 Hello, my name is Alicia Walker and I am calling this meeting to order as co-chair. Governor Baker's extension of the March 12th order suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law allows us to hold this virtual meeting of the working group. Given that we have a quorum present, I am calling the July 1, 2021 meeting of the community safety working group to order at 531pm. I will call upon each member of the working group by name. At that time, they should unmute their mic and say present. This will indicate that they can hear me and we can hear them. Please remember to mute your mic after saying present. Ms. Deborah Ferrera. Present. Ms. Pat Anonabaku. Present. Mr. Darius Cage. Present. Mr. Russ Vernon Jones. Present. I want to take a couple of minutes to review the agenda. We will first hear any public comment that members of the public want to provide to the working group. We will not respond to your comments, but we'll listen to your comments carefully. We will then hear comments from members who may have something to report for this meeting. We have designated members of the working group. We will now move on to the last part of our meeting to see if we have any follow-up from last meeting of things to go over. So I just want to take a brief minute to go over public comment if we have anyone looking to public comment at this time. I have to stop the share to go in and see. It doesn't appear that anyone has their hand raised at this time. So I want to do a quick review of the agenda today for our on our agenda. We have the recommended agenda items for Mr. Vernon Jones. Can you see the agenda? Yes. Thank you. I would like to take a quick minute for members reports before going into the agenda. So this is a time for members to update us on any work that they're doing or any events that are coming up. Does anybody have anything that they would like to share? Can you see me? Yes. Sorry. Miss Pat. So let's see. So on the traffic stop. I would like to just take a quick minute for members reports before going into the agenda. So this is a time for members to update us on any work that they're doing or any events that are coming up. Does anybody have anything that they would like to share? Yes. So on the traffic stop project, Brianna and myself, we're still working on it. We're hoping to get that ready for you, for you to look at as a draft next week meeting. And in terms of the standing committee, we're still myself and Alicia was still researching and working on that. So hopefully by next week, you guys will be able to get something and give us input. Thank you. Ms. Owen. So I wanted to report a couple of things. To follow up, I know Miss Pat brought up a meeting the time that we met in person. There was a small group of people who are interested to meet to give some feedback on the implementation of Cress. Those people were Lauren Mills, Lev Ezra from the survival center in Shawnee. I wanted to report back to the group, some of the notes that I took from the meeting and some concerns from the community. And some of them are things that I didn't think about. So I'm glad that I attended that meeting. So one thing that Lauren Mills brought to my attention was what work are we doing the CSWG to bridge the bridge the gap and make sure the community trust Cress. She was wondering how long our group was going to be extended as that might be a way to help the community trust the program. And I think that Lev also offered ways that the survival center may be able to help. Another thing that she brought up to was the dispatchers for the program, because the resolution and the motion put forward by the town council includes the number of responders but it doesn't say anything about the dispatchers. So from the perspective of Lauren Mills and the dialogue that we were having, there was an emphasis on how important it is that 911 calls can access Cress but also that we have a separate number and that we don't compromise that. So it was really helpful to meet with her in that regard. Thank you, Ms. Ellen. Sorry, did you have other things that you wanted to share. Yeah. Okay, I will let you finish. I feel like I have a lot. Also, I wanted to let the group know that Thomas Grossman from the board of directors of the boys and girls club wanted to follow up with the community safety working group to see if we were interested in having a conversation with the board of directors and other organizations but I think groups that serve young people. I wasn't sure where we stood with our successor group and what the next group is going to do to start doing the work for the Youth Empowerment Center and the Cultural Center. So I was wondering if group members were interested in that conversation, or if not, if maybe that's something we have our successor group do. Ms. Pat. Okay, so a couple of things. One is that the town manager, the town council did not mention Youth Empowerment Center program that we have proposed. And I'm not sure what is it that we'll be discussing with boys and girls club board. Because at this point, it's up in the air. So I'm not clear as to why we're going to be meeting with them. I'm not necessarily opposed to it. I also did some research a little bit on our town website and was looking at social services, grant funding that the town gives so different programs. What is that boys and girls club sometimes even when they submit grants, they don't get it. So, if the town is not even supportive of this group, I'm not sure, you know, what is it that CSWG can do to work with this board. I'm not clear. I think Ms. Ferrer had her hand up and then Mr. Vernon Jones. In terms of this specific question. I think probably in terms of prioritizing, I would rather leave that to the successor group, I guess, if we're not going to be the ones that are going to be kind of following up with it. Because, you know, I think in terms of priorities for me anyway would be the second part of the charge, and obviously getting the consultants on board to work for the second part of the charge. So anyway, that would be my kind of feedback on it. You know, I think it would be an important conversation to have, but I think later in the process because whoever's going to be kind of putting the pressure to make sure those other recommendations, you know, come to fruition would have to be the one to kind of take those follow-up steps. Thank you, Ms. Ferrer. Mr. Vernon Jones. Deborah said what I was going to say I completely agree. Okay, thank you. I just wanted to make an agreement with that Brianna if that I think it would be okay to if we decide that that's an important thing to have happen that we can leave that to the successor group. Just because we're not we're not so far along and figuring those things out right now. And sorry I also want to leave space for you to continue your members report if you have additional things to say. I can definitely let Thomas cross or Tom Crossman know that. I think that'll be really helpful. I also wanted to report to the group that Alicia and I did meet with her roads over the last week, and we included the feedback that he gave us through our conversation in the packet. And he brought to light some really interesting questions around the crest budget in regards to where the funding was coming from. And he also included meeting guidelines because I think he was hurt by what we said at one of our prior meetings, because his personality was attacked rather than his ideas. I don't necessarily think his. His comments were coming from a malicious place, but I did communicate with him along with Miss Walker that the timeline that he sent them in and the way he included counselors made it feel like that. So I wanted to report to the group that and I wanted to be transparent just because I think that going forward it's really important that members of the community aren't discouraged to send us stuff and reach out to us and be a part of our work. And several council members were discouraged by the way that we talked to him talked about his comments and recommendations during our prior meeting. Miss Ferrer and then miss Pat. Yeah, I mean, I think. I mean, he outreached me before I left, you know, sending an email saying that he wanted to talk to me, and I've been transparent before that urban I have been friends and, and, you know, previously and everything. So I was I was in the middle of kind of getting ready for the strip so I didn't have any chance to even respond to him but I do plan to, when I come back have a conversation with him. So for me, I think the issue and I think I made it very clear, you know, when I discussed it was the timing of everything right everyone has a right to the opinion. You know, not everyone has to agree with what we're saying and what the recommendations that we made or anything, but it was the timing the timing was very. It was problematic, you know, and both timings of, of, you know, what he sent out the first one being right the night before we had to present to the finance committee. That was not okay and then we had to take the time instead of you all especially you all the chairs, having to prepare for it that we all have to take time I had to take time to like look at what we're going to respond to him and so on so forth that was not okay. So, for me, again, it wasn't the opinion, everyone has a right to the opinion, it's the timing and the fact that hey, why don't you come and talk to us at least touch base with us first being that we're a majority by group. You know, it would have been very respectful to have done that, and then, you know, done whatever you had to do in terms of your opinions and so on so forth. Because I just thought that that was very problematic and, you know, and just really kind of made our, our, you know, the work that we were doing, the zillion times more difficult, and also being that he is a black man in the community he's someone that is very much respected in the community, being that he's been in politics and stuff that the timing was not good. So, what I wanted to say is that I do not have any regrets about what I said that day, and I can only speak for myself. All I did was to raise concerns with regarding the content of his letter. I never attacked his personality, I don't think anybody did, but we did discuss our displeasure about the content, because it was divisive. As a prominent, you know, black man in this town. So, that's what I wanted to, you know, say, I, I'll do it all over again. Our group supposed to be in a bound by open meeting law how else can we discuss issues in our meeting we're not allowed to have a private meeting, you know, behind closed door or, you know, outside, you know, public realm. So, this is opportunity for us to discuss issues that pertain to CSWG. I did not believe that we attacked, you know, his personality. We discussed our displeasure again I'm repeating myself about, you know, the content of his email which I thought was not helpful. Especially the fact that what we're trying to do in this group is to benefit BIPOC community, which he is also a member. And I did address the same thing with black group through my email that I sent to, you know, our community black community as well. So I just wanted to elaborate a little bit more Brianna sorry if you have anything else before you continue, just to say that Brianna and I were able to meet with Mr. Rhodes. And so I think we were, we were able to come to some sort of understanding on that ground, in terms of the way that he received the conversation that we had, and in terms of the way that we received his email. I do think we came to like a ground of understanding, not necessarily agreement but understanding and so I think I feel actually really a lot better about having that conversation because we didn't have an opportunity to interact with him we did only receive the email and so it was just a way to hear about his thinking. In a more personal way and I think it was really helpful for me, and he actually did give us some specific feedback. Or questions that may be helpful to, to speak with the town manager about that I was hoping to get to at some point today I don't know if right this minute is the appropriate time. But just that the conversation we did have with with Mr Rhodes was was quite interesting and informative. And Brianna, Miss Freira. Sorry, I mean I don't want to belabor the point. But, yeah, I mean I think, I think the part of it is, is your right I mean, you know, my biggest issue is like why didn't you do that from the beginning right you know you don't just send out, you know, all of those kind of statements he made in those emails especially the first one just don't send it out to the town manager and key council members the night before the finance committee when the budget is going to be decided. You know, without talking to any of us, you know, especially since he knew he knows me, I'm on the on the committee he knows me been friends for many years, why wouldn't you approach me and talk to me. You know, I have a big issue with that I'm sorry and I'm not and that's just passed that I'm not going to take that back. I'm going to take back anything that I said in regards to it, because that was very divisive that was very problematic, and it really made our job a lot more difficult. I mean, well, majority BIPOC group dealing with reforming and creating a whole new process of recommendations dealing with the police the police has been one of the biggest departments that have been oppressing BIPOC people for centuries. And so, you know, that that was just very, very difficult. I appreciate the fact that now he's come and talk to us but I wish it had happened before. You know, because it just made life very difficult. I was very disappointed. Thank you, Miss Farera. Mr. Vernon Jones. I just want to express my appreciation, Alisha and Breonna to you and to Irv for getting together and seeking to come to some understanding, even however great the disagreements may be. And I think we, you know, in public life we get to have disagreements we get to have major disagreements but I appreciate you're having the dialogue and I think that was a good step. Thank you, Mr. Vernon Jones. And then I want to hand the floor back over to Breonna. I'm not sure if you were finished with your members report. That's all I have. Okay, thank you, Breonna. Does anybody else have anything they would like to share with the group Miss Farera. And as you all know, obviously I wasn't able to do kind of a lot of work being that I'm in Cape Verde Islands right now, but I did want to bring up one thing that I know and I have to kind of read up more on it. But as you all know, there was the in Massachusetts, the act relative to justice equity and accountability and law enforcement, the Commonwealth, which is something I think we want to look at because it kind of deals with chapter 253. You know, in the federal register, I mean in the Massachusetts register that kind of deals with a lot of kind of, you know, use of force and everything. In terms of reforming the police in Massachusetts I think we want to take a look at that especially for the second part of charge, but I don't have all the specifics once I have more obviously I think it should, we should weave it into the second part. Thank you Miss Farera. Mr. Vernon Jones and then Miss Owen. Yeah, I don't have a lot of detail about this but I know that there were some things proposed for that state bill that did not get in the final bill. And as we look into it I think it'd be important for us to find out what were the recommended provisions that did not get approved in that bill and are they ones that we might want to recommend or get approved locally. Thank you Mr. Vernon Jones Miss Owen. The community members suggested that we take a look at the Brattleboro Vermont community safety report that they did their table of contents includes things like a commitment to anti racism all the way to community calls for action intentions and readiness between the police and the community. It's very similar to the work that we're doing and I'm going to take a look at it and try to summarize key points to bring back to the group next week. Thank you Miss Owen. Are there any other members who would like to share something at this time for our members report? Okay, so the first thing that we have on the agenda for today is the recommended agenda items from Mr. Vernon Jones that are attached in the packet below. I know we sort of have already looked at a few of these things and so this is just a time to briefly come back to them if there's anything we didn't get to cover last week. And I absolutely would like to take this time to double back to the first thing on the list which is the request for an extension. Take the document. I do not. I think I just see a desktop. It says screen to do you see it now? Yes. Okay. Thank you. So yes, I would like to double back to, to number one on the agenda or on the proposed agenda items in our request for an extension. And Mr. Backelman was available is available and is here at today's meeting. So I was hoping to take this time to engage in further discussion regarding our request for an extension or the status of that. And Miss Owen, I'm sorry, are you raising your hand? I'll go after Mr. Backelman. Okay. So I just wanted to take this time to engage with Mr. Backelman to see if there's an update as to our request for an extension. So thank you. Yeah, so I, I would like to know more. I missed the second half of your meeting last week, which I apologize for. I think it was last week, whichever one. So, and I think I tried to get up to speed on. I didn't watch it actually, but I looked at notes. So if I can understand more like what that includes. And because I'd like to have a conversation about. A consultant is going to be helpful to get to the end zone or not. And I, and I under. And so the consultant is one piece and then, but I also do recognize the time and the time constraints on where we are. And if I could help, if you could help me understand a little bit more where you are in terms of what's the work that needs to be done. It seems like where you've identified that where you want to put your energy. It's going to take more than two months. So if I could understand that a little bit more that'd be helpful. Yes, I would like to give other members of the group an opportunity to also answer that question. But I just wanted to beforehand, just. In my opinion, or the way that I'm doing this, the need for a consultant and the need for an extension are two separate things. And so while I think they're both true that we have a need for a consultant. And a need for an extension that even if one were to determine. That we didn't need one that the other one is still. They're both needs at this time and not really dependent upon each other. If that makes sense. Great. Yeah. And. I also am just, I think I. For me to answer that question, I would need more specifics as to what exact information is needed in order to determine. If we would be like per se eligible for an extension, because I think we've been very vocally clear about what things we would like to research. That we would need somebody with a specific set of expertise in order to thoroughly look into these things and to provide quality recommendations. So that those are just like some very short brief reasons why we would need a consultant and an extension. And so I'm just wondering like what specifics do you need to know in order to make that decision. Yeah, so like, let's start with resident oversight board. I think the things I had noted that you have looked at, or you've identified as your sort of working topics and correct me if I'm missing any. Was the resident oversight board traffic control community policing and successor body or those are the key. Did I miss any miss on. I think those are the topics that we agreed last week that we could get started on now doing individual research. But there are other things that we would need help from consultants with like the policies and procedures and the legal aspects of that in the PD. Traffic control community policing, and to start to take a look at the resident oversight board was something that we could do now is what I was under the impression of. Thank you miss on Mr Vernon Jones. Oh, I confess to being very puzzled by this conversation. My recollection is Paul you were with us in the last meeting when we went through the draft of the what we had titled originally as an IFB. And we did not delete anything from that so as far as I'm concerned everything on there is something that we have interest in pursuing ourselves. And I thought we had talked about you're developing a and RFB that would include those items, plus whatever other items you thought might be relevant further down the road. Thank you Mr Vernon Jones I wasn't sure if that was like a question directed at Mr Bachman that you wanted to wait for an answer, or if I should move to the next comment for now. Consider it a statement. Mr Vernon Jones miss for Aaron. Yeah, and I guess I just want to back up what Mr Vernon Jones said because Miss Owen was very kind to kind of send me a brief summary of what you all had discussed last week. So for me, you know time is of the essence right and we've been saying that for these last couple weeks and Mr Bachman. And from what I my understanding is that you all discuss that and turn it into this RFB so Mr Bachman I don't understand why you're asking this those questions again. My, my, my thing for you is, you know, get that in or let us know what needs to happen so we can get the consulting and what, and what we need to know as as Miss Walker said, two separate things the consultant needs to be in because we have all that work to do. And we need an extension. You see what I'm saying I mean those are the things that that that we're asking about. But I don't understand why you're still asking questions about what do we need help with. I think last week, they were very detailed in terms of what we need help with. Thank you miss Farera. I'm, I'm in agreement with the members who have already spoken and I'm wondering, Mr Bachman if it's possible to be like as specific as possible and what information you would need from us in order to make that decision. Yeah, I think it's, it would be helpful for me to go through it one by one. So, at least because work is already being done, right on some of these topics. And are we looking at a resident oversight board. And, you know, from my experience with the group last time is you did the bulk of the work and came up with the recommendations on your own, which were very community specific and resonated with the broader community. So, and, and, and it was informed by the process, of course, of the consultants but you know I felt like. So I guess what I would like to know, not what I like to know, I want to, I am like what I've said in the past is that I really want to move on a few of these things as we take them on and so and then there's a lot of bigger topics that we have to continue to work on. The resident oversight board is the one that sort of foremost because it's the one that's been articulated. And, and so what do we need to get that group up and running, and I don't think we need a consultant to do that I think we can get the charge written and start to recruit and get that project going. Relatively quickly and it doesn't have to wait to the end of your term either you can develop develop that in advance and I think it seems like I've from the notes I've seen it looks like you're fairly well along and what looking at what that group looks like. So if we stay on that one topic is that where we are on that. For me I'm thinking consultants are going to be so important for the development of the resident oversight board, because we need to know more about the policies procedures and trainings that need to change but we also need to know more about the day today and all of the members on this group are all working. We don't have time to ride around in the back of the cop cruiser and see what day to day life is like, and I think that the report that we finish now is critical for the resident oversight board, we can't just put them together with no knowledge on the work that we've done and changes that need to happen. And I know that there's also legal implications and barriers to the reforms that we may make into actually happening, which I think a consulted group would be really helpful to help us with. And I agree with Miss Owen and I also just wanted to add something that you actually brought to us Mr Bachman as a really interesting suggestion, transferring this to an RFB rather than an IFB because the amount of work that would, would require someone with expertise for the second charge is a lot greater than that of the first part of our charge, and that this is going to be a really a really timely investment and that their work the work of the consultant may extend beyond what our charge is, especially if we don't receive an extension. So that was the sort of the things that were the conversation happening around changing this from an IFB to an RFP and so I think all of those things still remain true in that we will need the support in order to make those recommendations and I believe it's imperative for those recommendations to be in place before the implementation of the resident oversight board, so that they can monitor those things as substantial change and so that they can monitor the complaint process and what good is a complaint process if we haven't even changed the things that were already being brought out in the first place. And so just a way for them to sort of monitor the progress on those things. And that they also as a group will most likely need to utilize the work of a consultant or an investigator, or other another group separate from themselves with certain expertise in order to carry out their charge. I think that those are things that we like agree on. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we agreed on those things. And then one other thing, like I agree with the urgency of creating the resident oversight board and I believe it's urgent to have this happen as quickly as possible. But something that I thought about after last meeting that's a little bit confusing to me is what is the rush in implementing this when we haven't even included them in this fiscal budget so there is no money to pay them to set them up or for them to even be able to do anything. So why not give us the time to figure this out and to set it up so that we can get it in place so that they can, because if we hire a consultant that that is most likely going to take up a lot of the money that was set aside for this kind of work. So I'm not sure how we would find funding for the consultant team and for the stipends of the people on the resident oversight board. There are things that really need to be worked out before creating the resident oversight board. Ms. for I believe I saw your hand up first. So, you know, I guess I'm sounded like a broken record from like two weeks ago and I guess, you know, and that last week you all talked to Mr. Bachman to Mr. Bachman. You know, I know that your interest is the resident oversight board. I've heard that I've heard that over and over again, but there is a lot more besides just the resident oversight board. And you're giving us only a small amount of time because you don't want to extend the work that we're doing. Therefore, it's even more critical and more crucial for the consultants to be on board as quickly as possible. So I'm not understanding why that we're having this kind of, you know, misunderstanding. I know that for you, you just want us to focus on the resident oversight board and that's that. No, that's not the only thing. And, and the group has even in terms of last week from my understanding is that they're even willing to take on, you know, some other research of some of the other areas that we think our priorities, because you're only giving us a small amount of time. So we're having to work double time in order to get things done because you're being very, you know, you know, not, not wanting to work with us about the extension of the time. So my thing for you and I need to ask you like, you know, just straight up like, you know why don't you want to give us a consultant group we already showed you all of the information all of the work that needs to be done and it's not just a resident oversight board. You, you gave a charge that was very expansive I'm sorry that's was your charge, and I am taking that charge to heart, and that's a very serious charge. So, stop just focusing on the resident oversight board. It's not just that, and that has a lot of work so to be done as all the other members never talked about. That has a lot of work and everything else on there has a lot of work to be done. So what is going on, please, please just be straight and and and let us know what we need to do so so we can get this done. So I will. I, what I'm what I feel is happening is we are making substantial changes in our operations, which is really important. The Crest program is a big, big, big, big project when I was on a call today with Albuquerque, which I think is maybe our most likely model because it's a separate standalone it's not the cahoots model it's a different model. And they and I'll share that link to you with for you. But they talked about the implementation and the amount of work they put into it and I think that is, it's, it's, it's challenging and daunting and achievable and the results are are going to prove out to be good. So, we're where we need to move the Crest program forward. We need to move the, again, this, this is how I envision the charge and, you know, the charge was written to really focus on the alternative responder and a resident oversight board. And there were other things in there, but it was very explicit about those are the two major things. And so that's why I'm really focused. Yes, why am I focused on resident oversight board, because I think that's the biggest structural change that we can implement to help move forward on making the changes. And I also believe that, you know, this is a what we've learned through this process is that this is an ongoing multi year effort. So a successor group, whatever that looks like needs to be put into place. And I think it's unrealistic to think that we will be able to go through all the police policies. In a short period of time, I think that that there are so many pieces to the puzzle on those things that that's got to be the successor groups. If that's what they'll say, or the resident oversight board whichever group that lands with, I think we need to understand what groups where that lands. I think that that's going to be the work of the permanent group, because they have to take ownership of that. And that's how I'm seeing this because I think this is, we need to set up systems and structures for ongoing continuity of change. And I know that you have put a tremendous amount of work in it and personal and emotional effort. And I do I, but I see this as being a, and I know you all do too, a long term effort and so that's how I am envisioning that and so just. So that's that's where that's where that's where I am and so that's why this why this discussion is important for me to understand better and I hope you understand what I'm thinking about as well. Miss Pat. So I don't want to repeat what you all have said. But what I want to say is that this group is so unique in the sense that we're a majority biker folks and I can speak for myself. The path a, I'm not saying that it was easy to do, but my experience in doing my outreach and people reaching out to me, they had a lot to say they have a lot of suggestion to make. The path be that is a lot of anticipation about what we're going to come up with reforming the police. It's sort of like a little bit technical, and I'm not comfortable doing this, the path be without having consultants, you know help us. I'm an employer, and some of what we're dealing with will be employment long with employee policies and procedures and I don't want us to rush something or submit something that is have has that I don't I don't operate like that. I don't know what the rush is, and I don't want to repeat what other people have said, there is no budget attached to this as to rush, please let us do this very well. I know we've taken on some of the topics for us to work on, even when we work, work on them, I would very much like consulting firm to look over what we did discuss so that if we have additional question. There's a lot involving path be, and I would like us to do it very well. Mr. Buckman, I know you have your own agenda of press program and oversight board. Are you listening to buy for community, the people that this program will benefit the most. We're telling you that this is what we're hearing from our people. I want to know what the police reform will be handing it over to the next successor. I don't know how I feel about that. I respectfully disagree with you in that regard. Miss Ellen. I just want to echo it with what Miss Pat has said and I hear you let that's what you want but you, you hired all of us you pointed all of us to advise you and we're telling you know. And also I just think back to what Miss Pat said a lot of community members are coming to us we're not just making these decisions based off of our own thoughts we're, we're bringing other community voices into our decisions for all of this and I think it's really important that our groups stay together while Chris even gets up and running because we're the people that developed the program. And the community voices community people from the community engaged in this work through us. So I don't see what the rush to disband us is. Thank you miss Ellen Mr Vernon Jones. I certainly agree with what Deborah and others have said about the full charge the importance of it and our engagement with it. With regard to the resident oversight board. Yes, we will drive it forward we will do as much as we can without a consultant. And you know I hope you're finding money to fund it because I don't think it makes sense to wait a year. And that they are going I mean I, I think we really ought to have a bylaw in order to give this board the authority it should have. And that's another whole piece of research is to look at what different municipalities have done with regard to how they've been, you know, enacted it through law. And, you know, getting that done. And so that that's a key piece. And I think there are any number of other details that, you know, we'll take it as far as we can in the time we have but I think have some professional help would would make a big difference. Another thing is that I've heard from several members of the town council that they are continue to be concerned about the level of fear and mistrust in the BIPOC community for the APD. And they understand the crest will reduce the amount of contact between the BIPOC community and the police but they're really, I mean what they said to me is they're looking to our second report for some answers about what is going to make a difference with with regard to mistrust and fear in the BIPOC community because they want that addressed and we're obviously not going to lay out the full program but I think with a consultant we're because of the BIPOC nature of this committee and the contact we've had with the the many months that we've been working. I think we're particularly well suited to try to offer some recommendations there. And I think we'd like a chance to try to follow through on that as well. And I don't believe we're talking about a complete review of all police policies yes that's certainly beyond, you know, any term that we've talked about for this group, or anything that can be done in the next few months but we have identified and you have in writing and at these two different documents from us we've identified some specific policies that in across the country have been particularly associated with racial discrimination or anti black violence. And so we've identified some particular policies that we think of to make a difference to start with. No, we're not, we're not proposing a complete review of all policies. But I think our, you know that what will be put in the IFB. I think it's IFB six is the number is that was the name of that one. Yeah, on the document, I think is a pretty good summary of what we think it makes sense for us to take on with a consultant. Thank you, Mr. Vernon Jones. Ms. Ferrara and then I think Ms. Pat also had her hand up. You know, thank you, Mr. Vernon Jones for bringing that up. I hear that the BIPOC community have towards the police and the police department is very real, and it makes it even more critical in terms of why it is that we need to work work on the full aspect of the chart. I said this before too, in terms of the resident oversight board, they're going to have a very specific job to do, especially dealing with complaints and dealing with how the, the, you know, police department, how we deal with misconduct within the police department. And then, you know, obviously investigations, confidentiality, a whole lot of things that are going to be very specific to it. It's not going to be dealing with them addressing all the other issues in terms of reforming the police and that's those that was the charge you gave to us. Right. So now you can't shortchange the community and just say, well, just focus on the resident oversight board. That's going to deal. That's going to be a big chunk, but that's not the full, the full scope of it, especially given the fact that BIPOC community are definitely afraid of the police and how they interact with our community, especially in terms of intimidating and, and, you know, being retaliatory, you know, a lot of times being harassing and so on so forth. Okay, we've already, that was all in part A, right, when 7th Gen brought all that information in those testimonies and people really being guarded in terms of, you know, making sure that their identity would not be shit because they were so afraid of the police, right. So, so basically, you know, again, just restating the importance of dealing with the full scope. So, if you welcome in, are you going to fund the consulting group, that's what I want to know. Are you going to fund the consulting group. And again, you know, I guess we only have until August is that what you're saying in terms of this group and then there's going to be quote unquote, whatever it's going to do. I guess we're going to figure that out. I don't know. But anyway, are you going to fund the consultant. So, I think the decision tree is that a consultant won't be able to do any work before September 1 right by the procurement there's just no way of doing it right. So the first question is about extending the time frame. And then the question is if we extend the time frame what what level of certain for two months till November 1 I think is what the date we talked about. What is this, what can be accomplished with it with a consultant in that time frame is I just want to make sure that we're talking. Is that is that what we're talking about here. And, and I just, you know, I just need, I think our visions of what the group was going to accomplish that are different. And, you know, and where I, again, we said the same things over and over so I need to say it again. And I thought what the topics that you had identified that you've already started to work on were really important ones because I think those were the primary targets of inquiry that really needed to be done. And then the question is, I guess I'm just talking out loud here I'm sorry for fumbling but if like say we talk about resident oversight board, maybe that's not a good one but traffic, the traffic stops. Research alternatives to police and traffic control explore examples around the country of traffic control responsibilities being assumed by entities other than police explore exact elimination of ticketing for traffic violations. So is that would that be one of the tasks for that. That would be the, that would what we would want the consultant to do. Is that if I'm understanding this. I'm sorry, Mr Backelman which document are you reading from. Yeah. Yes. Yes. So the IFB was the, the document that we proposed as a final document as a group to be ready. Well it was initially an IFB, but I think at our last meeting we decided that it should be converted into an RFB. But I think it's in a final form. Yeah. And then I don't know if this is helpful at all in terms of the decision making but just to offer another perspective. You mentioned something about making change and reform and action in regards to having the resident oversight board up and running as soon as possible. And although it is a very necessary substantial change to make that it will take time to get it set up to recruit the members to have them all on the same page for them to start doing research and to actually have their work to start making changes. And if you want to make fast quick changes, then allowing us to offer recommendations as to reform that is the quickest change that you will be able to get on the ground. And then you also mentioned something about having this continuity and this ongoing thing and that that would be what the resident oversight, resident oversight board would provide after we are able to have the sort of on the ground right away change. And so just a different perspective in terms of looking at it in a slightly shifted way because that was the language that you just used in your view and and I don't disagree. I just think that you can think about that also in a different way. So as we started, as I'm thinking about implementation, if we start looking at, I mean, again, the Crest program is on its path for the, if we look at a resident oversight board, realistically, I think we've laid out two paths. One is just to just to point and get it going and then the second is to get the legal grounding for it or do we wait for the legal grounding idea a bylaw prior to getting it. But in either case, suppose we get that, you know, a recommendation done in the next two, three weeks, whatever. And if it's a bylaw, it goes to the council and maybe it takes a month or two through the council and then so we're talking like November one before we get some get that group up and running. And, you know, and that would be optimistic because we'd have to get the charge up we'd start to recruit. Make sure it was, but if that would be a goal, say, and again, I'm just sort of trying to think out loud here. And then what you're suggesting, I think, Miss Walker is to say, well, let's keep work and keep the CSWG working so that when that group gets up and running, we can hand them things that they can look for into more deeply or something like that. Was that was I was I interpreting what you're saying correctly. Um, not completely incorrect, but just more that the emphasis was on our ability to offer recommendations more immediately than it would be for you to recruit to get together recruit start give a charge have them be able to accept complaints and do the complaint process, or have them be able to do their own research and offer recommendations on their own will be quite a more lengthy process than just letting us have an extension to complete that and offer those recommendations. And so that that alternative route will allow you to more quickly put into some put something into place that will offer change and that then this the implementation of the resident oversight board can carry out the continuity of that change, rather than waiting for that group to be implemented and for them to have to go through this exact process. And for it because because we've we've already gotten to this point right so we've been working for months we've gained a lot of knowledge we've gained a lot of connections with the community, and to have another group to then they don't just pick up where we left left they then have to create all of those connections, and all of that that building they will then have to start doing that as well. And so that it's a process for the community to trust them and to want to come to them and to speak with them and for them to know. I mean I don't necessarily assume that these are going to be all people that have experienced doing something like this and this has been a learning process, a very difficult learning process and for them to have to engage in that same process. I don't see that being like the quickest out for change in this process at all, that it would actually be more quick to allow us to finish to allow us to give you those recommendations. And so that then the resident oversight board can carry those things out and that would be more continuity. Mr Vernon Jones, and then miss Pat. Yeah, I mean, I understand you're trying to figure out, you know how this works with the timeline and a consultant. My sense is that the things we've identified in that IFP document are things that we will try to move forward as best we can until a consultant joins us on September one. And at that point the consultant can take a look at our work and say oh you missed this or we can say we don't know the answer to this question and will you find out what other municipalities are doing here or check on the legal status of this. So yes, we will keep moving these things forward. How much we can accomplish by November 1 is hard to say if we have a good consultant and a lot of cooperation from the police department. My guess is we can accomplish quite a lot. There'll still be plenty of work to do after that. But I think our commitment is to do as much as we can. In the time we have. I'm sorry, miss Pat, did you want to allow Mr Backelman to answer first. Okay, Mr Backelman. It's a little bit different topic so if this pad is on the same topic. Okay. So I guess one of the questions I hit that that triggered was like what is the role you see of the police department in this process is are they information providers. Are they participants in the discussion. You know, how do you see what role do you see them playing like would you want them at your meetings on a regular basis to be engaged with the conversation or is this something that's wholly separate from the police department. Mr Vernon Jones, if you would like to answer that. Well, I mean, we may all have different notions of that but the seven gen group identified that it was important for a resident oversight board to be successful, a good relationship with the police department in setting it up was important. I don't think we want the police department coming to all of our meetings. I do think we want to have delegates a subcommittee our chairs, whatever meeting with the police fairly regularly once we get going on this. And partly because we want them to buy in to what we're recommending. We want if there are particular issues or stumbling blocks that they see because of their experience we were going to need to know about those. With regard to some of the policies. My guess is the chief already know some of what's in the state law what are the current policies. And, you know, we need to explore. You know, I don't know what the best recommendation is around consent searches. I think we ought to be doing something. But I think we need a dialogue around a number of these things. So on the one hand we're trying to create an accountability that has not existed. And yet simultaneously we need to be building a relationship where the police department understands that it's in their interests to cooperate. And that we offer the best shot at them being more trusted by their community that they've got. And hopefully Scott can can lead in that direction and work with us as we develop things. Thank you, Mr. Vernon Jones, Ms. Freira. Thank you, Ms. Pat. I've been raising my hand for a long time. And then I'll go and then I'll go after Ms. Pat. So go ahead. So again, I feel that it's still a disconnect as to what the BIPOC community wants and what we're discussing tonight and I'm getting frustrated. I think that regardless of what when we're at our charge will end, we should not lose sight of other aspect of keeping BIPOC folks safe. We are setting up another standing committee to ensure that BIPOC community are receiving the right services in this town. So in addition to oversight, we're all talking about, you know, crisis intervention, press program, it's all great and good, but we're not talking about prevention. I just feel that I'm wasting my time here when BIPOC folks reach out to me and telling me, you know, what they would like to see. And we come here, we're told, you know, we just want oversight board and we want press program, even with the press program. I can tell you right now, we shouldn't be a surprise. It's creating anxiety among some BIPOC folks, because they said who do they call, you know, does press program have phone number. And some people are saying they wouldn't even try to call press. Where is press going to be housed? Is BIPOC community center is a BIPOC space? I mean, these are the questions that have been raised and we're, you know, we spend so much time, you know, discussing when our charge will end, what we're going to discuss and why are we not listening to people we are advocating for or people who will benefit most. This is not just only crisis intervention. We also need to talk about the diversity inclusion and diversity equity and inclusion department program and also the standing committee. There's a lot that we need to talk about. And in addition, most BIPOC folks getting interaction with police to traffic stops. I mean, how are we going to do this without, you know, getting the help from the consultant to help us, you know, find out the trends nationwide and do the right thing. I can tell you right now what I'm leaning towards. I don't think the police should be doing traffic stop anymore in this town. I also think that there should no longer be writing of any tickets in this to stop. You know, people can do like a volunteer work or donate to the charity. You know, I have a lot of ideas in my head already. I think that should be transportation department just to deal with, you know, traffic and dealing with what do you call it, you know, when people go to pack and things like that. I don't think police should be doing, you know, traffic stops at all. They should stop doing that. Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Pat, Ms. Ferrara. Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm feeling the same frustration that Ms. Pat just discussed in terms of just obviously, and we've been talking about it right for this past two weeks, that there's an urgency in us doing the second part of our charge really well is very important for all residents, especially for the BIPOC residents. We need to be able to kind of look at all of these aspects and not just the aspects that you want, Mr. Bachman, it has to be all of them and we have to take the time to do that. And I know, you know, you're trying to rush us and, you know, I guess I didn't even know that you kind of extended it up until November 1. But it needs to be done well, because when you ask, well, is the police, should the police, are the police going to be involved? And so, you know, in this discussions, my thing is, well, it may be because we're getting rushed, right? So if we're getting rushed, I'm not going to be taking the time to talk to the police. I'm going to be focusing on, hey, we need to hurry up and get this charge. We need to get these recommendations done and blah, blah, blah, what? You know what I'm saying? Because that's going to be my focus. My focus is not going to be talking to the police department. But yeah, I think it would be good for us to have discussions with them, right? Because as Mr. Ernest Jones said that for them to have the buy-in and so on and so forth, but that's not going to be my priority. It's not. If I'm being rushed to, you know, because I'm not going to focus, and I'm telling you right now, I'm not going to focus on just oversight board. I'm going to focus on the full charge. That's what I was, what I was, was, was chosen to be part of this committee. That's what I was told, and that's what I'm going to do. You see what I'm saying? And so if that's the case, then that's going to be my focus. It's not going to be talking to the police. So then, yeah, so then there's going to be a part there that won't function well, right? Because we should be having a dialogue, but we don't have time to have a dialogue. So that's the thing that's frustrating. People are telling you these things, things that are necessary, and you just keep on coming back with, well, why do you need to do this? And why do you need to do that? I've already said it. We've been saying it for these two weeks, but you're not hearing it. And that's what I'm frustrated about. Why aren't you hearing this? That's what I want to know from you. Sorry, was I just muted the whole time? That's a whole time. You just muted right at the end. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. The question is why are you doing this? Why are you, why don't you want to, you know, have us look at this charge thoroughly and have us have the time to do this work thoroughly? Why? I just want to know that from you, because we won't be able to do our work well. Well, and I'm trying to listen better and, you know, I think I'm trying to process information better. And so I think that at some point, the, if the charge, the charge said the charge, I don't have it in front of me, do I? There's more, Sam, can you put the charge up for us to see? So the charge said the purpose of the community safety working group is to a make recommendations on alternative ways of providing public safety services to the community. And be make recommendations on reforms to the current organizational and oversight structures of the Amherst police department. So organizational oversight structures. And I think that, you know, I think the other thing that you identified in your IFP was the concept of community policing, which I think is an organizational structure. And I think that's that was something that has been identified multiple times in the over policing category of things. And I think that that's an important conversation, public conversation for the community to have is that a good practice or not. And I think that we've never had that conversation in public. I think it's a pretty big conversation, public conversation that will take time to educate people about and to come to a conclusion on what is the right thing for our community. And, you know, APD believes that that is the right thing. But I think we've had testimony from others saying that the result of that program, that approach, doesn't create a safe space for us. And so that's I think an important public conversation. So I think that that was the organizational structure piece of it. And then we have like, how do you study those things and then there's a lot of examples of things tools you can use to study but those are the two big things. And you did a, yeah. Sorry, might we be able to because the charge continues after the purpose and I think that it's really important to continue reading down into the working group can can achieve this by. And there's a very specific set of a list of examples in which we would be expected to do this. And I know everyone can see them so I'm not going to read all of them, but one of them says reviewing policies complaints and current training practices. Those are examples of things that you could tools you could use right. I agree with you on it. Okay. And, and the fact that the report should have some of those reforms included when you go to the reports it says, it says the resident oversight, but also policy reforms. When you say under reports. Yes. So it's not just resident oversight. So when you say to us, well, you're not going to have time to look at the policies you're not going to have time to look at some of these other aspects that deal with training complaints, you know, and so on so forth and we're not doing what you have charges to do. But, I mean, yeah. And if I may, on the engaging the community. Jennifer, can you come in a minute. Okay. What it says identify solutions to diagnose problems. Identify solutions to diagnose problems. And to me the way I read it before even I applied to be on on the committee is on to make sure that I actually hear from people from my people for BIPOC people like what are the issues that, you know, we can address. And what kept coming up was youth center multicultural BIPOC multicultural center, not to have interaction with the police in terms of traffic they do not want to be stopped by police. So the way I read it, you know, identify the solutions to diagnose problems. And that's what I'm very focused on, because I'm really in touch with BIPOC was I've lived in this time for a long, long time, and people do reach out to me. They text me they call me, you know, they email me. And I'm hearing from a lot of people. Mr. Vernon Jones and then miss Ellen. I just wanted to mention that our concern about alternatives to police in with regard to traffic control is actually part of the first part part a of the charge. You know it's all alternative to police for providing safety services. So Chris is one part of the answer. I would like the possibility of some alternative around traffic control that would reduce traffic stops and that contact between police and BIPOC communities is another aspect of part a of the charge really. Now you guys right now, whatever we're doing, if at the end, the town government, because we can make as many recommendations as we want. But for the BIPOC community and I can't speak for everyone, if we want, you know, done with this work, and the police is still in charge of traffic stop. Right now, it's like our credibility was sank within BIPOC community. I'm just telling you right now, they do not, we do not want to have any interaction with the police being stopped for, for, for minor stupid stuff, excuse me for my language or speeding your light is off or something. We don't want, we don't want to have those interactions and get rain off and get tickets for that we don't want that anymore. And that's what BIPOC wants. They don't not want to interact with police in that regard. It's really triggering for people. Thank you, Miss. Miss Ellen. Yeah, I guess for me, Mr. Backelman, I'm just wondering at this point what the limit, what, like, what is the barrier that you're having trouble understanding because I, the money we have it the details we wrote them out at the last town council meeting it seemed like most town council members were even in favor of us continuing our group. What, what specifically is it that you don't that what's the barrier. It's a really good question. Thank you. I think they're, for me, it's two things. One is the, the details in the AFP seem really big. It seems like a lot. And I don't think that there's going to be money or time to accomplish everything. So that's why I thought you had focused on the sort of core major things that were most impactful on the community, which were the resident oversight board, the successor group, the traffic control, the community policing as the four major components. And I misunderstood what that was. I thought that's where you had said we're going to focus, but you said, but I think what I understood what you said today was that's where we're going to start now. We've divided ourselves up to work on that now. So I understand that better now. So, and then, so I think that sort of, it's a, it's a very large IFB this is a very large and there's, I think there's no way if we said, I think that it's, it's going to be hard to accomplish and then one of the questions is, does do you envision CSWG just continuing for a very long period of time or is two months what what you're thinking about, you know, I try to think fit in what this, how you've identified the things that you want to accomplish with the timeframe we have. And what the timeframe is, is there's no budget implications so we don't have to have a short timeframe. And I'm just confused personally how last meeting we were talking about you proposed to the group that we moved to an RFP and now we're having conversations about the IFB being too broad. I'm sorry. It's just, it's just really confusing and it's setting our ability to move forward back because we keep waiting on this conversation and we need to be able to come to a mutual agreement. When I say IFB I just say that as a as a shorthand I what I really mean is RFP I'm using the IFB because that's the name of the document by do me I do agree with you on an RFP process. But again, even even with an RFP process. If you're the specificity of the RFP will matter in terms of the quality and the ability of firms to respond to it. We can be willing to give our group time to create a subcommittee and work on an RFP so we can put that forward and then go from there with the time that we'll need to finish our charge. Sure, we can help, we can help with you with on that as well. I mean, that's, that's what Anthony does, you know, for a living. And Jennifer knows how to do that as well. So I, I guess I'm confused. So now you're saying for us to shave then the IFB that's what you're saying, because we're not going to have time to do what we need to do. Is that is that what you're saying right now because, again, we already submitted to you, what it is that we need assistance with. So, so you're saying that that's not going to get accomplished and so now we need to shave and now we have to go meet again. We'll have a subcommittee waste time again right come up with a whole new set of shaved priorities, so that then that can be you know that that's troubling that's very problematic, because again we're not being able to complete our full charge. Is that what you're saying, Mr. Bachman? No. What are you saying? What, what are you saying? If we are looking towards getting a conclusion of the, of the report be. I think that, you know, there, I think the charge is what what is in the IFB, which we will make into an RFP is very large. And I think that, you know, it's going to be a large consulting contract very large consulting and it and it won't. I don't think anybody will be able to accomplish this. And that's why in the time that you're setting us up to do. So that was my question. You're like the request from the, from the committee is November one right and so, you know, if at some point this is a working group, the work has to be completed and handed off to the success or whatever the group is that's going to be doing this on a regular basis you want to be able to empower that group whoever is coming in to be able to own the project as well. So, I get it but then I mean I wasn't at the last meeting I know November 1st that line I guess was thrown out there that that's the deadline. Can it be longer than I actually am not sure we got a con for a confirmation that we were going to be able to extend to November 1 as of right now our deadline is still the same. I think we had a more in depth conversation about the possibility of an extension at our last meeting but I don't think it was ever actually confirmed. Mr. Vernon Jones. I do think it's possible that the IFB document that we wrote would result in prohibitively expensive bids. If, you know, if what we get is, you know, more than, you know, is likely to get approved, it doesn't actually move us forward. So, if, if the town manager could make a commitment to us about, you know, extending us, and we can talk about how long I think November 1 was, I mean November 1 was, was actually a date that Mr. I think if he could agree to extend us agree that there will be a successor group and agree to put out an RFP. I think a few of us could agree to meet with him or and with Anthony or whoever to see how this thing could be shaped not to not to cut out any of the issues but to define it in a way that it was manageable enough that good people would bid on it and at a price that, you know, would be reasonable for the town. Mr. Backelman what's the rush to dissolving our group. I know we're a working group and we have to end but what is the rush. I just anticipated that it would be a short term working group and that's how it was set up and that's what the expectation is on on on my part and you know I think that because of the pandemic and all the other things that came into play and that the charge was much larger than anticipated. And this was never anticipated to be a standing committee. It wasn't set up or recruited or advertised for that and when I talked about it with the town council. So it was really defined to be a targeted study group that would then come out with was concrete recommendations and I, I, you know, I feel like, you know, there were some extenuating circumstances and moving to the next phase of implementation is really important. In terms of what is the structural changes. What is the, what's the structures that we're going to put in place to make sure and, and, you know, so. Ms. Pat and then Ms. Farera. So this is why it's very, very important that we have more bifurc people to stay at a table in terms of making decisions that affect us. I'm actually here talking about the RFP going to be very expensive, but we don't talk about spending $1.70 million, fixing the front of the town hall. So that actually irritates me. I don't even want to hear about it's going to be costly to do something that will benefit people who have been marginalized oppressed, living in fear. Now, I don't even want to hear about how much it's going to cost. I want us to do a good job. And this is well resource financially. When it comes to bifurc stuff. That's when we don't have money that we have money for dog pack. I'm repeating myself, we have $100,000 to hire a manager to manage capital projects. I'm here with the last, and we're talking, you know, the cost to complete work that will keep bifurc folks in this town marginalized people safe. Excuse me. I don't want to hear that. Thank you, Ms. Thomas Farera and then my son. So, so, Mr. Barklin, we keep on, you know, and I know I'm, you know, and I've said this before, you know, keep on sounding like a broken record here. And this oh and pose the question which we had already posed, you know, like two weeks ago and I'm sure last week too, in terms of the, I know that you all had a certain conception in your mind right in terms of what you wanted to happen. And so the charge that you all created was in response to everything that was happening in the country, the uprising that occurred after George Floyd and all the other people, especially black people were killed. And so you are under a lot of pressure and you all created a charge for us to deal with, but I guess in your mind and maybe others mine, it was just to deal with a certain scope right the Crest program a community responder create a community to create an oversight board. But no, that's not all of the things you put a charge that would make that would ensure that people felt safe. So now you've seen that we collected data we've talked to the bike community. These are community members in Amherst that as Ms. Pat said feel marginalized and feel intimidated and feel persecuted and oppressed, who are basically saying that, you know, our work needs to continue until it is done thoroughly. So you've heard that town consoles have heard that, but you're still barking at it right and you're still going back to know it's about me and it's about what I want you're the town manager, you know, and the town council is here to serve all of us to serve all of the residents. So basically what you're doing is you're denying the voices of the BIPOC residents. Yeah. I mean, let's just sit with that Mr. Barclayman you're the town manager right town that encompasses everyone in the town, right and the town, and a portion of your town is saying that they want us to to complete this work thoroughly and to completion full completion. That means we'll need more time, and that means we'll need consultants, and you respond back to me I do want that to be clear that no, that's not what you want. You conceptualize this as a terminal group working group, and you want us to end at the time that you want us to do you see you hear what you're, you're saying. You're denying your residents. So that means right when it comes time for elections appointments and everything else, we're going to have to then, you know, make sure that someone else that hears the BIPOC community is there to serve all residents and that the town councillors to who are there to serve all residents will be the ones that will be elected in town council. I mean, that's what I want you to respond to, if you could please, are you listening to what we're saying, and that it is from a BIPOC residents of Amherst. Can you please respond. Yes, I hear, and I think we I think you're right Ms Farrah that we have gone sort of round and round on this and I, you know, my role as town manager is, you know, responding to the council that hires me to do a job, and to do it in the to the best of my judgment and ability within the constraints that I have, I have constraints as well, budgetary constraints and other things so that's the factor and also being able to, if there is a recommendation or something that it gets implemented successfully, we don't want to have a series of recommendations just to have a series of recommendations. That's why I believe really strongly that the crest program to be successful has to have police and fire engaged in the establishment of it because I think that is the surest path to success for the third stool the third leg of the stool of safety of safety response. I think we have that I think that's moving forward that's really a positive thing. I think that the, you know, you know, I think as as you said, said that the resident oversight board is an important tool for the town, so that people who are unheard, and are can somehow and I, this is a complicated one how do people confidentially go to a resident oversight a public board and able and convey their concerns of over policing or so, and then, you know, my goals are set by the council is to get things set up and running. And, and I think that the, you know, continuing to expand the mission is not getting us to accomplishments and I what I am asking the community safety working group to do is to focus on the things that we can accomplish and set up the next body that's going to go on, continue the work. The work is endless. This is just the tip of the iceberg. And so I think the most powerful thing that community safety working group can do is to pick a few things that are the most urgent and most impactful. And I think you've done that and say let's dig in on these things. Let's get these changes made. And then, and, but to say, my fear is that we will be going down, you know, policy rabbit holes, then you get into the legal stuff and the union stuff and it's going to be endless and it's going to be where I think the function the functionality of this group will be best served I think that's for the successor group or the resident oversight group whoever who's going to have a long term established relationship with the police, and who can build up their their school skill set and maybe some of you are would be willing to serve on that group as well, because you did you have developed a really strong basis of information on things. You know, I look at it Miss Farera, and, and I'm, I'm, and I'm, and I'm hearing the things that you're saying but I think we're just said in different locations in terms of where what I can, what I feel I can do in my role as town manager. Thank you, Miss for and Mr Bach woman, and I would like to call on this my son and then miss on but I would like to just make a brief comment because I wanted to thank Miss Farera for that comment. Because I think, like, I'll, and miss, miss an on a buck because she did bring this up earlier that we're really missing the goal of our group was to, we really needed to interact and provide a platform for the marginalized by pop community in Amherst, so that their voices can be heard because the reason that there is mistrust with between that population and the APD as well as with all town officials is this exact reason right here this is a perfect living example. They come and say what they need, and nothing happens. And so you guys like you guys as in town officials I have heard many times, why don't they trust us why aren't they going to come and speak at forums why, because this is what happens they tell you very clear, clear as day, what exactly they need. And then they are met with all of the reasons why that cannot happen. These are the accommodations we are going to make so that we can do this for you. And I think that is the change that needs to happen here. Not we're going to meet you with all of the barriers that exist but we're going to figure out together how we can get over these barriers to make this happen because you deserve safety. That is like a basic human need. So like I agree with Miss Pat in terms of like we have money for everything else that we're talking about people's safety here. And I think that's also getting a little bit lost that that's a that's a basic human need like they need that people deserve safety on a day to day basis and this is important essential and urgent. And so I just really caution you Mr Bachman because you are talking about your, your investment and making these changes and making this happen quickly because you want substantive change, but you're not going to be able to to meet your goal here, because you're going to be off putting the community, the community is not going to want to continue and engage, engage, they are not going to trust you, they are not going to trust the Crest team. They're not going to trust implementation they're not going to trust the resident oversight board because of this that's happening right here. We are, we have already gained some of the trust not even of all of the BIPOC community but some, and they are telling us this is what they need. And if we can't accomplish that for them. Then what are they to expect to come from another group and another this and another forum and another, they are not to expect anything to come of those things. So we need to figure out a different way, doing the same thing over and over again has not worked. It is not working. So what are we going to do differently Mr. Bachman not well this is the barrier, and that's and leave it at that like what can we do to get over those barriers, what accommodations can we make what different roots can can be made and I think for us to be able to be successful. We need this to be a co effort, like we need you to work with us, not against us not bumping up against us not just sitting there passively. I think this needs to be a collective group for group effort and we all need to be engaging in this together for it to be successful. And so it's a little bit hard because like we're throwing out suggestions, and you're just like well I just didn't think and that's fine. But then so what are your suggestions what are the other things we can do what alternatives what hurdles can we jump through here because that's what's going to need to happen for this to be successful. Sorry, and then I think I called on miss moison and then miss on and I also see you miss Bowman with your hand up thank you for patiently waiting. So I know that we've struggled and we've gone around and around with this for a while. Right. And so, in fact, regardless with or without a consultant, there's work to be done and we can't get it done until we get past this point. I am just curious to know, like how much time to CSW do you think that they need to fulfill whatever it is with or without a consultant, and then how long does it take for the RFP to go through and by the time you can have someone handled hired because what you don't want is extend out three months but it takes two months to get the RFP contract signed so I'm just trying to find like to see if we can come to some happy medium somewhere and keep moving forward because we are definitely at a place and it just seems like there's a way to solve everything. Right. So, to CSWG members have any idea to how much time that they think that they would need to complete this charge. Miss Owen and then I would like to also make a comment. I think it has to be dependent on how long the consultant process is going to take and how long we're going to work with them. I think that I don't have much experience with RFPs and consultants but I think we could go from their base if other group members have experience with that and want to chime in. So I just want to say I think that our group should be extended until Cress is out just because the community helped develop this program and we need to be together to have to build that community trust around the program and to continue having dialogue with people who are silenced. Thank you Miss Owen and just to add to that so I also agree with Brianna but I believe that there are actually a number of things to take into consideration before we can answer that question because one we also want whatever its successor group may be to be in place. So I think that that needs to happen as well and then just going back to the community engagement I think so we are aware and we know that we are not a long standing group and I don't think that that's what we're asking for to happen at this time. And so I think we do realize that at some point we will have to be dismantled but we're not done with our charge that's the first part of it. And then the second part is that we have heard the feedback from the community and we we the intention is for us to allow the community engagement to to guide our work right and so the feedback we're getting from the community and specifically a meeting that Brianna and Brianna had very recently is that how are we how are you guys going to build trust between the community. And the Cress team if your group is dismantled and we communicated all of these things through your group and you are the group that sort of is representative to the community as the people who came up with this as the people who fostered this idea and who brought our our visions and our voices to the people who are implementing this program and we've been acting like a bridge this entire time. So the feedback we have gotten from the community like this is not an ask we're coming up with ourselves is that they would like us to be in place until the implementation of the Cress team because that's how they feel like they will be able to build trust within the community. So like we are using the voices within the community to inform our work and that's just another need that we have heard. So I don't know if that's I know Miss Wilson that's not an exact answer to your question. Maybe we can shape. Oh, go ahead sorry because there are just contingencies like there are things I think that would, we would also need to know the answer to to pick a specific date. Well, right. I mean I think it's kind of hard to say we're going to start Cress on this day because I think that might be a little bit harder right because we can't control who we're going to be able to hire and not hire necessarily, or who will apply basically is what I'm going to say. Maybe if we look at an in the timeline frame instead of an RF. I'm just trying to make it so that we can move that we can move forward. And so if we look at it as a timeline, including all of that information. Maybe that can help guide us a little bit better right now we're just completely stuck at this one point and I you know, and there has to be some way to get past that. Right, without us, you know, and so I'm just trying to figure out one of the thing is time so I'm trying to figure out how much time did we think we need to make that happen and then I don't know you can't. I'm, I would be a little bit hesitant to say that the crest would start on November 1 right like I feel like. I don't know. I don't know how other people feel about that either but you know I said I miss Pat and then miss Owen. So my thinking is, at least for us to be on from for a year like from we started this in December last year. I would like to request to be one year anniversary of 2021. And it wouldn't stop setting up the oversight board it wouldn't stop, you know, to start recruiting, you know, responders, or the director, as we continue to do our work. Many things can be happening at the same time I don't see any issue with that. So I would like to see that our group work for one year. Wait, one more year or. No, no, no, no, no. December 2021. Okay. Thank you miss at miss Owen. I'm looking at the timeline that Mary Beth sent Alicia and I right before this meeting and the timeline that she sent us says that crest is going to start operating in March. It's important that we stay together until March, because also I think another thing the CSWG has done is engaged a conversation between social service agencies and Amherst. And I think that we're going to have to have another forum to see how we can again bridge that community trust in the crest program, working with key players who serve people in Amherst like love from the survival center and talk about how we can get the word out about crests. So I think March would be a better date. Thank you miss Owen and sorry miss Bowman. I think I missed you earlier and I never doubled back to you. Did you have something that you wanted to say. No, okay. Sorry, thank you. And so I don't. Sorry, Miss Ferrera is out of hand. Mr Vernon Jones. I'm thinking that I could live with Miss Pat's date for our work on our charge. If on that date we became a crest advisory committee that then saw the crest program through into its first half year of implementation or something like that. But I wanted to also ask another question. Mr. Bachman, is there a way to hire someone at a set hourly rate, who would do some number of hours of research and consultation for us, rather than specifying, you know, specifying these jobs and how to complete them I mean everybody's going to bid high because it looks, it looks like a lot of work. But if we had a top notch researcher. Hopefully a BIPOC person who's got some experience. And we had a set number of hours that we could identify what we most needed them to do. And we did the things we could do. There might be a way to do this for. I mean, I don't know ahead of time how much money it would cost. And I think we could probably get the job done. It's a clarifying question. Yes, Mr. Bachman. So, so what you're thinking is it's an interesting idea and I appreciate all the comments on this and I just just for framework the town council has voted to instruct me to have crest up and running by February one. I think they have them started hired by February one. I think that was the vote that they took with the anticipation that. And that's the date we've been targeting for the crest program for that. I mean, I think they get hired and then they have to do the training that would have to happen. And as we back up from that, we were starting to put together a timeline in terms of when do we have to, in order to hire by have them on board by February one, when do we have to advertise and do the interviewing which goes back to like basically November one. In order to get there, we have to hire someone who's going to be the community who's going to oversee the program, which, which is another couple months. I mean, Jen would know better than I how long it takes a couple months probably to recruit someone so we're, we're going to see in terms of just hiring the people because we want to hire the person in charge to who will help guide the hiring of the next group. And Mr Vernon Jones your idea is interesting. I need to process that a little bit are you, I guess a clarifying question is, are you thinking of if we suppose I'll just say the leap program just because they have experience and we've talked about them previously in this I don't want to prejudice and prejudice anybody in this situation but if you said hey we want to buy X number of hours from the leap program consulting group or a particular person who however you decide to do it. And let's start with this start let's do that right away and start work and see how far we get the issue. I have talked to procurement. I think that's a possibility that it takes it out of the RFP process begins a different kind of contract under certain if it's a certain amount of money, I'm not sure exactly what that some is. But it does expedite that might be able to expedite things if speeds of the essence, or not speed but just wanting to get the, as you start to do your work. You want to have information from people and there's going to be lots of questions that pop up as you are doing the research you're doing right now. I mean my thought is that it's some, I mean we could now we could specify some questions we have about any one of these pieces right now. And somebody could get started on them. But what our next questions are is really partly dependent on what the answers are. And partly dependent on what we've been able to do and partly dependent on what we hear from the community and the police and everybody else. It's a cleaner arrangement with whoever's doing it because they're not going to have to guess about what's going to be enough. Right. I mean, just in response to that. I think one of the first questions is how much time do we have to do the work once you set your work they want to know, because if it's a smaller piece of time, they need to see if they some firms won't we've run into this with other things. They've already got contracts in place and I can take it on. If you're looking for farther down the road they can do it, but I think that's an interesting idea. Miss Pat. So, Mr. Ross, thank you for your suggestion. I have a mixed feeling about your suggestion. Yeah, you know, I get the point that it might make, you know, the process faster for the time manager to hire researcher. My concern is, I kind of like the bidding process where some group of CSWG is able to interview, you know, the folks and we kind of discuss and decide whether or not we want to go with somebody. We want people who are local, do the work with us who are impacted by this by police will be nice to, you know, to just get people that are not from this area to do the work. I don't know how I feel about that. I know that leap is being thrown around and I'm sure there's a lot of work they can do. But for the charge that we have, I rather have people who are local, who are impacted by police, you know, for them to do the work for us if we want to call them researchers, we can change, you know, the name of what it is, but if we can get them locally and their people of color, BIPOC, are we okay with that? Now, how do you go about the process, you know, do you advertise, you know, this is public fund, you know, money. So I'm sure the time manager knows, you know, we, you know, you can just, you know, approach somebody and said, you know, I want you to research this on, you know, it's public money tax payers money has to be, you know, advertised somehow. I thought Ms. Bowman had her hand up before. I went back to her and I think she said she didn't want to make a comment at this time but Ms. Bowman if you would like to speak, please feel free to either unmute or just put your hand back up and I will call on you again. I'm here. Thank you and thank you Ms. Farera. Sorry I saw other hands but everyone put their hand down so now I'm going to look. I've said this already once before and I'm going to keep saying it. Anytime BIPOC people ask for anything, we get to run around. And it's exhausting. It really truly is exhausting. And I've said this directly to you before Mr. Bachman that your community needs to feel uncomfortable. Because you know what, the system that was set up to put us in the position that we are in the what we're operating in right now was not comfortable for BIPOC people. And what I see you doing constantly is tiptoeing around your community because you don't want to make them feel uncomfortable. Like literally, literally saying to them, this is uncomfortable for you. I hear that. You need to be hearing that. That this is uncomfortable for you, my fellow white people. But if we're going to actually see some real change, there's going to be time of being uncomfortable. Because you know what, these people over here, these BIPOC people over here have been dealing with uncomfortable their entire existence. But you won't do that. And so honestly, I like I just like I know that like in the last few meetings I haven't said much and it's because I really like I really am like at a point where I'm kind of washing my hands of the situation. And it's not because I don't care. It's because, as usual, BIPOC community will have to stick together with BIPOC community and take care of each other, and be there for each other, and be there for each other's kids and be there for each other as a community, because the white people in this community do not care. And you can say all you want to say you can put as many, like I said black lives matter signs up as you want to put up, but your action are exactly what tells us what you will don't do. Every time somebody said, okay, I'm going to put it to you in this way. A few months ago I sprained my ankle really really really bad, right. And it hurt. And I told my job I said look, my ankle really hurts. I need to have some downtime I need to be able to sit down at work I need to be able to like, not put pressure on it I need to be able to I sit in elevated like, if you want me to come in this is what I'm going to need to do. Now my job could have done one, like they could have done a couple different things. One they could have just like go home until you feel better. They could have been like, we will accommodate you as much as we can, you know, and like and hopefully that'll be enough and if not then obviously you can go home, or they could be like, get up, get on your feet and do your job. What you are telling BIPOC community is get up and get on your feet regardless of the pain that we're going through regardless of the struggles that we are dealing with at the hands of white people in this community, you are telling us to get up and keep going. Now, I'm not saying that I can't get up and keep going because you know what been there done that because at the end of the day. That's how I was taught by my mom who was concerned about my well being in this white community. But do not sit there, do not sit there and try to be like a model do not sit there and try to act like you're helping do not sit there and try to act like you're listening when you're clearly not. None of us are speaking another language, none of us are speaking in a in a dialogue that you do not understand. We are being very clear and we're being very direct with the needs of this community, and you are not. You are, you are choosing to break it apart to make it comfortable. You need to feel no comfort in this. This is not a comfortable situation, it is not a comfortable situation for me when I get behind the wheel in the town that I've been living in for 30 years, and I still like a sweat when I have to drive by a police officer in Amherst and I've never done anything to to even consider like that would be even considered like oh yeah oh maybe she robbed the bank or oh yeah maybe she did this back in the day oh me. My mother never let me go anywhere so I never did anything. I literally didn't do anything I didn't party I didn't do anything. The fear is passed down through generations of harassment through generations of torment from at the hands of police officer. It doesn't matter if you've never felt it it doesn't matter if your neighbor has never felt it it doesn't matter if the white person in this community has never felt it I felt it. I'm in a constant state of heightened awareness. I don't calm down like I don't get that moment where I get to calm down because I'm constantly could be at fear for my son safety, I'm raising black boys, they I'm constantly in fear of their safety. I'm constantly in fear of my God daughters and their emotional and physical safety when it comes to Amherst police. One of my one of my most significant conversations over this pandemic was with enough with a teacher, who had a six year old daughter, I believe it was a daughter a six year old child. And we're talking about how black folks from the moment that they lay eyes on their child. I mean, even I would even say some pregnancy. It is, you know, I will say through pregnancy because you know what black babies and black moms are dying at a four times higher than white moms and babies so yes I will say in utero we are already teaching our kids to be fearful of certain people in a certain situation because that is all we know because that is all the systemic racism of these communities has taught us. They have taught us that we are not safe. So when I talked to this parent who is also an admin who is a teacher at the school, and I was like, look, I had to teach my boys from very early on about racism and about systemic racism about, you know what they can and can't do in public and what you know how they can't look behave at whatever the case may be. And that people weren't going to like them just solely based on the color of their skin. And this parent said to me, Well, you know, they're a little young they're only six so you know, we haven't talked to them about it. And I said, Well, that's nice. That shows your white privilege. I don't have that option. You need to look at this situation as you don't have that option. You don't have that option. You don't have the option to like, you have to look at it and being like, I need to hold this community accountable. The job of the black women to hold the white community accountable. It is the white, other white members of the community to hold each other accountable for their behaviors and for their neglect on, on basic human rights like we don't feel safe. How much clearer can we make it we don't feel safe. This is what we need in order to feel safe. And instead, you're trying to pull the rug under because that's not what I plan. But so what it's not what you plan that doesn't plan get changed all the time. Right now you have a community of people who feel safe with us. And you're telling them they're going to have to build up another community to feel safe with one that's not fake to them. They've already established trust with us to this is what y'all do. And in, in, you can go back and you can look at the history of BIPOC people asking for help or asking for things to change in this community. And you will see, what was it 17 different things that things that were started to address BIPOC people issues in the community, if not more since the 90s. That's just going back to the 90s. Mr. Buckum and get it together man get it together because right now you're just you're just blowing a lot of hot air, really, you really really are. And, and I just I just I. It's just it's just it's disappointing and frankly it's disgusting it's just upholding the standards of systemic racism that's exactly what it is. Get it together. Thank you, Ms. Bowman. So in light of the time I just wanted to pose one last question and then hopefully move on to the next item, just because I feel as though we still haven't gotten an answer to our question. And so to just post to pose the question and be most simplest form that I can. What is the status of our request for an extension. Is it a firm yes, firm no, or still have not decided. So, in order to understand. Are we still on. I need to understand where the scope what you're expecting to accomplish I think that. So, if so, again, it's there is inter interrelated with the consulting person or group, whatever we do on that, right. I'm sorry, those are two separate things. Well, I think that they're sort of combined so if we go to consulting group, you definitely need a extension. That's what I would say, right. If we don't go with the consulting group and I think, you know, the, so, you know, on Monday's meeting, I think the council did recommend that you're, you'd be extended. I'm not sure if you watch that part of the meeting or not. But they were not expecting any more consulting services to be provided from their statements. Those are individual statements. So, so I think the extension can happen with a consulting group or not the consult the extension has to happen if there's a consulting group. And so if there's no consulting group, there's a possibility of getting I don't see how you get your work done by September 1 quite honestly, I mean just the if even if it's just on the scope that we've already identified in terms of those four major things. That's those are all pretty hefty things. So yeah, I think extending it to to November one is doable. It will be done and I'll adjust the charge to do that. Thank you, Mr. Backelman. Okay, so I would like to miss for error. Oh, that's the absolute latest. That was what the recommendation. I thought that was what the recommendation was and that's yeah that's. I thought that that's the that's a date you threw out. I thought that others have said, you know, December. Yeah, December, and then others have said, you know, last December but then we become an advisory group to see the press put through. Right. Yeah, so I want you to respond to all of that not just put out the November 1, I think November 1 was just a date thrown out there so you know December. November 1, and then we become an advisory group. Yeah, so let's start with November 1, and see where we go. See how much we can get done by November 1. Okay, so you're saying November 1, and then we can ask for another extension. I think I think the working group ought to be closing finishing up its work and handing it off getting the next successor groups moving. So why are we here. Why are we here, you gave us a task to complete for trying to get it complete in a thorough way, and you're saying well no it's you know it's not convenient that it's still going on in this, this way because you feel like it's non thorough. And at the end of the day, you buy by this man you saying you're dismantling up unless you have in time that you're not telling us which that's just a whole nother issue to, you know, have us be part of something else. But that's still, that's still backhanded and sneaky, as far as I'm concerned whether or not you that was your intent, like it's still backhanded and sneaky. Right now, all you're doing is exactly what I just said you're doing. So for me, I'm done with this meeting. There's nothing else I want to hear about this meeting because Mr Buckleman. You are holding that status quo, you are holding on to it and you are holding on to it tight, and I see you, like I see you I'm just it's. I don't even know why you put us together. It's some joke, it's some joke amongst those like, you know, the elite white of Amherst, you know what I'm saying, and then don't even get me started like because I do wonder if I believe I'm correct and saying that you don't even live in this community. So, at no point do I feel like your intent has anything to do with this community, because you don't live here. You don't interact with the BIPOC community in this community in this in this area. You don't see what we go through. And you're clearly not hearing what we go through. You're clearly not hearing what the community is telling us as a, as people who they're looking at as people they can reach out to and get a message across. This is all this is a whole joke this is all performative to me as far as I'm concerned. It's a whole bunch of performative and I don't like it. I don't like it I'm tired of being in a place where I'm just being looked at as like oh, you know, you know we'll get to Sheena there because she's going to be you know she'll say what she has to say but you know at the end of the day it's performative. It's performative, and I don't, I don't like it and I don't like backhanded motions and I don't like backhanded behavior. Because it's a waste of my time do you understand I'm a mother of seven kids. You understand the amount of time and amount of energy that I had to do I have to do to get together at these meetings to be here to be kicking kids out of room so they're not constantly in my face the whole meeting shame on you, there's no there's I don't know what your intent was behind this, but I'm right now I'm really disgusted, I really am. And I want the community to know because I feel like I just wasted so much of my time. Sharing ideas sharing thoughts that I thought might make a difference because of who was part of this group. But at the end of the day, look who's making the decision. Look who's making the decision. Look who's keeping us from making this happen. And look who's telling us, well, you can do it your way, but maybe this way will be acceptable. Here's a little bit of crumbs you should be happy with that. It's the white community of Amherst, the people on the board, the people that don't interact with people who look like me. The people who don't interact with people. They don't they don't even interact with with with people who have mental health. They don't that are living on the streets they don't interact with people who are part of the bike pop community struggling single moms whatever whatever they don't they make sure they don't they make sure they don't from when they do their meeting. They make sure they don't from how much they give for pay to come to these things and do this and the amount of work that we put in. The amount of work that we put in. And I still took it because I was like, Oh, this is this is for this is for a good thing. This is for a good thing this might actually make some change. And at the end of the day, it's the same old story, same story. So what we need, we say what we what will make things better that will make change in that will make us more trusting change in our community. As a by parking members and say like this is what will help us have start to have some more trust and more trust and so on and so forth, and then all the white people that decide make the decisions shut it down. You might not think you're shutting it down because you might think you're giving us a cracker over there and a cracker over there but let me tell you something. You're shutting it down because you're not hearing what we're saying, you're not hearing what the community saying, and you're still feeling dignified and will justify in what you're saying to us. This is what's best this is what's best and that's not what's best. I know what's best for me. You don't know what's best for me. I know what's that you can give suggestions. Today, what I need is what's important. Not what you feel comfortable with, because what I need is to know that I can send my kids out the door, and they're not going to get harassed by Amherst PD. I know that I can have friends who can have parties, and they're not going to get harassed and disrespected by Amherst PD. No one damn well the college students that are down the street are breaking, literally busting up houses. You're not hearing us you're not listening, and you're making that decision consciously at this point, because you've been called on a number of times. Yes, Mr. Buckman, I see you, and you are performative, and you are full of it and I don't like it, and I don't know why you wasted our time. And if you want to answer a question that's what I want to know, why are you wasting our time. Thank you, Ms. Bowman, and Ms. Owen, I'm going to allow you time to speak, but I just wanted to go back very briefly to Ms. Ferrara's question to just specify that so there was a town council meeting this Monday that just passed. The town council meeting I also really suggest if everyone has time to to find time to watch at least the part of the meeting pertaining to the CSWG and the motion that was recommended and so there was a motion put forward to recommend an extension for the work of the CSWG until November and that motion did pass 10 yes to abstained one no I believe. So that's where that number that's where that date is coming from so the town council has passed a motion recommending that the town manager extend us into that date. And I am suggesting that everyone watch the meeting because I think the conversation around the extension and around our need for a consulting group will really help to make everyone understand what is happening here, and what's happening right now. And also, I mean I don't know for sure Mr. Bachleman and I'm sorry if I'm speaking incorrectly for you, but I think a lot of what Mr. Bachleman is saying to us are things that I also heard expressed during the council meeting. And so like these concerns and these thoughts that he is sharing with us are also shared by other town counselors and their thought that we don't need a consulting group. And that that would be a waste of money, but that they did, however, recommend to give us an extension on our work. So I would really highly suggest if you guys have time to go back to the recording of Monday night's town council meeting, because you will find a lot of answers to the questions that are being posed here tonight. And I would like to also give Miss Owen a chance to speak and then miss I do see you also. I can go after miss Pat I had a question that's on a different topic. Thank you very much. Just want to remind us is to eat, and we have other items to discuss one suggestion I would like to make is perhaps we should. Maybe the two coaches can write a letter to the town council, but they need to put us to get help with our project. I empathize with Mr. Buckman, you know, as an employee, you have to listen to your bosses, and in this case that, you know, the town council you have to meet their deadline their goals and everything. And I know you're you're juggling a lot, but I think your role is also to take information you get from us to your boss, and say, you know, this is what I'm hearing. And when I put out the charge for the group. I didn't realize that it would take this much, you know that you know you should advocate on our behalf and said, we really, really need help. You know, I kind of like the idea of researcher, as long as it's local is people of color, it doesn't have to be one researcher, it can be coupled to speed up the whole thing. You know, advertise it. I hear you because I'm an employer I get the professional aspect of where you're coming from, and I know your heart is in a good place. And I know you're trying, but I also know that you're learning a lot from us. You take whatever all of us have said tonight, you know, as a learning process for you, because we're deeply really hurting. And what we're expressing is, you know, what we feel all the time so going to speak to you tonight, I'm tired like I can't even absorb anymore I'm so exhausted, this meeting has been very intense. So, if we can just be mindful of our time, you know, when we speak, so that we can wrap this up tonight. I'm tired. Yes, thank you miss, Miss Ferrer and then sorry, I think I skipped this one as well. It's okay. And I'm being mindful too because mind you remember I'm in West Africa first so as soon as I can be out of this meeting, I want to be off. What time is it over there? It is almost 11 at night. Okay. So that's what I'm saying. There's time difference. Yeah, all of that. Yeah, it's only because we're in West Africa, if you go to South Africa, then it's a lot more. Yeah, because I've been in South Africa too. Okay. So, so my question just to be mindful of the time though is back to what I had asked previously, Mr. Bachman and you've heard Miss Bowman and everyone else. So you're saying November 1, I hear you that I guess thank you, Miss Walker for giving me more information because obviously I didn't attend the meeting that November 1 was what the town council extended to. But again, we're saying we've given you all this information. So November 1. And then if there's more time, we can extend the time beyond that. Not agreeing to that. No. So you're not agreeing to that. So basically you're just agreeing to November 1 is the extension. And that's that that's where we, we end up. Yes. Okay, so then we can go back though to the town council and ask for more of an extension after that. That's what you're saying first to do then, right? Well, it's a, it's a charge that I wrote. It's not a charge to council. It's an advisory group to the town manager. If they had written the charge, they would own it. Yes. Yeah, but, but you, but basically you were did not want to budget from September 1, but then they are your bosses as you've stated, then they've told you November 1. And now you've had to go to November 1. Right. Not necessarily. Yeah, but you have though. I have, but more. November 1. And then we'll, we'll go from there. I just wanted clarity on that. Yes. Thank you, Ms. Farera. And also just to provide a little bit more if this is helpful, that I think the town council, it's a recommendation. So they're recommending that the town manager extend us. So he doesn't even necessarily have to extend us until November 1, but it is a recommendation that they did pass. And I think at this point that they can only pass recommendations in terms of that. And then Ms. moisten, I think you also had your hand up. I did, but I didn't know if Ms. Owen wanted to go first. Oh, I'm so sorry, Ms. Owen. It's okay, Ms. Farera and Ms. Pat said what I needed to say. Well, so. With it, if the new date was November 1. So I think like whether you, I think maybe you guys should try and figure out whether you want to try and or have Paul find out if you guys can hire a researcher. And I would suggest that, or if you need to go through the RFP. So that you guys can get moving and Paul, how long does it typically take for an RFP to go through. I think the question Anthony would answer, but it's multiple weeks for sure. Okay, so a little bit longer than the IFB. Yeah. Okay. Because you have to write the description, then you have to give people time to respond to it. Then you have to evaluate the proposals. So it's different. So my thought was if you went with the researcher that can be something that. If it can happen, I don't know that it can happen that way or not, but if it is able to happen, then I would assume that we would go through the usual human resources channels and then perhaps. No, it might be a contract, not in not a position. All right. But either way, I think you guys might be able to sit on the hiring committee, I would hope so somebody from the group. Thank you. Ms. Farera. I guess that's the thing at this point, you know, I think Mr. Vernon, you know, that said about, you know, if they could be just a group of people to work with, I guess, Anthony, to just come up with what's the best way for us to be able to get what we get with the, with the amount of work that we need to get done in the quickest way possible. And we just do that so that we can move forward. So there's some limitations on dollar figures on that. I would need, I think $10,000 is the limit on that. When you can go that process, I would need to double check with Anthony because there are various rules that come into play on procurement on these things. No, but yeah, but we would work with Anthony, right? Wasn't the subcommittee work with Anthony? I mean, I'll talk, yes, how you say I want to talk with Anthony and see what those rules are. So we're not going down a path that isn't realistic for the working group. Mr. Vernon Jones, I think you also had your hand up. Well, I mean, first, I do think it's important if we're selecting somebody that one or more of the BIPOC members of this group be on the hiring committee or the selection committee, if that's part of the process. And can we get this set up so that you and our chairs and Anthony or some small group of us can meet even in the next few days? I'm sorry, Mr. Bacquan, I think that was a question for you directly. Yeah, so I mean, I mean, not tomorrow, so then we have the fifth is a holiday, of course, but next week, certainly, I think that we could understand what the constraints are certainly the next couple of days. I mean, again, I think the limit is $10,000 in terms of what we can go that route on. Before I venture out too far on that, I would trust his judgment on these things versus mine. And would it be a possibility, Mr. Bacquan, if we cannot have a meeting with him before next week's meeting that we just invite him to next week's meeting? Yeah, I'm sure we'll, unless he's on vacation, I'm not sure if he's on vacation next week. A lot of people are taking vacation, but I think if he's around, we can certainly meet, you know, Tuesday or Wednesday. That won't be an issue. Who from this group would you want to have be part of that discussion? More like that. The co-chairs. I'm available if that's what the group wants to do, but I want to know if there's anybody else in the group who wanted to be in that meeting or wanted to be doing that. Mr. Vernon Jones. I'm willing to be a part of it as long as, you know, at least one of the co-chairs is there as well. I mean, the other, the one we did before it was sub, oh, I shouldn't use the word subgroup, never mind. Okay, two of you can do it because I'm interested also, but it depends on the time, like I can't do certain days. My understanding is this is just to understand where the, what are the different paths available to us. If we're going to go to the consulting group, right? That's, or specifically, is there a way to have a contractor who works on a per hourly per DM basis to expedite the ability to get somebody on board? That's what I understand. But also kind of showing him, Anthony, all what we have so far and then saying, okay, well, we'll be the speediest way to get this accomplished. I mean, let me just say what is in my mind. I like continuity. I'm very happy with what Seven Gen did. Why can't, you know, the town reach out to them and say, would they be interested in, you know, contracting hourly work? And then we come up with topics that we need most help with if, you know, if the money is the issue, which, you know, irritates me, but I kind of like continuity because they're already involved with this. I'll be very comfortable for them to continue. I don't want to speak my mind. I mean, it's going to take a while for me to, you know, to have a new person I have to deal with trust issue, regardless of the color of the skin that person is, you know, because your BIPOC doesn't mean that, you know, you agree with everything, you know, so. What about that suggestion? Well, I think what we're looking once we figure out what we're looking for you want someone who has it had experience working with police departments and doing reform efforts. I think the qualifications that you would put forward are very important. So you want somebody who's who doesn't have to study everything has already looked at hundreds of policies, hundreds of resident oversight boards, whatever it is that we're really focused on. Thank you. The qualifications for the person is really important. I mean, I would argue that knowledge of our town is less important than the subject area knowledge. Thank you, Mr. Welcome and thank you, Ms. Pat. Just very quickly, I'm not sure if I'm even excited about the concept of researcher anymore. Of course, you know, whatever the majority says and whatever, you know, I used to say whoever has the money, you know, holds the power. So if it's going to come down to this, if the goal is for us to complete our work, I'm not sure that I know I'm binding to the whole thing. So at least if we reach out to seven and they said they can do it because they don't have expertise or they can or they have, you know, other resources, other resources they can tap into to get the work done for us. And if they say they can do it and that's different than we move on to other people that somebody with in the police background to do the research for us. I don't know how I feel about that actually. Thank you, Ms. Pat. Ms. Moisten. Tishina apologize for leaving the meeting. But she had to go. So. Thank you, Ms. Moisten. Thank you, Ms. Pat for for those suggestions. I'm wondering though if that's something that we have to decide or are engaged in further discussion right at this moment or if this is something that we can think about and then when we get more information from Mr. Delaney that then we can come back to that to those suggestions. Yeah, I think. Yeah, can we whoever's going to be meeting with him if it's you miss Walker and Mr. Vernon Jones if you all can kind of just pose all of that and share Ms. Pat's idea and kind of talk about all the different options and then we can discuss it in the next meeting. I'm in agreement Ms. for I think that that would be a good step and so I I'm willing to meet and I think that Brianna might be as well but just because we've we've been doing a lot of meetings I think it's appropriate to give Mr. Vernon Jones and Ms. Pat the ability to meet and that if the timing doesn't work for you miss Pat or you Mr. Vernon Jones that then Brianna and I can step in. That sounds good. Just very quickly just to say that we live in an academic community and somebody with background in teaching and college level that has done research will be able to help us with this work. We don't need anybody with police background to do it. I don't know if I will receive it. I've already made up my mind. I'll be very skeptical. Thank you miss Pat. Mr. Vernon Jones. I just say my preference would be to have one of the co-chairs with us as well if possible. One or both. I'll step back. I don't need to bring the meeting. It's okay. Two of you can do it. It's fine. I just need clarification from either Ms. Royce and Mr. Backelman how many of us can meet together without it being considered a violation of the open meeting. So your quorum is for I would draw. So the quorum is for I would say in a hesitant side no more. I think two when you have two people that's pretty good. I would say three might push it to where you might want to post a meeting even though you don't necessarily have to. I would draw. My schedule is quite full. It's okay. I'm just expressing my concerns. Yeah. Because anybody with teaching background in college level has done research, you know, have, you know, track, you know, record of doing research should be able to handle this. It's what I'm saying. So, thank you miss. So I mean I would be happy to go with you Mr. Vernon Jones I'm not sure that the time and the date yet but I have quite a bit of flexibility next week. So we're we're hoping for Tuesday. Is that the Mr. Backelman is that something you as a question that you can propose to Mr. Delaney to see if he has availability on Tuesday. Is there like a specific timeframe Mr. Vernon Jones that we might be able to propose. My preference would be between noon and five. If that is also okay with me Mr. Backelman would you be able to reach out to Mr. Delaney to see if you can facilitate a meeting or not facilitate but organize a meeting for us on Tuesday between 12 and five. I think I'll shoot I'll shoot for Tuesday at noon. Okay. Okay, great. Thank you. You guys want to be in person or via zone. I think that's I'm fine either way. I also don't have a preference. I'm available for both. So we'll all be in town hall so you two should decide how you would like to do it. Whatever is more convenient for you both. If he's available at 12 I would be open to doing an in person meeting. I would too. Okay. The next item. Well, so we, we didn't really stick to the agenda items for this week. And I think we briefly though discussed some of the things. The next thing was the priorities for part two of the charge, the IFB phase two, the resident oversight board. And then the last item was recommendations from part one of charge to follow up on. That we can move to next meeting and that we don't have to continue into conversation around that at this time. Ms. Pat. I have not read it. I think it came through today. I mean, the document came through today. I apologize. Which document. The recommendation for part one. That was a document that was coming through as we're about to start the meeting or something like that. Okay. So. I sent out earlier today, I sent out the packet everything in the packet has been in previous packets over multiple times because we just keep. So it, they're the only thing, what was new was herbs. And then Brianna sent me stuff. You know, right before the meeting. So I uploaded those. I sent them to the new packet. So. The first, like six pages are, are, is already stuff that you guys have seen. And then the last page is the response from her roads. And I believe a note of thanks or gratitude. Or for support. For supporting the CSWG. I see. Has that gone out yet? The, the thank you letter. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. No, it hasn't. No, it hasn't. That's the final project. I was hoping that. We could agree on it tonight at this meeting, but it's honestly just two paragraphs, thanking the community for their support, coming to public comment, emailing us and supporting our work overall. So. If everyone's comfortable, I'm happy to send that to the Indie. I named it, you know, that line is tomorrow. I haven't read it yet. It's okay. It's okay. Are you sure I can wait till you. Would you have a chance to read it tonight? Yeah. Okay. I'll wait until you read it for. I promise. I'll get back to you tonight. Can you see it or you don't want me to. It's okay. Oh, this is it. Yeah. I'll take a look at it later. And I would suggest sending it to the regular. Paper to, to Scott. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yes. And I apologize. I was actually working off of the. The first agenda and not the revised agenda. So. There's not a revised agenda. It's a little revised packet. Yeah. Okay. Provides gender is different. Which has some more information, more things to address than I had been looking at. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. These things were going to go under topics not. Included 48 hours in advance. It's why they're at the bottom part of the packet instead of the top so that it wasn't. An issue. Okay. And so, so I think the other thing that we didn't address in here was. Mr. Rhodes. Email. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't have time to review this before today's meeting. I think that this is really helpful information that I would suggest everyone to review or look over before next meeting. And then also there is a set of questions that I. Intend to post to the town manager. However. Just in light of this meeting going over. I'm hoping that we might be able to move that to next week as well. I think that is okay with everybody else. Mr. Vernon Jones. I think we had two different. People who were working on things with other individuals who said they had things to bring to us at the next meeting. And I expect to have some proposed language for pieces of the resident oversight board work. And I think that that would be helpful. And my request would be that we start our meeting with those. Things from. The pieces of work. And whatever we have to do about further process. Wait till the end of the meeting. Thank you, Mr. Vernon Jones. I'm, I'm also in agreement. With that. That was scheduled. So, and those were, are there any other topics that weren't anticipated within 24 hours before this meeting that anyone would like to bring up at this point? Okay. So with that, I would like to. Call the meeting adjourned. Is that okay? Okay, great. Good to see you, Deborah. Yes. Come visit. Are you swimming a lot? All those African food. Yes, the African food we have it is called kachupa kachupa. And it's corn and this too. And this. Nice. Nice. Nice. Nice. Nice. Okay. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye bye.