 My name is Ruth McCormick, I'm with the Business Council for Sustainable Energy and I'm pleased to serve as the moderator on this panel this almost afternoon. Resilience is a word that is beginning to percolate to the top of the public policy discussion. It's an issue about which utilities have always had to prepare and be equipped for, but it's definitely one that is being discussed a lot more recently and I think that a lot of that has to do with the increased cost in dealing with some of the post-disaster issues, especially those that we experienced in the fall of 2017. So we have a great set of speakers on the panel to speak to us from their perspectives about where they sit on this issue with infrastructure and resilience. So our first speaker that we're going to start with is Asaf Nagler and Asaf is the senior director of ABB Inc., which is an equipment and automation supplier for utilities and industrial operators and we will hear from him and then we will individually introduce the next set of speakers in turn. Thanks. Thank you very much. I'm going to mix it up and I'm going to sit because I'm a casual kind of guy. So ABB is an electrification automation company. On the electrification side, we build power grid equipment that goes anywhere from the substation all the way down to the electrical junction box sitting behind that power outlet right there. So if it moves electricity, we make it and on the automation side, we focus on industrial automation, industrial robots. We make motors and drives for wastewater treatment facilities. We make control software for the power grid and for electricity market providers, the ISOs as they were. In the U.S., we have 24,000 employees across 50 states, 50 large manufacturing facilities in the U.S. And I want to talk about three things when it comes to resilience. I want to talk about grid resilience. I want to talk about the role of government in grid resilience and I want to talk about the grid of the future and what resilience means going forward. So resilience means a lot of things to a lot of people and it can include anything from a low-tech solution to a high-tech solution. General common definition is the ability to restore power after an event or after an outage. There are many ways to do it from low-tech solutions like tree trimming to high-tech solutions like a digital grid or bulletproof power transformers, which we make. So there are many ways to get there and the way I kind of look at it is it generally involves a bunch of layers of technology and solutions that we provide. Now, I want to use one example to kind of bring it home to make sense for folks and it also happens to be a good example of government policy that helped build a resilient grid. So down in Houston, Texas, there's a local utility there called center point energy. In Houston, there are used to big events like hurricanes which tend to impact the power grid and I want to give some examples here. So in 2008 during hurricane Ike, they had about 2.2 million customers and 2.1 million of them lost power and took them 10 days to restore power to only 75% of customers. That means after 10 days, still 500,000 people were without power. They decided after that to make some significant investments in their power grid to become more resilient and as a result, Hurricane Harvey, which is a similar caliber storm that happened in 2017, they had 2.4 million customers this time. Only 900,000 lost power and within four days, 95% of their customers had power restored. And the only reason they couldn't restore power to the remaining 40,000 was because flooding prevented them from getting to those locations to restore power. So how did that happen? What did they do? They made significant investments in smart meters. They deployed about 2.4 million of them. They deployed intelligent smart grid switching equipment, about 900 of them, which allowed them to reroute power and understand what's going on in the grid. They automated 30 substations and they deployed advanced distribution management software which allowed them to detect faults, know exactly where it happens, identify the problem and then within the same software, integrate with their truck crews to roll the right truck to the right location with the right equipment. So this was a long process they did over the past number of years, but the benefits were significant, so I want to list a few. So 1.5 million outages were restored without a single customer phone call. The grid just detected it on its own and was able to deploy it. They saved 1.7 million gallons of fuel from not having to roll all of these trucks to these individual locations and they avoided 15,000 tons of CO2 into the air. So it was no small feat. The benefits not only to the customers as well as the environment were large would not have been possible without a significant amount of ABB equipment and technology as well as some of our other competitors out there. But importantly, a $200 million smart grid investment grant from the Department of Energy is what jumpstarted this project. And so I think it's important to highlight that fact because we're sitting here talking about policy and how it can affect grid resilience. So a lot of energy policy these days focuses at the state level, but there is an important role for the federal government and I would say that that role there is in technology development and deployment. And as we see in the example of Centerpoint, it was that big investment by the U.S. government to help utilities get acquainted with new technology, to pilot it, to try it out and kind of get them over the hump. And that's something that I think we'd like to see continuing to go forward. The grid of the future is going to be flexible. It's not just distributed, but it's flexible. What does that mean? It's better real-time matching of demand, of load, and of generation. And in order to have that kind of real-time flexibility in your grid, the grid is going to have to be digital and it's going to have to be automated. And when we talk about digital and we talk about automation, there are all sorts of new reliability issues that come up. One of them is cyber security threats that may come up and that are continuing to come up. I highlight these two things to see, to note where there are two great opportunities for government policy to help with resilience. And that is on the flexibility side and on the cyber security side. The U.S. government has tremendous resources in the national labs, on computation, on software, and on intelligence. And the Department of Energy is already doing a lot of work in that field working with folks like us, working with utility companies on trying to do better threat assessment and deterrence from cyber threats and I think that should continue. And there's also a lot of opportunity for U.S. technology leadership in building a flexible grid. It's not just about, you know, wind, solar, and batteries, it's how do they work together as a system in order to deliver efficient power that's based on real-time needs and real-time demand. And so with that, I'm going to kind of wrap up and turn to whoever's next. Okay, our next speaker is Zolaika Strong and Zolaika is the Director of Sustainable Electrical Energy with the Copper Development Association, or CDA. And CDA is the Market Development Engineering and Information Services Arm of the Copper Industry. And copper, of course, is fundamental to our electric system given it makes up much of the wires that we use. So we'll turn it over to Zolaika. Thank you, Ruth. I'm going to stand up just because it's a little easier for everyone to see me. But I'm still going to be casual. I thank you, everyone, for ESI and for Ruth for the introduction. My conversation or my topic that I'm going to cover is energy storage. It's going to just actually highlight a few key points that you talked about. So hopefully it'll be all integrated. So just to let everyone know, it's always a perk in everyone's mind-wise copper involved in this energy dialogue and what our role is in the markets. And it's really to take the copper from behind the wall and bring it out to the forefront into the discussion. CDA represents the entire supply chain of the copper industry from mining all the way to fabricating of various copper products. So within the energy scheme or within the energy world, we're looking at wire cabling, bus bar, some components, flat components of copper as well that are used in many systems. And what I do is I'm the energy expert for CDA. So my background is not from the mining world. I always say I learn copper on the job. I come from the energy sector having come from FERC and representing the utilities with the EI. And the platform that we are setting up is really to be a facilitator of information to support policies in these markets to be able to give everyone an understanding of ancillary industries like ours that really benefit from the advances in the markets. So that leads me to talking a little bit about building on the conversation of resiliency and talking about a specific application like energy storage. And really understanding the market trends and the dynamics in the market and where we're at. Eight years ago when I started with CDA, I actually brought up the topic of energy storage being a facilitator to address the intermittency of renewable energy. And now it's kind of looking at it ahead eight years later. It's now becoming an advanced technology that can really help bring some of the flexibility to the grade which you talked a little bit about and provide something that is not happened before in the electrical market, which is actually storing electricity safely. Being able to meet the demand, regulating frequency, giving the utilities more of an opportunity to control the load and how it is shared and also how the consumer uses it. So currently North America is the largest global market for energy storage products and that includes pumped hydro and an array of other technologies as I go through my presentation. From the federal side, I'll talk a little bit about FERC order 841 in a bit. But on the federal side, from a policy perspective, there's not a lot of stimulus here but there are a lot of states and there continue to be more and more states that are facilitating policies that will be that are impactful for the markets. The first and biggest one that I think is in the news a lot regarding emissions and some of the transitions that the state is seeing is in California. California passed a law 2514 that required the state's largest investor in utility deploy about 1300 megawatts of energy storage by 2020. And the California PUC, the Public Utility Commission, actually furthered the order pushing it to 2017. And it's really, it requires, this is one of the first requirements, which requires the utilities to procure an additional 500 megawatts of energy behind the meter for distribution grid connected energy storage. And this continues on. Other states have followed California's footsteps. Massachusetts being one. They have similar but smaller mandates of procurement targets. New York is another one. They have more advanced ambitious targets. All of us that understand the New York dynamic, you've got New York State and you've got New York City. And so those storage devices will be really helpful in kind of controlling the demand for a very diverse footprint. And then there's Oregon. Oregon instituted a small energy storage procurement mandate. And in 2017, one of the state's largest utilities, Portland General Electric, announced a plan to deploy 39 megawatts of energy storage over the coming years. And so energy storage is much more participatory in a lot of the state conversations and it's continued to grow in states like New Mexico, Colorado, Washington, Arizona, Oregon, Hawaii. So it's pretty advanced on the state level. From the perspective of the federal government, while we haven't seen a lot legislatively outside of the conversation of technologies, FERC has actually taken initiative just this year to remove any barriers to participation of electric storage resources and the capacity energy and ancillary services market. The reason why storage kind of resonates with me is I started at FERC in 2003, two weeks before the big northeast blackout. And one of the big conversation pieces at that point was the fact that you weren't able to, the generators weren't able to provide the ancillary services quick enough, which is responsive services to be able to meet all of the fluctuations on the grid. And if we had a battery, as simple as think of your, I don't know, your battery in your, I can't even think phones, but energizer batteries or anything that you use, Duracell or whatnot, you have that instantaneous energy electricity to be able to support your systems. And so this need, I think, is very important that FERC has been involved in this conversation. I think that it really kind of gives energy storage then a further platform on the federal, from the federal regulatory perspective. And so I've kind of laid the landscape out for policies and states and what we're doing, but what is it? I mean, I think people have very diverse perspectives of what energy storage is. The way that I am going to kind of segment things out is I'm going to talk about utility scale energy storage, which is kind of what is being integrated at the state level and what is being mandated by certain states and by FERC, as well as the, some of the, excuse me, I lost my spot, on the distributed side as well. So utility scale, what I refer that to is that systems that are located on the utility side of a customer's electricity meter and they're either controlled by the grid operators directly or are actively participating in the energy and ancillary markets. So talk a little bit about what ancillary markets are with kind of correlating it to the blackout. If you had quicker response, you would have been able to control the system a little bit more. There are five segments, application segments in energy storage. There's the application for generation capacity. There's TND, asset optimization. There's frequency regulation. There's renewable ramping, which has always been a very big component of energy storage. And it really kind of helps to, you know, to set the landscape out for what some of these batteries are going to cover on the utility side. So just really quickly is to cover distributed energy storage is the second, the second kind of area that I wanted to talk about. And that's really, it refers to the systems that are installed behind the meter. And this is where the goal is for the customers to be able to reduce electricity costs by using storage to optimize consumption based on the rate structure and the availability of on-site generation. So this kind of helps address instantaneous demand concerns on the battery storage devices. And kind of bringing it back to the grid, I think that it's really important in order to be able to provide that flexibility on the grid to integrate storage devices to be able to stabilize any kind of intermittency. You know, we're looking at advances on the grid that are going to be coming from electric vehicles. And we're looking at a lot of building optimization through green build and energy storage plays a big role in all that to be able to ensure that the reliability of the system continues. And that we're not looking at a ramping up of the generation resource. And why do we care? You know, from the perspective of the copper industry, as these markets grow, just to throw a quick statistics, 60% of all copper is sold specifically in the electrical market. We're looking at these advances as huge impacts for our industry. We're also looking to make sure that we can meet the demand of all of these technologies. And we're really looking to make sure that those folks out there are educated on the right material components that are necessary in ensuring the reliability from one side and resiliency to rebuild on the other side that you're looking at the things from a full life cycle assessment. So hopefully covered everything everyone wanted to talk about. I thank you for your time and I'll bring back to you. Our next presenter will be Joseph Eves, who is the director of government relations for the National Electrical Manufacturers Association, which represents electrical equipment and medical imaging manufacturers. We all understand electrical equipment because we all have electrical equipment at home that can be impacted by major storm events. And so I will turn the time over to Joseph to enlighten us on your perspectives. Thank you, Ruth. And thank you everyone for being here. And since my member company is sitting next to me, I will follow his lead and stay seated during my presentation. But thank you. As Ruth indicated, I'm with NEMA, Electrical Manufacturers Association. We represent about 350 member companies who have made products in and around the electrical space. So anywhere from as, I think ABB is one of a prime example to where making things are companies that make things for the grid all the way to the wiring and the devices and electronic equipment you'll find in the buildings that we're in today and even the lighting that's above us. So we cover about essentially 55 different industries under NEMA. So we do a lot of work on energy, especially grid investments. But then also what do buildings, what role do buildings and other facilities play in making sure that when there's an outage, what role do they play, what role can they play? So I want to focus my presentation a little bit on critical facilities and the role that they play and what they can do to help respond and react and prepare really for an event, whether it be a natural disaster, a cyber attack or what have you and how they can still continue to provide those critical services that they need to provide. So with that, like I said, whether it's due to a weather event, a cyber attack or some other type of event, essential services, especially those that are publicly owned, need to stay on. They need to stay accessible. So whether it be hospitals, nursing homes, communication, 911 centers, schools, financial system, wastewater treatment facilities and the like. These are all vital services that when there is an event or even when there's not an event, you don't know how much you need it until they're gone, just like we don't have AC today. And that would be really nice if we had that. And so these are important facilities that have day to day roles, but they also have especially more important roles when there are events, especially national disasters. And so we need to make sure that communities and states and the federal government and policy makers provide leadership and provide information to make sure that those facilities are some of the most protected, most resilient, if you will, during events. So as we saw last fall, we're getting more and more storms. We're getting more and more impact of storms, not just your traditional coastal states, but even I think the storms in Texas were a little bit more more damaging and more powerful than they had been accustomed to in the past. But the nice thing that's happening is that we're learning from each storm. When you go back and look at Katrina, where unfortunately 1,200 people lost their lives at the time, it was the costiless, the store in the cost the most, sorry, at $108 billion worth of property damage. And you had 80% of the entire city under water. That doesn't, we have a whole island that's been damaged, an island that have been damaged over this past fall. But then we had Superstorm Sandy that thankfully fewer people died, but we still had, we had more states impacted and states that did not think that they would need to deal with a Superstorm like Superstorm Sandy. So while you had a major city like New York losing power for a few thousands of people, their biggest problem was the fact that they had a lot of their equipment under water. And so you had raw sewage flowing into the streets, you had their mass transit system that was out of, in most cases, in most areas, weren't able to run. And that was because of poor design or design of thinking, hey, we don't ever have to think about flooding. Let's put everything in tunnels or underground. That makes sense, because it's just easier to do at the time. So the nice thing about having those events in the past is that we've learned. So one of the things as a soft laid out in Texas, they learned from past storms. In New York, they've learned from past storms. Even in Florida, you could see, I think, in a couple of the hearings, and even some of the reports out of the storms this past fall. You could actually see neighborhoods and areas and cities that adopted the latest building codes. They, and also, Virginia Light, Virginia, Florida Light and Power and other utilities in Florida, they adopted a smart grid policy and invested a lot in smart meters and smart grids. So they were able to find a lot of the same savings and capabilities in responding to their power outages as well. But we also saw the stark, extreme example of a place like Puerto Rico, which doesn't have a lot of these systems and haven't had that type of investment. So there's obviously still a lot more that the government can do and leadership the federal government and local government and can provide. So I wanna hit, I don't wanna hit, we're very much involved and interested in energy storage and micro grids and things and smart grid that have already been mentioned. But I wanna mention a few areas that haven't been mentioned yet. So sorry, I hope I don't steal the thunder from the last speaker. But I'll hit on some things that I don't think that maybe are a little bit unique to NEMA membership. So one, we did talk a little bit about backup generation. Why that's important, especially for hospitals and critical infrastructures we saw, that it's not just having those systems about how they're designed in the buildings. Unfortunately, during the last storm, there's a nursing home in Florida where I think it was 14 or 15 residents of that nursing home or assisted living facility passed away because they had a backup generator. But that generator got shorted out because it wasn't installed correctly. And so then their critical systems failed and they weren't able to get people out in time or to find another facility to go. So people, unfortunately, passed away due to that. So we do think backup power is a good resource, but we also wanna stress the importance of that it's designed right. It's in its proper place, if you will. So if you're in a flood zone, you don't again put it in the basement. We actually, not a natural disaster, but the same thing happened in the Atlanta Airport. They had a poorly designed backup system when we saw a lot of, hopefully, none of you were traveling during that time where Atlanta's airport basically shut down for a day and a half, I think it was. And it's because their backup generator, it clicked on like it was supposed to. But then it shorted out because they didn't have the right surge protection and protection devices on it. So again, it's not just having the equipment that's designed and making sure it's installed properly and it's maintained properly. Another area we wanna talk about is water resistant wiring and components. That is sadly one of the lessons that our friends in New Jersey learned the hard way. And our friends in Texas, thankfully caught before it was too late. So different states have different requirements about when you do have a flooding situation, what's your replacement policy? New Jersey decided that they didn't need to replace some wiring in their historical boardwalk, and so they let it dry out. And then within a year, it eroded and caused a fire that burned down the boardwalk. So they survived the flood and the storm, but then they didn't survive the fire. And that was because they didn't have the right cable and wiring that they should have had. But there are solutions for that. And so that's again, about rebuilding and learning lessons and doing so. And that's where Texas learned. We were able to take that New Jersey example because they had a state policy. Just let everything dry out in Houston, you'll be okay. And we said, no, look, these are the lessons that you can learn. And so they quickly changed their policy position about replacing wiring and electrical components. And then the last thing that I just want, I mentioned the relocating equipment, the last thing I wanna talk about is, which is related to some things that are happening here in Congress, is disaster recovery planning. NEMA's very supportive of states doing mitigation planning. We've been supportive of the past efforts here in the House and that now are taking some, the discussion that's taking place in the Senate around the Disaster Recovery Reform Act. So this is a bill that would help states fund mitigation planning that some states are doing better than others. But this is an opportunity that the federal government can provide some leadership and some funding and some guidance for that. And the other big thing associated with that that NEMA's really interested in, which plays into this whole wiring piece that I just mentioned, is that when there is a disaster that people need to replace the latest and greatest technologies, depending on FEMA and their guidance in the past. People who had damaged equipment would just replace what they had in the past. So if you had a 40 year old transformer, if you still had one on the shelf, you could just replace it. We believe the proper guidance is, okay, if you have old equipment and it's damaged, don't let it dry out. You should replace it, but you should replace it and get help in replacing it with the latest and greatest so you can get to the smart grid situation that was mentioned and also some of the other stuff that was mentioned earlier. So that's something we're watching. We're hopeful that others in the room are supportive of and we're hopeful that Congress can finalize that bill before the end of this session. So I will stop there and take any questions at the end. Thanks. Thank you, Joseph. All right, our final presenter on the panel this afternoon is Kevin Heiler, who is the Director of Federal Regulatory Affairs with National Grid, Utility in New York and New England. He's here representing Wires, which is an international non-profit trade association comprised of investor, publicly, and cooperatively owned electric transmission providers, transmission customers, including renewable energy developers, service and technology companies, construction firms, and regional grid organizations. So you've got a big, a lot to say, I'm sure. So we'll turn the time to you. Well, we certainly have a lot of people represented in Wires. I don't know how much I personally will have to say. Certainly, and thanks to the earlier presenters because I think a lot of what I was planning to cover and will cover pivots off nicely with some of the things that have been mentioned already. So as noted, I'm here in town representing National Grid. Well, I work for National Grid here in town. We are an electric and gas delivery utility that's located in New York or that serves customers in New York, Rhode Island and Massachusetts. Today, I'm representing Wires, which is a larger group of companies and organizations and associations that are interested in promoting electric transmission and making people aware of the benefits that the electric transmission system delivers to customers on a daily, hourly, and minute-by-minute basis. So obviously, resilience and grid infrastructure is a very popular topic. These days, it's being discussed in the halls here. It's being discussed at DOE. It's being discussed at the White House. One of the other places it's being discussed is the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission. So like I mentioned that she worked there and that they've been doing work on storage, but they're also doing work on resilience. They have an open and ongoing proceeding looking at electric system resilience that followed from a proceeding that began when Secretary Perry from the Department of Energy asked the Commission to look at the contributions that a specific set of electric generation resources make or the contributions that that set of generation makes to system resilience. The Commission, for a variety of reasons, ultimately rejected the proposal that DOE put forth, and they initiated a new proceeding that is much broader. It is not limited to electric generation. It looks at transmission, transmission planning, system operations. It looks at the rules that govern the electricity markets, particularly the organized electricity markets that we find in the Northeast primarily, also in the Midwest. So it's a much broader examination of grid resilience and wires as an association filed comments in that proceeding that sort of spelled out what we think the benefits of transmission, or the contribution that, contributions that transmission makes to electric system resilience and some of the actions that the Commission can take with respect to transmission if the interest, if the idea is to support resilience ultimately. Broadly speaking, the wires, this is no surprise I'm sure to anyone in the room felt that sort of a singular focus on electric generation really diverted attention away from very critical roles that a variety of technologies and segments of the industry and system play in promoting resilience. So with that in mind, the wires laid out the benefits of electric transmission in promoting resilience. We've heard some of that, I think, already from earlier speakers, particularly Asaf, but I'll sort of run through what we put on paper. The first is with respect to avoiding and absorbing the effects of severe weather, of possible cyber or physical attacks, of other sort of high impact, low frequency events. Certainly expanding networks and expanding interconnections between regions promotes resilience and allows system operators to access a diverse set of supply resources. They are not limited to a sort of one set or one geographic area when serving customers. It also enables them to access different sources of supply if there are disruptions within a specific area. There's also investments to expressly harden the system, whether the intent is to protect against storms, severe weather, whether it's moving critical infrastructure from flood plains to other parts of a region, or whether it is to protect against cyber or physical attack. I think you mentioned bullet proofing substations and other infrastructure, right? That's the kind of thing that can be done. There's a whole other set of investments that can be made on the transmission system to help manage a response in real time, as well as to accelerate the recovery period. So in this way, there's a significant role for new technologies to play. They can often be deployed much easier, much more quickly. They provide a much more granular and detailed view of system operations. They allow the operators to diagnose the challenges and problems on the system in a much quicker way. They also accelerate response and recovery times. I think if anything else, I would just duplicate what other folks have said. So in closing, I'll talk a little bit about what wires is asked the commission, or FERC, to do with respect to promoting resilience and the role that transmission can play in supporting resilience. So number one, wires believes that the commission can clarify that its existing transmission planning procedures can accommodate resilience planning. Right now, planning is focused primarily on reliability. Resilience is different from reliability. Certainly, investments that are made to support system reliability support resilience. But it's not the exact, excellent, I lost my place. Anyway, the point being is that there are explicit standards for reliability. They're not explicit standards and criteria for planning for resilience. The second is that the commission can examine the existing planning processes to make sure that resilience is actually accommodated within the planning processes. And then it can also, finally, it can direct each transmission organization, in this case, the regional transmission organizations in New York, in New England, and sort of the mid-Atlantic and mid-west. It can direct those organizations to look at their system to assess the vulnerabilities that they see on the system. Now, this vulnerabilities may be different in different parts of the country, and that's perfectly appropriate. But we believe that those vulnerabilities should be assessed, that the transmission organizations should actually create responses to those vulnerabilities mitigation strategies. And then the commission can ensure that those mitigation strategies are actually incorporated into the transmission plans that the organizations and companies like ourselves execute going forward. So with that, I think I'll take questions. Thank you, Kevin. We have probably just a few minutes for questions. If there are any, is there any questions in the audience? OK, if there are not, I'm going to get us started, because I actually had quite a few, as everyone was speaking. I think resilience is something that I personally think about a lot. I've lived through a few storm events myself, and I know what it's like to have to respond and to deal with them. So I do think a lot about this topic. And one of the things that I heard that a number of our presenters touched on was this issue of education. The importance of education, and as Joseph was saying in his remarks that we're learning as we go along with each storm event, things are a little bit different. We're learning a little bit more and learning how to respond. So I just wanted to ask our presenters, if you could, anyone have any thoughts about the tools that we have for educating the public and policymakers and others who need to know how to better prepare for these inevitable situations and how we can better respond so that the public, which also has a role in being prepared, is safe and has reliable power? So are there any thoughts from any of you? I know Zuleika, you mentioned this issue of education. There, I'm not going to, these folks that are on the panel with me are very invested in really ensuring the safety of the customers out there and their companies and utilities, whatnot, are at the forefront of all of it. But from a perspective of education, I think that what's really important is understanding, like you said, Ruth, the tools that you have and the tools that the utilities provide, I think that the utilities through their own efforts as well as working with the various trade organizations like Wires and EEI and some of the other folks and NEMA have been able to get out in front of what they, as much as they can before the storms. I think that Joe touched upon the fact that they were able to information share and prevent what happened in New Jersey and Houston. And so I think that if you're able to really kind of go across the lines, work together collaboratively among the various invested groups and industries like ours as well, you know, we're looking at it. We don't want that wire, that start of the fire to be copper, you know, so we want it. It's okay if it's aluminum. Don't quote me on that. I'm just kidding. But it's, I think that information sharing, I think that working with the utilities and I think that working with the other associations and invested industry groups is really important because the everyday consumer does not think about this as much as we do. And I think when you are able to work with a lot of these different groups, you get that message out with the other folks that are experts on it. I think it's a great question. I think we face this education question in a lot of different realms within energy policy. I think, you know, from my perspective speaking now for National Grid, we do a wonderful job with storm preparation. We do a wonderful job communicating people with people during storms. We do a wonderful job of communicating restoration periods and that kind of thing. It's a lot more difficult to explain to people why transmission investment is particularly necessary, particularly if they see their bills going up on a regular basis. Now, it's not always because of transmission investment. There are a lot of different reasons for bills going up. But nevertheless, education is a little bit more difficult when it gets less and less concrete. Okay, anybody on this side of the table? No, I think that there's a role for government here and the Department of Energy's Office of Electricity does a lot of good work with technical assistance, which I think is important. And I think that there's more opportunity to do more as the challenges evolve and as new technologies come to the fore. There are a lot of large utilities out there, but there are also a significant number of smaller regional cooperatives to municipal utilities that do not have the same resources that large utilities have in order to do proper grid planning. They don't have large engineering staffs and very significant budgets where they can spend on outside consultants and so forth to help plan the grid. I mean, I think there's more the US government can do to provide technical assistance to those smaller municipal and rural cooperatives to help them build a more resilient grid. Okay, thank you. And Joseph, I know we need to wrap up, but if you have one last thought. Yeah, just add, I think our challenge, and I think especially for utilities, the challenge is getting people to understand and care and pay attention when there's not an event, right? So no one thinks about this as Kevin alluded to, unless there's something going on or until they see their bill. So I think it's on us, it's on when there is an event and remind people like, hey, this is why we plan. I mean, even in the state of Florida, like I mentioned earlier, they were able to now see coded buildings for updated buildings versus non-updated buildings. And so it was very stark. And so every day that people drive by that, they're gonna be reminded like, okay, this is something that's really important and we need to do. So I think that's the biggest challenge. And I think the other thing I would just add is, it's no longer a technical problem, right? I mean, besides the fact that Asaf just mentioned, there are some resources issues with utilities across, especially the smaller utilities, but there's technical solutions. It's now more of a policy problem and an education problem that we have to overcome some states, some utilities are doing really well. And then other states, I don't think Idaho is thinking about hurricanes, right? But obviously the coastal states are. So it's about making sure everyone's kind of learning from each other and has that access to that information. Great, thank you. Well, I appreciate all of that great information. Please join me in giving a round of applause to our panelists. Thank you.