 Okay, thanks very much, Marion. And good morning everyone. My name is Tin Chen. I will be speaking about this very interesting topic. And, first of all, I want to thank Marion to allow me to share with you and I'm not open educator yet. And I soon will be and and I close the organizer to have the courage to invite somebody from outside like myself to talk about in this conference. So it's a privilege and honor to be here. I am a self labeled global education activist, which means that I go around literally the world and to talk about education and how to make change to education. And so I've been doing the things 2007 and first started in Taiwan, and I home HK my own kids, there's three of them, and the oldest already 23 and she's now study in US and in the musical theater and youngest is a 10 so I still got a couple of years to go. And I also teach at National Tsinghua University, and which give me a lot of pleasure and pain, and to have to deal with college age students and, and I also found it the first experimental station to which I will talk about a bit more for the type of city government in 2016 that's where Marion and I met. And I'm also a member of the Taiwan National Curriculum Review Committee, which means that I together with the other 48 souls are responsible for the next 10 years of our primary and secondary education, like it or not. And we hope we're doing a good job and the reform is in the right direction, at least our heart. And I'm also a review committee for the National Experimental Education and in the higher learning which dealing with the junior college and the bow. So I look, I look at how people are submitting experimental education proposal, and I find a lot of room can be improved. And I think open education will be an answer to that. That's what we're talking about today. And I said, as I said I've been very active globally so I'm among organizing committee for global home education conferences in 2016 in Rio and 2018 in Moscow and from Petersburg. And 2020 in everywhere in the world just like this one. And it was which finished last week and was attended by over 2000 people. That's 95% of the school age kids were in one way or the other homeschool sometimes sometime this year. So, and okay. Oh, there we go. So why home education and what can we learn about it as an open education movement in Taiwan. Well, the first one was talk about the unique part of home education and which in Taiwan we call a non school based experimental education. And for those of you who are familiar with this, please switch to another channel. The National Town University president one is giving a speech right now about the future of education so go ahead and do that that the rest of you are free to stay and then let me explain to you a little bit about the story. The home education in Taiwan is a very parent initiated legislation process, so I eat the parents the financial amateur who just write a law about home education and then they started a whole movement. And the students themselves are very much part of the activism so we encourage home educated students to participate in this whole movement. And the, and the law guarantees at least two thirds of the review committee consists of people who are watching know what they're talking about. I eat the participant or good organization which represents the participants. So, this is very different to some other part of the world where there are experts or educators or university professors. There's a review committee, but in Taiwan it's not. And, and homeschool students can have access to any school activity so basically how much patient and school education in Taiwan at your work hunting hands. It's not a rivalry situation is as a collaborative and sometimes it's almost like embedded so how much paper embedded in the school and the vice versa. And so they can take part in different part of the activity in school, so we can tell swap and take bits and pieces out as well. And also the tuition subsidies, which is very interesting that in Taiwan, if you're high school home educated, and you can get up to 2250 years a year to spend on anything you want. And they are, you know, like the latest MacBook Pro, and, you know, I'm not endorsing MacBook just that something came to my mind and running on the ladies and one chip will cost only half of much of this so you can go to computer a year or you want to go with that. And then the government actually provide counseling and support services. And especially if you're a special need kids so it's really not a relationship that we just hung them dry and then leave them to do whatever they want. So we have a collaboration between government school and the parents. So, and students, so it's a very interesting unique in the world, I think, and how we came about in this kind of unique arrangement. We have to go back to about 20 years ago. And prior to 1999, which is last century, and that's time flies. And there are only four kind of education in Taiwan. Basically, you have a public and private and you have a vocational school and general schools, so in high school, and the school was reserved for the privilege. So if you are somebody who is well connected with the government, and you may want to start a private school, which requires a big part of land, and the very a lot of money as an endowment, and it's required by the law to have that. And then starting 2000. So we start seeing grassroot movement from different local educational authorities jurisdiction that parents started demanding home education. And so, and they are institutions which will come in and say, well, we're a group of school and we want to organize something like that. So it's a very much a button up movements. We've been doing for 10 years. But very soon this kind of development run into an issue that's not every local jurisdiction that equally welcome. So some are more reserved, they don't want to rattle, whatever it's going on at the moment. And so, when the parents go to them and ask, can we apply for homeschooling, they will say no, because we have a set up application rule year. And there are no procedures in place to accept the application. And then you can ask them, why not. And they will say because nobody ever applied before. And they say, well, but I'm here. I'm applying. And then the education authority will say no, because nobody ever applied before. So we have no room. So just keep going on wrong and wrong. There's no end to this vicious cycle is just, you know, it's custom to situation. In 2011, and the parliament Taiwan legislative and decided to pass the amendment to force the Minister of Education to set up a national guideline to allow everybody in Taiwan who like to homestay their rights are protected. So, so local government have to follow the guideline or establish their own guide rules based on the guideline. And so that kind of solved the first change of problem. And the, but then he didn't solve the second problem, which is, when the home education is in construct it, it violates other education law, such as compulsory education, such as the privilege for students registered with them who can delay their military drafts and other things. So, so then they come in 2015, the government, the parliament pass a law which dedicated to homestay and protection of their rights and at the same time, they also pass a law which provides experimental occasion, the big orange block in the middle, and the homeless patient are the one on the right, which is an unschool based experiment patient. And this is where the, the open education movement in the higher education may come into play since 2015, when the law was in place. There was not possible for higher education to do an experiment, which may sounds like an optimal one because one would argue that in higher education. There is no need for experimental education, I mean, the whole purpose of higher education is to experiment and learn. And here in Taiwan, it is sometimes remarked that there is only one university in Taiwan, which is called the Ministry of Education, and everybody else is just a branch campuses. And so, we, without in mind, the university really want to break away, and they want to be free from this mother, mothership. So, in 2018, the experiment, the school based experimental education was further amended to include higher education up to the mask. And so now the school based experimental education can offer associate bachelor and master's degree. Interesting enough, and since 2018, people's been applying and try to do exactly that. And I was privileged to be invited to sit on the review board to look at all these applications and figure out what exactly does it mean by experimental higher education. So, just a very quick view on the numbers. So, since the law has passed in 2015, as I mentioned, and create a new category of school based experimental education, and, and also public private partnership, or like a childhood. The law school hadn't changed much. And by noticing how the school based experimental patient has grown, and so the number of students has gone up by like 354 over the years, and very short period of time, five years. And what that means is that we are now looking at a big growth, but this is only the middle school time. And so primary and secondary education, and not higher education yet. And there have been several attempts by different universities, trying to apply for higher education experimental schools that so far now has been approved. It's not because I'm not doing my job. It's just that we as a committee, we haven't come, we haven't come to the reason why those schools is doing anything different to what the current regime can be. And we don't think they are experimenting. So, so, so today I would like to suggest experiment that is experiment enough that maybe your interest to all over the world in the open education community. And this is just a chart to show the number of home educator also grow a lot over the last 10 years and especially the penetration and because the, the, the number of students and the declining due to the, the kind of population the new born at the university are dropping very, very fast in Taiwan. I think right now Taiwan is close to one and a half or even one point to a child per woman, which the natural replacement very required 2.1. So it's very serious. But that's decided. So going back to the, so I, so I pick a model so this is this is totally an academic exercise so please don't hug me for being, you know, very lose in academic work. That's a scholar and I have this is cannot stand the scrutiny of peer review so I'm just going to say here, you know, declare that this is not very academic. So, I took a European Union JRC paper on open up education and they suggest a framework, as you can see on the right side of my slide. So I use that as a framework and then I say I apply that to non school based experimentation in Taiwan and see how open it is because I want to see whether I can use Taiwan non school as a model to do something. And I found it's actually quite open. Of course, you know, like, how much patient as I mentioned earlier on, was a grassroots movement you came from the bottom to top so we designed the whole thing around what we need and we lose of very and very active parents we cannot be have a unanimous view on everything. Therefore, we buy default is very open. Look at the access that means how easy to get into how much non school based experimentation. If you apply today now in almost every every jurisdiction in Taiwan there's a 99% success rates. So, no matter what your education pedagogy pedagogy is. We respect that right you know you are free to experiment any any way of learning, however you define, and the contents are wide open you can use national curriculum, you can use any other countries textbook, you can clear your own textbook. You can end school, you can not follow anything you can do things eclectically and and it's fully recognized surprisingly enough. When we pass the law, we make it quite clear that not only the homeschool students there's not even follow the national curriculum, but also they are free of exams, ie they are almost no other than for the second guessing how well your child has been educated, and you can pretty much do anything you want. And we only look at the process, we look at the learning process, and the outcome is whatever it comes out at the end, which may sound a bit scary for a lot of serious students and say my gosh what are you guys doing. But the results are quite surprisingly well I mean the home, the non school based or home. Students have done many interesting things went on for higher education started business, and so on and so forth. And there are some collaborations. The non school based home education has to collaborate with the school. Some people use them the school as a free babysitting or child mining facility. But others taking more seriously and really use the club and society and so on and so forth. It's very open and very collaborative and fully recognized. And, and there's one thing that we don't have this research because we as a home to parents was too busy teaching our kids we don't have time to find out how well our impact is to the greater society so right now is nothing. The best of European Union framework like strategy technology quality leadership on so forth. It's just a mix back and then you know it's a whole bunch of homeschool parents. You can't really expect them to do much other than try to get their kids together. With that in mind, can we possibly learn something from the experience of non school based experimental education and applied it and to create experimental university in Taiwan. And this is what I would like to suggest. So if you look at this chart, this is what we call the, the education diagram in Taiwan which is so you were different stage of education. Inside the boat line, the thick black line is the primary junior and senior high school. Those are the non school based experimental education. This is how far they got so far. And the experimental school right now of course extends to college. So like I said earlier, so you can do two year junior college you'll be you'll see on the top of the big boat line. And then the four year college which offer bachelor's degree and also master's degree which on the top of the big back like a ladder kind of shape. So it basically is the ICD stage 56 and seven. That is the area we are thinking right now is it possible to do something new and innovative and reshape how we understand how education is in, you know, in the modern day. Like, we'll be one one straight past the 21st century and then so far nothing new has happened. So again I took this graph from the OECD report on emergency of authentic credential but I'm looking at authentic potential as one possible way, but I want to suggest that the authentic credential and OER we can substitute each other for this for the purpose of discussion. And right now, OER authentic credentials. Most of the time they exist as independent and learning block. So we see on top of the diagram and they just sitting there, people take it and and with no no no relation to what you know what other credits courses you are doing. Some are the most exist, you know, like that so you take it and you read it and then you participate in the study and then you leave. It's like watching a YouTube video or even worse, you like to talk, you know, just go through 30 seconds and it's gone. There are other models which has been thrown around in OECD reports. One is embedded model which is like another qualification. And so it's just some of it. And then the OER and authentic credential plugged in. And which is happening already in some part, even in Taiwan that will recognize some degree may say oh you can take OER as part of your degree and it is recognized prior. You can come from the school. And of course, with COVID happening. And almost everybody is doing it now and a lot of courses just went online become OER or not. And then they become later on in a couple of years later, they'll be part of the students bachelor or associate degree or the master degree. And then there are recognition of prior learning model, what we call the prior learning RPL. The recognition of prior learning is more interesting because it means that prior to join this qualification or either starting a bachelor degree or associate degree. One already acquired some other credentials. It can be a CPA charter financial contents and, or it can be a Google career certificate or Microsoft engineer or whatever. And then you come into this degree, and then the program will recognize other people's degree, which is nothing to do with the organization that is offering the degree. So it's already happening in some schools in London, they already start doing that they will recognize some industry qualifications as part of their degree. So, so it's starting to open up and make the whole learning process even wider and more possible. And finally, the modular model, which is the one that I would like to propose for Taiwan is that you basically built the entire learning experience, your associate, bachelor or master degree program with alternative credential and OER. So that means that, and they are coming from everywhere, they are eclectically and as long as you have, you know, recognize them prior to the program starts and usually through some sort of mutual relationship. And, and therefore one no longer need to offer the same thing everywhere if somebody else already done so, and in a much better and nicer thing. And at the moment, students are doing it themselves, like my son, who is 18 years old. And he's an aviator, he applied private plane and, and he's on his way to get his pilot license. He's a jazz musician, he played in the band, and he's a skin instructor, he's got level one. He's level one certified skin instructor by the US Propaganda Association. With so many interest and not right now he's trying to become a financial planner. And he realized that all of the three things you want to do cannot bring financial security. So he need to know how to make money work harder. And so for him to do a higher education learning. You can just online and then find the most suited OER and and learn. And, but all the learning are independent. So, so he's picking he tried to find the best place to learn about jazz theory that jazz appreciation base place to learn about financial planning. The most interesting courses on skin tracking and so on and so forth. But then you cannot put it together and call himself even associated right now. Because nobody would let him do that. But if somebody already done a very good. For example, the freshman course or freshman English 101. Why shouldn't that course be used by as many students as possible. Rather than every university has to duplicate the same thing. And, and with a various degree of qualities and appeals to the students. Why not break it up. And can we actually do that. So I'm looking at the law, the experimental station law, which I'm part of, you know, I'm moving, setting it up originally. And I'm looking at it. Can it be open access on inexperimentals patient. Well, it turned out that it's a, it's a limited it's a limited yes because the law actually restrict the law said that the student can set their own student enrollment policy as part of that. Which is a big break away from right now, the, the only university in Taiwan, which is patient, which has through the, the, the joint college entrance exam and others set a quota and allocation on how everybody admit their student. And it's going to the university, you can set your own admission policy. So yes, you can have an open access to allow as many people to come in as possible. So, further, the experimentation exam by the law, so University of Virginia College law, but the government has set a ceiling, unlike the school base, there are no ceiling. The school base has a ceiling, and the ceiling is 160 students, if you are offering associate or master's degree only, and up to 500 if you're offering the whole range of degree or 360 if you offer a bachelor degree so providing the school hasn't been filled up yet. So the experimental school can offer any, any way to admit their students, whether they can do it without without entrance exam based on portfolio review or recommendation, or, or not three or donation, whoever donates most money can do it. There are also the possibilities and when the weather is a qualified yes, it's a very, it's a, it's an open access to go to experimental stages in Taiwan. And how about open contents. Again, the auto seven allows school to set their curriculum and teaching plan, and, and all sort of things. Which means that the school can theoretically, like I said earlier, say, hey, we're going to recognize everybody else is OER. And while we also make some interesting OER, which is unique to our university and nobody else is offering. And before the other people are offering, well, what was signed agreement without a school and recognize theirs and then whatever our students pass there, and then we'll recognize they have since the course is here. So, and, and of course, although right now there are many of them very, very high quality ones are field charge. So you can bring the cost of offering the courses a lot lower than what the schools are now doing is basically duplicating the same thing. There is qualities and content around the country. Every time you open a new university you have to open the same thing, which the ministry thing is important required courses. That's actually, you probably don't need to do that. You can use OER if somebody else is open. So yeah, content can be very open with experimental education. So if the pedagogical practice opens, what I would say that in the experimental station is open in her because in the article seven, which again allows article seven of the experimental education school, school based program, a lot of school to design and follow their own education plan. So basically, your station concept and curriculum teaching plan school system and so it is a choice. So yes, we can start drawing a school from ground up ground up with a blank piece of paper, not unlike the picture on the back of Marion, I know it's a virtual screen but we can do that we can draw a school like a doodle and then we can design it from ground up and we don't need to be constrained by anything that is existing in the current administrative region. Pedagogical thinking. Why not recognize somebody else is OER, why not let the students design their own OER and you know we're not constrained about that. Why do we need a required degree, required credits and can the student waive the required credit if they can demonstrate competency already. So all these things can be done in the experimental station alone and which we are free to think outside the box or even without the box to design our curriculum and so recognition is the biggest thing right now because it's so hard for universities to recognize each other I don't know why because it's such a big building you can see them from miles away. Why is it so difficult to recognize each other. Well, it's going to be hard, but I think that will be the challenge and I'll be the fun thing to do. Again, Article 7 allows school to be exempt from the degree conference which a very strict rule about how do you describe a Bachelor of Social Master's degree and what kind of loop they have to jump through. Hey, you know we can do what I call RPO I mentioned earlier recognition of prior learning. Student can be already with a lot of experience and knowledge and even professional certification. Why not recognize them. Why do you have to put them through the same drill again when they already are mastered. So we can recognize qualifications from each other. Like I said, many schools around the world are offering fantastic and excellent high quality of yards, and we can actually recognize them and then let students who use them utilize them and as part of their learning. The last part probably the heart is the social recognition because we can design this we can build it we can even start doing it. But if no parents or no employer will recognize it. It's going to be very hostile. So we need to get stakeholders from employer to say hey, you know we'll recognize this thing that doesn't quite like what you normally get a Bachelor of Master's degree, but we think it's equally qualified. And that is already happening in some area in the industry, for example, especially the it example people site a lot and especially in the business press nowadays is the Google career certificate, which Google is now doing worldwide and people who have Google career certificate in areas like it management and all the other things they would Google say they will hire them as if they have a four year degree. And which means that the Google career certificate is a six month long cost online courses, which is cost, you know, like a fraction of what the four year degree look like. So it's four is a six months and then four years and it causes less and I don't know the board of one semester in some of the universities. So, for the employers that recognize this kind of authentic, the degree that made up with we are an authentic potential, and we're going to see a real paradigm shift in the movement. And then on the framework is all talk about collaboration, and the regulation is no restriction on collaboration, you know, university are free and encourage to collaborate with each other. And of course it's hard to find collaboration partner for newly established schools, you know, we're going to create a new school in Taiwan. It's true that, you know, we're nobody and watching people work with us and but it's interesting that there are also some other collaboration which will require additional law, although there are no law to talk about collaboration but the result collaboration may affect some law, i.e., if we start to linking up with different university and then start pulling all the out together and then to do it. And the university, because right now the ministry of education have a rules on how distance learning courses can be recognized and they are very strict laws about how many hours there has to be in face to face course offering how many hours of distance learning and you need to get prior proof or you need to go through the school bodies internal review, and so on and so forth. So collaboration itself is fine. But the result collaboration may require other work to be done. And then, and research. I would argue that the openness in research that you benefit a new player, such as experimental school because school gets recognition by sharing collaboration. So everybody loves to, you know, interesting what other people are doing and then a new school came out and do the thing that we all saliva over. And it was very difficult to a part of the mission of education university branches, and then it gets very excited. So, and also such activity was advanced and help schools out ago like recruitment admission, the brand recognition, and so on, so forth. So I'll argue that open research for experimental school is very, very important if they want to get recognized in this field. So, let's look at what this current experimental university looks like in Taiwan, the first three columns and the path on the one that left which is just a label are the three. I consider more progressive courses or progressive contents and causes in Taiwan environment. And the last one is a fictional ex you which is done for experimental university doesn't exist yet. So, and so you look around and forget about the program name, I mean every school college or some very interesting, very grand and vicious name. And so I decided to call the fictional esquios of Taiwan's Got Talent because it's fun to call it. And now the reason and the oldest is only like three, four years. And so, and the number of students are quite different in terms of how big inside the program. So they'll require some sort of degree one way or the other. And this is out of 128 college bachelor degree required by the mutual education degree conferring law. So they'll require some sort of required courses. And is there room for self design courses for some yes, and when NCKU is national single university in Thailand. It's not possible, and you have to do everything. You can mix and match whatever is offered right now, but providing as long as they are offered by the university, so students cannot design their own courses. Instead of access, the NCKU is the most flexible, it allows incoming students, people apply straight from high school into the program, or people already in the university and want to try something else because they don't like whatever maybe a real study. The, and chinghua is all internal, you have to get into chinghua first, and then you apply to become an experimental student. And next to chinghua, the Jiao Tu University is, you know, literally next to it, they are just one, one word away, and they are external so you only apply as a freshman when you enter. There are no internal transfer parties. The recognition is very interesting. You look at it, chinghua is by far right now the most open in terms of the experimental experimental programs in Taiwan. So, chinghua will recognize traditional non traditional internship and international study abroad. So which pretty much anything traditional means that whatever causes are offered by chinghua right now. And chinghua is part of Taiwan University system, which will also recognize others on Jiao Tong and the other universities under the system. And non traditional will be something like my student at chinghua does. I've been teaching a course with only one student in chinghua, and she designed her own course. So she thought for the for the three year from sophomore to senior. Every semester she designed a series of courses that pursue her interest of study which is in her education. And of course internship outside the school is to recognize the international study. So chinghua offers the widest possible recognition, and you can pretty much fill up your 90 or degrees credit hours you need to graduate with a bachelor degree with a whole bunch of things that you want to do. Very flexible, quite sweet. And Jiao Tong University has flexibility of 28 to 33 credits that can be found school courses outside school courses and others. So, but with the minimal 16 from school courses so why how Jiao Tong offer some sort of flexibility. So let's put a limit on how much freedom you can have. And so in this case around 16 to 12 credits that the student can be lying their own courses or do something really. And Chen Gong University only allow 18 credits, which can be what they call interdisciplinary project. The interdisciplinary project is actually is done in the very strict guidelines so they are the students should initiate a research project so it's more like a master's degree of PhD kind of mini mini paper. So credit interdisciplinary initiative and then have a professor or one more than one professor to overseeing the project, and then to do the project. So, and for the ex you, the imaginary school, and I will say that we should recognize everything. The credentials OER from local international and not just university the NGOs corporate labs anywhere and anybody's got something interesting going on. We should let the student learn and then come back and recognize it and to give them a degree. That sums up my presentation 45 minutes gone and if you feel free to follow me on Twitter and there's not much posted right now and ask me questions, ask me now, and ask me later on Twitter. And thank you very much. I still 15 minutes I can. I'm happy to answer any question. Thank you. Yeah, very detailed explanation of the Taiwan situation. I know you have been through a lot. And for the last slide you showed. It's that the ex you, is that invented by you or it's kind of a little bit like then some regulations are not well regulated. I see you as a concept that after, you know, participating like, like Marion said I participating in a lot of experimental university in Taiwan, so it's very much patient Taiwan up and down the education stage. So this concept and I call them the ex you and to, to design a university that is truly open truly innovative and and take the advantage of the OER and authentic credential and so on so forth and allow students to drive their own learning. So, and this concept has been taken up by a new NGO in Taiwan, and, and they would like to carry this forward. So we hope to see it launched by 2022. And right now we're looking for partners, because a lot of content, learning content will be coming from institutions around the world. So I'm very happy that I'm getting this opportunity to speak to you all and hope we can take advantage and share with each other. Okay, we have a question from Paul. What is the most interesting? Paul, do you want to open your message and talk with us? Sure, sure. Yeah, this is really really fascinating. I'm finding this very interesting. So, I'm curious, Tim, to hear about what's driving the interest in the public in experimental and home based forms of education. Is it, is it that people are not happy with the traditional forms of education? Do they want an alternative? Or is it that they like the freedom of learning at home and being able to, you know, control how the education is provided? And like, what are the drivers, I guess, that is that are leading the people that you are working with to pursue this form of alternative education? Okay, yeah. There are many drivers and one thing definitely is not, it's COVID. And like the rest of the world, we are pretty much COVID free in Taiwan, so people don't need to go home because the school got shut down. The different age of, I would say, I'll separate it from primary, lower secondary, up in secondary. So in the primary, the driver and also of course the decision makers are largely parents. And parents are dissatisfied, some of them, and I myself was one of them, and with the way that the school is run. And it's not so much the curriculum itself, but how the execution of the curriculum because the school is very much focused on drilling and practicing, preparing exams. And it's not so much of the teachers' fault, it's so much of the whole society is very, very conscious about grades and numerical scores and so on and so forth. It's a very competitive environment, which I find is very unhealthy. So I decided to take my kids out, but I don't want my kids to learn in such a way. And so that's in the primary and the secondary, lower secondary. In the upper secondary is more to do with students' enlightenment awakening. Because I like I say in my presentation that we offer grants for upper secondary students to home educate and receive money from the government, $2,250 to be precise a year. So therefore, a lot of students in their 15 and 16 realize that they are not doing much in the school besides prepping for the college entrance exam. And they found their time can be much better used and much better used for the learning and get paid and to do whatever they're interested. So they're applying to leave the school earlier and to do pursue their own learning and the way they want to learn and being digital native, there are so many contents out there and in terms of OER and others, and they can learn. So we think very innovative kids who are doing as a research assistant in the academic center in young medical school and others in the work in the lab and pursuing their interests rather than being tied in school and doing exam to you. Thank you. Yeah, I can add something on that as well, because I'm a parent, I'm a parent as well. So I, the education system in Taiwan or in East Asia, especially, you know, our parents are very focused on kids education. So we require the kids to be have a very good grade in school. It's a general for a member in Asia, especially in East Asia, like Japan, Korea, China, with almost all the parents who are their kids have very good grades and go to very good university. And, yeah, probably that will make their career, future career better. Yeah, that's our parents' goal on most of the parents. However, that's this phenomenon will force the education system they want to concrete their education content and the later kids to be very good in them. So, so all our kids are forced to practice a lot of things that only for the exam, and not for lab studying or lab learning. So, yeah, that's it for me, for me, for Lebanon here, especially in Asia. We are talking about this for a leash, the education system so that we can have more imagination on the education and the real high, we will lay down open educational resources more feasible for all the oldest kids. Yeah, because when we practice like the most in our area, most of the learners in our area, they, they, they see this content to be an ad from their education. So we try to link the moves to the, the degree program, the credits, so they will have they will have their incentive to learn this thing. Yeah, that's one way, but in some how they see them. Yeah, they still have some problems inside it. I would say the MOOCs shouldn't be just a supplement to the to the learning. I mean MOOCs has developed so so well in the past 10 years and it's come so mature that it can be education curriculum is on rights and a student led curriculum like a student decided how they want to learn and explore and just going down the path of their learning. And so it's time to rise up and then take the whole world. That's not for open ed chambers. Yeah, and I think, yeah, because we have like done the MOOCs for like five to six years already. And we have seen some changes on teachers and all the professors, because they are doing the MOOCs so they think they will have have some mindset change. So we tend to, to find a teaching material and the teaching method or pedagogy. Yeah, so they, they, they change their course become a shorter course and the concept of life courses. And, yeah, they have a little bit difference from the traditional knowledge delivery. I can ask another question Mary and it would be in the early part of your presentation Tim you, you showed us the laws that have been revised, or new laws created to even allow experimental schools which is really in my view quite remarkable. There aren't a lot of new laws being created around education. And, and usually government is resistant to the this kind of change in law, unless there's a real real big demand. And while you showed significant numbers for home education and experimental schools it's not huge numbers relative to this population size of Taiwan so I wonder if you can speak to the government's interest in seeing innovation like this innovation. And so, ideally of course they'd be sort of the grassroots drive as well as the top down support for that. And so I'm just curious to hear your remarks about the governments, what the government's interest in enabling experimental schools is Excellent question for thank you for your insight observation. One word democracy. Taiwan is a democratic society and therefore the government listen to people and we all know that's very often in in democracy that's noises. I mean the voices get drawn by noisy. It's interesting enough in Taiwan we still managed to to pursue the voices of the minority. So, people who are interested in open education experimental station alternative station non school based patients are indeed minority like you said, our numbers very small and so in one of the slide I have. You can see the penetration for the non school is one in 10,000 and so the 11 when the first initiative was passed. And then of course it grows to the 3.4 0.34% but that is still, you know, 3.4 in 1000 so it's tiny tiny amount of people. And we managed to to get a government's attention by many ways of course we know be hard. We use public media and in our discourse and and also we present a non threatening reform. So we are here not to take away other people's territory we're not trying to carving into the advantage of the schools or the privilege they enjoyed, but we don't do any of that. We are just a very humble bunch of a bit Nazi radical parents who would like something different for our kids. We have a modest and humble request from the government and and everybody should have the freedom to pursue happiness, including education choices. And besides it's part of international treaty, you know, is in the human rights as well as the social participation. It's through many many discourse and dialogue, and we can pursue this moving forward and Taiwan is actually quite unique and unfortunately enough to be free of much of the ideology. There are no noises happening right now because very often we're able to just discuss issues rather than everybody sit in their own ideology camp, you know, and then. So we're quite fortunate and on Friday this time on Friday I'm going to plug my good friends and Audrey tongue, and she'll be the keynote speaker, and she'll be talking more about democracy and open education Taiwan. I think, thanks so much. It's been really fascinating. I love it. I love your question. Thank you. Okay. Yeah, thank you very much. We have one minute to laugh. And I think we will have more to discuss and there are several questions in the chat room. So I welcome you to keep the discussion in order to come back. Then we can keep continue this question and discussion. Thank you very much for participating in session. Thank you so much.