 Cool All right, this is the fellowship of the link call for Wednesday, February 14th, 2024 Valentine's Day indeed, right 14 And yes, we were talking guys with a chicken and we talked about bad aim I'm gonna be sit By Jerry and the tinderbox meetup Like Chris will attend and next Monday the free to spring cold with a demo by rich bar longer Uniform all the interesting stuff and a I was gonna say I missed the last one. Sorry, I almost missed two days, but Health issues and in I think you spoke about new books I think we did what it but what all did we talk about? Let me go back to my notes We talked about evaporative cooling of Grouping beliefs out of poesis Poesis, I love that It's like a cheap bullet. No. Yeah. Yeah, exactly the SA Warren's plaza is the edge of like legibility Yeah, that is last week So here my here are my notes from last week, there's a link in the chat Oh, cool So you can see my note taking for it and if you want to put that in as a placeholder in the notes in the shared notes That'd be great. Yeah. Yeah a lot cool School So where do we want to take this so so there was a let me report it on something that Pete and I tried to do so we have the neo books calls on Mondays and We're trying to sort of figure out what neo books are and talk about new books and we're doing here, too And so so that has been part of a big piece of our conversation here as well and hey, Aram No and One of the questions that Pete and I tried to bring into that call was about collective authoring and I think last week I reported on that here as well And what happened on the neo books call was only Pete and I were really interested in this and and everybody else was like Let's figure out how to publish a book but forget forget the the funny details But what he and I meant by collective authoring was okay if the nuggets of a new book are meant to be alive and social Documents and linky and all that good stuff then what does social documents mean? which kinds of technologies do we use for connection and Because we're using Markdown files on github the default form of social interaction is github fork and pull or branching Editing or other sorts of things, but those are very geeky forms of interaction Then the follow-on questions are what other forms of interaction might we want to add and then how do we make them? simple to understand and use because there's Five different things you could do you could add a discus chat to a new book. Yeah, dis q us You could add a forum like this course. You could add a discord You know server that's the place where conversations happen You could add hypothesis links so that you could go talk on hypothesis and that's not even sort of co-editing of pages Right that those are all sort of comment systems So that was the opening of that and we I don't I don't know that we've resolved it well I think what we have is kind of a little thorny net thorny web of Possibilities without a lot of career thinking my wishful thinking on this is that We can come up with some sort of trope that's easily remembered like cut copy paste You know early word processors I was I was using letter perfect on my Apple 2 plus and then later my word my word my editor was the UCSD Pascal P system which had a slow own a little built-in editor Those are those are my first word processors and they I don't think they had cut copy paste I don't think that Tesla and others had done their magic at part to sort of It's probably post-part, but I don't the macOS certainly didn't exist with cut copy paste But now everybody knows that if you look down on the keyboard You see the X the C and the V that those actually are power commands for doing cool stuff to move text around fabulous Is there some analog for that for how to collaborate on? pros document and What would that look like is it I is it an icon language? Is it just a you know how close do you just want to thumbs up or retweet or Reshare the nugget or do you want to offer changes to it? If so what way etc. I'll stop talking, but I hope that describes the conundrum So I mean I do have a Few thoughts some of which we maybe discussed before on these We cover these I think a few times if we seem to like hit this wall of like, you know On the one hand it makes sense to be like a prototype. That is, you know, it was a particular like maybe more technical Population according to some definition, but yeah, how to open that up later as well So I remember We discussed for example like the even the notion of like sending a PR for Or like actually merging changes of Text changes to nodes or or now it's You know by default if you get a good conflict you need to resolve a good conflict and that is sort of like it That requires some skills sometimes But because it's designed to be completely correct for source code, right? You wait which needs to be like, you know, of course needs to pass You don't want to introduce you want to take any risk For text for human text and particularly on like Nuggets if you think I all these you could imagine writing down the rules for how to merge Nuggets Maybe, you know, if you add a new part of it off, maybe that that can you know Or a new part of between two or you had a new heading you could imagine like listing all those and handling them So you don't need to request Actually, the direction from the user. So I think we discussed it before the other thing it just quickly is That there I know there are systems built on top of it and markdown that add some interface on top like for example It's on wikis. There's several wikis actually which have like files on git Back in and I wonder if we could reuse I mean, I don't know whether one that does it great But there's several I know so maybe we could explore those and see, you know, how they actually make the editing easier And whether they do conflict resolution and so on So Yeah, that's what I have. Thank you I'm trying to look up. What are some wikis that use that use our github as their Platform, yeah, I will say gith. It's a github there to me. Yeah, that makes more sense. You're right Chick Here's some wikis built on git golem docu wiki git lab github So golem is one of them Yeah, golem rings a bell. I Don't know why I didn't use it when I was looking around. Yeah, but That's probably more popular But I don't know for example if it goes as far as supporting like, you know properly distributed Anything like, you know, forking a wiki Margin it and emerging. Yeah And it was thoughts. Oh I mean, I think like there's a resource why We end up at the git model for a lot of these everything else requires like a lot of Come compute intensive work in order to make this sort of model happen I Think that's that's why we end up with these particularly geeky ways to do this because the github model is Computationally inexpensive it does not require every participant have a server It does not even require that every participant have a website And I think like while obviously a lot of us would like to push towards Making sure that everybody has a website In reality, that's not how a lot of people who may want to contribute work or even the people who have a website may not Consider it like the appropriate venue For this particular contribution so I don't know if that's really a solution per se, but I do think it's sort of Interesting to consider for Why we end up here? I Should add that Google Docs which lots and lots and lots and lots of people are familiar with has the standard ways of doing things One of which is you give people authorization to edit or comment or just view a document That's a sort of a trope. That's pretty easy to understand And if you give somebody comment access only then they can only can't affect the original text Those changes have to be approved which is sort of like fork and pull Except that in I never got to fork But I make I make suggestions to the text and Then if you like hedge-tox does that too though, right how so in theory We can collaboratively edit what the hedge-tox we're looking at right now Yes, but you can't have the Google, but there's no comments only mode There is a everybody on a on a hedge dog is it on is an editor, right? Yeah, because one of the questions you can make a comment on it, right? There's a There's a framework for that. I don't know. Yeah, there is Because one of the questions is how sometimes you want to protect the original text You don't actually want anybody editing the original text You just want to know what they think and then there's lots of different ways to do that We're having a list of who edited what went and where which hedge doc does with color While you're in it, I think right and I know etherpad if you save it to stick somewhere else all that data disappears, right? and you don't have the Like date time stamp changes as it goes along Yeah, but it's actually Well, here we go, I mean and I think Jerry you're spot-on in like we can have Google Docs because I find myself also quite often saying like well if only we have a Google Docs Of course part of my daily life very often that leads to what I just use a Google Doc But So, you know, that's that's one thing we will do by the way like a Google Docs does have an API a You know the company that is producing Google Docs we can criticize it, but you know, like we can still work with it And I actually have a to do for the hour, you know, to like say support Google Docs as a you know When you're in an old you should be able to say both create a Google Doc for these and attach it or Attach existing Google Docs to this node, right? It shows up when you search for them now And potentially even the text gets imported it should be too hard to Recurringly import from Google Docs. That's the easy part Google Docs to why would I would look too much a week? Because you know, you can get the print version and then you're just pretty smart But like the other way around, you know, like editing the distance is of course like more sophisticated And at that point if you build that I would agree that it would be nice to have Ideally like a wrapper or something that says, you know, okay Document with 18 functions based on CRDT or you know, whatever, like, you know There are these algorithms that make the concurrent 18 work and And then we have sync but that's, you know, quite sophisticated Yeah, and there's also what's it called already RDS T. What's the acronym for CRDT? Right. CRDT conflict free replicated data type. Exactly. And also What What rich burden has done with DXOS is echo calls it echo and I think this is important enough to say here In fact, it might be really interesting. Let me just find it properly So DXOS has something called echo, which is eventually consistent hierarchical object database and I'll place it in the chat and That's another way of doing it. That's sort of a I don't know if that uses CRDT or if it's a variant away from CRDT and we can find out But those are well known those well echo is not but CRDT is a well-known way to do some of this But again, that's if you're willing to let people have full access to the actual text of the document Yeah, I mean Yeah, I mean the suggest mode is cool. It's all Okay, so going back to Etterpad in the case we want to keep it, you know open It is the most user-friendly I've seen in the category of like, you know things you can edit concurrently and it has the colors that actually stick at least, you know more than Hitchcock and people have built more stuff on it But I always find myself disappointed that we don't have like a more well-maintained Etterpad But if for sure has comments Isn't isn't Hedgehog and Hedgehog and Hedgehog had just forks of Etterpad? No, Etterpad is an independent code is the way I understand it Hitchcock and HackMD and One more of those these are all like forks of each other or they come from somewhere Originally called Kodi MD Kodi MD, yeah. Oh, they're they're all forks of Sabita edit. Oh Wait, Etterpad and Hitchcock actually share lineage. I do not know So I might be making this up, but I think that HackMD is definitely comes from Sabita edit Yeah, HackMD. I think it's it comes from We need like a lineage for open source. We need a little taxonomy here exactly totally Yeah, and HackMD seems to be the most well-supported maybe Yeah, but in any case, I this is where I myself going back and forth between say, okay, Etterpad and building the Marlin support in it You know, I did the real stuff for the hour. I was Etterpad. It's still around if you and the Hedgehog is that you know, yeah Marlin native But it loses a lot of the user friendliness So you say Adam sub what? So you said it would they all came from sub eat or something. Yeah, I'll spell Let me paste in what I just asked Google. So here's the name sub Etha edit Sorry for all the texting and also obliterated the bullet points that were in there and description, but it's sub Etha edit Interesting which is Been out there for a while It comes from like Apple only Collaborative real-time editor design for Mac OS The name comes from the sub Etha communication network in Hitchhikers guy, uh-huh Yeah, I did not know that You know Etterpad came from a separate It's a different strand. It's a different strand. Yes, that's what I'm thinking It's his mind. It did my was the app on his fire as well. So it that edit And so sub Etha and it was originally called Hydra came out of 2003 got renamed sub Etha edit 2004 And etherpatter 2008 so it feels to me like etherpad was a different version of Sub Etha and was sort of a competitor or something else I had there were a whole bunch of collaborative writing tools or source code editors that were coming out back then So I don't I don't I think I've tangled in my head the lineage of these different things, but They offer a bunch of different capacities, right Definitely, and you know, this is where regardless of what we want to achieve We we tackle next. I mean if we got it if we got like a Great editor always if we help the open source community converge, you know, like in some way the people is it towards like something like etherpad but but Maybe more maintained because it's not It's not getting as much development as I I think cool. I think it's my my my perception That would be just like an already like a great feat Or if you found the one that is the the base fork No, one of my problems with using hedge doc HackMD and all these things is that the URL to the hedge doc is never the URL to the permanently permanently posted web page it's a hedge doc makes a temporary link that we collaborate in and Then you go post it elsewhere is my understanding and that's a real problem for me because For me like a Google doc has a solid link whatever it is wherever it is And that's just the link to the page and when you know when Pete brings up Not hedge doc, but the other one a lot we use all the time hackMD and and there's always an interim URL oh So I think Like the URL you shared, I mean we can always come back in and edit this This version of it, but if you wanted to make it look like a web page somewhere For for other people who don't have permission on the document. I think if that's a different URL, right? So I think you can share the view or your in that case like these which is a different URL It's just the same, but it has like a query parameters as you huh Fair I mean We actually remove it. I think the default depends on the installation. Actually the default is the view Interesting. So yeah, they're gonna go to the org slash video link just shows the render version. Okay And I have to do make the big links work here, of course And he felt just in the hour Cool Yeah, but I think I went to the massive weekly call. I think they start a different node document for each whole Right. So I may use they say how to generate the URLs, but that's optional I think if you don't give it a URL Like a slug it will generate one for you And this is a neighboring topic that's really interesting to me is like how do you do agendas and note taking? So that and what you do which I like a lot is one long continuous document You just add the new call to the top of the document and we go from there and One of the problems of group dynamics is that we often don't have a memory We don't remember what we agreed to last time I would create a new it's like every conversation is a blank starting from Yeah, and then one of the things that I like about note taking in the brain Is that instead of having one long document which I will point to as the meeting notes? I'm busy Constructing or decomposing everything into different things we mentioned and statements we made and things like that That's how I know take in the brain. So so I would preserve a link to the permit notes for that call But then I'm busy doing notes in a different way Which is more granular smaller than even having a separate page for the day or one days one calls notes And and to me is is the weaving part because when you do notes on a page There's a whole mess of different things that are captured on one document Which is only useful to the people who are in that call Right. So yeah, I know what you mean. This is where like a I use it They put this push concept for these for the lay of life essentially cross-posting to different contexts and I think in general It will once if you agree to keep into git or market on git and so on as a lingua franca platform I think we need to tackle the the problem of I guess the normalization That's what you see the term you're using at least in databases, you know, like where You know, you move from the strictly like minimum sufficient model, which is, you know, for some in this case you take another in a particular place And the data is one place to apply to a model in which it funds out and you make as many copies as You need to make so the data is everywhere So this is where it could also go back to the Collaboration question. So, you know, like Gary you take a note in your brain and ideally That will cross cross post right in some way to maybe even your obsidian You could get like you imagine that you see involved getting like a text only down or whatever you which ever knows you took On a particular day, for example So that will be like the normalization from in this lens. Yeah And we've talked a bit about pose and posse and poses the different different architectures for a word of post and all that Which is I find really interesting I don't know if we've solved those problems, but Chris, I think you have an explicit Uh strategy on that I don't know if I have one network specifically for this book Yeah, no, I just mean in the in the way that you post online I don't never mind the new books context at all. Yeah, but I think you you have explicitly sort of chosen An architecture for this for yourself, right? Yeah, or at least in places where it Where it works easiest and I can get data back. I Use posse which is post in my own site and syndicate out um And then there are a few cases where I usually do that when I know I can get data back from comments on things Which usually works pretty well um in some places where syndicating out isn't easy In particularly things like, you know, facebook and twitter have turned off their apis for doing that Sometimes I'll either do it manually or use RSS feeds or other methods and I may post Somewhere else but knowing that my system will suck that data in And create usually it creates a private post on my own site So I at least keep the data and oftentimes in those cases I don't get any of the commentary back unless I do it manually And usually I'll do that if and only if it's something that really actively adds to the conversation um And even on that front He announced it this week, but ryan bear is bridging across um The activity pub protocol with the at protocol The blue skies doing and of course everybody have exploded like oh, hey I think a big issue was he said i'm making it off Opt out if you want to opt out of it And everybody freaked out like oh, it should be off. You know, it should be opt in only um, but I think most of those people Lost the fact that almost the entirety of the fetaverse is you know You federate automatically and then anyone can see or read your stuff unless you block them Which is what happens typically with The nazis and the crazies and the weirdos you actively go out of your way with a list and say I don't want to see that stuff I'm blocking these people But uh So a lot of people freaked out thinking oh for privacy's sake it should be I should have opt into this When in fact that really that's not how the internet generally works and I think I everybody looked at it as uh An individual piece like I have to specifically go in and know this thing exists and opt out of it Which is not the case usually it's going to be your administrator at the You know your server level who's going to make those decisions for you and who generally Does make those decisions for you. You just don't know about it um so Oh Yeah I've saw a bunch of I've seen a bunch of people and I've watched ryan barrett's work for The better part of a decade And he's done these bridging projects with Facebook and twitter and all kinds of other things that are way nastier than anything you could expect from blue sky currently um, and he's done it very well and very successfully Without horrible harm, but I think he's actually doing more good Kind of for the free and open internet to create this adversarial interoperability whether some of these companies want it or not Which brings the walls down in general, so Uh, I read so much chris like and I had these conversations within the copy even A few times with the bridges in general. They are seen as uh, they are factions here. It's like people I can't polarize even we have social cope and I think that's representative of the favors From you know, like and and of course like it happens in these cases Each band to put it some way is quite convinced of the position Right, um, that it should be a default essentially like opting about out And yeah, I've gotten a lot of requests from like people I've seen thread saying like we should the federate preemptively from these from that And we should the uh ban boats if it is for things about it should be out and like Crawling in general, you know, like I think because before just the notion of crawling like a master and instance for some instances it is They feel it is um, yeah a violation of privacy Even though it is indeed how the internet works which is usually what I try to say But of course I understand that, you know, I am quite privileged and not I haven't been the victim of dogs thing I haven't been the victim of harassment. So of course, there's people who need better controls, right? of homicidivity Yeah, and what I have in social cope is that the admin that was on call just went um went and unbanned they were like Ryan Barrett's bridge Just just preemptively while the before the the community discussed it And we didn't know It may be the right call for the community. By the way, I'm not saying that mean the wrong but I would have done that. So, you know, this is where like even within the same admin group in a single instance You will have like Why the different defaults? And I don't know if you can read this Maybe not So a word at all from these Oh interesting. Thank you for the links Yeah, I don't know. I think Um, sorry. I was reading them. So I got sort of distracted Uh It is really interesting stuff like the idea of what is bridging how to things broadcast back and forth I don't know. I I I wish that there were I think we've talked about this. I wish there were different models than what we've got for federation Um and for like indie pub Where there's this question of Like do we bridge everything? Do we become broadcasters? I feel like there's a missing piece That's like We're very focused on becoming broadcasters unless focused on becoming collectors I think that's I don't know. I think like that's one of the problems I have with like This question of like the various bridges of activity pub like I don't know. I don't know. It just I it's also the problem I have with like the With the bridgey stuff one of the problems I have with the bridgey stuff as well I don't know The tough part I think really is the how do you map? You know hundreds of thousands of years of human social evolution into an internet Space and do it in a way that fits where where we were Or create sets of expectations of who you're going to run into What that community looks like and how it works and I think A lot of the issue is hey something new shows up that may look scary and this week it was This potential bridge to blue sky and everybody freaks out because they don't know I'm not maybe I'm not on blue sky and I don't I don't want to federate with them Although I you know, I broadly I haven't heard anybody Jumping up and down and saying blue sky is a horrible place the way you know me we or You know Trump's social media service were you know Three in the last three four or five years where like yes You expected the majority of people there to not be people you may want to Interact with so you're worried about incoming spam or crap but how do you And I just this past week. I finished reading um Corey Dros the internet con Where he you know broadly makes as he always has and for me his the book was A lot of rehashing of the last 10 15 years of internet history From his perspective And he broadly takes this stance that yes, we should have Small federated communities that are able to make their own choices The same way you you make a choice of which city or town you're going to live in and you have to negotiate how to interact with The people you run into at the store the church or school or wherever you're going And there are usually methods in That real world space when someone is horrible To either throw them beyond the pale Or if they're doing terrible terrible things you arrest them and you put them in jail and you segregate them away from The city But we don't have those methods of operation in internet space or at least not easily done or well done You know So you get thrown out of facebook or twitter you move somewhere else and you just keep like creating the same problems um You know unless you're like Do something so horribly bad a judge says you can't be online at all Uh, which you know very rarely happens um So those those types of things are hard and when new things pop up It's super hard to know What the social norms are should be around whatever that new thing is Yeah And you know when I discuss these things with people in the instance, you know, it's a mean size instance like 2000 people um active I think and You know, I see this fee these two, um, you know bands marriage like uh one or two, but mostly two um I cannot help but think it it has to do with How people are gauging the risk and benefit um Of like connecting with others Um, and it goes back And this is why you know, the polarization is not even surprising to me, so It could map the political spectrum You know, but it actually doesn't because you know, like in this instance, we are you know, it's mostly like left-wing and so So, you know, this is not that uh, but it is some degree of conservatism versus liberalism to put to use two words That we know maybe there's better words But you know, like there's a the person who is prioritizing, you know, not meeting the person. They really don't want to meet Maybe in this, you know, network instance, etc Uh, and probably the conservatism is in this framing There's a person who is prioritizing, you know, meeting all the people that they want to meet that they could meet So the person who wants to not cut the person who wants to cut Links by default early and the person who were rather not And this is where I think that blue sky actually has a potential, right? Because it's sort of like the coupling it seems as I understand it the The community or or group that you know, runs a base infrastructure From the moderation decisions and the algorithm and so on, no So then, you know, what I see in social code, which is like how the instance wants to ban Threads wants to ban blue sky rentably. I have the instance doesn't want to That seems like it seems like blue sky. Maybe the answer to that the solution is like, okay We can run an instance that has many rules with different preferences and leave it up to them essentially instead of having to say Eventually, you know, you have one policy and you're saying to the how the instance Well, maybe there's an instance that is better for you and you need to move Well, I part of that presumes too that You're on an instance For as a broadcast Set of interests So, you know, big platforms like twitter and facebook tend to be You know, I I post to them The twitter is probably a better example because it's I can post anything to it and everything or when I did syndicate to it I syndicated pretty much everything as a default because that's how people use twitter But when I go to reddit, I don't broadcast everything to the entirety of reddit. I Look at very niche things like, you know There's a group that really only talks about zettel castin and if I put political messages into that channel You know, somebody's gonna ban me pretty quickly because we just we don't talk about that here So it becomes a smaller very niche space of Or like, you know, I we had that link earlier in the chat to the a tinderbox forum You would expect that only tinderboxy related stuff is going to pop up there So that when you're there, that's all you're ever going to see unless If you see a political message, it would be oh Oh, hey, did you hear, you know, joe biden is using tinderbox now and that's how he's running his administration Okay I get that you have that discussion and you move on And then usually the politics or the religion or all the other stuff is pulled out of it um, so there are Fed ever spaces where I have, you know, there's one small community that's all academics talking mostly about their academic work And for me, that's great because I I know what to see and expect there occasionally. There's some political stuff pops up, but generally That stays pretty low key But what do you do if you know that community is like we will ban blue sky I wouldn't worry because I have other ways to access it in my sense, but since I publish everything on my own website Only a small fraction Or a subset of what I publish Do I click a checkbox and say yes, send it to that little fediverse instance of all the academics And kind of go from there But I get to pick and choose But the the issue that then creates more work on me as a user Is I have to know what's happening in those And you can call them publics There's small little publics of space. What's happening in that space and Do I syndicate a message into it? Knowing in advance how it may or may not be received And so when I think of social media, I think of it more a small little niche neighborhoody places Is this does this thing I'm writing does it need to be in that space? Is anybody gonna care and if I don't think they will Either won't send it there or if I do I'll ping somebody specifically Hey, you might be interested in this thing Rather than I you know, I'm not the new york times. I'm not everything I say is not going to be broadly interesting to everyone But sadly, that's how the majority of social media users use social media is they think Everybody is going to be interested in what I have to say and almost no one is A bunch of a bunch of what you were just saying is about a sort of group boundaries And I I love all that stuff and also a well functioning group understands its boundaries and its norms and and those two things are Key for group dynamics. Sorry. Um, go ahead Yeah, I don't know if that's true right people post Sorry, not what you were saying, Jerry, but what you're saying earlier chris. I don't know. It's true that like people necessarily are posting to social media on the assumption that it's for everyone I think I think the way most people use social media and we see it when people go unexpectedly viral, right Is that people post to social media thinking it's their small neighborhood and they hope that people who want to be in that neighborhood will find it and then disaster occurs when the the norms of the small neighborhood That they weren't ever really on was were was breached. It was why like circles made so much sense on twitter. Um, in the sense that like You could define the neighborhood and the neighborhood could be this suggested to people but you could But you could still live within the defined limits of that neighborhood and um And have it Not accidentally go viral in a way that you know You make a joke that thinking you make you see it like people make a joke on Twitter, right and the jokes context is they're small group But that joke isn't funny outside of that small group. It gets misinterpreted. It goes viral, right? That that's the classic problem of social media So I don't know. I don't know how how much I could derive from that in terms of next steps, but Yeah Really currents only died in 2022. Interesting. Yeah, that's yeah Uh, maybe it's a new one, but I think it's what's in the two years and the Interestingly the my original pad was used chat So I guess You know for me the decision thinks Slack took or essentially having the slack model to some way Which Conversation, uh, it is very much about like having more a controlled neighborhood You didn't have slack virality. I understand it, you know Yeah, I you know, I take your point But I always approached twitter as the You know the public square from which Everyone stood and yelled and whether they got any attention or not was another thing But yes, you're right. There are people who who don't know that it's the public square That they're having their, you know CIA meeting in And then anybody can over here and do whatever they want with it Um, which then freaks everyone out because they didn't have that expectation And I get I part of it maybe how you tend to approach Your social media platform of choice what what you think the rules are versus what they actually are And how you would write to a surprise no because here I go back Uh, maybe this is just my head of ship like this today, but I can imagine, you know, for example, I think if any of my posts went viral, I will be delighted I will just really I mean When that has happened and not very often I'm like great This was like I don't see drawbacks to that. Of course, you know, I've been lucky maybe with what happened after that But um, and other people will be horrified, right? And I think that's these uh, you know A lot of these platforms like Social platforms are sort of like sweeping this under the rug. Maybe It's like maybe they don't want users to think too hard about, you know, all the edge cases Yeah, I think oh, sorry go ahead. No, no I was gonna say I think you've hit it right like the thing is You know people like us on this call. We understand that that public means public, right? But most people when they are on A public square in real life Have conversations with each other I'd assume that no one will dip in and intentionally misinterpret them and start an argument with them, right? We're just standing on the corner of a literal public square Um, and I think most social media outlets depend on the small number of people who understand that the intent is to broadcast And also depend on the majority of users who Come in with the assumption that they are not being broadcast um right It's the old twitter thing, right like every day twitter has a main character and you hope to god, you're not it Right, but twitter wouldn't work without it having a main character. That's what makes twitter interesting to most people who participate on there um And most people who participate on there don't think about the fact that they could become the main character not really um That should be a sitting maybe right friction, right? What's that? It should be a sitting maybe like I want to be the main character or I would rather Be in the background Right, but the minute you ask someone That question they become aware of the problem And twitter is very dependent on the majority of users not being aware that that's the problem Yeah Well, but there's also the case too of people who are in social media only to consume You know, my wife Puts out no content whatsoever But consumes a couple hours a day Of watching either the character of the day or the thing of the day or the Comedy or the joke and they also rely on that a lot so you don't have to worry about the harms other than the harms of Your algorithm showing them something that's going to offend them so horribly they're going to leave altogether And I think that's a huge amount of social media space that Just totally gets ignored because you don't see it. You don't know it's there Yeah Yeah, I I don't know. I think that like though Social media platforms have an advantage from those types of users That's not the desired user profile for social media platform it's the It's the friction of capitalism in the system, right? You need producers You need people who are willing to produce for free and you need people to go viral Because that isn't how you engage people on there that then make ad impressions people who do not produce on a social media platform are required For the platform to function and succeed But they are not the desired profile of users and therefore no platform ever caters to that Right right other than to send the meds, but that's that's but they're not being catered to the platform It's not being built for them. Yeah. Yeah Or or it's being built at a very low level to make it easy for them to consume and consume and consume right, right Right the tick tock model, but I don't think twitter and tick tock are the same model Yeah, I know. Yeah, I know And that's the problem too is when you're a member of 57 different social media platforms the amount of Extra overhead knowledge you have to carry not only about how each of them works But who's on them and who you're interacting with Which just creates more and more levels of You know social You know, and if you're done bar number really is 150 How many people can you honestly keep up with and know all the social relationships and You know You know, so it's a whole lot easier for me to Sit in a call like this and have this be my social media for today We're only have to keep up with four or five six people And in their specific contexts Versus hey, I go to twitter and it's just overwhelming because there's so much going by Well A big piece of why ogm exists is my frustration with us drowning in the information torrent So that there's too many things floating by in the stream and we don't have any place to put them or share them with each other And the sharing them with each other part has a lot to do with The intimacy gradient kind of conversation that we're having here about who you expect to be able to read your posts And the intimacy gradient is this lovely pattern that says there are certain people you'd expect to meet in your bedroom your living room your block party and the the the city bus station And and your assumptions about security and privacy and all that other kind of stuff vary by where you are in the intimacy gradient And so How We haven't figured our way out through this very much. I was just I've been finding a whole bunch of old presentations I gave and I used to use a diagram where I talked about how Before the internet shows up we have two extremes of communication topology One to one the phone call and broadcast which is magazines tv radio That's it. There's sort of nothing in between not a lot in between And all of a sudden the internet allows All these different topologies to show up where twitter is weird because twitter can feel like an intimate conversation between two people That happens to be overheard by millions Right twitter is very interesting that way because you can do something that's that's very personal But it but it's actually out in the public view and we haven't comfortably figured out what the taxonomies or signal or semiotics are For all those different kinds of spaces and newbies trip along and they don't realize what's going on And then children growing up now realize that one of their private little posts And god hopes that they realize that any one of their private little things could go viral and suddenly be the You know the the twitter person you don't want to be that day Or tiktok or what have you and and and so Just since the internet so since 95, let's call it We have this enormous exploding richness of ways of communicating and we haven't figured out really How to do it so again my question at the top of this call about collaboration Architectures or whatever you want to call it like how do we help people collaborate on words? Which includes just hitting the thumbs up button and liking a post That's a that's a form of collaboration on words. Um, how do we make that better is I can be very jury and and I guess we are almost all the time, but like something I wanted to bring up is the the notion of maybe the coupling The terms of service to put it some way or the Contracts that we follow in social media essentially And you know the expectations the making public of our expectations the coupling does from the platforms You know to some extent When you sign up for a twitter like we were saying the issue is that You're accepting to a something a contract that is surprising to many right? It's And That may not represent you and you know We only you only have the video and and you know and no which is quite insufficient to say This is how I hold this tool Which is just I just make them is like, you know the internet Like you say it's like the whole potential of the internet with all the irradiance And like I've drained a few times of like being able to say You know, this is how I use this platform and this platform and this platform In a way that is universally readable. Maybe right Um, and that actually results in maybe different defaults kicking in, right? If And the goals but goes to the all team model. Maybe or opt out where like I will discuss about platforms. Maybe not wanting to expose these settings Or support them And but you know, maybe we should roll our own Well, even historically there has been shifts in how various media reacted to various things so You know in the early 60s Magazines and newspapers had a you know Essentially a quiet agreement amongst each other You know JFK is the president But we're not going to talk about his affairs in public because that's a private thing for him Or rose belts rose belts wheelchair You know or and then you move forward several years And suddenly it's oh We we don't care Because we want to sell more papers. So we're going to put Monica Lewinsky a tiny private