 Ok, bonsoir tout le monde, pour ce nouveau installement de Science at 10. Aujourd'hui, on a Rachel qui va nous parler d'un topic très élevé, qui est en fait le feu dans l'Amazon, plus largement le feu dans la forestée humide. Et elle va présenter le cas de l'Amazon, où en fait, il y a une augmentation du feu, parce qu'il change la condition climatique, parce qu'il y a de l'activité humaine. Et je pense qu'elle va focusser sur le fait qu'il y a beaucoup de règles de management en place, mais ces règles de management ne sont pas vraiment informées de ce qui se passe au fil, et surtout avec la cultivation de la shift. Donc je vais vous dire, Rachel, c'est votre call maintenant, 10 minutes pour les points. Merci. Salut tout le monde, bonsoir tout le monde. Donc pour ceux de vous qui ne me connaissent pas, je suis Rachel Carmenter, je suis ici à Seafor comme postdoc dans le programme d'environnement. Le travail que je présente aujourd'hui c'est une partie de mon PhD, qui a été undertook à l'environnement centre de Lancaster. Et pendant que j'ai commencé le travail, c'était publié l'année dernière par ce point que je suis ici à Seafor. Donc c'est une bonne opportunité de présenter ce matin, puisqu'on a des visiteurs de Lancaster ici aujourd'hui. Mon PhD est focussé sur tenter d'understand la management de feu dans le Amazon en utilisant un range de scales géographiques et qu'il y avait sa propre méthodologie. Ce matin je vais parler du travail local, d'engager avec des méthodes de recherche ethnographiques et d'un travail participateur aussi. Donc je suis sûre que vous êtes aware qu'il y a un problème d'incréditation du feu dans le Amazon. Dès les années 80s et 90s, il y a été un nombre large des megafires dans le région, qui ont été faits dans des États-Unis, comme Acre et Parra. Au nord du Brésil, il y a plusieurs impacts de ces feuilles. Nous pouvons penser aux conséquences environnementales, aux implications de la biodiversité, aux émissions de gas de greenhouse, à l'économie environnementale. Il y a aussi les costs économiques associés aux feuilles. Par exemple, les closures aéroportes comme le résultat du feu et du feu et les impacts de la santé social avec les problèmes de respiration expérimente par les gens vivant dans le région. Et aussi, les difficultés, par exemple, dans les communautés rurales, en naviguant les rives devient problématique ou en hantant, parce que pas seulement par la lossue de la biodiversité, mais aussi par la difficulté de hantant, quand il y a beaucoup de débris sur les feuilles, par la flèche. Donc, les causes de ces feuilles sont largement anthropogéniques, des sources humains de l'ignition, par les grandes et les petits. Les feuilles sont sortes de la clé à l'église, par exemple, la clé à l'église pour mettre un château, par exemple, peut-être un grand égliseur, ou, en même temps, petits églises utilisent les feuilles pour égliser l'église pour leurs fieldes zwidhés. Mais pour petits églises, ils ont aussi besoin de feuilles, parce que c'est vraiment un élément important de leur agriculture de la subsistence via l'input de la nutrients qui, par exemple, église la production dans ces fields. Donc, les petits églises sont, en même temps, vraiment une partie de leur anti-fire, sortes de rhetoric, que vous trouverez dans les médias et aussi dans beaucoup de la littérature, parce que leurs pratiques agricultures sont percevées relativement en arrière, et ils sont vraiment sortes de ce campagne anti-fire, presque. Et donc, alors que les interventions et les prescriptions de la politique sont en place, ne sont pas seulement aimées aux petits églises, mais à tous les églises, vraiment, elles sortent de la ligne de feuilles, si vous voulez, quand vous pensez sur ces différentes prescriptions de politique. Donc, en même temps, ces solutions de management ne sont pas vraiment en train de travailler, parce que la feuille continue à augmenter à travers le Amazon. Et donc, c'est comme une pièce de travail qui a été faite, de vraiment essayer de comprendre ce qui s'est passé, pourquoi est-ce que ce gaffe entre politique et pratique? Et donc, c'est ce que nous essayons de faire avec cette pièce de travail. Et les méthodes qui m'involtaient c'est que j'allais prendre 6 mois dans le Amazon brésilien, dans le pays de Paris, assez près, relativement près de la ville de Santarang, along la rive d'Arapyuns. J'ai travaillé dans deux réserves extractives sur le côté de cette rive. Et cette travail, vraiment, comme je l'ai dit, c'est l'ethnographie de ça. Donc, j'ai vécu les églises avec les gens, et j'ai engagé des conversations sur les histoires et l'expérience de l'église. J'ai vu les pratiques que les gens ont utilisées dans les plots quand ils l'étaient églises. Et j'étais intéressée, aussi, de parler de leur awareness de toutes les règles qui existent, en regardant ces pratiques et leurs pratiques. Ça, c'était complimenté quand j'ai repris à l'UK avec un réveil d'une autre politique et d'interventions de management. Et les règles qui sont dictées par les petits holders et d'autres utilisateurs doivent s'adapter quand ils sont églises ou quand ils veulent avoir un réveil légal. Et ce qui est clair c'est qu'il y a une grande disparition entre ce qui se passe et ce qui est dicté comme les règles si vous voulez avoir un réveil légal. Donc, en pensant à ça, il a vu que il y avait peut-être trois différents thèmes de ces disparitions. Et le premier, si vous voulez, c'est que les prescriptions de la politique sont mises avec la réalité locale en termes de la capacité technique. Donc, l'un des requirements dans tous les documents de la politique c'est de construire un réveil légal en termes de deux à six mètres sur lesquels l'arrivée doit être élevée. C'est quelque chose que nous n'avons jamais observé. La raison pour laquelle c'est un réveil légal d'investissement pour construire votre réveil légal sur les six mètres sur le plot. Mais pas quand vous pensez que les petits holders utilisent largement les machetes, vous savez, pour l'agriculture, au moins, pour l'éclairage. Donc, vous pouvez aussi penser en termes de... de retourner au réveil légal, en fait. Donc, si nous pensons qu'il y a cette limitation de capacité technique, il y a aussi vraiment un genre de scepticism au niveau local sur le... le... le degré qui peut vraiment relâcher un réveil légal pour contacter votre réveil. Donc, les petits holders ont remarqué que si vous voulez utiliser un réveil légal, il aurait dû être peut-être, vous savez, trois ou quatre fois la taille de six mètres si vous voulez vraiment contacter. Parce que vous ne pouvez pas contrôler, par exemple, l'air qui s'occupe, qui peut ensuite prendre les embouts dans la forêt et qui peut commencer une confrégation, surtout, par exemple, si il y a un bamboo autour qui est très flammable. Mais ce que j'ai vu arriver c'était un genre de compromise parce que les gens ont tendu à réveiller leurs embouts et puis, si l'on s'occupe que le feu était en train de créer au-delà de l'air qui était tendu à être réveillé, ils allaient utiliser le machete pour réveiller un petit trail qui serait libre de débris et qui aiderait à combattre le feu et aidera à contrôler le feu. L'année que j'étais là n'était pas très douloureuse. Et même si je n'ai pas vu l'escape pendant l'année des petits Hamais qu'ils se sont appelés dans ces conditions il y a aussi un misalignement bureaucratique donc les documents de la politique demandent que les gens puissent prendre leur ténère leur nom et régister l'intention d'avoir un burn et qu'ils puissent recevoir un permit. Mais ces documents de la nom ne sont souvent en ownership au niveau local donc c'est problématique. Il y a aussi une série de rues qui sortent d'un compromis le requin local pour un bon burn donc au niveau local ce qui serait un bon burn c'est un bon fort feu qui aurait vraiment réveillé l'impact de tout le débris préparé pour les plantes et pour ça il faut faire faire faire faire faire faire faire faire faire faire faire faire faire faire faire faire faire faire faire faire faire faire faire faire faire faire faire faire faire faire faire faire faire faire faire faire faire faire faire qui est un investissement additionnel en termes de temps et de laboratoires. Donc, encore une fois, vous avez vu que il y avait un compromis sur le niveau local, même si les petits-hôdres n'étaient pas conscients qu'ils étaient en train de rencontrer certains de leurs requises, ce qu'ils ont tendu à faire dans leurs pratiques c'est de mettre un feu sur chaque côté de la plante, en créant des bas-burns qui permettent de contrôler le feu et aussi de se battre contre le vent, ce qui est l'un des requises. Donc, il y avait une sorte de somehow un compromis being made although a huge disparity between rules and practice. Il y avait aussi un série de rules qui seemed to be culturally inappropriate donc, par exemple, the requirement for small-holders to advise their community three days in advance of the location and the time where they would burn which is something again it didn't happen, partly because I would say that the rhythm of life in the small-holder context just is not that formalised and whilst at the same time small-holders were very aware of where their neighbours had got to in their agricultural cycle because that's a large part of conversation there wasn't really a formal setup for announcing when you would burn partly also because of the predictability of weather conditions which is so central in burning practices. So then, thinking about these lines of disparity we wanted to explore a bit more the foundations of that gap and if you really were to simplify you could say that there seems to be a good fire, bad fire, kind of dichotomy whereby, you know, at the policy level and in the media an international discourse there's a lot of anti-fire mega fires and the environmental implications of these fires and there's some kind of alarm and that the situation needs to be controlled and that's very highly contrasted at the local level where really people think and talk about fire in a very different way there's a kind of an ease in which fire is used and it's so central to agriculture and not only agriculture but daily practices of cooking on, you know, natural fires keeping the community clean and safe from the leaves and insects et cetera so there's a real kind of juxtaposition between those perceptions of fire and perhaps at the policy level not an understanding of the other reality and experience of fire so to conclude we tried to think of these findings and suggest some policy recommendations for future management interventions which might be more successful and the three suggestions that we developed were there's clearly a need for more participatory and local level engagement when designing these management interventions to get an idea of small holder capacity and the local reality and also to increase the legitimacy of the intervention and then there's a need perhaps for a more flexible and adaptive management approach whereby for example some interventions might be required in extreme drought years but perhaps not necessary for every year you know perhaps a different suite of management techniques would be appropriate in non drought years and finally for these sorts of management interventions particularly for example the fire break there has to be some kind of form of external support because the technical capacity at the local level is limited and so that is a brief and hopefully succinct summary of that research which you can find actually in human ecology it was published last year, thank you ok now the floor is yours for your question people use fire because they cannot do fire break fundamentally so they don't want to spend their time macheting all the trees so that's why they fire if you ask them to do the same thing outside to just control the fire but I'm just coming from Zambia and then I've seen some image of village where you have something like 1.2 people per kilometer square and on the landscape image 28% of the image is fire scar is there a link in your research in terms of the density and the capacity or the willingness to control the fire so that if there is only the bush behind your field you burn and that's the bush burning if it's your neighbor just behind your field will you control your fire better crops but also there was a kind of and so people tended to try to protect the crops and the houses but at the same time it was never very clear if there was an escape fire people tended to be kind of thrown around and it was never it was always someone from a different from your own so it was quite interesting to to talk about those sorts of you know rationales for investing actually in the firebreak another thing that people wanted to to protect was NTFP so if for example there's a brazil nut tree or some other you know valuable source of non timber products people tended to increase their their management but never to the point of actually making you know an enormous firebreak no thank you I thought that was you know a wonderfully argued a wonderfully well made argument about some of the issues one of the things I'd like to say is first of all the fact that there were it seemed to me that in many places fire is just completely forbidden the fact that there were already all kinds of guidelines how to use fire better already is a step up from the usual kinds of policies which I think are just completely unrealistic that just forbidden totally and therefore you know just absolutely don't work otherwise I just like to ask you as you know we've been working a lot on migration and you're one of the people working on migration and I know that in the western Amazon a few of the people we've been working with have shown that the more people who go into the city the actual the more fire there is the more escaped fires there are the fewer people are out there in the countryside sort of the more fire could you and urbanization and migration seems to be a continuing issue here so could you comment on that and I'd like to make one other comment before I sort of give up on this so that was one of my question another question is one of the problems that we really saw in the western Amazon was the fact that there was a real mix of uses so there were people managing pastures using fire and there were there was also a mix of uses and a mix of types of ownership and management so there were absentee landlords there were people who were doing pastures rather than agricultural fields per say and then there were the shifting cultivators and each of them had sort of different issues involved and we found that it was partly that mix that also led to to the problems with fire could you also comment on that well taking that point first where we were working in those extractive reserves there's really that you know the land use is more or less swidden there is not cattle or you know I know in other reserves like in Acre and Chicamendas now there's more cattle there but in these reserves it's really just shifting cultivation so I didn't really observe those sorts of dynamics that you're mentioning although Miguel was talking to me yesterday about the need to kind of have someone back in the field because of so many people having plots but actually living in the towns we didn't really observe that in this research site and related to your first question which was could you briefly remind me migrating fewer people fewer people more problematic fires I suppose I do remember going to some plots which were not abandoned but the owners had moved to Santarang and they hadn't been back for some months and people the people who I was walking past with were kind of saying that point that land will have to be returned to the community and someone else can have ownership of there because it's not managed and the fact that it's not managed means it's slightly more susceptible I guess to not being for somebody not bothering to take certain precautions if burning close by but I mean again there was really quite limited I suppose migration from those communities to Santarang so it's not something that's all happening a lot Hi Rachel, thanks a lot that was really interesting and I saw really very similar things happening in Indonesia my question is what are the dis-incentives to not burn if any and who would give those dis-incentives if any, thanks to not burn at all you mean or to are there or not burning is it's sort of expected it's part of the agriculture everybody can burn now when I was working the reserve councils were trying to limit the area that people would be burning so to limit the number of plots that people could have but that was more to do with the land in production than anything related to a limitation on fire use really Hi, you said at the start that you're interested in finding out about smallholder awareness of policy recommendations but you didn't actually go on to anything about that during the talk I wonder if you did find their views on the policy recommendations and kind of linked to that whether they had their own recommendations which you kind of alluded to in the last bit I did because we held some different people to understand more and talk more at length about fire specifically and something that was really interesting was the fact that people often had ideas about what the policy prescriptions were but that weren't true so almost kind of like myths not you know like a kind of a story that builds up over time and so people for example would say that one of the requirements was you had to burn in December because December is already the rains are coming and the fact that such a stupid thing would exist is because all of these rules are written in the towns and the cities where they have no idea what's going on here on the ground and people would say that they were forgotten from the whole kind of bureaucratic and policy process so you know I did ask people their knowledge of the different requirements and often the knowledge was extremely limited or just completely you know off the ball like for example this Thank you very much for the really interesting presentation I just had a quick question so it seems like from the discussion I get a sense that you know small holder burning is actually quite in limited land but then the discourses of where forest fire seems to be like much more large scale so is it like certain types of burning that's being condoned or burning like in general that's I mean sort of condemned Well the antifire sort of discourse I would say is yeah related to these wildfires that spread and definitely implicated in that discourse are the small holders that's their burns are relatively small but there are many of them but I think it's mostly also linked to the fact that the agriculture isn't really respected you know it's regarded as a kind of a backwards type of a practice that needs modernizing and improving and so that pulls them in then to the target of these kind of antifire campaigns and discourses Campaign and program on slash and mulch in contrast with slash and burn in the state of Para how did they get any attention or competition with slash and burn I know of a couple of different slash and mulch initiatives and so far as I understand they've had quite limited success partly because of difficulties you know of trying to access these riverine largely riverine communities and delivering machinery required for the mulching procedure but it is something that's still sort of on the horizon as a potential alternative to slash and burn with Sweden there is a need for the policies to take to adopt more flexible and to understand more the flexibility and how management systems can adapt but I think that's what academics they are calling for this for policies to acknowledge the fact that they need to recognize the fact that there's a need for more flexibility and adaptation and that's the same when you think on land use, fires forest management but how do you see what are the main obstacles for this to happen because anyway the main policies are going against these perspectives and is that some scope for reconciling these policies, these courses and perspectives so can I just I was finding it difficult to hear the last part of what you said what sorts of venues could be used to create these kinds of adaptive, flexible well I suppose really there needs to be more forums for exchange at least an exchange of understandings I would say would be a starting point of that from how I understand there's really a complete disjunct between where the policy is formulated and where it's supposed to be having this uptake so some of the more successful management interventions were at a lower level involving NGOs and a few state representatives and community councils and different entities working in the region and that there was a management intervention program designed via that kind of stakeholder engagement which seemed to be the most realistic and engaging and actually therefore have the largest kind of uptake in the area thank you there seems to be a lot of enthusiasm or at least I get a lot of emails about biochar and mostly coming from from NGOs or whatever working in Amazonia or people interested in the issue or in this technique and that's after all largely at least from their point of view I think mostly based on the sophistication of indigenous burning practices in Amazonia and sort of using slash and burn or shifting cultivation techniques is this at all sort of redeeming the view of shifting cultivation in Amazonia or in other areas what do you think is the future here well I don't think actually that I could my view of that I would say would have to get back to you because that's something I don't know quite so much about to be quite honest ok any other last burning question we have 3 minutes left no then we need to thank again Pablo? no no you are moving no so we need to thank again Rachel for the very nice presentation and I guess this has been published as a paper in human ecology so everybody can have an autograph part of the paper if they want thank you again and see you for the next science at 10