 post it so I'm recording now so first one I wanted to bring up so this should be a short meeting actually so I'll share my screen and if I share it I should not show confidential stuff but yeah maybe I won't share it but like so sorry I should have linked to this so do 20 there aren't any confidential due 20 second issues if that helps okay that that's helpful thank you it does help thanks so I'm just gonna find the confidential the due 20 second issues and for what is this milestone 11 point one point two right yeah oh no sorry one point two how come I'm not getting any do 23 we're like two years into this like we're not one year into this like staggered thing and then I'm still you're you're already put it thank you Sean so so we finished these two which is great so this one was closed this one was was not and then okay let me yeah so that that one's done so this is great any comments on these two Sean or just you expected them to be done no no just yeah what you said okay great and then what was it gonna show the open ones so some of these are done but waiting for review so I'm pretty happy about that and we can talk about like yeah I'm not super concerned about that so what I've been saying to people is like you know obviously it's not there's no consequence for missing this and because of the summit late you know most of these are in review but and don't have right I haven't had final review yet so one I would want to call out is that first one which Jackal was looking at but is not in a review because we don't know what the issue is yet so that one is like a complete mess the next one the usage thing is basically done it's just waiting to emerge the one after that just turned out to be more complicated than we thought so that has had an impact on yam the fortunate part there is that yam is not going to the summit so like it's not right it'll still make it into 11.3 I would say but it might have an impact on yam's other issues the sourcing one apparently needed some back-end work so I'm not quite sure what's oh no sorry that's this that's the other sourcing one this one right yeah yeah yeah sorry that one's in review is this one started yeah it's in review oh yeah I right I met with them yesterday yeah they said that it's it's also in review so yeah I had a comment we can talk about next on that but it seems like everything I think this one was not started right as far as I'm aware like I think Constance just started that but I don't know yeah the the other Jira one Felipe had a look and commented on the issue right it's actually a bug like so he tried to make it clearer to people but we're just waiting for a response from people so right we'll probably you know unless if they say that makes sense then that's solved and we don't need to exactly so yeah no I wanted to do is go over these really quickly and comment that I think it was by and large I don't know what success criteria where we're measuring but I think it was an improvement in that at least people pick these up so I mean that seems very trivial like oh like please work on these things but you know with like the amount of stuff that we work at your lab I think this was a success from that perspective people pick these up they pretty much finished them and then I have different topics to talk about like we're not actually finished finished but at least they're not like so like this one is a problem for for a different reason regarding that I already talked to Andre about so maybe Sean I could talk to you about here really quickly which is the dedicated engineer thing and so on the front-end team dedicated doesn't really super mean dedicated right now and I don't agree with that so I brought that up with Andre and he says he he sympathizes pretty much agrees I mean as he said the follow-up is that he'll talk with Tim further and then we'll revisit like the discussion when everybody returns from the summit but to me the the problem that this surfaced for me is that Constance had been assigned this one specifically but then he didn't get to it until like maybe late last week if at all because he was presumably working on other things so to me that defeats the purpose of dedicated so I wanted to get your thoughts do you agree with that and is that also what on your team right now is is it pretty much dedicated or is it there's some like give there on my team because it's plan now everybody's dedicated okay so it's a non-issue mark move to create right so the dedicated people for great like on a different team now so okay yeah no I just wanted to I mean I'll repeat what I told Andre to you Sean which I think is is relevant but when I at least when I go through this I'm not obsessed with things not being done undue 22nd I'm obsessed with like people not starting on them and then that they were that they were working other things and then so to me that defeats the purpose of planning so because if we plan these things I know at least you Sean and Andre do a really you know difficult job or are trying to plan specifically that you have this much time and then that you work on these things if you're already accounting for it I guess in this case is what Andre accounted for that they're actually working on other things then that sucks for me because then I don't know about that and then that sets a false expectation for me right so but if the expectation is that you know an engineer they're dedicated to plan they have these two weeks up to do 22nd that they're just gonna work on it and that's really then it's clear to me then I can if they're on vacation that's also clear to me because I can see a group on and so on and so forth so that that's what I wanted to communicate and then 100 degrees so let me so so does that all make sense Sean do you disagree with any of that statement no so the two things I would say about the G 22nd things for my team are Jan's one which I mentioned which just turned out to be more right work so that's useful information but they you know not particularly right an issue with this system that's just like a regular retro thing like how do we do better estimating things and so forth yes the other one was yeah cause one that she hasn't really made any progress on I think she had three to 22nd which I think is probably too many right but we can you know we can discuss that next time we do it but I think that was part of the reason so she was making sure that she got the other ones done because I think they were higher on the board but because she had three like other people only had one or two it makes it hard to make sure that they're all in in time right apart from that yeah I'm pretty happy with it so far and then I will sorry I was going to go ahead Sean so the other thing is the batch commenting from what I understand under he hasn't had a huge amount of time to work on that so that might well miss 11.3 as well right well I mean I I mean that's I didn't put a due 22nd on it it's well but it was also like impossible I would presume to be done in 22nd so this system doesn't really capture that well because it's saying what to do and not to do things in a certain order so but yeah I I don't see any action on that issue either so I you know anticipate that we will hear from something when they get back and even Mario I didn't see anything de-added. No I was talking to Mario about it so basically he's pushed the changes that he's made but he's he was mostly focused on the JIRA thing because that was due 22nd. Exactly, exactly. Yeah so I'm talking Andrews like you know just blocked by other things. Okay that yeah that to me that's fair because we didn't prioritize that so I was trying to type yours so I'm thinking we could just document this for now maybe on the retro issue is that a good idea yeah and we'll figure something out in the future if we I don't want to create another spreadsheet for the sake of creating spreadsheets because they're really annoying. Yeah. Okay so I'll probably do that at some point or wait till you I think you've already created it right? No I've not created the retro issue for 11.3 but I know so the reason I don't create them until after the freeze is because we don't know which things didn't make it okay freeze but yeah that's fine yeah like I don't think this is super urban like the history is there so I'll just manually put those up once you do it. So I moved around the order and the other item because we already just talked about number four review process. Oh no we didn't talk about this so I wanted to talk about this again I don't I think this discussion is way beyond plan but I wanted to bring up with you Sean at least since you're here. So the example here I said is that one of the issues at least one of the issues was already assigned to somebody to review I think James but presumably he's in summit mode or doing other things or doesn't even know about the 322nd thing so what are your thoughts on that like is that something that we don't address now is that something we can iterate on a change because I personally can't think of anything to solve this problem right now because we by definition we throw MRs to non-plan engineers to review and that to me seems really crazy from a management perspective but I totally appreciate it from like a good lab wants to share co-knowledge with everybody perspective and that that's always been the process is my understanding. Yeah I don't I don't particularly see it as a problem unless it's gonna lead to somebody missing a deadline but I think that's a sort of cross-team problem rather than individual teams problem so yeah from my perspective I don't have a huge amount of concerns about that. Okay so so in this particular case we tried to finish the 222nd and the MR was already ready for review like Friday and then and it was assigned to James and so do you expect the developers to ping them more or do you say like oh this was just summit month so don't worry about it because James probably would have seen it by today and then that's like giving them giving him three days to review it is more than enough type of thing. Yeah I mean in general you know people own their own merge request and making sure it gets reviewed okay we've talked a few times about in the main retrospective and in our retrospective actually about you know making sure that we follow up yeah we we make sure that happens but it's it's the person who's writing the MR's responsibility to make sure that happens so yeah. Okay so so maybe if like yeah to me this is a confluence of things especially the 222nd but my sense is the team members are they won't bug the reviewer that much is that is that the case and then maybe they'll give them like even a whole week if they're they're not or is that not supposed to be the case. Yeah I mean it's good it doesn't matter how much it matters like if it's if it's not affecting a deadline like you know the whole point of people having different things to work on is that. Well no this one affected the deadline right that that's my point this is or maybe you're saying like this 222nd is not a deadline. Right it's not like you know if it misses 222nd nothing happens right like if you've got MR in review for 222nd you can still work on other stuff. Yes but are you saying because this is summit monthly are you saying because this is the first time this is we're still in experimental mode are you saying that this is your understanding of 222nd. Okay so like maybe we were we had misaligned expectations of 222nd so maybe we need to correct that first I think is the problem. No so my expectation is that next month more things will be merged on the 22nd for our 222nd but in general like I see the point of the 222nd label to give us better information about what's going to ship in the second half of the month not to like worry about whether someone's reviewed this in the last couple of days or not because that's you know what do you go ahead I don't want to use it like because I think people already feel too much time pressure around the existing freeze we have I don't want to create a second one where we have more time but you know where we had that time pressure I want to reduce the time pressure from the freeze by doing this like you know the purpose of this as far as I'm concerned is to reduce the uncertainty and the amount of time pressure people feel on things like that and the amount of bunching that happens with review requests rather than to have a second place where we bunch everything up and everyone's like I need to get this merged by the 22nd because it's got 222nd on it like you know manage our work throughout the month. No I totally agree with you on the on the purpose of the 222nd but operationally we should have a clear expectation and a communication on what is the goal so my goal originally thought was that our goal is to get issues merged or MR specifically merged by the 22nd so I'm fine if you disagree with that and I would even propose that we change the name to not do 222nd if that's not what we're if that's not our goal right? Well you know maybe it's sort of different understandings of what this means but I would say my also I would also say that my goal is though my understanding of the goal is to have these things merged by the 22nd but if something's not merged by the 22nd I don't see that as a huge problem necessarily. Okay. Especially people are traveling for the summit. Well yeah I'm saying summit aside so let's not worry about what like this particular case but let's talk about the general case which is next month. You brought up a great point which is operationally first of all I didn't even think about like cross-team things so that messes it up but operationally we said like within our own team you try to get things done on before the 22nd and if you have a choice to work on one thing versus another thing you work on the do 22nd one first that's always a higher priority and then so when it comes to reviewer I think that gets really complicated because then I think you're saying they they should work on something that's something else and not the do 22nd first a thing first. All I'm saying is that if you've done as much as you can on your do 22nd things and you're waiting for a review you have other things to work on and if the only reason something misses do 22nd is because it's waiting for a review then it depends on how long it's been waiting for a review for if it's been waiting for a review for like a week and it's not a month where the summit's happening or something like that then you know we probably should have followed up with a reviewer sooner and seen about maybe assigning it to someone else but if it's not reviewed by the 22nd because it was submitted on the 21st then maybe that was submitted too late you know and that's just the information we have about right but I mean I'm just trying to actually maybe disagree with me Sean I'm just starting to actually make it easier for the both developers and us to measure it so would you would it even be better just to say the goal is to get do 22nd issues in review by do 22nd in review by a 22nd is that like to me that's an easier thing to control we would have a greater sense of success for developers because they can actually control that more versus like cross team things and then to me that's a better first step instead of saying getting emerged because there's uncertainty from cross team yeah but I don't I don't I just guess I guess fundamentally I don't feel the need for that much control like um I don't know if it's a communication call that but we don't control how much work will come back from the review which is why I think the goal should be to have it merged by the 22nd and you know yeah I can see your point if you have to spend another couple of days working on something after it comes back from the first round a review because there are a bunch of things you didn't think about then if you had it ready on the 22nd in review I would say that's that's too late like from my perspective the idea is to get it merged by the 22nd but I don't I don't know if you want to measure it then I guess in a review is easier to measure I'm not a huge fan of measuring things like that because you get what you measure so that's sort of my bias there okay I mean it seems like we're not going to change it so that's fine I'll just I'll my last point I wanted to communicate is that I think it would be it's a better communication to state what the intended goal is control is a bad word so it's it's the communication of the the goal of the expectation is to so we're saying okay so we're going to leave it and we're going to say that the goal is to get it merged by the 22nd I'm contending that's a harder goal to achieve because you have less control of it and then that would suck for developers because they feel like they can't they can't affect that goal as much as as they can and so they would be less motivating but obviously you're the manager of these developers so therefore I would definitely defer to you but that's that's my final word and I'll let you have a final word before we move on to the next topic um yeah I mean maybe we just talk about this again when Andrew is back yes deferring it is the best way okay so nothing's changed okay thank you um so 11.4 issues uh how long is this meeting do we have we have time right so um I already updated a bunch of 11.4 issues there's a lot still I think um what what are your thoughts on that Sean on the 11.4 issues for uh have a look let me take a look um I'm not going to share my screen because I guess some of them might be confidential but and since they're for your interval you can take a look as well and I'll link to this as I shoot over here okay yeah so first of all there's loads there uh secondly I don't think any of them are confidential and then we can we can subtract out the portfolio management thing I'm really annoyed that not annoyed anybody specifically but we I'm annoyed that we didn't get the inherent milestones thingy because what this happens constantly is every time we push back issues the like 11.5 11.6 there's just more and more stuff in those and that um I really want the roadmap view so that we can see then where we're overloading stuff um in the next couple milestones um so one thing I see is that we have four back-end technical issues which is because we've had to keep pushing them out but we can't keep pushing this out um so uh sorry five um so it's it's a bad indicator but it's a good thing that we have so far fives yeah um is it accurate that there are only three UX issues and two of them are already assigned to Pedro what the UX label you mean animal um how we work is a lot of these have been UX considered already so if you look at especially the portfolio management ones a lot of them are like um outgrowth of existing issues so they're essentially UX ready but we didn't we're not we didn't put those labels there specifically so maybe that's something between you and Pedro you can figure out how you want to do but manage that but i'm fairly confident that these issues are not like they're not new things that UX needs to consider or needs a lot of work on these are like existing ideas there's visuals and things like that was that the concern like there's there's not enough work for UX or that there's like like these are brand new things or yeah I guess I was under the impression that if it needs UX it is label UX and I see three yeah a lot a lot of it is if you look just sort on portfolio management all those are there's nothing like portfolio management for 11.4 there's nothing new like like like 99% certain that Pedro has looked at all of them I'm gonna do that right now yeah yeah pretty sure a lot of them he told me to open as well yeah so so for portfolio management especially Sean as you're looking at it I already told the team that I expect to push a lot of the 11.3 things into 11.4 because a lot of the 11.3 things will not be done and then so we'll have to remove a lot of the 11.4 existing 11.4 things okay we have a VSM thing in there about the time analytics line chart is that still valid for 11.4 I mean I guess it's waiting for Jan's thing about the system notes yeah I mean it's it's valid in the sense that I want it it could be invalid if you say like we can't do it but yeah I don't know if there's anything specific we want to talk about that so yeah if there's nothing that seems horrible then I'm fine or if there's something that you really wanted to do that that it's not there then we can talk about it but other other than that we can just I'll definitely just wait for you and Andre to to further parse this as as time progresses for me there's nothing like new it's just where we're continuing to just chug along and do stuff new as in there's no big new initiatives I see in 11.4 it's stuff that especially for portfolio management we need to we need to be able to close issues so that that's a big problem close epic sorry and so that's not I mean it's I guess it's exciting for people who need to close epics but it's not very flashy and then the other things would be the the vsm thing would be a pretty major feature but beyond that it's nothing new that we haven't talked about already so maybe that's i'm selling it but um yeah so from my perspective apart from sort of general stuff it looks like we've got a lot of elastic search stuff and a lot of technical debt some of them are both um for me to address okay um 11.4 so as long as we have time for that then that's fine okay I think a lot of the elastic search ones I think you added in I don't know for sure the technical debt things I think you added in and I and I purposely left it and I didn't move it out further um so so I'll let you drive that um and then go ahead and Sean look at future tech debt and like if it's getting like really ridiculous um that mountain um and if you want like a separate strategy to address it beyond just every month we just sort of chip away at the mountain um like if you want to put in an epic or be more strategic on like um you know managing it go ahead and and do that work and then let me know from my perspective it seems like you're putting it in every month and then picking a few and then if that's good enough then that's great if it's not then let me know okay um yeah that's that's all I had I don't want to add stuff on the agenda and then so are we meeting next week I can yeah I can I can put more exciting things on the agenda next week um like talk about more feature-ish things maybe it'll be a very useful time um Annabel you'll you'll be here right yep okay so yeah so we'll we'll meet next week then cool thanks Victor thanks Annabel thank you talk to you first later bye