 All right. Good evening. We'll call to order this meeting of the committee the whole this holiday Gathering please call a roll Born here bow here Dacker Geshe Hand is here. How do you mean? Kettleson my illness Myer Montemure rent flights Ryan Sir here Vander wheel for Hassan Longham and I did hear from all the person claim is that so she's excused the others I had not heard from oh And I've heard from Oliver Meyer and all the right place told me he might be a little late So I I corrected that statement we have 12 present We have a quorum. Okay a quorum is present. We'll continue with the pledge allegiance. I Pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands One nation under God Indivisible with liberty and justice for all Moving to item for a entertainer approval of the minutes from the community whole meeting of October 27 2008 Under discussion any changes to those minutes Hearing none all in favor I opposed Approval passes item 5 the housekeeping filing of four documents That had been passed to us previously Entertain a motion to file Motion and file under discussion I heard a beat No lights people subtracted Thank You mr. Chairman under document under B document number R080809 council documents 636 a spreadsheet entitled effect on budget on Property tax based on assess value The city of Cessar was kind enough to prepare this for me earlier in the year At one time we were projecting Possibly up to a structure a structural deficit in the budget of up to 1.7 million dollars and I had Mr.. Lutsky prepared this spreadsheet on the effects of various potential deficits and on the on the Effect that would have on property taxes based on values of certain homes as it turned out The spreadsheet was kind of a moot point because we ended up balancing the budget as we go forward But I do intend as we go forward into 2009 having mr. Lutsky prepare another spreadsheet as we go forward with the tune to own 2009 budget in case if Hopefully there will be no budget deficit for 2010, but but if it is this spreadsheet would be very handy in Learning our constituents as to what a potential increase in property taxes would be and on the other hand The numbers also work in reverse If we have a corresponding Reduction in the levy this chart works that way also so I am going to have this prepared for next year But right now it's kind of a moot point so I support filing it Thank You mr. Vice president and also I think the time didn't we talk about asking the IT department to put a calculator on the website So people could be a clue to that too. Okay, great. Thank you any more discussion hearing none Under the motion to file those four documents all in favor aye opposed Passes unanimously Moving on to item 6 discussion of possible action in resolution 158 dash 08 dash 0 9 council documents 1640 a resolution creating a temporary government structure committee to collect data Study and make recommendations to the common council as to the economic and administrative feasibility of having a city manager or city Administrator versus a full-time mayor and a corporate council versus a city attorney I'm person one. Thank you. I would like to make an amendment to the document as as follows Be it further resolved upon upon the very top be it further resolved To have the government structure committee Present its report and recommendations to the common council on March 16th of 0 9 and have the committee of the whole meet to consider the report and recommendations of the committee on March 23rd 0 9 or March 30th 0 9 and make a recommendation to the to the common council for possible action on April 6th 2009 and Then under the starting with this with the second be it further resolved That this committee shall be compromised of seven members to be appointed by this resolution and confirmed by the common council The membership shall consist of the following Alderperson Joseph Heidemann Alderperson Eric Rindfleisch Alderperson Jody Jody Vanderweel a Member of the board of the Sheboygan area area Chamber of Commerce a City resident appointed by the president of the Chamber a member of the Sheboygan area school district a city resident Appointed by the school board president the county board chairman or his designee a city resident and Mr. Jerry Jones a City resident and local banker Motion and second under discussion Alderman Gisha Do we have to stand up? No, I have to stand up. I just just me I just as a Full disclosure Jerry Jones works for the company. I work for I don't work for Jerry Jerry doesn't work for me We're completely different areas. He serves on has served on past committees within the city and currently serves on Industrial Development Commission Currently and has been a life not a lifelong, but a very long-time city resident. Okay. Thank you I want to thank mr. Hartman for being here as well tonight His his letter was recently published in the in the Sheboygan press about how the Sheboygan County taxpayers Alliance feels about this issue This is this is an issue that you know, I've heard from several members It deserves to be looked into we did we need more information. So that's what this that's what this Committee this government government structure committee will be doing looking into two things and I just have a question. Thanks for being here tonight Attorney McLean in order if we were to want to vote on it April 6 Would it have to lie over would we have to introduce it to the council earlier than the schedule that? Alderman Bourne proposes January No, I'm sorry We would want to vote on it April 6th as a council the last meeting of this council Would it need to lie over if we if we as the committee the whole made a recommendation to ourselves Would that recommendation have to get into the packet and lie over for a time or could it be voted on as soon as it appeared in the packet? I'm sorry, whatever the recommendation of that body is if if the Common Council wanted to vote on it the night of Monday April 6th Would it have to be in the council's packet? Would it have to lie over for two weeks? Okay, okay, I know we try not to suspend the rules, but so what would it need to need to lie over Adopting the Correct approving that approving the recommendations and changing from the committee of the whole Right that the government structure committee would make its recommendation to the committee the whole the committee the whole would vote in some Way either to recommend it or not recommend it it would get to the Common Council and the Common Council would want to vote Either to enact those recommendations or not For us to vote as a council for us to vote on that Monday April 6th. Would it have to be in the packet? four weeks prior or two weeks prior Then it's got to get done even earlier no doesn't have to we just to have the discussion at the Common Council That's true. Oh, I'm born. Thank you My my amendment was to have the report and recommendations of the study committee to the council on March 16th At that council meeting No first now it goes to the count I would have the I would have the report and recommendations go to the Common Council on this on the 16th And then the committee of the whole would consider the report and recommendations on March 23rd or March 30th at the pleasure of the chair and Then make a recommendation to the Common Council for possible action on April 6th Now as it just so happens April there would be one more there would be one more council meeting after April 6th of This council depending on how the elections fall so we'll send that out So four six is not the actual last meeting of this council There would be one more but we could suspend the rules on the six and vote on it if we wanted to Okay, so we can I was just trying to think as far is that is that correct attorney McLean just works, okay It and just to be clear is your amendment to send it to the Common Council and then the committee the whole or right? He would just go to the Common Council the Common Council would make the recommendation right to go to the whole okay, yeah, I'm My my amendment was that it goes to the Common Council on March 16th Okay, and then to the committee. I'm assuming to then to the committee the whole either up for the 20 30 Okay, yeah, I think you got to just drop it at going to the Common Council But then the Common Council has to decide that to forward it is that what you're saying. Yeah, so So I would amend so I would amend my amendment then that it would go to the Common Council on three sixteen or nine And then we as a council could decide to either talk about it that night Or refer it to the committee the whole Correct, it's your second your a friendly amendment. Yes Okay Okay But we would mr. Chairman, but we would want we would want the Common Council on March 16th Well, we can either we can either discuss it that night or send it to the committee of the whole But we want to take final action yet in this council year Correct. That's the goal. Okay All right, Gisha only because I've screwed this up myself Just structurally Whatever recommendation would come out of this committee would need to then be structured in an ordinance change I think so in asking city city attorney McLean if the report can come out We won't act on a report in the council somebody's gonna have to sit down at an IBM select Rick And actually if they choose to make a resolution or ordinance change And I think that's really the question doesn't ordinance change have to lie over And that would be done either Theoretically by or not by one of the three alderman involved or anybody on the council attach Who would then decide to actually do the ordinance or resolution? And I think yeah, the report a committee doesn't have to lie over but if it's gonna be in an ordinance form It's a different question. I've screwed that up before that's why Okay, and that's what I was trying to make sure that we don't end up wanting to vote on an April 6th And legally not being able to Please As far as ordinance changes, you know if you get to that point It very well could require charter ordinance changes And there's special requirements for charter ordinances. That's not something you really want to rush through a charter ordinance change For instance if you went to a city manager form of government that requires a charter ordinance on The city attorney I Guess now's probably a good time to bring this Semantic issue, but you have a corporate council versus city attorney Technically, you would still have a city attorney I think what you're looking at is whether you want an elected city attorney or an appointed city attorney And if appointed you want an in-house appointed full-time person or do you want? A contracted outside legal council, that's really what you should be Direct in the study committee to look at see your recommendation for the wording on that is instead of and a corporate council versus a city attorney Would be and a hired a contractual Yeah, an appointed or a contracted outside council To serve a city attorney versus of an elected city attorney, right? And again that also require a charter ordinance change Okay, so and and what are the requirements for that charter ordinance change? How much in advance and and is that because it's such a big change you want to be deliberative charter ordinance change frankly and once it's adopted it doesn't go into effect for 60 days and that You have to publish that and Citizenry has a right to petition for a referendum on a charter ordinance change and it requires two-thirds vote on charter ordinances the council I assume the the timing you're looking at Doing whatever you're going to do with this council year. That's that's I think that's what the hope was Now the question becomes given given what attorney McLean just said Can we get all that done? You know that would have to be done. I would think by the end of February In terms of the 60 days, you're not gonna meet that We vote on the ordinance and the ordinances then the 60 days that's ticking and a charter ordinance doesn't have to lie over any longer It's just there's no no, okay Please all the room born. Thank you, mr. Chairman What is the charge of this? Yeah, I guess I have a question is the charge of the committee going to be Whether we whether we make a change in the in both of the issues either city manager or city administrator Or corporate council versus city attorney Is that going to be the charge of that committee and make that decision whether to do that and if if the council passes that Then later would there be an implementation committee? Formed to actually do the nuts and bolts of what the salaries are going to be and that type of thing or what's You know how in depth is the initial committee going to be? and later would there be a Committee to implement Thank you, I understand I joined a little bit late, so I missed some of the initial discussions So we signed you up. I saw that. Thank you my punishment. I I I have some concerns. I guess with the time factor Without perhaps looking political either position to mayor position of city attorney But also for the position of people sitting in these seats right now if we're trying to rush before the next election Maybe the appearance that Citizens are to be made And I think something of this this death may need some more time as we've seen in you know the 60 days Possible referendum, you know option on that one as well I think also we have a lengthy list of people that have taken papers out for the position of mayor With understanding that it's a four-year term And and I think that we have to look seriously at do we do it mid-term of somebody that that looks political You know regardless of whoever is sitting in the mayor's seats starting next spring I'd be careful to avoid that as well. I and not to necessarily rush it and Make mistakes that have to be corrected down the way as well And then the final point I think would be if we get too specific on the goals of the committee Once again, I think we've already made up our mind then giving direction to you know This is exactly what you're gonna look at I think if we do a little more general language in there saying to look at the position of Mayor look at the position of city attorney Are there other options that make more sense for city government as well as perhaps looking at the whole city government as Well, which is a bigger picture than I think maybe most people are looking at doing but we're going to do it Maybe it's the whole structure could be looking at and as a vice president born had said This he makes sense if the committee is going to investigate the committee probably also had will investigate There how to implement it if we give that committee time to do both if there's a recommendation And these would be the implementations if this is approved then the council simply has to vote yes or no On that picture, so I understand that any time constraint I would like to get it done as fast as possible But at the same time I think you know if we give a more broad spectrum to the committee to look at all the options and The procedures of implementation. What would that mean to the city? How it would look going from one phase to another phase and the timeline for that I think would give the council whoever is sitting in these seats a better option to vote You know yes or no or go through the procedure of a referendum For the committee for the city as well They can see the full picture of what they're voting yes or no on if it goes to that point time. Thank you Thank you all the person Gisha. I thank you I I tend to agree with the older person right flesh Except to the point that I think this committee has the ability to do all that if they decide They can they can decide on setting an implementation and giving guidance on implementation or look at whatever they want Regarding structure. I don't think it's that particularly Specific first of all because there aren't that many options if you're going to change it I think the committee has full power unless I'm reading this wrong to look at look at this any way they want Okay Thank you all my gosh I guess One of the things I was thinking about with the timeline is is that it keeps it clean Because Alderman Heidemann and all the men run flesh are up for election right now And so if they were they might not be on the committee If it extended past April, but if I'm sure there's a way to replace them if they if they weren't so As an individual my only interest and I might not be there to you and I we can be working at Starbucks, sir But I guess what I was thinking is is that we get it done it that way it doesn't linger The committee meets and meets Not to slow things down it doesn't drag out and the membership stays the same But I guess that's maybe not as important as I was thinking it was All the member hassle, please. Thank you, your honor. I'm your mr. Chair I do like the sense of urgency that you know the March 16th date puts out there I mean, I guess one thing to keep in mind if anybody's concerned about the time frame is that It's coming to this council this council could decide a The information is too incomplete. We want you to go back, you know So this isn't driving the decision a yes or no decision on any given date It's just saying come back to us with the best you can by March 16th. So Thank you Thank you, Mr. Chairman And just to offer the flip side argument to what I had just said would be the same time that if the committee Does not feel it can do that the duty as discharged it can come back to me and say it's unable to do it by this point In time, but at least that there is a date then it says we come back and say this is the information that we've gathered We need more time to gather this information that can make the council can decide what to do at that point in time So there's a flip side to what I just said. So, you know, I can read the ways, please. Okay. Okay. Thank you And attorney McLean There you go far as time constraints, you know the mayor It's gonna be elected and be in for four-year term. So that won't you won't change anything during that four years and The city attorney position is got two more years. So if you're looking to implement something Rapidly, I mean, it's not gonna Not gonna happen. I guess you're talking about coming up with a plan that to implement that would Look forward to those to those two dates So it's it's a sense of urgency to gather information to get smart on it But it's a bit of an artificial sense of urgency because nothing will happen at least for two years and then potentially four years after that Okay. Thank you Yeah, if you'll come up to the mic and please make it I thought you had a question I'm sorry if you can just make your question The question it pertains to this the two positions. I I was wondering I can see that the study committee to study both but they can vote up or down for either one So it doesn't necessarily mean all or nothing. Is that correct? So you're saying that the committee should certainly make two separate recommendations and so that they can absolutely I would think that that It was wondering why it was jump and I also If the committee needs any of these or any of the aldermen, this is that information that a lot of the aldermen had When we had the forums, okay, you can feel free to pass. No, there's some new aldermen And if they'd like some otherwise just pass with that committee wants any of this stuff and names Okay, okay. Thank you and feel free to pass that out All the person kettleson. Oh, thank you, mr. Chairman I guess would the committee also want to be sure to to consult with our city and tourney to make sure that everything is Legally on the up and up and that they are doing the right thing that that you come before the committee And and we know that you know something isn't right. So I think our city attorney should be you know Maybe not if not included in the committee as an ex officio No be given But at least certainly available for consult on the process and legality of the things they hope to achieve Right Only for speaking purpose only for auditory purposes That's good. Is that thank you? Yes, that answers it. Just yeah Any other discussion on the issue of Alderperson Bourne's amendment on date and timeline and the membership of the committee So we're gonna do a vote on that and then the resolution or Including the resolution, I think you should What on the amendment correct? Yeah, and then We'll need a second amendment or do you want to add to your amendment the wording and a Contracted outside council versus an elected city attorney That's earlier in the document. That would be fine. Okay Friendly amendment on that. Okay All the regissons. I can't resist. I hate to throw a monkey wrench into this but I Have to admit that I have been giving some consideration as to adding What this committee thinks maybe of adding a couple of additional local residents more citizenry to this I don't know what everybody thinks about that but Originally, I thought there should be more citizens than I know we have to keep an odd number But if everybody's comfortable with the way it is it was just a consideration Do you have specifics? Well, I I Would like to up for discussion adding two more citizens and that would be one would be former Alderman Eldenburg and Attorney David gas to to this as a It rounds it off to nine. It's a large committee, but it's a It's a pretty experienced committee. It's just a thought it'd like some feedback on And All the member has a lot of wrong in Thank you, Mr. Chair. I had the same feelings and I talked to a few people before that I'll bring in some constituents, but I guess I was looking down the road more so Excuse me the rank and file constituents somebody Maybe not as a former alderman or Or a lawyer bank or so so to say somebody from the rank and file that could just give us that ground-level feedback But I do like the idea. I don't know how you'd go about that though Picking from the thousands of residents here across the city of Sheboygan, but I do like the idea Okay One second President Hannah. Thank you. I think you very well may end up with Dave gas as the representative of the Chamber That's right And Alder person kiddison. Thank you, Mr. Chairman I I too I like the idea of two more citizens on and I that was a good suggestion from alderman Gisha, but if attorney gas would be on with the Chamber, then maybe we wouldn't have to go that way But two more citizens would be a I think a real good idea And I want to ask thank you all the person kiddison ask alderman Gisha It sounded like your initial statement was you think the ratio of alder persons to citizens might be too high if one of those three Chose, you know Demured from service would that make you feel better about the rate? Is it the ratio or is it the size of the committee you're concerned about? There you go. I I think it's just my sense that there's a lot of bureaucrats We're all bureaucrats. I don't mean that negative sense. It's just that I think It's nice to have some people on the outside looking in rather than the inside looking out I think there's some great input from the county and from the school board because they kind of run similar systems and things like that, but You know, it's a big personal highly personal change for the citizens in the city They've been going to the polls and not that it would we wouldn't have a mayor of sorts, but it's a big change and I think I Think somebody from the outside looking in might be Another body or two of that might not be a bad choice that maybe somebody has recommendations here neighbors or something like that Thank you, I have worked with both Eldenburg and David gas both in committees as as former all the point when the elder wasn't all the person I think they're both actually excellent candidates for the position. So if that was a motion I will second that motion to add those two and while we may end up with them from with Dave gas as the Chamber member they can they could look they could look at somebody else but frankly, but I think I've worked with them both I know that they're very level-headed and and while they may be passionate about their ideas They're always open to outside ideas as well. So I was second the motion for those two For a total of nine Right any other Any other comments on that thoughts on the side of it getting up to nine people orchestrating nine people Does that meet the committee's wish for a broader swath of citizenry What that it adds the two people we've discussed but then that so that assumes that that opens up to another chamber member And that all the person want to mail it. Thank you chairman I think I like Alderman Verhassel to suggest and Rank and file citizen because David guest would again be representing the Chamber and Eldenburg We already know where he stands on this before we ever start. So I think Alderman Verhassel's idea of somebody Who would be very interested in what it happens to the city because they're tax-paying residents And I don't I have no names Okay, and Alderman Verhassel Thank You mr. Chair again again equating Alderman Montemire's concern is that I'm looking at these two and they're they're great individuals There's no question about that, but you've got two people who've been politically involved Historically and currently and so on so you bring a similar in my estimation you bring a similar perspective of these existing Committee members here so again if there was a way I mean one suggestion might be to take whoever is appointed the chair of this committee that they go out and appoint two citizens Take it from that level. Okay, and even for that rank and file citizen Okay, okay. Thank you. I just want to say that I think the reason the Committee of the whole is entertaining this and is going to refer it to ourselves as the council is because Any mayor not this mayor but any mayor doesn't want to be involved in the picking of the people who are going to investigate the Structure of the office of the mayor so the mayor Believes we're doing him a favor by trying to pick people. I want to be really clear That we we aren't interested in stacking the deck at least I'm not and I don't think this body is interested in stacking the deck So I appreciate all the person for hassle and meant to mail or bring up the fact that there are some that that May already have preconceived notions the the purpose of this committee is to hopefully put together a committee that has balanced There may be people who come down on one side But hopefully then we'll get some who are undecided and they'll have a vigorous examination of the facts attorney McLean You know the suggestion to have an attorney on there whether it's Dave gas or whoever I think that's That's a good idea as far as the city attorney aspect of it. I think because I think it would be good to have some attorney on there to discuss corporate council versus in-house and and things like that maybe Certainly up to you, but might not be a bad idea from that perspective that You have an attorney on that honor. Okay. Thank you. That's good insight and all them and Ryan I concur with attorney McLean, it would be good to get an attorney on there and Possibly, you know, we have a pretty well-rounded committee right here. I believe and if we are to add two more individuals if they could be by recommendation of the Chairman of this committee and voted on by the committee and therefore it would be impartial I think that would be the way to round out the committee and get the proper people on there They would still have to come back to us Do you want to talk about procedurally would they have to be referred back to us or can we confer the power to a point to a committee I Think under Robert's rules you could Confer the the power to a point to additional members of the committee if that's what you wanted to do As long as the council, you know votes in favor of that, I don't see why you can't do that Thank you Thank you, if that's the case and if you have no objection all withdraw my my amendment if my second will withdraw Withdraw his and which has been done that cleans it up at least and change it the amendment to as has been presented by elder person born with with an additional Two members to be appointed by committee chair and two members to be city residents Yes, as appointed by committee chair As appointed by the committee or by the committee chair Does the committee need to vote on these two people sure I think they should I guess as a committee It's by a majority vote of the committee Steve doesn't Not a legal issue, but just as a practical matter You know the more you if you have the committee doing this That's going to be one or two extra meetings And if you want to get this committee up and go on and a report done you may want to just have the council Appoint all the members otherwise Slows it down time is time pass it by pretty quickly The committee Well, I don't know if I were the chair, I'd probably want to consult with the committee, but you could do that I think you may want to just have the council appoint all the members Thank You turn to McLean how you know we said just a few minutes ago that suddenly the timeline wasn't as important to us because Of the length or is that not what we were saying? We still want that report all our men borns initial Initial amendment is to have them have something concrete or a report for us by mid-march Alderman Verhassel. Thank you, Mr. Chair Just to clarify Jim McLean the chairman could come in in the second meeting with his two selections could he not and and asked for a vote at that meeting and You're respective of that the discussion could start in meeting number one without those two people and they could pick up in the second meeting those two citizens Yes, that's possible. Okay, so I think there wouldn't be a ton lost there again The discussion could start meeting number one and the two citizens whoever those two might be would just have to pick up the pace Read the minutes and so on and catch up That would mean you I'm not sure if your resolution here calls for you designating who the chair is But if it doesn't then you've got to first meet pick a chair and then have that chair pick other members But yeah, you could do that All the person month mayor you're next. Thank you, Mr. Chairman I think as Alderman Rindfleisch said by March 16th We will have some sort of a report and they may or may not feel that it's complete, but they will have a report Thank you, Alderman Montemar, and that's what I that's the feeling I got was once one Steve wants attorney McLean pointed out the fact that none of this matters for another two years Anyway, the learning we want to keep the learning on pace But the the criticality of week by week. Maybe it's not quite as important anymore. Is that Thank you, I'm actually Deco Alderman Montemar I Still would like to have a report by March 16th right for this body to hear while it may not be complete or not complete There will be information presented that we can decide do we continue on with the committee Do we not continue on with the meeting at least then there's a date line that we can see what information have we gathered and Are we on the right path? We're not the right path And then the council can decide what to do out of this council the next sitting council can decide what to do beyond that So I think times of the essence at least for the initial report, but as McLean attorney McLean mentioned that You know we the earliest we could do anything with at least his position is two years and four years for the position of mayor, so Now I think time is not as much of the essence for the full detailed report So I think you know if we wanted to hurry it on I would say this this committee should or the council should actually Appoint which person should be the chairperson? So from day one we know who chairs You don't have to do an election and if anybody has names right now We can you know at least put them down there approve them based on their acceptance of it And go and do that if we wanted to have everything done by March 16th However seeing as we don't need that I would say let the committee do its work And at least it's can be impartial they elect their own chairperson They can the chairperson can appoint to it may take some time freeing, but at least we'll have some report by March 16 or the other a Question for attorney McLean, I guess someone had mentioned regardless of who wins the office of the mayor So we don't have a face in that seat Could this body alter the duties of that person? So that this structure is that even is that even possible because somebody told me it was and I that sounded shady to me I think once The Mayoral position has been elected. I think they're Their term is four years. I I don't think you can really change their duties during the term. You could okay, that's the after the term but You know unless that that person unilaterally agreed to resign or something as Mayor under that has originally defined and agreed to allow some other scenario to take place, but I think Absent something like that You elect a mayor for a four-year term his duties are to act as mayor based on The duties that have been provided to him. Okay. Thank you. That's what I Thought sounded right, but someone was sure it wasn't and wanted clarification on that. Okay, so that certainly removes the time Constraint all the person want the mayor. Thank you. It's me again. No, thank you of these seven people or seven areas three specific people and then Mr. Jerry Jones for specific people and then on no one's I would bet in that group of seven people They're going to know two wonderful citizens that should be added that we have no idea even exist I think so and that they'll convene on that informally before they may maybe even before they meet I think that's a great idea Thank you. Oh citizen Montemay or did you have a question? I wasn't I wasn't selecting appointment, please If elected you will not serve That This kind of happened about Three years ago where I think it was all of them All in Ellenberg charge of board of park and forestry to come up with a Doc study committee Okay I purposely I was happy to be the chair of that that of that board and I I came up with and I came up with the with the committee left myself off the committee on purpose because I'm not a dog owner But I named two citizens at large That had to come back to the council for Verification, okay, the council still had to vote on those two citizens the three board members were okay But those two citizens had to come through the council to get Verified, okay, so we just have to be consistent with this So I just want to make sure attorney McLean I think what I heard attorney McLean say though is if we specifically Designate that committee the power to a point then it doesn't have to come back to us and as long as he's comfortable with that And we're comfortable with that Okay, aren't you still the chair of the dog Did we ever leave you of the dog committee chairman chair is Thank you citizen month me or Okay, so if there's no more discussion, I think what we're about to vote on is a date Timeline on Alderman Boran's amendment, which is that they would report to us by March 16 16th committee the whole meeting Soon thereafter with a recommendation for the council to vote on an April 6. So one thing we're voting on is that timeline The second thing we're voting on is an appointment of the people on the list in front of you, which would be All the person 40 Yeah, yep, and that's Heidemann Ryan flesh vandal wheel A city resident from the chamber a city resident from the school board a city resident from the county board Mr. Jerry Jones a city resident banker and two members City residents as appointed by a majority vote of the committee Clarification you said a ordinary school board member, which is correct, but in your memo here You say a member of the ordinary school district. I think you want to say a board member of the school board Yes, a board member of The shabuigan area school district who is also a city resident, okay? So those are the two things two things Oh, and then the third element is of the original document 1640 to change and a corporate council versus a city attorney to change that phrase to and a Contracted outside council versus an elected city attorney. Those are the three changes. We are voting on Empowering the committee to appoint two citizens at large by the paragraph and two members City residents as appointed by a majority vote of the committee Does that meet your test? Attorney McLean is that sufficient? I? Believe so and it'll be helpful Assumed by the next council meeting. This will be in writing. Yes, this document will come back So those are the three changes is there any more discussion or any more clarification on the things that we will be changing Okay, then with that I'll ask Alderman Hannah to call the roll warren. All right, I'll have seen Decker Yes, yeah Hannah votes aye Hyde Kittleson month more rainflesh Ryan Sir Vander wheeling for hassle 12 eyes one abstain Motion pass as amended that recommendation to ourselves passes. I will I told City clerk sue that I would get her this information tonight so that it can get in time for our next packet because tonight's the cutoff So I'll send her some of this information. I turn him clean Just procedural question. I guess I would see that as Approving the amendments to the document then you you would want to act on another document that or another motion of proving the Thank you So having approved the amendment the three amendments that we just approved now We will open it up for continued discussion on the document as a whole is there any further discussion on the document as amended Okay, then we'll move to a further vote on approving the A recommendation to ourselves as a council as amended Yeah, we need a motion. We had that already to be discussing it didn't we to get to the amendment the original motion was was Born in yourself. Yes Okay, as amended Move to approve as amended Second by all remember hassle, okay any further discussion Okay, voice vote, please born I bow I'll abstain again Decker Gisha Hannah votes I Heidemann Kittleson Montemure Rene Fleiss Ryan Sir, all right, Vander wheeling for hassle 12 eyes one abstain passes very good that recommendation will be forwarded item 7 just a discussion about possible future topics the the city's Outside labor attorneys are prepared to talk to us in closed session about the city labor contracts that will come up in 2009 and then want to have that discussion with us as early as possible so we can begin thinking about how that affects the various committees and What our strategy should be for oh nine That's one possible topic and you see some of the others listed there Is there a preference among this body what our January topic should be Alderman born? Thank You mr. Chairman the City County Shared Services Committee is going to be meeting in early January. I forgot the exact date on on the for further information and recommendation on countywide dispatch so I think somewhere early in 2009 providing the City County Shared Services Committee votes to go at least move further with the combined dispatch That we should probably have the report from the ad hoc committee on what the recommendation is and So mr. Maybe mr. Maples from the chairperson of that committee would want to come in and do a presentation for all the council at the committee of the whole and I think that should be an early and oh nine So perhaps does the committee prefer the labor contracts get that knowledge get smart on that in January And then we'll call the February meeting to be Shared services All right, thank you President Bach Did you say that you had discussions and the attorneys and those folks are have been alerted and they want to engage Us with Susan Hart has told me that they're ready to engage us and they want to come in Yep, I don't I have no idea what they're gonna say But she just said they're ready and anxious to tell us so we can as a body and a bunch of committees can be planned What that means for our early oh nine steps what I just misunderstood. Okay, and I'll remember Hassel. Thank you, mr. Chair just to fly the flag a little bit for 7b We are without a pay plan at the very moment and the reviews generally work from July through July So there is a bit of urgency there as well I mean I obviously those are big issues and we have to tackle that labor contract early and often but Just wanted to point out that we don't have to the end of the year technically speaking Okay, so and we don't have to keep it to one a month You know we do that as as it's comfortable But if things become pressing and I think all remember Hassel brings up a good point We said that when we approved the pay raise for oh nine That we needed to get hot on or get busy on Determining what the next pay plan should be and there's a document waiting for you. So, okay So what I think I hear you saying is Contracts first shared services second pay plan and then I bet during one of those we could probably work in 15 or 20 minutes For all the person client is to talk about before you know while global warming has us in its grips right now We will give her a chance to talk about that. Well Alderman guest should be joining her in that presentation Okay, any any other business Alderman Guesha Regarding the pay plan thing Hopefully by that time because it looks to me like our Our committee or hiring committee civil service commission seems to be kind of hot on the trail of Interviews with human resources director if we do that in March, maybe we can have an opportunity for input from the person Who's actually gonna have to implement it great Any other thoughts? Okay, entertain a motion to adjourn All in favor I Close tonight. Thanks everybody