 Trying to get back to the basics of great products power comes from sharing information. I try to convince people to slow down Hello, hello, welcome back to the soaked by slush podcast My name is William von der Palen and today alone in the studio with the cco spin Nova lotta copra welcome Hi, good to be here. Nice to have you here. Do you want to start off by telling? audience a little bit about spin Nova When did you create the company and what do you do and and so forth? Yes, absolutely a pleasure being here So at spin over we aim to revolutionize the textile industry the way of making producing textiles Spin over is a technology that enables the production of textile fiber very sustainably Without any harmful chemicals and with very little water and it's a raw material. We can use Wastes many types of waste for example textile waste like cotton and Then agriculture waste like wheat straw and even food waste like anything from potato peels to cocoa pads and so on So very exciting and then we can use a certified wood like we typically do today Okay, so you can basically create create the material from a lot of different inputs You don't need to source new new material or waste resources in that sense So it should be pretty much of a closed loop in that sense. Yes, and it very much is so so Unlike what you're used to seeing in this industry. Our process has no side streams and Let's not go technical But but this is very different than than the production of let's say lyre cell or something else is yeah Okay, so what's the story then behind behind the company you've it's not you're a startup in that sense Yeah, you're you're popped up on the map quite recently with your IPO and some bigger partnerships But the company's is already it's seen a few years of operations, right? Yes It's quite a fascinating story how the company's founded so about 11 years back our co-founder Yuha Salamela Visited a research or a lecture series in the Oxford University and this lecture series about was about how the spider has been in the spiderweb and You have as the researcher at the VTT at the time Research in the Reology, so the science of flows in the context of pulp and paper and And at this lecture at that day, he got this crazy idea that what if he would combine his religion knowledge in pulp with How he got inspired about the mechanical process happening when the spider has been in the web and Bring those two together With the intention to create the textile five And so this is something that nobody else had had Questioned before or asked before and it was very very revolutionary. He went back to do VTT and made himself a few clumsy early trials and Those proved to be quite quite promising already very early, of course And then he and the other co-founder Janne Poranen Dedicated a research team around this topic and and that was the beginning. Yeah, no, it's fascinating. Yeah Yeah, why is this important? What is your vision for the company? Why are you doing this in the first place? Yes, we see this opportunity to revolutionize one of the biggest industries in the world and In a bigger scene we see now a big Disruption in the material space also in plastics not only in textile materials and and it's part of this development moving from chemical intensity towards Mechanical even electricity is an intensity as a bigger sort of phenomena ongoing and and and and our innovation is Can be classified as part of that but our innovation is it's very very disruptive one of the Many of our investors call it a true 10x innovation because it enables both a production of Very good quality fiber In terms of sustainability and product quality and at the lower cost Yeah, sounds like a good deal if it works. So Okay, you you work as a the CCO of the company and it's It's maybe not where it's it's obviously a common role. There are many CCOs, but it's not something we've talked about on this podcast at least before so It would be interesting just to hear what the role of a CCO is in a company like spinobo Which has a deep-tech innovation and it's now entering the market and trying to to create this solution on a bigger scale Yeah, to me, it's the most inspiring role ever. So it is first and foremost to create the product market fit so if there is a great innovation in place then one needs to validate the demand and the product qualities for the customer and for the marketplace and and that work Is ongoing and we have already validated The product market fit for many of the application categories that we can we can support now and and then of course that work continues In order to actually commercialize and scale this up. We need to have the product quality in place We need to have the sustainability values in place We need to have the scale very important and then the price and those we know For a big share of the market we already have today Yeah, so what does it look like day-to-day you you talk about product market fit validating So is it a lot of customer work? Is it how does it differ from from more traditional say head of sales role? Is this something you put in place before actually starting to sell? This is more of a as you said Strategic role validating role and and then after that you you maybe put a sales team in place or or Yeah Well companies are organized in a different ways for us. It's been over the commercial team looks at sales partnerships The commercial offering marketing brand such things so We built what is the commercial product together with the textile development team and bring it to the market Yeah, what do you think makes a good good CCO for for a deep tech company? What kind of skills for anyone, you know thinking about getting a CCO for their own company or or some founding team thinking about maybe Maybe having that role what kind of skill sets are important to be to be good at that job A good question I should have read the questions prior prior to Filming but if I shoot from the hip I Think one is to have both high ambition and flexibility Maybe that's a good definition. So So if you aim to revolutionize one of the biggest industries in the world, you there is always people around you that don't think it's possible So to to see through that and stick to your vision And they aim high in everything you do in partnerships in marketing in sales But the flexibility also very much so so and Finding the product market fit is not a straight line if you look backwards, so you need to build hypothesis start testing iterator hypothesis and so on and and to do this with the physical product requires time patience flexibility Maybe that's too. Yeah, I think that product market fit is something that obviously pops up talking about any company And it seems very or it's something you have to have in place before you start start scaling you joined in 2019 right so eight years after the company and the first Lectures had been seen and the company had been been founded how much of the Product market fit work had been done prior to your arrival and because if you look at the the kind of The time-scaler or for what happened what has happened in the past two years You obviously had a huge set of different announcements You've partnered with adidas and big other companies you IPO'd and you seem to be on everyone's lips now So what has happened here in the in the last two years or how much rather of that work had already maybe been done in terms of the product market fit work a Lot of course Let's put it this way firstly this company was founded six years back Spent off out of VTT But to your question So our innovation is is quite different so normally in textile industry you see Evolutions innovation evolutions so for example replacing one or several Chemicals with less harmful chemicals and and so on being able to step by step and moving towards a more natural dissolving for example phase of the textile fiber We do things very differently. So we take a technology that has been Planned for another industry and we We apply it in a new industry so that level of innovation takes a lot of time a lot of basic research and development and We have many many researchers in in-house And that's why it has taken us so many years first five or so years before Establishing the company and then six years after that and Then once we felt okay now our Technical setup is optimized enough and now our fiber that comes out of the process is is good enough To to be offered to the market then we were in fact quite amazed how things how fast Things started to develop We believe in product or in customer led product development so I think as Early as possible. It's good to go go out to the marketplace and try to find the Applications or that you can support with your current product offering and Optimize those to fit the market needs Yeah, so actually this year we have been shown in 2019 But this year we were we have been able to push out and communicate many of these things that have been done for a longer time. Yeah, do you think It's a common path if you look at other deep tech companies is it because it seems to be you know There's a big innovation you talked about 10x leaps Something that hasn't been done before requires a lot of validation. So is this a characteristic of deep tech companies that you Need to have patience you need to be prepared also to invest a lot of time Maybe in some cases a lot of capital to to then at some point hopefully see the results and then from there Maybe be able to scale quite fast Absolutely absolutely The way I see it is that Of course, there is the platform level the technology stack level development and optimization that Is there a need to needs to continue but while that continues as soon as it is possible I would start that the Customer-led commercial product development. So try to have an educated guess on what application areas would be would be good to start with and then find the leading customers who are committed in you and in innovation and Then learning yourself what brings value to the customer Who can be the pay that the customer that is willing to pay pay pay for your product? How much and all this work and and even things like business model development comes only after yeah Has it been hard to to approach these big firms these these companies and kind of be able to do some pilots try them or Or you know for other CCO teams or commercial teams looking to get into Possible pilot projects with their deep tech. Is there any any good tips on how to approach these quite big companies with these innovations? Yes, I Guess there's no magic bullet so It's always a chicken and neck thing. We have we have had the privilege to be very picky So we have quite a harsh customer prioritization criteria and and The commercial potential and elements of that is of course one one field and then the technical fit that we can support technical fitting It's always a function of time, but if you look at let's say midterm and Then in addition to that in this pre-commercial phase that we are in today It's very important to us that the customers is committed in us in in many ways. So they are willing to put money and resources in in Developing products with us. They are willing to take the risk of of maybe us not meeting quality or not meeting time demands So it's a big topic and I would say the biggest the customers pay us but the biggest investment from from their side might be the allocation of their best people and Testing and development capacity that they have And so one can be very fortunate to have that maybe also to mention that What we are very critical about is the is the shared values And and real commitment in sustainability By the customers. So this is sort of a ticket to play criteria for us. Yeah, exactly I'm curious. You mentioned you you have different potential applications for your technology. You tried some of them out already There's also a lot of talk about Importance of focusing not spreading yourself too thinly and and trying to really focus on the categories that will bring in revenue And and will work. So how do you prioritize between these categories? Is it through this same process where you you find the pilot customers to see what actually works? You see what is potentially? Viable commercially as well, or is there some other criteria also for them choosing the ultimate way to go go forward? Yes Yeah, it's a matter of trial and error and also there is a luck involved so It's quite fun. How we learn customer feedback is is essential. We see how our material develops And we we hear customer feedback. We see demo products customers make and Then we have some some guesses on and Hypothesis on on where to head next and there is of course many fun situations on the On the way where you know, we think we have been ready and customer doesn't or vice versa They get excited about something that we don't feel we are ready at yet. So I think a humble attitude and and Hard work on this side of the table as well as the customer side. Yeah, and yeah, if you think about other companies still trying to Extract some of the wisdom you've you've gathered from the past years. What are the challenges? Do you think there might be for deep tech companies struggling to maybe communicate their innovation get get going even though Because it seems like this is a discussion you see in Finland quite a lot actually We have a lot of really good technology, but we are not that good Maybe at commercializing it or getting it out there Maybe that has changed now in the in the past few years, but no doubt. There are still teams probably struggling with this Are there any what other? You know reasons do you think there might be for for deep tech companies that are not maybe thriving in the way they could be mmm Yes Well, I have a commercial background. So so for me, it's easy to ask these stupid questions To try to make clear that what is it that we have already enough stupid questions from our technical team as well as the client and To then identify what we have ready to commercialize today and I Think it all comes down to having that hypothesis in place And then validating those and It takes it does take courage to really put the customer in the center to ask stupid questions also go early to the NGOs or other industry players when you're not ready To then sort of reveal who you are. What are your weaknesses? What are your strengths to then? With them you may be able to push push your offering forward quicker. Yeah Do you have any good stories or examples from the past few years where maybe you surprised yourself or your team as well with with? you know with With success or with getting getting a partnership that no one thought was possible or maybe finding a Finding a good niche that that you hadn't thought about before that could maybe shine also some light on the CCO role or on the commercial team on what they do In in in this kind of commercial commercialization path of the company We have been very excited about how the customers for example at it as how they see us Not only in replacing jeans or cotton t-shirts Or replacing cotton in jeans or our t-shirts or such but but also in high-performance materials And so so spin over now outside the ideas collaboration But but in general spin over might have very good properties in terms terms of thermal insulation or odor management That we don't see today in other ways or would so say a lot of space materials And and of course customer being excited about that and investing in that in such areas is Very inspiring to us. Yeah, I must admit I haven't actually checked out that is your like fabrics Is it available already to buy in like some products that are sold on the market or I know you're building your factory next year And you're gonna go You know scale and and try to really commercialize the materials and I guess that's the point We're gonna see it hopefully like unmask in a lot of products But are you like some products that you can already see see these fabrics in and maybe also Does it feel different? Is it like would I know if I went to the store? This is a spin over spin over fabric and not something similar or like that We're used to as cotton or something like that. Yes, you can buy spin over and We have had three products in consumer sales. So we have had this backpack and then a shirt and then And under rock and Anna rucks are now in now in sale With Burgans of Norway an auto brand. So so you can just go buy them Would you know how do you recognize been over and Spinoa is is very much like a like a natural fiber So it has this natural fiber look feel structure warmth that for example cotton has or or wool or linen and That's that's a very nice position to be be in actually because If If the textile market is ex today, it's one million one hundred and ten million tons per year It's gonna be 150 million tons in 2030 so quite a big growth and the supply of natural fibers like cotton is not growing and That is just due to the fact that the land area type of land area required for for cotton farming is not growing And but then the demand of cotton and other natural fibers is growing with double-digit numbers. So So we are very fortunate to have something that is is a scar city in the market today. Yeah, that's a good position to be in I want to talk a little bit more about the the partnership still and and trying to Understand how those were created since they are quite unique still for a very or a company That is quite early on and you partner with brands like the North Face and HM and Marimekko to name a few You may already mentioned about the criteria you choose the partners with to be You know have a right value fit and and to be able to and to invest time in and also resources and stick with you but still like curious on on how you approach or how do you like How some of these partnerships were created like to get some some I know there's no magic bullet But still still like that seems like it's something pretty unique to to to you Or at least you've been good at communicating it and then got quite a few of those partnerships done in the in a very short time It seems Well, thank you We feel we are very early in communicating our product but then Yes What our partners many times highlight is that they like the finishness in us So they extreme honesty Hard work and honesty We are we are not marketeers for them. We are a sort of an honest startup. This is what we have we will open our production and our Our Technical components to you. Let's work together So that and and then Then what is very important is that it's not only the technical product that is our product or service, but it's Also that we sometimes say that we our product is the sustainability as a service So we need to have the sustainability facts the product facts and The transparency throughout the chain all the way the raw material in place So that our customers can then build their product level story their Product a family level story company level story as to see you see or two measures But but everything really and there we see a big role for spinowa in the future We are now building that we have a quite an extensive and high quality back office operations in place and and systems Allowing this transparency for example and that that is a big focus for us for us as well I think we have an advantage being a sort of new generation player so this is something that would be very very difficult for for a Cotton industry for example But we are a technical tech technology company. So we want to lead in this area, too Yeah, no for sure the the product you sell is a very timely timely one and needed one So so that probably helps but from my experience at least when approaching this big in like international companies There seems to be you know armies of people to to get through to actually find then the teams that make the decisions So do you have like how do you structure a sales process or the process of approaching these companies? You can't probably just find one person and then try to get in Do you do you need to yeah, like is it just a cold call emails or do you meet them at some convention? What is the like nitty gritty approach of actually then getting the first discussions going and then also like Figuring out who is the decision makers and all these quite quite technical sales things that at the end of the day Will matter quite a lot to getting through the door. Yes, absolutely all of that dimension. So There's calls, but we also get a lot of contact in inbound That makes it a lot easier. Yeah But it is all about like you say Identifying the decision-making process at the other end finding the that is a decision makers Like we know in all sales work. So so that's a that's a big part of our work Understanding that for the early phase where we do joint development There it's easier because the group of people deciding is is typically one team or Then maybe some sponsors on top But then when you go to commercial scale, it's quite a big audience quite many Units involved quite many decision makers And then you have in addition to innovation teams you have the business units you have the sourcing you have materials you have Organizations you have designers and then you have the top management who also wants to have their view and So all of these different stakeholders have different questions We need to serve all of them. So it's it's then different in this stage Are there some good tips on because there's a lot to talk about having these kind of hidden decision makers in every company that you never see at meetings They are the ones that get forwarded the pitch decks after the meeting and they can have surprisingly much influence on the decision process but you never as a salesperson you don't get to identify them and you can't really Pursuade them that easily since you don't even know who they are Is this something you've seen that, you know, it's looked promising you you've convinced in your mind all the right people But then you get a no and it seems like there was someone in the backgrounds not wanting it to happen Do I see this no because it's hidden. Yeah, does it happen to me? Absolutely This is something that is difficult to impact when you are on the outside once you're inside then then it's different but But maybe one thing we do try to do is is finding a sponsor a hero Sponsor who heroes has been over who then acts as an internal sales person Reminds people sales the topic brings it to the right persons inside So that's our approach. Yeah, I'm all those are always always Yeah, exactly. What about then if you you mentioned the Getting the customer feedback working with the product together with the with the customer early on trying to to develop it together and then then getting to something that everyone is Satisfied with how does this process look like and what kind of input do you want from the the customer and do you structure it? In a more methodical way or is it human or more sending sample getting feedbacks? Rewarding doing a new version sending or do you have workshops or or how? What is the what is a good way for a deep-ted company to structure something like like that? all of that We do all of that. So It's our technical team working together with the client's technical team Hopefully as one in the credit team the tighter the team the better and One can do for example weekly iterations Where we develop material we send it over The customer test is out gives the feedback and we iterate And then in textile development, there's also parts that the client can do and then When there was no corona one would visit quite often So to then see and and now we are back to traveling Luckily, but it's important also to touch feel give advice learn So it really is something with you together. Yeah, so quite like a traditional deployment of much anything from from it to you know, whole factories or whatever. Yeah, yes Yeah, I was also curious like I Come from a similar background in that sense that I also have a commercial background Not very scientific. No real skills. So to that to that end in in like hard knowledge But yet there seems to be a need also for commercial people in especially like companies like this with with deep tech where you usually have It's science-based. Maybe the people who have come up with the idea. I don't have a commercial background Don't necessarily have the skill sets necessary to commercialize What do you think is a good way for someone for with a commercial background? Maybe who's been an entrepreneur Is looking to get into entrepreneurship wants to do something with? Yeah, deep tech something with climate tech or whatever to To find maybe these kinds of people or solutions in the first place and then also to maybe pitch themselves because I can think Personally, this is also for me this these questions because I'm interested in this but I think there are many people thinking about these matters that they maybe want to do something with with more impact when I Go and work for companies that do stuff like this and and maybe not Do something more traditional Traditionally start up and not that there's anything wrong with that But I think I can see at least in myself and a lot of people around me that this is kind of becoming now Something that people are thinking about but there seems not like to be any any good ways or any Setout ways to approach this problem as a commercial person Go apply we have many positions open just now Maybe the first thing so I think an entrepreneurial background. It's very good like like yourself Myself I found that my first company When I was 21, I think I didn't fly far, but I think the mindset is still there I found that the company that did fly just under 30 and And it was a digital about digital advisory so strategy and transformation. We worked mostly abroad for large companies So it was a very very good Path of learning for me To be able to together with my co-founders to be able to find a company scale it win Big clients abroad as a small Finnish company So internationalizing it and this was by the way before we see the internationalization of let's say Futurized our reactor. So we the only example we had was management events Going abroad quite small, but still and then Building a team then then selling the company. So all of this teaches a lot and Yeah, what commercialization is really about is it is a certain skill set So it does help of course to to have seen the things before or have done the things before but even more so it's about Asking the right questions and optimizing the right things and and having Having the sort of street wise attitude to Engage the right people and and so on Understanding the technology enough to be in the intersection of of business and tech and I must say that in Abroad there is a marketplace for that. So I think around the leading VCs internationally. There is So the CEO market They they all have long lists of candidates for promising companies So maybe we don't have that in Finland. Yeah, and I don't know if we have it because like she seems to be Maybe a you know, maybe the supply and demand don't quite match. I think and this is intuition now So I don't know if this is this is correct or not, but there seems to be a need for more Discussion between the maybe the more academic side and the no commercial side of things and it would be very fruitful to have more interaction and and if you found something like a deep-tech company, it seems to be even more important to have a very varying Skill set in the in the founding team since the product is not We're not a web shop like or something very technical very easy where it's a commercial. It's a product that In most cases, you need to have quite specific knowledge to even be able to think about Let alone create but then the commercial people will not be able to do that But then maybe the as I said, maybe the the founding team or the more academic side In some cases at least will not be able to commercialize it and it seems like the discussion is maybe happening now I know VTT is doing quite a lot of work around that and there seems to be deep tech funds coming So maybe we're lagging a bit behind but there's there's becoming a more supply now, but Yeah, I think that's something that maybe would be needed also to to have more fruitful conversations and also partnerships between the sectors Yeah, that's a good maybe also a pot topic for you So what is this skillset needed skillset for a commercial? person yeah Because of course you need the analytical skillset and you need to have the track being able to Approach a problem in a very analytical manner with numbers and with qualitative areas To have the right hypothesis in place backed by data But then like said, I think it's still more about the ambition and flexibility Yeah, no, I think yes. Exactly. Yeah, it seems like that. It'll that'll be very very important Maybe to to part of then What's next for for spin over the coming coming years? What will happen if everything goes as planned? Yes, well now we are just stepping into the commercial phase of the company, which is very exciting So next year we will have our scale commercial quite a small Commercial scale up and running and then gradually we increase that the capacity There is big things coming up in the sustainability area The product quality Is already there for for a big number of applications and that validation work continues And then price is something And business models is something that we now have for the next times ahead and and then we constantly iterate Further work with that to have it optimal for for each phase of the company This all gives a very good foundation for for building the the optimal partnerships For spin over both in the value chain area as well as the The customers and it's a B2B B2B to see company So then together with brand partners, we build that awareness and position amongst consumers That's a big task ahead for us. We could not do it alone But we want to be the the credible player for the critical audience out there Somebody they can trust trust in and then slowly increase their awareness amongst the bigger audience Sounds exciting. I'm gonna follow the follow the journey and then I hope for the best as well So best of luck. Thanks for for coming on the show Thank you. It's a pleasure being part of the part of so thank you And thank you to everyone who tuned in see you in the next episode Remember to subscribe and rate and hate and everything else to see you. Bye. Bye