 ThinkTecAway, civil engagement lives here. Hello, welcome to QoqTalk, I'm Crystal Qoq here. Today we're going to be talking about something really fun and international, intercultural, could be sensitive to some people depending on where you are from or your perspectives on dating. So we are talking about dating and intercultural dating is an interesting phenomenon because there are a lot of expectations, challenges, miscommunications, not just the obvious language but body language and ooh, so many things. So let's open it up. We've got two great guests here. They are both grad students at UH with me, but they come from very different backgrounds with lots of their own personal stories. So let me introduce them right now. Hello. Thank you for coming on. We've got Mark and Layla, but let's break it up a little bit. Mark McCormick, welcome. Give us a little bit about who you are. Yeah, so I'm a graduate student at UH Minoa. I'm doing my PhD in international education. And I lived in China for almost nine years working over there with international students. Cool. So I do have kind of an international background. In dating? Yeah, definitely some experience there as well. I am married. My wife is from Japan and we have two children. So the fun is over? He's married? Yeah. Wow. But yeah, that's who I am. Cool. Thank you for having me today. Great. Look forward to hearing more about your life. Now Layla, why don't you introduce yourself? Yes. I'm a graduate student as well at the University of Hawaii. I'm studying urban and regional planning. But I've been dating online for the last four years. And I've been tracking all of my dates on a spreadsheet for the past four years. I have a lot of data. And I think my Asian American perspective could be interesting because of the multiple cultural lenses that I've been able to experience for myself as well as the people that I've encountered. Do you mind sharing which multicultural perspectives you represent? Yes. So I'm Filipino and Vietnamese American. But I grew up mostly in Los Angeles. Okay. Which is as people would say a melting pot. There are a lot of different kinds of people with different backgrounds. So I think I've been very fortunate to learn about different cultures through dating. Great. So as well as here. We have an interesting plate here. We've got an Asian American gal who grew up in LA. We've got a white guy who lives in Asia for so long, has Japanese wife and kids. And I guess I'm Asian American too. But I lived in Hong Kong for so long. I'm more transnational. And I married to a white guy too. So what do you expect? Right. So let's talk about this international dating and intercultural problem. What are the first things that come to your mind in terms of the issues with cultural differences? Well, yeah. I think I grew up in Boston, which was just maybe not as culturally diverse as a place like Los Angeles or Hong Kong. And I grew up outside of Boston actually. So moving to China was a pretty big change for me. And then I met my wife over there. And because she's not Chinese, we were both foreigners dating in China. So there was another added layer of cultural confusion sometimes as well because we both had been dating in China for a bit. And then she was dating an American guy in China. And I was dating a Japanese person in China. So that was kind of difficult. But we made it work. And communication was kind of the biggest issue for us. Because when we started dating, she didn't speak English. And I didn't speak Japanese. So we were speaking in Mandarin. But we just had to speak very, very directly to each other. And it was all right. And was language an issue? Obviously you said that she didn't speak English. What did you communicate in? And what are some kind of challenges? Yeah, no. We were speaking Mandarin because we were both living in China. That's interesting. So yeah, when we first started dating, that's what we were speaking. And it was actually a lot easier, I feel, than a lot of my other relationships, because we had to be so direct, because we were both speaking in a different language than our native tongue. So when we talk, when I think about intercultural dating, there's definitely cultural aspects that we have between Japan and the United States and stuff like that. I don't want to sound like a gross stereotype. We sound like we're just assuming things, but this is just coming from our personal perspectives. But there is a generalization that a lot of Japanese women do this joke about them saying no means yes. You know, that kind of flutatious opposites where they play these games. And a lot of Asian girls do that. I don't know if you both agree. Oh, I think no means yes. Sometimes in American culture as well. I don't think people are as direct. It depends on your experience. But I do have to agree with you, Mark, that I was in a relationship with someone from another country for seven years. And we had to be direct because we could not... There are a lot of things that you just had to say straight up because otherwise there would be so much misunderstanding. Yeah, there's usually a lot of nuance when you're dating someone and there's kind of flirtatious back and forth and stuff like that. And a lot of that gets lost in translation when you're talking in a different language or different culture. Do you guys have any specific examples of that? I mean, I guess... Okay, so in the United States, if you're dating someone... For example, Netflix and chill, right? Which is not anything that I've ever experienced because I left before Netflix was a thing. That's just bad. I do feel like that carries a pretty strong connotation with the date. Like, you want to come over and watch Netflix. Whereas myself or other foreigners that had gone to China would sometimes kind of use that as an invitation. You want to come over and watch a movie, that type of thing. And I think there are different... You know, one time my friend did that and the girl brought two friends. Okay. Which is... A popcorn. They literally thought it was just to watch a movie. To watch a movie, right. So I think that there's things like that that gets lost in translation sometimes. Well, you don't watch the movie? And the other thing that I think is distinctly American is like star cast humor, right? So sometimes you'll say something like, oh, well, like you never watched a dishes. And it's a way to tell them something, but they may not get that. And so sometimes you just have to say, hey, listen, could you just watch the dishes? Because I've been watching them. And sometimes you don't want to spell it out because then it ruins the mystery of things sometimes. Like, oh, can you touch me there? Or like, you know, do you... I mean, maybe that's not an cultural thing. No, I think you're correct. Yeah, there's definitely... That level of directness in the United States, at least in my experience, might be kind of a turn off. And I think people are very interested in when they're first starting to date. But yeah, when you're trying to cross cultural boundaries, you never know if you want to be too direct. If they're too direct, is there... Am I leaving this too much up in the air when you want? Can we talk about cultural sex now that we're kind of there? Like, how does the intercultural aspect play into this? Like, what are some expectations when you date somebody that's not from your own culture? Are there kind of boundaries where you have to go, oh, well, or is it the same? Yeah, okay, so on the American side, I would say that even if I'm dating someone who is technically American, but also, like me, multi-ethnic in some other way, you kind of have to dig and find out, like, how they were raised and to figure out what is acceptable and not acceptable in their culture. Because it's not just a given that, just because we're both American, that, you know, we're going to just hook up, you know, on the first date or on the third date. There's, like, this third date rule, right? But it may not be that way. Is that the way it is now? I don't know. I don't know. We guys are too old to talk about that. No, I think there is still this joke around the third date being the date that you finally have sex. But people, I think, are either following that or not. It's, you know, I personally think you do it when it feels right and when you feel good about it. I do think, like, when I was living in China, first of all, we were talking about before we started, I think there's more variation in cultures than between cultures, if that makes sense. So, like, I think if you go to China, you're going to get such a vast number of experiences because it's such a diverse country in and of itself. But I do feel like, if it was speaking broadly, that I do feel like, from my experiences in the United States and my friend's experiences or what I kind of know about the culture here, that there is kind of, like, a hook-up culture that might be a little more fast and loosed over in the United States. Whereas in China, I feel like there's much more of a traditional, this is how we're supposed to date and we're supposed to kind of follow this theater of how we're supposed to go through these steps. And what's interesting, too, is that it's not just Western culture. I mean, you can't lump Western culture altogether. I have a friend from the U.K. and she told me when she's like, I don't understand how Americans date. And I was like, what do you mean? And she's like, well, you can be dating a guy for several months even and not even know where you guys are at. So technically, he could be seeing other people. He could be sleeping with other people and it's okay because there was never the, until you have the talk, right? And I looked at her and I was like, well, how do you guys do it in the U.K.? And she said, well, we date one person at a time and you see them and then if it doesn't work out, you break up with them and then you see the next person. And for me as an American, I'm like, that just sounds so inefficient. I think there is something to be said about seeing multiple people at one time, but obviously the flip side is that maybe, especially with our culture of online dating, you don't really invest in any one of them very much. Do you think online dating kind of perpetuates this polyamorous type of culture that seems to be increasingly popular? Yeah. So Mark can't talk about online dating. He didn't have the beautiful privilege that I like to see. Well, I was saying right before, last week I was in San Francisco and I was talking to a different couple that started dating in 2013. When my wife and I started dating. Okay. Which is really when apps started becoming a big thing. I know we had different websites for dating in like 2010, 20. What were some of the ones? What was like your biggest first one? E harmony. Match. Right. Then Tinder. Okay. Cupid. Right. So I never got to use them. So I don't know. Oh yeah. Swiping right. I don't know what that is. Yeah. So my personal take on it is that it's kind of like, Aziz I'm sorry talks about this in his book Modern Love, but essentially the more choices you have, the harder it is to feel content because you're always thinking maybe there's someone better. Right. And so online dating and app dating allowed us to literally like match with so many people. But then you're not really investing in any one of them very deeply because you're thinking about the next best thing. That kind of feeds right into our consumption kind of mentality, especially in the U.S. right? It's like you just need to get and get and then just kind of sort out there and then it's never enough. Yes. It's really kind of a scary place we are in. Yes. And you're seeking for this level of perfection that may not actually exist. So even if you're on a date with someone who's really cool, you're thinking well, maybe there's someone even better out there and then you go home and you're like swiping again, you know, and looking for the next. So when you date online, do you date, are you sourcing, you're looking for somebody who you just want to have a good time with or somebody that you really hope to find like a soulmate for the future, whatever comes in your play, you just take it as it goes. I mean, what's the idea behind it? Oh, that's great. That's a great question because I think all of us go into it with different expectations and different needs and it's very important to clarify what it is that you're looking for and to be okay with it. If you're just looking to have a good time with someone, that's fine. Just be clear about that with the person that you're dating. Is it usually spelled out though? Like it's like a change? I would say if you don't spell it out, there's going to be some hurt feelings. For me personally, I like to spell it out. So what I do is that when I'm out on a date with someone, I tell them, I'm directly like, hey, I'm looking to be in a long-term relationship with someone. Does that scare them away? Not necessarily because I say I'm looking to be in a long-term relationship with someone, not necessarily you, but that's what I'm looking for. Well, gee, that makes me feel good. There's no pressure. It's just like, I want you to know what I'm looking for. And the guys maybe don't want to either. I would actually really like that. Really? Because yeah, it's putting a lot of pressure on me and saying, this is what I'm looking for. Maybe not necessarily you are that person that's going to be that, but just there's that level of understanding and communication. And then it allows the guy to say, well, you know, I just got out of a relationship. I'm not looking for anything serious. And then I'll be like, okay, that's good to know. And both you guys say face at that point. You don't have to choose him or not. She doesn't even know you're not looking to see. Exactly. Well, as opposed to three months down the line, finding out that he was not looking to be in a relationship. You know, this is primarily a very western, kind of centric perspective that we have choices like that, but many cultures don't have the choices. That's true. Let's go the other way. Like how do we feel about being, it's not a reduction, is it? Like if you had to be with one person for the rest of your life and your parents put that on you, can you make it work? I mean, what are your thoughts on that? Well, there were definitely experiences that I had in China where I had been interested in dating or going out with someone. And their parents expected you to marry them. More than once their parents said that they didn't want them to marry a foreigner. Or they didn't want them, because they didn't think I was going to set up my life there and they thought maybe I'd be taking their child away or something like that. Now that could have just been an excuse to say no to me. Or is it just me taking their purity of their blood? Well, yeah. But definitely more than once I didn't pass the parental test. So did you stop dating because of that? Yeah, and I actually was in a relationship where the guy's family did not want us to be together because I was not the same ethnicity as him. Ah. And that was interesting too, because I'm like, we're in America. Like, why does this matter? But it still does. But it does. And you opened up a huge point and what I'm going to do is we're taking a quick break. But let's hold that thought. Don't go away. We're going to talk about how racism kind of comes into play in intercultural and interethnic dating. Really interesting stuff. So don't go away. Aloha. I'm Wendy Lo. And I'm coming to you every other Tuesday at 2 o'clock live from Think Tech Hawaii. And on our show, we talk about taking your health back. And what does that mean? It means mind, body, and soul. Anything you can do that makes your body healthier and happier is what we're going to be talking about. Whether it's spiritual health, mental health, fascia health, beautiful smile health, whatever it means, let's take healthy back. Aloha. Hello. I'm Yukari Kunisue. I'm your host of New Japanese Language Show on Think Tech Hawaii. Called Konnichiwa, Hawaii. Broadcasting live every other Monday at 2 p.m. Please join us where we discuss important and useful information for the Japanese language community in Hawaii. The show will be all in Japanese. Hope you can join us every other Monday at 2 p.m. Aloha. Back to QuackTalk. I'm Crystal here, discussing dating with Mark and Layla here. And we just started before the break. Get into like a heated concept of how racism comes to play with dating. Let's carry on with that. Layla, what kind of relationships or what ethnic backgrounds, if you don't mind sharing in your experience and how that's affected, kind of like maybe the relationship process and why? Okay, so it's interesting because in America there are just so many different backgrounds. So I've dated guys from who are Middle Eastern and Latin, African American. And some cultures are more accepting of different ethnicities, but others are not. And at first I would be upset about it, but on the other hand I realize that there are also traditions and histories that are just really embedded within those cultures and I've learned to just accept and respect that. It becomes complicated though because if you do have true love and you think that will overcome everything, there are some realities where like religious aspects and lots of other traditional aspects that you have to kind of respect. Personally speaking I had been kind of nervous when I went to meet my wife's family for the first time because they're in rural Japan and I don't know if they have a lot of white guys walking around over there. But my wife's cousin had lived in the United States for a while and she married a guy from here. So I think he took the majority of the... He was the first couple. I owe him a 24 pack of something because I think he might have taken the lumps. But yeah, I personally, at least in my relationship right now it's one that I don't really worry about when it comes to racism or stuff like that, but I've definitely seen as a white guy who's friends with people from the United States or other foreigners in China, the fetishization, fetishization. Kind of Orientalism. Yeah, I've definitely seen that before. And I've experienced that before. How many people ask you, oh, how come your English is so good? I hate that. It's like, what, what? And I was just actually talking about it earlier that how sometimes a guy's first question to me is where I am from and if I tell him California it's not good enough. They want to know where I'm really from. And then if I say, oh, you know, my family's from the Philippines, he's like, oh, I've dated a Filipina girl. Oh no. So cringey. I know they're trying to connect with me, but it's just not the right way to connect with me. Okay, can you share to people how? What are some no-no's to intercultural dating? Don't ask a girl where she's from. Well, how do they ask? Okay, so it's okay to say, if you ask where I'm from, like, be okay with whatever answer I give you. Yeah, because it's your identity. Yeah, exactly. And not to generalize, like, oh, I've dated an Asian girl before. Like, okay, that's nice. I didn't need to know that. And again, it's just a cultural sensitivity, right? I may not be defining myself through my ethnicity all the time, so it's not me telling Mark, hey, where are you from? Are you Irish or German? Yeah, how come it doesn't work the other way at all? Yeah, it doesn't. And I understand that we have our preferences in terms of looks or whatever, and that's okay. We like what we like, but the fetishization of our culture is... Yeah. Where is that stem from? You know, you have to think back. Like, you know, this whole yellow fever thing where some white guys go to Asia to seek an Asian wife or just to have a new relationship. There are a lot of websites on that. Have you seen them? What I was telling you guys before, I've been in China. I've at Starbucks different times. I've been seeing a woman they're trying to set up a marriage through one of these websites and the translator is asking the questions. And I don't know why he's there. I mean, I never would buy the guy coffee after word. I just kind of... Yeah, it's weird enough. I think I speak for most people that we don't want to be stereotyped, right? We don't want... But why are we? Well, because there are these generalizations about Asians. Who is really upset because he was like, you're not as submissive or quiet that, you know, and differential as, you know, what I thought Asian women should be like. I guess I was too talkative or something. It sounds like a hymn park. So there are assumptions about Asian women and they may not be true. And where do they come from? So, Mark, when you were in Asia all those years, did you see when you were dating Asian women from Asia, did you see that kind of distinguish between Asian-American outspokenness like us with a, you know, fragile, passive porcelain doll that's not supposed to talk when it's not going down feet? You're welcome for you. I feel everything for you. I do think culturally there are differences between the United States. I mean, if you spend a lot of time in Hong Kong, Hong Kong and mainland China are vastly different, which is different from Japan. So I do think there are cultural differences between China and the women are supposed to act. But again, I think that's kind of undergoing a lot of change in China, especially you're getting a lot of people that are studying in the United States for four or six years and they're going back to China. So it really depends, I guess, where you are. I think if you're in the countryside in rural China as opposed to the city center, I was in the third largest or fourth largest city center in China, so it's very urban. So I think it really depends on where you are. But I definitely think there are cultural differences, right, in how people are supposed to act and how people are brought up to act. And that can go back to education, it can go back to their parents, it can go back to numerous things. I definitely think there are differences. Because I remember dating some guy in Hong Kong years ago and he was very Hong Kong and he was driving me around, maybe we had a dinner once or twice, then the next thing he does, he goes and asks me whether he should buy these pair of shoes. I'm like, I don't care, we'll buy whatever you want. But he thought because I had dinner with him that he thought we were dating and I was like... So expectations, again. Yes. Which is why I think it's really important to better understand someone where they're coming from. Because sometimes it's nice too. It's nice to know that he was serious, right? But creepy too. Tell me so much you're assuming with things like a date. You say the third three date thing for the western kind of assumptions. But dating an Asian guy as opposed to dating an Asian American girl? I haven't. I can't comment on that. People like us going down on you and saying Mark, shut the... You won't get that from us. I can't comment on that. But I can just comment on the vast dating differences between when I was living in China and Asia and the United States. It's still interesting because as an Asian American, you could say I have the benefit of dating more freely than my Asian sisters in Asia in general. But actually I've come to a point where I'm overwhelmed. There's too many choices. Going back to the choice process. It seems to be the Wild West where there are no rules and you essentially have to figure it out on your own and trial and error. In other cultures it's already set out for them. Your parents choose for you. And oftentimes they work. You make it work. I'm like maybe I should get a matchmaker to like match me which is like totally like old school Chinese to have a matchmaker match me with someone. But I have to be my own matchmaker essentially. And I'm very fortunate I'm dating like a great guy right now. It took over 130 first dates in the last four years to get to this point. So you think with all the experience you've had dating different types of people or just dating in general you can narrow it down to how you maneuver the dating process but kind of not, huh? I mean every process is its own experience. Like I told you guys before when my wife and I were on our third date I had dated enough that I knew that this was someone that I was very, very serious in. Very, very interested in. But you're also on the right stage in your life. Correct. But I think she was as well because I met my wife three years before that and we didn't really date at all. Although I was interested in dating her at the time. Not that she wasn't interested in me. It just didn't really work out. The stars didn't line up. Exactly. But it worked out well this time. But just because of all the dating experience that I'd had before that I knew very quickly. This is I'm pretty interested in marrying this person. I knew quite quickly. And I think she was in the same boat. It worked out well for us and our kids obviously. Do you? Yeah, no. I'm really happy for you. Leila, in your book, you say it's the modern girl. What's the title of your book again? It's called Swiping Right. A Modern Girl's Guide to Digital Dating. So I ask you this. What is the definition of a modern girl and Mark, even from being in Asia? The modern girl in Asia is quite what people don't assume now, right? So let's talk about that. I talk about the modern girl as a girl who has a lot going on. She has a career and she's like studying and she doesn't really have time to like go out all the time and date. So essentially I created a process based on my own experience on how to date efficiently through online dating. So it's essentially a nine-step process so that a girl can wait, nine-step. That's a lot of work. That's a lot of work. But essentially so that you're going through online dating profiles with a plan as opposed to like just willy-nilly picking anyone, right? And the reason why is because we have a lot going on and you really if you want to be in a relationship with someone, you have to carve out that time and you have to make that effort. Otherwise you're going to be wasting your time on really your homework before approaching the process. And it's also it's very easy to get disappointed and disenchanted with the discourage because you go out on a date and there's this no chemistry you know, the person who was boring or whatever, right? And then you'll be like there are no good people out there. And so what I try to do is put everything into perspective and show girls that this is a process and it's supposed to be hard. You know, if you're looking for someone you're going to spend the rest of your life with you're going to have to work a little bit more and you have to be clear about what it is that you're looking for. So yeah, that's why it's important. And I think less is more after what we talked about. Too many choices may not be a good thing but simple things are precious. In our limited time left, do you both have some suggestions to people when we mentioned no-no's before? Things that can help you along the dating process based on your birth experiences culturally? Yeah, I would just say communication is really key. And then being patient with someone that might be coming from a different cultural background that you are. So I when my wife and I first started dating Japan and the United States are quite different culturally. It required patients and it required a lot of communication. But if you're dedicated to that, you can make it work and it's fantastic and it's phenomenal. It definitely requires patience and communication I think that's just dating in general. But definitely when you have different cultural aspects as well. So in America even though there aren't any rules I do think that there are best practices and one of them is no ghosting on people. And if you've never heard of ghosting it's essentially like you just kind of disappear and like not respond to someone after a few dates. And the reason why you shouldn't do that is because it can be disrespectful to that person and they don't get the closure that they need so that they can move on. And if you've ever been ghosted on you know what I'm talking about. Well I think you have to check out Lila's book and go online just be careful what you're doing. Be sensitive to cultural aspects from different people because again a lack of communication, a lack of ignorance is a huge no-no in intercultural dating. So let's learn about each other and respect each other. Thank you both of you for your wonderful comments and input and good luck with everybody's dating life. Go out there and have fun and enjoy life and respect each other. Bye. Thank you.