 welcome to Inside Leather History, a fireside chat. I'm Doug O'Keefe, the host and co-producer of these chats, along with Mistress Joanne Gaddy. The fireside chats are a program of the Leather Archives and Museum, and today I am sitting down to interview Fiona Horsley, who is South Africa Boot Black 2017, and the only title-holding boot black in South Africa. Isn't that right? That's correct. Okay, let's begin right at the beginning a little bit. Tell me a little bit about your growing up, your family history, that kind of thing. Well, my family is very, very small. I grew up in Janisburg. I've got an older sister. Growing up, I was very, very, very, very quiet. I mean, you think I am quiet. I think the last time you saw me, you probably thought she's quiet. But growing up as extremely quiet, I really kept myself maybe a little bit of a loner. I had a handful of friends, did what I had to do at school, just to get by. I was very much into karate. I almost made a black belt. Then I moved on to horse riding and was doing something physical. Then I went on to music. Yeah, so I was basically keeping myself busy with interests like that. I am growing up with my karate belts. I used to climb up, and I used to climb trees using my karate belts. And so I was very much a tomboy. So I think I've always been drawn to more to the masculine side of things. So yeah, that's basically how I was when I was younger. My gosh, what took you to Cape Town? Well, my brother and my sister, they decided to meet in Cape Town because he got transferred. And I thought, you know, I don't want to be their family member that only goes to see family on special occasions, be it Christmas or Easter or whatever. I don't want to be their family member, you only see every now and again. How did you discover that you liked the kinky community or however you self-define on that? Well, it all started in 2012, where Yaku, the former chairman of Esther Leather, decided to hold like a Cape Town's version of Folsom. And she knew of my rainbow goodies because I saw Pride version does. And obviously knew of me and he said, well, come be part of the event. So that was my opening, like an introduction to the community as such. Because at the time, Esther Leather was just a fresh new because there was just before 2012, it was Esther Leather Men. So he was trying to obviously do this event to introduce people, you know, the broader community to Leather and to King. And so that was my introduction. I've met a whole lot of Leather men. I was like fascinated with their leather gear and their harnesses. And then I saw people getting pegs, you know, the pegging and with pegs or clothing pegs on all over. And I observed some display of demonstrations. Oh, that looks interesting. Because I was like, so I obviously investigated. I mean, I use Google because I didn't know if it last thing. So I use Google. But so I was curious. So I went and I went to look and see what it was all about. And I was like, I have to I'm interested because it looks something like I want to explore. And that's how was my introduction to the Leather and King community. How do you identify in the community? Meaning? Meaning, do you like boys or girls? No, I'm listening. I'm gay. Tell us a little bit about coming out in that respect. Okay. Well, I was very young. I was 16. I was still in high school. I was infatuated with the cubicles in high school. There were a couple years ahead of me. And I realized, hang on, something's not right. I was fantasizing about being with women. And then by the time I got to 18, I was like, having full of full on fantasies about being sexually with women and not with boys. I'm going, oh my goodness, what's going on? Can't be like this. No, no, no, no. I didn't want to be like that because at the time, being gay in South Africa wasn't exactly accepted. I mean, gay marriage wasn't around then. So I didn't want to be that. So I denied myself. I said, no, no, no. I can't be gay. Because I knew and there was another fellow classmate who was in my class. And the girls in the class used to bully her, tease her the fact that she knew that she liked another girl. So I thought, I can't go through that bullying, that torment. But at the same time, deep down inside, I wanted to actually say to them, say to her, I'm on your side. We can stick together. I'll support you. But I couldn't because out of fear. So at 22, early at the end, I come out to my family. So but in terms of coming out to my family in terms of being into leather and exploring King, I think it was because I saw open with my mom anyway, I spoke to about anything. So I wasn't scared to actually say to mom, I've got to tell you something and then the whole like feel like I can't actually verbalize what you want to say. I just spoke about it. And it wasn't a matter of coming out. I just spoke about it. Oh, fascinating. Tell us a little bit about your first experiences with leather King. Well, my first experience was that a social event, it was a demonstration at a local member's house. And there was a couple that came up from overseas, obviously friends of fellow members, obviously, and they proceeded to have a live demonstration where there was a lady and a guy, and she basically picked it. And also there was also another one with flogging. And I was like what I observed it. And, you know, that was my well, basically 10 demos. Because at that time, I wasn't, I don't know about fit life. So I didn't get to go to play parties or anything like that. Okay. How did it evolve for you? Well, I've seen, I got more members came into the leather that also were part of fit life, the community on fit life. And said, there's a couple of play parties come along. I realized I'm a big boy. It's like, the boy wasn't for me. It's a huge turn. And it's like, it's everything going for me. I love being a boy. And I was observed people getting waxed play, I've observed needle play, I've observed flogging, I've observed a guy rope at the same time or at a play party. And I am very, very shy, as you probably know, Doug. I'm very, very shy. And I also, I'm not very confident as well. I realized that I need to do something about my confidence, particularly body confidence. So I was tempted to do the needles. I was curious about doing the wax and doing the needles. And I thought, maybe just a bit much to do both in one evening. But I just, I don't know what it is about myself. I am to this day, I don't have the body confidence to just or the confidence to just explore myself, even though I've been into many dungeons, being a boy and watching people and going, that looks, you know, being interested, but actually physically do it finding a big challenge there. I do remember when visiting Cape Town that the scene was very small. I did find though that a couple of the bars there, I recall a bar called Amsterdam, is that right? That's right. Yeah. And I recall at least there was some social outlet, but not a lot. There was, there was, I was there for the leather and king community, but the big, big, but is that it was strictly for men only. If you were gender non-conforming, non-binary trans, a woman, you weren't allowed in. And that was a big, a big issue. Since then, I think it's closed down. So unfortunately, that's no longer. Tell us how you began to explore blacking. Well, that started around about 2015, December 2015, our first contest where we had our first miss essay letter and a whole bunch of some title holders from the US and Canada came over. And it was toward the end of the contest, the last, the Sunday of the contest. And I noticed there was, on the far end of the swimming pool, there was Patty and Ray, and Ray Mian, and yeah, we're all talking in a little corner. I was like, very curious. Now, what is going on here? Yeah. And then they call me over. And I noticed in Patty's hands, there was a buplek stand. And, and basically they were talking to me about how they wanted to actually raffle it off, but they didn't want to do that because the trans is going to land up in somebody's closet and not going to be used. They're probably going to just sit somewhere back in the somebody's cupboard. And they wanted to get somebody that they felt would actually do something with it. And funny enough, June, July, 2014, where Leslie came over to Africa to do childcare, I think, and she was very kind enough to do a buplek workshop. And that's when I, I felt like, I don't know if you've experienced where everything's just stand still and, you know, you just transmits to one person from whatever they're saying, their hand movement, their body language, everything. I was watching Leslie like that. I was like, 30 spellbound. And now I said, yeah, okay, that evening. I think I'm going to be a first buplek at that evening. So fast forward to that contest weekend. Patty's standing there with the arm around my shoulder, saying these amazing things. To this day, I can't remember what I actually often think back to that, that day, I actually can't remember what he said to me, but I knew at the time, it was just like, a light bulbs are getting off the wall to standing still again. It's like, this is it. This is what my, my you're calling my calling into the leather community part where it could be. And so they gave me this kit. It had some polish, a brush, some cloths. And then Patty put me in contact with Dara and Dara Bryant. And that February, I think it was February. We had our first buplek scotchet. And that's the history basically. So that's my introduction to buplek. I'm very fortunate. Leslie Anderson is family to me. And I have seen her touch so many people and bring so many people into the bupleking part of the community. It's beautiful. Yeah, it was really, really special. And I've been wanting to come back to the U.S. and actually spend time with Leslie. I know the last time I was at IMSL, it was 2019. And I've got to speak with Leslie briefly a couple of times, but not actually sit down and talk again. So I would love to get back to Chicago and actually spend some time with her. Tell us a little bit about how you began bupleking on your own? On my own. Well, as I was having these Skype chats with Dara and she was teaching me, you know, teaching me things as I go along. I basically got hold of some really old South African Army boots. And using what Dara was teaching me and applying it to those boots, so that as I went along, I was practising or learning on South African boots. And then also when I got confident, then I said to Yakuya, I want to do a workshop. And I did my first public boot blacking at a workshop for the Asia and the community. That was about six months after my first Skype chat with Dara. Now, most boot blacks I know are very partial to specific products. Do you have specific products that you insist on using? Well, the thing is in South Africa, we only basically have two, maybe three brands to choose from. It's Kiwi. And we've got a brand called Nugget, Lion. I don't even remember in South Africa, they had Lion matches and stuff. But now they actually make shoe polish. And then there's another brand that I found on Instagram called Rhino. But they're very much very high in petroleum based, I don't know if you smell polish, but it's got the very high petroleum, almost like a petroleum gas smelter, like petrol gas smelter, which I know is not exactly the best thing to have in a polish. But I was actually very much at the beginning, a whole bunch of boot blacks put together a kit for me and set me a whole lot of Angelus. And I never got my hands off of some Lincoln. And I fell in love with Angelus and Lincoln. So I don't really even look at South African brands anymore. I really like Angelus and Lincoln. So when I do boot black, I obviously ask the person who I'm sitting for, or sitting, sitting for me, sorry, which brand I prefer between Lincoln and Angelus. But I really like Angelus. Now I remember when I was there, seeing your tech boot. Yes. And I remember being very impressed with that. Is that from the boots that you mentioned a few moments ago? No, this completely different pair of boots. It's, I got, they were actually brown South African army boots. And I died then. And out of my tech boots, it was completely different to what you experience at IMSL. I had a week to actually work on it. Where's IMSL at half an hour. So I turned them from black and brown to black. And I tried to give them the best shine and get rid of all the nicks and scrap and scratches and stuff, especially that couldn't in that week. Now, how do you see your evolution from your first attempts at boot blacking to where you could do such quality work? How did that evolve? What's the matter of confidence? I think that there's a matter of confidence in what I've been taught and actually apply it and actually confidence in it. I think it's the confidence factor. At the beginning, I was very unsure what am I doing right. I wanted to make a good impression on Dara. I wanted to make sure that I'm doing things correctly. But I think Dara's got a very unique way of teaching that maybe feel confident in myself. And we've got a lot of reassurance and a lot of you can do this. And at the end, by the time I got to the contest, I was very confident in what my skill set was and actually applying it. For the international audience who may not know, would you please explain who Dara is? Dara Bryant is the International Miss Boot Black 2014. There has been very much, quite a lot involved in the international Miss Boot Black contest for a few years now. There is very much a title holder and she goes beyond being a title holder in terms of teaching and being involved in the community in terms of IMSL. Do you still, for example, Skype with people or get on Zoom like this in order to keep improving your skills? Well, I've done a few Skype chats with my fellow siblings from my childhood. And we often have Skype chats where we be black and together online and show what we've done. And they show what they've done and we compare and sort of like what did you do there and how did you do that? And so when I was last in the US, I went to, I was in Seattle for a while with Bo Black, who was one of my siblings. And we spent, I think, a good week, a good five or seven days straight where we sat until three o'clock in the morning, be blacking and I was learning things from Bo. Bo was like, how do you do that? So that's what I've done. That's why one of my purposes of actually coming back that year was to actually speak to as many people as possible and be black as much as I can so that I can actually maintain my skill level as well as doing something new. Now, how has the community in South Africa received you as far as your work? Well, at the beginning, my workshops were well attended. When we did have events, I took the opportunity to be black at them. So every time we had an event, I had the chance to be black. I have offered them to say, if you have a vest or a pair of pants or boots or whatever, you know, contact me. So I have kept that channel of communication open in terms of saying I'm here to be black. That's wonderful to hear. I notice in Europe, sometimes there's a bit of a disconnect. So I think some people are a little bit like, this is Malia that do I trust you? I don't know. But I try to tell them or reassure them, look, I know what I'm doing. You can watch me do it if you like, right now in front of you. We don't want me to take it home with me. So yeah, I try to keep as honest and open communication with the people that I was in contact with at the time. But it must be a little bit difficult for you being the sole proprietor without a lot of boot black community support. Yeah, it is because I'm the first. There's my responsibility to teach somebody to how to be black and get them involved and then get a third person involved in developing a chain of people to actually have a community in South Africa. Because at the moment, it's not a culture in South Africa to be going having your boots to be a shoeshine. It's not like at the airports in America. Every airport I went to, there was like a few blacks doing or shoeshiders doing anything. In South Africa, there's no culture of boot blacking or shoe shining. So it is very difficult to actually try and educate people to let them know what it is in terms of this issue shining, make things look pretty and shiny and stuff. But there's also the leather and the kinky side to it as well. So to try and educate people to know what it is and for them to actually, oh, okay, maybe I should actually get involved. It's very difficult. I found it very, very difficult, especially when our community here is very, very small. And I actually said to Una, who is the second Miss Ese Leather, I said to her, maybe we should contact the organizers of the play parties and actually say, can I have my stand there to actually try and catch somebody's eye? Do you think that it may pick up at some point? I hope. Yeah, I've tried so hard. Doug, it's been, it's like, I've always seen my time, kind of feeling. But I feel so passionate about it because it felt like family, it's not community, which I wanted and needed. I felt at home, I had fellow leather people around where I could talk about some things and it's not there anymore. So it's very frustrating when nobody, there's no communication. And that's what I found extremely frustrating. The circumstances here in North America are so different from that. Well, I find it so open and more open and more there. You've got, like in Seattle, you've got the cuff and it's right there. It's not some corner bar, some hiding somewhere. It's there. The community's there. It's very much underground. And I think maybe, I was actually thinking about it before we started this chat. I think people in South Africa a lot of are afraid to actually let other people know that they are into BSM or King or some sort of fetish because they might affect their work life or their family members don't know. And then they find out and then they've got to deal with that. So I think lots of people keep it quiet and keep it not seen. And it makes me sad because it's hard to actually attract people when they're scared. Yes. Yes. How do you feel things may open up again after COVID restrictions end? Or do you? I think the play parties will start up again. I think lots of people will still be nervous, but I think there will be some people that will, once everybody's vaccinated, things will pick up again. I think. How attended are these play parties? Is there a good crowd? The last time, the last one I went to, there must have been at least 30, 40 people. Oh, okay. Yeah, there must have been. There was a lot of people. There was, yeah, I'm all right. There was about 30 or 40 people and spread out throughout this house. I mean, they converted their garage into a play room. They converted the briar area into a play room. The swimming pool was open. So you could, you know, it was just in somebody's house and it was great because it was like 40 people. The house is full of people. It was like a social area, people doing rope and it was fun. The other one is also attracts at least 30 people at a time. I think they're also restricted so that everybody's not on top of each other, so they've got space. So yeah, I think it averages around by 30 to 40 people at a time. So for the international audience, would you please explain a bri? Although I know it. A bri is basically a barbecue. So it's the Afrikaans word for bri is for barbecue is bri. Okay. Yeah, I think some people would not know this. Well, the full word is bri place, which is, you know, but it's everybody short and said to bri. Generally boot blacking is a skill that's mentored that is taught generation to generation in the community. How are you doing that? Well, I started teaching. I think, yeah, somehow it fizzled that unfortunately. I would think it would be completely sad if the South African boot blacking stopped with you. That's what that's the sad part because I've spent two years of Skype chats with Dara Bryant. And I learned so much from Dara and I'm truly grateful to Dara. I really am. And I really don't want my skill level to drop either. And I would love for things to bloom again, because boot blacking is such a nice way, a different way to connect with somebody when they sit with you. So it's, I would be very upset if things just stopped. As a boot black, what's been your greatest challenge? Challenge is finding the right products. Because before I was denoted with stuff to find the right length shoe lace bootlaces was an issue. The simple thing is bootlaces. I mean, really, the finding different color polishes is a mission in South Africa. I mean, you get tan, brown, and black. I mean, in the U.S., you've got oxblood and cordovan and blue and red. And it's like, it's not fair. I mean, you've got access to different dyes, different color dyes, different equipments. And South Africa is trying to find, it's like trying to find a needle in a haystack. There was my biggest frustration at the beginning. And thank goodness, like I said at the beginning of the chat, for other boot blacks that donated to me, because if I didn't have those tools, I don't know how I would have actually been able to have the confidence enough to actually say, I'm going to go and compete with International Miss Boot Black, when I don't have the tools. I mean, the right tools and the right polishes and brushes and trying to, even a brush, it's just, it was trying to find the right brushes, because in South Africa, the stuff that you find in markers is basically not coarsier brushes, but these horrible, almost like plastically kind of brussels that will obviously not be suited to bootlacking. It's not freely available. There was my one of my first biggest frustrations. Where do you see yourself in five to 10 years? Hopefully living in the U.S., to be honest. We still got after four years of since we competed, our sibling group is still very much connected. The last time I was in the U.S., I spent six weeks in the U.S., and I went from Seattle to Portland to Los Angeles to Colorado Leather Fist and be able to bootlack there and make so many connections with other people. And so, me and Bo, in particular, are very, very close and Bo's just moved to New Orleans, and I want to try and follow and go and move into immigrant. I don't know how, it's probably going to take a while to get there, but I want to see myself in the U.S. with the community that I miss and living a new life, basically. From my perspective, I think that you're sort of a salmon trying to go upstream with being sort of a sole proprietor in South Africa. Right. I think, how do you keep from burning out with that situation? I just persevere. Again, not working and not to try to get myself worked up or angry or upset. I just stay back for a while and then I pick up again. Like I said, I'm really much a fighter in terms of something that I believe and I want to be part of and feel passionate about. I will pursue it continuously. So it's not, I won't back down. I know I won't back down. I'm going to pursue and try and make it work and try to get my confidence up to get out there and do something, not be so shy about myself and I should just go ahead and make it happen. That's amazing, truly. You know, Fiona, I absolutely hope that your efforts in South Africa are going to bring more community forward. The South African community was so beautiful when I had the chance to visit. I hope we will see that begin to come back after the COVID restrictions. I hope so too. Don't tell me do. Well, Fiona, thank you very much for participating in Inside Other History of fireside chat. Pleasure seeing you again.