 Thank you very much for keeping it y in the morning. Thank you for keeping it y 2 5 4. My name is Ram Aguko. Just in time for the very next conversation of the day and this morning it's all about national values. Now, this conversation that we are talking about this particular morning, so it's all about helping the youth, you and I to understand the issues of governance and the youth empowerment. Well, how can we establish a positive understanding of national values and principles of governance amongst the youth across the country? How do we promote national values? This particular conversation is going to be very quite interesting for you and I because we shall be able to understand the effect of these issues and whether they play a role in our day-to-day activities. Values and society it's all about, you know, it's all we shall be conversing today. I'm joined by Josiah Musili. He's a secretary at the directorate of national cohesion and values at the Ministry of Interior and Coordination of National Government. Karibusana. Thank you very much. Thank you for finding time to join me this morning. Thank you. Yes. You remember we are broadcasting live on our website at www.kbc.co.ke forward slash y254. Remember it's www.kbc.co.ke forward slash y254. Follow up this conversation online and ensure that you participate with us, engage, give us your thoughts. The hashtag as always is why in the morning at Ram Aguko and at Y254 channel national values are they enshrani in the constitution and did you know about this particular issue? Are you aware that this the directorate that is the directorate of national cohesion and values is actually different from NCIC? Well today let's decipher this thing. Musili, let's first of all start with the director itself and its mandate. Why does it exist? What is its mandate and how key or how important is it especially in our country today? Thank you very much for hosting us today to speak about national values. It is important that we get to communicate to the youth on matters national values. The directorate of national cohesion was established in 2008 through an executive order in the then Ministry of Justice and Constitutional Affairs. So when the directorate is established it became the Ministry of Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs. Thereafter in 2010 we at on the promagation of a new constitution we were given the additional mandate on national values because the new constitution gave us national values in 2010. Just to go back a little bit the directorate was established as one of the institutions under the Agenda 4 kofianan process that recommended certain institutions to be established in government so that they can address the issues that led to where we got to in 2000 and after the 2007 elections. So basically that's how the directorate came into being. The commandant of the directorate is to guide in the implementation of the session of paper on national values and principles of governance which was approved by parliament in 2015. Of course the session of paper was developed by the directorate then there is also the session of paper on national cohesion and integration also developed by the directorate. So we guide the implementation of the two session of papers that guide matters national cohesion matters national values. The directorate is also the government institution that coordinates the preparation of the annual president's report on national values and principles of governance. As you may be aware the constitution at Tatiku 132 requires that the president reports once in a year in an address to the nation on what he has done to promote in the promotion of national values and principles of governance. So basically that becomes the background and the mandate to the directorate. And remember it's clear we should be clear in regards to this that the national cohesion and integration integrated commission is different from the directorate. Yes let me just mention that the NCSC is different from the director. The NCSC is an institution established by law by an NATO parliament with specific mandates that relate to matters hate speech matters national cohesion in terms of how how how institutions go about making sure that the representation of the diverse communities in this country is fair it's okay. So the mandate of the NCSC is very specific. It's basically an enforcement institution created by law that has a specific mandate just like the directorate has a specific mandate that relates to policy. As you may be aware policy is made by government policy is driven by government ministries and we are the institution in government that drives policy on both national cohesion and values. The NCSC is an enforcement institution established by parliament with a very clear mandate. So the two institutions are different. Very different and so today let's have this conversation on values on values and particularly values and its effect in the society or its importance. As you said it's enshrining the constitution but we will talk about that a bit later on. Let's decipher this issue. When we talk about national values what exactly are we looking into? First of all Ram let me just go back and tell you basically what values are all about. We have had this discussion with you in the past basically trying to understand what values are. Values are ideals or beliefs or standards of a social unit. When I talk about a social unit I'm talking about a person and I'm talking about the family I'm talking about society I'm talking about basically community I'm even talking about the nation as Kenya is. So values are ideals are beliefs are standards that we have given ourselves and agreed that this is the way we want to do it. And these terms can be transferred from one person to another and also influenced by one person to another. Of course there has been conversations as we engage our different stakeholders. There has been conversations that relate to is it really possible that you can teach values. Is it really possible that you can sit in a class or you can sit in a workshop and tell people what values are or is it are values just things that you look at people doing things you look at how people are conducting themselves you are mentored or is it or are values you know issues that we can sit across the table and and and tell you these are the values you must abide by these values. We take we take the position that it can be both ways. You can mentor people you can have values champions that that you know you look at Mr. Musilio look at Ram and say that I think this guy has values that I need to emulate. We also take the position that we can sensitize people we can tell Kenyans or we can tell our stakeholders that the values that we we think that the society or you should practice our ABCD and basically when you talk about national values we are talking about values that are enshrined in the constitution. And particularly now for the youth when you look at the way we have been conducting ourselves especially during elections can we say that we are these values that you're talking about here are taught to the youth to understand it you know is it something that has been affected on the ground the values. Let me say that you know engagements with the youth because you have engagements with the youth at the county level your programs that you run with the organized youth groups at the county level. I would say the answer is yes and no yes and no yes and no because when you engage these people they are they have issues that they erase and basically they are talking about how we have we do not have serious role models as far as values are concerned in society and when you try and talk to the youth and listen to them they ask you okay you are telling us that these are the national values or these are the values that you are supposed to live by but the leadership the people that my MP my my my local leader my local leader and others are not doing what you're telling us to do and there lies the problem there lies the reason why we should engage the youth more because I don't want to say that when you go beyond the youth you basically have we have lost it a little bit but I think the youth is a key segment of society that should embrace the national values so that uh as as you keep telling telling them all the time and as somebody has just commented that they are the future leaders as they become the future leaders we will have leaders that espouse the national values someone who said that they are not future leaders this is that they are current leaders they are current leaders of course they are not trying to bring the debate over what the youth is of future current well quite interesting but values are important yes um now now that you've defined what values are so now what is it that we are talking about when you say now national values uh when we talk about national values in uh in 2010 uh this country gave itself a new constitution yeah we should ask ourselves why did we think that we needed a new constitution and in that new constitution why did we think that we needed to have an article of the constitution that basically talks about national values it was a realization my answer is it was a realization that we had kind of lost direction and we needed to give ourselves a new direction in terms of the way we relate with one another and the way citizens relate with the government because national values uh regulate or influence the way i relate to you as a as a fellow citizen and the way both of us relate to to government as as as a as a government structure so these these values are in atikutan they were put there purposely to give direction a new direction to the to to this country because there was a realization across the board that probably we had taken a wrong turn and we needed to align the aspirations of the nation the destiny of the nation to to what me and you do on a daily basis and this is where i would like you to chip in just take your constitution go to article 10 find out what it is so that we uh we find out whether these are just allegations you know but well especially for the youth you're a young leader you want to know about these things you need to understand these things national values as enshrined in the constitution of kenya article 10 what are they you know do you have any questions in particular as we you know continue this conversation in regards to the definitive factors of national values have we lost our way how do we bring ourselves back into the you know promoting national values as a nation the hashtag is one in the morning at rama guko and that why 254 channel you are a youth what do you think about this well as talk about national values there is um there are different categories that i would like us to to touch on and i'm looking at the classification or the types of values that we have um what are the types of values that exist currently and you know just in brief before we touch on on it because i'm looking at uh at it in terms of uh uh the different sectors that exist in the country uh although this may be something that we'll discuss as we build on this conversation i will tell you that uh the values do not just land from nowhere yeah we do not just wake up and we imagined the the the 17 values that are in the in the constitution uh uh you will you can associate or you can link the values that are in the constitution to other values that exist within society and when i talk about other values that exist within society i'm talking about indibindu values i'm talking about family values i'm talking about societal values i'm talking about values that uh that relate to specific institutions like the institution that we call the public service we have uh article 234 that that outlines the principles the values and principles of the public service i'm talking about values then that we gave ourselves that we now call nation call nation of values so basically we go back to where i started and start looking at the the the indibindu as having certain values you as a person you have your their ideals their standards that you put for yourself as a person looking at the individual there is a way that you conduct yourself that you think that is a right way a responsible citizen should conduct themselves and and how then should we say that an individual has a role to play in this because now you say that in the different types of values we're starting with the individual first before you go to the family before we go to other things culture religious institution so as an individual what is my role in this your role uh just to mention a few of one or two of your roles is first of all to be a responsible citizen a responsible citizen is a citizen who will go out there and exercise their civic rights a responsible citizen is a citizen who will be honest as a responsible citizen is a citizen who obeys the rule of law and the rule of law is one of the values if you if you go to at kutem so we there are things that you as an individual need to there is a way that you need to conduct there are things that you hold dear if you are a responsible citizen as i say you need to be an obedient uh citizen who obeys the law a citizen who exercises their democratic rights civic rights all those things so that now we can look at you as as being a citizen an individual who has values certain values that you hold here then we move to the to the family yeah we move that to the that's what i was going to yeah sorry yeah yeah then we move then to the family yes if you look at the family as a as a social unit in that family there are things that the family uh holds has standards you know your family or my family there are things that we do therein as a family and and believe that that is the way we should conduct ourselves as a family they may not be written in a piece of paper but we have we have values like honesty we have values like humility your values like you know being morally moral moral uprightness within within the family unit and you know and it's quite interesting that you're saying that these things are not written there's some things that we just grew up and felt like i can't do this exactly and and and it is some these are things that we are taught from the basic level of the family and we are looking into uh different families because families are different um does it have like um uh uh a plane is it like a blueprint that should cut across different families regardless of societal or cultural backgrounds of course they are they are they are constants you know they are expectations that society would expect a good family that has strong values to be a family that uh that has honest people to be a family that that is humble to be a family that is god fearing for that matter to be a family that uh that teaches the members of that that particular unit that you need to to respect authority need to be a responsible citizen those those are those are the generals those are the general standards that you talk about but i i i do appreciate your your view that that families are different depending on different backgrounds cultures and all this i would not want to go to the rich and poor because i would expect a rich family as well as a poor family to be honest to to exercise honesty to be humble yes let's look at the issue of you know religious institutions you know in terms of how spiritual values and religious values also play a role because we we are talking about an individual and a family and now how big is it when the religious aspect comes into play uh ram uh it's it's it's it's not it's not uh uh a comment that i'm making it's not an original comment for me if i say uh it has been observed that there is a serious disconnect particularly in this country called kenya between the assertion that it is a god fearing society and why things seem to keep going wrong every now and then as you know with the with the good good good people i've got to exactly if you talk about god fearing uh society then you talk about uh uh a society that uh that that observes certain values that are contained in the religious teachings that we we go through every other every other day through i mean whether you talk about christians muslims or others they are teachings that we get from our religious uh our religions that tell us how to live with one another how to live within a society how to conduct ourselves and what not to do those things uh are related to to a very large extent to what we aspire to as a country but then now the question becomes uh as i've just said if we are such a religious uh country why is it then that uh these things that we consider to be not very good values continue to exist is it a realize the issue you know we need to translate uh what we learn uh what we learn through our various religions or through our various uh from the other way from the family through our various religions we need to translate that to how we live on a daily basis that is not what that is what is not that is not what is happening and couldn't be that you know um the the the religious leaders in the society you know have uh you know uh uh lag behind are they sluggish are they are they doing what they ought to do in promoting spiritual values or is it the you know a problem of hearing the message but not doing the particular message you know what could be the issue here it is not in my place to to assign uh blame because basically uh as i told you the the work that we do as a directorate is to go out there and tell people exactly how they want how they need to how they need to do it how they need to conduct themselves if they are going to live by the national values we we are not uh they are to tell you you are not doing abcd we are there to uh sensitize the public to reach out to citizens and tell them exactly what these values are how you're supposed to conduct yourself at all levels and uh the the religious community or religious leaders are one of our key stakeholders when we engage them we tell that we pass the same message but then of course you realize that uh there is a very huge difference between what i tell you and what you're going to do uh if i tell you the you need to uh to practice the national values which are clear and i tell you what the national values are and you go and do exactly the opposite then uh you cannot blame the person it's not that it's not that you didn't say what you wanted to say for the religious leaders i would believe that uh they are passing the message they are telling people exactly how to live by the values that relate to their respective religious doctrines but then uh it's up to the citizen it's up to the listener to decide how to conduct themselves so not proportionately but quite an interesting comment there you know that as long as you've you've done your part you know you've done your part to to speak it and say it as it should be so the role is now upon you and i ask anyans to implement what you've been taught or what we have learned in our religious institutions now let let's go to the organizational structures or the uh let's just the institutions uh what role do they have in this story here uh first of all even an institution like kbc i'm sure in this corridor somewhere you'll find uh our corporate values are you know values that you and everybody else that belong to this institution are supposed to live by they are on the walls they are on the walls but uh more often than not they remain on the walls they do not transmit to the to the to the to the to the to the persons that are that are supposed to practice those values that applies across the board it's not just kbc it applies across the board in institutions that are private institutions that are public but what the institution the role that the institution plays is that the institution must guide the the the members of that institution to believe and practice those national values sorry those values that that belong to that institution that then will help them to to focus on a certain goal that the institution thinks that by practicing those uh those values they will be able to achieve so basically values whether you're talking about national values family values institution values are the foundation values are become the foundation of everything else that will happen on what kind of trajectory the institution will take what kind of trajectory the family the the religious community will take that is determined by the values that they hold and these were institutions they also need to play to to realize they have a key role in affecting their workers exactly and influencing their actions at the workplace exactly because that is what translates to the family level at the family level so should we have like every institution you know how should they do it um do we should we have like every institution getting that you know the the values printed on the wall of every institution at the gate you know at the receptions you know because that it's not there in many places it's not not just on the on the walls and the gates there should be an extra step a deliberate effort to make sure that you do not just outline the values you you go the extra mile to make sure that the members of that institution practice the values that you have said for yourself you need set rules for it yeah you need to set mechanisms or making sure that those values are not just there but they are there they are practiced let's look at uh uh public service yes now the principles of public service um you know how important is it and how does it play a role also in this promotion of of values it is important that uh just like all other institutions that the public service that uh that uh manaji relies on to get uh services to to get government services for that matter operates within certain parameters and these parameters are basically what we're calling the the values and principles of the public service they guide every aspect of service delivery uh in the public service and the key one the the the the the the the the the most important one is to understand that you are there courtesy of the manaji that office that you occupy in the public service is for you to deliver services to the manaji you hold it in trust of the manaji and therefore that that's why the constitution uh provided for those values uh of the public service article 234 and then parliament went ahead and enacted an act to operationalize that that particular article