 Could I just add two points to your question? First of all, I like agree. And I think it's a really good point. But just continue to put on this newsletter hat. I think something I'm observing is newsletters are increasingly mimicking some of that personalization that you like in podcasts. Like if you observe who sends the newsletter over time, maybe you notice it starts to be the person. You know that there's an actual name, and there's a profile photo, and it's signed, and it's in first person versus second or third. So I think that there's some antennas that are going off in response to that. And then the second thing to your point is I wonder how much of it has to do with the fact that the model used to be a lot for news gathering was a reporter going out into the field. And now that is more about having a two-way conversation, oftentimes digitally. And so figuring out how to package that, it would be a really interesting thing to consider. Anyway, thank you. Yes, go ahead. Can you say your name and the organization we'll let you with, please? My name is John Huang. I'm with an agency called Lanium. Can you give a little bit of context why Newsletter is such a better engagement platform? Maybe I missed it, but Newsletter is just being described as, oh, that's... It's not a holy grail. No, but could you explain the unpacking for somebody who's not sure why Newsletter is all of a sudden being talked as almost equated as a great engagement platform? So could you explain that for us? Sure. So Newsletters are useful because I think they speak to one of the points that the first question was in that you can curate the news that you're interested in more specifically. So rather than like a news alert even where you're gonna get all the breaking news alerts, if you're interested in one particular aspect of a certain subject that a news organization provides, you can get that specific newsletter. So I think it addresses a handful of different points that we're all interested in right now, which are things that are like niche and they're also succinct. I think we're looking for things that are easy as consumers, so that we can quickly access. And then on top of it, it's like a one-time sign up, so you do it once and then you're in. So I think, and it's also interesting, one thing I've seen is that some newsletters have built their own communities. I went to the panel this morning about community building and how we think about that, but there's one called Girls Night In, I think, that I was following where it's turned into a book club and they have meetups and it's all generated from a newsletter where women decided that they would share resources about what to do when you decide to stay in on your Friday night. Does that answer your question? Like is this a common practice or is this a? Well also when you look at the means of engaging with somebody, you have your website, social email and events, right? That kind of like, it invents being in real life, right? So would we look at it in those four ways? I think also this might just be missing too. And the numbers aren't super fresh for me, but I think it's just that it's worked too, like that newsletters have been sort of a bright spot in engagement where a lot of other metrics have kind of been looking shakier and shakier. Email newsletters have been surprisingly resilient, so people have subscribed to them. The open rates are pretty good. They're good real estate for ads. Advertisers look out on them more favorably than display ads. I just wanted to put that out there. So there's also, I'm gonna take this moment to, Shorenstein Center has a tool that Jackie Baltic developed. Correct. That I actually used one night. I'm not, I'm tech savvy, but I know just enough to be dangerous and I actually set up Anaconda and ran this thing, which was bizarre, but it's amazing what happens when you can follow directions. And it shows you your basically subscriber rate, like your volume and how many people open, so like frequency, it's like a little heat map. So it really tells you who your loyal audience is and who your sometime audience is and how involved your audience is if they subscribed over the past month. And it's the website, it's the newsletter data that MailChimp does not give you just by looking at your deliverability and your open and clicks and things like that. So I highly recommend, if you wanna completely geek out for a moment, to examine that. And then you'll get a sense over time of really how what your audience seriously looks like. And it was pretty eye opening. I mean, it's definitely something, newsletters are something that are typically, I mean, there's some that are premium that you pay for, but then oftentimes they're free. And the idea is if you're expanding out the funnel of people who are consuming your news, then if you keep them on, you hook them and they're loyal, they might then end up subscribing and being members of your organization. And then from a nonprofit world, and Harry, I don't know if this bears out for a city bureau too, is the folks that are most likely to donate to InjusticeWatch are folks who get our email newsletters. So that's... And I should clarify that I've mainly been working with nonprofit news organizations when I'm looking at newsletters. And anybody else? Hi, I'm an editor for a digital travel site. And we talked a little bit at the beginning about how traditional click ads and banner ads are dying out. Those obviously aren't engaging the audience. I'm wondering like what you guys have found is taking their place or creative kind of nuances, the frontrunner and kind of what's replacing that for the digital editorial space? One thing that's been fun to see is how, like I see this a lot in newsletters where there can be product recommendations. That seems to be something that used to be if you were in a magazine, it would be like the top 10 gear for your bike or something that that's something I see now is that sort of thing or sponsorships or affiliated links, things where you can give a shout out to a partner organization, something I see. Yeah, I would agree. Before I worked at CityUri, one of my roles was to sell ads for a small local publication. And I think we're glossing a lot when we talk about the kind of decline of the ad economy. I think especially for hyper-local publications, for niche publications, there is a pretty robust ad economy and that at the very least it's much stronger than the kind of big picture aggregate numbers. So that's one piece. I also think there is sort of a shift to sponsorship like that same publication that I worked with is starting to repackage some of its marketing options into something that looks more like sponsorship because they're realizing they tend to do business with a particular kind of local business and it is actually more than just purchasing space. They also sometimes turn down ads that aren't gonna be interesting or helpful to readers. And so thinking about instead of just display ads as purchasing space, ways that that can be presented as a relationship that has a lot of different touch points in, is not an endorsement but is a statement from the advertiser about their interest in the reader through the lens of the publication. I think there's a lot of potential there too. My name's Kat Friederke. I run two news projects at Yale. I wanted to respond to what you said about newsletters and also what you were seeing about automation. We were experimenting with the bot earlier and what we found is that actually, despite the sort of hype around bots and that people are really into them in some ways, we found that actually adding newsletter features plus using Qualtrics, which has a lot of features within it, actually would work better for what we were talking about than using a bot. So this is just an example of us experimenting. We found that newsletters plus Qualtrics work better. What was the actual experiment? What were you? Oh, this has to do with some dialogue that we're doing to broaden the dialogue around energy efficiency and solar power to rural parts of America. That sounds so cool. What did the bot do? Sorry, just because I have a lot of thoughts about how newsletters could be better and maybe I'm wrong, but if you tried something. Well, essentially the bot was going to engage in dialogue with readers. So what we would do is we would use the newsletter to direct the reader to the bot and then the reader would have some dialogue there about specifically the state where they live and so we were determining the questions, et cetera, and experimenting. And what we found is that Qualtrics actually is something that we've been using before and actually worked better and was more versatile in terms of getting the information that we're looking for and also going back and forth. Yeah, and just to clarify, I love newsletters. I just keep thinking, like we have a really interesting one at the inquire that goes out every morning. It's called like the morning edition. And there's like 24 stories in it, right? And like my product brain just wants to be able to be like, I wanted that one. I didn't want that one. I wanted this one and just like shrink it up to the like 10 essential stories that I would want. 24 is a lot. I was just like, I stopped at eight. Yeah, totally fair. But I just, I think that there are like some really interesting like additional product features that could kind of take newsletters, even, you know, make them even more successful. So, absolutely. Yeah, there's good and bad. Yeah, sure. Are there other questions? Cause, so one that I had, while you're all thinking about your next questions, one that I had was resources. Because when we were talking about like, I hear focus groups and people gave us feedback about like their button and I'm like, oh, wow, that would be so awesome if we had the time or money to afford that kind of interaction. I know like when you have an experimental group, but then also, then you're talking evaluations. And it's like, did you get professional consultants to come in and say, these are the questions you want to ask, because that's what you were talking about too, when you had your consultant about, this is your project, this is what you want to think about, this is what you want to, and you need three people to figure out how to measure it. And then how do you know you're asking the right questions? Do you need outside help with that as well? Cause it's hard to wear a lot of hats. And if you want to take a hat off, it's going to cost money. Well, one thing that has been really, this is like a tangential side answer. This is not an excellent answer, but it's been neat to see how, like cross-pollination and collaboration, like the, you know, just talking about the work that City Bureau has been doing in different places, or INN, you know, or even like the way Lundfest has been doing really neat things, I know. It seems like that's a way to maybe deal with that lack of bandwidth to some extent, is partnering and kind of divide and conquer that way, or get feedback. I don't know, but I just think that's like a neat thing to see what could happen if we were able to do more things like this, where people come out and share ideas openly and willingly. Yeah, I mean, I think that qualitative research I think can be less expensive than it can appear. The way that we launched our surveys was through Google Forms, which is free and available to everybody. And to be honest, the folks who helped us understand that initial kind of like bar of success, useful and interesting, working of researchers within our parent organization, so those people kind of like should exist, right? Like in some organization having research or user experience folks, so you can kind of lean on them and ask them to kind of collaborate and cross pollinate. Sometimes they're not getting asked those types of questions by folks. In terms of the analytics team that we hired here at Digital, again, those disciplines typically do exist inside an organization, right? There is somebody who's implementing analytics. Depending on how big the organization is. Yeah, it's just carving out that time to have a little bit of fun and think about what you might wanna measure. And whether or not people within your organization's metrics kind of complement or work against one another. Like an example I can think of as a product manager from USA Today was we would look at the traffic, the number of push notifications that we were sending would drive traffic up for editorial. So they would send a bunch of breaking news alerts and then kind of you get your consistent set of pages. But if we sent too many alerts we couldn't really prove this because metrics are hard sometimes people were deleting the app or turning notifications off because of that frequency, right? So that was an instance where your metrics are actually like at odds. And there was never kind of this holistic view of like which metrics are we all working towards and how can we build products and create content that are like complimentary in that respect. So I guess when I work in small labs we can control that ourselves. But when you kind of go into a bigger organization it's really difficult to get people to talk about you know a collective set of metrics that are meaningful. This, I think City Viewer is coming from a slightly different place because we're a startup we have a very small team and I think a strong case that a lot of people care about in what we're trying to do but we've asked for help like constantly along the way and we have a really big network at this point and a lot of those connections have started because we asked for help. And I think we found that those were really good foundations for relationships that we've built on. And so I think especially for smaller outlets or for community media I would not underestimate the willingness of the public to step up and make a contribution. I think people feel in some cases a lot better about that than just say giving money and it can be hard to coordinate it can be hard to organize. I think we gotta be real about when it makes sense to do but that's been a huge asset for us. We've also collaborated a lot but not in the sense of just kind of a free for all like we've I think been very intentional about the kinds of collaborations that we've done and tried to understand like what we're providing and what we can do uniquely well that fits into somebody else's strategy and also why what they will bring for us and why they're a great person to play that role and it doesn't make sense for us to go out and recreate the wheel. Yeah, exactly. So basically don't be afraid to ask for help on your network. Yeah, and also I think be very know your organization well and collaborate intentionally rather than kind of I don't think we collaborate just for collaboration sake we wanna use that as a way we build relationships by doing real good work together. Anybody else questions? So Carrie you were talking about you mentioned previously the experiments that are run by Shorenstein Center and LEMFAST. How do news organizations get involved? How do we find academic or philanthropic partners to help get break through some of these questions or barriers? So I think I would love to hear what both of you think about this as well because I think you have perspectives on this but off the bat I think kind of staying in the conversation by subscribing to a handful of news outlets that are covering this I think that's one way to kind of keep in the know about when there are grant applications like News Match is an example of a great one but I think it's also just helpful to show up. Like I'm sure being in an event like this you're just engaging other organizations you didn't know about and it puts you on that radar and it just kind of tumbles onward but I imagine you both have thoughts about that too. I mean I'm quite new at LEMFAST and LEMFAST as an organization is relatively new but we do lots of traditional things so kind of get a Twitter account and be constantly posting about things to open source grants or kind of grant calls. But yeah to be honest that was kind of a challenge for us at The Guardian. We were doing a lot of good work in a tiny office in the financial district and oftentimes your outlet is to post things we would post things on medium so it was a really easy publication to kind of spin up and get out there. But we did lots of other things. We would you know do hacksackers workshops and you know we were fortunate enough to be able to go to a lot of conferences and kind of speak about our work and maybe it's just about not being afraid to come up and talk to folks afterwards and kind of ask them questions because I found that over time in my career like it is just an investment of time to find your collaborators and kind of find people who also are interested in kind of growing their careers and growing their experience. And I find out about a lot of things through our company Slack channel right. So if you've got four or five or six people who are all keeping their eyes out for these things then we kind of show them in there and I mean that's like half my day could just be reading our Slack channel which is like part of the problem. There's too many great things happening. So yeah I think it's easy. You just have to be looking for it and find your kind of like-minded people. And foundations do fund for-profit organizations as well. It's just not a non-profit party so. I was hesitating a little bit on this question because the question is just like how to get plugged in. There are a lot of great newsletters out there pretty much every foundation that's taking this problem seriously is putting a lot of thought into it and is writing publicly. They're really interesting. They're really rich resources. But I also think that there is a lot at stake in what's being funded and how it's being funded and even just the idea of philanthropy funding journalism when it is this kind of strange hybrid market right now where you have these massive media companies some of which are outright and explicitly managing decline. So I think we should keep that in mind too and I know people in this room are coming from many different perspectives on that question. But especially for funders or grant makers who are approaching this question. I think we, especially people in community media should be making an adversarial case about some of these funding practices because if outlets really are thinking of this in terms of managing decline and trying to maximize profits irregardless of the experience of the readers or what the consequences are for a public good then I don't think we should be putting public resources or philanthropic resources into it. And just being able to think about that as part of the conversation I think is really important. That's part of the funding as well. It's almost a prerequisite that says we're gonna do this because you are going to release your findings or you're going to contribute back to the community in a certain way. Also one of the programs that I ran at INN I actually collaborated with Rich Gordon at Northwestern and we took five INN sites who volunteered to turn over access to their Google analytics and their MailChimp stuff. And we essentially did an audience development assessment and plan for these five sites. So regardless of where you're at if you have a journalism school or maybe a computer science school kind of thing is partnering with them calling up a professor and say hey do you have a bunch of students who wanna dig into my analytics and help me figure out the answer to this question. And you'll probably find some takers I would imagine. So any other questions? And Steph, what's our time? We're on five to five time minutes? Okay. Anybody else? Did you guys have anything to add? Well I have questions for you. There you go. I'd be curious to know if any of you are doing experiments that you're interested in sharing. Okay. Do you have any questions around are you doing something that you may be hitting a wall on that you might want some feedback on? Okay, so we've been experimenting with newsletters a lot and one of the things that we've done is we've made a site for each of the NFL teams. And so on the newsletters page we also give the user the option to sign up for maybe another team. So kind of the interconnection or interconnecting of different sites. It's not just linking to it but maybe giving people an option to sign up on other sites. So yeah, that's worked pretty well for us. Cool. Is it a sign up box? Yeah, so when you type in your email there's a little area below it says, oh, do you want to sign up for anything else? Or after you sign up, it's like it will kind of gray out that checkbox and say, okay, well, if you want to sign up for anything else, just let us know. We kind of also group everything together so we're not going to send you like crazy amounts of email. So that way you can subscribe to several things and you get only a fair, not too many emails. So separate research has gone to that as well. So we keep on changing our strategy. Yeah. That's great. Cool. This is for the USA Today Sports team. So yeah, if you have any questions. Are you tracking at all kind of the, how long people stay on to each newsletter and whether or not it was like the primary newsletter that they signed up for or the secondary? Can I keep an eye on that over time? Yeah. Usually people will sign up for a single site and then it wasn't until we were, it wasn't until we linked people to that newsletter landing page that, and then the nav bar until we started seeing like that multiple sign up, but we've been looking into possibly saying, hey, you're subscribed to this. Maybe you can subscribe to something else. We also just launched an app called Sportswire. So essentially, let's say you hear about it from Cowboyswire, right? And you download the app. You also have the option to say, oh, hey, here's all the other teams you could be informed on. So that way you only get notifications on the teams that you're interested in. Yeah, so we've been expanding to things like basketball and that kind of stuff or specific players and yeah, it's been working pretty well. Yeah, no, I think that's great. I used to work at USA Today. And I remember kind of, I love the way that you're surfacing options like much more contextually for alerts, right? So a couple of years ago, you could sign up for all these categories for notifications like life and business and sports and that type of thing. And this is not just USA Today. It's most apps kind of buried in a settings section whereas just something as simple as surfacing it on sports story about that particular team. It seems like the right place to do it and it's respectful of time and kind of captures people who you know are already interested in something. So I think that's a great way to approach it. Yeah, and I think there's other interesting things out there like browser notifications, you know? We've been playing with that and when you publish an article, you have the option to, oh, you can also share this with anybody who has the notifications set up for their Chrome browser so they actually see it on their desktop. So there's so many like notification things out there that yeah, you wanna, it's almost like you don't wanna make it too easy to notify people or else you know you get that kind of spam thing going on, yeah. Do you guys have any like the New York Times has kind of their open blog just because you guys are doing kind of some things on the edge that people could learn from? Do you have plans to kind of write about the results from those types of things or is that part of what you? Yeah, we do, but it's, we don't have an official blog, I'm not sure. I know we write about it somewhere but yeah, I need to look into that, yeah. Well, just to Caroline's point, like people are doing such amazing work and you could spend all day just reading about everybody else's work and I think that that's what sites like betternews.org is trying to do kind of like give you a way in to kind of all of these resources but it's really challenging. So to have one more kind of voice on how the results are going from that I think would be really useful for the industry. Yeah, I'll look into that, thanks. Betternews.org, I just wrote that down. Yeah, yeah. Can I ask a question really quick? I know I am the mic person. So there are a lot of people in the room here who are either part of an agency or they are developers who are kind of supporting a newsroom in some way and by the time the work gets to them especially with an agency it's either on billable hours or very limited time and sometimes by the time the project gets to, you know, the folks in this room they just have to make a quick decision and just get moving because it doesn't feel like you're delivering results unless you're actively building something. Any advice on how to run experiments to make sure that your final product is as the best it can be on a very limited, very expensive, you know, limited time frame? Sir, is the question how to do, how to learn things quickly and build good products without spending a lot of money because newsrooms budgets are constrained and they only kind of want to pay for things that they can like see immediately, is that? So I think, I mean there are folks from agencies that can speak to this better than I can but usually by the time an agency is brought into a newsroom they just have a limited window to execute, you know, versus an internal team with like David's team he might be given a little more leeway to just figure stuff out over the course of a couple months. You might not be able to do that when you're brought in. Can I ask a question again? How in a situation like that in the meetings leading up to it are there like the org meetings that kind of go through exactly how the workflow so that they understand why they're doing what they're doing? Does that make sense? Any agencies want to speak up? Hi, I'm Libby Barker, I'm a senior project manager at Human Made. We work with a lot of clients like USA Today. Oftentimes unless we have a pre-existing partnership with a client, like we kind of work collaboratively with USA Today a lot so we have an understanding of if we're brought into a project, the backstory, the context of a project but when a decision is made prior to us being brought in or brought into complete something those conversations are not always clear so I think what Steph is asking is how as agencies do we better coordinate in those types of situations when the decision has been made and an agency may be brought in because an internal team doesn't have the bandwidth to deliver in a short timeframe. So how do we get from that decision and all the context kind of mind-belted into the agency? Is that clarifying? Yeah, okay. Do any of you want to take this? I've good experience on both sides and I'm currently working with an agency who's like our web dev team and I from where you're sitting, I don't know that there are many options once you've been given a baked idea and given this much time to execute because they have to go to market. The your real opportunity for change and impact is the next conversation of hi, we are doing this right now and we will do our best. We are more valuable to you and you will get more bang for your buck from us if we're involved early on, right? That's what you're seeking and then you need to address, now I'm your partner, now I'm thinking if I start talking to you at the beginning is that when the clock starts ticking and that's when you start charging me so that by the time we're into development that I'm already five, 10, 20 valuable hours into the project. So that's a pain point for them that you would need to address but I'm with you as being on this side of the client side is that I seek agencies who are interested in being partners but I want to know what I can do for myself like tell me what I can do for myself and how I can get the highest value from you. That's the other thing as well. So like the web team that I'm working with they're like if you know how to put in a WordPress plugin go ahead, you go to this point and then call us in and we'll hook up Google Analytics to figure out how to do X, Y, and Z. So having that sort of conversation to lay their fears about incurring too many costs. Does anybody want to, did that answer your question? Did that get to? Yeah, it's just that you're limited once you get it. I mean, you can't, otherwise you're asking 18,000 questions that get into what was the thought process here? What's your goal? What's your, right, right, right, right. Yeah, okay, yes, no, that's fine. Does anybody else have a? I was just going to extend it a little bit that we, I think at Citibere we've learned a huge amount about project management from looking at how developers do their work and part of that was having developers on our board early and thinking about some of the tools that we needed. So I just think there is a really interesting overlap and I think it is possible. I know that's not helpful, we're just putting more work on your plate but I think a lot of that should be if the conditions are at a really productive conversation. I think journalists and media organizations can and should learn a lot from how software developers work. Just one really, really quick thing I guess is just that those are really tense situations, right, of course and I think that like a little bit of honesty and like transparency helps because what I immediately came to mind is having like a very well-defined like statement of work, right, at the beginning and those are the people who are negotiating this deal kind of need to be very clear about what you can deliver in a certain timeframe so that is an important step but maybe something that I would try would be just being very human and saying, listen, here's like the 10 things that we would have liked to have known before starting this project but we don't have time to do them. So here's what we know and here's what we can deliver and maybe next time we can work on so it's very similar to what Sherry was saying maybe next time we can kind of start a little bit in advance because people sometimes don't understand how transformative like user research can be until they've had a chance to go through it, right? So, yeah, and I'd love to talk about that a little bit more offline and share like another anecdote from my team, but yeah. I just thought of something that might be helpful too that we've learned at City Bureau so we're not just extracting from developers. We've got, we go hard on templates because we have to partner with a lot of people we have, they're not exactly clients but we have a different guest speaker for every single public newsroom so every single week there's a new stakeholder and very different work styles, different organizations. We have like a checklist that people have to check off and things that they sign and we really try to walk people through that and I think that could be really, it saved us a ton of work. It saved us a lot of staff time if just being able to hand somebody a template for like please check these boxes before we sign a statement of work. Yeah, that's really central to our practice now. And there's a quick question. Which organizations do you look to for inspiration? So examples of media organizations that are doing really cool work or they're doing really cool work with experiments or anything like that. That's a fun question. That's a great one. Everybody. I think one organization that is maybe worth watching a little bit more closely is the Wall Street Journal. It's kind of an untraditional answer but we collaborated a lot with them kind of at the Guardian and they were really open to, they did exact, they got plugged in, right? They were kind of going to all of these events and they have a lot of editorial leadership that has moved over kind of into the product side and we ran some experiments with them around their kind of live business blogs where we, it's kind of this inline notification thing because you guys have probably all seen a live blog and it's going on for hours or days and you kind of pop in in the middle and then as you read updates come in but there's just like a little bar and it says there's like eight updates but you don't know what those updates are so is it worth like going up to see the top or do you want to stay where you are, et cetera, whatever? But so they saw that they wanted to improve their live coverage and they saw that we were doing a lot of research in that area and kind of found us and ran an experiment and put kind of a live survey into their live blog saying like, how's this going for you? Like, do you like this experimental feature? And you had business reporters who had worked for 20, 30, 40 years at the Wall Street Journal getting so excited logging into the Google form and seeing like pie charts changing from red to blue to green. So like one thing I would advocate for is kind of like giving journalists or like people on your team access to live feedback from real people and it turned into them actually building something into their tool that said like, did you like this story? Yes or no or something? They put it, it's replicable now and you can put it on any piece of content at the journal. So I kind of, I appreciated their approach because that's not kind of how a lot of news organizations tend to approach their product development. So I'll think of other kind of smaller and scrappier things while everyone else talks but I do love the journal. I think they have a lot of good projects and a good mindset. I think Xavier, we could take that question in a lot of different directions. We look a lot at other media organizations and in particular the history of it and have tried to be sort of students of the history of journalism to understand what's happening. So pay a lot of attention to kind of industry practices. There are, our peers are sort of hard to identify but I think there's kind of an emerging group of organizations. I'm really interested in what the Bristol Cable's doing. In Bristol, England, they're a cooperatively run publication. They do a lot of kind of partner reporting where they'll have, I think they call them syndicating reporters but they'll partner a journalist with somebody who's interested in telling a story and have them work together. And I think there's, they're really cool experiments and we're following closely. There's a, Outlier Media in Detroit is a text message based new service for low income folks in Detroit, especially focused on property ownership, which is a big deal in the housing market in Detroit. The East Lansing Info is a hyper local kind of experimental approach. I could list more and I'm sure I'm leaving off some cool ones. We've also been really inspired by some youth media organizations. Youth Radio is a couple in Chicago, Yellow Collie especially, because I think that sense of people producing media that is both valuable to them and benefits them and also has an impact on the community, that's something that really started in youth media that we're just sort of taking into a more traditional journalism space. And then after that, if we really wanted to blow it up, we are also really interested in borrowing practices from totally different fields and industries. So I think our public newsroom and its sensibility has more in common with an open mic or a church service than it does with a lot of the events that journalism organizations are often putting on. Community organizing, we've borrowed a lot of practices. We regularly have public newsrooms with community organizers about their practices. We do asset mapping, for example. Public institutions, public libraries. We have a really good partnership with the Chicago Public Library, especially in certain neighborhoods. That's sort of the one really robust civic space that's out there and especially when there's a good branch manager, those are really powerful sites. So I think there's a lot of places where news and information is exchanged that we just typically don't really think of as being news or media, but that we could learn a lot from. So I have a suggestion of a newsletter for you, which is GroundSourced. I think it's GroundSourced, or Source. But the person there profiles each week, I think, and organizations that's doing something interesting. So that's something I would consider following to see some innovative practices. For me, I really enjoy watching one of my local news organizations that I follow is KPCC, which is a radio outlet in LA. And they recently purchased the LAist and have been doing some really cool things. Like I was listening last week and they asked for people to call in, they were totally merging the formats and asking people to call in about experiences they had and then they were gonna publish the stories in LAist. So it's a neat little hybrid thing. They also started working with Harkin too, correct? And Harkin is another one. And then I would say, this is just so fun, it keeps going. We have to wrap it up. Okay. I just have two more quick ones too. If anyone interested in civil... I was kind of into civil that one. Yeah, so the ZigZag podcast really kind of breaks it down. It's like two women who are kind of participating in civil but have been documenting their own process of working with civil and kind of the pros and cons and it's really accessible, which not all of the stuff out there about civil is right now. And I forgot to plug, it's Solutions Sat. So that is the newsletter that Yossi Lurkeman, my brilliant colleague puts out every week about one innovative thing that's happening in local news. So that's also a great one. And I would lastly say that I'm interested to see what happens with Chicagoist. Yes. Okay, chance to wrap up. And then also follow Shornecine Center, City Bureau and Lenfest. So thank you very much to our panelists. Thank you all very much.