 I think you gave me the high sign, Steve. Shall we get the meeting started? I'd like to start off with a call to order. Everybody's here that I can see. On pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Are there any additions or corrections to last month's meeting? For the minutes. Hearing none, I'll entertain your second. All in favor say aye. Aye. Opposed? None. Minutes are approved as written. First thing we have is a variance application from Robert Butcher requesting to build a new eight foot deep covered porch and match the width and the house and a stairway from the porch to the front property line at 320 Ontario Avenue. You're up to bat there, you want to step up? We'll have the applicant go first and tell us how you've addressed what we were asking for. Then they could have an opportunity to speak and then you could certainly rebut. I think the one thing for the board's attention is that last meeting we had discussion on this matter and there was some concerns because there was a top view but not really a perspective. We don't really, it looks like we don't have a plan. We have a conceptual drawing that is actually different from the floor plan that he had previously submitted with regards to a dormer that doesn't appear to be show and four posts. So again, this is I guess a concept of a drawing so it's not a plan per se but it does give you an idea as to what Mr. Butcher's doing. So I think with that we can ask Mr. Butcher to speak and let us know basically some of the concerns and what he's after and which drawing is going to be correct in terms of the one we're supposed to be looking at. So I'm going to plan some pictures that we had some problems with emailing so I don't know if they're up yet or not. Can I have my architect here? Is the speaker on, Bob? Press the button. Nope, he's good. Yep, he should be. Can I have my architect speak on behalf? So this is the elevation that you're kind of wanting to go with is what's the source there? Yes, my architect will follow up with this. Give me one second, please, Don. Just give me one second. Was that attached now? Okay. Okay, does the architect have the drawings? What I have is the original floor plan that was submitted and then, well first of all, let me introduce myself. My name is William Rollins. I live at 910 North 4th Street. I was the founding architect of Aquatica Design. I used to work for Stubenrock. I'm now retired. Rob is a next door neighbor. He has a property next to me on 4th Street and I'm very much aware of the history of this house because it's right around the corner. The drawing that was done I don't see the date on this, but this plan drawing is from like a year and a half ago. It's a conceptual kind of what we were looking at. When Pat, who is a neighbor, two houses west of Rob complained that it was blocking her view, that this would potentially block her view. Rob and I then went out to the property. Excuse me, why is there a block of her view of what? She has a single window. And what is she getting blocked from looking at? Her view, a slimmer view of the lake. I have photos on my phone if you'd care for me to pass my phone. Sure. And I can show that to you. The unfortunate thing is that Rob actually, we went inside her house and met with her. And what we had done is literally staked out where the post would be and strung lines, showing roof line and everything else. And then went inside the house and talked to her. And she allowed us to take a photograph from the window. I sat down at a chair and looked out the window and there was a view. And even with the post for the proposed porch in the sketch, which this is the direction we're heading in, she still has that window of view. We, Rob actually took a photograph. When I sat down and I said to Rob, here sit in the chair, Pat's response was, I don't sit and look out the window. I drink my coffee in the morning and I stand staring out the window. And standing, I'm taller than her. I have the exact same view. So let me put my mask on and I can show each of you what we're talking about. I could just start on one on the ends with you, Tanner. Get two of us. That's your old competitor, Belinar, Richard Lindy. What's that? That's your old competitor, Richard Lindy. He's also an architect. Oh, really? Okay. I did aquatic centers, I eat special ed. If he proves someone, I'd say it's probably real good. That's the window. That's the only window. This is from the neighbor's porch right at the rail. This is what she has to look through for the neighbor's porch. And then the wooden stakes, they see back there are where the three posts are. Gotcha. The window, the other neighbor's porch goes up into the area of the water. And then the trees move in their six by six. Burn out. Kevin, if she doesn't like it, you can sell her off for her. And then sell her another one closing the way. What we've basically done is gotten rid of the concept of having a dormer. And what Rob is proposing is to match basically the porch roof that's in most of that neighborhood, which is a four to one pitch roof, which is the minimum you need to keep your warranty on shingles. And in fact, this drawing was taken from the sidewalk, looking directly at the house based on a photograph I took. And using the wire frame that we had designed in the post where we had placed them in that photograph that you all saw. And she's going to be able to see completely through and still have her little glimpse of blue. Now, just to note, this house originally had here a roofed, a framed roof facing the street entryway that had a bench on it so that people could go outside the door and sit and look at the lake. And that would have been blocking her view. Rob tore that down when he bought the house. And for 12 years, she's an enjoyed and uninterrupted view of not only that little sliver of blue, but all of the flag poles and the emergency signal that's there and the signage that always says rip current. That's what she's worried about not being able to see. Is that the one shown on the screen up top that you're speaking of? They're original. Yeah, that's it with the original. So on the left side of that is a small bench. On that, yep, right in that area would be a small bench. And that more likely blocked her view than what we're proposing. So with that, I'll rest. Thank you. Do you have any questions, Steve? No, I think if you want, we could hear from the neighbors and then if we wanna hear from there. You've already got an objection to either one of you guys. You got any questions at this point? If you wanna step up to the mic and voice your opinion. Again, my name is Bill Burton and I live on 4th. Have you logged in, Joe? I'm sorry? Have you logged in? Yes. Okay, good. I am. I'm Bill Burton and I live around the corner on 4th Street and I did speak at the last hearing and I stand by those concerns. If I may say so, I think it is extremely distasteful for somebody to minimize somebody's lake view and refer to it as a sliver and can only see this much. Lake view is very important however much it is or isn't. And she's lived in that house for 45 years. So I don't think she's going to move. And I do think that she's entitled to her lake view. And if the value of her property declines, mine declines right along with it, as I said last time. Furthermore, my understanding is that a zoning variance is to be granted with due deference to the board. My understanding is that a zoning variance is to be granted in the case of a hardship. And the only hardship I've heard is a person who wants to build something this big, which I'm not sure qualifies as a hardship. So I would like to hear that issue addressed as well. Thank you. My name is Nathan Eastway. I live at 312 Ontario Ave. If you look at Rob's house, I am the immediate neighbor towards the lake. I, my concern with Bill is that mine's not so much of a property value or a view, but if property values do decline, mine will in accord with that. I guess architect Bill, how big are the columns going to be? And in the mock-up that was done, how big were those posts that were installed? Just at the railing height, correct? Okay. Right, so the difference was a two by two versus a six by six. Again, to Bill's point about the view that someone does currently have of the lake. My biggest and only concern, my biggest and only concern is the precedence that this would set for a variance approval for people on our block that we immediately care about, but also in the Ellis Historic neighborhood. And that encroaching so far on the public right of way at Rob's house, unfortunately would therefore allow me, who is between Rob's house and the lake, I should be able to do the same and put add on to my porch, which is currently 14 feet away from the right of way. The house to the left of Rob's is 13 feet away from the right of way. They're looking at seven feet. If a variance is approved, I should be able to do the same into a porch addition. And then therefore the residence is at 308 Ontario at the corner of Ontario and Broden would therefore be allowed to do the same. My concern is only the precedence that would set. Thank you. What's the setback from the sidewalk? 25 feet. 25 feet from the sidewalk? Correct. From the property line. The property line is just inside the sidewalk, isn't it? Yes. None of the houses need that 25 foot setback in that area. The 25 foot setback. That's correct. So it's not gonna. Right. What he's talking about probably view that really isn't the public property from the 25 feet in. That's his property. Correct. Anything that's outside the public right away is private property. Okay. So 25 feet from the inside of the sidewalk to this house is 25 feet. That's totally. None of these houses meet the 25 foot setback from the property line. Those are not 25 foot setbacks on that old. No, that whole entire block. In fact, the house that is between Pat, who lodged the complaint about the impediment to her view, the porch that Rob is proposing is even with the same edge of that blue house. I don't know if it's possible to put the overhead back up. I think we just look at, no, of the an aerial view. Give me one second. Go back. Well, that's good. The floor of that porch is eight feet from the house that towards the street, right? That photo right there. And it is virtually equal to that blue house just sold for $300,000, I think. An investor bought that, it's turning it into an Airbnb. Yeah. Unfortunately, none of the houses on this section of street comply. However, every one of these houses, including the gentlemen's, have some sort of entryway or porch attached to them on that side of the street. Pat's house faces fourth street. That is her front porch on fourth street. Her complaint is this window. Her view is not impeded. I'm sorry, sir, but we've been inside, we've taken photographs, we've showed them to the council. The view is maintained. This, in terms of value, will add value to the house and thus to the property, thus to the neighbors in the surrounding area. Rob has a double wide parcel. It goes all the way back to the alley. Basically, I don't know if you know the Zürheide property, but it goes back basically to where Zürheide had put a pad to park his RV down in the alley and the carriage house. Rob has the potential to put a garage on that property. Just as the neighbor to his left did, which was a realtor here in town who recently sold it for 300,000. He had a two-way garage. He built it into the side. There's a small hill there. He built it into the side of the hill and also had a studio apartment. He rented the house and the studio apartment. That's all now going to be a B&B. Rob has no proposal for a garage. It has nothing in any way to block this gentleman's view and can only add value to the neighborhood. This is not a cheap porch. I'm redoing the porch on my house. Doing it myself and just the material alone is over $6,000. And it's not nearly as big as this in terms of overall length. So, again, the issue was impediment of view. There is no impediment of view. The question becomes like Rob's neighbor to the east has discussed precedent. Now, his house does stick out beyond Rob's with his current porch. There's sort of an enclosed entryway. Maybe some sort of medium accommodation could be reached, but if you move Rob's porch in, it now impedes the view of the woman who's complaining to houses to the west. As I showed you in the photographs where the wooden posts were, those posts would now be within that window of blue. So gentlemen, it's in your hands. Thank you. There's a neighbor would like to respond. Because this is an important issue for the president that had said, I looked up on the county GIS system yesterday and was able to find surveys of my property at 312, Rob's at 320, and the neighbor to the west at 328. And the setback distances from the edge of the right of way, I believe three feet past the outside extent of the curb. My house is, the front of the porch is 14 feet back and my porch is a small inset porch. The front of my house is 17 feet back. 320 Ontario, the front of the house is 15 feet back from the edge of the right of way. The proposed porch would be seven feet from the edge of the right of way. The house at 328 Ontario, the front of the house is 21 feet back and their porch, I measured it as eight feet, putting it 13 feet back from the right of way. So the front of their porch sticks closer to the right of way one foot further than mine. And let me do the math, seven feet back from the edge of the right of way is the proposed porch at 320. Again, it's precedence. I don't think that Rob or Pat or Bill would want me to put a porch on that close nor would I want someone my neighbor to the lake side where our view is and the money comes from for our property value to be able to put a porch that close either. I think it's gonna look great if it gets approved. I think it's a great profile. I'm concerned about the precedence that it sets. Thank you. You can make one comment real quick. It's real important for the board to know that as far as precedent, it keeps being mentioned, but each individual property regardless has the opportunity to come here. So as far as precedent, is there some comments in terms of what you're saying that are true? Yes, there are. At the same time, each individual application, any of these people can come in at any time to make the same request and we'd be hearing it. So it doesn't automatically suggest because one got it, that other should get it. I'm not saying it is or is not. The precedent is something to be concerned about and think about, but each one of these is its own individual case before the board. There's a gentleman wants to, neighbor wants to speak again. Up to the mic, please, sir. Yeah, we just got people online and stuff, so we just need you. Understood. How you doing? I'm asking the board, is there or is there not a requirement to show a hardship in order to request a variance? Yes. I might mention one thing here. You've got three reels are sitting up here in front of you. And I honestly don't think your value, your property is gonna go up or down if he puts this porch on that house because you're not buying a lake property to look at the lake. That's not Ontario Avenue isn't set up for that. What is it? Each one has a different set back there. Is that what I'm understanding? Every house and every neighborhood has a different set back. What we have... What's the uniform set back when these were built? These are built in like 1900. Yeah. 1890s, okay, thank you. So that's kind of the challenge that we're dealing with is like the gentleman to the east. I'm sorry, sir, I forgot your name. Nathan. Sorry about that. Go ahead. When you take a look at the other side of the road, you got people that have the front porches basically on top of the road and on top, right on the right way. That's across the street. Over here, you mentioned it's 14. I think Rob's property, it looks like the property line is approximately three feet behind the sidewalk. So we're a little bit behind the sidewalk. He's seven feet with the stairs and then eight feet from his house. So the porch itself would be eight feet from the property line. Obviously he has to build the stairs because if you take a look at all the homes there, from a grading perspective, it's just the stairs have to be built as part of this. So yeah, it's, you know, hardships, one of the things you have to take into account, the views, one of the things you have to take into account. I don't know, we haven't heard from Mr. Butcher. The house has been sitting for some time. I know there was some things with a court and different things like that. Is Mr. Butcher going to live there? When is this project going to get done? You know, those are all things we'd be interested in hearing as well. You know, just a little bit from yourself. Like you mentioned, we had some legal issues with the basement. That's all finished. And I don't think anyone's familiar with that. I don't know if you want to just mention, you know, what took place there. He just did, it was poor quality craftsmanship on that. So I had to take him to court for that. But I mean, you lifted the house and put in a new basement. And so there was a lot of work. Yes, there was a Cream City, there was a, they're not familiar. Okay, there was a Cream City brick basement underneath there. One wall fell down and I thought, okay, let's do the whole basement. So we lifted up the house, put a new brand new basement underneath it. Then ran into some legal issues, got some money back and now I can, I have enough time and money now to start and get it done. So what is your estimated time before getting completed here? Pardon? At this point, what are you estimating completion time? I want to get the, I want to get, well, currently I don't have a job right now. So that's going to be my main job is doing that. Get the porch done this year. How long ago did you buy that house, Bob? Pardon? How long ago did you buy that house? A long time ago. I'll say about 12 years ago, 15 years ago. And I have been paying the regular taxes on this that I haven't gone to the city or anything and said, because it's gutted out, there's no value to that. I've stayed with $3,000 a year for the, for tax assessments for that land. Being a realtor, I want to think that the big thing on your mind was that you had a room to put a garage back there. If the other properties don't have enough room in the backyard for a garage, you've got a problem. Right, at this time, I'm... Kevin, that's more important to a lot of people than of you looking out a window with that, for the lake that's a block and a half away, is you've got to look way across the land park all the way to the Sea to Lake. Yeah, I want to get this porch and I want to start, I want to get it done. So it's time is, I've been sitting on it for too long. I have time now, I have the money and it's time to get it done. What do you think, Huey? Are you agreeing with Kevin and I with the garage having the ability to put a garage up as far more important than the view out of the, because this isn't really Lake property here. I guess my question is the neighbors that have an issue with it, I guess what type of porch do you want him to put there? Because he's really matching the neighborhood based on the home's right, I mean, right next door, also across the street, and I guess upgrading the style of that property. I mean, he's not looking at a two-tiered deck, like there is right next door. I'm just, I guess I'm kind of surprised that by improving this property, all of the neighbors, their properties will be improved because this is probably the, really it is, the only eyesore that's there. So allowing him to do that and finish, no offense to, I'm sorry. No, no, I agree. I've had with the city painting and stuff like that, I want to get it done. Yeah, so I mean, currently at the situation right now, you're hurting the people around you because of the condition of that property. After I finish this house, this house should be probably valued at 350 to 400,000 after I finish. And that helps improve the property values of the people around you. I mean, you can tell they take a lot of pride and ownership in their homes and, you know, definitely on each side of you and across the street as well. Yes. You know, it's a nice little neighborhood right there and the property owners want that to stay. So I understand that as well. But you, I mean, being able to have a view out of a small window on the third story of your house doesn't constitute you as lake property. You have to have some sort of lake access or be able to touch the water in some sort of way. So to me, I don't really fully understand why they wouldn't want you to do that improvement because it helps them. I agree. As well as the homes around it. So I'm a little confused on that. Thank you, Kelly. Sure. Step up to the stand and I'd love to hear your point of view. We all work for different companies, so we're not on the same page either. When a person buys a home, as we did, it has certain amenities. And a view of the lake is definitely an amenity whether or not it's on the lake. It's perhaps even more important if it's not on the lake, nothing's going to block your view of the lake if you're on the lake. If you're a couple of houses away from the lake, then another structure can block your view. And that's why when you buy your property, a few blocks away from the lake, excuse me, a few houses away from the lake, you expect the zoning to protect, to set parameters and to limit what somebody can put up in your way to impact the neighborhood. So again, it's a matter of being faithful to the zoning. And if there's a hardship here, we have yet to hear it. If you go back to the original photo that had that, that's what was there. If that gets built back, that blocks Pat's view. Those columns are now moved back in closer to the house and they are in direct line of that blue window that was created by this proposed porch. I own a house on 4th Street. I bought it and moved in in April of 2000. Has a huge bay window in the front. I could actually see from my house, the lake. And it was a, yes, it was a selling point. It was kind of nice to have. The neighbor across the street built a garage, had every right to do it. I didn't oppose it, didn't come into council and complain. Now I have a sliver of blue that I can see. And he has a garage. If you got a ladder, you can get on a roof and look at the lake. Well, that's why I was gonna come for a variance and ask if I can go up and have the two stories on the house. I'm coming back next week. But these things happen. And this porch would certainly be a vast improvement to not only this house, but to the neighborhood. Thank you. Thank you. Anybody else got any discussion on this? You wanna press it? Yeah. Hang on one second. Ed. Yeah, I'm not in the real estate business. I don't know how to be anyway, but as far as the aesthetic value, I think what's being proposed would add to the value of all the homes in the area. And to me, it would be a definite advantage to continue with rehab of what apparently was a home that was in Puerto Rico. That's all I've gotta say. I'll entertain a motion to either approve this or just approve it. I would like to know the city's standpoint on this after going through this after quite a while. Yeah, I guess from our perspective, Mr. Butcher certainly has the opportunity to come here. You're right, the zoning has certain ramifications. Like I said, the zoning right now says 25 feet and none of the house meet that 25 feet. So that's, but you're right. This is the board that has the ability to hear these concerns. At the last meeting, Mr. Butcher did not have a drawing really kind of reflecting what he was, I mean, he had a top view, but not really a design. And that was what was after to further the discussion. So from a staff perspective, this is not, it's not a clear cut one. It certainly has merits to it from a design perspective. And if the board was to approve it, I think whoever would approve it should approve it with a survey that confirms that what is being shown here with the seven foot and the eight foot is submitted and as well as final drawings. So that those drawings that would get submitted for building inspection review would be similar to what you have before you in this conceptual drawing. And if they were not, that it would be brought back to the board to reconsider. You're talking about this elevation here is what you're expecting to see as a finished product. That's what he's proposing. Okay. My motion? Yes. I would move to approve a set. Let's do this. First of all, we have a motion. Are you making the motion? I'm making the motion. Anybody second to you? I don't know. What about material? Can you, if I chance hit yours, Stan? It's going to be, yep, go ahead. Material is going to be a vinyl, taric or teak or the plastic vinyl is not going to be the composite. Yeah, composite, exactly. Yeah. So it's not going to be the treated pressure, treat or anything. It's going to be composite. And I had, like I said, I had pictures in the end. We've had some problems with the emails that showed up of what it was going to look like, but with the emails not coming through. But yeah, it's going to be a composite and a nice dark wood color. And the front of the house is staying the same. What's in the rails? There was mention of the pulse. Are those six by six or are those two by six? I mean, what, I'm assuming the final plan design that actually gets constructed, that gets submitted is going to reflect this conceptual drawing. Yeah. We didn't have a lot of time to kind of act on this and we thought it was important to sort of wire frame it out and to try to get photographs to give you at least an indication that Pat's view, which was what I understood to be the primary complaint, wasn't being impeded. Yes, I have a set of drawings that have done for Rob on the interior renovation of the house. I had done that preliminary drawing for Rob of a potential porch that has now gone by the wayside. This would become what we're talking about. As you mentioned, composite material, there's two different companies that make decking. One's called Fibron, F-I-B-E-R-O-N, and they have a wide variety of colors available. It's very stable material. It's what I'm using in my own house, and there's treks, which is more expensive and has been on the market longer but has less of a color selection. In terms of the encasement material, if you can imagine that there's a three inch round lolly column, kind of the way you probably might have in your basement, which is not uncommon, that's what would be encased in these three six by six. So they're basically getting trimmed out with vinyl. It's a polyvinyl material, and it's paintable. The railing that's shown is actually a cable rail tell the intention, spaced four inches apart, which is the maximum per code. The center column for the rail would be steel, and it's only a two by two, and it's just for attachment of the cables, and then there'll be a top hand rail, and that could either be painted white or stained to match the deck. There's nothing here that's out of the ordinary in terms of building materials. And in fact, my own porch, when I went to the building department to talk to them, the first thing they said is it has to be six by six pressure treated wood. And I said, I'm using steel lolly columns. And they said, oh, you're doing it right. And then the building inspector went on to tell me how he had pointed out to his neighbor, whose porch supports were rotted, that he needed to replace them, and his neighbor simply encased them and trimmed. My own porch is a gigantic A-frame on the front of my house. The only thing holding that span and keeping the A from coming, pushing down on the front was the trim. The only thing supporting the roof, the structure, was the conical shaped trim that came down onto two inches of concrete, and then just a perimeter edge of brick that was hollow on the inside. I'm structurally upgrading mine to make it correct with the ABC, Rob is gonna be doing the same. What is the material below the deck that faces the street? We haven't decided yet what we're gonna do to kind of enclose that area. What I'm doing on my own house is that perimeter edge, and I'm sorry that it's kind of a skew, but what I had done previously, what I'm going to do again, is I did a perimeter trim edge out of the PVC and then I infilled with the bead board. So actually used bead board so it had retained sort of the historical value of the craftsman's style house. And then are you using the brick? It looks like you have brick at the corner. Stone or possibly brick, things have not quite yet been decided. And the stairs, those are something other than treated wood. The treads will match the deck. They'll be made out of composite material. They will be pressure treated wood underneath, and then the edges will be clad and the fascia will be clad with that PVC composite material. And then the roof, both the top material as well as the portion that you would see if you're looking up from the deck. The fascia around the soffit is again the PVC composite material. And what's interesting is at that angle, standing directly in front of the house, you don't actually see the four one pitch of the roof that goes back, but it would be a standard asphalt shingle to match the roof of the house. And anything as far as, like I said, that just the portion when you're... Oh, the underside of the deck? Yeah. Yeah, the ceiling? Yes, the ceiling. I think we'd be looking at trying to do bead board again and carry that historical look. So your footprint on the lot is what you show here. 18 feet from the inside of the sidewalk, the lot line to the house. And then you've got eight foot deck that we're gonna be working on, seven foot between there. And you've got three feet from the inside of the sidewalk. Yeah. So there's, if you start at the edge of the sidewalk. Well, we can't feed from the inside of the sidewalk, but to be starting these posts or the foundation. Well, I don't believe that. Word? Yes. Seven feet in. Yeah, he's just saying from the sidewalk, he was saying the additional three. 10 feet total, three and seven. Right. The modern math is 10 feet. No, he was talking from the property line, which is typically what we talk from. Yeah, I'm talking from the property line. Sorry, I'm an architect. We talk from property lines. We don't talk from sidewalks. Would you have footings and dross wells below there? Excuse me. A footing structure below grade? Yeah, we have to go to minimum of four feet. Okay. I have a motion on the floor to approve this, and that's been seconded. Is there any more discussion? Has it been seconded? It has not been seconded. No. Well, I thought Kelly was seconded. It just got seconded. There we go. Is there any more discussion? I'll call the question. All in favor say aye. Opposed? Robert, you got yourself a deal. Thank you very much. I think the important thing is that you have six months to get a permit to start construction. Okay, let's move to the next. All right, let's keep going. Is there more to the meeting or are we all done? We're going to want a survey. And something for the drawings. Yeah, we'll get that. You too. Yeah. Yeah, thanks. Motion to adjourn. All in favor say aye. Opposed? Aye. Opposed? None. So it's carried. Thank you, everybody.