 We read the headlines every day and it's quite evident that the new government under Prime Minister Modi is making the argument that the business environment and the ease of doing business in India has changed considerably. However, what is the reality check of this slogan? Is this even possible to do without proper infrastructure in place? Does the infrastructure story in India get the attention and the scrutiny and the debate that it deserves? They say that to build a nation you need to build roads. But let's take roads to start with because we have the surface transport minister here with us and I thought it would be interesting to talk about them. India is confronted with the problem of both quality and quantity. The World Economic Forum itself in a report ranked India 27th on the quality of roads. When it comes to quantity, the statistics are even more frightening. From 2004 to 2014 the road making capacity of India some estimates say came down from 20 kilometers a day to 3 kilometers a day. Can the new government change all that? How do we assess the make in India slogan? Has the world started looking at India in a different way now that there is a new government in place? And can any of this possible without proper infrastructure? Let's introduce our panel today with me is of course Nitin Gadkari and I must tell you something about him which makes his presence on this panel even more interesting when he was a Maharashtra politician. Instead of Gadkari he used to be known as Pulkari or the flyover man because he used to keep building highways and roads and flyovers and poles and can he bring that reputation to the central ministry or will he find it considerably difficult? I think that's going to be one of the questions we'll put to him today. On my left is Yorihiko Kojima chairman of the board of the Mitsubishi Corporation from Japan. This is very interesting because Japan was of course high on the agenda of Mr. Modi's visit. It was one of the most high-profile first big foreign visits but what really adds up once the photo ops are over that's something we'll put to him. Ajit Gulabchand chairman and managing director with the Hindustan Construction Company has in a sense a company that has been pioneering in the area of infrastructure most recently involved with the with the ceiling in Mumbai. Those of you who are from Mumbai will will know that what are some of the problems the hurdles the obstacles he had to face. He'll talk a little bit about that and Mark Spellman global managing director with Accenture based in the United Kingdom. Mr. Gadkari I'll start with you. It was easy to be the flyover minister the flyover man in Maharashtra when you're actually running this ministry in the government when you find that 1.8 lakh crores of projects were stalled because clearances were not coming or because money has actually dried up for public sector banks. How realistic is it for your government to aim to build 30 kilometers of roads today? I want to give the track record which easily prove that what is the performance of our government. The one thing is very true that before coming to this government our infrastructure particular road sector facing lot of serious problem but now we have already solved the problems. You've already solved them. Yes I'm giving you the data about it because it can prove the performance of our government. Project where issues have been sorted out that is of 17 projects length 2384 kilometer cost is 1,87,000 crores have already cleared projects where later of appointment is given but withdrawal with good golden shake hand that is of 4,087 kilometer cost 50,000 crores project have closed. What is this golden handshake? I think a lot of people are interested. You're actually terminating contracts that didn't work out so why is that a good thing? That is a sophisticated it is already the termination of contracts. Exactly. One percent they are given to NHI because from last three years the financial closer was there the land equation was not there forest environment clearance was not there. Yes. Then really over which problem was there a lot of things were even I just request them two times three times but this is what the first situation when I requesting the contractor and contractor refused to work and that's why the project of 50,000 crores they haven't withdrawn projects behind schedule were issues to be sorted out of 1800 kilometer 26 project the cost is 20,624 crores it is already going on the problems are there and I'm confident any due course of time I will solve that problem. Okay but you've given us the figures now give us the honest picture how difficult is it really to deal with environmental clearances on the one hand a land acquisition bill that even your finance minister says he wants to change even though your party supported it when you were in the opposition what is the biggest hurdle to the infrastructure story Mr. Gadkari? First of all I want to clear one thing any journalist from the country never challenge about my statement what I speak honestly and clearly if the mistakes is there I will accept it. Now here hurdles thousands of hurdles are there the main hurdle is land acquisition and without land acquisition without forest environment clearance without lot of thing there no clearance was there and contractor received the work order the financial closure was there and that's why the projects are now economically non-viable that was the one of the reason but by in existing law there are also many compulsions and binding on us but we have find out the way out and now the sector is now running and I'm giving you the confidence I am ready to give you the number of projects name of the projects it is on my website already we have already solved the problem so let us believe in the leadership of Narendra Modi ji and our government and in due course of time my target is within two years let it note it down your record after two years you can ask me within two years now the our plan our ambition is making 30 kilometers per day and it is presently it is less than three kilometers that's what I said but I am giving you the assurance you can change this in two years 100% and you take it on your record otherwise ask me the question after two years in your show Mr. Gadkari what it happens to you okay you are right for that but I am telling you with my full confidence with positive approach whatever the things are moving now I am very much sure about it that we will solve the problems we are very positive we want to support the contractor we are very friendly for foreign investment we are encouraging the people and the practical level on ground reality what are the problems we are facing I am personally taking every time record of every project and I am sure that the problems will be solved okay so please note on record and we will call the minister back here in two years that from under three kilometers a day of road making capacity you are saying it will be 30 kilometers in two years now sir you spoke about foreign investment I must take it now to Mr. Kojima the chairman of the board of the Mitsubishi corporation Japan grabbed the headlines when our prime minister met their met with Shinzo Abe you had a chance to actually be part of that meeting 35 billion was committed in investment what for Mitsubishi or what for the world has actually changed in India is it just a new leader who's promising new things or are you seeing any visible signs of change okay Kojima is my name and I have to respond to your questions yes well a Prime Minister Modi visited Japan the first and second of September this year and at that time say he had a very good meeting with the Prime Minister Abe and this is Prime Minister Modi's first visit outside of India Japan was the first time that's a very happy for Japanese and I was requested to attend that meetings and I heard the presentation of Prime Minister Modi frankly speaking we are very much impressed with his speech and the presentation frankly speaking what we are doing in the India I like to briefly explain and our company is the used to be a trading company but now the trading profit is just 30 percent and 70 percent profit coming from the investment investment oh now you are changing your business model from the trading company to the investment banker no no not only investment banker we are we invest not only money but also human resources for those subsidiary companies therefore in total globally 600 subsidiary companies investment already and however in India approximately 20 investment we have to increase more and always we are watching when is a very good opportunity and important issues we invested 600 companies however we second more than 200 CEO chief executive officer the president from our company to those subsidiary companies important issue is our employees in the future is the management high level people that's very important for our company therefore in that sense and our company is always invest and send the people and to add the value for those companies and eventually profit will be coming those subsidiary companies and under such circumstances particularly in India infrastructure business and also power business and even railway business and so forth for instance daily metro and we invested and there are so many others however we are always cautiously investing because states by states regulation and also the taxation so many issues are different and there are so few countries like that and besides former government central government doesn't didn't have but say capacity to control all of the countries therefore every company outside of the India invested and most of them didn't get to profit and sometimes very big growth and you're saying one of the big problems was that there was no uniform policy it kept changing from state to state I'd like the minister to respond to that and then I'll come to you Mr Gulabchand the the fact that the previous government the experience of someone as important as the Mitsubishi chairman is that there was no uniform policy now even today it's not as if the BJP controls all the states sir so wouldn't this be a problem even today for a big foreign company looking to do business in more than one place in India he is absolutely correct because in many factor there are different laws are there different systems are there so uniform mission is very essential because in our country infrastructure is divided railway minister is something different aviation is other the roads and shipping is with me shouldn't they all have been under you I don't know it's only the prime minister he's the appropriate person okay no but a more serious question you know as you yourself have said don't you do not need a converge you know a merged ministry of transport which also includes we need a multimodal transport policy for the country because in some area the hill area is there where railway is not there so we have to connect my roads somewhere we have to form heliports so now we have started sea plane so we can use that take the advantage of water port bus port and airport so there we need the integrated approach for multimodal transport system he's absolutely correct and now but under the leadership of prime minister he's of the same opinion and we are forming the uniform policy for that and in due course of time I am confident that we will succeed to form a uniform policy and what he suggests is absolutely correct Ajit Gulabchan as somebody who's had hands-on experience with with the hurdles the minister was candid enough to say there are thousands of hurdles the land acquisition act is one of the most important ones of them I suspect we will see a change the finance minister spoken about it Mr. Gadkari spoken about it but in your experience what is the biggest hurdle to a company like yours looking to actually do business in the sector of infrastructure well considering the amount of money that NHIO is my company how much is that it is difficult to be candid but nevertheless what I can say to you the biggest hurdles face there are two types of things we as a company operate as a construction contractor on some projects and we operate as a concessionaire who takes a BOT project and operates when you the problems on both are similar and dissimilar but one of the important features that has that confronts everybody the same thing that the minister spoke of land acquisition has come in the way the concession agreements have been given or even construction contracts have been given and then the land is not available equipment has been brought to site work is underway it is stopped several times so this piles up delay after delay and a cost after cost and there are consequences and we're not talking of simple costs we're talking about sometimes going up to even 50 percent of the value of the contract and all this extra money is then borrowed from the banks in order to do it and and that creates a huge interest burden and that has created this lock jam no but what is a company like yours do when you are owed money no that's what I'm saying so there is a dispute resolution mechanism in the concession agreement as well as in the contracts now this dispute resolution mechanism has failed in the sense it was meant for disputes but it is now being used to quantify and price the amount of money that should be given in case of delay or a change but that is because there's a fear of making a decision for the for the for the fear that they will be they will be charged with corruption the same reason every decision given by a dispute resolution body at the lowest and the d r dispute resolution and then to the arbitration and then to court is challenged it goes all the way to supreme court taking years to take a decision so what's the solution the solution is that which is under way which is being prepared that they must follow the contract and pay according to what the contract says and have a dispute resolution mechanism that's credible and implement now I think this is something that the minister is fully aware of and is tackling it's not so easy to do given the atmosphere in the country where this fear continues to exist it hasn't gone away even though the government has changed but with more assurance and the contracts being changed in future I think this because this is a big big blessing the fear of being labeled corrupt is one of the big hurdles in this environment but in this in this context Birkha let me tell you some of it is fear of like corrupt and some of them those who don't wish to take decisions use this also I'd like Mr. Garkhari to respond quickly to that and then I'll bring you in mark the fear of being corrupted I mean I mean you know you do have politicians today saying our bureaucrats are scared of clearing files because five years later it will be a controversy yes it's a problem because the moral attitude of the bureaucracy is now because every time someone complained then start cbc cba another thing so the not taking decisions is a good policy for the bureaucrats but because after taking a decision they are facing the problems but one of the thing what Ajith is saying is absolutely correct our model agreement was actually that was a there was a lot of problem in that agreement so we have decided to appoint a committee under our principal cabinet secretary and considering the representative of the trade and business contractors and we are going to form a international standards for document or model agreement which can be not favored to anybody which can be transparent and which can be favored not favor to anybody but which can be stands on the principle of justification because the present agreement is very much against the contractor and bankers so no bank can finance that with that agreement there is a problem so we have decided to change that agreement model agreement and we're taking all suggestions from them and it should be a fair agreement by which it can be acceptable to the bank and he's absolutely correct and I'm of the opinion to change it and it's interesting that you do concede that over the years bureaucrats have actually got locked into this kind of policy paralysis mark is pelman if I can get you now how does India today look to to the rest of the world as a destination for doing business the prime minister here is committed to making it easier to do business but what has actually changed specifically from the outside looking in well I think there's a lot of confidence around India as a country if you look at the global context if we assume that US and China growth is at least me okay you've got the eurozone Russia and Brazil which is in problems and people look at India and I think they'll see you actually very good prospects I'd like to take you back though having said that to your first point which was about quality because what we actually went to first was quantity and it's easy to jump to the quantity number I think the really interesting question is the quality issue and very often what we look at particularly when we're talking about infrastructure and investment is that we look at all the inputs and I think we need to look much more at the outputs in other words what is it that we're trying to get to in the two-year time frame and the key thing from the outside looking in is predictability and what people are looking for is a predictable path over time and that's a policy that doesn't keep changing well I think it actually involves a number of dimensions we've talked a bit about some of the obstacles and those are things like the land the regulatory issues the corruption issues but actually I think it's about having a predictable process over time which then enables you get to get to outputs and to get to result which is good for India good for the financiers and good for citizens and I think we need to be much more talking about the outputs and the results not just about the inputs and I think if we do that then you'll get that balance between if like government financing private sector financing and also international financing because actually the reality is that you need all three components and the truth is that it's not just India that's got an infrastructure gap lots of countries have got infrastructure gaps and so India is going to be in a competitive situation with other countries around the world and let me bring in Mr. Kojima on that if it is such a competitive environment and one of the things you said was that Mitsubishi is very cautious about investment then why would you choose India apart from the size of the market to do to invest here what what would offer you the confidence to bring your investment okay well say as I told you when Prime Minister Modi visits Japan and a very good conversation and meeting with our Prime Minister Abe and eventually our government is taking some play auctions and very frankly speaking I heard that recently a name is a Japan plus and a special team which supports and promotes investment from Japan to India this was established within the Indian Ministry of Commerce and Industry and this team consists of four Indian governmental officials and two Japanese experts from Japanese Ministry of Economy and Trade Industries therefore Japanese government and the Indian government are working closely together how to make this kind of investment and particularly in a infrastructure level but I was very happy both government are working closely together this is very good news for us then now I believe this is a very very good timing for Japan to start develop the investment in India and we are now also working very closely together because the government asks the business companies and our ideas we communicate with our government frankly speaking former government didn't contact you know business company but this Mr. Abe's new cabinet try to communicate with the business people and besides they are communicating with the Indian government this is very good for us that's interesting Ajit that that Mr. Kojima says it's good that the government government contact is there and in Japan too you now have a government that's communicating with business perhaps mirroring what's happening in India but there is also a view that if business is really to be unshackled the government there has to be less government not more so there is a continuing debate over what kind of of of government Mr. Modi will lead will it be a free market government or will it be a government enabled business friendly government and does that matter oh it does matter for example what big step that which Prime Minister Modi has taken is to dissolve the planning commission central planning was at the center of any socialistic economy where resources allocation would be decided by the state by doing away with that is clearly signal it will be a market economy when it comes to infrastructure government is willingly involved it is the rest of the things that can be privately done and even when you take the national highway authority barring owning the road and putting all these rules together and implementing it everything is done by private sector whether it's feasibility supervision construction operation etc so private sector has a role to play and it is left to play that but with infrastructure you will come in contact with government and it has to be a joint we are doing it when it comes to roads and other infrastructure those ministries alone are not responsible for some of the problems that confront or the obstacles that come from your company's bill it it has so many problems it comes in the way of managing and dealing with the spvs that are required to create concession your land acquisition bill fortunately in this case also is in the hands of the same minister but otherwise that would be another kind of challenge there are several such things that are happening the environment ministry that is not in the hands of the same transportation no so are you saying the environmental ministry and the transport ministry should be with the same person don't i'm not saying that i'm only trying to say to you that there are many other challenges that need to be solved for this ministry also to be successful that's is all i'm saying for example the very high rate of interest which we still don't understand why it should be so high the easy explanation of inclination inflation is not good enough but this has made investment quite unviable because the cost of capital has gone up so unless you bring this down substantially you are still going to have hesitation in bringing in investment so i'm pointing out the things that are beyond mr. garkeri's process as far as why are we still doing this painful task of wanting it yes the cake is being on one side and we believe that prime minister modi and mr. garkeri will do the job but i'll tell you a small story of mr. garkeri and me when he became the pwd minister of maharasha for the first time we were having a ci i conference in which he talked eloquently about building a big road system i said why don't you build five kilometers of a road that looks like an international road he was he took an affront to this and he complained this is not so but he did some good because he went ahead and built the bombing point expressway which we were probably a part of and built it on time so and the whole ceiling was finally conceived unfortunately he lost his government to complete building it but it was conceived and awarded approximately the same time they lost their job so there was that certain there is a history behind it there is a promise by a prime minister who has done things and that is why we do it but the fact is that beyond their own ministries also there are issues that need to be solved however i must request the minister the pain is quite severe please be a little quick about it please be quick he's already sent himself a two-year deadline but the interesting point raised by ajit is about about ministries that are not under your control there's a huge debate over what the policy of this government will be towards environmental clearances the environmental lobby certainly doesn't approve of these fast fast track clearances the microscopic minority in the country they are very much opposing for the developmental projects we need ecology and environment at the same time we need development we have to find out the way out between the two line exact equilibrium where we can just give justice to both the eccentric approach for anything it creates problem so at the same time we need good environment ecology is very important at the same time we need employment and development the problem is that the some laws which are passed by the parliament and i'm sorry to say i don't want to make more comments about it but lot of decision taken by the courts now the courts have taken a decision they want to run government they want to give directions and there are a lot of judges some judges called as green judges also and they are directly taking decision now as far as our constitution is concerned i'm very much responsible i don't want to attack anybody i respect judiciary but the same time in the constitution all things are clear the media the judiciary the executive wing and list doing all are responsible for the success story of the democracy am i hearing you say that the courts have been one of the obstacles to and one of the obstacle is media you are the people without any reason if suppose a small NGO started something you're just giving a breaking news and news and go on ahead and you stop the project but we but we are meant we are meant to be the watchdogs we are i know i will tell you just that is our job i will tell you the small example i construct that uh verly bandra ceiling project there was a lot of opposition he was the contractor in english media every time they write q fish marjange it will be problem for the fish one day i take all english generalist with me in the boat just taking their hat of their house because that was gutter drainage totally from mumbai so i just asked them a simple question is there is any fish no then why you write in the paper why you write every time that the this is a problem for savar sqa smara this is for smarak problem for america smarak and other thing lot of thing they write it now the bridge is over no problem is there and i know how much the people the media giving importance for that okay but come back to your point just a minute i heard this small media the media the soft target no no no i'm sitting as you can criticize the no no i'm i'm not at the point about the courts and the judges i'm not crescent media there are good people in media also they support me like you like you i'm supporting you but what i want to suggest you this is our country we want to develop our country we want development we want ecology and environment we should have an integrated approach we should understand the feeling behind it and at the same time all people if they are ready to cooperate with me they can do it but everyone says stop the work stop the work no one is coming to me that you complete the work so are you saying that are you you've said your opinion about the media but are you saying about the judiciary and the green judges that they have an obstructionist attitude no i'm i'm i'm exceeding their brief i'm exactly telling you the things if suppose anyone want to run the government the things are very clear he can contest the election become a minister and he can run the government but in the media house or as a judiciary they cannot take the charge of administration they can run the business i'm sorry to say in many cases the way in which the decision have been given by the courts it is difficult to execute i'm not i have respect for the judiciary i have respect for the judges but at the same time this country poor country needs development we want to eradication of the poverty is our mission we want to increase the employment potential we want a super infrastructure of international standards if suppose anyone is going to stop the work how we can going to solve the problem escalation cost is there interest cost is there the project cost is the delay is there after that the cost corrors of claims are with me it is only the delay because in the court i am as a nh i as a ministry i am facing i have to give him the corrors of claim it is from the public money so this is we need a integrated approach supporting from all the people we want to protect the environment ecology at the same time we want development and we need support from media also and the judiciary and which is going to haul us all up for contempt of court okay mark spellman yes the integration point because i think that's that's really important question there before you respond you spoke about predictability the need for predictability yeah there could be certain things that are outside of a government's jurisdiction for example what the courts of a country decide you know it may not be in the control of within Gadkari as minister to to actually question that beyond a point how do you then guarantee predictability well there's always going to be certain uncontrollable events i think what we're saying is that what one's trying to look at is what are the controllable sort of parameters night i like this point about integration because i think it's uh it's hugely important and one of the challenges i think here is language and it seems to me that the start point is trying to work out how do you get a win-win and a win-win means actually that the politicians the business and the finance community can actually talk in same ways about a project and i'm actually married to a politician so my wife is a member of parliament in the uk so i actually understand a little bit of the challenges about how politicians speak and how business speaks and i think that one of the reasons we have difficulties is because very often the politicians express what they want in very different terms from what the business community and it seems to me that if we're truly talking about integration going forward the first thing that we need to do is have a common agenda about the things that we can control and we're beginning to get into those sorts of discussions about okay we can isolate out where some of the problems are we know that regulatory and environmental issues are particular problems i don't think it matters whether it takes two weeks two months or even two years to address them but as long as that we have a predictable time frame for how long it takes to address those and i think to pick up on on adjunct's point we we also need to know what the escalation processes are through them but the critical thing i think we need is we need clarity in the process i suspect there's a capacity issue and a skills issue and i think we need more tools to be able to really manage to best practice around large-scale what are very complex infrastructure projects okay i'm opening this up for questions in just a moment briefly from you agit where is that line between an integrated you know an integrated approach on one side that the minister speaks about and allegations of crony capitalism and business being too close to government which which is something that has dogged the previous government in one controversy after the other see as long as the process of giving out contracts concessions is is fair and transparent and open which quite a bit of it is there are areas where it wasn't and that is where the questioning has really begun so many contracts of nha have been given out over the years there's never been a question of an unfair gain given to any contractor so this is one area second is i think we are seeing crime in every little corner every two minutes i think this is also become a bit excessive but it is important to understand that all these people have to work together in order to deliver the infrastructure that you're building you can't you can't and then you cannot stop things in the middle halfway across your stop so many projects this has consequences cost consequences pain jobs are lost so many things are gone so i think there's been a certain element of irresponsibility arbitrariness in which the previous government did govern it you know environment projects will stop for nothing else major for jurisdiction not because there's an environment violation and these are things that have had an impact on the people where they feel that all this happens is a part of a of a thing and now we need to therefore understand that this has to happen if we start holding our ministers our companies everybody responsible for making sure they deliver what they are expected to deliver on time you will get a lot more confidence in the business okay we have a few minutes for for for questions you've heard the minister setting a number of deadlines for himself and for his government what do any of you think are the main hurdles what are some of the things that concern you we haven't spoken yet about smart cities and i want to talk a little bit about that but i'm seeing a hand going up here please with your question thanks my name is shumat mazumdar i have a question for the minister you've talked about 30 kilometers in two years very encouraged but the fact remains that you talked about how many kilometers have been allocated now and how much has been cancelled so there's really a negative growth over there you cancelled more than you allocated the issue of land still remains a problem with certain states while i can see bjp is expanding their states that they control but there are still some states which are not controlled by bjp so when can we start seeing traction we we're taking 30 kilometers in two years for granted now when do we start seeing some traction ajit has talked about some of the problems that exists in in the business so i mean would you like to give us some time frame as to be can start seeing traction by someone so time or whatever after our government we have given work order of 3419 kilometers in four months and our target is up to the march is 8500 kilometers the total kilometer length which is in the disputes we are facing the problems it is already 2384 kilometer have been cleared the work have been started 4087 kilometer the project are cancelled that i called it as a golden check hand and the project still there are the problems we are facing is of 1800 corals ongoing projects cannot be reviewed it's very difficult for me to find out the way out that is of 250 kilometers problems are there i'm not talking this is my target i'm trying my level best to maintain that target i'm confident i don't know what it happens in future but today we have already prime minister appointed a committee under my chair machine with infrastructure and environment ministry aviation ministry railway ministry we are taking monthly meetings and review and the even environment ministry railway ministry they are cooperating the things are changing problems are there it's not a very easy easy job it is a very difficult task but i always say that there are some people who convert problems into opportunities and there are some people who convert opportunities into the problems so let us believe me we will try our level best to convert these all problems into opportunities and let give me a good wishes for that we are wishes and your cooperation i can be succeed to 30 kilometers per day after two years this is what we're looking for thank you okay before i before i take the next question and if anyone has a question please raise your hand so i can catch your eye uh mr kojima this you know the the stock of smart cities of creating smart cities how do you how do you see this uh this proclamation as it were by the modigap i think uh yeah 100 cities as a smart city that is a plan right now and uh 100 cities not sufficient you know 100 cities a good number good number okay and uh yeah not sufficient but and the first important thing is a symbolic city model of the smart cities that's very important and maybe a city by city location by location the image is different and however and even in japan this kind of thing is very very important and for the future therefore in i say india this smart city plan and i was very much impressed this ideas and everybody who living those areas try to make a very good city that kind of effort is very important for the local place and therefore this smart city is a project is a very very important project for india and 100 this number is a good right now and the gradually increasing mr kakri when especially economic zones were created they were created with within a sense of creating business enclaves uh for industry for manufacturing but those ran into many many controversies now if we could not get sz of the ground can we really get smart cities off the ground you are correct question to a wrong person now you will say ask the previous government i am not related with the ministry but i will assure you one thing that this is also the dream project of our prime minister and we are planning for that and there are a lot of plan which prime minister has his own vision about it and what he suggests there are a lot of good things are there and in due course of time uh i feel that we will accelerate the process of forming this new smart city and definitely the scenario will be changed okay mark last thoughts i'm just going to start taking last comments remember if you have a question you have a few more minutes to get your question in what has been you know positive in terms of signaling from the new government and what still remains a gray area well if i just pick up on the smart cities i think this whole notion of a development corridor which becomes a magnet for attracting investment for attracting particularly sort of manufacturing and using that as an economic locomotive effect i think is very powerful i think the really interesting question is what do you truly mean by smart because actually i'm not sure there's a one size fits all in terms of cities and when you really talk about smart what you're really talking about is the power of information to be able to i think both not only make the city work effectively but also make it work well for citizens so i think there's a work to be done about what truly means means smart means but no i i think the fundamental issue here is that what we have is i think a lot of potential going forward you need financial stability and i think that the government is essentially working very hard to create that through reducing deficits reducing inflation that then becomes the vehicle for i think um stimulating both physical infrastructure but also critically sort of economic output and i think the really interesting question i think internationally is not just what happens within india but how india also becomes increasingly a vehicle internationally and how if you like i always look at emerging market multinationals and the role that they're increasingly playing and i think indian multinational companies will have a role not only internally but increasingly looking outside for example into the middle east but also into africa as well there is been no real definition of smart cities and just as well because you need to create this definition it it must be widespread because it would differ from city to city all it means one of the most important signals this has been given is for 65 years we have romanticized the village that that is the only way forward and we ignored the cities and said that there were kinds of necessary evils we have now recognized that the city is important the town is important and that it is necessary and it is good and if we have to create create new jobs about 300 million in the next 20 years of these are children that are born today then we will have to create these urban centers where these jobs will get created and please understand the magnitude united states which is the largest economy in the world has 135 million jobs so when you talk of creating 300 million new jobs you're talking about two american sized economies it's not simple without urbanization it's not possible and smartness of the city makes it more livable better services to people and therefore can actually be more productive and it signals that there is a better place to live and i think this conversation that has started the ogre's well for india because it has brought the city and the center of its development so stop romanticizing the villages you can't continue to do so there are some lovely songs and folk songs okay i'm seeing some hands go up we'll take a question here and then there we can get a mic please here on the front row we can just get a mic in the front row please innovation is created in cities and town education is created in cities and town just pollution also is created exactly i'm glad you said that okay go ahead with your question please yeah so my name is vikram gandhi and one of the things i do is represent advise a lot of pension plans around the world and as you know pension plans are one of the largest investors in infrastructure around the world and if you talk to them and as they look at opportunities this week for the minister and agit you had kind of referred to this as well or mr spellman the cost of capital in india is just too high so when even if you solve all the problems of you know good contracts land acquisition etc when a foreign investor looks at investing in india you end up with requiring hurdle rates in the mid to high teens of the low 20s which actually in a lot of cases even with everything working will not attract the kind of capital that is required given given the objectives i would just like to get comments on the on from the panel as to as you see this as to how do you think the cost of capital india should come down i mean obviously like you said there's inflation but they've got to be other things too which drive everything down and and what what is the government this is one of the things which cuts across not just the finance ministry but a lot of ministries as to how how are you thinking about that issue he's absolutely correct i am already on the job three because i have already written later to finance minister and prime minister you've written a letter already saying what same word and in three four days i have a meeting with the concerning secretaries also and he's absolutely correct i will pursue this matter it can be very useful for us question here yes actually it's pretty similar so i think it's finance you know we needed a financier on this panel because uh so i'm from yes institute yes bank so there's a lot of innovation going on in financing infrastructure globally there's project bonds coming up so we are i think at a stage where india could leapfrog on to such new financing mechanisms so i was just hoping uh you would realize that while india runs a lot of it also our professionals our people are running a lot of finance globally so hopefully we can have a forum where we could come and you know interact with government industry to bring the newest ideas to the table so especially financing projects okay mark well i was just going to respond to that in the sense that i think it's important that we don't just think about in terms of uh infrastructure bonds i think you can also look at it in terms of social impact bonds because one of the things that i'm beginning to see is for example that um in some of the infrastructure projects you can then actually sort of employ unemployed people in those completed infrastructure projects and actually the way that social entrepreneurs are able to bring unemployed people in and then help them into jobs in those infrastructure projects that have been built they can do that cheaper and more effectively than the government can do on welfare that creates the sort of the upside benefits for social welfare and social impact bonds so i think it's very important that we look not only at new innovative financing mechanisms for infrastructure in terms of the physical assets but i think there's also some very interesting mechanisms for the human capital side of things and actually the right answer is that we need both working together Mr. Gadkari i wanted to ask you something we haven't spoken about about sanitation we talk so much about infrastructure we talk about smart cities but we're a country where we have vast numbers of our population having to defecate and open the prime minister has committed to changing this but isn't this the biggest infrastructure change needed before roads and airports and big capital and pension plans where are the toilets you're absolutely it's a very important issue i am also i mean responsible for rural development yes that's why i asked you and now the country needs the policy that conversion of waste into wealth in my own city in nakpur our sewage water we are sailing to the electricity board by getting 18 crore rupees royalty from it we can make waste plastic from crude petrol we can make pallets from the west and there are a lot of things are there even in ganga we have to have a disposal of 15 000 ml d of waste water liquid waste so definitely it is one of the important sector where we have to concentrate on it the sanitation the toilet the cleanliness is very important and a lot of potential we have to work too much for that sector we are serious about it it will take some time for plan even for this toilets and other thing we have already appointed a committee under the chairmanship of Dr. Mashilkar for selecting the technology for drinking water and sanitation so we need a good technology but cost effective because the cost is very important in the poor area in the rural sector the cost of the toilet is very important we cannot do that much cost so if the number will be the number will be more but you have to reduce the cost that is one of the constraint even for drinking water 17 000 villages we are facing the problem of arsenic and fluorides the lot of serious problems are there and this is a sector where we want to more concentrate for that our prime minister vision is for he has got some vision about it and is one of the sector which is neglected and you are absolutely correct we will concentrate on that and from the urban ministry they are giving the grants to all of these projects from JNRM and we will make some good new schemes and by which we will achieve that goal okay just last comments from both of you were at the end of time Mr. Kojima one thing you'd like to see change in India that would give investors more confidence and you know any one area that you would particularly like to see traction and talking about the infrastructure yes and say I was checking firstly electric power water railway roads and the seaports and the airports and all those things is very important but I feel and electric power is very very important and maybe the Indian can use the coal for the electric power of course natural gas and other issues but the coal and you can make by yourselves a plenty of coal and in Japan how to reduce the CO2 from the coal this technology is anyhow now developing in Japan a lot and therefore electric power is very very important and renewable energy also very important but the wind power or geothermal power and solar power solar panel but it's very hard and say from the course viewpoint and this power capacity is not so good okay I have just a minute left I say last question and then Ajit you can maybe take that on question please here in the front row can we get a mic this is Sanjeev Rai from Billinovators I have a question around smart cities why are we not able to define smart cities is a question that you know it came across I was in a panel on smart cities as well and there was a lot of confusion about how to define it while some of the consensus that comes to is you know can we have a rule for example a 10 20 30 40 kind of a rule where it should be minimum 10 percent more livable 20 percent more sustainable 30 percent better governance and 40 percent more employment okay let the minister answer that and then I'll give the last word to Mr Gulabchand why can't we define it do we need a numerical or a statistical or an empirical definition like has been offered here his question is absolutely correct but I'm not concerned with the ministry what do you think I will I will I will give your feelings to the concerning minister that ministry should also be moist Ajit very quickly you said it's okay to not define the smart city here you have a kind of counter view we have to end I think I think because we have it has to evolve if you've got a coastal city the smartness that it would need in order to be an effective city and a more productive city and the livable city would be very different from a chemical engineering oriented where factories are there so I think let it evolve otherwise you'll get a governmental definition and that you'll not get no innovation in it at the same time we have to get going and I think it's very important that India while what is to be done is broadly known there are many white papers and what can be done I don't think there is a dearth of knowing what is to be done and our prime minister is full of clear ideas of where to go what we want is some speed now some movement just get going you know remove the debris on the road and move on okay and be very bold about it there's too much diffidence in about it be bold as girthi the philosopher said boldness has has genius power and magic in it well we'll leave it there the ministers promised that he will let us measure some of his commitments in two years from now so that's not so far away thank you very much a round of applause for our panel today and thank you