 It started out as a research study to describe what the elements are over design driven culture, but the research took an unexpected turn when the stories of the participants unveiled a disturbing pattern. The day to day reality of design professionals is not what most expect and not in a good way. In this conversation you'll hear everything about the research, about the most important insights and how you can use them to find more meaning and joy through your work. Here's the guest for this episode. Let the show begin. Hi, I'm Marc and welcome back to The Service Design Show. On this show we explore what's beneath the surface of service design. What are the hidden and invisible things that make the difference between success and failure all to help you design great services that have a positive impact on people, business and our planet? Our guest in this episode is Mauricio Manias, a well respected leader in our field who has had many roles, including being the service design professor at SCAD and most recently being the service design director at Truist. We're in a very interesting time as a community. More and more organizations are growing their internal service design capabilities. Sure, we have layoffs every now and then, but the overall trend is pointing up. And as service design professionals, we are stepping up our game by connecting with business leaders and showing that we can be even more impactful. But even though service design is on the rise, it's no time to celebrate as you'll hear in this episode. Because when you look under the surface at how design is adopted within a lot of organizations, you'll see that we still have a very long way to go. There are some systemic issues that aren't just wasting time and resources, they're also hurting careers and the well-being of many design professionals. When Mauricio started having conversations with some very well respected and accomplished design professionals to uncover what a design driven culture looks like on a day-to-day basis, he uncovered through the stories that the pattern that emerged looks a lot more like workplace bullying instead of what one might expect from a design driven culture. It turned out the things like social exclusion and verbal hostility weren't isolated events that just a few individuals experienced. They were the disturbing commonality amongst many design professionals. And findings like this were just the tip of the iceberg. The outcomes of the research have recently been published. So I invited Mauricio on the show to share the most important insights with us. Not to blame or point fingers, but just to get a deeper understanding of the situation design is currently in. So if you stick around till the end of the episode with us, you'll know what workplace bullying actually means from a designer's perspective, what the systemic issues are that are creating this harmful environment and what we can do to take the first step in order to try and fix this. I hope you're ready because this is going to be a very important conversation. So sit back, relax and enjoy the chat with Mauricio Mañas. Welcome back to the show Mauricio. My pleasure. Always a pleasure talking to you. I had a look in the service design show archives and the last time we officially spoke on the service design show was back in, I think it was January 2017. So that's six years ago. And episode number 20 Mauricio. And now we're at 186. Isn't that amazing? Yes, it's amazing. The work you're doing with this series is awesome. Some people call it crazy. But it will preserve a history of the field, right? That's amazing. A snapshot in time. That's true. I haven't looked at it like that. And I think if somebody would have the courage to analyze the episodes, they could make a snapshot of the service design field every six months. And I think we would definitely see some patterns emerging and trends evolving. Yeah. Don't get me started. That would be interesting to do, for sure. Nowadays with AI, I think that's going to be a much more feasible act. But anyways, Mauricio, good to have you back on. We've spoken outside of the show quite a few times as well, but it's good to have you officially back on. For the people who have no clue who you are, have never heard of you, haven't seen your name online. Could you give a quick intro into what you do these days? So I'm originally from Brazil. A city called Florianopolis, the southern part, moved to the United States in 2015 to teach at the Savannah College of Art and be the grad program coordinator of service design and left SCAD joined tourist bank as a service design director and left the bank in the end of March this year, 2023. And I'm working as an independent consultant focusing on service design in AI, taking this time to really dive deep into how can we use AI tools, not so much to provide services, but in our practice. That's my main focus for now. I would love to talk about that topic as well, but that's not the focus of this conversation. I'm really interested in computer aided service design through AI. That is already happening and there's a lot to explore there. Mauricio, before we dive into today's topic, the research, I have a lightning round which you haven't experienced before. I have five questions for you. Just answer them as quickly and as briefly as possible. Just the first thing that comes to your mind. And sooner, the quicker we get through these questions, usually the better it is. And this is just to get to know you as a person next to the professional. Are you ready? Perfect, ready. If you could recommend just one book for us to read, which book would you recommend? Oh my god, you're asking a heavy reader. As quickly as possible Mauricio. The first one that comes to your mind. I would recommend one book that really changed my life was Truth and Method by Hans Gort Gademer. Heavy reading, but it really was important. Usually the heavy readings are the ones that are impactful. So, thank you. Moving on to question number two. Let's see if this one is easier. What did you want to become when you were a kid? I wanted to be an aircraft builder. That's still my hobby today. I love building aircrafts and remote controls. Oh nice. I'll bring my drones next time I'm around and then we can do some flying. Yeah, I guess that's an excuse for us to have these kind of playful hobbies. Mauricio, you're now in Savannah, but if you could pick a place to work from anywhere in the world, which place would you pick? I have a strange relationship with Madrid. I'm usually a small town person. I love small towns in Madrid for many reasons. I've been there since I was a kid several times and always surprised me that I've never lived in Madrid, so I actually don't know, but would be Madrid. Messiness and a big city and I don't know, I love Madrid. And the fourth question is what's always in your fridge? Yogurt and ice cream. I can leave out of ice cream. Which flavor? Mostly fruits, mango, pineapple. I'm not very much into the sugary thing, more like this. All right. I could leave out of this. Fifth question, tradition, and again Mauricio, challenge to you. Keep this one brief because I know you could spend a whole episode talking about this one. When did you first learn about service design? I learned about service design was around 2005, 2006, after a project that you went really bad and I was desperate to find a better way to do this. There must be a better way to develop softwares and I found service design and connected to Professor Birgit Maguer and it changed my life. There we go. And the rest is history. Thank you. Thank you for this lightning round Mauricio. Always nice to learn a few things about you that I didn't know personally as well. Let's dive into the main topic of today's episode, the research you did. We're going to unpack, try to unpack as much as possible but the research, like there's always more to explore so this isn't going to be a comprehensive, all-encompassing explanation of what it is but we want to give enough information that gets people curious, that's already applicable, that they can use and take and run with it but there's always more to read and learn. So yeah, let's see how practical we can make it. So let's start at the beginning. I've been referring to the research but what is the research? What is the study? What is it called that you did and that you recently published your results from? Yeah, so that was a series of interviews with designers in North American, working in North American corporations and I tried to capture their daily, ordinary experiences. But as a designer, what happens to you in corporations? Not macro things but in the daily, ordinary activities, daily work activity and that resulted in a paper when they start to tell me their experience, their daily workplace experiences. So it almost sounds like you did a typical user research study a day in the life of, but in this case, a service design professional wondering why nobody had thought of this before. What made you embark on this journey to explore this? Because you might assume we already know what service design professionals do on a day-by-day basis. You teach this stuff so like why did you do this? So it was completely unplanned, serendipitous. I started to contact some friends in management, design, management roles in corporations and discuss with them what is design-driven culture. Do we have a framework that is there like a set of elements that compose a design-driven culture? And in total, I don't know, I contact 15 people during this, trying to map the design-driven culture and they would say, oh, design-driven culture has to have an element X. So okay, in abstract element X is interesting but how in a daily life this would make a difference, right? In the work experience, how that would change. And they would tell me episodes that happened to them and mostly not pleasant episodes that they went through, right? And they say if element with X, X was there, or Y, that would not have happened. Okay, as a way to justify why that person was advocating for that specific element. And when I start to collect those high-level experiences, they start to cluster into four groups. And okay, what is this? What groups are these? They were very similar. And then I did a literature review around these four types of experiences. And actually the literature, the academic research literature that talks about these four experiences is the literature about workplace bullying. That's the breakdown, right? What? All these people, in my opinion, well-placed, successful in organizations are, experience these four types of workplace bullying. What is this? Then I shift gears and started to contact them about this. So hold on, Maurizio, before we dive into that, because okay, so you start out trying to explore what is a design-driven culture, right? That's your initial question. Not in theory, but what does it look in practice? I'm assuming you're expecting to hear about the context that the organization has created, like, I don't know, budgets, teams, forms of sport, like all the, you're expecting to hear something like this, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But you hear something else. Yeah. So whenever I explain, oh, why this would be valuable, right? Oh, if we have a budget, if we have an independent instructor, why justify to me why this would be important, right? The interview, I would ask the interviewer, and they say, for instance, this happened to me, blah, blah, blah. They'll usually a very not so good experience and say, if the budget or whatever was in place, I would not have gone through this, right? So that was the, they were trying to advocate for what element they want to add, and trying to do so, they would say, or tell me an experience that wasn't pleasant. That's how I started to collect these experience, right? Oh, if you have an independent instructor or a budget, this will not happen. And then immediately start to become way more interesting to talk about the lived experience than the abstract state of, okay, whatever. So yeah, so the enabling, the enabling factors of a design driven culture, like that was your initial hunch, turns out that people were much more interested to share about what it's, what it feels like to be and design professional inside an organization. And that made you flip the research to focus more on those experiences and document what is it like, what is it actually like, not according to the theory, but based on lived experiences. And while going through these conversations, a few patterns emerge, correct? Yeah. So the four types of the experience that they were telling me or sharing with me are social exclusion, which felt like strange, social exclusion. That's the technical name, right? They didn't say this. They said, oh, I was not involved in high level meetings or strategic meetings or important decisions. Whenever I was consulted, there was already some kind of decision made. Then they also refer to ways that their work was obstructed. And actually, the technical name is obstruction, like work obstruction. You try to achieve something and you are somehow prevented or lured into something else and you can't finish what you tried. So yeah, let me comment briefly on that one. So that's, and I haven't checked with you, but please let me know if these were mainly people inside an organization rather than an agency. I'm assuming they were, but the thing that I've been hearing quite often is a comment in the form like, they've hired me as a service design professional. And now that I'm in, the organization isn't allowing me to do the work that they actually hired me for. And it's not uncommon. It's not always the case, but it's not uncommon to hear a comment like that. Yes. And the surprising fact was I tapped into people on management level in large organizations like my network. So if you check the population that was interviewed, you will see clearly they are my network, right? 71% worked on companies of 7,000 employees or more on North America. 51% male, 40 something female. 80% had a master degree or higher. So people that would not be innocent or ignorant of the situation, right? So that's very interesting to hear about the context. And I'm sure that within the research you document even more about who the group is. So you mentioned social exclusion as the first pattern, obstruction. Work obstruction, verbal hostility. Verbal hostility. Yeah. People diminishing what someone said during a meeting in a very top-down way, right? Ah, this makes no sense. That's bullshit or something like this. And then stereotyping. Oh, designers, you know, designers, creative people, right? So the consistency throughout, and one thing that was interesting was talking to them, people that I consider and admire highly, right? They were kind of self-blaming. They were saying, oh, I should have done this. I should have done that. Oh, that was my fault. I was not able to communicate. But when you put this all in perspective, right? At the end, I talked to more than 25 interviewed, more than 25 people, and then had 13 surveys on the thing you responded. And when you put this in perspective, Sylvia blamed herself because she did X and should have done A. John did A and think he should have done X. And no matter what, the result was always the same, right? So it's kind of like, whatever you try, at the end, this happens, right? And again, I'm not talking to junior or initial young career designer, right? No, I'm talking to experienced designers. And at some point, the self-blaming didn't make much sense, right? Well, yeah, I can imagine. And also, unfortunately, I resonate a lot with what you're saying, because those are the stories I also hear, for instance, with the in-house service designers that I sometimes often speak to. And when it's just you, and you have no benchmark, you don't hear the stories of others, like the first thing that you do is you assume that it's you, because other people within the organization somehow do manage to be successful, right? If somebody, department A, B, or C is successful, and you're not, it might feel like that it's your fault, right? So, yeah, these four things, you mentioned workplace bullying. When did this epiphany happen that you realized, hey, something, we are seeing a much bigger systemic issue here? Yeah, that's exactly right. When you interviewed, like, in total, I guess it was 27 interviews, by the 10th, right, in total, since the design driven culture, it's more than 50 half an hour chats. But when we decide to focus on this, having done like the 23 prior to the ones we started to focus on this, and then by the 10th that you're specifically asking for these experiences, you can't ignore a trend, right? It was blunt, like, I didn't have to dig deeper. It's what thrown on me, this harsh environment that they were experiencing. How did you feel about this? Like, you're at some point, you're like, I'm onto something. And then, how did you as a service design professional who has a passion for this field, feel about this? It was not a pleasant experience. I have to tell you at some point when I was in the really at the midst of the thing, family, friends were always asking, are you depressed? What's happening? Because the shock was, it was a breakdown, right? Using Alveson's concept of breakdown, like, oh my God, I'm talking to people who I admire, who I reach out for advice. And they are telling me that their experience, all these intelligence and experience that I see in them, didn't protect them from having this sort of experience, right? And having thought and having connection with many young designers, I could, I couldn't refrain or avoid becoming sad for them in a way. It's, on the one hand, you could sort of maybe gain an even deeper sense of respect for these people who are in these situations and still advocating for the value of design, still pushing for human centered perspective, even though like, all the odds are stacked against them and they feel it, like maybe they have become resilient to it or just ignore it. Or I would be curious to hear some of these coping strategies that you found. But on the other hand, like you said, it's hard to ignore that you also feel sorry for these people because we wish them all the best. We want them to succeed. So yeah, I don't have a question here, but just a remark. Yeah, the thing was they were all self blaming, right? Only, no, that was my responsibility to make it work. But again, and all protected by non disclosure agreements, right? They were mostly or most of them were talking about past experience in the timeframe sense. The oldest one that was told me was in 1990 way, 1998. And the most recent one was in 2023. And again, the consistency and clarity of this experience. Ask begs the question, right? It's not their fault. There must be something playing on top of this systemic. So this begs the question. How do we label this systemic thing? Is that workplace? Is that described as workplace bullying? Or do you have other ways to capture that? Yeah, so the first connection was with the literature on workplace bullying. And then Alveson has a very well known paper on advertising agencies. And he makes in this paper a connection between femininity and creativity. And how this impacts how creative professionals are treated and treat others. And that's the connection that was interesting, because it puts the problem that designers are facing, not as a thing against designers, but is the same models operandi that creates the creates the gender gap, the pay gap between women and men. The lack of minorities are in a higher ranking organization. At the end, it's all the same thing. It's this male dominated world, right? And everything that sounds holistic and static, creative, is labeled as feminine. That's the both in terms of the literature in workplace bullying that kind of nudges into this. In order for you to ascend in an organization, you need to be male, in a sense, the aggressive and heartless and concrete in a way. And then the connection that Alveson does, it's unforgiven, right? There's no way for you to not see the picture. So when I start to go back to the interviewees and say, Hey, this is what I'm seeing. That's when I started to hear them say, Oh, okay. So organization streets, designers like women in several different wordings and tones from surprising to, Oh, okay, makes sense. Right. That was also a very cathartic moment. Okay. So we're not dreaming when you present. And that's the tone of the article at the end, the touch point article that published. The intention was just to describe, but we're not raising any controversy or stark catchy sentences, right? But when we start to present afterwards, we had this STN cafe with the first presentation of the results. The reaction was the same. Okay. The designers are treated like women, right? Not women, the sex, the sex assigned at birth, let's say, but the stereotypical femininity traits. So the word is femininity, not women. Right. But that's the help people, the knee jerk reaction was, Oh, also treated like women. And yeah, what does that mean? Few discussions I had with more the academics about this. The two, two ways, I guess, right? One is, Oh, okay. So we're part of a bigger thing. We're not the ones that are prosecuted or it's not personal. It's not about personal, right? It's not designed. It's a bigger picture is everything that is not this stereotypical cisgender white male in intersection, intersectionality, right? The far you are from this cisgender white male, the more you will be bullied. Yeah. The more you'll have to, the more struggle you will experience on your journey. Yes, your journey. Yeah. Yeah. And that goes into all dimensions, not just design, but it could be people of color, like you said, or whatever form of quote unquote, women, quote unquote, minorities. This is encouraging at the same time. Yeah. But that's the thing that I was kind of happy. If we can use the word happy is, Oh, okay, so we're part of a broader issue, right? We have more allies to tap into, right? It's not just, Oh, let's see how designers can fit better in the organization. It's broader and way more, in my opinion, interesting. So yeah, some people who are listening to this right now will be like, you know, I've been experiencing this thing all my life already, because again, I'm somebody of color. I'm from a third world country, whatever, like, and they will be listening to our conversation, like, what are you talking about? This is my daily reality. But yeah, you are, yeah. Yeah, Mauricio, one thing we didn't yet tap into in this, maybe a sidestep for a minute, but you mentioned that you just wanted to capture reality, like create a snapshot in time rather, instead of giving maybe a judgment. And I think part of your, the way you communicate the insights or the outcomes is through journey map, correct? And can you tell us a bit more about that? So they started to point, again, every time that they were mentioned, things that happened to them, they would place this in time, in a sequence, right? In a context. So the journey kind of started to present itself. And as a service designer, that's a journey, right? If you joined, you just joined the organization, you would have more stereotyping kind of events. And later on, you have more work, in the middle, you have more work obstruction and later on social exclusion, right? It seemed to have a sequence. It would change if you're working on an independent org inside the company, or the design org was part of IT or marketing, whatever, right? So the journey kind of like revealed itself, right? If you have a hammer, everything is a nail, right? So it was easy, obvious for me that, okay, we need to put this into a graphic. And if you want to see this GraphQ, you've shared this online so people can easily access this. I'm going to jump back from question to question, because so many things are on my mind here. I want to circle back to what you said about people, maybe you take blaming themselves for not being able to achieve success. I want to talk with you about the balance in taking ownership of the issue versus being the victim and pointing like they don't understand the like you see like we're we're being treated like women and it's it's it's their fault. So it's it's very it seems to be very polar. It's like you're either the victim or you take full ownership and then it's like you might get depressed from that. Is there like there must be a third strategy because both of these don't seem to be very healthy? No, no. Yeah, the precise right so at first they were blaming themselves I should have done this should have done that. And at some point we saw now this is a major issue, a bigger issue and it's not sometimes you would hear a reference to a specific person oh that manager was awful. But then you see this kind of complaint going on over and again referring back to the academic research they say it's not a bad actor right a bad actor would not be able to act that badly if there was not a support system. So clearly the past show them all it's don't don't try to pinpoint the bad actor because this becomes me against you right like oh I'm right you're wrong and and the literature is very clear on suggesting this right don't try to find the of course reserving clear legal issues like unlawful behavior mostly they fit into this larger picture right there's a system that rewards a certain behavior and even when I was providing the first return of the results several women that were had grown and ascended in corporations they were all very honest saying no yeah I play male in order to go up so it's bigger than yeah yeah yeah well the good thing about this is that we should be really good at analyzing this by zooming out taking a more holistic view don't making it personal and just like the third strategy is let's understand the system like you said that we are part of how is it rewarding certain types of behavior then look at that and change the the context change the system that we're in easier said than done most likely but yeah that's that's probably the most helpful approach so now that we have this this this observation this snapshot and this these insights how do we actually use it to to improve the situation assuming that we want to improve the situation assuming that there is something that needs to be fixed and I think there is but the article itself just presents a picture like the journey map and suggests that people should discuss over as a boundary object right so hey well this happened to me this happened to sylvia this happened to john and there are all these things that might happen forward right just a discussion the integration of this discussion into a larger picture involving minorities and women would would be the the way forward especially for designers right you give designers the the the context and they will find out the way to apply or design the journey forward right so we refrain from from providing any type of suggestions or solutions to them yeah I can also imagine Mauricio that sure this is going to be hopefully very empowering to designers to start a conversation around this topic at the same time these organizations with higher design professionals and want to create apparently who want to create a design driven culture or bring design into the organization I'm hoping that they want to do that in a successful way that they don't want to waste resources time they don't want to fail and this could be a piece of the puzzle to show like if you put design in a system in an environment which looks like this then these are the outcomes that you can expect so like even before you it's not a disclaimer or it's not a manual but it's creating awareness about like the garden metaphor comes up over and over again but if you're trying to plant design on I don't know in a desert it's not going to work right so like what kind of soil do you need does it make yeah does this make sense that organizations could use this so we're speaking in terms of cost right so talking with these senior designers several of them went through this process in three different organizations right so higher designers establish a design team at some point there's a economic crisis there's a they are canceled right now let go this is a tremendous cost right if organizations are trying to do this more than once right even in terms of diversity equity and inclusion right adding more diverse people and they are failing there is a cost to this right so one of the the senior design that I presented the journey map they told me only if I had this journey map during a few meetings very important meetings that I had with top managers of my company it would have made a huge difference right to have someone to point and show a boundary object right to discuss those issues would have made I don't know exactly what he would have done or how he would argue or discuss or talk about this but he pointed to the fact that just to have this outline is powerful now I'm assuming that with every research you do it leads to insight but it also leads to at least three new questions where do we go from here Marisol what needs to be explored next from your perspective one so going back to the start right what is the design driven culture and the discussion and especially if you read Herbert Simon's work you understand that business is designed right business as designing right you organizations are always trying to devise ways to change prefer change current situations into preferred ones right so one thing that would be interesting to to moving forward is to make it clear especially for our management students and future professionals how design is core to business not graphic not interface the knowledge of how to devise ways to change current situations into preferred ones right oh we need to increase sales we need to this process is defined as design the one thing would be to share this more clearly the other put the design that is a core again going by Simon's work that is a core feature in an organization and in this broader perspective of gender gap day gap and and diversity right I think broadening the scope of designers concern of fitting to organizations to this hey it's a broader picture would help minorities and women would help designers would help would help everybody right having designers actually feeling the heat with the experiences of these people as their own right like okay I I'm I'm facing exactly the same consequences of the same cause right those two things would be I think in my opinion right these senior designs whenever I presented the journey map they thought about very tactical things that they would do with the journey map itself right like daily negotiations conversations convincing but I think the two major ones would be this right not not saying that business needs to treat designers better but no business is designed business as designing right and having this broader picture like adding designers to this other communities that are facing the same challenges those two things in my opinion yeah let's let's schedule a follow-up in a in a year time see what happened Mauricio um what if you could give a call to action for anybody who's listening and resonates with this message what would you what would you hope that they would do what is something that they could do based on our conversation today um what I would suggest is take this download the journey map assess your situation what which of these experiences you've been through and start sharing this with your colleagues at work your organization as politely as possible share the the this connection between femininity and design with the diversity equity and inclusion people I think this would give a leverage for their work too right if you make the the connection between design is a core capability of businesses and businesses are not profiting as much as they could because we have all this systemic discrimination against women so I think everybody would be right in sharing and understanding that journey map I will make sure to add all the relevant links in the show notes we will be discussing your findings with our circle community seeing how that resonates I have some assumptions about that we'll see how that goes Mauricio if somebody would like to reach out to you regarding this research is there a way to get in touch with you yes I've posted a summary of the discussions that were that happened already on LinkedIn I'll be happy to to discuss this morning I had a person also reach out to me yesterday so I'm trying to keep some windows on my schedule to discuss the the results with people that are interested and I'm sure that you're open to any suggestions but if is there anything in particular that you hope people will reach out with to you is there anything you are looking for specifically I guess it's how can we in a tactical level right like in a again high level ordinary workplace experience how can we devise ways or actions or tactics that would change the current situation to preferred ones right if they have any idea on how to high level right I'm working on my desk and by doing this I can notch the system not like oh let's create a program that will promote no on a very ordinary level right what can we do in in terms of tactical small actions I would love to collect this right oh do this no nudge that like I'm saying share discuss about this journey with your colleague just this no no second intention just share the journey with the journey map with your colleagues like this kind of tactic like gorilla small nudges well yeah I'm easy to interrupt you here it's not it's not even gorilla what I have found in our design community is that we often neglect the nuances and details of our work and prefer I prefer to talk about the bigger picture the strategies well the details the nuances are the things that make a difference on a day-to-day basis and somehow it feels like it's very hard for us to talk about them because like ah you know it was just a meeting or it was just a scribble like it was just a thing um but those are the things that do make the difference and I sort of I'm fully with you that we need to share more of those nuances those details you made me think about a really interesting connection was watching this Netflix series the blue zones right white people live for 100 years so this guy located communities that live for 100 years and he said they they don't exercise they don't eat healthy they don't they embedded all exercise and eating healthy in their that it's the easiest choice for them right so there's this villa village in Sardinia that it's steepy and they have to go around there's no way to have cars they're not exercising right the the thing is the easiest choice right would be um so what we're making this parallel what are the easiest simple things that we can add to our not add embed into our work activities that would match this and make it a caution conscience approach a constant approach to this right i'm adding all this easy steps and activities that will turn the time let's uh let's take this question at least for starters into our circle community discuss it there see what comes up and uh i hope many people will reach out to you as well sharing these things morriso we need to slowly but surely wrap up for anybody who's interested also have a look at it episode 20 from 2017 see who got more gray hair if it's morriso or if it's me in the last six six years i don't know you already had some gray hair six years ago true so uh mark you're never old that mark you have you're the same that's true that's true that's true but uh encourage everybody to have a look at that video as well that episode morriso thanks so much for coming on thanks again for doing this important work uh painful but uh sort of we need to raise awareness that's the only way to start fixing a system that is uh that is broken that's not working and i'm optimistic that we can actually do this because that's one of the threats of design being optimistic so again morriso thanks thanks for coming on the show thank you thank you mark always a immense immense pleasure to talk to you and especially in such a touchy subject so important to many of us thank you very much for inviting well this was a pretty loaded conversation wasn't it i'm really curious to know which question do you have right now after listening to this story leave a comment down below and we'll try to reply to all of them of course if you want to know more about the research or reach out to morriso have a look in the show notes because all the relevant links are over there if you've made it this far into the conversation and enjoyed it please do me a quick favor press the like button on this video not to feed the youtube algorithm but just to let me know whether or not we're on the right track by addressing topics like this my name is mark from time and i want to thank you for spending a small part of your day with me please keep making a positive impact and i look forward to see you very soon in the next video