 I think it's really good. I can hear Bobby really well. You can eat the goose meat though. Your connection is lagging a little bit, but it will do. It's good enough. Alright, so are we ready to go? We are, we are. Yeah, I think we're live already. Live, live. So you're the moderator now, Frank. I'm the moderator. Okay, Frank. You can just, yeah man. Guys, what up? Today we have some technical difficulties. Frank, before you start, a little bit louder. A little bit louder. Louder. Yeah. Charles, talk louder. I'm me louder. Like this? Is it good? Good, okay. Guys, what up? You're live. Not good? Not good? Not really that loud. I can hear Frank perfectly fine. Your sound is like a 5 out of 10. So it's not really loud. Can you attach a headset or something? Hold the phone closer. Charles, why don't you just sit over here? Do it like one head forward. Yeah, you could do that. And like this? It's good? Better? Yeah, that's okay. Better? Okay. Let's disconnect them. Let's just disconnect it. It's really good. Do you hear me? Hear me, Bobby, right? It's okay. It's all right, man. It's not perfect. It's all right. So guys, Ni Hao from Taiwan. We finally made it happen. It's not perfect, but we made it happen. I'm here live with Bobby from Bobby's perspective and our buddy Frank Yang. And what are you going to talk about today? Are you good? Okay, just my assistant had to grab my phone. Okay, good. What are you going to talk about today? I don't really know so far, but I guess you're going to talk about like perhaps psychedelics, even spirituality. I know veganism was a big topic for Bobby. All kinds of stuff. Let's see. Before I start, I want to introduce Frank to my audience. Frank, do you hear me? I don't see you, by the way. I don't see me. I see him. He's jumping back and forth the way we are. Okay, so people see you. Okay, cool. So just a little backstory. I like to talk about how I found out about my guests. So Frank, I guess I watched your video since like 2012 or 2011. And you started to make videos about like bodybuilding, the gym, like gaining muscle mass, but then finally enough, you went into like neurobiology and you ended up at like spirituality. And when I asked you to introduce your topic from your channel to like other people, you said it's about the transformation of consciousness. So can you talk a little bit about your evolution of your content? I first started doing just, you know, fitness and I always just wanted to you know, transcend and take things to the next level. And so the first you get the body and then the body evolves into the brain and once you get into the brain and the evolution of the brain tends to the mind and the mind turns to the consciousness and then it goes all the way back because consciousness includes the body and the brain. Everything was rising in consciousness. How did you do realization or what happened? When? Like how did you make this realization because I know people, they work out since like 20 years, but they never make this connection. Genetics, bro. Genetics. It's not genetics. What would you say about how did you find out about Frank's content? About Frank's content. Yeah, so first and foremost before we start, I want this on the record so to speak. Frank, and I found out about your channel just around about two years ago I think. And that was when you did the video on Rich Piana and Eckart Tolle going on a tinder date. Oh, dude. And that thing totally fucked my mind. I loved it. It's this very day. One of my favorite videos on YouTube probably. Yeah, this is how I found out about your channel. Absolutely amazing. I just re-watched it right now before starting the podcast again with the non-dual nothingness cock fantastic work. What about you? Thank you. Do you remember what it was about for the viewers or Bobby? No, what it was about. Yeah, Frank. The video about Eckart Tolle and Rich Piana. Rich Piana. Okay. I think it was about how they're both kind of the same because they're occupying two sides of the extreme. Rich Piana could be perceived as like pure eagle and Eckart Tolle could be perceived as pure consciousness and when something is pure it's non-dual so Eckart Tolle is like a non-dual consciousness guy and Rich Piana is kind of like a non-dual muscle head so they're kind of like in the opposite end of the spectrum and that kind of make the same and I think if you in one opposite side of the spectrum it's easy to flip over to the other side Yeah, so that's why Mike Tyson is smoking DMT and stuff too. For Dorian Yates. Yeah, Dorian Wraith as well. Right, Dorian Yates as well. That's true. This is the same with dietary dogmas as well if you think about it this way you see so many ex-vegans switching to raw carnivore even and you see them yesterday they were eating oatmeal today they're drinking blood so it's really, yeah, it's true that you can switch from one thing to the other especially if you are on that other extreme I always like to say the pendulum has to swing back so to speak for that it has to go to the other extreme to balance itself out again otherwise you can't really understand it but on the other hand if you explore both extremes like that you get an understanding of the whole spectrum all the time the so-called golden path yeah, that's the path of mediocrity as well so therefore you won't really understand the whole spectrum by going to those extremes you have a holistic understanding, right? I agree, yeah. That's totally true, I would say that too if you have two sides of the extreme covered you get the middle as well, you know and about you but we also want to talk a little bit about you because I was talking about you with Frank this morning like talking about your story a little bit like you were like raw vegan you became like a normal vegan and then you had like issues you became a raw carnivore so what's the thing about you right now are you like back in balance or what's new? Let me turn turn on the AC real quick I wish I had one too Good on you I wish I had one here too man I don't have an AC I'm sweating my balls off okay so what's new with you Bobby? Yeah so first and foremost we don't want to bore Frank too long with this vegan dietary dogma therefore I'm going to cut myself short even though on that note I have to say that No your noise Yeah On that note before quitting veganism one of the videos that made a humongous shift in my life I don't want to lick your balls or kiss your ass Frank but I have to say that as well because I watched one of your later videos about veganism where you're in that sushi restaurant with a family and you were describing how Oh yes Do you remember that one? It played a huge role because the thing is this I identified with a lot of things that you set but on the same token I found myself very restricted to really truly navigate through this reality if you have any label it is impossible right no matter what it is even if it is a religious label let's say you are a Muslim and you cannot eat pork you will be in a restrictive situation sooner or later with veganism it is of course even more extreme you will find yourself constantly battling dietary dogma if you want it or if you don't want it if you see somebody else eating meat you will automatically think about a dead animal and that is inescapable and thoughts will wander to that straight away if you're vegan it is impossible and therefore that was so restrictive and all the spiritual practice even though I hate that term all the psychedelics all the meditation and what not all the traveling everything came to that point where it didn't mean anything any longer because I was so restricted that all those teachings couldn't be applied at all and therefore I found myself every single day just struggling with this label just generating as well and this is when I made the switch and this is one of the moments when I saw that video of yours and I almost cried tears because it was so beautifully put the cycle of life and I was really beautiful I love your channel and this is something that I want to mention as well it's just mind blowing to me that you don't have 1 million followers because your content is so unique and it is one of not the favorite channel on YouTube for me personally and it just man it makes me frustrated that people don't understand that work it seems because for 10 years or how long have you been on YouTube about 10 years yeah I mean 160,000 followers it's not little but still for 10 years you see people and 2 years they have 1 million followers with 6 pack shortcuts or something and I find it quite frustrating because I see quality content which I would like many more people to see yeah but I didn't answer your question Charles at all I went on a rant that's good that's good yeah about the extremes again I don't feel that I am going to those extremes consciously in that sense it is not like saying you know what I want to drink blood and eat raw animal flesh right now because that is a conscious decision and I want to shove it to the vegans and tell them go fuck yourselves piss off I am going to drink blood that's not it it is more an intuitive approach of a certain aspect in life that was missing and therefore I find myself after 4 years of eating only plants eating predominantly animal flesh so every time I am trying out to balance it out again especially with bodybuilding we all know that carbohydrates have their place I still find myself drawn back to animal foods because my body simply doesn't react well to those plant foods even if I wanted to ideologically or out of a biomechanical standpoint to implement more plants I simply can't when I do I get all the symptoms again diarrhea, bloating and what not so therefore I just stick with what works and again this is why veganism cannot keep you in the current now if you will because if it isn't working try something else so if you have something that doesn't work right now with your diet hey you have no dogma to try tofu instead of fish you could if you wanted to and then you will see if it is better or worse but as a vegan if you are eating again tofu or lentils or beans and it does not work then you will have to stick to that approach maybe you can take a plant based protein powder maybe you can take some nuts, some seeds whatever but you cannot try sushi it's impossible because you are in the dietary dogma and with that you cannot be free so therefore again to answer the question I'm not choosing those extremes necessarily but I'm just going with the flow and I feel naturally if you will attract it to that type of eating right now but that will change as well probably like everything that's kind of like the same as when Charles asked me how my evolution came about it's just kind of unfolded naturally because I think we just want to go back to the source eventually and if you just follow the flow of things you can end up with the source you are going to go back to yourself the source is going to go back to itself it's kind of like my conscious decision to evolve from the body to like an artist or to focus on the body and then like the brain and the mind and consciousness at the same time from the bigger picture it's always that you're not really there's no expansion of consciousness consciousness is always there and every point every corner in the field of awareness is equally awake so like you don't really expand consciousness it's more like you're taking away kind of like Michelangelo's analogy of how he makes his sculpture he said the way he chips away at marble he's just freeing the spirit that's already inside so he's just chipping away like the components in a marble that's not necessary in a sense and the process of doing that it's kind of like it's automatic almost it's not really a conscious decision because like as an artist when you go into a flow state there's no doer there you just kind of just follow like your intuition and when you're already connected to the source during that flow state it's inevitable that it's going to go back to itself so it's kind of like the same process you know and then of course reality is always changing every moment it's like arising and passing away and every reality is like blinking in and out of the existence and vibrating and just punctuating and blinking like every every nanosecond is like a point of like birth and death you know, birth and death so there's just like evolution is just kind of accepting the truth that everything is impermanent and then whatever dogma beef or whatever like truth you have today it's not there again tomorrow Shijin Yang one of my favorite Vipassana teacher said like today's enlightenment is tomorrow's mistake you know 100% yeah 100% that's absolutely true on every single level that's pretty much everything we can enter what cares right now it's true absolutely true everything that is happening right now that can be accepted as truth in the present moment is not the truth later on I mean with simple things for example you're hungry right now the truth is you are hungry now you're eating now you're full the truth is not being hungry any longer it's simple as that and it is something that you can apply on everyday situations and this is why any dogma will always bring you out of that conscious awareness if you will I have a question for you Frank you said automatically first you were a bodybuilder if you will you became an artist wouldn't you say that it is always the same nature so to speak in the background that is essentially manifesting itself through different perceived actions in this reality but in the end it's always the same spirit for the lack of other words yeah I think it's the same I think it's because like form is emptiness you know emptiness is form so like in the background it's just the same like I said before every corner every point in the field of awareness is the same but the manifestation of that emptiness takes on different forms for me on a more relative I guess personal level everything that I do I have this goal of transcending before I got into bodybuilding I was really into vertical jumps and speed that's how I started lifting weights I wanted to jump higher and run faster it was a noise so like just that intrinsic kind of desire to keep like taking things to the next level and then like with the particle jump that's one of the best metaphors for it my first video on youtube is me jumping on like doing a box jump and that's sort of like it's a metaphor for my entire channel my entire journey in a way so it's all like the same it's all the same thing the thing about non-duality is it's never just one way or the other it's always both in either at the same time same but different yeah it depends on how you which side of the mountain you're peeking through you know the mind and body problem there's neither the mind or the body but if you look at reality from the inside there's only the mind but if you look at it from the outside from the third person from the more critical objective perspective there's matter or there's the brain but there's only one substance so sometimes a lot of people boggle down into just looking at thinking the mountain through one side without realizing that when they dig from one side they're also thinking from the other side same time everything is different but the same it's always neither or both so it's kind of like the cat I know that physicist you know I don't know that one you know how they measure the particles when they measure you you change this property so like a particle is both a wave and a critical point it's always like it's both and neither at the same time so like and then this is a meta analogy of how you put a cat in a box before you look at it it's neither in both dead or alive and then like the active perception sort of depends on you know how you perceive it changes its property but like before you look at it like it has the potentiality to be both dead and alive Shrodinger's cat right? Shrodinger's cat Shrodinger so Frank I'm curious what do you think is the next level what? what do you think, where is your channel going next? I don't know no idea just gonna keep updating, uploading my subjective experience yeah I have like the next few videos in mind and then depends I guess it's even getting better with the better cameras you know 360 camera and everything dude I'm curious for the future yeah yeah I mean with the 360 it definitely opens up the new dimension it's like the way the 360 looks it's kind of like it's like a 360 degree mirror almost right like instead of like that's how your perception is in reality like without the filter of the mind or without the filter of like the self kind of or the personal ego it's you don't really have a head from the matter of the red experience you don't really have a head you don't have a body either the body and the head are just sort of this reflection like a tiny speck of reflection on this 360 degree mirror that we all looking after right now and that's kind of like how the way that my 360 video looks yeah that's pretty sick Frank you mentioned two words there I think for the viewers sake let's focus it on that maybe they will get something out of it I know that many people that are not into spiritual topics they can't really have a clear understanding and it's pretty much like yeah telling a blind person how the world looks like if they never had an in depth experience but you mentioned two words there so one was transcendence and the other one was enlightenment so can you talk about those two words separately and describe what it means to you because enlightenment especially gets thrown around quite often we all read Jet McKenna so therefore maybe we have another perspective on it maybe not it is a very tainted description a tainted word lately especially in the new age movement so let us know what you think about those two words what does it mean to you for me transcendence it's easier to explain transcendence just means I guess what we talked about before the source going back to itself or just on a more like quantitative perspective you bench 300 today and the next time you bench 315 that's kind of a form of transcendence overcoming overcoming obstacles and adapting to a new stressor and then or a new stimuli and then you're wishing a new equilibrium and then doing it over and over again until it's sort of your baseline strength or in meditation or baseline awareness or in I guess maybe with bodybuilding your body fat set point now gets more and more efficient things like that so I think like just by being alive you're transcending like even people who aren't like self actualization just by being alive you're sort of automatically transcending all the time even the process of just reaching reaching death, reaching old age is kind of like a transcendence because for me death is the ultimate organism of life when you're dead when you really go back to the source kind of and I think speaking of enlightenment and talking about transcendence they're kind of interconnected and when Buddha's teaching actually if you want me to explain enlightenment for the Buddha a lot of people think he wants to end suffering through bliss and outer states of consciousness but like actually the highest form of meditation is actually a state called secession or blowout nabana in Sanskrit is actually just translated to a blowout or like a blackout so it's not really like an outer state of consciousness it's actually in a state where consciousness can't even go awareness can't even go like a death so to me enlightenment just means death but of course not like a literal death it's sort of like I guess you could say ego death but like ego is one of those words that are really convoluted to I don't really like to use same spirituality so enlightenment just means like not the death of the self but sort of um the death of your perception of what the self is kind of and you can get really like sort of practical or sort of how should I put it technical technical with the term enlightenment because like if you study the the suda the Buddha actually has a few requirements or insights that if you sort of realize them like experientially then you could be said to attain enlightenment and those insights are emptiness and no self and suffering and they're interrelated that is personally man because were you finished yeah you can you can cut in now I want to let you flow this is why I kind of hang back here now it just reminds me of a not only one mushroom experience but three consecutive mushroom experience that I had in Alkma the Netherlands before I started traveling the world five years ago because what we did there is we barricaded ourselves with couple of friends for two weeks straight and we would just wake up and an empty stomach would start eating mushrooms instead of breakfast right so we would just try to see what is what is there what is there what the true origin of all is and our approach was let's try it with mushrooms so we're going to start eating morning breakfast for lunch and for dinner right all day just mushrooms and on the last day of those two weeks I already experienced ego death but now I really want to push the envelope and see what is beyond because the ego death my frustration with the ego death was that it was still occurring in this reality so even though after the ego death I didn't identify with Bobby any longer and I could see that all of this creation is basically I and there is no separation I was still frustrated that I found myself in creation so I used that analogy of a simulation in that sense if you would imagine reality to be on a main server I still was in the server and I couldn't observe the computer from the outside and that frustrated me so therefore I want to push further and I ate 30 dried grams of magic mushrooms on that note for our viewers 5 grams it's already considered a heroic dose by Terence McKenna and with that I reached again this ego death and I got outraged I was so angry that I couldn't go further and I said all right now I need all the mushrooms in this room and my friends got together they gathered they couldn't take anymore they started cooking mushroom teas they started chopping up mushrooms and in the end we had like something around 100 dried grams of mushrooms and I started eating and eating and eating and eating and it took me around about one hour to physically eat all of those mushrooms and I want to see what's next what is after understanding that there is no self and this is when I totally passed out so that was the threshold there was only darkness and nothingness and there was no existence so no self seemed like the last step before nothingness but nothingness is something that cannot be articulated in reality it looked like that that I woke up around about 10 hours later totally shocked totally blown out of my mind that I'm still existing because before that I had no recollection of what just happened therefore your story just remind me of that the extrapolation of no self is no existence there is absolutely nothing that's great that's exactly what I was going for but I think it's the the insight that you gain from the moment before you lose consciousness and the moment that you return those are the most important sort of moments for insights into no self because at that moment you see how the entire structure of reality the entire structure of the external world or political external world or your entire structure the self or the matrix is constructed and once you kind of sort of see how that is the case how like everything is arising and passing even like your whole existence is arising and passing then you sort of you come back you exit the screen of like the video game or the computer frame whatever you're going to call it the program and then you come back and then you keep playing the game exactly and you play the game even more enthusiastically if you will at least that was my case because you understand that there is nothing else I agree I think a lot of people think that if you get into this spirituality thing you're going to lose motivation to like do things in life or like enjoy the pleasures of life but I don't think that's true I think like you enjoy even more like you feel things even deeper because without the filtering without the filtering of the self at least the belief of the self you actually feel the sensations or feel the emotions of occurring in consciousness more you're just less attached to whatever you're doing and by being less attached we kind of go back to the beginning of our conversation you're just sort of more in the flow more in the now and then you're just like more present and you just sort of embrace and engage in activities more fully yeah 100% I would say that this not being engaged in life so much any longer is a in between stage I do not know where I read this it's a pretty famous again a spiritual quote of before enlightenment the tree is just a tree during enlightenment the tree is not a tree any longer and after enlightenment the tree is a tree again right so therefore you basically live as nothing happened but with a complete other I don't want to use the term intellectualization maybe yeah some sort of internalization if you will becomes pretty much the same again in the end as if nothing truly changed for the lack of better words we use our old names again and I say hi Frank and you say hi Bobby and that's how we have to refer to each other even though we know that there is depth to it but in the end what should I do should I call you transcendence being Frank came down here pure consciousness man I need to use some terminology right so therefore becomes trigger mingling in Taiwan mingling mingling we're been calling everybody the girl that he pulled last week mingling what is mingling it's a name of a being it's a girl it's a label of a misu that he made a hole in yeah like yeah exactly that I would say like the word you said intellectualization I think the word that I use is recontextualization because it's not a matter of intellect it's a matter of it's kind of like a visceral feeling like you said it's the same but it's different you see a mountain before enlightenment you perceive it as being solid and during enlightenment you sort of in this in between stages it feels kind of weird at first you see the mountain as a solid you perceive that to be reality and then you see the mountain it's not a mountain and you're like oh everything is a dream but then if you think everything is a dream if you're still like making a duality or a distinction between reality and a dream then you're still kind of living in duality you know so like that's in between stages you're sort of going around and thinking I need to wake up from a dream this is a dream it's not real but then once you pass that threshold everything becomes neither real or unreal it's neither a dream or reality and you're neither dead or alive so you experience death but you come back to life but what are you dead or alive you had an ego death if your entire structure of yourself is the ego but now you saw through the ego are you dead or alive it's always like neither same with the whole enlightenment concept we talked about before it's at the same time everybody is enlightened from a certain perspective from one side of the from my side of the mountain looking through this one side everybody is enlightened because everyone has awareness if you're talking to me right now you're aware and like I said every corner, every point is equally awake but it's enlightenment that's getting enlightened not the person, the ego or the self was never alive because the ego is just a thought thoughts themselves aren't really alive because one thought can't really think another thought into existence just like the sensation on your forehead can really be or perceive the sensation on your knee if your knee is hurting and now you have each on your head those two sensations are distinct sensations it's awareness that's aware of them it's not like one sensation is aware of the other sensation so one thought is never aware of the next thought it's awareness that's being aware of those thoughts but that awareness is always just there and so it's like your whole entire existence is just like awareness being aware of itself thoughts are like you are aware of your thoughts but that's the same thing as saying that's just awareness being aware of itself and that's it, there's nothing more to it than that a lot of gurus tell you that you're enlightened because it's wakefulness that wakes up to itself and it's never been asleep in the first place because the same awareness is looking out through you're looking out through the same feel of awareness you are now when you were a baby so it's just there the awareness is the same the focus is different the awareness is always the same that's the same thing as saying the ego can never be enlightened or the ego can never be transcended because the ego is just like the chair but when you perceive the chair you perceive the self or the thought you give awareness to the object so in that moment the object is aware because there's only awareness what do you think about the pursuit of permanent ego death I don't think the ego is never alive so you can never be killed actually if you keep pursuing an ego death that's actually making the ego more alive because you're making it into a thing to me the ego doesn't exist until you make it to be imagine it to have some kind of impact imagine it to to be negative or imagine it to be alive the ego is just another thought all thoughts are just arising and passing the blowing of the wind outside or the barking of the dogs so you're trying to kill your ego or trying to stop your thoughts which a lot of people think it's the bedrock of spirituality it's almost like trying to stop the wind from blowing or trying to stop the earthquake it's just a natural course of things now part of the game impossible to erase just the character of the avatar I like to see it that way the character of the avatar playing here like in GTA basically so therefore why would I like to delete Franklin or Trevor in GTA 5 that's how I see it, doesn't make sense you can't might as well have fun with it and if you're trying to kill the ego it's just like there's there's just pixels there like I said, emptiness forms emptiness it's all just different manifestation of nothingness it's all the ego is completely empty and subsequently there's no point trying to capture or trying to delete something that was already deleted it wasn't even there I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I