 We just had a very interesting conversation with one Stephanie Ayeta. I really hope you caught it. But if you did not, I'm quite sure you can catch the link on YouTube that is at WhiteFive4Channel. Also, it just happens to be the handle for all our other social media platforms that is on Facebook, on X, formerly Twitter. I'm still engaging with that. And then there's Instagram and threads and all those wonderful ones, TikTok and the like. Now, usually this is a conversation solely about politics. But we have two very, very amazing, amazing guests today. And we're just going to take a little different turn. Of course, we're going to route it from home. Okay. Yes. So don't panic. We're going to talk about home. But of course, we're going to broaden it out. I mean, even with Stephanie, we were talking about opportunities out there. So let's figure out what's going on. But without further ado, I'll let one Niko Guddu and Professor Natalie to introduce themselves. Please welcome to the show. Welcome, welcome, welcome. Maybe I'll start with you. Yes. Hello. My name is Natalie Frederick Pierre. I'm a professor of history at Howard University in the United States. And I immigrated to the U.S. from Haiti when I was a toddler. Okay. And you are, sir. So I was born here. My name is Niko Guddu. I'm based in New York City. I'm the founder and the executive director of Safari Young International, an organization that was birthed and incubated at Columbia University in New York City. And our main mission is to improve interactions between the global black population to build power amongst themselves. Yes. Okay. Before we get to the topic of the day, there is a very, very new development that has come about globally that is the current war in Israel versus now the Hamas of the kind of Palestinian situation. But the Hamas is an extremist group. So how do you think that's going to affect us globally? Because we thought it was just all fun and games and Ukraine and Russia went at it. But it had serious repercussions. We few old prices hiked up for some reason. We didn't have a couple of serials coming in. So again, cost of food went all the way up. And that's just the Kenyan situation. But what do you think that means right now for the rest of the world when Israel and essentially Palestine, although it is in particular Hamas who kind of govern the Gaza region? How do you think that translates to the world and its economy right now? I think that means the U.S. is going to be deploying its resources so that soldiers worldwide are going to be involved in this conflict. But I also think that it's going to be a useful opportunity for the global audience to see how freedom fighters in Ukraine are framed versus freedom fighters in Palestine are framed. Oh, okay. What do you think, Nick? Yeah, I know you called the Hamas extremist group. Yeah. This is a label that is put on groups of people. And these are terms that are used by people who control the narrative on who is an extremist or who is a freedom fighter. You feel the phrase is sensational? Not really sensational, but I don't think it's 100% accurate because if we go back to the history, I'm not an expert on the history of Middle East, but if we go back to history, these are people who originally lived there. And Israel is a very new country, less than 100 years old. So if we look at it through that perspective, so labeling them as extremist groups may be a little bit too much. All right. So we'll just watch and see basically. We'll just wait and watch and see. All right. Now, a couple of interesting things have been happening at home. So our president, his Excellency, Dr. William Ruto, had a couple of, he reshuffled his cabinet administrative secretary. So instead of their allegations out there, instead of, you know, just find them head on or sending them home, he just decided to shift their dockets. And a couple of those things that are quite interesting. I'll start maybe with the high commissioners in different countries. So I was going through the list and I thought it would just be a situation where one is in Beijing, he's now taking to Tokyo or what is, but it's not just politicians. You have technocrats and we have even, this kind of caught my eyes. His name is Peter Munyui. He was a former family bank CEO, just one of our local banks. He was a former CEO. And now he's now the high commissioner in New Delhi. And his name alone is just heavy with, again, allegations of corruption. But he has been acquitted since the beginning of the year. Do you think we're making the right moves for people to be going to places where they're supposed to be representing us as Kenyans in different countries out there? So ambassadorial appointments are political appointments. And the government of the day, they look at different reasons why they post somebody in a different, in a particular location, the overall country. And most of them, and some of these are people who either supported the campaign or the political allies also awarding those allies. And very rarely do we consider people's abilities to occupy those offices and competently represent the country in those offices where they occupy abroad. So we have very few career ambassadors in these foreign offices. And we've seen what has happened even in different embassies where we've got allegations of corruption, exporting corruption to those offices. And they're not adequately representing the country's interests. Yes. Okay. How do you feel about this? I wouldn't be able to comment on the intricacies of Kenyan government because I'm not aware of the actors. Do you feel that the embassy in the United States for Haiti helps you in any way, form or manner? Do you think it's present? I think they do what they can with the limited resources they have. But when we're speaking about the Haitian embassy in the U.S., there's also a lot of political turmoil in Haiti. So some of that turmoil is reflected in how the embassy engages with Haitian citizens who live abroad. Speaking of Haitian citizens, apparently what is coming or what is on our newspapers and in our mainstream media is that there are gangs up in Haiti. And again, the government made the decision. And the funny thing is part of the restructuring of the cabinet secretaries is the one responsible, which is Alfred Moutour. He is responsible and he was quite key on the deployment of a thousand police officers to Haiti to solve this particular problem. Now, his docket has been taken away and he's been placed somewhere in the tourism sector. So I don't know if he made a mistake somewhere or he know we're playing it cool. But how do you feel about Kenyans or just generally any other type of military being sent to Haiti right now? Do you think it's going to be the answer? So I want to address two things in what you said. I actually did see that minister on a BBC Africa interview and I think part of the reason he might have been reshuffled is he put a timeline for the deployment of Kenyan troops into Haiti. And as a historian of Haiti and the African diaspora, January is the month where Haitians celebrate their independence. So he said that troops would be deployed into Haiti by January. So that is something that triggers panic in the Haitian populace because the first of January, the upcoming one, will be our 220th year of sovereignty. So to hear of African world leader saying that we're going to fundamentally invade your country on the anniversary of your birth, that may have been one of the reasons he was reshuffled because it did not sit well with not only Haitians, but with black people across the African diaspora who were via Haiti because of the role that we played in inaugurating Haitian, excuse me, in inaugurating human rights and the Haitian revolution. So to the second part of your question, I do not think the deployment of Kenyan police officers in Haiti is a good idea, particularly because the U.S. has been responsible for occupations in Haiti since 1915. But because of the optics, they can no longer do it on their own or with their allies from the core countries. So the core countries are a conglomerate of former colonial powers who have vested interests in Haiti. They're primarily nations that are in Europe or of European American descent. So the U.S. recognizes that they can no longer deploy troops from these countries. So they are using Kenyan police officers as proxy. And I really want everyone who is hearing me to understand you do not want to do this. What do you think, Nick? Yeah, so what most Kenyans do not know is that Haitians are very proud people. They are the first black-led country to actually pick out colonizers and free other islands, other countries. So they've got that history of progress amongst them. And because they did that almost 200 years ago. 220. 220 years ago. This is something, despite them going through all those challenges, this is a pride among them. They said, this is our land, this is our island. We are able to take care of ourselves, solve our own problems. But because we're able to do this 220 years ago, the colonizers have never been happy with them. They've really punished them for those 220 years, especially the French and the U.S. And this is not the first time their territory is being invaded by foreign forces. This is something they've seen before. And international community has come forward before with a lot of promises, peace, development. We are coming to help you. But children have been born generations and generations have seen these promises not kept at all. Remember those earthquake? We are talking about gangs now. Why can't we look at the history of gangs? Why? Right? And most of these gang members they're talking about were trained by the West. Wow. They were trained by the West. So when we look at it whole-sumly, then it's a really bad idea to send our troops to that country because they're looking at it as an invasion. This is a black country invading another black country. So they feel they're being used as a proxy of the Western powers. So it's a really bad idea. I must offend you, Professor, that I honestly, as I am sitting, as we're speaking, the only major thing I can remember about Haiti is the earthquake and now gangs. It just seems so deplorable. I did not even know you have over 200 years of freedom. We're barely at our 60 watts. And we are claiming to, you know, know what's best for you. So how would you paint a picture to Kenyans listening or watching right now? Absolutely. So I'd like to begin with the birth of Haiti. So Kenyans need to understand that Haiti was birthed by an African revolution on the island. So our enslaved ancestors came from countries like Congo, DRC, Nigeria, Benin, Togo, Senegal. And when those people were kidnapped from their shores and they arrived to Haiti, which is the indigenous name for the island, they realized that they were making France very rich. Haiti was the most profitable colony in the world in the 18th century. So when these Africans took their liberty, it destabilized the finances of the European world. And this is one of the major reasons why Haiti continuously gets punished by Western powers. So to me, when I am reflecting on other nations, nations who are children, in relationship to how long Haiti has been independent, I think part of the reason they're able to do that is because of a deliberate miseducation about what it means to be Haitian and what it means to be a Black sovereign. So there's a line in our national anthem that says, the force of our arms, like our own strength. And Haitians are very offended by the prospect of Kenyan police officers coming into the country, particularly with what we're learning about the legacy of Kenyan police officers. But recently, just yesterday, I saw a news announcement that Kenya's president made an agreement with the president of the Dominican Republic. And this is only going to further inflame the gangs and the Haitian populace against Kenyan officers who are coming into the country because the Dominican Republic and Haiti, they share a border on a tiny island. It's a very small island, and it's shared by two nations that have had two centuries of conflict. But one of the major issues between Dominicans and Haitians is, though the Dominicans receive their independence from Haiti, they are resentful that they receive their independence from a Black country. And that has animated tensions between the two countries since their inception. So the last week was the anniversary of a massacre that happened in the 1930s, where the Dominican government massacred hundreds of thousands of Haitian people, and the way that they determined who was Haitian, because it's one island, it's one people. But Haitians speak Haitian Creole, and Dominicans speak Spanish, and they asked victims to say the word parsley. And in Spanish, there's a rolling R, and anyone who couldn't say the rolling R was immediately killed. So now the Kenyan president has made an alliance with this government on the anniversary of that massacre. So all of these things are going to open the wound in Haiti, and this is what Kenyan officers are going to be received with. Yeah, and there's already a backlash building worldwide, especially in the U.S. among not only the Haitian diaspora, but even the Black diaspora itself. And this has gone beyond just the government of Kenya, because they're mentioning Kenya is invading. When you talk of the name Kenya, that means you're even talking about the people, right? What does the Kenyan, the public feel? I don't think the public is in full support of this deployment. But you see, Asians and Kenyans interact in different parts of the world, so this is going to impact on the relationship between the people of the island of Haiti and Kenya. So I think people need to build power, right, from the grassroots, because the police officers who are going to be deployed in Haiti, the Kenyans, the fathers, the brothers, you know, and when we lose them, a lot of people are going to be affected, right? And the families need to come together to protect their lives, because police officers are human beings too. We need to protect them as well. Right now I'm told they're being taught French, but in Asia they don't use French, they use the Haitian creole. So how is that language going to help them? The terrain of the country is completely different from Kenya. How are they going to navigate that within just a few months of training, right? You don't know the culture, the language, the terrain. So it's like throwing our police officers into a lion's den, so the country should actually be ready to receive coffins here. And I just want to add a point. So in the African diasporic imagination, Kenya is one of the indigenous speakers of Swahili. In the U.S., there's a holiday called Kwanzaa, and it is built off of principles that we learned from Swahili culture. So this is the this is the stature of prestige that Kenya holds in the imagination of the African diaspora. And to do this against the oldest independent nation in the African diaspora, it tarnishes that legacy. It's going to have a dominant effect, isn't it? Not just in Asia and in Kenya, respectively, but just wow. She mentioned something about allegations. I'll call them allegations. I will stand by my words, allegations about the Kenyan police officers already. And we've been having a little bit of strife here and there since the new president was sworn in. He just finished, I think, a year and a couple of months. But the opposition has been in the past few months leading, picketing or demonstrating. And this is not news. I'm not telling you something you don't know. But the police have been accused of using excessive force. And if someone outside is aware of this, that means we're not doing very well as as a people, but you have the police oversight authority, they started the investigations, but sometimes starting an investigation and actually reaching the heart of the problem can take a while. So I don't know if the other investigations will finish when people have been deployed. But is all this neo-colonialism, is it a thing? Absolutely. It is absolutely neo-colonialism. The way that the Haitian populace is viewing this possible invasion is the U.S. is paying through the U.N. $200 million to Kenya. So Haitians are very clear that this is not the autonomous decision of the Kenyan people. They understand that it's being financed by the United States. So if you're financing your political objectives through a black country, all other black nations are very clear that it is neo-colonialism, but with a black face. Do you feel like we look like stand-up? Yeah. With all that record on how our police officers have handled the people who have been picketing, and not just Kenya, even in the U.S., looking at that entire record on how they respond to revolve, to demonstrations. So they're not going to arrive at the island with the clean hands. So if you have issues to solve in your own country, and you've got this not very impressive record in your own country, how do you go to a different location, you know, a different jurisdiction and say, hey, I've come here to create peace, to solve your problems. Yeah. So I don't think it's really right that the Kenyan police officers are going to arrive. And the Asian people know what has been happening in Kenya. And right now, because Kenya is going to the island, they're reading more about Kenya. They're getting to know Kenya more. And they're not appreciating the behavior of our police officers, unfortunately. And the most unfortunate thing, this is black country being set up against another black country. What Kenyans need to know is that Haiti is a black-led country. These are Africans who were taken here as slaves from Africa many, many years ago. They occupied that island, and they fought their way and occupied that space. And I just want to add, just on Friday, a group of Haitian protesters were in front of the Kenyan embassy in New York. Wow. Yes. So they're very aware. Yes, Nick. So it's not a very good image for Kenya. Even as Kenyans, as we travel abroad, when we pass through airports, we go to different countries, they will tell me, as an individual, say, hey, why are you invading Haiti as an individual? So it's no longer just the country. I've been reading about all this drive going on in the west of the continent. So you have Gabon just went through a coup and they're a bit unstable as well. We have, which other one? Niger. Yes, yes. And there was another failed coup. Now, its name just, I had it in the morning. Burkina Faso. That one, yes. Burkina Faso just actually recently just had a failed coup. And then now here we come. I've always wondered, why is it the west of the continent always has these military uprisings? Let me put it like that. And it's never really come this far to the east, but are we not poking the bear just by insinuating we're going to do something in Haiti? Is there a possibility that they'll be, that get really upset and kind of rally up? Absolutely, absolutely. So right now, there's a conglomerate of gangs in Haiti who are principally financed by elites. And these elites are purchasing weapons from where? The U.S. So in my view, the way to make the gangs stop is to stop the U.S. from shipping weapons to my country. So that's the first point. The second point is once the invasion force arrives to Haiti, all of these gangs that have been fighting against each other, I guarantee you they're going to unite against the Kenyan officers. And the types of weapons that they have, it's these massive weapons that we are always hearing the U.S. media that we need to abolish these types of weapons. So the type of equipment that these gangs have, Haiti doesn't produce these types of weapons. So we know that it's coming from the U.S., but once the Kenyan officers arrive, they're going to be able to put aside their conflicts in order to target Kenyan officers. And on home ground, on their own terrain, like you said, our terrain is different. Yeah, I know you mentioned West Africa. There's a generation of Africans and Black people globally right now who are saying, it's enough. We've suffered enough over hundreds of years. Our resources are being stolen and we're still being labeled as poor. You come and steal from me and you label me as a poor country. And then the same resources you take away from me, you put them in the Bretton institutions like IMF and World Bank, you give me loans at very high rates. So you steal their resources, you give me very expensive loans. That means you're stealing from me twice. And this generation are not taking that. And with the internet, social media, people are able to interact more. So they're using that social media power to advocate, to create revolutions. And the West are not very comfortable with that. We know France is very uncomfortable. They're basically based their economies on resources from these Black-led countries. And if the revolution becomes successful, they're terrified. And they are citizenry, like for example, the people in Europe or France, the regular French people don't know what their governments are doing. They're just enjoying the parks, they're enjoying nice roads, nice buildings, nice services, but they don't know where the money is coming from. So their governments are really terrified if these revolutions and coups go on, their public is going to know how their governments have been behaving abroad. And I just want to underscore something about the resources. So in the 18th century, the Haitian people produced the majority of the global economies, sugar and coffee. So once Haiti gets its independence, France could no longer benefit from the production of sugar and coffee. Similarly, in Niger, they produce the majority of the world's uranium. And in a country like France that is very, they're trying to shift away from fossil fuel, they need that uranium. So to have Niger rebelling against France, yes, it terrifies the French, but it's also a question about the economy. If the Nigerians are able to control that resource in equitable terms, that would mean in France, prices go up. And when prices go up in a country, people protest. So much of these former imperial powers, their interventions in these African countries, in many ways, it's to stop protest within their own borders. Wow. Because the prices will go up. Okay. But that doesn't sound like a win for us, though, does it? Not at all. Not at all. It sounds like things I learned in history come to life. I really didn't think that how many thousands of years later would still be talking about the same, same things. Okay. All right. So maybe as we wrap this up, as an activist, Nick, I'll just start with you, as an activist, how do you think we can control the narrative from ourselves, independent of what our own governments are doing or what's happening in the ground? Let's say tomorrow I go to Malaysia and I'm not going to take my bracelet off, but they're not going to know I'm Kenyan. So how do I make everyone else feel that we're not doing this? This is not our decision. This is not something that was open to the public for voting or debate. So I think, Kenyan, in the last few years, I've shown that there's people power when people come together, especially using social media. You call them keyboard warriors, but keyboard warriors, sometimes they can shape the narrative because we know governments, especially the West, they control the bigger media out there. So people can hold meetings on local communities, hold their local leaders accountable, they can write letters to them, they can go to their offices, because we know every Friday our leaders live in Nairobi, going to the countryside, holding public rallies. They should hold them accountable when they hold these public rallies. And I think in the last few years, the Kenyan public have been questioning their leaders publicly. You remember when there are different scandals, and especially recently when political leaders were involved in a scandal on taking students to Finland, the Kenyan public questioned them publicly. I think we can build power that way, and they can use that power to stop the government from deploying our sons and daughters in this island. Haiti is a black country. These are African people. Let's not fight each other. Let's not be used by the West to separate. As I told you, when you're traveling as a Kenyan, you want to meet an Haitian person and be your sister and brother. Yes, we do not want that relationship to be strained in any way. Yes. All right, now before we have your last remarks, Professor, I think we're just going to take a very, very short break, and then we'll be right back. Remember, keep it here on Y in the morning. Y 254