Clear message the media that they will self-regulate They are very excited about this as a media because they've been gagged for too long They've been attacked for too long in their cause of duty unnecessarily. This will be a thing of the past As I said civil liberties freedoms are very important to us fundamental to a democracy We committed to good governance as I said good governance cause with restoring the rule of law Just order in account Before we took over Before we assumed leadership for service the country was in a very difficult space a Woman widowed woman could not trade in a market Could not feed her children by trading in the market because party zealots cutters Hounded them out of markets Just by a word of mouth. We've restored normalcy in public places in our country That's what democracy can do with a little effort little money, but leadership is crucial I think it's part of lessons to learn leadership is very crucial on our continent in our individual countries The COVID-19 situation has not helped our situation or indeed yours and other countries And I think it's important that we as a global community Invoke and work together to mitigate the negative effects of the pandemic We have inherited a very very challenged economy Huge debt mountain We have to dismantle this because it's taking away resources for development Two elements in our budget stand out to only two January one is debt service Two is public sector pay They take away resources meant for Investment expenditure revenue generation and therefore opportunity for our people in terms of jobs in terms of business opportunities in terms of health education So we intend to deal with this issue vigorously and obviously We invite the support of Countries like yours and other countries that are part of the civilized world very important revolving around issues Issues revolving around this matter Is of paramount importance to us because we know if we do not bring COVID under control We have no chance in hell to revive the economy and also the first world will Not have done or achieved much by vaccinating your people and Our people are not being vaccinated because we will become a perfect host or hosts for mutations Pandemic will mutate in our countries. So you will not be successful here Unless we are successful everywhere We are committed as a new government to fiscal discipline Microstability Growing our economies of paramount importance, that's what will support the social side. I like talking by way of equations mathematical One side is the economy one side is social support There's no way we can make social support viable this part of the equation if the economy is deliric If debt is choking us. So we intend to use The mandate given to us by the people zombie to get this equation balanced properly and working for our people international support in this area is of absolute necessity But we will do things that are within our control Like controlling our own extravagant expenditure habits reigning in on this so we can release resources for development but with that it means we will demonstrate commitment will walk the talk and Requesting for international support should make it easier for you to look at our case. I think our case is special Our government has been dubbed the new dawn government Some call it freedom day freedom has come literally that There's a lot of messaging around just citizen feeling free at last freedom brings Entrepreneurship To the table brings opportunity to the table environment is very important to us We cannot accelerate economic development because we need it at the expense of opportunities for future generations We've set up the ministry of green economy and Environment we've set up the ministry of small medium-scale enterprises to combine the needs of Creating opportunities for our people but at the same time making sure that we do this in a responsible way In this environmentally sustainable Because of where I am this platform you give me I just want to confirm that We're committed to Making our contribution Active contribution in fostering peace stability security on our continent This top priority again a mathematical relationship or expression this equation of economic development one side Cannot happen without peace and stability security on the other The two are hand in glove We intend to play our part Actively Zambia is committed to taking steps That are all assure stability on our continent on the global platform Zambia's efforts Combined with the regional efforts regional economic groups Sadiq where we belong African Union the United Nations Countries like yours That know the dangers of insecurity You know it. Well, we all know it very well. We know the damage it can cause and The social friction and suspicions that can arise if this is not managed properly. So play our part We want to cooperate more with yourselves this institute This government this institute other governments other relevant institutes Would like to work with you in a meaningful way not tomorrow But like yesterday because the threat of what's happening in Mozambique is worrying us. I must confess From Lusaka to the Mozambique border is only 30 minutes away by helicopter We can't wait. We shouldn't wait until the situation degenerates and Walks through our borders. Let's work together in this area So Relationships with this institute Very important to us US government Indeed Are the members of the global community? President thank you for the opportunity to share our views on this platform Go place. Yeah, I'm going to join us here. Thank you very much. And may I invite our? Our patent, please May I invite director banks and Ambassador Carson to join us as well? Mr. President, we're delighted that you have agreed to join us in this format because it gives Certainly all of us, but particularly you an opportunity to perhaps delve a little more deeply into the themes that you outlined in your excellent remarks Indeed And I wish like this to be a real conversation But let me see if I can get the get us going I Will tell you that The Zambian elections your victory in those elections was something that was was enthusiastically achieved In its own right, but also because as Our president to these round a outlined in her remarks, we have been sadly witnessing over the last several years A serious backsliding when it comes to democracy on the African continent and let's be clear beyond And so the Zambian elections gave us great hope But we also know that this was a long fought and hard-won victory it and we are keen to Learn the lessons of your experience in Making it possible For this third transfer a peaceful transfer of power through the belt box in Zambia You alluded earlier to the importance of leadership. There's no question here and and I think we need to emphasize that but There there must be other lessons That I hope you will agree to share with this Not the least of which is a question of organization my elections and electoral victories don't just happen They they require work. They require structure. They require Conceptualization and they require organization. Would you would you take this opportunity to help us understand better? Thank you very much well in yes, I think the lessons for us are very clear And they can easily be isolated in categories, I think that are logical the first is a realization by players Participants in a particular country like ours that democracy is the way to go that we believe in the values around in a democratic Dispersation Because if we didn't believe in that we would be looking for other ways of seeking public office We wouldn't because we don't believe in those other ways autocratic related ways Violent ways no So we are stuck with a democratic route. I think that's important Yeah, it's an important lesson because if we you wave away from there as a group as a political party You are likely to fall number one number two To understand that the environment is difficult So to be strong to be focused It's important. We went through quite a lot and most of you are not aware that we were detained 15 times and For many if They would probably not survive 15 detentions So resilience because you focused number three strategy strategy Strategy in terms of what we want to achieve how to do it tactics We should have in an office much earlier We believe we won a couple of elections 2015 2016 by election but we did not assume public office because We did not bat an upset in things We think the election results were marginal Imaginary in our favor we believe this not for today's debate. That's how I believe But because it the results were not decisive. We allowed the people who Countervotes and the regime in place to manipulate the results. So we set out in 2021 towards 2021 To win number one by a large margin a landslide I Think we achieved that And it was difficult to manipulate to play around with that So the lesson for others is to to focus get your strategies, right? win by big margin So no arguments but to do that you have to mobilize you have to mobilize you have to lead especially The portion of the population which is largest the youth I think we did that indeed what others heard from outside The youth nicknamed me Bali It was really an attachment and that the youth made that this is the team that can Cross us over so So we did that Number two we understood that if we just won although we would win by a large margin without protecting the vote It to be an exercise in futility So we put in a place so we put in place a program for what protection we did that I Think these are the two key things but to achieve all of that organization Leadership getting to know your voters getting to know what they want because for us We drove our campaign on the platform change Change to do what economy economy. What does that mean food? Jobs business opportunities Better health all of that so the messaging then becomes a nation. I think that's my name. Thank you Thank you, Mr. President that you make it sounds so simple But we as we listen to you. Yeah, we begin to appreciate just how much work and thought Goes into the building of a successful mobilization that in turn leads to successful election director banks The Biden administration has made it very clear that democracy is going to be the central pillar of It's foreign policy and that was certainly Reiterated strongly when the president addressed the General Assembly just two days ago And I wonder if you could share with us The the ways in which and I'm sure this came up in the course of the president's meeting yesterday with the vice Vice-president Harris as well share with us how the administration conceives of the US role and being a partner for democracy in Africa and elsewhere around the world Thank You ambassador moves and thank you to the US IP for for holding and hosting this important conversation And for welcoming President he Shalima here I was at the honor of being president to inauguration and Which was less than 30 days ago now and to go from there to see you here It's truly I think remarkable and a strong signal to the continent and really Exemplifies Zambia does and your victory and what you have done so far even Exemplifies what the Biden Harris administration wants to do in terms of promoting democracy And as we've heard this week in President Biden's speech at the UN General Assembly As is stated in our interim national strategic guidance Democracy and democratic ideals are the foundation of our policy both at home and abroad But particularly in our US Africa policy because we firmly believe that with you know The trends of authoritarianism that we see around the globe and certainly also in Africa that we need to counter that with strong countries and democracies who have shown not just stated but exemplified and exhibited a commitment to democratic ideals because it is democratic ideals It is strong democracies with accountable institutions That their populations hold them to account with commitment to the rule of law all of these things can deliver peace and Prosperity for their people so that is the basis and that is the foundation of our US Africa policy for this administration and we are really pleased Beyond that Zambia exemplifies that and is here to be able to spread that message and to you know Serve as a model for other countries on the continent. Thank you very much I'm sure that'll be very very reassuring message to me But Ambassador Carson Johnny if I might we have both Been laboring in this vineyard for many many many years together and we we know well the practical challenges and difficulties of for partners friends of Africa to promote Promote democratic development institutions you not only in your role here US IP but also On the board of directors of the National Democratic Institute and I wonder We have both I think as we watched the developments of recent developments questioned ourselves About what it is we need to do differently or do better in a practical way Not just in terms of our rhetorical commitment that is a practical matter and and I wondered if you would share with us and with the president your your thoughts about What lessons we should take from? The Zambian experience Ambassador moose George. Thank you very much for the question. I'd like to also Express my pleasure at Bing with President Hachalima and congratulate him again for his outstanding victory in Zambia I think it does constitute a victory for the people of Zambia and a victory for democracy on the continent If I could I'd like to say Just a few words about democracy and and some lessons Your victory is an encouraging signal that the demand for democracy in Africa remains very very strong and That there is an overwhelming desire among people to be able to select their leaders to be able to know that their government is one that they have chosen and One that is going to be responsive to their desires The polling data out there strongly tells us Based on what we see that an overwhelming Majority of Africans support multi-party democracy They support term limits for presidents. They're opposed to military coup d'etats and they want governments that are responsive to their people But as ambassador moose pointed out and as your own experience is probably tell you Achieving democracy is an enormous challenge We also see Based on what's been happening around the continent these days that Democracy is still enormously fragile in Africa and that sustaining democratic progress is At risk in many places and it's at risk in many places I think fundamentally for several different reasons which You and other leaders will have to grapple with and some of which you've already spoken enormous democratic Backsliding people trying to change constitutions to keep themselves in power It's also a reflection of a rising authoritarianism in Africa Where a dozen leaders have enhanced their power through various means and Now we have a couple of other things that are out there That are of concern and one clearly Is the rise of violent extremism and you see it very closely in your own neighborhood For the first time in northern Mozambique and that is a challenge and then finally Most disturbing is the return of the military coup d'etat Something that we thought we had Permanently pushed aside and these are issues which are there You've managed to keep your military in the barracks and neutral That has not been the case in Chad Mali most recently Guinea and attacks In Sudan just last week all of those are challenges out there There are lessons if you learn but your victory your victory Is an indication that the demand signal for democracy and elected leadership? Democratic governance multi-partyism is alive and well and that people want it Thanks Johnny Oh This person let me turn it back to you because As I said, I think many of us friends of Africa Are questioning Whether we have it right in terms of how we go about supporting Democrats and Promoting democracy and I wondered if you would talk to us about the role of your external partners not just in the general but Now in what ways have we made your life? easier And in what ways might we have complicated your life perhaps unintentionally I'm very mindful for example, mr. But of the the power of incumbency how difficult it is for an opposition party to challenge a party in power and Often times that power of that party in power Is associated with relationships to external partners in that indeed and would you talk to us a little bit about how? What can we do to help sort of mitigate? that imbalance to double the playing field for Movements democratic movements that are seeking to challenge existing authority. I think it's a very important Issue of raised and but before I drove into that just to express my agreement to my colleagues on the left deep Knowledge that they bring to this discussion and which we share There is no democracy a genuine democracy that is Shielded from what's going on elsewhere It doesn't exist So a democracy within national boundaries or democracies in a regional Organization like ours southern African development community is in the context of what's happening elsewhere. I Think it is important. We see things from the right Angle Otherwise we miss the point Our democracies in Africa are affected by what's happening in the global community Who pose in which direction for what reasons What's the interest of global players in Africa On the continent what do they want Resources influence sometimes partnerships So I think I want to dwell on partnerships other than other issues that interests Countries outside of Africa to take interest in what's going on in Africa So I think partnerships are very very important. So you only You get your partners. You choose your partners because you have certain things in common So earlier you asked me a question. I said, how did you do it? I said first believing that democracy is the way so equally it's important to agree that in Working with others that have an influence in your own country whether you like it or not Is to try and isolate or identify those that you may share common values very important common values That democracy Is the one that should deliver for the people every time people must be put at the center our young people so we think that In as much as we share values with yourselves Constitutionalism rule of law human rights Working against vices such as corruption Which really damages our country Beyond what some of you may even be conscious of If you look at the debt issue I talked about in our country. Yes a huge debt portfolio. What drove What are the factors that led to such a huge debt mountain as when 10 years ago our dead position was around $2 billion after hippie HIPPIC it was called hippie completion. We achieved that at a great cost Wedges did not go up for a while public wedges and the case was made that everyone must contribute Towards taking our debt out Ten years down the road We have a huge debt what motivated this partially corruption where Infrastructure the appetite in the guise of infrastructure money was bought Balance sheet was distorted money was borrowed borrowed, but not all of it worked To help the country Corruption so if we talk again is corruption with we search around who else will support us in the fight against corruption I Hope I'm making sense. Yes, absolutely. I hope I'm making sense. Yeah, who else? So who also does not believe in corruption because we have to relate with other people We we're not an island. We're global village. So this is where alignment to values Will be durable will be long-lasting because you don't have to persuade Others to share your views because you already have a shared views based on values very important I will not drive it beyond there. I think you understand what I'm saying Again We need to know that we cannot run a country's elections Pure on our own We need minimum standards. What what would we say a minimum standards for a democratic election? To be called an election which is free and fair So Electro bodies that manage our elections. How do they do it? How independent of that? How will they ensure that the results reflect that we use the will and wishes of the people we've seen it before So we're working on those issues But we can only do that together with others that believe in what we believe in and then we can Off opportunities for people I want to believe that If we leave Say countries on the African continent on their own purely without supporting them we risk seeing a backslide in democracy because the issue of colleagues wanting to extend their stay in office beyond What people have said citizens have said ten years is enough. Whatever years you agree Some are here extending the term to six seven years. I mean if you have six years seven years in office Seven plus seven is 14 plus seven is 21 No Because the other matter is that Leadership at that level at the president's Must not be really pushed because it benefits the occupant financially when we drive it that way People want to stay there forever So I think we need to create alternatives For leaders in Africa did clear alternatives that when they leave office, they will still lead a decent life and That brings me to the issue of Despite the past for us how We were treated We are determined that the colleagues that have exit Don't have to fear that they'll be put through what they put us through They're very important so that they know that they'll be safe They know that the rule of law applies to them as well that they will be protected but Yet to fight again as corruption or continue because it will be run professionally by oversight institutions And we will not use a political hand for vengency for vindictiveness for retribution But more to recover assets that belong to people of Zambia because they are the owners Give to Caesar what is Caesar's but without abusing human rights without threatening people to Be put where they shouldn't be so I think it's safety valve. I've been observing this issue Yes, it's safety valve is very important for colleagues to know that they can exit office and still a bit no more decent life and I think sometimes I know Countries like yours have provided platforms to ease in Leaders that leave office. I think we must create those opportunities No, that's it's an excellent time of spirit and you're absolutely right This is something that to which we've given thought in the past in your notion of providing an exit Yeah, a an honorable exit for for those who are leaving power. Otherwise, they have no incentive to leave They develop other ideas they develop other changing constitutions What what we want to assure you and I would be abusive a little bit the platform you've given me I send a message to people of Zambia We should not entertain To create special favors for those occupying public office so they can stay in office longer We've had constitutional review commissions in our country that have clearly stated My elder has said the the desire of a people on our continent is with term limits So that we can turn over leaders and leaders can focus on saving the people and providing leadership To improve the lives of the people during the period that allowed to save the people and I think This appetite desire to say this one is special and they must stay in office forever breeds autocratic Behaviour just filled us through without even noticing it and we shouldn't do that And I think the global Democratic community should support African countries not to encourage Our people a small number to do things like that. They end up ugly Thank you. Thank you this president if I just might Tease out something that I think was implicit in what you said about the issue of corruption Yeah, as we always say it takes two to tango and did I think when it comes to the issues of principle, there is Perfect alignment for example with the US government and other partners who share this concern about corruption But I do think that we all of us Need to examine exactly how our practices Align with our principles when it comes to this issue a great and And we have not been very good frankly and in understanding And dealing with if you will below root causes of corruption and how it becomes embedded in an endemic to especially developing countries which are in In a weakened position to deal with powerful external actors. So I I think there was a bit of that implicit In what you said and I wanted to do director banks Returning again to the biden administration's very forthright Pronouncements in terms of its hopes and aspirations for for africa and we know that as the president said earlier democracy cannot flourish in the context of economic deprivation And threats to security And I know already the administration has begun to articulate a if you will a strategy And could you share a little bit about how you how the administration sees These elements of how we hope to Bring them together into a strategy that would address precisely the kinds of concerns that the president raised Sure, absolutely. Um, so I think the first sort of visible element of the strategy that we will see shortly is The summit for democracy that you know, president biden committed to holding During the campaign and we are looking at scheduling for before the end of the year Where we'll invite Selected countries to talk about you know the ideals the tenants the foundations of democracy And to help serve as an example and a model for other countries So they can share and export Their democratic experiences and look no democracy is perfect as you mentioned democracies are fragile and require work And so this will be the beginning of a process That will extend throughout the following year with a follow-up Summit later at the end of the following year But I think in general you've you've already seen as well the president talk about his commitment to combating corruption He issued a national security memorandum. I'm talking about combating corruption again, which erodes democracy and as you mentioned President he's shalima. So Again, when we know that when populations when people Have an eroded confidence in their governments who deliver for them, then that also impacts economic prosperity in a country it, you know, it draws away investors who would be looking at investing in a country and providing more jobs and opportunities for the people of the country so We combating corruption is I think another key element of our strategy in order to make countries more prosperous to help them recover even from The economic effects of covet 19 as well as the health the very real health Impacts and not just covet 19 But also the following pandemic and as we saw the president host His summit on covet 19 yesterday and the commitments that were made in terms of providing additional doses around the world to lower middle income and middle income countries Um, so I think these things in tandem lead to what we're trying to do on the continent in terms of increasing economic growth and prosperity through the Build back together campaign of the prosper africa initiative Which brings together 17 u.s. Government departments and agencies to increase two-way trade mutually beneficial trade for the people of africa and for americans And with a specific focus on encouraging investors Women investors and small and medium enterprises So I was very encouraged to hear president about your creation of a ministry focused on small and medium enterprises So again, zambia really is leading in the way as an exemplar of the us africa policy that this administration is trying To to promote so I think you if you look at all of these elements How democracy delivers for its people how combating corruption increases confidence in the people and In the in investors And that can bring greater security So that's the final element of the policy and you talked about I know your Concern with what's going on in northern mosin beak And security and really if you look at the root causes It is about lack of opportunity. It's lack of you know jobs and education So and and even though it will take some time to address We have to start looking at the root causes, which we are Which while we're focusing as well on youth And making sure that they're fully engaged and have employment opportunities that will deter them From taking some of these more extreme elements While also working with our colleagues in the security sector and department of defense to look at the very real security Challenges in the region, which is necessary to address at the same time But we we look to our regional partners Um, we look to host governments We will partner with them to lead the way on this addressing the security challenges, but also addressing the root causes Great In the interest of being also again very candid mr. President I will say that we too have learned some very important lessons over the last 20 years we are We have we just marked the 20th anniversary of 9 11 We know all of the structures and Strategies that were put in place in the wake of 9 11 to try to deal With both the threat to us directly but The growing threat of violent extremism to everybody in the rest of the world And yet here we are we're 20 years on That threat is still very much with us and I wanted I wanted to turn to Ambassador Carson who knows Mozambique as well as As any of us and of course who also served as our ambassador next door in Zimbabwe and and perhaps reflect a little bit on Particularly the thinking that's going on in this house at us IP is we're thinking about this This this ongoing threat and challenge of dealing with Violent extremism how it relates to those other agendas No, thank you George and I think that we have to Take the issue of violent extremism Very very seriously But as we look at Trying to combat violent extremism We shouldn't focus all of our energy And activities on looking at military solutions Because military solutions may in fact Drive an immediate cessation of activity or a decrease in activity But they don't in effect address the root causes Of the violence that has emerged And looking at issues of violent extremism whether it is in northern Mozambique Whether it is in the northeastern corner of Nigeria and the Lake Chad Basin Or whether we're looking at the situation in Mali and the Sahel It is important to Determine and we try to do a lot of that here in this building to determine What are the drivers Of these various conflicts Why is it that we have seen people Turn away from civil responses to militant Responses and how do you dig down into those and find out what they are And I think in doing so it's important to look at those root causes But it's also looking at how you build Understanding and resilience in communities Working with women working with youth working with traditional leaders Working with local government Leaders in the in the in the process to help address those root causes Help to build resilience and help to reduce the fragility That is a part of the situation In the case of Mozambique Even before the jihadists and religious element came into play It was in fact an area of the country Whose importance and wealth was increasing while The impoverishment and the marginalization of the communities was decreasing And what you have is a period of enormous neglect In a region of great wealth Which has now been exploited by individuals coming out coming in and taking advantage Of the anger and resentment and marginalization that has already been there for long periods Yeah Mr. I was going to be I'm being reminded that you have another life And other obligations to meet and we certainly don't want to prevent you from doing so But I just wanted to say and I want to give you an opportunity to talk one Let me just say that what Johnny just described From my perspective was one of the most impressive aspects of your Mobilization indeed indeed. I mean what what you succeeded in doing was building those relationships With community groups with youth with women absolutely so that indeed There was a A reasonable hope on their part that this was going this being a part of this movement Was going to help them achieve their aspirations So In a way Johnny, I think What we would like to understand more and is exactly how how you can see that how you did it Anyway, I would like to give you an opportunity to yeah, I think to Exactly go ahead. Go ahead. Yes. Go ahead sir. No, no, no just a little tag on the root causes of some of these Negative things that are dreadful Dreadful from any angle I like what is what I'm hearing here What we went through as an opposition party in our country Was a systematic marginalization By the party in office and name calling Abuse characterization That We actually were viewed as not worthy citizens Of our country And we had to come around That characterization To make sure that citizens didn't believe the things that we're saying it is possible For a regime to create an imaging imagery position of a genuine democratic opposition party Which leads to marginalization Which leads to exclusion That's dangerous So I just wanted to share that part that one of the things we did then From the opposition Is to go out to communities Even those that were made to believe that the country must be run on ethnic grounds And on that basis economic exclusion Job opportunities Business opportunities and literally no contracts To do business Even when people owned a small asset like a house tenants got scared to rent Such a property because of that characterization So we had to undo all of those issues By going to community to say we're here to reunite this country this country has been divided on many, you know Angles so Reuniting the country is one of our key flagships of course economy rebuilding we discussed that but reuniting the country Liberty we we went out to do that because we were marginalized ourselves Our businesses were attacked right left center And people lost jobs In the civil service because they were suspected of being members of our party So it was such a like an impossible mission But we came around that by going to communities using community leaders using church leaders using the people who influence community This route is dangerous This route will cause something we don't want So we worked on the message of reuniting the country the message of inclusion And not exclusion The message of opportunity for So I think if you parallel or Mozambique issues there could be elements that Could have been allowed to degenerate Either by geographical region by distance or by Whatever separating You know factors so we're working on it for us even now On a fact that we are one zombie of one nation And that's what our founding father Kenneth every counter the first president taught us so so we're reincarnating those Issues of unity inclusion access to opportunity for all And I think partially that one has the election and we will leave by that So that no zombie and feels That because there's a new european government then they will be marginalized That will Work against so I just thought I should draw that parallel with Mozambique because we are we are neighbors with Mozambique We were feeling the issues of that niche and those are I think good breeding grounds for negativity and I think Africa As a continent we should learn from those wherever is a leader at a particular time must bring all citizens To the table and allow citizens to compete To access opportunities. We are determined to do that. Thank you Mr. President, I want to thank you very much I think from my perspective what you just said maybe the most important lesson that we should all draw From your experience your leadership And and the progress that zambia has made continues to make in the area of democracy I appreciate also your We've been remiss in not invoking the memory of president kawanda in this conversation He was the first african president I ever met in 1970 Thank you for doing that as well. But most of all, thank you for honoring us with your presence here today Thank you for sharing with us as you can tell we are eager. We're hungry to understand better What we can do better as partners and friends to ensure The continued democratic progress for a continent which is very dear to us and you have helped us immensely In doing that, we hope there will be other opportunities. You will always be welcome in this house So thank you. Thank you all. I want to thank our distinguished panelists director back Mr. Carson and I above all want to thank the audience that has followed us online And hope that you will continue to follow Our conversations here at the u.s. Institute of peace. So thank you all very much