 Joshua Cooper and welcome to Cooper Union, what's happening with human rights around our world on Think Tech Live, broadcasting from our downtown studio in Honolulu, Hawaii in Moana, New York. Today we're looking at the beauty of belonging in nation building, universal declaration of human rights, 15th right to nationality on Indigenous People's Day. And we're very excited to be joined by Richelle. Richelle, can you share with us what it was like to commemorate Indigenous People's Day in San Francisco and Alcatraz Island? Absolutely, thank you so much, Joshua. I'm really happy to be here. Buju Anin, everyone. Just to introduce myself quickly, Rochelle Diver with International Indian Treaty Council. I'm an Anishinaabe woman from Fond du Lac Band of Lake Superior, Ojibwe in Northern Minnesota. International Indian Treaty Council has been going out to Alcatraz for sunrise gatherings. Our earliest flyer is 1979, we've been commemorating. The 69 to 71 occupation of Indians of all tribes that took boats out in the middle of the night to Alcatraz Islands and reversed what was called eminent domain, right? And the doctrine of discovery, we turned that right around on them. And so what was harnessed at that time was the Fort Laramie Treaty. And they went back to this treaty that said that unused land would be returned to the Indians as they called us back then. That was the nicest thing they called us back then. And so since then, we've been commemorating those brave aunties and uncles and some of them who have entered the spirit world now that we know are still with us. We make sure we're out there. Indigenous People's Day, reminding people that it's time to really get rid of Columbus Day. And we tell the true history of the first contact. This year, we were lucky to have our Taíno brother, Roberto Barrero from the island of Bordecai, what is now known as Puerto Rico, to also share some of that history with us. So it's just the truth in history is really the most important part of it. And if you'll excuse me, there's some noise behind me and I'm here at Yoruba Buena Gardens in San Francisco. We go from Alcatraz and come right here, partner with the city of San Francisco to celebrate Indigenous People's Day here at Yoruba Buena Gardens. So it's quite a day, but we stay energized and we know, as I said, all those that came before us are standing with us. Thank you so much. And it's so important because Article 15 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights says, everyone has a right to a nationality and no one shall be arbitrary, deprived of one's nationality nor the right to change one's nationality. And that's what's so important is that you, as an Indigenous woman, are able to claim and make sure and frame your rights to self-determination and to make sure that no one else defines who you are and what your beliefs are. So we know the Universal Declaration is so important. We also know the UN Declaration of Rights of Indigenous Peoples adds to the important work of the UDHRs where it commemorates its 75th anniversary. Could you share with us a bit how you first got involved in Indigenous rights and why this issue is so important in international human rights law? Absolutely. Actually, it's a very interesting story. I'm so glad you asked this question because I was introduced to human rights defenders and frontline human rights advocates at the time before people were using those terms. And that first person was my mother. We grew up outside of the reservation in a smaller city called Duluth, Minnesota. It was not very progressive at that time. It's an old mining city, lots of old mining money and really built on the backs of the native people there, the Anishinaabe and the Dakota and really did a lot of extractive industry projects. There are a lot of coal-fired power plants and things like that. So we've been dealing with a lot of direct, a lot of impacts of colonization that were still impacting us today. But my mom was really an advocate for women, which at that time was also still quite controversial, women's reproductive health care, the women's self-determination to determine what's best for their own bodies. And she was a fierce women's advocate, a fierce human rights defender. And I was just there with her while she went to school, while she worked hard. And then I continued on my path. I went to school. I took my first human rights class and I read a book about Rigoberta Menchu and other Nobel Peace Prize winners like Ely Wiesel. But Rigoberta really, really resonated with me and I started to plunge into this world of human rights. Well, I started to take every human rights course that I could and really do my best to see how I could contribute positively. And it took a few years to realize actually, I've been surrounded by human rights my whole life. I didn't have to wait for a book to tell me about it. So with that story being said, I was so lucky to come across the International Indian Treaty Council while looking at international organizations of indigenous peoples that were fighting at that level. International Indian Treaty Council was one that always came back. And when I looked at their board of directors and honorary, one of their board members and longtime sister in freedom fighter was Rigoberta Menchu. So I wanted to share that story about Rigoberta but also of my mom. She was really the original human rights defender in my life, Karen Diver. And I really did follow in her footsteps even though I thought I was blazing my own path. That's a great one and really important. It also brings up the exciting part of really the Nobel Peace Prize that was just awarded as well. This year, awarded to a woman who's still in prison in Iran standing up for the right things. And of course, you sharing about Rigoberta Menchu who really was, like you said, a trailblazer, a transformative indigenous rights activist creating the first UN working group on indigenous populations and being very active. And at that time, of course, when you went to the UN it would be very lucky if you could return home and not face severe challenges let alone even killings. And so really exciting to see you raise the women's rights issue. Unfortunately, we still are looking at bodily autonomy as well as self-determination for women and indigenous peoples around the world. And the Universal Declaration of Human Rights inspires individuals and peoples around the planet to strive for that self-determination. And the right to nationality is essential for equality and equity for all on Earth. And Article 15 does guarantee everyone that right to a nationality. When we look at the UDHR also assigns opportunities for a new way forward for our world. And UDHR 15 serves as a valuable vision for indigenous peoples and continues to shape participation in global politics speaker for our own people as an integral part of the human family as equals. Can you share with us a bit? You talked about the International Indian Treaty Council, can you talk to us about a couple of indigenous movements that you see that are really inspiring, that are actualizing Article 15 in today's world? I also just wanna say this is a very timely interview as I sit here in San Francisco where the UN Charter was signed. So that's a very exciting as well. But as we talk about what nationhood means you touched on it a little bit and you'll hear a lot of indigenous peoples when they introduced themselves that I am Anishinaabe living in what is now known as the United States, what is now known as Canada. Our nationhood is very important to us. We're seeing these discussions take place right now about enhanced participation at the United Nations. It's really important that we're able to have the self-determination to go there as nations, as our traditional governments and not as NGOs. And that's where it's been so far. So we're taking that pride of our nations and we're bringing that idea into the international arena. Many, many of our aunties and uncles and brothers and sisters have been fighting for this for years. And it seems it's finally coming to fruition a bit. We're gaining some more, we're making some gains and moving forward. So just, I mean, so they call us tri-citizens, some of us, right? So we're citizens of the city we live in, of the state or country and then we're citizens of our nation. And so it's an inherent part of who we are. And we actually have that self-determination to move forward with our own citizenship, what that looks like, my nation of Fond du Lac. We have our own, of course, elected government like many of the 574 federally recognized tribes or over 800 all together that are here in the United States today. But not all of them are recognized. So we throw this word around sovereignty, but are we sovereign when the country that colonized us still has plenary power over us? And every time we're going through a presidential election, we're unsure if that president or the upcoming House or Senate is gonna decide to wipe our rights away with just the stroke of a pen, because that's how easy it is. So yes, we're a member of those citizens of our nation. Yes, right now, we have the autonomy and the self-determination to move forward as nations in our own government, but we are very, very vulnerable to the politics of the United States. So I could say a lot more, but I'll leave it there. No, no, it touched upon a lot. First and foremost, being in San Francisco, there's so much history there. First, 26 April to 26 June, that meeting of the 50 governments at the time to say what will be the rule of law for the rest of the world, trying to recognize the Holocaust that just took place, but to have that spirit of never again. And what was significant, of course, as you did share, was human rights are mentioned for the first time in international law, really, and also self-determination, recognizing at the time that only 50 countries, and now there's 193, we have seen a move in the right direction for decolonization, but it's pointed out so much more of what we have to do. There used to be the unrepresentations of people's organization, and some countries did transition from that membership as a shadow United Nations into the UN, but you did bring up a good point. There's still too much colonization in our world. We still have people talking about Columbus, talking about Captain Cook, which then leads to Captain Kirk and everything else in the world, but we really pointed out the invincibility of indigenous peoples as the world tried to make them invisible throughout those five centuries. As we gather today, you also remind me, one of the first times we met was at the University of New South was Diplomacy Training Program, and Australia is also having a vote with the voice. I don't know if you've kept up with that and how you see that as an active call for Article 15 for indigenous peoples and aboriginals and Torres Strait Islanders of Australia. Honestly, it's just really exciting to see that movement building there. I'm not gonna comment either way on the way that, you know, about feelings about it. I'm not from there. I was a guest on those lands. Really honored to be able to study and learn from the oldest documented indigenous peoples in the world. So that said, here we are 2023. It took this long to even start having those conversations down there, let alone to get back to what's really important and what's really gonna matter, and that's land back. And I really hope that that can happen through them, whether it's through the voice or in other means. And another thing that really struck me when you were just speaking is also about the acknowledgement of our collective rights. And that is also extremely unique. And we saw a lot of really what that can look like when COVID struck, how our nations dealt with it. First and foremost, it's about all of our people, the collective, our elders. So we didn't take an individualistic take on how to deal with the crisis. And although our nations were hit quite hard, that collective nature and honor of our people and our future generations really was a huge part of why we came out of that. Of course, like everybody else did, but stronger than ever as nation. Really excellent point because the world, of course, of human rights does look at individual, but it's also been collective the entire time. When you look at the right of self-determination that's in the UN Charter, it's all peoples have the right of self-determination. And it's common article one of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the International Covenant on Economic, Social, and Cultural Rights. And we know the United States is going to be brought forward to the UN Human Rights Committee to look at the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. Are there any issues that you think should be at the forefront of that review of the United States that is coming up at the Human Rights Committee later this month? Well, Joshua, I'm so glad that you asked that. We went through the official report of the United States that was submitted ahead of time to the committee. We were very alarmed to see that the United States does not think that people have the right to clean water. So that is definitely something that is meant to be addressed. I actually was at the World Water Week a few weeks ago in Stockholm, Sweden. And I was able just coincidentally to stand next to a woman from the U.S. State Department that works in the runs the water sector for the U.S. government. And I asked her about this and she said, no, that's right. You don't have a right to clean water. People have a right to sanitize or safe water, but that's it. I said, well, how do you define safe? As I work a lot in environmental toxics and I understand how those impact people, her definition of clean and safe is not my definition of clean and safe. And the first question I asked her said, well, what about fluoride? Do you think that that's safe for human consumption? And she said, well, it's really good for your teeth. I said exactly, but it is a neurotoxin and it does not belong in your body. And we also have had that water in a cup or you take a shower somewhere in a different place and it smells like chlorine, like bleach. This is not healthy for us. It's not safe. So if this is the standard that the United States is putting forth, we're in big trouble. And that's just one of the things on this report. But I will say that we have a very strong team of indigenous peoples representing all seven socioeconomic regions that are gonna be there on site. Because also this is a review of the United States, but their actions, their decisions and their policies impact indigenous peoples and all peoples around the world. So it's important that everybody has their say. Really bringing up a lot of good points. First and foremost, I remember being at the UN for the Sustainable Development Goals in those final negotiations partnering with indigenous peoples major group. And it was true. The United States tried to weaken SDG number six for clean water and sanitation. And if it wasn't for Palau and the indigenous peoples coming together, we know that would not even have come to fruition to be able to have SDG six on clean water and sanitation. But you also brought up a good point about the ICCPR and that important review of the 18 experts is also that concept of extraterritoriality. And that's where US corporations and US foreign policy does impact indigenous peoples. And maybe that might be one of the super strengths of the International Indian Treaty Council, not only being the first indigenous movement to get Ecosoc status, but also really uniting indigenous peoples from many regions where the US operates that then has a huge impact on the future generations and wellbeing of indigenous peoples around the world. That's so true. And IITC is really unique that way in the, I mean, these were grassroots people. IITC was founded in Sandy Grapp, South Dakota in 1974 with over 99 indigenous nations present from North Central South America, the Caribbean and the Pacific. They came together alongside the American Indian movement, which was really taking up arms against the government and finally fighting back for the first time. So this is the premise under what they met or kind of the feeling in the air that everyone had. Everyone was a victim of colonization that was there and they talked about what can we do? And they talked about what it meant to be colonized, to be indigenous. And I mean, this is a word that wasn't even being used. What it meant to be native at that time and what level can they take it to to be realized because the governments that colonized us were never gonna do that. And so that is the premise in which in 1977, they went into UN Geneva, a delegation of American Indian and Alaskan natives, of course, and demanded to be heard as such, as sovereigns and not as subsidiaries of the governments that colonized them. That's absolutely huge. And treaty council has been committed to stay within the UN space since then. And as you said, it was upgraded to general consultative status in 2011, really showing not only the impact that indigenous peoples have had that were credentialed through IATC or partners of IATC, but really the broad reach. And so it's just also important to say that treaty council is a movement from the ground up. Every two years we have treaty conferences in the communities of our affiliates or our board members, and that's who feeds IATC, the work of their next two years. What is happening in their community? What kind of threats are they facing? Is it mining a new pipeline? Are there human rights defenders under threat there? Are they having water issues? No access to water, no clean water, a variety of things, but we hear from them and those are the issues that are taken to the United Nations and nobody speaks for them. Treaty council provides the access to these, to the UN arena and many different for us so indigenous peoples can speak for themselves in front of the world. And I think that's huge and important too to all of our people and our movements. It really brings back exciting memories as well. I remember being in South Dakota and marching with all the founders who were actually involved in the beginning being there with Russell and Dennis and marching across the borders there, of course, of North and South Dakota, but then also even hosted with the nation of Hawaii with Bumpy over on Oahu on the windward side and being able to be together there as well. And also that reminds me, you're really a pioneer in the space focusing on the three treaties that people don't maybe get that involved with that really look at the wellbeing of the individual but also the collective and also our Mother Earth. Can you share with us a bit the work you do and those three treaty bodies and why it's so important and the human rights approach that you've taken to it? Absolutely and I appreciate this opportunity as well because we see a lot of indigenous peoples at some UN mechanisms and we see very few in others. And we're gonna talk right now about the Stockholm Basel and Rotterdam conventions and actually also the Minamata Convention on Mercury. These four conventions work in synergy under UN environment program and one of them, the Rotterdam Convention is housed in FAO. So they actually share a secretariat or the secretariat's work in tandem and they're really trying to merge the chemical and heavy metal sector to sink it more and provide more access. So we're talking about pesticides, we're talking about extractive industry chemicals and pops, persistent organic pollutants. In the past maybe five years or so, maybe not even, you started to hear about PFAS, PFOA, but these were not common terms before that and they have been being discussed at the Stockholm Convention for many years. So we're trying to find a way to mainstream what's happening at these conventions that truly impact everybody and how we can increase indigenous voices not only because these mechanisms are lacking a human rights approach period. I have actually heard inside the negotiations of the Minamata Convention, this is not about human rights, nor is this about health. This is about the environment. Indigenous peoples and most humans know that all of that is interconnected and we cannot separate them. So I'm gonna now highlight the Minamata Convention on Mercury because the COP 5 Conference of the Parties 5 is about to take place from October 30th to November 4th in Geneva. And Treaty Council was at the forefront of bringing in voices on indigenous rights but also being just relentless on pushing a human rights framework to be used within this treaty body. It was difficult. It's important to note that the states are in there and all the multinational corporations are there. We've got Monsanto and Bayer sitting there with state representatives. These are very unique mechanisms and it makes our job even harder as indigenous peoples and our allies in civil society to really have our voices heard. They definitely don't wanna be talking about human rights. So that is even why it's more important that we need to prioritize being there and make sure that we're bringing a lot of different voices into those spaces so that we can finally be heard. The Minamata Convention ended up reaching out to International Indian Treaty Council because the secretariat and some states had recognized the lack of indigenous participation while acknowledging the disproportionate impact mercury has on indigenous peoples' lands and territories. So we're partnering with them now. We're gonna do our webinar beforehand to train indigenous delegates. We have a ton of events on site. We're gonna be doing some media pushes. So I encourage anyone that's interested in either of these conventions to, or all four of them, Minamata Convention, Stockholm Basel in Rotterdam. Visit IITC.org. I'll share my contact information. I'm happy to engage with people individually, answer your questions. But yeah, keep an eye out for all of us at the end of October and we really hope to increase more participation and bring all of you lovely folks in to have your voices heard as well. It really is an honor to talk with you about those three, four treaties because very few people are involved, yet it goes to the core of our health. We all know that we've been involved with the Center for International Environmental Law and all the other movements for the right to a clean, healthy and sustainable environment, getting that adopted first in Geneva at the Human Rights Council and then later at the UN General Assembly just last year. So all of these rights are indivisible, interconnected and we know that it's all one. Unfortunately, the rest of the world hasn't and that's one of the reasons that you shared about getting indigenous peoples to seat at the UN, not as NGOs, but as indigenous peoples because we understand and we can start to see a shift. Remember when we first started doing some of this work, it would be more tokenistic of do a chant at the beginning, maybe start a march, but then other people move in. But now we see at the climate change marches that we do in New York City. Now we see at the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change, which we've run into each other and been able to partner at over the past decade that now people are recognizing and beginning to respect indigenous peoples' ancestral knowledge and how much we need that wisdom to be able to actually protect our world from irreparable harm. If we look at the climate crisis, that's the next meeting that'll be coming up and we just know we have less than six years until we hit a point where it'd be Koyana, Scotia are entirely out of balance. No, absolutely. And, you know, I think everyone's got a lot of anxiety about the upcoming top 28. We're seeing a lot of really negative media coming out about the big hand that oil companies are playing in these discussions in Dubai. I also want to call people's attention to the new plastics treaty that's being negotiated right now. All of this works hand in hand and talking about these credit systems and the new global biodiversity framework as well. Now they're talking about biodiversity credits. People have their own opinions on that but we are not seeing a reduction in carbon footprints and we're not seeing the results that were promised at COP 21. That was a hard fight for many of us two weeks sleeping in there and, you know, at a makeshift conference center at an airport fighting, fighting, fighting, fighting and listening to them say, oh no, three degrees, four degrees. It was very just heartening. And here we are now, COP 28, posted by oil Mongols. You know, are we moving in the right direction and is it possible anymore? I think a lot of us and especially we know our youth are really feeling that anxiety about their futures. I definitely remember working to guarantee a strive for 1.5 so people can just be alive in Oceania, the people of Tuvalu and Kiribati. I remember you fighting cup by cup for a little fun to be able to survive for that right to food and to go. And we really do appreciate your scrappy never quit perspective in international human rights law but also never forgetting where you're from and continuing to organize on the ground for your nation, building that nation and also for a global civil society that is rooted in international human rights law and the rule of law for all people. Could you briefly provide a small vision for the future of these rights? That's always the hardest question for me, right? We go from one place to another and we really focus so much on where we are and we focus so much on what we don't want, what we don't want to happen in the future but we're gonna turn that around and we're gonna talk about what that looks like in a positive way. And that really involves a meaningful seat at the table to discuss, to have a vote when our rights are on the table and really be acknowledged nation to nation as it should be. I could have a laundry list of things but I'm just gonna leave it at number two, which is when we see our rights fully realized that's gonna look like land back for our displaced peoples so they can go back to their traditional ways, they can go back to living subsistence lifestyles, they can go back to their traditional foods. So that's really, I think, what everybody's hoping for, respect, acknowledgement and for the states to uphold our rights as enshrined in the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and that we see allyship come from non-indigenous peoples that understand that when we say land back, we're not trying to take anything from anyone. We really want everyone to stand with us and make sure that we all have a piece of the pie and that our indigenous peoples that were removed can once again return and honor their ancestors in that way and set up life for their future generation. Mahalo, thank you so much. You really embody the beauty of belonging and nation-building and creating a world that is building back better but with a bold vision of what matters most and that's people. Mahalo, thank you again. Aloha.