 So we, this session is on the live stream on HowlRound. So functionally what that means for everyone here is just make sure you have a mic when you're talking. There are a lot of mics around so it shouldn't be hard but I know that might be, feel a little cumbersome but it's important so that people can hear the conversation. So thanks for coming to this breakout session and I thought we could start, if you heard me talk I talked about the idea of community narrative and how we measure the stories that get told about a place or the stories that we tell ourselves about our own places and it would be super interesting to me if we just started by sharing if people have ideas or parts of their project that they feel like are about narrative or if you, certainly if you have any questions I'm happy to answer those but I'm kind of anxious also to hear about all of your work. So is there anybody who wants to get started with some thoughts? That's my friend, no, I don't know why that's like that. Your imaginary friend. You specifically asked about. Yes. Thank you. Ours is a narrative of pushing relentlessly on the city to do what was right for the community. We took a 30,000 square foot parking lot that the Seattle Police Department used surrounded by a razor wire fence right next to massive transit investments and it had a police, the police department there and of course all the city and union issues around that and over 13 years and through two neighborhood plans the neighborhood specifically called out activating that space and it took us four city mayors to get there but we finally got them to allow us to, we're developers to redevelop this space as affordable housing and art space but it was only by reframing the project as a win for the arts. The first decade it was about affordable housing and when we brought in the arts as not a needy issue not as something that was holding out his hand and asking for money but as a way to activate space suddenly the elected officials got it so it was that plus marching down to city hall with the Chamber of Commerce, the community council the head of a couple of arts organizations and all showing up with a unified voice and saying this is a community priority for us so framing it both as a win for the whole community and not about our desire to develop more property was finally the narrative that got the city's attention. I think that's super interesting to think about how sometimes narrative is about finding the big win for the community or finding the big sort of inflection point. For us it was much more about how do you create lots of little opportunities that together make up a narrative but I think those are both sort of common those are two different but both common sort of approaches or community challenges. How do you create the sort of big point of pride and then how do you create ongoing repetition of a narrative or of an opportunity? Leslie? I sort of wanna bring it back to what you were saying up there because I think we all know how to tell our stories whereas what I thought was so compelling about what you said in particular but also your colleagues was that you had visual numeric narratives, results oriented narratives and in your case in particular you took the kind of data that I used to work and marketing is very familiar to people who do marketing campaigns but not something like media impressions is not something that's usually associated with arts projects so you sort of found another source of data to validate your results and create your narrative of what is success and I think that I mean I think that was where Liz was kind of pushing all of us which is how do you create a narrative of results? And what data do you draw on in a world where there isn't sort of blueprint for data? I mean if we were all doing ad campaigns it'd be really easy. When I used to do ad campaigns for a high tech company super easy to measure and compare to previous ad campaigns really hard in our world to come up with a commonality that I'll put Susan on spot, Susan on the funder. You know sort of how unless Susan gives us a template and we squirrel into a template from a funder then how do we all measure results? So I'm sort of interested in that results for you to the narrative and how people. Do people have other examples of places where you've found like from another sector or sort of a set of data that you didn't know existed before? My name is Bob and I'm executive director of Modesto Art Museum. Our program is building a better Modesto in response to the livability issues in Modesto. We created in some way a new narrative for the city but we did it based on data that we discovered that people had overlooked for many generations and that is that Modesto had a real design heritage especially in architecture from the 1930s to the 1970s and this was a narrative that had been forgotten even though it was published in many books over the decades it just was forgotten. So we dug that up and created a new narrative of Modesto as a design city, a city interested in design, a city that's known for its architecture. We built an architecture festival around that. The first year about 200 people came last year we had 5,000 real life people and 20,000 people online. It was nine days and 100 events. We've got architecture tours that you can download so there's a whole new narrative and one of the ways that I have measured our success is that in the media now in the last architecture festival via magazine referred to Modesto as a design hotbed and I wasn't there but somebody told me that when they were on Amtrak going through Modesto when they got to Modesto the conductor said next stop is Modesto a city known for its mid-century modern architecture. I consider those signs of success because we're changing not just the narrative within the city but in the surrounding area and I took that as being very important but I know we're another sign of success is that we put online three architecture tours that you can download either to your device or you can print them out they're just PDFs and we keep a track of how many people download them and you know we were getting respectable numbers but during September of last year during the architecture festival more than 7,000 were downloaded and that was one of our success indicators. The other thing that I think of in terms of mining where we find this kind of information or where I feel like there's a huge opportunity for us as a field to be able to articulate our value or demonstrate value is you can also kind of reverse engineer it and look at places where people are paying to create narratives so for us during a big construction project like this often a city will pay for a bunch of paid advertisements of this business or that thing is happening so I didn't talk about this in my presentation but we were actually able to take these numbers and put them up against how much the city was spending on ad space for many of the same local businesses and it's not that one is better than the other but we had something to anchor it to something to compare the numbers to and so I wonder too if there are other places like that where we can look at the things that whether it's city or other partners are already putting resources into and see if we can measure against those things as an opportunity for sustaining the relationship or continuing the work. And this isn't an example of that but you're an example maybe of the earlier thing which is our work is we don't have enough structure to have anybody really in charge of marketing and I'm a member of an art group in Anchorage that calls itself the Light Brigade and all our work is time based and site specific and one time only we've kind of discovered that our best marketing strategy has been to keep our plans really quiet and that has actually worked really well. It wasn't the way we set out to approach it but it's worked and one of our goals is to just get people talking about creative place making and to get people in our community discussing what it means to live in a city that's becoming really increasingly vibrant and active around art groups going out and doing staging urban art interventions in the community rather it's sort of spontaneously we want people to discuss that and we're not sure where the discussion is gonna go or how to guide it but we wanna know if they are and so the easiest way to do that is just to track hashtags. Every time we do something, every time we have an event, every time we make stage an intervention or there is one that some other art group is doing locally, you just start following it and the next thing you know, you start to accumulate these clusters of buzz that are very, very, how shall I say, quantifiable and you just have to tie them back because they always go like this. They always have a, they build, they plateau and then they fall off and it always corresponds to the week before, the day of and the week after and it just makes a really beautiful flow chart. I think that's super smart and I think that or accounting media impressions, there are ways of making, those are sort of proxies or ways of making a community conversation more visible so the proxy there is that you would assume if people are talking about it on Twitter with a hashtag that there is also an in-person conversation happening that probably follows that same arc but those tools make it easier to show it. We're trying to track in New London, Connecticut, it's a seaport town with ferries, transit, everybody, we want them to drive to and not keep driving through so we're trying to do a public art project that counts like how long did you stay and did you see these shops and all of that. It's just a lot of places I work have the problem of people just driving through. So if anybody has any good tools for measuring that. You mean measuring whether people stop or measuring which piece of that do you feel like is important to measure? Staying instead of driving through, like more people staying lingering downtown. So how do you measure whether you're capturing people? I guess the merchants can but there aren't that many merchants we're in a process of doing a storefront program. Do you have parking meters? They are just not functioning at this time. Things are bad. But I think those kinds of, like again there are proxy measurements that you could track over time about have somebody stand outside and count how long the car is parked or count the traffic at the highway wayside gas station versus the in town gas station or some kind of way of being able to see something about. There has to be a public art project in this so I haven't figured it out. If anybody has any ideas let me know. I like the idea of gas station residencies I think. Other ideas, questions for each other? I'm certainly not the expert here. One thing to add, I'm from the Lanes River Art Center in Lanes River, Minnesota and our town is 750 people and so all of these big numbers and metrics and data we don't have the resources right now to do that but more importantly it doesn't really matter to a lot of our stakeholders because they don't want to see numbers, they want to see more kids in the school district, they want to see more businesses in the vacant storefronts downtown and so I'm just thinking like personally I know that there are people who move to Lanes River because they like the culture there, they like that we're doing stuff, they like that there's a world class art center and theater there right in this rural place and they have told me there's this couple, they have three kids, they moved to town and they have said we wanted to come here because of what you guys are doing and but it's really hard to sell that like one example as a reason to believe in the project so I'm wondering if anyone has any good ideas for platforms to showcase examples like that that really do make an impact on people and I've brought this up like in talking with some of our legislatures and things and they're really interested in that but really showing the measurement that those types of things can make I don't know if there's any similar situations or anything that you could add or help me try to figure out how best to describe our situation in things like our interim report or in future grant proposals to more economic based projects. Do people have ideas? Anybody have ideas for Courtney? I don't know how you would put it in a interim report necessarily but I think the resources of like I love the story of those people and being able to capture that on your iPhone and make a little movie out of it like testimonial movie that could be and then you could transcribe that I suppose in a report. And where do you think we should share that information? Maybe that's a bigger question who needs to know about that and how do we make that more visible? I guess that would depend on who the audience is I mean in terms of what you're trying to use that tool for is it to get more people involved? Yeah I guess maybe just to bring more legitimacy to the project or to the notion of getting people to move there I guess that's maybe cause that's the ultimate goal we want our town to survive and so we need more people to move there because that family brought three kids to the school district which is incredible in a town like I'm from there and I graduated in class of 25. That was my graduating class so it's just a very interesting way to kind of look at how our town is surviving. I think visuals are really helpful. We need to get a new website and understanding what the program or what do I get by moving to this city? How is my life going to be enriched and having people talk about it showing what you're doing? That's a great way to do it I think. I think you can also looking at Brian's work in Cleveland to be able to do a community perception survey in some ways that's an easier task in a smaller community I mean you could get a pretty significant portion of the population probably to fill out that survey and the other asset you have in terms of sort of proximity and a more statewide community in Minnesota is you could also survey people outside of Lanesboro who live in the Twin Cities or Duluth or Mankato about their perception cause I feel like your work has reputation that stretches way beyond Lanesboro so to be able to share that outwardly but also share it with community members I feel like that's particularly meaningful to be able to say people all over the state know Lanesboro because of this work they know that this is a good place to live an interesting place, a place with these assets. Sometimes we've done a lot of work where we're both trying to tell the story outwardly to sort of from a more marketing perspective but also to reflect that story back for the people who are creating it I think is really important. The other project that came out of Brian's work in Cleveland is that they did this really great postcard project that Brian showed where they were their goal was the same to try and get people to move there and they sent postcards to artists in New York and artists places all over the country that essentially were ads for Cleveland and for their neighborhood that were about how affordable it was what a great place it was and it really worked they've sold those houses partly because of their sort of outward reaching philosophy. Hi, I'm Jessica and I had an art place grant for the Building Imagination Center and one of the things that we did is we brought in video artists to make movies with the community about the community so it was a way of showing people outside of the community what we have to offer but it was also a way to show the community itself what it's already doing and then putting those things on Facebook and on Vimeo and updating the Wikipedia site about our city, all those things I think work together. I'm Kimberly Van Dyke from Wilson, North Carolina with the Vala Simpson World League project and kind of in the beginning Michael talked about how in his community the value of his project it sort of didn't bring value to the community until they talked about the arts component while in our project it was sort of the opposite interestingly enough. So when our project started there were a lot of people in the community that didn't find value in the project because it was art or it was about art and so that we had to find we knew that we wanted to use the project from the beginning, our intent was to use the project not only as having value in and of itself as the project but also we wanted to use it as a catalyst project to revitalize the geographic area around it. And so we had to sort of craft the narrative around job creation, business starts, private investment and that type of thing and so our value came really when we were able to start to quantify all of those types of things which I'm a big fan of collecting data that already exists. So you can very easily pull number of building permits and value of building permits in a certain geographic area. You can very easily pull things like business licenses, how many business licenses were pulled and then collecting other data around that that is not quite as easy. So asking your business owners to participate and give you numbers of sales from one quarter over the next from one year over the next and that type of thing that's really where we started to get, that's when people started to wake up and say, oh, this project actually does have value because it has this reverberating effect. And the other thing that I'm sort of, that I know is happening but I haven't quantified it the same way that, you know, for example, Laura, you've started to quantify some of that and I guess it's Brian has started to quantify some of that is I know that it has really started to change the community's perception of itself. So, well, maybe in the beginning they didn't see the value around the art as the project sort of gained momentum and gained national attention and you have like an article in the New York Times or you get the art place grant and they say, oh my gosh, these big funders are giving our community money for this project. It maybe it does have value in and of itself and maybe it's not just the economic ripple effect that has the value. And so then they start saying, oh my heavens, we have this asset and we used to make fun of it but now we're really proud of it. And it started to sort of change their own perception of their community but I haven't tried to quantify that. And so I think based on this conversation that's the next thing I need to start to measure because that's really just as important or if not more important. And so I'm thank you for sharing that. I was just gonna add to what Kimberly said about using data but also using data that's already out there. So just we have many examples of we run a boat. So we know exactly how many people come, right? So we're like a museum in that and not like a park. And so everyone loves our story that we went from 8,000 people in a season to 8,000 people a day. But then we have the high line, right? So it was like, how do you compare to the high line, two million people? So we then went and studied how many hours people spend on Governor's Island. And so when I have a conversation with someone, I say, well, we have 400,000 people but they come for about three hours. And you know, when you go to the high line, the high line's fantastic, I always say that. But you go for 20 minutes. So all of a sudden you're changing the story because you've gotten a different piece of data and you're using somebody else's data, right? The two million. So instead of the conversation being, well, that's like really nice, Leslie. You've gotten up to big whopping 400,000. It's, and I don't want to get into that, well, we're only open this much. But then all of a sudden the conversation changes and then when I say, well, we're a place that people love, right? How do you quantify that? Well, they're not going to a place they hate for spending three hours there. But seriously, I know that they love it, right? Because I hear them say that. But if I just said that without them saying, but I know they spend three hours, then it makes sense as opposed to my, because I think that all of us are good at telling how wonderful our projects are, right? We're passion driven. But then I really think we have to like push harder on like, Courtney, what's your story? Like, what are the numbers, right? There are numbers involved in your budget. You know what I mean? How do you show that? And then how do you use other data? Like, how many people have gone to a performance in your community versus a theater in a bigger city? Versus, you know what I mean? Like, how do you construct a story with numbers in that story? And I think that then that just gives us all a lot more credibility. And then of course, as you're doing that, you also want to be able to judge the impact of your, you know what I mean? So it's telling your story, but then how did I get from point A to point B? So we try really hard. And again, we haven't figured out how to quantify love, but we're coming up with proxies. Well, I think that's a really good strategy of like a place to start when you think about evaluation. If you think, if you start with the place, like these are the things that I say about this project all the time. Or these are the things I feel when I experience this project on the street. How do I measure those things? How do I find a proxy for love or for community possibility? Which are, you know, that's the thing that I talk about all the time, a sense of possibility and agency. Well, I'm sure there are smarter people than I who do know how to measure that, but I don't. So how do you pull those apart and try and find the measurable pieces of the things you already say or you already want to demonstrate rather than someone else's measurement that may or may not be relevant to you? Yeah, I just want to jump off of what you said there. I work in the theater, and the theater is again one of those, okay, you can, you know, you can see how many people showed up to the theater. You can survey them after and ask them what they thought or how they were engaged or what motivated them to buy a ticket or how they were engaged with the piece. But we're actually trying to think about now, I'm from Perseverance Theater in Alaska, and what we're trying to figure out is how, you know, basically, where does the story begin of the engagement with a piece and where does the engagement end? Like, it doesn't begin when they show up at the theater. It actually starts before that, you know, in terms of being interested in that particular story. And we do a lot of, it was funny when you were talking about narrative. We do a lot of stories about Alaska or about the people of Alaska or stories that have impact in Alaska. So those are really interesting ones to measure in terms of their impact, but I'm really curious about, and I don't know the answer to this, but it's just something I'm starting to investigate is how once they leave the theater and they have the conversation, the car on the way home, but what's the next thing? Does it impact, you know, I just directed this play by a playwright from Anchorage and, you know, she was in the quilting store one of the next days and she heard these two women talking about the performance and, you know, she felt like she had to hide behind the thing of the shelf because she didn't realize she was the playwright and they actually don't know what she looks like probably. But she was hearing that conversation and so those conversations are really difficult to measure, like in terms of what actual impact does the story or the engagement that they had with the piece, you know, besides them coming back and seeing another play, but that's not really what I mean in terms of taking the story that they listened to or experienced and how does that go forth in engaging in their lives? So it's just an interesting question. It's almost the same as love, you know, but yeah, it's just something pondering and yeah, I'm not smart enough to figure it out. So if anybody has any thoughts on what they've done, posts, you know, activity to see what the long range impact has been, that would be cool. I wanna echo in on that because I often try to track changes in attitudes and behavior and I think those are really distal outcomes. I've been going through this kind of soul searching with what does that mean? Can I really deliver on the fact that any intervention, any engagement that we are doing will lead to a change in attitude or behavior? Will we be in existence long enough to see that or see that come to fruition? So like you, I'm measuring those proximal outcomes, those things that I can measure right away that, you know, seeing people come back, repeat engagement, a follow-up phone call and an email and then trying to latch those on to some other larger community goals that some of my stakeholders are implementing. So with us having so many partnerships with city and county government and things around quality of life services, we're like our main partner is a neighborhood works community. So how can we tie into those and say that, well, maybe we were not the direct effect of that but we partner with this organization in order to get there. Because I think those distal outcomes can be very frustrating and it could be really, it can slow you down to a point where you almost don't feel like you're having any success because in our community, it's huge about if you're educating students that you're contributing to 90% graduation rate at the lowest achieving high school. And it's like, how am I gonna be able to tell you that I actually did that working with a kindergartner? I mean, it's that far away. But thinking a little bit more realistically about what are those proximal outcomes, what are those things that we know increase attendance rate, decrease attitudes of engagement coming into school when we know that you're there on a, they know you're gonna be there every Friday so that kids shows up a little bit more on Fridays. These are the things that we have started to change the way that we're looking for these outcomes and then beginning to report out. And I don't know, I mean, I wanna know what's happening 10 years down the road but I just don't know how I'm gonna get that data or where it's going to live. And I think that's something really important but we can't lose hope or faith that we won't get there. So I just wanna say that. I think that's another challenge of, probably all of our work, certainly for us, is that we're working within systems and ecosystems of a lot of people and a lot of challenges and it's really hard to draw those straight lines. Like Liz said, the sort of causality piece of like, I did this and then this happened, the end. And especially when you're working on trying to sort of change whole systems that those kind of direct, the logic model sort of way of working doesn't always follow. I've recently become really interested in where there is existing sort of bodies of knowledge and research that we might be able to hook onto either as sort of a preamble or the end piece. So just as an example, there's a local foundation in Minnesota called the Wilder Foundation and they've done this great body of research about how social connectedness and social bridging leads to physical health outcomes for neighborhoods. And so I've been talking with them and thinking about how do we make a prequel to that that demonstrates how arts and culture leads to social connectedness. And then they've already done all of the work, the long-term work about how that leads to lower rates of obesity and diabetes in a neighborhood. How do I connect, how do I just make that train link thing that hooks on to people who've already done that kind of long-term system-based research? And I imagine there are other, I'm sure there are other fields, other sectors that have those kinds of long-term, real academic scientific research. What other challenges do you guys have in your work in terms of measurement in general or the idea of narrative? Where are their pressure points? I don't know if this is particularly responsive. I'm Nancy Ebrahim from Esperanto Community Housing. The Mercado La Paloma is the site that we had for our Art Place grant. And the Mercado is a very unusual project by any understanding. But one of the most interesting and challenging interfaces has been since we started this project more than 13 years ago, is the role that we play as the developer with individual small businesses, which are for-profit entrepreneurial enterprises. And one of the things that we did from the very, very beginning of our work was to create a year-long schedule of cultural events that we stimulated just to start bringing more foot traffic into the space. And some of those choices were fairly arbitrary. Dia de los Muertos, the Day of the Dead, has always been a high, holy day for us. But we also have, we're the only place that we know of north of Mexico, north of Oaxaca, actually, that celebrates the Noche de Ravanos, the Night of the Radishes, which is a uniquely Oaxacan celebration. And we've done different other small celebrations throughout the year. The Art Place Grant was specifically designed for us to elevate the concept of a cultural continuum, that the culture of South L.A. is no longer simply a narrative of black versus brown, as if it ever really was simply that. But it's a very, very diverse community, diversely African-American, Afro-Caribbean, diversely Latino, and diverse beyond those two particular groups. And one of the things that happened that we were extremely excited about, that is part of our post-art place and continuing measure, is the fact that those six high, holy days of the Mercado now that everybody will rally around have been owned by the vendors. So we were able to stimulate these in the creation of the Art Place Grant. We had the first ever African-American film festival in the month of January, January, February. We had a newly partnered curated show with the California African-American Museum. We had Garifuna performers, always live dance, fixed art exhibits, something that was relative to the month of, or every two months we would change this show with at least one grand performance. One of the things that happened is that our Thai business, which is a restaurant that occupies a restaurant and does a brisk business, had been on the verge of leaving the Mercado and returning to Thailand because of family issues. And because we celebrated the Thai New Year as one of our festivals, it gave them a place of ownership there that they had never really realized before. And somehow the commitment that this was a place that could in South LA, where the Thai New Year would be affirmed and celebrated and claimed and developed was something that was profoundly meaningful for that particular group. Each of the different entities has claimed a particular day that the whole Mercado will celebrate around. So the month of the Yucatan, the month of Minchua Khan, day of the dead will continue to be celebrated. The Noche Daravanos will continue to be celebrated. But now as a regular year, the Thai New Year festival will be celebrated. The newest member of our tribe is Asla Ethiopian Vegan. The first Ethiopian restaurant in South LA and brilliant, brilliant food and a very charismatic and wonderful family. And they found the Mercado through our Art Place Grant and fell in love with some of the performances that they experienced there and wanted to make it their home for their business as well. So these are more narrative measures of the success, but a lot of it has to do with how deeply invested. These business folks are having invested everything in a business, but also getting re-energized around cultural manifestations that they're playing a bigger role in. So that's a big part of it. I think in terms of the external narrative, I still rail in the press when I see us referred to as a food court because we're a very intentional community. It's not meant with malice and we do observe the hits of the press even if they're not our narrative. But it's those more meaningful claims of ownership and ownership stakes in the Mercado that make us feel as if we've really created something with many, many deep roots. So I love that and for me it provokes this question about community ownership and how we measure that, how you measure people's investment in a place and their ownership or agency in a place. Does anybody have a story for that? Yeah. So my name is Boston from Perseverance Theater in Juneau, a town of 32,000 people. You can only get there by plane or boat. And over the years, there's a story that the taxi driver was talking to some folks who had come in on the airplane and was taking them somewhere and he kept talking about our theater. Our theater just announced they're gonna be doing Hamlet next year, our theater. So the community buy-in to the ownership of what the theater does and what the theater is for the community is very large and when you get people referring to it as our theater and not something that's far away, then that's it. And you can't really measure that you hear these stories and so you know those stories and those are just great, great, great stories to know that you're having the impact that you wanna have on the community and that they are so entrenched in what you do and then you hear them vocally when they do something that you don't like. When you do something they don't like but because they have that ownership, it's great and that's really wonderful. So I love that idea too, like is there a way to measure community pushback or resistance as a measure of ownership? Like how do you take that and you're able to demonstrate some kind of ownership? Do people have other examples of that? Other? Our architecture festivals become very large and we encourage an enormous amount of community participation from just about anyone and in the beginning I was always going out and inviting and encouraging groups to participate but it took a real turn two years ago when I got a phone call from the almost proverbial group of little old ladies who make quilts and they asked if they could be part of the architecture festival. They wanted to make architecture quilts. I would have, on my own I would have never thought to invite this group to be part of the architecture festival. I wouldn't have known that they would have had an interest but because the architecture festivals become part of the community and they wanted to be part of it so they came and they produced the most amazing quilts that I have, I just couldn't believe it. It just blew me out of the water and people came from all over to see those quilts. Then we have, there are poets in town and the same year I got a phone call from a woman who said she wanted to meet with me and she was very secretive and we finally met and she said, well the poetry community would like to be part of the architecture festival and I said, well how do you envision this happening? Well, we're gonna take pictures of a half dozen buildings in town. We're gonna put them on a website and we're gonna invite poets from all over the world to write poems in response to these buildings and then we're gonna pick, we'll have a committee, we'll pick what we think of the, however you pick a best poem. I stayed out of that and then we're gonna have a poetry walk during the festival and we'll walk from one building to the next and if the poet's local, the poet will read his or her poem about that building and if it's a poet from far away, somebody else will read it and then they videotape the whole thing and I would have never imagined doing that. That came completely from the community and from these little niche groups and really those are indicators in my mind of success, whatever success might mean. You can make that into a real sort of quantifiable metric too. You can count up the number of disparate groups that are involved now that weren't involved before. You can map the sort of different sectors of the community that are engaged in the festival. I think that I'm hearing, I hear all of you talk about your projects and everyone is so passionate and it's so moving to hear everybody tell the actual narrative stories of the people in their community and their response and so I am also, I think to Leslie's earlier point, interested in how do you take that and just convert it into a number that also means something to people who are maybe more numbers driven or who need this sort of tangible thing to hang their hat on along with the really compelling story and I think it is sometimes a matter of just making a visual representation or a little graph of how many groups were involved before and how many groups are involved now and that's a really good proxy for ownership and engagement. And then we did that because there were 36 quilt artists. We do count the number of people who are involved and the number of artists who are involved. So suddenly we had 36 quilt artists and I think it was 70 or 80 poets who were involved. We should count the hours of inspiration. That's right, I wouldn't have thought of that, sure. Thank you. We have a project, I'm Danny and with Yellow Arts in Yellow County, Northern California. We have a project that is art embedded in agriculture and we do a couple of things. We do the stories which we, thanks to an art place grant, we also did video but we took it to YouTube. We didn't have to do anything special but we also then conducted screenings. We had movie nights, movies and martinis by the way. In our local theater and screened our movie and brought up the farmers that we interviewed and the artists that we interviewed and made them stars and walked them down the red carpet and they were like, they were laughing at first and they kind of got into it. It was kind of weird. And then at the end of that movie we hit the highlights of the number of artists we touch, the number of farms we touch, the number of people that came to the festival. And so we just put those numbers randomly up on the screen and we asked people to connect them. And the first time we did it everyone, we're not really sure, but we do it every year in some fashion, take those numbers and ask people to connect them and help us understand, see if they know where these numbers are going. And those are the same numbers by the way that go in front of my county supervisor. So it's a visual, it's like a wordle with numbers, right? And it's just making sure that my supervisors know and the people who are, and my funders know that these are the numbers that are impacting and how they're increasing. So it's kind of a strange pie chart. But by doing them in combination with the stories, with the videos and this year we had a small grant that we got from the Rotary, the local Rotary and we bought, they're not flip cameras, but they're the newest version of flip cameras and iPads and we're now sending the kids out to do the stories. So now we're doing this cross-generational youth interview of a farmer and an artist and then the kids are putting these stories together in their classroom. So it's digital art in the classroom, but it's also helping them learn more about their place and why this program is so important. So those are the ways we're trying to do it. We're trying to tweak the stories with the numbers on top of it. I think we are, I just wanna thank you all for sharing your stories and your narratives about your project. It's just for moving to be able to hear all of you talk about your work and go thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.