 Thank you for being with us here tonight. It's a pleasure to be sitting with all of you alongside me, called Despite the Circumstances. To start, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and the custodians of the land, the war during war around people, and the war around people, and clear respects to others past and present. sovereignty never ceased, and this land always was, and always will be, Aboriginal land. And as a Palestinian, it's extremely important for me and for us to keep highlighting all the forms and shapes in which settler colonialism continues to impact colonized people and colonized land. My name's Noura, and we're meeting here today as we enter almost over two months of Israeli aggression and attacks on our people in Gaza. For the last two months since October 7, Israel has massacred over 18,000 Palestinians, 70% of whom are children and women. Targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure, including hospitals, schools, markets, libraries, you name it. No one is spared, no one is safe, and no place is safe in Gaza. I cannot make it tonight. For personal reasons, she is unwell, so she's a last minute apology. But what we will do tonight is that we will be in conversation with Niko. I'll ask a few questions, and then towards the end, we'll open the floor for questions from the audience. When that stage comes, I would like to ask you to keep your questions short, concise, and just not because I don't like to listen to analysis and essays and PhD dissertations, I do, but just trying to make sure everyone gets to contribute and participate so that we make it as engaging as possible for folks here. All right, so without any further ado, allow me to introduce our guest. Niko Bellet is an Israeli-American anti-Zionist peace activist, author, and corrupt instructor. Her clearest voice is calling for justice for Palestine. Niko's also a contributor to several online publications and has been invited to speak all over the world. Wherever he's speaking, Niko dedicates the opportunity to advocate for the creation of one democratic state with equal rights for Israelis and Palestinians. He travels regularly to Palestine when he speaks and works with the BDS movement and other justice groups. So welcome and thank you, Niko, for being here tonight. The 7th of October has been categorized by many as a turning point, as a pivotal historical moment. I guess my first question would be what implications this state has for Israelis and Palestinians? Obviously, we know how it's been working for Palestinians. But more specifically, what implications does it have for the Israeli politics and how would that also translate in terms of the Palestinians inside and outside Israel 1948? Does this work? Yes. Well, thank you, everyone, for being here. Thank you for the invitation to be here at Melbourne. It's a pleasure to be here once again after 2011. And it's good to see so many people gather wanting to talk about Palestine. So it's very encouraging, especially when we're so far away in a place so distant. And still, there's such a sincere desire to learn and to participate in the conversation about Palestine. And thank you for the introduction and for doing this with me. October the 7th, for anyone who's involved in the issue of Palestine, October the 7th is one of those dates that we will always remember exactly where we were when we heard about this. And it was a watershed moment. There's no question. What actually happened was a group of fighters from one of the poorest and most oppressed regions in the world flew in on gliders, came by sea on small vessels, and walked across the prison fence, and were able to occupy almost half of Palestine. 22 Israeli cities and settlements were taken by these fighters. The military base of the Gaza Brigade, which was supposed to prevent that from ever happening, was taken. I've heard, although there's no confirmation that the general or the commanding general was taken. And basically, this group of fighters, from once again I'll say one of the poorest and most oppressed areas in the world, was able to completely paralyze the state of Israel. Israeli military was nowhere to be found. The Israeli intelligence was nowhere to be found. Israelis were in a state of shock. This country that everybody hails as a great miracle, a great democracy, a functioning country, was completely paralyzed by this group of fighters. And it took the Israeli military, this over-glamorized terrorist organization, which is probably, like I said before, one of the best-equipped and best-financed terrorist organizations in the world. It took them weeks before they were able to take the fighting back into the Gaza Strip. And as we know, they're still fighting and suffering heavy casualties. And I think it's important to remember that Palestinians have never had an army. Palestinians have never had a military force. There's never been a Palestinian army or war plane, much less. So this was unprecedented. On top of that, I don't think it was by chance that this happened exactly 50 years and one day after the 1973 attack, which started the 1973 October War. Once again, we saw, and again, this is not the first time, once again, we saw that the Israeli military is basically a paper tiger. Whenever it's challenged, it falls apart. The Israeli intelligence apparatus, which everybody admires as a great intelligence apparatus, failed miserably. And then what happened was the state of Israel and the Israeli army, which were so severely humiliated, embarked on a massive campaign of vengeance. Like a bully or a gangster that is humiliated, they found the weakest, most defenseless people on Earth to take out their revenge. And you said it's an 18,000, but what I heard is the conservative estimate for the number of Palestinian civilians who have been brutally murdered over these last couple of months exceeds 20,000. And that's a conservative estimate. People are expecting that once all the missing will be found, and all the people who were buried under the rubble having died these horrific deaths, it'll exceed 50,000. So this is unprecedented, even for the cruelty and brutality of Israel, this is unprecedented. And what we've seen is, and a lot of unprecedented things, I'm abusing this word a lot, incredible courage by the Palestinians, incredible capabilities by the Palestinians. It's interesting because in the first few days, even Israeli generals were praising the Palestinian ability, the Palestinians' ability to do what they did. And again, we have to remember, we're not talking about soldiers. We're talking about people that, if they get one meal a day, that's good. They don't have supply lines like an army would, something not like Israel has. And so this was really quite a remarkable achievement. And then, of course, when we see Israel's response, this brutal savagery, which has been unprecedented, even for Israel. Now, like I said, this was a watershed moment, and I think it presented, and still perhaps presents, a unique opportunity, something we have never seen before. And that opportunity is for the international community to demand, in no uncertain terms, guarantees for the safety and security of Palestinian people. Palestinians, like you said correctly, have no place that they're safe. There's no place in Palestine where Palestinians are safe. This is not new. Palestinians have been living under a reign of terror for 75 years. Bombs and destruction have been raining on people who live in the Gaza Strip for decades. This is nothing new. But the level is unprecedented. So this is an opportunity for the international community to step in and say, enough, Palestinians have paid a way above what should be considered a high enough price. And it's time to demand everything that Palestinians deserve. Safety and security must be guaranteed. Money must be coming in in order to help them rebuild and rehabilitate. Massive sanctions must be imposed on the state of Israel. A no-fly zone must be imposed over Gaza. And the apartheid regime, steps must be taken to begin the dismantling of the apartheid state and replacing it with a free, democratic Palestine with equal rights. This is the time to do this. This is the time, I mean, the time to do this was a long time ago, before these 20, 30, 40,000 innocent men with their children were murdered. But now, this is not a time to negotiate. This is not a time to ask. This is a time to demand. This is a time to stand up in a way and make demands in no uncertain terms. Palestinian freedom, the dismantlement of apartheid, and rebuilding as much as possible and giving Palestinians everything they need in order to recuperate from this catastrophe. So I believe that even now, and another interesting thing is, of course, that even as the bodies are piling up by the tens of thousands, we've been used to seeing thousands murdered in Gaza in previous attacks by Israel. We're talking about tens of thousands now. And as the bodies continue to pile up, the Israeli army has still not been able to defeat the Palestinian fighters. And they're having massive losses, massive losses. Officers, all the special forces and all their glamorized blue terror squads are being killed by the Palestinians. Who, again, I would say, are not an actually regular army, do not have the supply lines, the logistics, the resources that an army has. And so this should give every single person, a moment to pause and say, we have to make sure whatever is demanded now, whatever is demanded now has to include the absolute guarantee that this will never happen again, that no Palestinian will ever be in danger like this again. And this, of course, falls on us. So that's what I believe October the 2nd is all about. Thanks for that, Miko. So yesterday, we saw the United Nations pass a motion for a ceasefire by the vast majority. Obviously, of those countries who opposed our Israel and the United States. Yet we hear from Israeli officials that they won't continue until they achieve their objectives. The objectives of this onslaught have been two folks, at least according to the ones that have been declared by Israeli officials. First one is returning on the hostages and then the second one is elimination or extermination of Hamas. I guess, what would that mean? What would that look like in terms of returning of hostages but also intimidating Hamas? And how has it been touched on it briefly that on the ground it's not really going well for the Israeli soldiers as they are faced with fierce resistance from these armed groups? But I guess what would that mean in terms of a timeline but also what is eliminated Hamas? Well, I don't believe that Israel has an objective. The only objective Israel has is vengeance. And this actually is working very well within internal Israeli politics because this is exactly what Israel has been demanding for a very long time. So the government is doing exactly what their constituents want them to do. And so there's no, and since there's, I don't believe there's any objective really not a military or political objective to Israel, it's vengeance and desire to kill as many as possible. If they want to eliminate Hamas, if they want to eliminate Palestinian resistance, I think there's a very clear pathway to doing that. That would include, like I said, dismantling the apartheid state, allowing Palestinians to return to their homes and as the beginning the transition from apartheid to a free democratic Palestine legal rights, this is how resistance stops by ending the oppression, ending the occupation and ending the killing. If anybody, I don't believe anybody thinks this seriously although they claim it, but it's ridiculous to expect that a military operation could possibly bring down the Palestinian resistance. It's not going to happen. I don't believe anybody believes it's going to happen, but again, they have to say this and because the Israeli government's constituents are demanding it, the fighting and the fighting and the fighting and the killing will continue. So I think the pathway to ending the fighting is very clear, so Israel does not want that. And the international community, for reasons that we can touch on later perhaps, the international community is completely, as we're saying in the Palestinians, they're allowing Israel to continue with this unbelievable brutality and they're saying, and you know, the U.S. is saying they're more weapons. As far as the United Nations, Israel never cared about the United Nations and there's no reason for Israel to care about the United Nations today. The United Nations has no means of enforcement. Now, if the United States and the international community wanted to stop the United States has, the United States Navy's sixth fleet isn't in the Mediterranean. They can bring these warships to force Israel to stop. They can bring these, the sixth fleet and start helping people in Gaza. They can enforce before no fly zone and severe sanctions. They can do this tomorrow if they're serious about this. But they're not serious about this and that's why they're passing, you know, they're passing a water resolution after another or they're not fed up. It makes absolutely no sense. There's no difference because they're not enforcing it and again Israel never cared about the UN did or didn't do. So this is, this is, you know, this is so far below what is required. And I'm going to talk of a cease-fire as a joke because Israel doesn't have to stop. Israel has always violated cease-fires. What is required is a much, much greater effort to end the violence against Palestinians. Thanks for that. I think, yes, obviously genocide is a strategy but it's also the goal. So there is no clear objective aside than eliminating the indigenous population of Razi, obviously, over two million Palestinian people. And that is, that obviously, that's not a, and by itself it's not a new development. It's part of an ongoing policies and strategies and that we've seen for the last, you know, at least 17 years in Gaza and Luzzi but also over 75 years in Palestine, across the historic Palestine. I guess maybe we could talk a little bit more about the United Nations, the international community and we saw what the international community can do if it's serious about accountability in the case of Ukraine. Everyone knew exactly what to do. People withdrew their officials, there were sanctions imposed, again, you mentioned no-fly zone in Gaza but how is it, how likely for that to actually occur and what kind of pressure do maybe, I guess, actors on the international side but also maybe civil society organizations like people, you know, like us, what is it that we need to do to help bring that closer to reality and, you know, to achieve that kind of... Well, I think we have to recognize that the Palestinians and the entire Palestinian issue are orphans. There's nobody to take care of the Palestinians and nobody stands for the Palestinians. There's no state, there's no group of states, there's no international organization, nobody is protecting the Palestinians, nobody speaks for the Palestinians. You know, if you compare, for example, to the anti-apartheid movement in South Africa, you had the ANC, which was a formative organization. You had the South African Communist Party, you had the Soviet block, you had Cuba sending tanks to Angola to defeat the apartheid state and so on. So I mean, the Black South Africans had allies. Palestinians had nothing. And probably one of Israel's biggest achievements is the, and biggest successes is the Oslo Accords because the Oslo Accord neutralized the countries that would support the Palestinians or the Palestinian cause. And so when people said, Oslo failed, Oslo didn't fail, Oslo was a spectacular success for Israel. And I believe that what we're seeing today is a direct result of that. But we need to recognize our weakness before we can do anything. And when we look at the other side, the Zionists have had a very well financed, strategic plan to do what they're doing. They've been doing this for over 100 years, longer before the state of Israel was established. And there's never been, there's never been a counter. There's never been anything even remotely similar to what the Zionists have been doing of course when Israel was established, Israel, the state of Israel has been doing in terms of PR, in terms of presenting their case. So if you are an American politician, an Australian politician and you wanna make an informed decision, you don't have the tools to do that because one side presents a very compelling story, a very compelling case, and they push this case forward very, very, very strongly, very aggressively. And on the other side, there are some activists doing a little bit of work here and there and nobody can compete. And so I don't think that we can make a difference until such time that something like this is created. You know, we live in democracies where we vote for elected officials. Why are we voting for elected officials who support Israel? And how do we use the power that we have in the ballot box and as consumers of the press in bringing about that change? That is the big question. And without a clear strategy, without a real playbook that helps people deal with this. And you know people always ask, how do I respond when they say this? How do I respond when they say that? Because they're very good at putting people on our side on an offensive. Do you condemn this? Do you agree with that? Do you agree with that? You know, that's not how you look at the conversation. They push bumper stickers, they push slogans, and then they expect us to somehow respond. So it takes training, it takes time, it takes somebody to do this and there's nobody doing it. There's nobody doing it because again, there's no parent for the Palestinians and there's no parent for the Palestinian cause. And that is a very, very serious problem. You know, I've been talking to some friends here about initiatives I'm involved in in Washington D.C. putting together precisely that kind of organization, that kind of Palestinian presence in Washington D.C. Which is where at the end of the day, things need to change so that things change everywhere else. But we need to recognize this weakness and we have to work within that. I don't know that we have the capability right now to actually do anything. Other than get together and speak and so on, we don't really have, there's a huge gap between public opinion and what happens in the halls of power. It's true here and it's true in Europe and it's true in the United States, it's true everywhere. And the same goes for the press. You know, there's no representation in the press for the massive support that Palestinians have you know, and on the street and in places around the world including here. And that is a serious problem. So I think once we recognize that and we start working towards that, then we will begin to see change. But it is a massive, massive, massively difficult project, a massively difficult thing that we need to do. I think you touched on a really important point. The fact that there's the lack of political or proper political representation for the Palestinians is an issue. But also on the other side, you mentioned that you know, the last couple months have presented an opportunity. And I think this is something that is quite interesting because when we talk about policy time, recently we're hearing a lot about the resurrection of the two-state solution discourse by officials. It's coming back really strongly. I mean, you know, the Australian government has always held that position that you know, it's like a talking point, right? Blah, blah, blah. And then two-state solution. No one really knows what that means. And no one knows what that would look like if that's even a viable, but that's not a concern. No one's really actually interested in implementing any two-state solution or any solution for the Palestinians. So I would say like, why would you think, why is it that it's back in this kind of intensity at this stage, specifically in the last couple months since the post-October 7th, suddenly everyone wants a two-state solution? And you also mentioned Oslo, how it's actually made a success for Israel. And obviously, two-state solution is also tied. Yeah, well, two-state solution is what people say when they don't want to know truth. And so they call back on the two-state solution knowing that it's safe because it's never going to happen. I frankly really don't know what the virtues of this two-state solution are, and I don't understand why the two-state solution is a good solution. Now, I'll tell you a little bit of a story. Some of you know and read my book, The General's Son, Journey of an Israeli Palestine. And in the book, I talk about several things that have to do with my father who was the general. And I'll tell you two episodes, two things that are in the book that have to do with my father. He was a young lieutenant colonel in the 1950s. He spoke in front of an audience of wealthy Jewish donors and important members of the Israeli cabinet. And he said, and this is mentioned in the memoirs of Israel's Prime Minister at the time, and he said that the Israeli army is prepared and ready for the order to push the eastern boundaries of the state of Israel to their natural place, which is the Jordan River. This is a made early 1950s. In other words, to take the West Bank. So, if we're ready, we're expecting this. We know that these are the natural boundaries of our states and we're just waiting for the governments to give us the order. Well, 1967, they actually did it without the order, but that's another story. The Israeli army took the West Bank and pushed these early boundaries to where they thought it should be. And they called it finishing the job because they believed that in 1948, they should have taken more, but then for whatever reasons they didn't. So then they created these two areas, one called the West Bank, one called Gaza Strip, which Israelis drew by the way, Israelis drew them. And today, they're treated like they are, like they've been there forever. On the last day of the 1967 war, and again, calling it a war I think is a bit, I don't think it's the right way to describe what happened in 1967. It was a brutal assault by Israel against its neighbors for the sake of taking land. And it wasn't a 60-day war, it was actually a five-day war. Why was it called a 60-day war, anybody wanna guess? The six days of creation was a miracle. And in the Israeli prayer book, six days, if you look at the Israeli prayer book, in terms of six days, six days, six days, it shows up a lot as the miracle of creation. They wanted to tie what happened in 1967 to the six days of creation as though it was a miracle. And even to this day, people who don't believe in God or in miracles say that that was a miracle. And why I'm really not sure, there was no miracle. There was a brutal assault by a very well-trained, well-prepared army against Israel, the neighbors of the state of Israel. And I don't know if you know this, this is kind of a side, but at the end of those five days, the Arab armies suffered 18,000 casualties, 18,000 Arab soldiers were killed. Israel suffered 700 casualties. So I think the difference shows. Now I read, everybody that dies as a mother and a father, and we hope that nobody has to go through that as a parent, but that just to show what actually took place. But anyway, on the fifth day of the last day of the war, the Israeli military high command met. And my father, of course, was still in uniform. He was in one of the generals who planned and executed that assault. But he stood up and he said something very interesting. He stood up and he said, I know some of you know this because you read the book, but he stood up and he said, we now have an opportunity to make peace with our neighbors. We can allow the Palestinians to establish a state in the West Bank and Gaza, the newly occupied territories. We can return the Sinai to the Egyptians, the Golanites to the Syrians. We can make peace with all of our neighbors and move on. Because now, the accomplishments of 1948 are secure. And we can have a Jewish state, there'll be a little Palestinian state, so Palestinians can enjoy their own right to self-determination and we can move on. And two things happened while he was saying this. The first one is Israeli bulldozers who were destroying neighborhoods in East Jerusalem that had just been taken, destroying villages and towns in the newly acquired territories in the West Bank, forcing into exile hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from those areas and building, massively building, from Jews only in those territories. This happened immediately as his words were being said, they're on the fifth, you know, so we're ended. The other thing that happened is that his comrades in arms, his Huckrabin and all these generals who were involved in that, took him aside and said, what the hell are you talking about? What the hell are you talking about? We just finished the job in 1948, now you're telling us that you want to give it back and it didn't make any sense. Now he retired from the military about a year later and the rest of his life he spent promoting this idea of the two-state solution which became less and less and less and less possible because the state of Israel wanted to make sure that that would never happen. To the point where there is no West Bank, West Bank is just, you know, still in our imagination and in some old maps, but there's no West Bank. It's completely integrated into Israel. You may have heard, they're called, that area is now called Judea and Samaria and the one distinction that exists in those areas is the way Israel describes it. There are pockets of alien population, pockets of alien population, pockets, three and a half million people living in ghettos and they are the alien population, not the settlers, not the Israeli settlers, the Palestinians are the alien population. So when people ask me today about the two-state solution I do exactly what you said, well tell me how it's gonna work. And that's when they take out the rope, they wrap it around their neck and they hang themselves because there's no way to explain it and there are no virtues to the two-state solution anyway. What are the virtues of two-state solution and why should the Palestinians accept the smaller part? Maybe Israel should be the state of it, the Jewish state should be in the West Bank and Gaza and the rest of Palestine should be for Palestinians. Who said that this should be, that this is somehow a correct division? Why should Palestinians agree to this absurd so-called solution? It's absurd. And today they say, oh, the problem with Hamas is they don't accept the two-state solution. The problem with this person he doesn't accept the two-state solution. The problem is the Palestinians don't accept it. Not that Israel made it impossible. The problem is that the Palestinians don't accept it. It's no longer there. It existed as a possibility for maybe five minutes historically. And Israel made sure now Israel established a single state from the river to the sea with privilege only for Israeli Jews who are the minority of the population Is that a lot to say from the river to the sea, by the way? Yes. Yes. So Israel established a single state, an apartheid state, a violent, brutal apartheid regime from the river to the sea for the minority Jewish population of settlers. When Palestinians called for a free democratic Palestine with equal rights from the river to the sea, that's the problem. Why does this make sense? Why people even accept this? When Palestinians say it, it's hate speech. When Israelis are calling for apartheid racism and violence by the minority, that's somehow okay. That's somehow acceptable. So again, it's one of these, but you know, I'm sure the Australian government and other Western governments and even beyond the West in the BRICS countries are not much better than that. The Africans are not much better than that. They all talk about the two-state solution because they don't want to make a choice. You have to make a choice. Apartheid or freedom and democracy. But when you make that choice, it's very clear that the state of Israel, which is the name that was given to the apartheid state that took over Palestine, must be dismantled. And that a free democratic Palestine is the only way, the only path that can lead to a peace between Israelis and Palestinians. Nobody wants to say that. But this is precisely what needs to be said. And this is precisely, I believe, the way this needs to be framed. It's not Israelis versus Palestinians because one solution will lead to peace and to the benefit of both Israelis and Palestinians. And the other solution is a racist violence solution. It's not about Israelis versus Palestinians. It's about racism and violence versus freedom and democracy. And that's how it should be framed. So why did they fall back on a two-state solution? Because it's easy. And it's the only thing they're willing to talk about. And even that is considered extreme today. It's been also very clear in a sense that it's anti-two-state solution, as well as we've continuously heard comments from Israeli politicians that, especially the ones who are currently in power, that obviously there will never be a Palestinian state alongside a Jewish state. But then recently, we also heard two days ago Benjamin Netanyahu kind of insinuating, or saying actually not insinuating, just clearly saying that Israel is ready for a war against Palestinian authority, as well. So how does that all play in, in the broader picture of what is, what is Netanyahu's strategy? And obviously Netanyahu, as you know, it's quite known for everyone, is struggling to domestic politics, but also with all the corruption allegations that could land in in prison. But how is opening another front, which I mean, it's currently ongoing as well. And that's where I guess I want to kind of also maybe direct the discussion a little bit around what's happening in the West Bank and in Geneva, and what would that look like for Netanyahu to kind of also wage war on the Palestinian authority or Palestinian forces? Benjamin Netanyahu has only one strategy. He has only one objective, and that's to keep his backside in the chair. That's it. He will do anything to keep his backside in the Prime Minister's chair. That's the only strategy, that's the only objective he has, and he will do anything he needs to do to do that. And to be quite honest, he's done a very good job. I think his backside is perfectly safe. Israeli public opinion is very easy to, I mean, if people want to know what is really stinking, just look at the makeup of the Israeli Knesset and the Israeli parliament. That's what Israeli think. Look at the makeup of the Israeli cabinet, the Israeli government. That's what is really stinking. It's really important for them over and over and over again many, many times. So it's very obvious what Israelis want. And whenever there is Palestinian bloodshed, Israelis seem to be perfectly happy. And they have full support, and they give their full, full out of support to the government. You know, you remember, I'm sure, that a few months ago, or until a few months ago, hundreds of thousands of Israelis were in the streets protesting against this, you know. They didn't go anywhere because they were all the people that didn't vote for him. He has a secure majority in the Knesset, so it didn't matter. There was something very interesting that happened at one point, and it had to do with the Israeli Air Force pilots. So Israeli Air Force pilots have to maintain, the reservists have to maintain a training, weekly training. It's a very rigorous regimen. They have to be very well trained because they might be called on very quickly to drop millions of tons of bombs on a defenseless population in Gaza or to bomb targets in Syria and so on. So they have to prepare, and they're happy and willing to do that. When the protests against it's an hour taking place, several Air Force pilots said they will not go for the training because they are going to the protests. And democracy is more important than even the training. Where are they now? Israeli Air Force pilots are considered in Israeli society to be the gods, the cream of the crop. Everybody adores them, and they adore themselves. Where are they now? They have no problem whatsoever. They have no problem whatsoever. You haven't seen, I haven't heard any of them say now that we're not going to do this. They're lining up. So there is no clear objective other than maintaining the violence. And Israel made it very clear very early on, and they're in 1950s that peace is not an objective. It's never been an objective. The only objective is always making sure that they are the best armed bully in the neighborhood. That's it. And that they kill more Arabs than Arabs can kill one of them. That's it. And to that end, Dave, you have to say, they've done a very good job. But this continues to be the case. This continues to be the case that has never changed. I don't think this particular government is any more extreme than any other government that Israel has had. I mean, Israel's first government conducted the ethnic cleansing of 1948. How much more extreme could these people be? So I don't believe that there's been any shift whatsoever. It's been a continuous, persistent, moving forward with the same objective. So killing Palestinians, terrorizing countries around Palestine is what Israel does. And they do it all the time. And of course, that's why I said earlier, the most important thing to do now, and again, relate, we're about 20,000 innocent civilians late, is to make sure that there's pressure to guarantee the safety and the lives of Palestinians. The security and the safety and the lives of Palestinians must be the absolute first objective. And a ceasefire is not gonna do it. I demand for a ceasefire is not going to guarantee anything. Not even a, what do they say, a long-standing ceasefire, or a permanent, there's no such thing as a permanent ceasefire. We're dealing with Israel. There's no such thing as a permanent ceasefire. The only permanent ceasefire will be when Israel is dismantled and replaced with a real democracy with equal rights. That has to be the case. So it's really important not to be kind of pulled into this confusion of Israeli politics, the confusion of the rhetoric and about what is happening right now. Are they going to bring somebody else to take care of Gaza? Will Hamas be destroyed? Will the PA be lived? That's not what's important right now. It's important not to be pulled into that conversation, but be absolutely clear that the one demand that has to be consistent is the safety and security of Palestinians. Period, long term and forever. This was never to be allowed to happen again, ever. And the only way to do that is, like I said, every sanctions and so on to dismantle the apartheid state. That's it. Don't talk about anything, any of the ceasefire, two state solution, peace with Israel. There's no such thing. There is no such thing. The welfare of Palestinian children from the river to the sea and beyond and the refugees and camps outside of Palestine must be our first objective, their safety. Nothing is more important than that. Nothing should get in the way of that conversation. Nothing should distract us from that. There should be no distractions allowed. The safety of Palestinian children, of Palestinian men and women and the elderly and so on must be the only objective. And to that end, you have to make the toughest demands possible, the biggest demands possible. And then we can see a movement forward. What happens is really politics isn't about not taking out who cares. Thank you for that. I've experienced Israel as an expansionist and an exclusivist project, in the sense that it cannot live with others who are non-Zionists, but specifically clearly we're talking about Palestinians. So it has been consistent in that sense with all of its policies and practices and all of its operations to kind of achieve that goal. But also at the same time, we've also seen consistency from the Palestinians in the sense that relentless, smooth, and the way that the Palestinians have been able to kind of continuously evolve and reshape the struggle, but also the resistance has always, has also been something that Israel clearly, 75 years later, has, it's unable to complete its project. So we know that the Zionist project is not complete and that is because of the sumo of the Palestinian people. So I think I just wanted to make that point that yes, we know what we're up against and we know that it's not just Israel, and we know it's the US and the UK and all of the, you know, to the political level globally. We know the enormity of the quote unquote, the enemy in this instance, but we also know that we have been the main block on the ground in terms of allowing Israel to achieve its full objective when it comes to the Zionism. So what were your thoughts on that? I guess I'm not sure. How cool are we, huh? What we're going to do is that out of 12-minute people who live between the river and the sea, probably about seven million are Palestinians. So the Palestinians are the majority of the population and the Palestinians have been resisting in a variety and very creative ways, mostly unarmed by the way. And so I think that's, I mean, there's no way, certainly the Palestinians deserve to be commended for this and they've shown an incredible ability to sacrifice and incredible creativity in the ways in which they resist. But I think they've paid enough. I think Palestinians have paid a heavy price that is far beyond what any nation should have to pay. And so I think, again, it's up to us to stand up and make sure that they don't have to pay anymore. You know, and we're not just talking about Gaza. Palestinians have been living a life of terror for 75 years. There's a suppression that somehow the Palestinians in 1948 who have this dubious distinction of having Israeli citizenship are somehow exempt from this. And you know, if I may, I'll say a word or two about that. People don't realize that citizenship that Palestinians have, those that have citizenship is nothing like the citizenship that Israelis have, Israeli Jews have, nothing like it whatsoever. And I'll give you just a couple of examples, if I may. So for example, the Palestinians in 1948 are governed by different agencies. The entire southern part of the country is called Nakhob. It's 50%, it's the southern half of Palestine. It is governed by an agency called the Agency for the Development of the Negative. They call it the negative, the Nakhob is negative in Hebrew. When Israel has an agency that says the development, that means getting rid of Palestinians. That means destroying Palestinian homes, destroying Palestinian lives and stealing Palestinian land. That's what the word development means. They have the development of the Galilee, the development of Jerusalem, of course they've developed. So the Palestinians are Nakhob, some 300,000 Palestinian Bedouins. It's not a small number. Who mostly live without access to water or electricity or roads or medical care or jobs or education. Although some miraculously with all of these obstacles managed to make it to university, managed to achieve incredible, incredible accomplishments. But by and large, this is where they live. And again, that agency has its own law enforcement, which is not, again, it's not law enforcement, it's destruction of homes and stealing of Palestinian land. Now the Nakhob, even though it's a desert, it's a very fertile desert, which is why the Israeli settlements there enjoy some of the highest standard of living among Israelis. And agriculture is very successful there. Now the Palestinians are better than Nakhob or traditionally farmers, but they're not allowed to engage in farming. Only Israelis are allowed, Israeli Jews are allowed to engage in cultivating the land in Nakhob. If I went back tomorrow, I could have a ranch subsidized, all the land I want, access to water, I could grow anything I want. Palestinian veterans whose land this is are not allowed to engage in agriculture. And this is what, this was their tradition. And you know, they talk about Israel having made the desert bloom, particularly when they talk about the Nakhob. If you look at aerial photos taken by the British when they occupied Palestine, you will see tracks of cultivated land in the Nakhob, cultivated by the Palestinian veteran. So it's nonsense, they didn't make anything bloom, they stole a country that wasn't full bloom, just to make that clear. And I'll just say this, I know that Francesca Alvarez was here recently, she's a good French, wonderful person of course, and she wrote and co-authored an incredibly important document a few years ago, and it's titled Palestinian refugees in international law. It's a very academic book, but it's really very, very important to read. I wrote a review, a pretty long review a few years ago when it came out. And one of the things she details in that book is what was stolen from Palestinians. And I'm just gonna say this, I know it's not exactly answering questions, but I think it's important. So we know the Palestinians homes were stolen, land was stolen, but what she, what this book also mentions is things that people don't think about. Entire cities were stolen. Entire cities were already there that is your stole. Yaffa, Haifa, and Hakka, and Tabariah, and on and on and on and on and on, Jerusalem of course, and on and on and on. Cities, entire cities. So public spaces were taken. People had money in the bank that was taken. Whatever, you know, vehicles, agricultural equipment. The produce, Palestine was exporting citrus, jaffa oranges, barley from the Nakhah, cotton, olive oil, soap, and on and on and on. It was a thriving economy, a thriving culture, a thriving country. It was all stolen, which is one of the reasons Israel was able to function as a snake very quickly after it was established. All of this was stolen. They didn't make anything bloom. They stole a country full bloom. And then they said that they made it bloom. So I think it's important to put that in context. So again, going back to the Palestinians, the citizens of Israel, they're the ones who ended up remaining in that part of the country. We're just known today as Palestine in 1948. So it's Palestine without the West Bank and Gaza. And so again, half the country is governed by this other agency, and I'll let me give you some numbers which are home demolition, for example. Over the last five years, there have been between 10 and 12,000 homes in the Nakhah alone demolished. Now, the many Israeli communities in Nakhah, like I said, they enjoy some of the highest standard of living. How many of those homes, how many of those homes would you imagine were the homes of Israeli Jews that built illegally, or without a permit? Anybody want to guess? Now, does that mean Israelis that have built a lot of permits? No. I know Israelis that built a lot of permits. They had a balcony and they made it into a room. If, if an inspector finds out that this happens, the authorities find out it's an inspector, he writes a report, maybe there's a fine so that they go to court. The court takes years and years and years. Maybe they have to, you know, pay a larger fine, whatever. You never, ever, ever see the Israeli military, the Israeli police close down the street and demolish the home of Israeli Jews, ever. Between 2,500 homes demolished in the Nakhah alone, 40,000, 40,000 home demolition orders in the rest of the country, not including Jerusalem or the West Bank. And many Palestinian friends of mine who have home demolition orders will say, tell me, it's almost worse to have the demolition order than having your home demolished so you don't know when they're gonna come and do it. They might come tonight at two o'clock in the morning and destroy your home. You never know. I could be a very good friend of mine, a wonderful activist in the city of Lid. Maybe you know her, Fidesh Hadi. She's a member of the Lid City Council. She grew up in this environment and decided to study city planning because she realized there is no planning for the Palestinian cities inside 1948 and what's known as the mixed cities, like Arkad, like Lid and the others, where you have Jewish Israelis and Palestinians. The only planning is for the Israeli neighborhoods, nothing for the Palestinians, nothing. So she went to, God bless her. She's a wonderful brave woman. So she went and studied it and she's trying to bring about change and she's a foreigner on their side but you know, this is the lot and the lives of Palestinians in 1948 and we're happy if I'm wrong, it's governed by the Israeli intelligence services, by the Shabbat. They can't take a step, they can't get a job. No one can become a teacher or a principal of a school without an okay from the Shabbat. You know, the Israeli Ministry of Education has a security department. Israeli teachers don't have to go to the security department. Do you know what the security department is for? For the Palestinian citizens of Israel who want to become a teacher. And I'll say one more thing about this, I can talk about it all day, but I'll say one more thing. You know, there is your past a law where public institutions are not allowed to recognize the neqba. And in one particular school, and I heard this from a principal in Jerusalem, a teacher wore a kviyah on May 15th, which is not today, wore a kviyah to school. The next day, the principal received a call from the security department inside the Ministry of Education, telling him that that teacher needs to be recommended. The next day, so of course, he had to call all the teachers and recommend all the teachers and so on and so forth. This is the citizens of Israel, the Palestinians who have the citizenship of Israel. This will never happen to Israeli, Israeli Jew. So this is the reality. You know, why is it apartheid? This is apartheid. You know, people ask, those of us who have a part that's a democracy, the stories can go on and on and on how it's gone. Thanks. Yeah. Thank you. I mean, I love talking about 1948, obviously as a 1948er, but just to that point, in the Chow, you know, and the state international put together a brilliant report that details all the ways in which Israel practices the crime of apartheid against all Palestinians, not only the ones in Gaza and Luzzi and the West Bank, but also 1948 as well as the ones in the diaspora. But I think we come out to the, you know, the question of, it's- Is it about the rest of those big questions? No, these are not the questions. But so, you know, but when people found out that you're coming, I've had many friends ascending the text and reaching out like, no, you have to ask him this question, including like my cousins in Germany and then Mark, please ask him this question. So people want to know, Miko, so you were born in Jerusalem, you grew up in Mutsahit, that's my research. Your grandfather signed the Israeli Declaration of Independence, and your father was a general in the Six-Day War in 1967. And here you are. What happened? And how? Because my other part of the question is, how can we, or do you think it's possible to extend that kind of journey that you went through onto others in a show? It's called the sins of our fathers, right? It is possible. There's no question it's possible. I don't think I did anything that's impossible, I didn't remote it, it's absolutely possible. I would say it's not that easy, I grew up in Mutsahit. I know it's not that easy. And there are other examples here of people from that who say that journey. But the short answer to that is, well that's why there's a book called The General Son. But I'll give you an answer anyway. So yes, I was born in this very privileged, very Zionist, patriotic family, as many Israelis are. But in my case, there were so many members of my family that were part of this generation that established the State of Israel. And then were part of the actual governing of the State of Israel in those few decades. And of course, my father the general. And so I grew up in this atmosphere where Zionism was like God and the state was everything. I had a great uncle who was a president and we were all gathered at the president's residence every year and the whole family came and all these important people were part. There's nothing beat the general because he comes with his uniform and it's the coolest. But nothing beats that. But I mean, everybody around and the state was like this thing that you sacrifice for and you work for and it was just a big deal. It kind of set me fascist really. But as a boy, you grow up and you think, wow. And there's a break. And the break doesn't come all at once. It's gradual. And that's why again I said there's a book. The journey of an Israeli in Palestine is the long one. Even though geographically it's a very short one. And the break in something that is so fundamental, I think sadly, only happens as a result of something terrible. You need to be shaken up, you need to be shaken up so severely that it forces you to look at the very fundamentals of who you are and what you believe. And then question them. Which again, it's never easy but in my case it's the foundation of Israel is so part of who I was and what my family was about. It was very, very difficult. In my case, this terrible tragedy was my 13 year old niece was killed in a suicide attack in 1997, it was a very long time ago. And that's exactly the kind of horror that forces you to re-examine the foundations on which you stand and which make up who you are. This is exactly the kind of thing. And I'll say two things about it. Number one, when you carry a small comfort of a child to its final resting place, it's an experience you know you should dedicate your life to make sure this never happens to anyone ever again. That's the kind of experience that is. You can't imagine the horror. And the other thing is, you know, we become so accustomed to talk about violence when we talk about it in Palestine, that we say, oh yeah, there was suicide bombing, 10 people were killed and then we move on to something else. What I like to say is let's pause for a minute, okay? This was a long time ago and many, many, many thousands of Palestinian deaths ago and many deaths, really deaths as well. But let's pause for a minute. What actually happened? Three young men took their lives. Three young men decided to take their lives and take the lives of others in the process. Are we talking about what kind of reality that Israel creates that brought about this horror, something so terrible? This is horrifying, this is horrifying. And again, I think part of the problem is that we talk about it when we move on. I'm saying, no, no, no, we're not gonna move on. Let's talk about this. And the only way to talk about this is to be engaged. So my response and my reaction was to find a way to be engaged. So I was living in the US at the time. I was back home from the funeral and the whole thing and then I went back and what do you do? Everything's changed. You can't just go back to work like nothing happened. What do you do? I lived in San Diego in Southern California. Nobody wants to talk about constant. And much less talk about something like this because people don't know how to respond and they don't know how to react. I was extremely, extremely fortunate that eventually into a couple of years I was able to connect with the Palestinian community in Southern California, particularly in San Diego. And at that time there were these, it was very popular for dialogue groups. They were called living room dialogue groups. Jewish Palestinian. And people would meet in each other's homes once a month and discuss, not discuss the politics, not argue and so on. But everybody just tells their story. And that was the first time I met Palestinians. I was born and raised in Jerusalem. A lot of Palestinians in Jerusalem, I never met them, any of them. I was in the United States, first time I met Palestinians. And then you sit there and you hear these very fine people and talk and they're telling you that night is day and day is night and that the world is flat. I mean, that's the extent of what they're telling me when I compared it to what I knew to be true. And I had to know what was true because my family was involved. So obviously what I knew was true. And they're telling me that they had night is day and day is night. So it's a process and you have to insert a lot of trust. And the reason I was so poor, I said I was so fortunate is because that community was generous and kind enough to allow me to make that very painful journey from where I was to where I am today. And I was compared to a child learning to walk when they hold onto something and then they have to let go and walk to the next thing that they can hold onto. And for me, that was exactly it. I had to let go of what I absolutely knew to be true and it was a big part of my identity. It was actually the biggest part of my identity. And then walk somewhere and find my identity somewhere else. And understanding who I was and how could everything I know to be true turn out to be not true and so on. And that was the process. And then, you know, the anti-engaging post-pand itself and I would go to the post-pand cities first inside 1948 and the Lewis Bank and engaging Palestinians more and more. And the journey is, you know, once you go beyond a certain point, it's a point of no return. So then I had to make a choice. Do I remain, I suppose, loyal to this background that I have or do I follow my values? Because if I follow my values, I have to reject Zionism because Zionism is a racist ideology that brought about a great deal of violence and suffering to other people. So eventually that was the route that I chose. I couldn't but reject Zionism. I couldn't but reject that entire history because it's, you know, the injustice and so on. So that was the journey and that's how it ended up. You know what I mean? The floor, you know, I have to take questions from the audience is, you know, you lived obviously in Israel and Palestine in 1948 and you lived in Japan for a while and then you were based in the U.S. So my question is, what would be lessons learned for global movement for justice or palace time that you would kind of say that the Australian movement can learn from? Maybe are there any lessons that we can take from, say, knowing that the conference is different to the U.S., obviously, different history but also both movements are on different stages. But what would be a helpful lesson that we could potentially apply here in Australia? Well, I don't know that I know more about that than people sitting in this room. And I don't think that the differences are that great between Europe and here in the United States. I don't think the differences are great. I think we're all facing the exact same challenges and that is, like I said before, the people in the halls of power are not listening to us and even though we consume the press, the press is not representing us at all. And that is our challenge. We need to close that gap between what we believe and what they do, between what we do and what they report. It's like we don't exist. And so that is a challenge that I see in every place I've ever been to. All over Europe, all over the United States, here, the second time, in New Zealand, anywhere I've been, this is the exact same challenge. And people always, every country I go to, every city I go to, people say, this is the worst. The press here is absolutely the worst. The government here is absolutely Zionist. Well, it's everywhere. And we're all facing the exact same challenge. I think that there's a lesson here and I don't think I'm saying here anything that everybody else hasn't figured out already. And that is, we have to work together and we have to create a strategy and then we have to fight for an absolute free Palestine. No compromises, 100% from the river to the sea, a free democratic Palestine with equal rights and we have to be very, very, very disciplined. That is the message. Don't talk to me about two-state solution. Don't mention Israel, Palestine, Palestine, Israel. It's Palestine and it has to be free and democratic. Or for questions, Niko takes three questions at a time. Can I just remind everyone to be concise and short with the questions, but also make sure you're asking a question, not just a statement. Please raise your hand and obviously, maybe say your name, just let us know your name before you leave. And apologies that I will need to intervene if I think that the question is taking a little longer. So apologies in advance that I will interject. We're working out of Washington as well to set up voices and to bring about change. So do you think, we've recently heard that Joe Biden say, if there was no Israel to protect US interests, you would have to create Israel and that was why he circulated. He's held his position for a long time. Given that the Middle Eastern states of today are more modern and open and willing to cooperate with the US and UK, do you think in the future US would still need Israel to protect its interests in the Middle East? Just a point, it's not an appointment, it's just a brief announcement. I want to do it. The way I provide Palestine is I predict leaflets and I think we'll leave this leaf that we'll be able to deal with here. We need questions, any announcements? But basically what I'm just saying is this is how I get the word out. Thank you very much for that. Please come and see me if you think this will be useful. Sure, sure. I'm sorry about that. Just stop this or I'll stand in front of the guards and tell the students. I look here, you say we have to make demands and not negotiate. What would be the kinds of direct action that would make refusing to act? We ask for the demands too expensive. Hello, my name is Kisham. I have a question about what your thoughts would be for very young anti-Zionist movements that we are seeing in the US right now with Jewish people for peace. I think why is it easier for younger Jewish people in the US right now to identify the policies of the Zionist ideologies compared to their parents? Sorry, I'm just nervous. Come into play between the different generations in terms of their loyalty to the Zionist ideology. OK, that's great. Three questions. So we'll let Miko answer and then move to the first question. OK, the first question is great. I know all the questions, so thank you. But this first question is really important. This whole idea that somehow Israel is needed for US interests or Western interests and at least that sort of thing, I don't think it's true. I mean, let's say tomorrow, Palestine was pretty democratic. Why would they not be working with the US? Or US has great allies, great allies in Egypt, in Jordan, in Saudi Arabia, and in Gulf, in most of North Africa? Why does it need Israel in particular? If Palestine was great and democratic, I'm sure they'd still be happy to receive $1 billion a year. Hopefully they won't use it to buy arms. They'd use it to do something productive. But I mean, I think it's nonsense. I think it's absolutely nonsense. And I'm glad you asked the question, because I think you see that too. But that's a ridiculous claim. It's part of this Zionist propaganda, and somehow the world needs Israel, because Israel is this wonderful, miraculous thing. But it's absolutely nonsense. I agree with you. I don't think it's needed at all. But to talk about how to make, basically, the occupational cost and cost is, I think, what you're asking. And I have a great friend who's a remarkable hero. His name is Issamro. And he operates in Al-Qaeda in the city of Tebron. He runs what is probably the most important and most affected grassroots resistance organization in Palestine. And he himself is an icon. I respect him greatly. I follow him into fire. And he always says, we have to make it costly. We have to make it costly. Well, how do you make it costly? Sanctions. Boycott. Divestment. You may have heard the acronym before, BDS. That is how you make it costly. Now, the thing is, I think sanctions are clear. We know what sanctions are. We've seen the West led by America impose sanctions on every country they don't like. So we know what sanctions are like. It actually strangles the country economically and diplomatically. Divestment, again, is quite clear. I think there's a misunderstanding about the boycotts. I think that people think, and it's not wrong, but they think that the boycott means don't buy Israeli avocados or oranges or something. And if you shouldn't, but boycott means that Israeli teams are prohibited from participating in the Olympics, which means there should be no presents for Israelis in any arena. If you held an event, and you invited a South African team during a part-time, you would be penalized as an organization, whether it's a sporting event, an academic event, a cultural event, on and on and on, certainly diplomatic arenas. There should be no representation. It should be absolutely no tolerance for that. Some of you may remember, I always mention this, because I think it's important. In the 2021 Olympics in Japan, there was an Algerian athlete by the name of F. Henry. And he was a competitor in Judo. He was a young man in 2022. And you know, you know how hard somebody has to work before they get into the Olympics. You have to be incredibly disciplined and work very hard for many years. And during the Olympics, he was called on to compete against a member of the Israeli team. And he said, no, he wouldn't do it. He was thrown out of the Olympics. He was thrown out of the International Judo Federation, which means he cannot participate in Judo competition anywhere, anywhere. He ended his career. He sacrificed his career to do the right thing. And personally, as somebody else experienced in martial arts, he won the match without even stepping on the match. There's no question that he won that match. But he should not have to make that sacrifice. The International Olympic Committee should not allow an Israeli team into the Olympics to begin with. It shouldn't be up to a young person, a young athlete, to sacrifice a career. And this is true on every arena. We hear stories like this, you know, or refusal to engage with an Israeli delegation, with an Israeli team, which is wonderful, it's heroic, it's the way it should be. But it's not up to individuals to make a sacrifice. Institutions need to make a sacrifice. That's where the boycott is important. That's what we must demand. And again, I'll say, sporting events, cultural events, diplomatic events, academic arenas for sure, they should not be allowed to enter. You know, in the US, and I'm sure it's the same here on campuses, you've got the, whatever the mascot is, blah, blah, blah, for Israel. And I'm thinking, are you not your minds, you're allowing a group that promotes racism and violence to have representation on campus? And then the administration's always given a hard time to the pro-Cal City groups. We'll call for justice and freedom. You know what I mean? That's what boycott is. And when we get serious about Israel Bank, that's how you make them cost you. That's how you make them pay a price. That's the price they need to pay. And when you do that, that's what brings them to their knees. And then we can make about change. That's what needs to happen. You know, I think that one of the stories was the famous story that the, I think it was in New Zealand, they had to, they were not allowed to participate in rugby or something with the South Africans. And that tore us in New Zealand apart politically. But that was the decision that had to be made. You cannot make any compromise on this because they have to be a price. And in the end, like I said before, this is what's going to be beneficial for Palestinians and for Israelis because that's the way to peace. That's the only way to peace. So that's how you make it costly. You know, I don't know the question about the young Antizanist Jews. Antizanist Jews have been around for a very long time. And they've been speaking out for a very long time. Nobody's been listening. Now with these very active young Jewish organizations that have been around and been protesting, people are paying attention. But it's not really new and I don't think it's generation. There are many older Antizanist Jews around in the US and everywhere else. But I don't think they've been given the platform and I don't think they know how to use the platform as well as these young people. So that's what we're seeing. I'm not sure that this is somehow a departure from a generational thing because I know many, many older Antizanist Jews that have been active for a very long time. Many of them are the most observant Orthodox Jews in the world, including the United States. They are the most consistent Antizanist in the world actually. They've been Antizanist for a very, very beginning. And so it's great that people are paying attention but I don't think it's easier for them or anything like that. I just think that they know how to use the platforms that are available to make their voices heard. Antizanist Jews who've been involved since the early 70s. I've also heard comments about the whole racist nature of the Israeli education system, which basically objectifies and puts Palestinians as the enemy other and we can see this what is happening in Gaza right now. And which is a genocide or war, clearly. Now, I think what we've got to do now is to build up a really critical mess and I was involved in the Antivieta movement and I'm feeling right now that this is what is happening throughout the world, that the critical mess is building up where the Israeli regime is going to be non-acceptable amongst other nations. Hi, my name's Asha. Have you mentioned around the work you're doing in Washington and I guess that's around building political capacity of people during the end to stand up and to advocate for Palestine on the political scene. My question is how do we keep Palestine in the forefront if we're thinking, we're talking about politicians and that it isn't lost in, you know, in our cost of living. So I think about the Australian, you know, the Australian political scene. People are passionate but when it comes to getting ready to vote, whether on that stage or federal, it's around, you know, cost of living, it's around your own men, the meat, what's impact, what's the government going to give me when we're thinking about tax breaks and all of that sort of stuff. Absolutely, I haven't seen you in person so I'm welcome to Australia. I've been hearing the questions quite long but there's been talks, so it's into the details of what you've discussed today. There's been talks on the media around a second ethnic cleansing plan for the Gazans into neighboring countries. What are your thoughts on that and if it's true, to what extent do you think the Palestinian resistance in Gaza played a role in thwarting these plans? On top of that, I just want to add another question who I may, why do you think it is a taboo in the West to objectively and analytically discuss the legitimacy of the Palestinian resistance, including the armed struggle against apartheid and how do you think we can break that taboo? One more question. One more question. Ah. My name is Mehid and thank you for sharing your thoughts with us as well. We'd love to know from your experience watching the global movement how we activate diaspora communities to understand the policies of Israel or a move from the issue. Sorry, I'm a little bit nervous as well. For instance, Australia has a lot of new migration waves in the last few years. I am one of those as well. And I can speak for instance with the South Asian diaspora who come to mind, we have large migration waves but the narrative is almost completely absent from those community spaces. So I'm curious to understand how it is that we start to activate diaspora outside of maybe even faith spaces because I know that faith is often used as a rhetoric so how do we make it more secular as a dialogue so that other communities can be involved? Okay, well you don't put any bunches of different questions on the easy questions today. How do we keep Palestine the forefront is probably the biggest, one of the biggest challenges that the question is. Everybody wakes up when there's but Palestinians are being killed then or after the Palestinians are being killed or who live and then everybody goes back home and that's exactly the problem I was discussing earlier that the void of an actual Palestinian presence that continues this conversation all is high. So I was talking to a young Palestinian who was an intern in the office of one of the senators in Washington DC. And he was telling me that they received 300 emails a day from a single Zionist organization called Stand With Us. 300 emails a day, every senator, every member of Congress, probably the press as well. I would be surprised if they sent it to the diplomatic corps. Every single day, that's just one of many, many, many, many Zionist organizations that operate in the United States. That's how you keep it in the forefront. That's how you do it. Now the problem is we're not there. We're 100 years ahead of us. We're not there. We don't have the presence to do that. It requires presence. It requires training. It requires strategy. It requires money. You know, I mean, there's no shortage of money out there that could be dedicated to this, but it's just not happened yet. That's what it takes. That's precisely why their story is always, always on the forefront. It doesn't matter what Israel does, what Israel doesn't do, you know, it's always on the forefront. The new definition of anti-Semitism is swept like a wildfire. It's the craziest thing I've ever heard in my life. Redefining anti-Semitism. What will they think of next? But it will be brilliant. There's not a single non-governmental organization, not a single university church. I don't know what, but it didn't pass it. Cities and city councils and regional councils. I mean, everybody's passing is nonsense. Because nobody's really sure what the hell's going on. So they say, well, let's pass it because it's safe. There was a case near Washington DC in Maryland, a county called Montgomery County. The county passed the resolution, so the new, and they do it in secret. They do it in the middle of the night so it won't be in the opposition. So the word got out and so it was blocked. A few weeks later, we woke up one morning and we learned that it passed. They met, I don't know, the middle of the night and it didn't pass it or something and they passed it. You know, that's how they do it. You know, but they are constantly present and they're constantly pushing their agenda. And they're constantly thinking of new ways to keep it up on the forefront. That's how you do it. That's how you do it. There's no other way to do it. So I hope we can, you know, like I said, this initiative that I'm working on in Washington is to do exactly that. I know there's people working here in Australia to do that sort of thing. That's how you do it. We're never gonna get beyond where we are unless we can do that. Um, the ethnic cleansing of Gaza and I think what the, I think what the Palestinian resistance did, I'll start with the end of the question. You know, how do you start legitimizing the Palestinian resistance and discussion about it? Well, we legitimize it by saying it. You know, every interview I've given and I've given, I don't know how many since October 7th and every lecture I've given somewhere in the mix, there's always a question about, I'm sorry? I never mentioned Hamas. I never mentioned Hamas. Why do I care if these fighters are a member of this party or that party or this group? They're Palestinian fighters. You think that they belong to something like this? These are Palestinian fighters. That's it. I'm not gonna get into that conversation. But you can never, holy, you're gonna condemn somebody? I condemn the brutal violence by Israel for 75 years, absolutely. You know, you can condemn people for resistance. Are you out of your mind? Who condemns or oppressed people for resistance? What is this nonsense? But we have to, you know, we have to take control of the conversation and not let them dictate what we say or don't say. So I think the part of the problem is that people are ill-equipped and it's not to them. It's because of anybody's fault. You know, I do this every day all day. Not everybody, you know, does that. And so we're not everybody's equipped for this. And they have a playbook. So like I said, a few days ago I was at a campus in the US and I heard this, you know, River to the Sea thing. Yesterday I was in Adelaide, I heard the same thing. Boom, like that, five minutes. It's done. The playbook is everywhere. Everybody knows what to ask, what to say, what to condemn, what to not condemn, and on, on, on. And we're like, okay, well how do we say this and how do we deal with that? And it's legitimate, but we need the guidance and we need an organization and we need a platform that will help us do that. So the way we legitimize talking about it is by talking about it. It's by saying, just the way, you know, just the way it is. And it's not easy and it's uncomfortable. And if you're working in a workplace, it's dangerous. If you're a teacher, you're gonna get threatened. And if you're this and that and the other, there are a lot of risks and you pay a price. But silence is also a price. Silence is more to talk about in a way that, you know, shocks the other side. And when I say these things, by the way, about the Palestinian fighters, the other side is like, in shock, they're in shock. There's like the silence and confusion and that's precisely what they need to be. And by the way, if they're also offended by this, then that's extra credit. That's what I'm saying. Conversation into communities that are already weak. And I think that's what you're talking about in great many communities of immigrants when I'm a state man. That's a really difficult one because they're already vulnerable. And for vulnerable communities to get involved in something that is this difficult and complicated is a tough call. Now, having said that, I know in the United States that it is happening and people are getting involved and people are speaking and young people are doing it and other parents don't want them to and so on. And you're also right that in many communities, especially if they're South Asian or Arab, then in many cases it's an oxen. It's the religious thing that draws them in. I mean, I think it's a fair concern. In terms of access to the religious sites and the existence of the religious Muslim sites and Christian for no matter, in the Holy Land, in Palestine, they are under threat. There's no question. The Rahimi mosque in Hebron has already happened and it's been taken. And some of their soldiers come and go into the Muslim part of it freely whenever they want. Palestinians sometimes don't even have time to roll up the rugs before they walk in with their boots with their dirty boots into the mosque. Al-Aqsa, there's what's called the Hebronization of Al-Aqsa. In other words, the same process where they allow their settlers more and more into the Holy Space is exactly happening now, not to mention other places in Palestine. So I mean, this is a serious concern and I think it's a good thing that people get involved on that issue too. The problem with that is that it's, I don't know how to say this properly, you need to have a political element in that as well. You can't just be the religion because the problem is the politics. The problem is that Israel allows itself to do this and this is the political issue. So, but again, having vulnerable communities to delve into this, I think they're courageous when they do, but I can't blame them when they don't. And again, I've never been in that position of vulnerability so I can't really tell people what to do or not to do when they're in that position. Thank you. There's something that I would like to address. I think a few questions were raised in terms of what is it that we can do and how can we basically get Palestine to burst out of the Palestine bubble. And I think these are questions that are really important to tackle. But in terms of what actually can do, how can we keep Palestine? And that's something that you mentioned as well, even in your answer, Miko, how can we keep it up front and center? But just to give kind of practical steps that you can do. So the Australian Palestine Advocacy Network, APAN, has set up campaigns for people to actually send letters to their political leaders and MPs. So that's one tangible thing that you could actually do is that you could send those letters to your politicians and keep sending those letters, keep calling them, keep trying to kind of, you know, request that you meet and keep up the pressure. So there are actually actions that you could do, something that has been set up by, you know, organizations, advocacy organizations. So check out APAN's website. The other thing that I want to address, and that's the question I think that was raised over there in terms of how can we, but also building on Miko's answer, how can we get Palestine to get out of the bubble that is limited to Palestine and get as many other groups as possible involved? And I think intersectionality is a key. We know that, you know, most of the colonial projects and oppressive regimes support each other. We know that, for a fact. But we also know that the answer to counter that, and that's something that we've been doing successfully to a certain extent, but also obviously this continuous work that needs to be done in that space. And the answer to counter that is to build across national or international solidarity movements, such as, you know, the global movement for justice for Palestine, that we're seeing and that, you know, in the last couple of months, we've seen the enormous numbers, you know, millions and millions around the world coming out. And every weekend in our rallies, we have such a diverse crowd, right? We're having, looking at the crowd, like it's people from different backgrounds. We have different flags as well raised to kind of highlight the diversity of the supporters. So I think it's happening. We just need to kind of keep pushing in that direction in order to keep finding those links. And Nico mentioned one of them is, you know, the Islamic kind of link to the cause. And clearly that's one important link or intersection, but there's also heaps of other intersections that we can build on and we should continue to build on and extend those networks. So I hope that's helpful. Last three questions, and then that's it. Just realizing that we're quite grossly over time. Thank you, Nico. My name is Rami. I'm from Palestine, from Geneva, Canada. Actually, I have two quick questions. The first one is that you have to talk about the dismantling of the apartheid regime system, the Israeli apartheid regime system. To what extent do you agree that the Palestinians in Israel should stop participating in the Knesset election? That's my first question. My second is, you may hear about the apartheid attack on Geneva camera right now. About 11 people have been killed after this afternoon. So do you think that Benjamin Netanyahu are trying to turn his focus to his bank as he's stuck in Gaza? That's one of those issues. I have a number of questions, but I'll just ask the main one that applies to us here. You, as an anti-Zionist Jew, you can say these things without being accused of being anti-Semitic. But as an Arab, it's not as easy, and I have come across a lot of what you've discussed, where I felt like this is really frustrating. Even the language, even describing the situation, I have to fight the monopoly over language. I cannot say genocide without, oh, you can't use this word. I can't say, you know, like anything that remotely expresses what's actually happening, we can't use because we might alienate the community and we're trying to build support from the Jewish community. And as I've recently had to deal with, you can't say that. Let's not use that term. So what would you suggest? Do we confront or do we water it down to gain support? I don't know. I feel like it's much better. And just one last thing, short of having 12 million home visits, how do we actually impact the Jewish community in Israel to anti-Zionist Jews because it's not going to work otherwise? Thank you. My name is Dana. I'm Palestinian from Bethlehem. So I'm just going to talk about the whole region side happening now in Gaza. We're investigating reports reflecting on the economic motive behind the genocide. A lot of guys are down to create a water canal to replace the Suez canal. But do you think that the Zionist ideological motive kind of prevails over the economic motive here or are they the same or is it the economic motive that kind of prevails in this genocide? Thank you. To be quite simply around October 7th, Israel's reaction, I've been involved in Palestine for the rest of 55 years. It was very difficult obviously because you'd come across people like that you work with who supported the South African black struggle between the American Indians and one night at work I was talking to a friend about Palestine and say this person had supported all those things, came in and said, I wait for Palestinian because they're too violent. And of course I said go away and look at the history you will see that they used all sorts of struggle for their struggle. And it's always been a problem, there's exceptionalism with Israel, the exceptionalism of Palestinians. I've found that it's evaporated recently and I reckon it's a similar thing to what happened in Vietnam War. The Americans arrogantly went in, thought that would take a few weeks and there was this television war that showed all these massacres, four million Vietnamese dead and the Americans lost the war. Do you think a few friends of mine have said that they thought that Netanyahu knew that October 7th was going to happen. He let it happen because it helped him. I said look I would say that could have been the reason but I reckon it's stupidity and arrogance, the same sort of thing that happened in Vietnam. What do you think? Tommy, I'm going to answer your question. I hope you don't mind. I think, first of all, I have my family in Geneva as well. I hope your family's safe, really given everything. I grew up in Acheca, politically active. And a big part of my political activism in Acheca was also through political parties who are Palestinians, Palestinian political parties, such as the Dun Law or the National Democratic Assembly and others. So the part of your question where you ask about whether it is actually beneficial and would it be beneficial for Palestinians to work at the Israeli election. So I think obviously the answer is never straightforward because we know that the goal or the aim of Israel and the occupation or the ways in which the occupation manifests is not just by land grab and land theft and all that stuff but there's another social element and also it's a consciousness fight. It aims to also dilute your identity as a Palestinian. Suddenly you're not a Palestinian but you're an Israeli. Suddenly it's Na'aqqa, Ta'aqqo and all those kind of, you know, very familiar attempts at the arranger which is very aggressive and we experience it on a very aggressive level in 1948. So 1948 is not only subjected to the kind of like constitutional or like the official legislative aggression and violence of the Israeli state but also the Israeli society as well so there's two levels to that and then the question becomes would it be helpful if people boycott it or there were no actually Palestinian parties in the Knesset and that's a question that we're constantly grappling with. Every elections there's this question what do we do? Do we actually participate or do we boycott? Now the value of having political parties in the Knesset is mainly to speak to Palestinians. They don't go there, the Hanins or they never went there to actually speak to Netanyahu or you know to the Israeli public but Hanins or for instance or Azmi Shah went there to speak to the Palestinians because it is a war on our identity. It's, you know, they're there to talk about Na'aqqa they're there to talk about the ongoing and the cleansing. They're there to talk about all the permits that we're not allowed to have and all the houses that are being demolished that really people don't know that this is happening because Israel is, you know, it's great that's kind of hiding those facts. So I think it's a fair question and that's something that we're constantly re-evaluating. Every election we're like what do we do now? Do we participate or do we not participate? But I think given recently and how the shift in which is quite actually embarrassing the shift with regards to how the political, you know some of the political parties have been and they're attempting to kind of integrate such as, you know, we're not related, the same name was by the way. Because Israel is trying to use this participation to legitimize this apartheid system we actually told us that Israel really is apartheid system. I know your point it's the fake leaf, right? Isn't it? So this is what they are talking about as apartheid system and they claim that we have Palestinians participating in the electoral process. But this is a very superficial understanding of what democracy is, isn't it? Like if you claim that there was also elections in Egypt, right? So I think the fact that you have elections does not necessarily mean that you have democracy and that's what we need to tackle. But I think that the political, and look, this is a role that political parties would potentially also play outside of the kinesis, right? I've been doing that awareness raising and pushing that narrative that is the indigenous Palestinian population but just to answer that question so I don't know if we have a straightforward answer to that. I think it's something that we're constantly evaluating. Sorry, I'm very quick. Sorry, we covered all the questions. I think now Niko's going to address this. Pretty sure it is. I think you're much better equipped to answer that question than I am, that's for sure. So I appreciate that. I'll say two things about that. For my experience, one is I don't know how they can operate and that I've been to the kinesis several times, mostly to visit Palestinian members and it's the most racist, disgusting place I can even imagine. But I do, and it's not a straight, there's no way to answer that question, you know, clearly yes or no because there's too many elements. I think the reality is most Palestinian citizens who actually do boycott and don't vote. But when I see Ahmatebe or in the past, he was speaking Arabic from the podium and I see the reactions from the others about it. There's really going nuts, I think it's worth it just for that. He reminds them, as they should be reminded, you know, they're not really listening. He reminds everybody, and you know this goes on TV and this goes on social media, that this is Palestine. And he stands there, he's reading a very famous song, he reminds them, this is Palestine, this is his country, this is his language, and they can't, and there's nothing they can do to change that. And when kinds of, it was in the constitution, I'm crazy and keep reminding them that. So I think there's value in that, but again, I'm not the one that really has the ability to make that judgment. I think Palestinian citizens of Israel need to make that judgment. As for Janine, I mean Israel has been fighting, has been scared to death of Janine for a very long time. So all I can say is that we've seen just incredible heroism coming out of Janine for years now. I have a good friend who's a cartoonist from Janine, his name is Mohamed Sabane, and he does incredible work, and he's a good friend, and I love his stuff. And some of his cartoons represent that heroism from Janine better than anybody else I've seen, but I think it's because he's from there. But again, I think Israel has been terrified in attacking Janine's time, so that's just the reality, because Janine is a hub of great courage. Let's see. Yes, there's a number. So the second question, whether to confront or water down, I mean, you've heard my talk, I think, right? So I don't know that, I don't think there's any question about where I stand on this issue. Again, I'm not the one who has to suffer the consequences, like the things that you described. However, it's, you know, like I said, silence is a price, and the price of that silence is paid by, you know, the whole city. They're being killed. So it's a very tough choice, but as again, a good, good, good, good brother friend of mine, Bess and Janine, he says, you know, we expect to pay a price because we stand and resist, and we expect to pay a price, and we expect that our children will pay a price, and his daughter is, and all these kids will pay a price as a result of that. So it's a decision that needs to be made whether you confront it. And I think it's important to confront it also because how else are they going to know? How else are they going to know that this is racist and this is wrong? My mother used to say, if you don't tell a fool that they're a fool, they're never going to know. Sometimes it's, you know, we expect to pay a price when we stand up for something important. So one of the stories that came out and even by serious journalists like Seymour Hirsch in Washington to see and others, that somehow the Israelis knew a lot of things were seventh, but they let it happen. And it caught on. And once again, it's part of this incredibly stupid racist perspective that says that Palestinians were able to do something successfully, Israel had to be pulling strings. There's no way Palestinians were able to outsmart, outmaneuver, outstrategize and defeat Israel because they are, you know, intelligent and in our plan and in our fight for their courageous and smart enough to do what needs to be done. And I think that's part of that. So I reject that idea and actually call Seymour Hirsch. I actually called Seymour, I don't know if you know, today he was a brilliant, very important journalist. What are you talking about? I have a source. I have an Israeli intelligence officer who has a source. Of course! So I don't buy that. It's like another claim that Israel created Hamas because if there's a solid, brave, you know, resistance organization, Israel must have created it. Israel did not create Hamas. It takes the time to study it and I have. And I mentioned it in my second book in Justice, I mentioned Hamas a great deal. Then that's also nonsense. But again, this idea, it falls on, you know, very front of the ground because there's already this, you know, this preconceived idea that Palestinians are incapable. So if they did something and they were successful, Israel must have helped them somehow. So I reject that. I don't believe it's true for one second. I think it's nonsense. We probably hear my voice is about to disappear. So I just want to say thank you again for being here. I want to thank my friend Nassim Mashi. Before we get to this, I want to say over there, I can't thank you enough for organizing this and being here and being part of this conversation. And let's keep working for free Palestine. Thank you.