 Good, so this is the generative commons fall for Wednesday, June 16th, 2021 Let's just dive in ourselves and Take it wherever it goes and whoever shows up shows up and then I will do a better job of recruiting people to the call next week And the week after But I'm happy to see you here. Yep And I was just trying to refresh my brain with what we went through last Two weeks ago when we had the first generative commons call Because it was long enough to go that it's fading from memory. I took some notes and at the end of Uncopied things from the from the chat and at the very end of my notes We seem to have Come up with the following so I put it in matter most that would be great, please. Thank you Yeah, I'm in the generative commons channel on matter most myself right now. Yeah, right. That's where I also found So we were sort of talking around a lot of different subjects and at the towards the end we were talking about how should we give this some form and The point that my notes ended on and if I'm looking back over them my memory enzyme is That in future conversations, we should look at these type of questions What do we want to explore what do we want to answer what kind of output do we want is this a time-bounded project And then there was the suggestion to set up a challenge for artists cartoonist songwriters, etc Who can make something out of what comes out of our our Conversations, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Did you paste that into the matter most chat? Yeah, I just in which channel because I I'm in the general channel OGM generally generative commons channel. Oh, did I already post it? Now now I see it perfect. Okay. Oh, so Yeah, you had pasted but you hadn't hit enter yet. That's yeah. Yeah Sounds great. And I think also I think one of the things we ended on two weeks ago was Inviting a broader range of interested parties to this conversation because yes, there are other people who give a big damn about this This you know this question and yeah, and he's done some work on it. Yeah. Yeah, I'm looking in the notes You mentioned that you know Lawrence Lessig you asked the question does that anyone know David Bulgay or Bolier? Bolier. Yeah. Yeah, I know his work, but I've never met him. Same here. Let's see that I get any other Names here necessarily No, those those are the two names that that I'd made notes of yeah, but that's also an excellent thing to do I think get get people who have knowledge of generative commons and perhaps even vested interests in the generative commons Exactly, and who've already invested in big bodies of work like the creative commons Yeah, so silk a whole freak might be really interested And I think I think writing David Bolier and asking him. Oh good, you just stepped in exactly this. Oh, yeah, that's good And I think for example asking Asking David Bolier who he thinks would be interested in this that probably is a generative question. Yeah, yeah, and then I know that Mark Has been working a lot with the indigenous tribes and Yeah, he might be really interested in In finding who from those communities would be interested in coming here because there's a there's a piece about generative commons That should be absorbing wisdom from indigenous communities about managing managing commons on the whole Yeah, yeah, absolutely and Going to some of the questions we posed at the end last time We can explore all kinds of generative experiences and The best work although I have a feeling it's it's it's a little difficult to Distinguish at the moment the best work of Otto Sharma certainly at the beginning before he became a An extremely well-known person when he was doing these interviews before publishing the book and I take it some of some of the work that he's able to do Either online or in person is definitely generative Colleagues or former colleagues of his like Adam Cahane Cahane. Yeah, we're working in that field Bill Isaacs Working in that field Not so certain that They are Want to do it now, but it depends. I guess what type about what we want to want to get out of it Yeah and there's so and David Bollier's Overall theme or umbrella topic. I think it's common in living in the commons Yeah, and I think and I think a piece of what we're talking about is the recorded part the Memorized that the shared part of the information part of living in the commons. I think I think commenting is a very nice Frame for this Although when you start to talk commenting you very quickly go to the opposite side of the field and this is only in my head From intellectual property laws and overprotection and all of that And I think I think a really important part of understanding the generative commons is understanding the effect of current commons regulations on On creating and nurturing generative commons Yeah And then There's an entire thread of ownership versus membership versus stewardship yeah eco feminism and Other alternative Ownership regimes and other kinds of things and how how might those coexist with current laws or or You know sprout from within current regimes. There's something really interesting there And And what I like is that Wikipedia and open-source software and a few other very very large projects that everybody seems to touch are Really nice examples or proof points that there's something nice and different and fruitful about digital commons Yeah, about the new commons. Yeah, we should also invite Doc Searles in here and people from the Oster workshop So so I didn't realize it but Doc Searles has a long history with the Oster workshop in Indiana In Bloomington at the University. Yeah, and I have a friend Charlotte Hess who's kind of just retired out and Charlotte did a bunch of work She Charlotte co-authored some papers with Lynn and things like that, but I'm thinking we could find a You know some participants from that workshop and figure out what's up there. So, yeah Yeah, that's an excellent idea so I I co-wrote an article Town flies ago about Digital commons and things like that. Did I ever send that to you? What's its title? Co-creating by in no co-creating futures in a virtual bar. I do not think so Okay, I would love to see it. Let's see if I can yeah get a copy in here I did it with a friend of mine and it was actually a Forest bringer book which will be published shortly about hybrid learning spaces, but we more or less ignored hybrid and learning Lots about the What you can or should be able to do in the digital commons and Let's see can I get that easily here and it does ask a lot of questions We have as both of us being at that time certainly rather digital literates Maybe simple questions that the people in open global minds could trash But still it does deal with some of our thoughts about digital comments Yeah, yeah Do you have it posted online any place is there? No, because it's it's it was the version we sent was for publication at Springer, so I in the future Okay, okay, so it's not online. Yeah, but I do what I do have a version if I Get the right place for it And in addition I'm writing at the moment another article with two French three French colleagues about Leveraging distributed collective intelligence in a digital commons Two of them are very much more professor like an intellectual but there's Interesting stuff in that as well, and I'm giving a workshop on that theme at a urban lab summit Next week online That's very cool And you're making me realize that and any Peterson, what's her name? Why am I forgetting her name? No, not any on Peterson different person. Oh Heck also three names starts with an Any Murphy Paul, there we go. Oh I've just made contact with any Murphy Paul like friending her on LinkedIn or something like that She's a science writer Who's written a bunch of things? Oh, I know so she just wrote This is what happened. She wrote of an article called how to think outside your brain For the New York Times Which I'll post the name of it and the link to it in our chat So she wrote this article how to think outside your brain, which is a lot about collective intelligence And I really like the article So I posted about it on Twitter connected to her and said, you know, thank you And then I brained it and sent her a link to the to the brain Braining of it because it's it talks about the extended mind pieces and a bunch of other stuff. Oh nice And I think that she would be a really she would might might be interested in this in this conversation excellent excellent and She might have ideas about who else? Okay, so so I think one thing we could do productively is Generate a short, you know three paragraph invite to this conversation Yeah, and we are already turning a lot on who else to invite into the conversation But I think if we came up with a couple paragraphs for for a letter that would be really useful Yeah, I agree definitely Cool, should I just start a Google Doc and share it with you? Yeah, perfect. Let me do let me do that That's the simplest path to a collaborative document document right this second I would go to OGM with you and start a doc started filing all that but I'm I'm unclear where to put it and all that's and I know I can move it later But I'm just gonna start a new Google Doc for grins because that's really easy to co-edit with you Um So you you probably followed that thread started by Gil friend Yeah about Painful conversations. Yes, and Well, I didn't reply to that. I was really glad that Ken and some other people jumped right on it but I mean You can have painful conversations At a superficial level and can painful conversations at a deep level and you can have Really deep going conversations online and there's all kinds of things like that But what what do you want in the generative comments? Do you want to be? Proven right or do you want to be shown other new ways of thinking or do you want the chance to develop with other people new ideas that you could never get yourself or you want to take some of ideas and speculate on Practical or in practical ways to put them into practice. So I think that's that's a really interesting question also also for our Google Docs If we carry out the conversation Is it a conversation for conversations? A sake which is also fine with me because I'm very interested in Sharing ideas about it or do we actually want to take it someplace or inspire other people to take it someplace? And I feel would be yes and yes And I agree and I just put a link to a Google doc I just opened in the matter most chat Just so that anybody anybody in our conversation can go to it and add to it. So let's let's just start a letter there I think I think there's a couple things here one is At least in the early going we want to flesh this idea out as broadly as we can and be very very inclusive Of what generative commons means means what commons are who minds commons? The bigger questions that this opens up like we were saying a moment ago about you know membership versus ownership versus stewardship You know, I think I think like upfront Let's let's let's open up those conversations and make make room for all that and then thinking slightly longer term We need to figure out who feels strongly enough about this or already has a venture going near like this that they could own this Longer term because I think that one of the questions you put up right at the start of this call Was does this have a deadline? What is our what are we aiming for? Yeah, and and for me I don't know who an ogm wants to be long term, you know leader of this project I know I have too many things going on. Yeah, and this is not my sweet spot. I just know that it's urgent Yeah, so we need to find one or more people who would like to you know, just do this because they care a lot about How this works? Yeah, so I think we have a twin project of Rich conversation to get a good first cut a good first draft Build up the website, you know, we own the domain. Let's build something on it and then recruit A more permanent group that really wants to carry this forward. Yeah, so And are you putting those in the chat? Yeah, thank you. Perfect Perfect And I think that's that's, you know, a reasonable set of things to to groft right now. Yeah, so So in the in the in the email and I'm envisioning this conversation You may want to join just as it's a simple email personal invites in from us Who are in it? Um, and I'll just start any place And uh Oh, sorry, all right No, I wanted to Put something there while you're still working So I need to get down below. Yeah, just just go just go below me. Yeah Yeah, cool Cool, and we also own the domain generative commons.org Oh good Yeah, so this got me into a little trouble on the first call because p was insistent right away that this be put Into shared ownership because I bought it as me as my own account Yeah And so we spent a bunch of time at the end of the call where p was like, this must be in shared and shared hands and I'm like I don't know whose hands are going to sign up for owning it together Why don't we you know, why don't we move this conversation forward a little bit to get there? So I think that's where we end up. It's like, okay. Okay. Let's let's let's back off on that And I'm I'm I'm extremely interested in finding people who want to sort of carry these projects forward and then like Then we put the title to these things in some form of commons, right? We sort of we put them into open global mind as a whole etc And I'm just getting to the point where open global mind is a thing That can actually hold assets and and you know represent things so Cool, yeah, so let's see what Sounds good, and I'd like to remix what we've got and then have a couple other people Cover a couple other people come in You'll notice that I in writing normal text. I often put commons in with a capital letter Yeah, and I do that. I do that on purpose to call it out I'm one of those people that still writes internet with a capital i All right. Yeah, exactly because some people were like, oh, it's just internet Let's like let's do lowercase and for me like the internet deserves a capital i because it is a set of agreements and a set of protocols and And all of that so so for me and this is just my work, but I like it Um, I'd like to capitalize commons as often as I can So I I also just wrote common goods where I didn't capitalize it because I didn't mean the commons there Right. Yeah. No, I I agree with you. I'm very uh found of calling things out either with a capital letter or an italics or or uh Single quote marks around it so people know that either somebody else has called it that or I We are calling it that. Yeah, I don't totally like that. Yeah, perfect So I think this is a reasonable start for For an invitation letter me too and and I think if we um, uh, Publicize next week's call on this list and a couple other places Uh, ask people to come look at this and make it better Yeah, uh, I think we'll we'll have a nice email we can send out Excellent. Yeah, I I've got at least two more weeks before I go on vacation if Vacation we want to go to Germany if that's actually possible Uh, so I've got at least two more calls I can be at and while on vacation probably I try I I mean I I call myself semi-retired. My wife is now retired about a month and I sort of promised her that we'd spent sometime together during the normal weeks like lunch together and Dinner together and the trip together, but when we go on a vacation that I Tried to do as little uh, internet it was possible So I may not be able to join any calls on uh internet But if things are or continue to get posted on the dock Like this or I'm not just I could always refer to them because she tends to go to sleep an hour and a half I stand later than my wife as well and I actually get up a little earlier than she does usually Yeah Yeah, I've I've got a rhythm. I'm originally was really a nice person And I've pushed my rhythm back from Being at my best from four in the afternoon To ten in the evening and then carrying on until two and two in the morning So I mean I learned to wake up early and also Be Do intelligent things like especially writing and proofreading But I do tend to after I'm finished for the day at the computer Like to go down and I just put on television sometimes mindless sometimes documentaries I've got a real paper book and a real set of pens with different colored inks and I listen and I hear things and I Brainstorm with the television on them So and I can carry that out till well after midnight That's funny I would think the person who has the most inconvenience from 7 a.m. Pacific time would be you I couldn't think of holding intelligent conversation that early as I had to And and I'm like most like Monday through Thursday every week. I normally now have 7 a.m. Call It's pretty interesting. So so I get up at 6 and I'm I'm alerted by this time So it seems to work. Okay. I don't know so far so far so good And I like I like it being 9 a.m. And me having like done something so that that makes me happy Yeah Yeah, I can say that about myself, but then I like To get up at 8 and read in bed When I my mind is fresh fully fill it through a work Full of words and have accomplished some interesting stuff before 9 30 Exactly the thing so so the trade-off the trade-off for me is that What I probably should be doing instead is Eating the frog first thing in the day. Have you heard the have you heard the phrase eat the frog. No So imagine what it means Eat the frog means pick the largest most important thing you need to work on and do that first. Yeah and so And so I need to I need to flip some things around so I can eat the frog early. So yeah Good. So I so In the letter. So in the letter, I wanted to put a link to what we've got so far. Yeah, great Yeah good And we I would like to stand something up on generative comments.org pretty soon There's two ways to go about that one is To go on massive wiki and do what we did for open global mind. I don't know if you've noticed but open global mind.com We switched it over Originally, I built it on google sites, which I love I've become a big big big fan of google sites because it's free It's powerful. It makes simple elegant websites. I can do it. It does collaborative editing other I can I invite other people to edit. So it's it's really pretty transparent But what we did was we moved it over to massive wiki's website builder Yeah, and so there's a directory on massive wiki that has all the pages and they're right now It doesn't have many pages For the new website so we could we could pretty easily stand one of those up for the generative commons But what that does is it restricts participation to people who understand how to post, you know pages on to the massive wiki And pete and pete is in the middle of trying to figure out What would it take to make that really easy? Yeah, uh, you know because right now you have to understand github and Yeah, you know a bunch of other stuff. Um, and that's a barrier. It's a barrier to entry Um Yeah, I I understand that completely I did a couple of tutorials with the word cunning ham about Half a year three quarters of a year ago and I learned the basis of doing it But it was such a Exclusive process That I sort of dropped it not that I didn't like it because I found lots of interesting things on it But it does exclude a lot of people So he was teaching how to use github specifically or something else? No, here's uh, what did he call the fed wiki? Yeah federated wiki. Yeah. Yeah, and I like fed wiki and then I don't know how to use it like I look and I look at people showing me stuff in fed wiki And the opening up of one vertical window after another doesn't really it doesn't make some it doesn't compel me It doesn't make sense to me So and then the little the little thumbnail icons at the bottom Referred versions of the document and and so forth and I don't really understand how to use them And then and then anytime you touch a document you basically fork it into your fed wiki And it becomes a different version of the same and I'm like wait. I don't understand that either Yeah, but I but it's highly decentralized in a way. That's really good. It's yes, exactly exactly Yeah, so I haven't figured out how to use fed wiki and you know, david ballville is a big fan There are many several ogm members who've done a who've built a lot of things on fed wiki um, so if this remains Mostly with ogm people we could certainly use The system Describing once it gets open to other people we might want to consider Using a more accessible But I would imagine in the beginning it'll be mostly ogm people I think so and then even even with an ogm you have to be pretty geeky to to sort of work the You know to install obsidian and link it to github and no be smart enough to be smart enough to push changes, you know Correctly and and to be sure that you've done the right thing that takes a little learning and coordination Um, and that's kind of well, you can also edit directly on github So you could just get a github account and you could use the github editor. That's doable It's doable, but kind of really ugly Uh, because the github editor is kind of a line a very simple line editor and it's like But that's doable Okay, so so we have to kind of pose Yeah, we should leave that to when we get a few more people in the group what they think Yeah, uh what I didn't really emphasize in the last conversation When it Caught up in uh in sexism and And and such Was that Aside from it having been a conversation of all the white males without Black people uh orientals or women Uh, there were no teenagers in it and I do think that Whatever a generative confidence is now it's likely to be A lot different in the next 10 years. So there was Different age groups should be involved in it as well Exactly, exactly um Which makes me think of what young people care about commons and the rules of commons and things like that That's a great question as well. Yeah, I have no idea. Let me put that in I'm typing it in. Oh, okay. Good. Yeah Cool. Um, I'm older than I look So I'm I'm one year younger than lay fedwinson Who is about the age that he looks Uh, but I mean when I talk to people now I tend to be uh Much more thinking much more in terms of yeah, if I do work now I want to get some kind of legacy That other people can pick up after I'm no longer able or or or so to do it And in order to have it as a nice legacy you need a nice spread of different generations Not only 60 and 70 but 50 40 30 and as far as I'm concerned or even down to to pre teens Totally agree. Totally agree. Um Sometime ago gosh Or maybe almost a year ago. Was it before lockdown? um, we had an inside jerry's brain call I had a whole series of calls Called inside jerry's brain Before I invented, um, ogm And on one of the calls that the the the topic of the call was jerry's brain after jerry And it was like and it was inspired partly because april and I were we're updating our wills and things like that And we don't own any we don't own any picassos and we don't have like uh, we don't have a complicated legacy, right? Um, the one asset I have that I actually need to think about from our will is what happens to my brain and the brain data And it would it's easy enough to just Make it available, you know openly, but it's but it's a proprietary format file in a tool that might go away So but but as a as a snapshot of the day that I died, that's pretty easy to do Um, the question then is how might my brain be a seed for something else be like a sourdough starter for something broader And pete Kaminsky made the really astute comment of the only way that's going to happen Is if at the time of your death, there is a community of people who know and are already doing that Right, that's the only way that works is if there's more than one human many humans Who understand what that means and are building it out? And so it's not a huge motivator for ogm, but it's definitely in the picture of ogm as a community that could do exactly that And so one of the things I need to create right now is a challenge Uh that comes out of the free jerry's brain conversation And the challenge is hey, we've exported my data from the brain into a simple database Here's six different levels of challenge for what one might do with this data Right and one level of challenge is what would machine learning like to do with this data? Like how many different uses for machine learning are there with something like this another challenge is What does the conversation look like between two people? Who curate data like this? Yeah, and and you know user experience Designers go crazy like like figure out. What does it look like when you know? What if I run into a Q and on person who is also obsessive about externalizing their belief systems? Right. Yeah, I would like to have that conversation Yeah, I would really like to have the conversation and I'm like to figure out what that looks like Right the way that minority report had, you know, tom cruise wearing gloves and goggles and doing The the thing that everybody saw on was like, oh, that's really cool. Yeah, right? So what does that and and and That movie had a bunch of advisors that are in the communities of people we know like I think kevin kelly Was an advisor to minority report And several other geeks that we know and so and so that little simulation was informed by some pretty legit geeks Yeah, um, so trying to figure out how how to do that Are there other aspects of generative commons that light up for you that we haven't talked about here I'd love to just since it's us. I'd like to just hear what else that what else this means to you Well, since I'm I'm much more practitioner. I mean, I love abstract thinking but I especially Like then to test it if it really works What really interests me in the generative commons concept Is how it can be put into practice in such a way that it Doesn't immediately get commercialized that it can Discount ownership and intellectual property when being used to address Major societal challenges like the the un's sdg goals Uh So what I would like to work towards in a process Like we've been talking about Is a type of prototyping Get get after the rich conversations Get a couple of best guesses and then see how this can be taken into practice in a way that Um Helps the world get a new way of looking at Engaging lots of people's minds without having to worry about This is my idea and I want money for it. So it It can be addressed against climate change poverty Salute to genesis Whatever any area and also so it's usable In in multiple contexts that multiple age groups, etc, etc I mean the idea is to create generative Commons so that kids in school are building it as well And and and people in businesses are building it as well and scientists are building it as well And and you know, there's some idea of provenance of the information So, you know that this came from a seven-year-old and this came from a phd or whatever that's that's interesting and important But the idea of sort of collaboratively building out this common matter matters a lot to me. Yeah, cool And to do that you do need a set of orchestrators or curators and it could be done in a in a very citizen-centric way and Like like jury duty or any other kind of of way to get a random but in this case probably interested people Involved in curating or orchestrating it But the idea that interests me at the moment is Who owns it? Well, you could say in a sort of idealistic Fashion, well, it's a societal challenge and the united nations owns it But wouldn't it be better if you could say that The people of Well, what can I say the people of the southern hemisphere own it or the people who drink River fresh water from rivers own it or whatever it is some something relevant to the issue you're dealing with Yeah, and in that sense you would need a kind of Democratic principle for shared responsibility No Individualistic ownership, but someone's got to take charge Because shared ownership is often no ownership Yeah, but you it has to be crafted in such a way And I'm just asking questions out loud because I'm dealing with them in in in that article I've with the french people I've been writing You you want to get as much response shared responsibility as possible, but everyone knows You can't have six million people voting On what goes forward. So somehow It has to have a very sharp Edge of the of the You call the edge of the wedge tip of the spear Sharp boundaries. There's another expression. I can't come up with because I'm thinking in Dutch so long But yeah, the thin end edge of the wedge wasn't yeah, but I mean somehow It has to be and that was my basic idea for the global lab for scientific innovation Where this other concept I'm trying to co-develop the distributed living lab It has to work on local level Dealing with specific local challenges while at the same time there's people Looking over each other's shoulders to see what works in 10 different local situations Ah, is that generic is it generic to 50 year olds wearing glasses? Is that generic to knowledge societies? Is that generic to whatever right? And that's that's sort of the vision I have of a generative comments that somehow Things can be found that work on local level regional level planetary level Whatever But Can say that so somehow there needs to be governance built into it exactly and and one of my fears Is that this gets watered down the way natural and organic have been watered down because Because when terms create strict adherence principles and those run counter to the large industry, you know industrial groups Uh, the large industrial groups proceed to you know try to try to get in there and mess them up So that so that you know if you weaken the standard then this your substandard produce still fits the category Yeah, exactly. And so how do how do we define generative and commons in ways that Protect the those commons over the long over the long term I also wrote in the chat like the world and electoral property organization and the wto are part of our problem Here and and I'm wondering and you know the world's social forum was an attempt To protest the world economic forum and to say hey, there's an alternative arrangement for doing things here But I don't know how many things have spilled out of the world social forums efforts that we have adopted that we take for granted um And I think that the conversation we're having would be appealing to the world social forum perspective on things but but how might you know, is is there a way to Over the over the very long term is there a way to influence wipo and how How global treaties treat Commons and information that's much more humane and much more collaborative And that would be a big for me. That would be a huge win. Like like it's a negative It's like getting rid of crappy crappy rules is a negative. It's not a positive thing But if the crappy rules are busy destroying things Okay, good. You've you've you've like gotten rid of a big barrier for collaboration and growth Yeah, exactly. Yeah So, yeah, so what is the what is the poison pill? What is the formula? You know puffer fish are are very slow-moving fish, but when they're eaten by another fish, they inflate themselves Uh, you know and suddenly like you've got a mouthful of spiky stuff So you spit them back up or you know, most toads have poisonous like Worts on their surface and they're not very fun to eat So other animals learn not to eat toads too much It's good. Like like how do you create a how do you create a an agreement for the commons? That is that is resistant to being eaten Yeah, cool Absolutely, um, so let's so um I need to do a better job of Telling people that these calls are back on and that we're going to do them on, you know At this time every week for a while until we until we until we achieve sort of the short-term goal the short-term aim um And stand it up as a what we formerly would have called a quest In ogm I don't have I got convinced That guilds and quests are not great terms And maybe a name for a quest is a project I don't know project project or initiatives would probably be more neutral. Oh good. Hey, judy. Hi Hey, sorry to be so late getting here. That's all right. I thought I'd get here sooner and then there were intrusions intruders Um, great to see you. Thanks for joining. Uh, we were we were maybe just going to wrap up pretty soon, but uh happy to happy to have you here and Do you want us to catch you up? Yeah, if you've got a couple minutes summary of what you talked about you bet. So we started so One thing that came out of the last Call, which was two weeks ago the first the first call on this thread was We need to invite other people who really care about this topic into this conversation into the into the you know This series and so we brainstormed for a while Who does that mean and if you scroll up the matter most chat the channel call generative commons That's where we've been chatting the whole call If you scroll up that you'll see a bunch of names that the start of this, you know, this this conversation So we did that then we were like, okay How do we invite those people? So we I created a google doc and shared that out You'll find that link also in the chat and the google doc is the beginnings of an email invitation that some of us Whoever's inspired to Will send out personally to some of these people some of these potential participants that says here's what we're doing Here's the intention. Here's where we're chatting so you can go look at what we've got so far Would you like to join us and also? We need more people who are more diverse than us. Would you invite other would you forward this to other people you think are? Are likely participants? And then we then we came back to the general idea and we were kind of talking about all right So what principles do we care about? How does this how does this roll out? What are the pragmatics of it so that there's an agreement that somebody cares about? How do you get more attention and more usage of it? You know, how does it exist on the ground? And things like that and then at the end we were talking about how do we protect it So that it doesn't get diluted like, you know natural You know natural foods used to mean something and then once once something is antithetical to how big pharma or big food Goes about its business then what they'll do is instead of changing the way they do business they'll change the spec So how do we how do we defend the spec against dilution so that generative commons? Is no longer that generative and one of the long long term wishlist items was Wouldn't it be cool if we could change the rules of the game at wipo and the wto? Right because because part of our problem is that large business has has managed to to write into code Into into the legal systems extreme extreme intellectual property protection and then run it across the world Including they've gotten rid of Complaint mechanisms and lawsuit mechanism like like part of what wto does that I don't like at all is that it removes Uh methods for defense from people whose whose rights and intellectual property are being abused So how to do that Sounds like a good call. Sorry. I missed it You're recording it. I trust so I can go play it and and hear the rich discussion Exactly perfect What else Hank? I guess we're back to As far as I'm concerned the questions which we posed right at the beginning Questions we want to what do we want to explore? What do we want to get answers to what kind of output do we want? Is this a time-bounded project? and who can Make something very accessible out of it artists cartoonists songwriters Yeah Video artists or whatever And I could imagine that when we're inviting people we might also look for people Who have those types of skills as well? I mean I listen to lots of music, but I've never written a song I write a lot of cartoons, but I can't draw a cartoon But I recognize how powerful those media Are in getting complicated ideas Maybe not even complex ideas into the Or let's say on the agenda of lots of lots of people who should be more aware of them. So I love that. Yeah and so you just you just made me realize like the oatmeal is a Cartoonist who's extremely smart and the oatmeal's infographic cartoon about Nikola Tesla Which I will post right now Is is brilliant like it's a really good history of what tesla invented It's very very good. It's called why nikola tesla was the greatest geek who ever lived And I will post it in our chat Actually, I think if I just post the link it'll pick up the name of the page. So Now is the cat in matter most chariot or is it with this in that is I am posting it right now in the matter most chat Perfect. Yeah, I love that. We're using matter most for the chats. It's just so superior Yeah, good and I and I love having a persistent conversation for each of our conversations that are you know I think it anchors us a good bit. I really like the way we're using matter most. Yep Cool, and then susie kegel is an acquaintance She's a really really good sort of political and other kind of cartoonist. She might be really interested There's also nikki case Maybe nikki case I support nikki on patreon and nikki does sort of simulations and other kinds of visual storytelling Oh, yeah, interesting So so nikki did a simulation that got viewed a lot about the tragedy of the commons I think something like that. Yeah. Yeah I'm not sure what's tragedy comes. I think of something else Yeah, in in my experience I talked to the ideas I'm interested in with lots of well educated people who are in different fields and I often get looked at as what kind of What kind of stuff from from beyond the solar system you're talking about So I've discovered the power of visualizing them But not necessarily my visualization but visualization In by by people who know how to do it who can take the essence or the irony or the the paradox of Some of these ideas and express it in such a way that you go away and you keep thinking about Oh the text in that song or that that A couple of frames in that comic book or Image in it in the film I saw exactly I think that's wonderful. That's I think it's so powerful It's really the picture is a thousand words, but it's more than that because the picture engages the mind in a whole different way in terms of the wholeness and the Potential vectors and all kinds of things It's just plus it reaches the audience that has a really crappy reading skill And that's a lot of a lot of people these days that are you know, sort of stuck in not even six or seventh grade But fourth or fifth grade reading levels Yeah Yeah, exactly and that's that's the challenge we should defer to another discussion But I think in terms of engagement of humanity and the generative commons It's pitched to a pretty high level of intellectualism at this point Yeah, in terms of technology capacity and literary capacity and other things and The engagement of larger numbers of people with lesser levels of education Is something that we should consciously talk about Um, I love that and I just added a paragraph to the to the email invite letter that says it isn't just policy wonks We're inviting it's also comics artists poets songwriters and others who might help communicate the ideas of the generative commons And Well, when you think about social movements If you if you don't have to go back very far even in developed countries history Where it was totally oral or pictorial Because there wasn't the literary Knowledge base and framework that is constant now And I have no idea what the literacy levels are around the world, but I know they've greatly declined in america And it's pretty appalling What the literacy levels are A couple a couple small notes like songlines in australia with their original peoples Songlines are a combination of map of the territory mythological saga Rites and privileges recitation and recording Kind of meaning and i'm totally making this up, but but from this bend to that bend Bob and jane over there have rights over whatever right and and The song the way that aborigines tweet the landscape isn't like this plot owned the longest of bob and jane. They don't do that But but the song lines are which are memorized and then sung and passed down Hold lots more information than just the mythology of how we got here And you know that rock is actually of the serpent that landed here and created whatever that's in there too But also they have several layers or versions of different songlines And they sell them want to tell the actual Aboriginal song line to anybody outside of the trial outside of the group So they'll have the performative version. It's like you want to hear a song line here We'll sing we'll sing you one It's that not actually the song line that we teach that we're teaching our you know our kids And so that's really interesting and then across the world. There are some sort of didactic songs There's one I remember called la vin chuca Which is from latin america I don't remember nicaragua somewhere in there and the vin chuca is a bug that gives you sleeping sickness So they needed to wake everybody up and say hey, we need to get rid of this bug So the song tells you that it lives in the fact where the roof meets the at the wall How to look for it how to get rid of it and it's a nice salsa kind of kind of tune like, you know It's actually a nice a nice song. So all these things are things we can sort of reach out to That would really change the dimensions of the commons too, which I think would be perfect. Yeah, absolutely So that's my bit of a person to comment today Sweet, see good start to the day Um anything else? No, I should let you guys go That's okay. I'm really happy you're doing If you've got a few minutes, uh, let let me pose a question which is uh uh Consuming my thinking and the thinking of a couple of very intelligent people I I know including leif edwardson And that's the difference between an idea with a small eye an idea with a capital i and a meme Um, and I just typed that in the chapter. So we have okay, good record. Yeah, I just did that. Um And I'm happy to just riff on that for a second and judy would love if you want to jump in as well. Um, so So for me one of the important thoughts in my brain is we're in a titanic battle over the scripts in our heads Yeah, right. And so for me the battle over ideas. I think with a capital i that Everybody agrees to and if you read yuvol harari He's saying that one of the things that distinguishes humans is our ability to create collective fictions With that guide our society and I like that a lot And to me like religions are collective fictions governance mechanisms are collective fictions and also things like, you know Trickle down economics and the laffer curve and I just I just recently watched on video There was an interview of arthur laffer and one of the really smart social critics, you know, young social critics And they were like pounding on laffer for having given us this this thing that ate our brains back in the day That said all you need to do is cut taxes for the rich and it trickles down because they save more They spend more and suddenly poor people have stuff and it's like complete and total bullshit But but somehow we bought it and made a lot of policy around it. So to me, that's a capital i idea, right? Um, if if you're lucky you propagate your idea and it becomes a meme like laffer curve I think is a meme right trickle down economics is a meme and in my brain. There's all a different thought about I might even use the word memes. I'm not sure but but sort of The the the conservative side of american politics is really good at choosing phrases like the death tax It's normally called the estate tax, but when you call it the death tax, it sounds terrible Who wants a death tax right death panels? When when clinton was trying to do in and obama were trying to to change insurance They they would pick terminology that made these things sound terrible And then tax and spend liberals and all those things those are memes that were very intentionally propagated across conservative america And are used all the time and you can see them and smell them The left is really not good at this the left is just somehow ignorant of all this even though the left has george lakeoff Who really cares about language and memes and all that and lakeoff is a friend by the way So if you wanted, uh, yeah, yeah, he used to live near me in berkeley and been to a couple events with with george um So for me a little idea is the juicy stuff that we're talking about That we would maybe like to turn into a capital idea and a me Yeah, right. So so little ideas are like chicks like idea chicks and they're bouncing around going peep peep peep And we're trying to dress them up make them grow big and strong and then make them into like the big idea that moves around and and To me this conversation is this this question is important because If we can change the big ideas and the memes that that are common Into the kinds of things we're talking about here commenting and minding the commons and being generative together Um, we can then affect a huge social global change So other than that I got nothing Oh, I was gonna say that feels like a pretty good slope to me um But I wonder if something as simple as a thought is underneath the idea because I can get triggered by a word or an image or Um a catch of some kind Which then leads to a framing of a preliminary thought, but it hasn't been fully developed You know, it has moved to the little I idea But it hasn't been fully developed and perhaps with the input of other people into The large I idea And then then I guess somewhere along the line it would be nice to move the meme making out of the Uh unconscious into the conscious more consistently Because I think that we're hooked by people who have the ad campaigners or the um word strategist Creating memes that are deliberately doing certain things That aren't actually consistent with the capital I idea Yes, and there's a really big disjunct between The words and the actual actions or intentions of the idea, which yeah, which is a mess So That's all I have. Sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt. Oh, not at all. No, no I'm hoping you jump into that. This is this is all All open for me at the moment because I've gotten all the thought which I just would like to introduce here That is the difference between a meme and a paradigm And I was a paradigm a meme and a paradigm So you you call trickle down economics a Meme I'm wondering is it not a paradigm? Which is time-based And I'm experimenting in my thinking with something that's not yet Really clear, but I'll use the example. I'm thinking about Most western cultures Have a myth similar to pandora's box Be careful what you wish for don't drop the lamp. You'll never get the genie back in And if non-western cultures also have similar Stories and myths Are they kind of messages from something somewhere? Intelligence consciousness that people have to know not time-bound like trickle down economics But there are certain things you shouldn't do or touch um, so So trickle down economics. I think is both a meme and a paradigm um, and and it's funny like I don't really like conversations where you get down to like fine-grained definitions or distinctions between mission Mission purpose value goals strategy tactics like those get really can they get overly Restrictive when you get when you lock them down too much But and they're broadly useful, but once you start like getting semantically finicky that it doesn't work But for me trickle down economics is both by meme I mean a really lightweight Flimsy little phrase or image or or catchy tune the reason the reason companies have jingles For their products is that the jingle if it's successful is a meme and if I go You know what company I'm talking about that's intel inside right and it's called an audio signature And I know a woman aubrey I've forgotten her last name who's like a magician around audio signatures Uh, she works with kevin clark and has been doing this for years and years and years And that and she's trying to invent little audio memes right The paradigm is the larger set of of ideas behind the meme And and a paradigm might contain and float multiple memes And you know if you cross your fingers you hope that some of them catch on and propagate the idea of a meme Is propagation a meme is like a it's it's an idea virus It's a you know talk to dug rush cough about his the first book that made him famous, which was media virus I think back in the day Uh, and dug is also a friend if you want to contact him, but But but it's all about just transmissiveness and and you know a virus that is very contagious is really effective A virus that kills its host too quickly is not that effective because it runs out of hosts And and that's interesting here actually at first I thought what who cares about that in this analogy, but then I'm like, oh wait trickle down economics Right, right? So so so the mortality rate from it is slow enough and long enough That it doesn't get rid of the poor people like right away. Go ahead judy Well, that just caused a quick fire in my my head about Maybe I'm have been using for a long time the wrong approach to introduction of Change of thought and I should be starting at little I idea So that people come along on the ride Instead of trying to present a well-developed idea Which is more complicated to understand and may or may not reflect their buy-in potential And and it's like turning upside down my pyramid of knowledge From a communication engagement pattern. I'm going to have to think about that a lot today and in the coming days because I think It's something we need to think about in terms of everything that we're doing in ogm Because we're such a group of intellectuals. We're used to dealing with football and ideas and picking them apart and all that kind of stuff That's not the rest of the world And and my hope is that we boil these things down to simpler things like memes and catchy things Yeah, yeah, it's sort of like the reverse knowledge tree, you know, how do you how do you get to the nugget? And then move from the nugget along the paths because that's really how you integrate information as a human and so It's I'm going this is going to keep me thinking for a week jerry So a couple of the things from what you said hank There's a We've talked about this in a couple ogm calls But there's a guy named adrian han who's a game developer who wrote a really interesting piece About whether qanon is an alternate reality game So is qanon an arg and if you think about it there's a mysterious character named q nobody knows who q is Although there's suspicions q keeps dropping, you know crazy information about how you know, this thing is going to happen and Which everybody then follows just like an arg And it you know qanon is sort of just an arg with like really bad real world consequences It's an arg that's taken out, you know taken life In the real world and i'll i'll put the link to that to that article in a sec But i want to come back to what you said earlier about pandora's box and there's kind of It's kind of things that cultures need to teach their kids And they take they take they have to show up because they're part of staying alive on earth and trying to make things together And they take different forms and formats and sometimes there's contagion of them because the same myth carries and then you know A lot of the greek gods become roman gods. They just get a different name Right and and the attributes are the same and you can sort of even reuse the same statue But they're repurposed because somebody needs to represent war and somebody else needs to represent the hunt and somebody else needs to represent love Because that's how we're thinking about things and we're trying to personify these things about being human And then there's this other there's just totally other thread about morphec resonance Which was a thing that Rupert Sheldrake came up with and he was like There was a there was like a month when when the starlings over here learned to take hold the caps off of Milk bottles in england in five different cities or two different cities You know on the same month and they we don't think they talked to each other How did that happen? And I think morphec resonance has sort of been debunked, but sometimes there's like there's something in the air Hey, bill. How you doing? And And I think that's really interesting as well and in that in that sometimes those get manifest and Until 20 years ago when the inner inner tubes start getting big We don't have the ability to send something around the world at zero cost zero marginal cost Uh all nearly instantaneously, right? And and we did all that without thinking through the implications So a lie can get around the world, you know 10 times before truth has a chance to get its pants on Uh, which which was said in a day before even I think that maybe the telegraph was there I don't think much more than the telegraph was there when when that was said So so now we have instantaneous communication and nobody figured out that If there's lots of people with with really bad incentives On top of the same medium that they might actually be able to take advantage of this Yeah, uh bill. We've got uh, we I know I'm sorry. I had a bunch of uh We had a little bit of a sick dog issue yesterday. I was I was running around delivering stuff to the vet Picking up meds and you know, hope the dog's better. Oh, yeah. Well, you know He seems to be uh, he's got a little whatever, you know, there's a dog He's a dog Is that really yeah, well, he's not really, you know, he's not really concerned with this comments business. Yeah Of course not But he's probably more reliable than most humans. So that's important to preserve Well, anyway, so I'm sorry. I was I wasn't able to jump on earlier That's all right. I only came on about 15 minutes ago So I just want to make sure before when you leave. What is there any actions I can take to follow up that would be productive So a couple things We're in the generative commons channel on matter most so you'll find notes from the whole conversation there Early in the call we created a google doc and put that link in there Which is basically a draft invitation letter Because what we realized on the first call two weeks ago that we need to broaden this conversation that there's a bunch of people Probably interested in this so let's invite in a bunch more people and see who shows up So we were brainstorming in the chat You'll see names of people from laurence less, you know It starts with laurence lessig and then goes to a bunch of other people And then later we included like we need cartoon art cartoonists and the songwriters and creative people also because And that got us into a conversation about memes and ideas Which is where you jumped in at the end here. Hank had asked like there's a burning question in his head and laif Edmondson's head and and so forth about what's the difference between a small idea a big idea and a meme So that's the last little riff we've been on here And and for me, I'm still this this notion of less is more is exploding in my head in terms of how to get to To not even attempt to develop much of a plan before you present it to people to bring them in earlier in the plan process um, it went from little i to big i to to Next step and to meme and i'm not even at the meme stage although maybe the meme circles back to the little i Because if you've got a meme that works for the little i then you can get a lot more people involved um, but this notion of Not trying to develop the academic treatise first to present to people for criticism instead Present the little i idea and engage them in the development of a pre-agreed upon process Yep, and maybe it has its horrible roots and attributional principles You know who are the academics and other forms of valuation of people and Capability has to do with what they developed independently hence the dissertation Which only you did that is unique and proves you can do it yourself Which is the Antithesis of what we're trying to talk about here Yeah I agree Judith. I think that's for me. I think the academic thing is Important because there's a lot of really useful well researched information Oh, absolutely You know, but I think I think academia as itself is that uh, they're at the same turning point the rest of us are And if they don't get to act together people are just going to go find other ways to learn. I don't need Whatever this This thing is over here The thing I would hate to lose is the body of all knowledge and Whatever to the extent it is actual truth and knowledge and so forth Which is part of what the the more traditional approach assures occurs because of the nature of documentation Or yeah, I think I I agree completely about that You know We still need that we still need the library of alexandria. I think if we're trying to engage the world in movement to save the world We don't have time to try to address the educational gaps of all the people we need to start at common language and simple actions and Engaging them in co-developing the simple actions so they have ownership and skin in the game If also if you leave a ladder nearby or a path in a map People will follow it. So the the hole in the wall project basically Improved in a really blunt way that just leaving resources at hand people are really pretty smart and they'll figure it out You know and kids taught themselves english Um to figure stuff out that mattered. Oh, yeah, there was some story for me number. Sorry. Just left a computer Yeah, I mean, yeah, they didn't really do much. It's just you know, here's the Switch and here's like blah So got a mitra basically punches a hole in a hole in a wall buries a monitor behind it So nobody can rip it off and and take it Puts a track pad or something like that next to it Uh, so that you know people can learn how to the kids can learn how to navigate it And then doesn't leave any instructions doesn't do anything And walks away and these kids start to figure out how to use it Yeah, there was a long time ago. There was somebody from tesh mania who was wrote a piece in the itre an itrebole general about The real thing to do What we in the west should should do for people who want to learn about computers Did you just teach him here side these machines operate? They don't need don't give them any programs like word and just here's how these things operate Well, I'm I'm ambivalent on that one because because the power tools take a long time to to to show up Well, I'm back on uh, girona macy's storm it and development little oh interesting Where she said you just got to go ask the people the people where they are and know what they need And when you can be here, I got the answer to how you can like solve you know, it's like Yeah, just keep walking, you know This is I know I'm on this thing. There's just a little bit What's the book you're referring to? Dharma and development. Oh dharma and development. This is joan joana macy. Yeah, from a long time ago. I mean it's I have some worn copy down in my library I mean, I can get a reference for you if you can't find it, but I'm pretty sure it's not in print anymore Cool, I hope somebody puts it Dharma and development boom Okay, if it's not in print the place I go for those things is a be all American book exchange You can you can usually find almost anything there might not happen immediately, but it'll show up Yeah, anyway, I don't want to get out of my reading more about I'm in a big reading phase about post capitalism and sweet So it's available on on amazon Okay, 30 bucks as a paperback seems to be the only format. Yeah I pop it in the matter most list. So yeah, $30 feels like a lot of money. That's a really that's like real That's like real money. Yeah, yeah, what I bought it You probably found it a garage sale for 99 cents Yeah, well anyway, but but she but she was writing about how you know actually you can aid people who you know It was more like getting out of the You know where they developed world and we know things. Yeah, like yeah, but what you don't know is what I need right here In my community, so Cool. Anyway, that's a so I think the count. I think you're right about trying to get an invitation into more But you know, this is a huge huge It's bigger than a pumpkin. There's a bigger than my zoom box. Yeah, this thing is You know, yeah, I'm outside the window. Oh, nice. You're thinking thinking outside the zoom right here over here over here Um, cool Anything I should look at look at that letter and make comments or yes Look at that letter make it better. Uh, anyway, you want either comments or direct editing anybody who anybody who has the link can edit Um, and the idea of the letter and it's a little longer than it should be right now already But the idea is to send this to potential participants in the generative commons conversation and project Yes, so I think great. Do you have any ideas about what the if I were to invite somebody? Here's the next this project next steps are um, so Join join join the Wednesday calls and get on the matter most chat is what I'd say Okay, and then and then and then on these calls is where we'll figure out what else to do and and so, okay I would say we're still in the little eye going to eye stage on what the generative commons is I mean, there are people all the way along the continuum to it to an image that's far complex Well beyond where The cohesiveness is at this point Right, um, there's people sort of people with a lot of knowledge jumped immediately to how do we keep it from being folks and how do we Deal with intellectual property issues and things like that Um, and I think those are important But in terms of developing the whole commons to make it useful for the most people We need to expand the bubble Yeah, and I think for sure that I know that in Some other communities I mean I'm just in that knowledge management for development the k.m. For deaf people They have touched on these issues and You know, I know there's people involved with the un development calls and all this you know and international scientific data who have also wrestling with these issues about There's especially the property issues about Information I'm super interested in What they've learned what they've decided what they wish they had, you know, what is that community? figured out about knowledge management for development because because because from my sort of like Critical historical perspective. It's like why is the world's best knowledge locked away in vaults everywhere? So apparently people who are smart write books and books are where they put everything the best thing they know And books are locked behind DRM because god forbid you should actually liberate the ideas in a book So we're going to make you buy the book and then make it hard Hard hard to copy the materials out of the book and use it somewhere else despite fair use laws that Should make that really easy to do And then scientific papers are locked inside of scientific journals and journal databases locked behind paywalls They're mostly and people like erin swartz who try to liberate them or the woman who runs Uh, I'm totally say hub exactly They're demonized because what they're trying to do is make this damn science available They're demonized by the people running, you know springer. They're not demonized by scientists in the field who You know It's my open paywall Little thing doesn't light up green. Yeah, I go to syhub. Yeah, and that's because I'm not associated with the university I don't have any I'm just a citizen in the world here So exactly and then and then you get these sort of in between spaces like archive arxiv.org not the internet archive, but the physics The physics pre-print server, right? And so suddenly now there's pre-print servers and everybody's sharing out their papers before they go to the scientific journals Which is like the scientific journals like no, you can't do that and well, there is there is a there is a robust conversation among across several generations of scientists in many fields About this exact issue So I think that's part of the conversation we need to sweep in we need to like figure out how it fits the generative commons agreement Yeah, I think we might find things that are that people are already doing that so that do not have to be reinvented as what because Where do we look for that or who do we talk to bill? Yeah, let me try and find I would I would love love love love love to know that from both from the big science perspective like like, you know standard academic and applied in whatever science But also from the technology for development perspective like for for applied for development And and Hank what you just typed in the chat is I think one of the operating principles of ogm I'm trying to surface that it's like, let's not let's never reinvent the wheel If some if somebody is doing something, let's stop doing it and join them and help them Uh, you know, and and let's only build stuff Where it's missing and need and necessary. Yep Well, I just I just want to share a little story. I gave a paper once and I was berated by somebody in the audience because I hadn't read some kind of blah blah blah and After the talk was over an older gentleman in the front He said don't even listen to those people said that the wheel had not been reinvented We wouldn't have it today That's good because no one, you know Just it doesn't so I think it's good not to reinvent the wheel, but that also You know, it's a big world. There's a lot of people and a little bit of reinvention, you know, it goes a long way Yeah, that's how you get to know things Exactly and and what we're talking about is to amplify the reinvention and refactoring of everything Yeah, see that's where it's like well, so if you want to boil the ocean right there's an engine There's the like there's like we're going to boil the ocean then just for me. There's a woo woo solution today You know, and then there's the engineering solution, which is a pot at a time, right, right, so So there's a neighboring question that I'm not sure we're addressing yet It is probably important to address which is the reason there's so much over protection of commons is that people Need to make a living want to make a living in fact people want to fill large pots of Large pots with gold and they have by creating these overweening ip regimes that we're trying to sort of mitigate against But there's a big active question in the back of my head, which is how do people make a living while feeding the commons? Right and there's some there's some pragmatic answers to that Which is the story I tell over and over again about ibm and open source code And ibm was was in a death spiral when I was a tech analyst when I joined as a tech analyst in 80 and 92 ibm was like the 600-prime gorilla in the room when ibm did something we jumped we sent out Fed exes to our clients with our analysis of the new announcement the whole thing And then like five years later ibm is on the ropes and about to die because sun and apollo are eating their lunch And they can't seem to make anything interoperate and then they adopt open source and then suddenly two years later They're making two or three billion dollars in service revenues on top of open source software by customizing the same software that they know everybody else can use And that's super interesting Yeah, so what is the what is the analogous route for other kinds of creators so they can make a living While feeding the generative commas and for me that's another big important quest for ogm Right and and so one of the reasons I'd love and this feels so far away But I'd love to stand up a story threader's guild or practice That is a business that where people hire story threaders to come to their events and and weave Narratives from the pieces that would be missed by other people and let us enrich the conversation Or other kinds of gildy practices one of the reasons I want to stand those up is that I think that human performance of human skills amplified by cyborg technology Are the way to go You know the the way that Pete Kaminsky can research things and pipe them into a chat in near real time I call maven mavenology I tried to convince him 20 years ago to buy the domain mavenology and to like train other people to do this But but he wants to do other sort of stuff But but that should be a skill the corporations want and or and nonprofits want to hire because they actually need a peat in their meeting Having they don't know it yet, but having a peat in their meeting is going to enrich the meeting Yeah, well, these are already have you know that we already know a couple of people. So there's vincent Right, right. So he's also pretty good at just like, you know air table Yeah, wait, give me two minutes and I'll fix one up for your meeting Yeah, I mean it's it's there are people I mean this is I think what you're saying is it it is happening. We might not see it all but So at this point like we can name a few people who love doing these things and we haven't figured out how many different Practices or guild areas there are which would be a super interesting conversation to have Although when we did the guild call on Tuesday a couple Tuesdays ago We got stuck on the word guild. So we didn't actually get it into the meat of the discussion um, but there's not a lot of people out there doing these things and and So 30 years ago Nobody knew what a graphic facilitator was and nobody was hiring one and there weren't any people who had that on their business card, right? and then The idea of drawing what people are saying Became popular and suddenly it was a thing and these days today I need a graphic facilitator means I can google it. There's a bunch of little companies that'll that'll Will let me hire one It's fantastic and it could be better, but it but that exists as a thing These other things we're talking about don't exist at that level at all yet And I'm saying how do we and how do we to convert them from a little idea? To a big idea to a meme to a practice and a business and a job title Okay, um that makes sense it makes a lot of sense The work that I'm doing right now for myself, which is generative is The work about what's the next What is going to be the next? what do I say socio-economic Way that we get things done because what you what you just said, yes, it's more of the same Well, how do you mean like it's when people are how do I like you know get away from you know What can I do that I can charge for I mean the hope that the book i'm reading post capitalism, which is like five years old now yep Basically the argument that pal mason is making which I don't completely understand yet because it's pretty complex, but is that capitalism has run out of mutations that it can do to keep producing profits And the end result and the end result is going to be something different And there are people right now, you know who are pushing for that not just means something not just you know democratic socialists who have an idea All lason says, yeah, there's a lot of good there and Socialism socialists are also hung up on some things that they could learn So there's something like the paul romer economics article about endogenous technological change Where he really threw the whole monkey wrench into what happens in information products You know is that ideas are non rival Paul mason says we could use a better word. We could just say shareable kind of less technical But that That is where the The juice is now in the 21st century Not so much in material like the typical capitalist materials labor Right, he said even capital itself like we like we have we have exhausted all the financial shenanigans You can do with capital, right? So there are no new ones We have the ones we have like all that stuff with derivatives and making money out of money and lovely he says, yeah it's but he says There's not a future for that I mean, I don't understand it's all but he's pushing this thing like information Right information technology is changing these long economic waves that people have talked about for centuries He said, yeah, it's different now So really different and capitalism species capitalism has been able to mutate Whereas a marcher said, yeah, it's just going to crash and burn because the work was going to take over You know a capitalist said now we can go find a new market over here and send new consumers over here And a little bit of this and push this down and hey look, we got another business in another 50 years of like that's great I mean, you know, but there are world wars and stuff that Also juice the system Go ahead Judy, but there's So just this piece here that I don't but these pushy get there is something Different that is going to force us to think differently about how We work and even how we end up rewarding each other for that Modulo, as you say, we're still living in this neoliberal capitalist hellhole in which case, you know I still gotta, you know, figure out my copay when I go to the doctor Which is no worse than that worse than that I had some skin cancer five years ago or whatever and there were three different procedures to remove it I'm like, so what's the cost differential? Which is a question I shouldn't have to ask which was unanswerable Like well, we don't know you need to call the building department and they might be able to give you an estimate Like seriously, I know seriously. Sorry, judy. I go ahead Well, I have lost whatever the glimmer of a thought was because the conversation kept going and I was divergent here But the the thought I had when you were talking bill about the old system Being archaic it all had to do Fundamentally with ownership rather than collectivism and so it seems to me that the the nugget of this is We're now into the ideas are moving so fast That you can't stop it and own it because it's already spreading. So it's a contagion of idea and the if there's I'm not sure where it's going to go in terms of attribution of value to it You know, but maybe it's some sort of really low-paced Use tax, you know a penny a pinch or something because The if you want it to move fast, you don't want to Fence it in you want to spread it out, which is what we've been talking about in all of these directions And I'm not I'm doing a terrible job of framing this because I kind of I thought I had a wise remark And then I kept listening and I got diluted in my brain. So no, no, I think you're just I'm saying right there for sure A couple thoughts. Judy one thing that I do to cheat To solve the problem you just had is I use the chat as my Placeholder short term memory and I don't hit return So so in my chat usually I've got a bunch of things that I'd like to say Just in case and then sometimes somebody else says them or whatever Sometimes I just hit return and they I just put them in the chat because we've moved on and whatever And then and pretty often I get to go back and go this this this and the reason I can I can rattle off five things is that I wrote them down in the chat as a cheat for myself well I guess where I was where my my head was taking it and again it was this II Mean kind of regression. Um was that That I think humanity needs to go From I to shared I to capital I really fast right now And I think that's so intrinsic in our intuitive Unaware sense of what's going on around us That it's it's kind of like the snowball rolling downhill. I don't think we're going to stop it What we want to do is facilitate it and we want to learn how to be better at doing it ourselves So that whenever we're in whatever group we're in, you know Could be the line at the supermarket or something and you overhear a conversation You pop in a complimentary with an E and an I aspect to the conversation Because it reinforces the notion that's under development in the head of whoever's making the comment and that's the kind of Fiery expansion model That I think we need to galvanize the action that's necessary And then the the folks who have the capacity to take action If they like the the little I or the I They'll modify the little I to the I they want and they'll do something. I mean, it's like it's like Vincent You know, you can hardly say three words before he's already got it done someplace And there's a lot of other people like Vincent Um who do the same thing So I think this is this is an exciting dimension that we're talking about here in terms of for me bringing hope That you know, because it's intrinsically enabling of every individual who contributes to the little I becoming the I And that's what's been absent In so much of what we've done I've got a whatever in my throat But it's just The process has been more excluding than including In history and so if we can get it It's it's not socialism in the sense of power of the socialism. It's socialism in the sense of this is it's communityism You know, it's shared it's shared responsibility So David Bollier calls it communism And I'm Italian it's Yoni talks about communitarianism as well. He's been on communitarism forever Um three short things. I put a link that says what are our two new stacks And bill the the question in my brain and in my head that frames the the quest you're you're on is I'm borrowing software stacks Basically like the lamp stack and I'm saying that we're we're in a transition We're in a punctuated equilibrium era where occupy arab spring All these different protests and movements are basically saying the social contract is screwed Like we need something better And to me the two new stacks are the societal stack and the organizational stack And they may they may overlap. I don't really know how this ends up But when I say stack, it's like what are the agreements and methods for the next 100 years from now when we look back will be like Oh, you know the the 2020s and 30s is when we switched to the new stack And and I don't know what the components of the new stack are and some of them may well be post capitalist And I take I take very much what you said earlier about what I'm describing as a way of surviving within the old model absolutely Second point is I don't see any countries at this moment experimenting with post capitalism I don't see that as a successful experiment anywhere on earth yet Right. We have china is has moved toward capitalism with the chinese flavor Which by the way, they're they're starting to call the sharing economy april There's this trope between april and me where she has a google query for sharing economy and now every day like china declares that that chicken pellets are in the sharing economy and You know plastic powders are in the sharing economy and april laughs and i'm i'm frustrated because Because and this is a little digression But because for me china figured out that sharing economy was a better meme to explain Capitalism with a chinese flavor than any other language They'd found and sorry sharing economy people who were actually sharing things were so sorry But this actually I think this feels better for chinese the china chinese government to explain where they're headed with A blend of capitalism and communism or something like that. Anyway, that's my own take on this And then last note hank you mentioned in the chat that that the old system was about ownership I have a very different narrative about that and my brief riff is Many people's view of history is that we were tribal and poor and hungry and didn't live very long And then we got religion and then we got countries and then we got corporations and here comes the singularity And that the arc of human progress and civilization is this upward Curving thing and I totally reject that My notion of history is that long ago around the world Those of us who survived because we were really good at killing ourselves off by exhausting our resources But those of us who survived understood how to live in community on the commons And if you go back into indigenous ways of knowing around the world, you will discover terms like moon eye and iu and a kaitiakitanga from the from the Māori I collect them in my brain Words about reciprocity and relationship and stewardship and ownership which were taught and that is how they stayed alive And so my belief is that around the world we knew how to live in community on the commons And when I say on the commons, what I mean is they were managing the landscape not individual plots of separately owned land So if you read dark emu or sand talk or a couple of the books about australia You'll discover that if you read the journals, there's one called the biggest estate on earth If you read the journals of the first fleet the first europeans who settle in australia And you read their journals and they say It's so interesting, you know, we ride our horses inland and it's like it's a forest garden you reach up There's an apple you reach down. There's a gourd you can walk your horses through the clearings What a beautiful place that nature created And they look at these lazy horrible indigenous people who are sitting there You know the indigenous way of the aboriginal way of fishing one of the ways was You set up a weir in the river you put a bunch of big stones in the river And all year around the big stones are in the river just before you know the fish are going to run You go put the big stones at the bottom of the weir that block the weir and turn it into a trap You then sit and party by the side of the river when the weir is full You go throw the fish on the shore drive them salt them do whatever you're going to do And now you have abundant abundant fish for a while And there's a bunch of other ways of trapping fish and catching fish that look lazy But they're incredibly intelligent because you have 60 000 years Of figuring this thing out and you pass it down through oral traditions, right? And the europeans didn't recognize Any of this is valuable and then they brought sheep which basically ate the landscape that had been managed and destroyed the whole thing Like wholesale and then they were busy trying to like westernize all but they did the same thing that the you know american and canadian Educational systems did which was try to try to stamp out all of this wisdom So my belief is that around the world we had understood how to manage the landscape That europe in particular went and destroyed it worldwide You know the the treaty of thorn of the sea yes The pope basically says to the spanish and the portuguese When you go exploring around the world if the people you meet don't know the name of jesus christ They are heathens and you are allowed to take them in their lands They are yours and they showed up with guns and germs and steel That the other people didn't have and they won Like like cortez's takeover of the aztec and my empire is astonishing 300 spaniards Like it's astonishing, but it happened Right and and so now we're trying to hit undo on a lot of this stuff and you can't really hit undo so decolonization Is the attempt to to like figure out how do we rebalance? What do we do where do we go and we're having a really hard time of that and in the middle of this There's some smart people like mason who are saying hey, here's how capitalism was really really really fucked up How do we get to a new model? How do we hit undo on that and and again bill? I don't know who's actually having any successful experiments like the closest i see is basic income experiments in different places and And also some countries like bolivia and ecuador that are giving rights to nature But that hasn't turned into really productive stuff yet. I would love to see post capitalism actually run as experiments And so then you move over into cryptocurrencies, which don't feel to me like a solution So a lot of people like blockchain and bitcoin will fix this But then in the middle of all that are these little fledgling experiments with shared value And how do we recognize value creation and those are really cool, but they're not getting much attention Sorry for the long rift, but but but okay, this is why we need more slower Longer conversations. Yes, seriously Because that is like, you know a dense pack From uh, you know mackalski, which is super rich You know, and there's a lot to be and there's a lot to you know Yeah, but I think they really need to be you know extended or expanded or You know made you know used again in a different way because the whole for me a whole issue with china is like You know, well china is going to fix things right because they got a bunch of engineers. They're also completely authoritarian government Yeah, yeah, and and their culture is just totally different. Yep. Totally different And if you're in the united go ahead judy Well, I was just going to throw in the word dendritic because that's what we're talking about Gotta talk about dendrites because that's how you work You know, so just that link you just did you know anime from paul's latest book That real that nice. I say in the times. Yeah So that's a gold mine total gold mine. Yeah, also she's saying things that a lot of people just I mean, I think she said in the beginning there about just this kind of overwork I'm just going to beat learning. I'm just going to sit up all night until I understand it you know, there's like Kind of macho studying. Yeah, which I did plenty of it. It's like that's not really work I mean, it doesn't really I mean you get something But at some point you really got to take a walk because your mind is like, you know, it's like frozen Well, well not only that but I think it would be a whole lot better if there were four of you confused at the same time Because you talk about it and you find clarity And so that's the that's the problem with traditional education And and why I'm trying to move everybody to talking about continuous learning because learning is an interactive process Yeah, and yeah and part of like coming into something new like I've gotten a little bit more into economics and development economics, you know and so I've read some stuff, but I'm like I'm like I'm I can have said to myself, you know, I really need to sit down and really just go through the whole online course You know from Samuelson, and I'm like no bill You don't have to do that You really do not have to study economics in five years before you can make a contribution here just I have someone else coming in. Sorry Sorry, thanks Hank. Keep keep going. I'll read more about it on the The matrimonial, but I've got another call in about four minutes The same more I've got someone else and hopefully see you next week Thank you. This is great. It would be nice to find a way to really because I think we need to read more Yeah, it's broader and free association. I'm into that kind of like discussion Absolutely. I just typed my cheating into the chat because you just said we've So two things I wanted to say like you just said then we're frozen and I thought what's the name of the hit song and frozen Let it go So there is that right And then the other question is for you personally and for everybody in ogm Like where are you weaving what you're learning? so so Like many people do blog posts and blog posts is an interesting unit of measure But blogs are very weak for weaving context there and people some people do very linky text, which I love like You know when a when a when a reporter knows enough in an article to put a bunch of very useful links in the middle of their piece I'm like this reporter knows where the world is heading awesome But for me the flow of stuff that disappear like blog posts like like they're just they're dated and they've drifted down down the blog Aren't enough so so I would I would love to mind meld my brain with your brain with you know Annie murphy paul's brain with other people's brains But I'm the only one I know who's curating like how this stuff connects up together in this weird tool That's slightly wonky to use called the brain That lets me do that. So how do we how do we move forward on that so that all the thinking you're doing and studying you're doing Is easily shared into this collective thinking medium Well, I'm going for massive wiki myself. Um, okay, I should use uh, you know obsidian to create linked objects Which are some little excerpts. Yeah, you know the problem with the massive wiki is the front end is still a little a little geeky Uh, no just a little Um, and it's not good enough. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, that's the word it's inadequate for what to you know It would be better if you looked at if you took obsidian and did that You know the knowledge graph on my obsidian notes you get more information than the meant than the wiki. Yeah um, so Yeah, I don't I don't know what to do about that right now jerry. I've been struggling with that for a long time Perfect. So a couple things um Pete just had a fire lit under his butt by jordan recently Um, I don't think I'm over sharing here, but jordan basically said hey Like what's your plan for massive and and and jordan sort of said to pete like that sounds like a five-year plan At what what would it take to do this in six months? Like off the top of your head, how many people would you need as devs to do this? Yeah, pete told me this. He had me. I only he said yeah, and jordan was like, you know, how many people you need to hire Excellent, you know, whatever Well, if I get that um We're just about wrapping up our conversation, but you're welcome to join it. I'm murley. I'll come back in a few minutes Okay, you're well. Totally welcome to hang out and join this conversation And we are may man. I'll still be going in a few minutes because I gotta go. Okay. Good. Um Um Yes, I understand. I think the massive it would be I would like to see some money lit under this thing and produce Because what we really use it is a front end that allows people to Get into it but experimenting with that front end is something I would like to sort of help host curate because I'm not sure pete's vision for what to do with it is the thing that I want to end up using Is Oh good Yeah, so so and the way pete is architecting it's open so somebody else can write a front end and like You know, awesome I'm very interested in what that front end does and how it works like what you know What it lets us do what it's optimized for what it's good at what it's not good at all that kind of thing And I think that's an important conversation for us to have so that one of my goals is Could millions of people seem to understand how to use instagram pinterest snapchat. What have you twitter? And they're posting like crazy Like there's a huge volume of those of those little individual small units of of content And they're they're using hashtags in a very sophisticated way and hashtags equals metadata. That's great How do I add a tiny amount of complexity to that simple act? That's very popular to then get the richness that I get from the brain Because coming in and starting to use the brain is overwhelming for most people. I tried that I looked at it Instagram is not overwhelming for most people. They're like got it done it If I were to add two things to instagram, I might be able to represent the brain stuff and and so Michael Grossman who started factor has a very instagramy kind of platform and is really willing to experiment I'm like, why don't we suck my brain data into factor and then add a couple features to factor that do that and let's see where that goes Well, how's you got me so the job I would so that sounds great and I would but I would you know if we were going to do that I would take some I would lop off a piece of your brain. I'm like an engine when I look at this I'm an engineer start small keep it simple be successful And it's the top of the hour So we should probably hold our call But this has been like thank thank you both for showing up when you showed up. It was magical and important Well, you're welcome. Yeah Again, sorry, I was late but crazy day Judy I'm not sure you were late. I think you were just in time for what the universe intended somehow Here we go Yeah, and did I mention the power did I mention the law of attraction yet? Yeah, don't get too don't don't pull that gravity stuff on us. All right All right, buddy. Sounds good. Take care. All right. Bye