 my god welcome welcome everybody it would go i feel like i may have screwed up the sound settings there i can't remember you see i can't around with something else you hit it and it was lovely most people hit it i heard you actually i'm gonna call with you so the fact is i did screw it up but it was loud enough that nobody really noticed because you guys were just super quiet for a second well yeah now that you've pointed it out now that you pointed it out it's gonna be on people's but i fixed it while also pointing it out so it's all worked it's perfect nothing's wrong everything's working as intended no worries good observation fair point hello everyone welcome hi it's been five years uh with every year that closes it it's just like what the fuck save doesn't time fly it really do uh time so when you're fleamin time flies when you're having fun watching movies tv shows playing video games looking at little articles clips all the different things in the world media what a miracle and uh i sure do like miracle and media media miracles as you guys are familiar with when we do these sorts of things as the title says we basically just cover everything with everyone buncies now the everyone part is basically people you've been seeing over the course of the year possibly others you know fun times and uh in terms of the everything who knows probably movie related that tends to be the trend but uh thank you all for tuning up look how excited chat i always feel so everybody hello hello and by that because you know it was almost going to be that we wouldn't do any kind of celebration anything unless it looks like every hundred episodes that was the original plan and we were like probably should do it yearly and then it's like yeah shit because it takes us it takes us a whole year to do 50 episodes doesn't the crazy part it's like whenever we get close to me you would well us we're all just like hmm 24 hours hmm and you know it's actually longer than that because of the breaks and the getting up beforehand that's right it wasn't that one year where you two i think it was a 100 what the one you won for like 30 hours yeah 29 29 yeah i made that decision uh i think that was just trying to go for as long as possible all right not a mistake obviously no it was fun that is that as long as possible that is the longest that i have uh i think that's the longest i've ever stayed awake actually don't sell yourself so short is that the longest you've stayed awake for i think so i can't think of any other time i would have stayed up longer than that because you know life is weird i don't know myself i just know that that's that's the limit you can't stay up longer than that that's that's that's that's it that's actually the limit it's not possible yeah it's not possible to stay up any longer than that well whenever you yeah you hear those people who are like i stayed up for like a whole week you're like did you though did you know really did you or did you just stay up for like 29 hours is that what you really mean never understand it it's uh and you have those characters in movies though like i stayed up for a whole week it's like did you did you i don't really know about that that 29 hour one uh right so i went for a walk once we were done with the stream i can't remember if i've said this on stream before but when i was starting you know like the the lamps or the the street lights sort of thing they had intense trails and i was like hmm this is probably not good i'm trying to send me a signal here yeah but something is very wrong and he's very sad and disappointed in me for doing this to him hello metal hi metal you sound earlier than i expected i i missed a whole preamble on the stream we are a little earlier than expected possibly because we're going to try and take advantage of every last second that we're awake so we can get through the 24 also hi theo hello there he was here as well fascinating look at that we're already filling up the the roster it's crazy wow who knows who'll turn up next could be any i don't it could be i sure don't know well what we do know is what the subject's gonna be it's uh it was a tradition that started for some reason there was nothing to it really the in terms of why it had to happen but it did and that is covering uh stealing videos that relate to video games that's that's the usually the first thing i can remember what we did cover on 50th but the i think it was oh was it something with difficulty as like a as a as a video game might have been more recent yeah i don't remember all i remember is 100 was privilege goggles ah he didn't say that didn't he privilege goggles we are also joined by jedi brooks and the movie cynic hello there gentlemen hello my goodness brooks is your image isn't quite loading for me is that for the same for everyone else oh this is fine yeah it's fine all right okay nice to meet you guys yeah i never everyone's saying that everybody because i don't know who's mad at each other or not this whole internet thing is a scary place mad or not yeah i'm starting to lose track can we mad metal uh like that streamer guy right are you the one that really likes the clone wars yeah that's me that's me oh okay i love the clone wars i love sabine wren and bo katan and darth mall and evil evil bastard what's the name of the character savage oppress savage oppress evil bastard somehow i prefer the name evil bastard evil well that's that's the subtlety of phelony writing did you really survive another lightsaber to the gut like i didn't watch it yet but oh yes there's another one that doesn't think he took it like a champ she recovered faster than anyone i've got a wonderful fans probably like what do you think of isoka talk about it's like oh you'll get it you'll get it you'll get plenty of time so come in on the way well tv is definitely isn't terrible in cringe it's very good you'll why would you even think that i don't know why i would think that there was a few people who had hope it's also i don't know why i don't know why stop it it's okay stop eating poopy it's a human thing do them alone we had a few people on open barbie and like why do you guys hate everything because everything is shit because it's like all about all of the third time i like every time someone survived a sad and nor is great yeah we like that we didn't watch it for three months because we weren't that interested in it that is such an obvious like we had no bias that was that was a wonderful thing i don't know how they could still bring that up after andor and helps the dragon like and like like you said pacard season three like there's yeah opportunities for people to be biased yet when it's good it's good like i don't know exactly when it's good it's good well label and dismiss has been a part of most political sort of factions on the internet makes as much sense that would be part of media factions as well i label you as biased bye bye yep and you're not i am i am immune to have no opinion one way or the other yeah that's the crazy part about it good times it all makes sense it all follows through it's wonderful star was in a great position everybody i love star wars you know star wars is great and fun and it's very so reva fennec and now the sabine chick is that three people have been stabbed by the guy they're like insides destroyed quagon is the exception to the role when it was a bit giant like this abdomen actually caused them trouble that moment was so dramatic it made the fight so much more significant and to think that it's aged that poorly because of these stupid shows don't like going back well remember i'm like who cares jedi false healing was a thing too they didn't know oh well take that back he didn't have the book he didn't have raised stupid book he would have figured it out oh my god it's amazing how now even phantom menace for all of its horrific problems because that movie is terrible garbage even now one of the best parts of that movie is going to be ruined because when watching quagon gets stabbed we're like oh walk it off you pussy yeah everyone else did remember padawan slash not stab stabbing gut what is it oh stab twist gut that's the one that's how you that's how you kill an orc as you stab twist gut thank you for that lesson god i was saying a free that um we're supposed to take a week off after anniversary streams but last time we didn't because rings of power came out and everyone was like go talk about rings of power you're already behind not so unlucky this year apparently they're fine because that'll be out next year right uh it will probably be delayed yeah they filmed through the strike so it'll be out next year so what's um what's not being delayed house of the dragon rings of power the marvels not being delayed okay as long as i think it's i think it's been moved up a week so maybe it might be moved up a week because dunes now gone so they can stack up those i max screens that's that'll make that'll make the marvels good no i'm not in i max it's a theory yeah yeah i don't think i even have an i max absolutely i'm supposed to mention this while everybody in the description you can find it there is a survey just like there is every year as far as i remember if you get to you get to vote on whatever your favorite e-things were throughout the year of e-fap related stuff on movies episodes blah blah blah check it out while you're watching the stream i guess uh everyone's allowed to fill that out even man you have homework what i can't read though oh you can get one of the text speech things you can get that sort of by the time this stream ends yeah you can learn to read yeah do it so i've posted the watch together link everyone jump in we got four right now we're missing three oh let me click it here and hopefully it's very chaotic here we uh let people in and cycle people out based on basically who came in first and came in last and availability and stuff and right now we're up to a steady seven people here that's pretty good actually it's not chaotic yet we're doing good i can't count that far already yeah that's nice and uh today we're going to be checking out because i imagine we may as well just kicking off and watching some videos talking about and pausing that's the whole thing i think uh this video is called you didn't finish the game and it relates to the concept of reviewing video games without having finished them oh this ought to be good yes i mean this shouldn't be straight pretty straightforward i think i've given it a watch through and i've got all time stamps for the discussion parts the stealing video so you can end up with a lot of crazy shit in it and i've uh i've made sure to cut around so that we can just talk about the main points being brought up because isn't that the fun of the uh the the whole thing there's even another video that i've got as a potential that's called you didn't need to finish the game oh my goodness oh it's just yeah this is this is a topic that's come up in the world of gaming i don't know i think it's a fucking game you bums like at just what are they yeah that's ridiculous listen if it's you know it depends on the game right some games on the game depends on what you're doing as well and some games complete in the means different things you know yeah like completing an mmo or well we'll see if that any of that comes up maybe maybe we're wasting our fucking time oh and then that's worth remembering the total total viscous format of uh doing uh impressions coverage was first impressions but very deliberately you might sort of everyone know that as much exactly yeah as long as it's clear yeah i think that's the important part um obviously we could we could give our takes on all this but we may as well use the video to sort of introduce them i guess and that means we're starting around yeah here we go ah oh my god what the fuck is that oh my god it's what is that it's an aesthetic are we skipping the video essayist preamble yes this is only a minute long this part that i skip again because this introduces the idea of the video and then we get to the discussion of the video there's a portion where uh like dumbass comments are read and it's just like we don't need to do the thing like we don't which you know what no shade to anyone who does it i'm just saying we got lots of videos to cover okay well if your intro was good we might give a shit about it but all of jim stephanie sterling physician's intros are terrible and they're cringe and they're never funny so why bother this crazy idea that people say stupid things on the internet unbelievable unheard of and they leave them in youtube comments as well well if you have what could be considered a controversial perspective and then you go right time to defend my position and then you start talking about the stupidest craziest people like you should do it or aliens will abduct you it's like you know this isn't even this doesn't even make sense yes this is video games there's no aliens involved what's happening i just uh i take a shoot i enjoy any lead i'm just staring at this hat i think wrong smile a mouse i'm just gonna say it i wore it better wait when did you have a top hat um it was on my thumbnail for my jim sterling response last oh cool cool yeah omega ridley did it it was really good i rock it absolutely definitely yes 100 every time well then let us see this introduction of the tallight lettuce do game reviewer today well some of you may have seen this episode coming we will of course be touching on my by the way if you're gonna do like the crt the crt like monitor effect you need to have the lines moving like if it's static it just looks weird yeah well that's where you're that's where you're wrong fringy that's a common misconception whenever you would buy a crt monitor back in the day it had this like film over the over the screen that had those lines on it so you had to make sure that when you brought it home you had to peel it off yeah you had to peel off that film so that the lines would go it's like when you you get a new phone you got to peel off the crt fake display thing they always come out of the pose to have them yeah like seriously it has to move this just looks that is part of what it does that's the whole point is that they move the spice inviting review for the legend of zelta the tears of the majority oh my god indigo gaming welcome to the show where are you gaming climbers jump right into that watch together you can join us we're about to start the discussion of whether or not one must complete a game before reviewing it that's a good bomb bomb yeah no problem your is mask of the link to the kingdom of time oh that's all the names combined i get it that's really funny i think that cut was to be like yeah your big mighty bow broke because that's the big the big thing right equipment damage degradation in mighty bows can break right the zelda games people got upset about that you see i was really annoying in the first one it was a bit it was better in the in the newer one but still in the new annoying it's still annoying damn them document a particular flavor of rhetoric that turns up whenever a controversial review comes out and the fandom gets mad which it always does because the fan base is fucking exhausting you can leave whenever you want you why did they do this if they find it that like exhausting i don't get it what do you have to say about this just like well i mean yeah i don't know it's just some that's just what happens i guess i agree i don't like welcome to the internet like yeah you don't have to go and fistfight them is that you could that you could yeah you know that if you're reviewing silent films back in the day that there'd be a fan base who are like hey you fucking gave this an eight this was a nine piece of shit it's not exactly a big change but um you know what fair enough if they've been particularly angry this time let's maybe let's see what they've said the topic i want to get off of my even productive chess this week is the case of fandoms arguing that a review is you were in better shape you wouldn't heed when you said because the reviewer didn't finish the game an argument that presents a real tactical own goal if they actually got what they claim they want it all right that's our hook but the truth is you don't want reviewers to finish games what because they would form a clever opinion of it um is that the longer i play the game the worse my opinions get it unless you have like unless you have 200 hours in a game i don't want to hear your review on it like that's like minimum for me personally because there's so many things to explore christ yeah no like a one hour game 200 in terms of like a mechanic like a mechanically heavy i'm a game that's heavy on mechanics that's going to be important to me i really want to know someone who's going to be completely thorough but if it's just a one hour game wait let's take let's take a normal game like bio shock how how many hours should you should you have in that okay okay okay that's uh a couple hours with that that wouldn't bother me but something like um a couple you went from 200 okay compare that uh compare that to something like league of legends or dead by daylight something that's like really mechanically focused i want to know that they've had an extensive amount of extensive amount of time in the game but something that's a little bit more story based then that's not gonna i'm gonna be have a little more leeway with that because i was gonna say with bio shock i probably want him to complete it preferably twice depending on what kind of review they want to do if they're just doing like oh this is what i thought of it when i played it once like whatever that's almost like there's almost like the premise for all of this it's just label what you actually did at the beginning and then tell me what you felt and thought i guess we know the scope there's loads of different things going on within this space we call reviewing there's exhaustive analytic appraisals and then there's just the sort of first impression this is what i made of it so recommendation no recommendation based on what you think of my taste and how it aligns with yours sort of thing yeah this actually reminds me a lot of this this talk that uh total biscuit had way back in the day and actually uh he i think he i actually asked him that question when i was at his panel like way back when in dragon con and he was saying that he specifically kind of does is that he did his impressions videos like mid game to get his like kind of on the ground kind of expression of opinion as he was in the middle of the game but he did not frame those as reviews he would always call them impressions videos because that he had not finished the game yet a series was called wtf is yeah yeah yeah and there were always impressions videos and i think that has some value but i think that a review definitely demands that you have a very thorough understanding of the game at least completed at once or and and depending on game the kind of game where it has like multiple paths multiple classes etc you might actually have to play it twice or three times to get a full that's where um because it's like where's the harm why people are angry it's like it's usually when you give a bad review and you weren't familiar with the mechanics or you're wrong that's where people get i have a yeah i have a great example that uh tonalde actually did a review i was i he actually did a collab video with me a long time ago um before he blew up and and uh he did a review of the uh uh third try to the thirteenth game and i was steam friends with a minute time he did a review published a video on the game and he had 45 minutes of gameplay on that title oh oh that's a bit low yeah that's a little low you're not going to have an understanding of the mechanics or the bugs or like you know what actually is overpowered and the things that people actually want to know the the the the proper information you're just going to have your your based impression and if they make that clear in the beginning that's fine but a lot of people don't the fairly frustrating truth of things is that mastery has a really strong correlation with familiarity with mechanics yes yes that's where i got my crazy 200 number from i should have i should have referenced league before i just threw out that number because that's so like open for video games but what would an analytic appraisal of sorry for the sidetrack but what would that even look like if you were to like i'm going to review league of leg that's the problem is league evolves every fucking week so yeah seasons i and it's also one of the most complex games ever made yeah i think the approach you'd have to take is going through um showing a bronze match silver match all the way up to challenger and explaining the different like the different uh criteria of improvement that probably the the only way you can do it because like how are you going to explain that to someone who's never played the game oh man even that would take forever yeah and then you take into account seasons and stuff like that like i i got i got into smite for a while and then i think season three came out and they completely re uh changed the entire health health regaining system and all stuff and i i put about 200 hours in that game and i felt like a complete newbie again it was crazy you blink you blink and then you don't even know what what happened with these patch notes you have to stay like oh yeah i mean i've played league like once or twice a year with some friendos who played all the time and every time i log in it's like i don't know any of this recognize the items like you know the map that's it they don't change the map but as none of these has none of the skills anymore that i know yeah just pray the cat pray that they weren't reworked like who knows like they're probably reworked twice yeah we was uh we were joking about the other day uh mel but like you know every time i rejoin the game we'd be like what does scion do now does he steal the map from the dead please please when i watched it it'd been so long since i played league that when i when i watched arcane i'm like hey i know hymen dinger that's about it oh my god and he didn't make a single turret what a drip but don't say hymen please don't say hymen dinger yeah don't say hymer dinger sir hymer dinger sorry yeah that's i don't think a few hymens in my day but we're not i can't believe they got me to like vi and jace because i remember going into the show i i'm just thinking this bitch has punched me in the head like a thousand times jace has blown me up so i hate you all so much fuck echo i hated all the people that i know is going to be in it and like within 40 seconds it was like oh okay i could see tonally like they were going for something completely different and i was just blown away with the show can you guys get gary to watch that please like he i don't know why you guys have to hold held him down like hold him down and make him watch that show he needs to meet gerek was like fuck andor for a second in terms of like in comparison to this like i mean with gary you're never gonna get a watch and or what i'm gonna get through with him with and or i think it is much more like we get gary to watch and or than arcane i don't think he's gonna watch arcane really yeah uh man i have to pay him that's a shame we can he's got he's got the comic book or something the star wars bias with and or but i think arcane is just like you got to talk him into that one it's just like just to have them as references if we did put like screens into a comic book and they play like 10 minutes per page maybe that's the way to get through we have the abilities um all right so yeah that's your intro which means we're gonna now skip to the discussion because most of this is incoherent rambling about like stupid comments this is where it gets to the the juice right oh i love me some juice this brings us to the real thing wow you know i just i just ring yay lord of ring people at home cause see it but i just skipped like i was gonna say there's no way you just i skipped a lot i hate video sas you skip 10 minutes 19 minutes we're 19 minutes in the video now we have we have oh my goodness all of that was incoherent rambling from the proof by the way i do love the golem inspires like a sense of endearing does like everyone's just like oh there he is look at him yeah look at him go yeah go go go go go somehow so much you could say it wasn't his public and he only manages like 10 minutes on it apparently uh because like this is the thing i checked through and i was i was like this was the part i found interesting so maybe it's just me but right you know don't want to spend 10 years on on a video all about golem possibly on zelda i i'm not here to defend the concept that reviewers don't have to finish games no i'm here to point out the tactical stupidity of using that concept to defend a video game that seems like a interesting guidance approach point of view well good obviously i imagine the same for you but it's like wait what's what is going to be the argument there is no why wouldn't you talk about the principled position of whether you need to complete a game to do a review of a game why would you go you ethically rush it off instantly instead it's like no you don't want that okay super straight forward argument you don't play the game enough you get things wrong and then the game's reputation suffers is that did you do something wrong or should that be okay should that just be fine i think it's more positions i think it's fine for you to have the position that that is a fine thing to do and the human error should be expected sort of thing but i also think it's fine to be like yeah you should avoid that at all costs and you should condemn it when we find it that's what i think but you know that discussion doesn't get hard we have a different one in this video also hi john hello hello hi welcome welcome welcome i don't know who you have or have not met here so everyone just shout hi hi hi there we go we did it everyone's met each other all right we've all met wasn't that fun the real question is uh sorry there is a link for you uh john to the watch together we're checking out an opinion about games oh got you so the real question is uh is golem going to win the argument here i think so he's won every one so far play big mean reviewer what didn't like it you didn't even finish the game is often screened through a veil of assumptions by gamers furious that a product they're hyped for got a score i mean you can't be this incredulous when a lot of reviewers do not finish the game and you can tell yeah if you are a game reviewer then asking them to finish the game generally it's not it's not unreasonable and it's like can you review the can you use a product before you review it you know loaded with assumptions i'd say it's loaded with one big one which is true right which is you didn't complete it yeah then the one that follow through from that is the the less you play like the more you play the more information you're going to gain about the game the more comprehensive your understanding is going to be that's pretty intuitively that just makes a lot of sense yeah unlike film where you can fucking watch the first 10 minutes then use footage from all of it because you have the file a lot of the time with games people can tell how much you completed from looking at your footage like wait a minute yeah that's right something you unlock seven minutes into the game they don't even now mention it you know like this was something that was an issue in uh jim sterling's uh final fantasy uh review the 16 is the new one yeah our 15 yes 16 is the newest one everyone we're on final fantasy new was all of jim sterling's footage was from a particular point in the game so it's like oh oh well i think that was because that was the crux of the point that sterling was making about the game and and not liking it but it was strange nonetheless so i just imagine like the cup had reviews like what are you the tutorial right off was that just gameplay i can't remember uh i'm not the famous like saying that was like a hushy yeah well that wasn't a review right that was just no that was just making fun why did they post that to make fun of it i don't know but thank you thank you saying why did why did the original like the the company that he worked for why would they post that thinking yeah this is good this is good people will love this look reputable at our jobs yes any cuphead footage is good cuphead footage wasn't that uh then there was the doom eternal one right there was uh oh yeah oh yeah good ol dean it's very bad at video games deem too low hell sometimes they ironically say this about games they haven't played attacking reviews of stuff that is even out doesn't play them because they were waiting for your review to see if it's worth playing well a lot of the time you're going to have access first because you're yes but even then people don't need to have even played the game to have the perspective that you ought to play a game to completion before you review it exactly like what does it mean does it like the principle develops in real time it's like you need to have played to completion every game that i personally have played with all the other ones i can't have an opinion yeah like you can't review my review until you've played the game fully like no there's plenty going on exactly i think it's i think it's like a basic expectation of a reviewer that they had played the whole game like that like if you want to be extensive and play it several times as preferred but at least finish the game once that's like the base requirement i'd say out yet this argument is treated by many phantoms as the ultimate gotcha the holy grail of self soothing justice it sounds like they got you you sound a bit big mad about it yeah no i'm not just sterling the ball mad prove a reviewer didn't finish a game or just convince themself of it they can discredit said review completely of course well no the point would be that the reviewer so discredited itself like the they're trying to point that out it's i would say that it's something wrong because it's rare that they would simply say you didn't even finish the game but even if that's something that's being said it's not hard for people to pick up what the point is like oh so they fucked up or they've got things wrong or they they're not very good and they they couldn't be the later levels sort of thing which is another thing by the way the most passionate fans don't want to hear you talk about how hard the first few levels were and how you didn't like that gonna be like um okay part of the part of the problem is that um people have it's the reason why people do harp on this stuff like we were talking about with like the cuphead gameplay if that's your mode of play for that game that's going to be pretty useless the information that the perspective you have on that game is going to be pretty useless for most people because you're just not playing it at the same level that they are and i don't even talk about like a you know an extremely high level of play but just like a normal average level of play and it's and people you know when people buy these games a lot of the people are going to be looking at these reviews probably have some expectation of playing it to the end so you probably need to try to mirror you know the experience that those people are going to have and and want to get information about from you and the only way someone can discredit something you've said that's incorrect about the game is by having more knowledge than you have which is usually from them having played the game which they usually can't do because you're press and you have it early it's relevant for armored cord is coming out because already having people on this like the first boss is too hard this bad game it's like are we still not have you still arrived at the point where it's like oh from soft cam that's probably going to be a hard game yeah and just imagine all the games that you've played like if everybody's played a mgs 5 i've not played all the way through it but imagine reviewing the game after playing with the first two hours versus the next 50 mgs live is like 100 hours long or something i don't know yeah but like and i have 50 hours and i don't even know if i finished it if i got to the point that was the end that was it uh when i started recycling the missions i was yeah that's right i'm done i came to a point where where i thought i was done and i was like okay now here's more it's like wait what i thought okay and then after you got skull face i don't know if we have like like ds2 where it's like oh dragon rider again it's like yeah but he's on a really small platform that's different like great and he just falls off and you're like oh that was an old s and s game trick where like after you defeat all these bosses they would just have a final boss rush at the end and recycle every single boss like almost every game did that they did that in devil may cry for but that's because the game was like horrendously unfinished the entire back half of the game is backtracking through the same levels as a different character and then you also get boss rushes all the old bosses just over again is that the middle gear solid five just reminded me of something that is related to the way that games are reviewed i could be wrong about this but as i remember it a lot of the initial reviews that came out for metal gear solid five were the product of a like a five day long eight hours per day uh like boot camp where they had to play the game and try to complete it within that time and so plenty of reviewers would have needed to it was the chicken hat that made you invulnerable um and and and so you think about the idea of um what are the optimal ways of essentially creating and presenting a review to people playing a game under those conditions where you're in a rush to get it done would be like another example of how the way that you go about it can sort of change your experience of the game the information that you pull from the game and what you're going to provide to play so you aren't going to be playing it like that um it's it's uh it's really important and it probably ought to be encouraged more in reviews some level of disclosure about the way that you went about it not necessarily for circumstance like not just for circumstances like that but how many times did you play it how long did it take you to complete it like this information is not going to it's never going to be unproductive to be clear about how much time you've spent with the game and how you did it and the environment that they were put into like you know that this kind of super fast kind of expo like where you get gift bags and you're kind of like you got to have a hotel and you know food and everything like that like that yeah there's there's a certain energy to that like imagine watching the same movie by yourself on netflix at home versus watching it in a theater that cheers at every major event who's like who are like shouting when their favorite hero shows a fun screen things like that you're going to get two very different experiences watching it in a theater with the people who made the movie set to your left and to your right after they paid me to come here and pay your room and they're watching you and looking at you the whole time did you like that wasn't that a funny joke yeah laugh laugh at laughing isn't it fun look how much everyone's like how come you're the only one in here not laughing yeah you're not gonna get an honest opinion in that from someone in that situation like with all that pressure like it's um well yeah i'm like he even talked about the cultural element of just the quicker the better every time for everything yeah quicker quicker quicker with reviews that everybody feels very much oppressed especially for these uh outfits right like journalist websites especially the smaller ones that there's like a real pressure to get it out as soon as possible you know that the embargo date is the date you want your review out because later people don't care as much people are less interested you lose out in those tasty views you'll serve this isn't as necessary yeah it's like a difference doesn't work for games doesn't work for games like imagine watching a home loan at four on dvd it'd be the worst experience ever but what being like rich ebbons watching it right next to mccole colkin and making fun of it would be the most hilarious thing in the world so it's just like it's all about context especially with yeah i got i got kind of caught up in games like uh you know when i went to expose and stuff and played overwatch before it came out people would stand in lines for three hours to play like two matches of that game and then when it came out uh you know people got bored of it you know it was a good game for a while and people were really excited for it but the environment of like oh my god you got to wait in this huge line and and uh wait hours to be able to try this amazing game but when it's released to the public people were waiting for hours to play lawbreakers and that game died really fast yeah their triumphant invalidation won't make the review disappear and it won't stop them being so fragile they get violently angry over a reviewer angry i mean but also you're getting angry over the reaction yeah i'm so i'm so tired of it no one cares nobody cares jim sterling's the one who um well jim sterling has opinions regarding violence and who it's okay to enact it again so i don't really care about their opinion on what at this point we're saying if someone says like this review is shit you should fuck off are they like whoa violence the reviewer just starts out by telling you how his morning went it's like it's not relevant i don't care yeah uh i'm interested in your morning fear i'm not interested in my morning and i was there when it happened i don't know i guess i got up a mission coffee i saw a little board seven out of ten so they'll be left with annoying and hollow feeling in their terminally irrational minds when they find themselves unable to move on i get it man they believe you're upset by the way i cut out loads of just ripping into annoying comments that's what we're 20 minutes into a 29 minute video why are we going to be so dramatic either like he's just been bitching so far what is the he hasn't made a point what does the script look like is it just internet people are freaks like 20 000 times repeated the truth's gotta get out there okay accusation the sheer pointless nurse and ineffectiveness of the argument isn't what's stupid however no that's not what makes you didn't play the game a fucking imbecilic way to defend a video game from a review but it would totally be this is the thing that annoys me about the video it's like can you not accept a single possible time where it would be valid not one nope yeah when someone plays it for 10 minutes and then does a review and says and presents it as being pretty comprehensive surely everybody would agree that point you kill a couple of hollows in dark souls then you say like the combat is absolute shit you just kill a bunch of things that can't even move well oh you know if we're talking about uh this game like we're talking about uh tears of the kingdom if you said yeah no i i completed the the opening like sky islands and then when i got to when i got to land that was it i was done yeah you're missing like five six game mechanics you can't even use yet but then you're missing like 95 percent of the game aren't you yeah exactly so it's like yeah uh no it's probably every time are you gonna talk about that part i don't think so if you do how did you watch videos on it instead of playing the game there what makes it a strategic own goal is the fact that if they got what they wanted and they forced every reviewer to play every game to thorough completion it would be far more likely to lower a score than raise it sorry what so it was but i guess it's not the case what i think the keyword here is forced because yeah the way it's being contextualized is that the reviewer is you know they've done it what they wanted to do and then someone says ah and sits them down change them up and says you must get to the credits before you can say a thing and of course that would be unpleasant to the point where it would infect your own playthrough but what people are advocating for is can you please have integrity accuracy and honesty that's what they want yeah yeah i know there's gonna be goobas who are just saying it to discredit you and everything but the gorgeous we move past those guys and yeah actually don't have to care about the random freak on the internet who says nonsense you don't like the guy in your youtube comments you don't have to care about him i promise you should have evolved past this a long yeah i was about to say you gotta have thicker skin than this no matter what you do he's gonna be there and like imagine giving a review is like yeah you know i watched the first hour of uh you know the the latest marvel movie is pretty good you guys could go see it i give it an eight out of ten is not the thing or watching half the episodes of the show or something that system should be approved of um by basically every reviewer if they're gonna have this kind of point of view and it would be insane if you were to because we do it these days for tv shows a lot of reviewers review the whole show based on the first few episodes because that's like what they get given which is already weird secret invasion was getting decent reviews based which is already pretty terrible yeah this first couple episodes but wow but if they'd seen that last episode would they have been as positive probably not uh well maybe maybe they would have been they they weren't quite sure what the tide you know where it was gonna turn okay under that yeah i i just i pulled a drax arm and really pulled people out you know yeah well they did yeah i broke so many people you've been watching a mike flanagan show all the way up to the right up to the last episode would be very misleading because his shows were great usually up to like the last episode which one which one well i i might be the minority opinion but i i didn't like i've not seen all of them but i love the two uh blimey and um hillhouse i did not like the last episode as much as the rest uh midnight mass i think the last episode was nonsense i've heard that one's like the worst but uh hillhouse's ending yeah i agree yeah blimey's ending i like hillhouse was i understand why they did it but they should have went with um the the proper ending they should have like committed i agree yes sweet liver and onions i didn't like liver and onions before i was made to eat it and i fucking resented liver and onions afterwards you can't improve someone's opinion of something by cramming it down their throat but that's not what people are trying to do don't review video games and fuck off it's like a false premise was it crammed down your throat when you reviewed it in the first place i'm saying that you need to be like locked in a dungeon until you complete it they're asking you to play it to the end to develop a more comprehensive understanding of the game that's it they care about your accuracy more so than your opinion this is such a weird analogy this is more like an analogy of like making a first person shooter or fan play a sports game or making a strategy game fan play an rpg or whatever that that'd be a more appropriate analogy this is no if you're going to actually provide a complete analysis and review of this game you should probably have a pretty good idea what what the entire game plays like there's so many simple aspects to it just when you say any broad statements about the mechanics or the soundtrack or the levels or the enemies or the combat and you've not actually consumed all of those things from the thing people stuck in a bit weird about it like oh i think i guess i uh because i thought i had guessed right but no what i thought the point was going to be was the more that somebody plays the game the more likely it is that they're going to understand the mechanics so well that they might start noticing flaws that would up yes possibly somebody who's not as familiar with the mechanics you know which doesn't need to be a problem of course i mean i think everybody would generally consider it to be a good thing because it's based on a more comprehensive understanding of the game but it seems the point is no if they had to play it longer than they wanted to their bias would start to seep into the point that it would infect the review which is a weird point to make that you're so compromised in terms of your bias yeah it would be impossible for you to to be accurate anymore i think it's nuts that um the the counter argument is yeah well i'll become so biased against it i'll give an even worse review my whole issue with you so far was how you're too biased in a bad way yeah you fucked up this is worse for you not me part of the big i'm just mad at you now like we should be trying for some level of objectivity not you just being a bitter asshole yeah you know well then someone just points out a simple mistake they say oh you said this was this it's actually this like fuck you next time i'm gonna say even stupid as shit just to annoy you okay and like if you're really just falling off a game that hard you can still put out what you have with the understanding and the intellectual humility to say how much time you put into the game fine by making them sit at the table all night and finish the plate i guarantee you that if i felt forced to engage with zelda's broken weapons and ass backwards controls more than i felt i had to if i felt obliged to play more of the bits i thought were convoluted wastes of time i'd have given it a lot lower than a seven out of ten backward ass fucking logic is this when you're like you don't want me to give it a more thorough review because it'd be more negative yeah i don't give a fuck if it's more negative it's more accurate exactly not necessarily surely there's got to be some instance where playing more would improve your experience i mean come on because you come to understand what you were doing wrong for example exactly the same reason why if you you know it's not quite the same because not interactive but you watch a film twice sometimes you can benefit greatly from that experience and we've come to a really good film a lot of people saw it on end game on the second watch that's like i feel like you i feel like you don't really know a film until you rewatch it that's when you like you take your emotions out of it and get the truth and the fact that this guy is like like uh appealing to the start process for video games is crazy to me like the first time around for easy games example dark souls one i've seen this is anecdotal but i've seen both myself and so many people on their first time through that game get to the bell gargoyles get just rinsed over and over again for hours and hate the game they hate it then they beat it and they love it yeah like something starts to click after they are good enough to beat that boss and suddenly they're in love with the game well it happens sometimes that you can play a game for a very long time and just be completely out of sync with it you just don't get it you you aren't in rhythm with what uh it's the most optimal experience uh with that game and then the longer you play it you just start like oh shit okay yeah now i get it you know that happens you're robbing yourself of those potential eureka moments with a game um and if it freaks like me well it's so funny right or okay if you suggested that could happen that that could happen you could enjoy the game that's insane why would you ever say that i'm just gonna hate it you're like oh i get a better understanding of it and like understand why you like the things that you like why they work why they don't work and it's such a narrow minded like point of view i don't get it this is such a weird take to like is is this kind of take the idea that reviews need to be positive to talk about like the idea that we wait we must praise zelda because it's a it's a zelda game like it almost sounds like yeah here is that sterling is very heavily invested in the conversation around that and particularly i guess nintendo fanboys specifically getting mad about the review that it's so might in that that it's almost impossible to move past that to get to the fundamental conversation which is do you need to complete a game to review it properly you know why should you do that one of the arguments against it it's just too might in the matter what benefit is there to not completing a game unless you're specifically trying to just describe your first impression well if you're a reviewer not much if you're me it's a terrible game many but for a reviewer um yeah i don't see how ever finishing a game is going to be worse than not finishing it yeah it's really about like how backward this is more context you just have to accept this argument of if you were already not liking it you are going to like it less but then again that assumes that the points of playing at morris to necessarily have a positive review of a game rather than a better review of a game is exactly maybe the um maybe the element here is because we've talked about this in the the cinema aspect with what the duty is of a reviewer and what a good review what a good review is when we go to the you know video game side if we were to ask jim sterling what do you think is the duty of a good video game reviewer what should they strive to do and what makes a video game review a good one as opposed to a bad one and maybe jim sterling is operating on a completely different like goal or mindset of what a video game reviewer needs to be doing well something that maybe maybe uh these types of journalists who are trying to cover more or less every major release rather than doing the thing that uh like if they went to video yeah they need to go to some more video game festivals all right well what i mean is that i because you know i would feel compelled to cover every single game not obviously it's not every single journalist individually is going to do it but in the case of the sterling review like a lot of games in a year or only like five or six in a year because if there's that pressure as well of you want to be making sure that you're doing reviews for every major release that's just limits the amount of time that you have available and the passion you're going to have interest in each of them that's that's true are you going to be particularly interested in every major release that comes out with exaggeration exactly so if there's that too and i just want to touch on what reg said like the requirement for a reviewer like if let's say it was a list of three to five things don't you think finishing the fucking game would be on it like that's just like such a base requirement well seriously the sort of empathy i can give is when you deal with a game that's enormous it's like what does it mean to complete it it's like i understand that i understand um but as you can see uh as evidenced on the screen right now uh one thing i know the the controversy surrounding this whole review had was that that is a low amount of hearts is it not for a zelda game i'm gonna have to ask my zelda experts here like metal sorry i just tuned up for you're if you ask me i'm like i i'm i'm like linked to the past zelda i was about to say i'm like 20 you gotta get all 20 i think you can get into two rows with your ex well that was something that um uh still got picked up for basically as controversy on the review is the is a shit amount of hearts in all the footage oh yeah you can't you weren't you you wouldn't even be able to get the master sword with these amounts of hearts i just don't know how much you played the game doesn't it yeah you need to do a bunch of uh uh what you could go to the shrines that's right a lot of them and then you get all the uh all the parts for that and is the thing tears of the kingdom uh has a lot of shrines some of them are pretty good and some of them are fine because they vastly improve those shrines i think over the of a breath of the wild so there's a lot of things you can see and also talk about in that also i've been uh probably want to play just got a message from kiba kins he has a live e-fap anniversary coverage on efap.me oh yes apologies for stopping a half hour really we did mention it was because uh we needed to get going as soon as possible because we're gonna have to be off 24 hours at least yes those vinyls look good in the corner man nice they do i i'm really digging the aesthetic of this e-fap anniversary i really really like it that's pro it's probably my favorite actually i really love it i really like it of course yes the vinyls are still ready to be purchased but not forever folks links in the description for that as well and thanks to kiba kins gonna keep a live note of everything that happens and this is on efap.me forward slash 250 you want to get uh information on everything that's been happening great straight there in the very aesthetically pleasing place let's be honest this is like it looks really lovely it's a professional one of the professional gig all right you're an amateur hour anyway anyway take warhammer 40 000 bolt gun for example it's a very good game i gave it a 7.5 and its fans didn't bitch about it like the similarly scored but not quite as good to the kingdom i had a lot of nice things to say about it but a lot of complaints as well chief among them the fact that it's a limited weapon and enemy variety meant the game ran out of content long before it ran out of levels to put them in bolt gun starts off hilarious and exciting and incredibly fun pairing of the ludicrous 40k and the over the top 90s style shooter there's a fucking button dedicated to yelling fanatical threats a press f to show contempt button uh you'd like that perfect go on but over the course of hours and hours i was going to say the argument has been made yet we're waiting it'll be here in a second uh all right narrative gameplay while never diminishing in quality grew more and more exhausting the further i got into it the more tired i became the more its little minor flaws began to bug me and the lower my opinion sank for me but see that's fine if you play it for an hour and you're settling on a 10 out of 10 then you play it for three hours and you're like actually i've been over nine you play it for 10 hours and you're like this is kind of a six that's fine i'd call that important information new information creates new opinions like it's this guy's insane yeah and you can you can describe stuff in review you don't have to give the entire review like how you felt at the end of the game a lot of games don't really hold up through the ends sometimes the ending makes the game even better but a lot of times it's kind of like kind of falls off a little bit maybe the last boss wasn't great or maybe the last bit kind of seems repetitive great example um i'm kind of again a minority depending on this one but uh alone in the dark 2008 has like an episodic tv show format it's got a lot of flaws not the best game in the world but for the most part it has a pretty good pacing until the last act of the game where for no reason whatsoever you have to search the entire like gta style open world area and burn down like 30 uh evil roots for no reason before you can get to the last act of the game and it's like the the biggest slog of the game but had you not played up to that point not reviewed that point you probably would have gotten a different experience had you yeah because you don't realize that's even in the game that's like the last couple hours of the game you don't get a full experience and i just i can't imagine uh looking at review and someone says like my enjoyment factor was lowering the more i played it and me going like well then you should have fucking played more of it should you and then your job would have been out of positive review don't you know that's your job that's a little positive the funding plan is just gonna go huh so this is just gonna like sour quite quickly so right it's so funny because you just i think that's what it is with the view that the you know whoever's getting mad at sterling over the over the review is necessarily saying well you should have played it more because then you would have thought it was better that seems to be baked into every single argument that's being made i think that's what it is like what's the best possible way to get a good review of the game and like if you're taking an approach that's going to give you you know potentially a negative review i don't want you to get that i think that's i think it's as simple as that self-own of the zelda fans yeah if we ignore like the frothing idiots online you have to assume that these people who are saying you didn't play much of it implicitly what they're pointing to that is you were inaccurate about something because of your lack of familiarity and you wouldn't have played more yeah yeah it's just a kind of a weird weird thing i've been noticing a lot especially with bigger reviewers like has anybody been following vaguely related but has anybody been following the uh linus tech tips drama recently somewhat yeah uh like one of the things that came up like uh gamers in excess did like a whole expose of all all these inaccuracies and kind of like biases like where they would review things that they were uh sponsored by hire and they like took a prototype very expensive prototype auctioned it by accident and they didn't get it back and a bunch of other stuff and just like continually uh misrepresenting stats and performance of very certain bits of hardware which you know thousands if not millions of people have been influenced by their their reviews of video cards and gaming hardware analysis and stuff right anyway one of the things that they kind of said i think linus said this and his kind of knee-jerk response was that uh how he needs to kind of read the room while he's doing reviews to kind of like review it properly and that's such a weird aspect it's like why would hardware performance and your estimation and analyzation of that matter at all what other people think like if anything you should practically be isolated from other people's opinions because maybe everybody else is getting it wrong maybe everybody else has got a sponsorship or isn't testing it properly if you're actually properly reviewing a graphics card and getting you know fs on high you know on medium and low that should be pretty objective and you shouldn't it shouldn't matter if everybody else loves it or hates it you should you should be able to independently verify the quality of the thing and great you've highlighted a time where it's super important because this comes down to like people buying products that are designed to function like that is the primary purpose at least with entertainment there's an angle that even if it's shit you might still like it or whatever but um you know we still have examples in history of how these things matter as far as i'm concerned like um i i don't have as many of the details anymore but as far as i'm aware tollbiscus the reason dark souls made it to pc which is always like a huge achievement because people fucking adore dark souls it was huge and so is from software on pc now um and likewise the only big significant breakdown of soma that was on the internet when it came out was joseph anderson's and he fucking had no idea what he was dealing with when he played the game and there's so many people in the comments being like oof good thing i can dodge this one like oh that would have been bad oh god money he cost fictional and that's the thing is it was done with inaccuracy and clumsiness it's weird because he's not usually like that like uh he pissed everybody off with his mario odyssey review right and he got didn't he get all of the what are they called moons or something yes something like that i think they collected every single one yeah and and that's commendable to me the fact that you would do hyper completionist and i feel like you you have a strong standing for what your opinion might be even if i completely disagree with it um but like soma i don't even think he played through it uh more than once when it's a game filled with choices which is an interesting thing to do uh when you want to do like a definitive review of it because it's just you just found it so unpleasant i guess but in any case uh this is the motive behind a lot of people and to just dismiss them as the crazies who will get a worse review if they keep complaining is so fucking bitter yeah it's just funny to me just talking about this now just thinking back to the resident evil for coverage we did and just playing for the game like four times yeah everybody was like oh and then even just putting little challenges out there that have nothing to do with the game but just see what's going on and what what i was doing this was what it was like in uh what was it on the beginning when you wanted to kill both salvadors on professional or super professional or what it was yeah and you just have to do it over and over again because you really want to do it and then realize oh when i shoot this one uh zombie man over there there's like 15 different things that can happen every time so we learned so much about the mechanics of that game by setting ourselves difficult challenges because you have to rely on mechanics and therefore it's like yeah how do i get him to rely on these liably stagger and then you're like we can't um unless you do you know this many shots in this place with this gun at this time and it's like okay and then you actually get a whole map of the mechanics in your head and if someone said like yeah but i made you hate the game all right and like um it may have you learned the game more well it may have made me give it a lower review than i had before i figured out how everything works but i don't see how that's a bad thing because you don't know how to put a new review and i mean it's replay value the idea of a reviewer is to have the general gaming population be more almost blissful in their ignorance for the real quality of a game in mechanics i don't know if i'm gonna go along with that it's almost like a like a mildly abusive relationship where you're like okay if you if you demand that i will play more of this game i'm going to not acknowledge this game as being as highly rated as you want me to rate it as it's like what is your even your purpose at that point if that's you're treating us like how dare you ask me to play more of this game i'll rate it lower because i will not like it as much the more i play it it's like what do you realize what your what your purpose is yeah it's really unrelated you can i mean that's what more or sometimes puts us up to is like hey you all play golem and stream it and it's like fuck why and then it's just all just a really good time uh overall if the other games piss but it's just just good things like even if you if you let's say your content brand's like oh man i couldn't make so much content out of this while playing the game and figuring stuff out and then make a review on top well it's crazy and then you guys made this whole super cut out of it that people were enjoying and then we covered here on efab it's like i don't know we all had a pretty good understanding of their game i think so i just just i just see positives in playing the game to the fullest at least once i don't know no negative that at all familiarity as this game would appreciate breeds contempt and while i still like bolt gun i honestly wish it were a few hours shorter so it didn't out stay it's welcome thanks for the bolt gun review i guess okay red ha that was a better showcase of how demanding reviewers spend more time with a game doesn't serve that game's interests my first few hours with a game's interest it's the consumer's interests yeah how can it not serve the game's interest though he thinks reviewer's job is to praise games not actually review them i think that's it that's pretty much that it serves a game's interest because it means that it would be easier for developers to make good patches and balances to a game if they get the most comprehensive information possible and what is working and what isn't working so i mean yeah you could even make an argument that it isn't a game's interest to get these types of reviews because then they know what to fix see and then how to make a better sequel see this happen a lot with patched games like darkest dungeon two one even those games went through a lot of iterations based on high profile community feedback that game yeah most people don't remember that but there was a period where people hated darkest engine because they added in corpses and a couple other mechanics and people weren't really on board with and it wasn't so like a lot of feedback that they finally removed corpses or they no they didn't remove and they made options still left you suck yeah you can turn them off if you want to which are you sure yeah they added as optional i believe there's there's powers that people have to like get rid of corpses what would be the point of those powers in one option in one they i in two i think they're mandatory they didn't add it as the two is like almost a completely different game at that point but yeah in one they were introduced and people were really mad there was actually i think a period when it went into the negatives in steam reviews and then they made a couple different things optional they also added like a less punishing mode and everything radiant mode or whatever was and that's back up to nine point i'm gonna i'm gonna be like i i guess throw a wrench in the conversation and say i think people were wrong to be mad about corpses though i think they're a very important part of the game and make it function and what makes it function out of my corpses but i'm losing my mind with that sanity shit can't manage it that's the whole game really important i don't i like it no no i wasn't this thing i was saying i suck that game what my ass i'll get back to it i remember darkest dungeon one i think i i named them after people in chat and i think i'll die i named one mauler and i think i had six maulers in that game i remember i had two fringes actually to play doctor i put six hundred hours in that game it's fan-fucking-tastic what about the second one the second one is pretty good very very good i might even say it's very different i it took if you play a lot of the first one the second one is gonna be very alienating i would argue the second one's better because uh there's a certain aspect that happens at least at least me playing however many hours i played i didn't probably play as much as you but there's a certain kind of just sort of stagnation that happens in the first game where you get your characters up level and you don't want them to go crazy and die or get you know syphilis and and you know rot away or whatever so you kind of like just kind of you kind of stagnate and the dungeons keep on getting harder but you don't want to go into them because then you lose everybody and and there's perma death and autosave and everything like that the second game you embrace that because it's kind of a roguelike game where you're constantly replaying and then trying again and so there's a bit more there's a bit more of a just just go ahead and do it attitude in the second game you don't stagnate as much but that's my opinion i actually think it's quite the opposite personally because in darkest dungeon one in the middle difficulty so like the normal difficulty that people will play on or radiant there isn't actually a fail state in the game you can lose runs which amounts to a loss of time but you cannot actually lose a run which means uh that's part of why the game's allowed to go as crazy on you with the rng as it is like you know it's possible for you to enter a room and for a character to die before you get a turn that is the way it is precisely because you can't actually lose a run on normal difficulties and those are really fringe cases and so like you're losing essentially time investments but it's not particularly substantial time investments at time meanwhile with two each individual run is its own separate thing so those sorts of rng swings can cost you an entire run and runs as compared to other roguelikes are really really long like that game has really long runs compared to other similar roguelikes and so you lose a massive amount of time i beat uh it was during the beta but i beat the boss once and um it was like i think a couple hours i think um versus potentially like 10 hours working on on your your best characters and and one so personally i think that it was a very difficult decision i think i i remember seeing the creators talk about again we're kind of going off topic but the creators saying like this is a very different game kind of trying to kind of treat it as two different games we took some pretty extreme measures i personally think the roguelike thing is was a as much as i miss the city building and stuff like that i think the roguelike thing definitely makes you kind of more emboldened to take risks to kind of go forward as as i played the original i was terrified of running into like a star a star creature from another plane just like immediately wiping my party that was a that was a very real thread in the first game the title of my life yeah i really appreciate their willingness to change formula in the second game and for the most part i think it went really well i think there are some fairly substantial hangups in exactly how things are put together like run lengths for example character balance is a bit of an issue and there's a few other things in terms of the mechanics of each individual run but i have a lot of respect for them pivoting and the moment to moment combat in each uh like fight in darkest dungeon two is miles better than darkest dungeon one because they learned a lot from one and what's actually really cool and this is the same thing's happening with pack the path of exile is that they're kind of treating them as two different uh experiences like you can go back and play all the dlc of one and it's still a fantastic game but two is now a different experience so if you like two better you can play two path of exile two is coming out and they're going to be running both pack of exile one and two simultaneously so if you like poe one better you can play that if you like poe two better you can play that and they're going to be both active services that they have different mechanics and different you know active dodge and everything like that so i actually like that idea where you're not just you're not replacing a game you're adding another different version of the experience that's kind of what pissed me off about the forest and sons of the forest because i feel like the forest became obsolete when that new game came out but i don't actually really like the second one as much as the first one and like nobody plays the first one anymore it'd be cool we had two kind of options they left it at one absolute yeah yeah there's probably so many examples because it added everything in yeah and it totally supporting that so many of my so many of my friends after two came out they played a whole bunch of darkest dungeon two and then went back to darkest dungeon one for a while i joke about uh i joke about over watch two as the the one sequel that was cancelled after it was released what i mean yeah the like the big selling point of that was the campaign mode that they yeah about that yeah sorry see well we um we kind of got into the sequel element that we're talking here uh twice when we uh ventured into dead space under resident evil four um whereas i think we pretty much agreed at least the three of us that the dead space remake replaced the original in a good way um in the resident evil four remake is very good but it doesn't replace the original it is different enough it's a different experience uh a different enough experience that it's what no i'd still say it's worthwhile to play the original it's just play the original that space before you play the new one yeah they're most still very yeah if you're gonna play the both of them yeah i was gonna say by the way a lot of what we just talked about is all stuff we know because of how much we've played the games and we know all the inner work yeah because uh we've said this before but like if you watch me and metal or if Theo's there as well sort of thing going into bloodborne we'll tell you some of the most specific and fine detail things that happen in that game and you'll be like good god they hate it and then you'll find that it's like our favorite game of all time or at least one of them yeah that's why you know those details yeah it was a point that you brought up earlier metal about uh when you were playing resident evil four remake these very specific challenges you put on this on yourself to and and like the benefits that come from that but me you know when we talk about the broader things that you can gain from doing the reviews as simple as playing it on normal difficulty then hard difficulty a super useful information oh yeah you only play it once you don't know that you don't have a point of reference for how the game changes depending on how hard it is and often when you play it on a harder difficulty that's when you can start to notice a game either excelling or breaking yeah you can notice buckling because the mechanical constraints the players under are more difficult and difficult to show the flaws it does and in the the world that sterling is advocating for you miss out on that uh that possibility not only that but you should be fucking thankful that you miss out on it like okay yeah exactly you you don't you don't want it you don't want that world you fools is sterling like uh tom cruise and and uh talking to no way nicole said nicole said he's like it's like you know you can handle the truth uh that's so weird we watched that recently good film yes that's a really good movie great dialogue of course i'd recommend it full i didn't hate it i felt it was a bland mediocre minimum viable product of a game but it was relatively inoffensive to me after playing it a little while i came away thinking it was dull but more or less serviceable then i kept playing i kept playing until i found out how fucking repetitive it was yeah but imagine if you hadn't imagine if you hadn't though i feel like that's isn't that even a worse point though that you realized oh if i had stopped i might have given a downright misleading yeah yeah this goes both directions like are you happy that you give misleading reviews because you don't know how familiar you would be with games hmm yeah isn't this a isn't this a great reason why you should play games longer holy shit does what i mean this this video just completely fucks itself yeah you should be thankful that i have no integrity you're like okay no no wait all right i kept playing until i found out you should uh review games and not play any of them and give everything 10 out of 10 that way the 10 out of 10 scores are protected preserved forever no one will uh never be happy that way you can put out a thousand reviews a day and you make all the fanboys happy it's like yes you gave it 10 out of 10 i agree and then anybody who disagrees it's like well what do you want i didn't play it i don't know i don't know what i'm talking about right actually play and review 10 games and then just change the visuals every single time a new game comes out of any of those reviews and nobody will notice so many much difference and the fans will be happy this is the you know everyone's happy now we did it we solved racism and yeah someone's just made me aware back in the day uh i know we've talked about this in the previous years but um and he was sacrificed right hellblade and the stealing game came out one out of 10 oh it was a game breaking bug in it and that's why i remember when i got a four out of ten because of a very rare save game bug and ijin got pissed yeah that happens the fact of the matter is when you're right you're right and how can you ensure that you won't be wrong you know a right statement regardless of how much you've played or how little you've played is still a correct statement uh-oh you're going to drift into the world of jim staley's perspective on everything i say in my review is correct because it's all subjective me oh boy i agree that it's subjective but like that doesn't make that true well it's there's a lot of things you could say about video games well at anything that is like oh that's you can't just say that's subjective if you can't yeah like as if that somehow matters to the things that i've said that are attacking your argument fucking i hate it then is why i wish they would just separate it and so we'd have an understanding of what they're talking about because this is just this person is just rambling like there's no thought process the things here that they're contradicting themselves with you'd catch that in a script normally but this just seems to be like completely just how they feel about it like there's no actual research or anything done here they didn't even elaborate on other positions like at the beginning the parts that you skipped wait uh what's in the skipped section is mainly responding to comments that are taken out of like comment sections that are insane you know like did they explore the other perspectives though like like why you shouldn't actually like why you don't benefit from them reviewing like the this way this is the best faith section of the video oh boy wow okay well i came away thinking it was dull but more or less serviceable then i kept playing i kept playing until i found out how fucking repetitive it was i kept playing until i found out it had nothing under the surface beyond the most good good review is no more accurate let's meet you did high five i kept playing until i found it's embarrassing enemy ai and laundry list of bugs i kept playing until this inoffensive job that's your job that's what you're supposed to do man at this point i would get your money i did a health inspection for a restaurant it was fine then i started checking the freezes and i found rats dead rats in the freezes i wouldn't have found them if you'd guys not complained okay what's the problem so this is good the problem is see nintendo fanboys you don't want me to review zelda more comprehensively you don't want that because then the number wise out of 10 would be like red full that's right the number would the number would be lower and that's you don't want that do you want that you want number to be bigger so in this weird this weird twisted uh uh kind of viewpoint you basically play good games less and bad games more to even out the score that's basically what what's being said right uh it's more of a this is the there's been many attempts over the years for jim sterling to shut up people who say mean things and this is the newest strategy and i've just found it absolutely baffling but you don't want me to be more honest and thorough because you wouldn't like the results it's like a threat and also isn't it's like a really bad thing to put out there that publisher that potentially uh less less than up and up publishers and developers might think like hey if we front load all of our content doesn't matter after the first couple hours because the reviewers won't even play it that's a really bad precedent to set i think i just can't get over the fact that we've we basically just had uh sterling admit that i could have reviewed a game positively that was bad and that's better just like why is i better i thought that the most important thing surely would be accuracy surely that's what you're there all the time accuracy integrity honesty that's the thing like a trifecta that people will absolutely love about videos whether or not they agree with them i wonder if there's an asylum somewhere full of people who have been broken by jim's low scores of their favorite games if only he didn't play them with breath of the wild because that was given a seven right or six seven or six something like that same thing happening again and it pisses everybody off which um you know like it's something that's worth there is definitely that can definitely be when it comes to particularly hyped up video game releases where a small contingent of people get pretty rabid about anything like lower than absolutely glowing praise and particularly get fixated on number scores yeah people can get really really really fixated on whether a game gets like an eight for instance that an eight is unacceptable because video game scores are so skewed yeah not really mad at me about elden ring yeah that definitely exists but i mean that exists for basically every game and can we not can we not let that ruin our ability to have real conversations you don't have to dignify these idiots with a response yes but by doing this kind of response you you have you have demonstrated yourselves to be very big mad about the topic yeah this is definitely an emotional response this video there's definitely a fervor especially about the zelda games recently too i remember breath of the wild i mean i enjoyed it i had some problems with it too most people i know really really enjoyed it i probably say it's a good game for sure but i didn't like it as much as much as most but the just the kind of environment around the reviews were crazy i remember pro jared this is pre pro jared controversy so that nothing to do with that i remember he reviewed it and he said like a 10 out of 10 and he said oh there's a couple making issues but they're so minor it's not even worth mentioning and i should i shit you not either the next day or the day before he had a one-on-one interview with reggie from nintendo and it was like an exclusive interview and everything like okay it's like i really can't take your reviews seriously if you're that kind of cozy with the are you going to trash their game and then i talked to reggie hey reggie i really respect your work and your games are great immediately like there's a price to honesty and that's just sort of like welcome to life it's just one of those life things but it's a reviewer thing though like if you're a viewer that's a choice you have to make or do you want to have honesty and integrity or do you just try to get paid like you have to make that choice eventually and people like that they just expose themselves it's difficult too because if you see uh you know let's say you really really like the witcher three and you got kind of cozy with uh cdpr and and everything like that like i i'm an affiliate of gog for example if gog did something really bad i would i would feel a little sting of guilt criticizing them but i probably would because i i count my honesty and my integrity more than a couple bucks of of uh everyone's while from somebody clicking on an affiliate link it's not that not that big of a deal it doesn't end my life or my career if i you know criticize them but i could see getting really cozy with cdpr and then they drop uh serapong 277 and like oh what do i do now do i violate that relationship it can really affect you your opinion subconsciously or you know directly sometimes and yeah it's dangerous it's really dangerous if you want to keep their objectivity you have to kind of you have to kind of keep your distance keep keep even people you like at arm's length mm-hmm it i've been party to some fucking dumb attempts to discredit a negative review to final fantasy 13 one of my earliest reviews to send the community into hysterics was discredited by some because i said i hadn't beaten the final boss i'd gotten to that final area i just did not want to fucking bother playing that last tiny stretch because i loathed everything up to that point and it really didn't matter to me what are you good for them well i mean then you kind of you the people are criticizing you then it's just a job it if that were in the video you know i mean like as long as you didn't fucking comment on it then what did you do because it makes me think like what did you do what did you say that pissed everybody off yeah you played the whole game beautiful one boss did you claim to a fighter did you claim that you did the whole thing did you did you talk about the story conclusive conclusively sir that's bad even though you didn't see the end of it because you just didn't do the rest of it all the way in the end you're right there man you're right there man matter to final fantasy fans who delighted in what they perceive to be a silver bullet not one of them stopped to consider that if i hated the game after 50 hours what on earth would make me turn around and love it after 51 a better understanding variant you cut like this is so simple if one hour doesn't make that much of a difference then just fucking do the hour your game reviewer but this all assumes every single person that ever says anything is like if you played it more you'd like it maybe they just mean if you played it more you'd be more accurate that's all man imagine playing bio shock infinite and then skipping the ending and then commenting on the story the ending would absolutely either make or break that story for you so critical in morons as a concession i did watch the ending cut scene on youtube after oh my god you who was in that session that was such kindness thank you jim thank you merciful i watched the clip though you oh my god oddly it didn't make me rise the skill okay okay that doesn't why did you consider that said like a victory like haha yeah dode you is like i didn't change my mind i don't know why i didn't just power through and beat the final boss but if jim's opinion was one that i sought and it was consistent like i could get some value out of a video at that review you know it's like okay at least he played 99 percent of it like i probably can deliver a good sense of what it's like to play generally but like with certain games like if you if you were to like review final fantasy seven before you even get out of midgar it's like yeah there's so much there is wait wait wait wait wait midgar is from final fantasy seven uh yes there is there is a car in the parking lot where i live and there is a license plate on the back of the car that says midgar mid g a r is that what that's from a mid god mid midgar specifically i think is from ff7 it's based on mid guard which is a norse mythology i believe yeah that was i'm aware of but okay yeah one without without without the yeah without the mystery solved yeah mystery solved now i know what that car license plate is referencing on that topic by the way uh if someone was to review bloodbones bosses and they had old hunters attached and they're playing it all and they said listen i can review the bosses i may have missed a couple at the end but i've i've got it it's like which which couple at the end it's like oh you know maria and cos and ludwig could be like you missed you missed like i can see people being fucking furious and be like whoa calm down i fault like fucking 18 bosses is that all good enough it's like kids i don't know it's not those who don't know that's just the those three three of the best bosses in the whole game yeah no there wasn't okay i was gonna make a cheeky reference and say um about the whole not playing through the end thing like uh imagine if you got a roger ebert review it's like yeah i watched about 75 of the success yeah it was all really predictable i really needed like a twist and and you know something to kind of really tie it all together i felt they're kind of kind of boring really is like there are some films or stories that are told that really don't like everything doesn't click right in until that like latter third yes it's the crescendo is the climax there's so many different ways to do it but like a lot of the times it's it's essential part of the story to see how it all ties together or get the pledge the tune and the pristine that's another one that ending there imagine not seeing the the procedures make any fucking sense if you don't watch the last dude i didn't even want to reference it but like both reveals imagine skipping out on both reveals imagine if you were playing mass effect and then you got to earth and you're like yeah i think i'm done and then you go on the internet it's like wait what why is everybody what's everybody so often asked about why are you shocked you give up a heffestas like this as far as you get just like you haven't you you're gonna review the story and you're having you know sometimes the ending might not change your opinion sometimes it might change it dramatically yeah that's always a possibility why remove yourself why limit yourself in this way there there are movies where the ending absolutely makes it there's some movies where i did not enjoy it up until the ending i'm like oh wow that makes the whole thing way better and there's movies and i won't name the names in case you ever want to watch it but there's movies where it's it was all a dream or was all in the person's mind and it completely kind of deflates the entire all the events of the film yeah you can obviously go multiple directions don't just imagine hot fuzz imagine you stopped when he first sort of gave up on the investigation went back to chilling out like so many examples the ending of sa the first sa movie you don't get to see the twist like it's just there's every movie ending twist would just be talking about a movie that fucking needs that final help we can get another review written by someone who didn't finish the game i think the outlet was ign i could be wrong it was a long time ago but it came out that their early copy of the game was busted and they couldn't play the final third regardless they published a review anyway confident okay so that could be a problem i'm fine with it if you make that clear apparently you knew that so it seems like they made that clear in that review question i wanted to check it might be something afterward right but maybe yeah just tell me just tell me yeah that's it just tell me if you said like i'm reviewing all of the bosses in bloodboard except for these ones and i've heard they're pretty good but this is my opinion of the all the other ones who be like all right you know i can't take issue with that that's fine you made it clear they played was it not people are mad at jim because he wasn't disclosing these things well it's it's so simple dude it's it's this cell the game is a seven out of ten but you haven't played more than like 10 of it i don't care right that's that's it that's as far as it goes and a lot of people will be like you know there's going to be people who'd say you'd like it a lot more if you played more there's also going to be like you the way you talk about the game it sounds like you know nothing about it you need to play more of it like those two factions exist it just seems like it'd be worthwhile to load your statements a lot with to be clear i haven't because when uh when we did the forge on it i was the one who hadn't completed it and i feel like i said like 10 times bear in mind i haven't completed it bear in mind this is where i'm at you know bear in mind this would all be subverted by or interacted by uh just calling it first impressions and that's the thing if you play that 10 percent of the whole thing that's probably what you should call that a lot of it just comes down to being clear about what you're trying to say and where you're coming from but i think i i get the impression that if press to talk a little bit more about the perspective on zelda that sterling would say yeah i didn't complete it but i i think but this is it right this is it this is my statement on that game and that's that's it and i'm done um rather than rather than admitting i yeah could be wrong could be completely wrong about a lot of things i could be wrong but you know i have limited time there are other things i'm more interested in i you know i i feel like it wouldn't have much to add a little bit of like earnest honesty can go a long way instead of just like this petulance you know i mean yeah this this is pretty this this is a strange video is some it just it you know such a sense of bitterness like i said earlier because i can understand the confusion sometimes someone would say like what's the what's the equivalent of getting to pass the tutorial or something in in bio shock versus elden ring and someone might be shocked to find out it's like probably killing margo like that's actually completing the tutorial available i i imagine some people will be like that's insane that can that took me like 30 hours it's like okay but like that's the truth i don't know what to tell you and that's just reality yeah like you have an experience anyway near what it has to offer when you've only done that i'm sorry if you have limited time if you have limited time then just play like some of those you know sony cinematic like action adventure get maybe not go to war because that's pretty long you know play and do reviews of uncharted because you can beat those in like 10 15 hours that's more suitable for that but they take on these games that actually have like extensive information and they don't do their job zelder is a hundred plus hour game you know a chunky boy i had a lot of lots and lots of streams of that game i was crazy i think i mixed up margo's wetness with is it margot in the field it's market and more got and then margo is in bloodborne yeah okay all of that yeah there you go see how you mix that up someone said margot right margot the fellow that's what you're saying at first i'm assuming you mean market right not the guy in the capital the funny thing is you'd be able to understand what i'm talking about easier if i just said yeah the tutorial boss basically the first not the the guy at the front with the horse but yeah the big big boy that everyone got stuck on but as soon as you pass him you're basically free and clear you start going real fast one thing for a content drought where nothing is worth doing oh i didn't say that he said that now i said that no good games no good games i love all games and everyone they're beautiful and i play them to completion and then review them gray you know i see him clearly i jeans and i mean at this point but i will say the one thing they did do that was actually pretty cool when they were approaching a very big game like a big replayable game or like an rpg that has like like hundreds of hours of content and they weren't able to fully analyze everything by the time the embargo was lifted which is quite often like a week or a couple days they would do this kind of cool thing which you can only really do in a written review but it was they called it review in progress where they would post an early version of the review and state exactly at what point they're up to and their impressions so far and they would update their article over time until it was a complete review and they would score at the end i thought that was a cool way of giving you an early impression is if you absolutely need to know what they think of the game so far on release date they'll give you that but then by the time that they're actually finished they have a fully fleshed out not rushed fully thought out review after they play the whole game and i think that's a cool compromise again you can't really do that with videos unless you're really small videos because youtube doesn't let you replace videos but that's a kind of cool compromise i think in that risk guard to be able to kind of work on it over time and update it as you get more of the game done he was after all nobody whined at them nobody pointed fingers nobody said they hadn't played enough did they make that clear in the video if they did then that's probably why nobody complained the difference between me and them they gave the game a high score oh that's what it was you know that you can uh be correct accidentally like you can say the correct thing for the wrong reasons and that doesn't make it okay well i'm also like don't pretend that they were in a world where as long as you give a positive review everybody will let you cycle past with like shitty reasoning you know this the toxic positivity thing has to be pushed everyone in some walks it's a real thing it does happen and uh i guess what i'll concede on is it's easier to get away with a shitty good review than a shitty bad review probably yep yeah but that gets flipped depending on the like you know like a really bad review of golem but that you change you call it bad like you'll get you'll get away with that who's gonna notice yeah i'm gonna care what is the cartoon he man right he man yeah yeah i didn't i didn't watch him at what's that guy on the left who is he he's he's very he's very um he's a black lagoon it's uh he's terrified he's a very expressive and interesting looking fella you can tell that it's he man because he's looking at him hideous oh my god oh i mean i love everything in all people apparently it's is he merman is that his name okay maybe i wouldn't have guessed that by looking at him and what's the guy on the right who's he oh i'm thinking kevin paul i don't know what's gonna be kevin uh i don't know about that beast lord or beast master or beast man is it man i think beast man yeah oh man and beast man how caring today i really like skeletor is the best character skeletor gets a fuck yo he man off is the best thing i've ever heard this podcast stands for skeletor and his cousin the horned king there's a guy called mad at arms is there as well cool i'm sensing a lot of phisto phisto is a character right phisto oh you pissing so hard pretty sure phisto is a guy in this i like skeletor because that's what it's really all about isn't it no it's not it's not really about whether or not you played the game until the end it's not about how much you played it's about how much you agreed with that we can see all that doesn't follow from being explicitly positive then does it if you have to agree then it goes both ways because you're cynical doesn't mean that everybody else is besides everything just there are so many reviewers who have such respect on this fucking site for how they may take a controversial opinion but that they will justify or they'll put the work in yeah i think they exist you know that the beginning when you write the script get your references make sure you have all your information and proof and then you get to talk about how you still have it is interesting that i mean have you have you ever once considered that you might not be very persuasive on this subject no that that might be no he hasn't thought about that but allow me to have you ever considered that let's say that we assume that your your conclusions are correct in these instances that maybe you're not going about it in the best way to convince people what you're doing is right i come up with these crazy theories the notions of what games are objectively good i could show them a 100 percent completed save file and it wouldn't make a difference i think it would i really would tell us why it wouldn't make a difference and tell us why and if it didn't make a difference then you've spent how many years on youtube unable to garner a somewhat good faith audience yourself okay my dude you suck this is so cynical they'd find something else as i point it out always well the fuck is the point of this video and fuck it why is a bother people in one argument always gotta be someone who's gonna be like eh i'm stupid and i'm going to blame you for it that's what's gonna happen i don't even have a big channel and i know that happens how long have you learned on the platform what is happening you but you learned that from just gaming as a kid like age of empires as a child people like talking shit you get thick skin from the very beginning and you just learn that's the internet there's nothing you could do before unfiltered these people are just like point was just made is like oh you know even if i was to do the thing they're asking they're just gonna be bad faith anyway no matter what then you suck you suck it like you were saying you suck ass and arguing then if you have no way of battling this problem then just get don't talk about it you're not gonna be doing it the landscape has been laid now so that there's just always bad faith it's like so what was the point of this video if if that's all the point is just there are people out there who aren't nice to me okay that's crazy can i give you an example i'm going through the my iron man video the number one criticism i had in that video like a hundred times is oh you can't compare riri to iron man because she doesn't have her full movie when my entire point is that you don't need a full movie you just need good writing you can flash someone out in a single scene so so many people said that like i wake up every morning to someone oh you can't talk about riri i'm gonna have to address it in like a podcast or a video of some kind and i'm gonna make sure i have all my references so i have a list here of all my favorite cameos and like you're gonna compare it to that make sure to be very bitter and at the end say even if even if she had a whole movie you guys would have been said anyway so but charlotte thanos both of them didn't have their own movie you know and they were both fantastic to charlotte was better in his in his um introduction movie than his own movie he was only to charlotte was great and there's a million counters to it it just yeah so i don't know i can't take this person seriously how the how the fuck are you gonna come out here with the video the the subject is people are mean to me on the internet and i don't like it when like half the premise of your channel is being really inflammatory yeah like jim is really inflammatory how do you come out in that ridiculous suit and still have thin skin like i just don't understand you you just oh because it's a replacement for a good personality what is come and talk about fat cousin i don't get it veins no vein vein all right the glasses the veins fat cousin man the glasses remind me of vein and also like i can't i can't understand how you've been almost reviewing games for professionally for most 20 years almost reviewing games is a good way to that was almost a review yeah but uh yeah just like 2006 apparently i i i know them from like all the way back in their destructoid days and stuff like that it's like been around the bush for quite a while so i don't know how you don't develop that skin early enough i've only been doing it for like seven years and i i've gotten both ways i've reviewed things poorly people have been like you just didn't understand you didn't play enough or didn't watch enough i and there's a couple instances i i streamed a game and had mildly positive impressions of it somebody bought the game on my recommendation just having streamed it for a couple hours and like i didn't like it and they like the dm means like i didn't like this game like i'm sorry and then and another one happened was like i mildly recommended a movie as part of a genre and they're like yeah i sat down and watched this with my dad and i didn't like it kind of explain yourself and i'm like what i i kind of like what you didn't know what's to explain yeah it's just very funny another recent video these people have such a warp to view of reality that they think their opinions are reality this is why they flip out over me though you know what's wrong with these bad faith comics is they think they matter a lot to them like yeah probably some guy on the internet who's wrong do you know how many of those there are with them they don't think you're disagreeing with their opinion they think you're fighting the objective truth of the fucking universe this revelation about their mindset has only really hit me in recent months but it explains so much like the amount of times we laughed at people be objective getting angry because they you can just be more accurate for fuck's sake that's all people think people think the things that they say and believe are true or accurate crazy more 11 not like damn who do you people think that they're right people don't vaguely hold opinions that they think are fucking wrong what a surprise we've gone through it so many times we're just like you know when when it's like Peter Parker is characterized as a serial killer in hammering me spider-man too people be like no he's not it's like excuse me you try to be like oh my opinion's objective it's like no no references that's ridiculous that's a that's a ridiculous you've made it ridiculous i reject it like i i refuse to engage with that i but when a hypothetical can't happen or is unlikely to happen i i just i don't take it seriously well i mean it is a relevant one like there is information about a game that you can get right or wrong that's possible i mean it can be simple things like saying yeah i really enjoyed playing uh tears of the kingdom i love the part when samus blasted that cannon that was really cool i wish stamos would blast my cannon oh yeah i mean what because she's a good shot she's really efficient with firearms and destructive devices so she'd do a good job the point being it's just incorrect information you know she doesn't appear in that game so it's not even it's not even right and what and what do you do with that it's like you can get things right or wrong that's possible yeah there's too much opinion in this review on the surface not that that's who is saying that anyone has ever seen that statement we often get that criticism oh they have too many are they too much opinions all right there was that old video of like the purely objective review it's like this is a video game you can play it with a controller oh yeah yeah yeah yeah it was very frustrating obviously the floor of the video would just be the follow that logic a little further along there's still a lot of things you can state as fact about the game but anything really yeah just just watching this just watching literally this still screenings like okay you can get up to 32 something hearts you can fight the flame Gliac boss on the bridge of Halea it takes about 33 to you know 50 shots or whatever i don't know how many but you know things like that you can actually you can well the wikis will provide you all of it you know oh absolutely you could write it actually if you researched a lot of wikis you could probably write a pretty thorough review just based on secondhand information if you wanted to be lazy about it but yeah it's interesting and you're right you're one of them will be an interesting thing to do review a game just based on thirdhand information oh yeah and then don't reveal it until the end or like a week or a month later and just be like yeah by the way this review you guys loved and truly randomize the footage too like you grab an hour of long play and then chop it and then have a randomizer pick what order the clips go in that could be really cool yeah it could be interesting this it sounds stupid to accuse a review of reflecting the reviewer's opinion too much you already let us know that was not the issue they took with you it was you're not finishing the game and you've got inaccuracies this is straightforward does that have anything to do with you but having an opinion this is this really is like just flailing about every single thought that's coming into your head as soon as the rises me wrong it is fucking stupid but we can understand the logic from their perspective you've just told them the sun is green to these you might have though you might have said the sun is green and they're like it's not green types of zelda fans a seven out of ten isn't just a conflicting opinion nothing so trivial it's sacrilegious okay yeah but when if if you're seven or ten is built on the foundations of several inaccuracies then yeah people can be like that seven is inaccurate yeah that's when stealing says and responds oh yeah i'll give it a six if you carry on okay in the matrix it needs to be stamped out burned off fucking killed on site because it's a terrified anomaly that introduces the threat chill out a little bit i buried insults this guy is okay get over it what they know to be true turning out to be false when gamers tm get mad over review schools they don't think well who else is mad here like i'm mad everyone's mad everybody their arguments through they don't consider how a logical their stated desires are or how infantile they sound they're laughing out i do i do love that it's like don't you understand you're illogical and infantile that's also those two sentences back and back how could you possibly say that you didn't watch this back you didn't risk script this a lot you just picture the person who plays a shit ton of this game checks the review says i really feel like you didn't get a good grasp of this you know play it more at least get get to the final boss like i think this is a shitty review and the game is far better than a seven and it's like do you understand how infantile you're being okay so triggered man that's the thing with a lot of criticism criticism it can always like reflect easily it's like you're so fucking mad aren't you and you're like that's that's why i brought up the re-read that that's why i brought up that example of re-read to add to this where like it just means you didn't even watch the video or pay attention because my main point is that you don't need it doesn't you know it doesn't have to be your full video a cameo can be enough a five minutes can be enough but people's like idea of criticism is just so like lazy sometimes they just don't really put any thought into it madly add a threat to their objective truth deep down they don't fucking care how much tears are the kings of my clade they truly don't they only care about what they think is real is real and they will claim anything no matter how unreasonable to chop up some onion i don't know dip that reality in gravy and shove it down your fucking throat then your throat is more gravy just so we're clear so adding cut back to this it's not about whether the game was finished it's not about nothing don't pretend like you just keep claiming that forever is cope it's not about finishing the game but it is no it's not but it is no it's not i'm telling you this is my issue right we're talking to we're talking to anyone how meta how meta is it that we're not watching the whole video while criticizing my god it's spent enough arbitrary time in the game before giving their opinion in a review that ultimately won't matter oh is that what we're going down it doesn't matter it doesn't matter guys we we did it i bingo bingo i got my bingo card it doesn't matter none nothing matters so i could do whatever i want fuck you just press delete on the video if this is on the channel at the end you know i mean yeah seriously what's the whole point of you being in your world on youtube it doesn't matter if you just say like uh you know it ultimately billions from years from now no one's gonna care about this review it's like okay i may have been mildly inaccurate about tears of the kingdom but conversely the sun will explode yeah yeah checkmate internet trolls you know the inevitable you know entropic heat death of the universe means that i literally don't have to care about anything yeah there's ultimate cop out and we'll only have the power that the fan base lends it a fan base that is as always just tiring because the fan base is fucking exhausting it's good that's the same thing i'm exercise it's pretty cool uh yeah i had it knocking about in a box a hyrule warriors box set for eight years uh discovered it by accident didn't even know it was part of the set because i was mesmerized by the scarf that's in it um and it still still works after all that time it's a nice little momentum okay the hyrule warriors the best zelda game on the switch i'm going to go back to feeling terrified i don't know if that pisses people off zelda fans let me know it has to piss oh yeah that sounded like a burn the idea is that the hyrule warriors games are better than what a very well regarded entries in the legend of zelda series yeah that's gotta piss people off motivated by the scary terry zelda fans whatever will i do well maybe i'll make another video about them yeah probably scripted this maybe maybe you'll show them how tiring and how much you don't actually care by making yet another video whining about it endlessly maybe shouting about a review for a computer game on the internet i called it a computer game about people shouting at you about a computer game on the internet yeah keep going the cycle continues that's it so by the way okay this is a waste of time that was a seriously why i feel like we've learned nothing gang nothing i just i'd never heard the argument before of don't make me review it further i will lower the fucking score i'm turning this car around i'm turning this number down turn around and they're moving for anybody and it's just like uh that's it back to win a pack did he make a single point that entire video or at least like anything lots of angry i got that yes very very angry big mad energy all this needs is like a skeletor rant at the end is like if you're if you get mad at me i'll review the next other game of four out of ten anything but that please don't that's just i i found it funny i think even it was in the same take like 10 seconds apart he's saying on one hand um what did he say uh well he says uh the fan base they're so exhausting and then like says uh the horrors is the best zelda on the switch without substantiating it and it's like dude you know you're saying a provocative thing there why do you think the fan base keeps keeps coming at all you just appreciate anything though rules for the i've noticed this oh it's just you pretending that you don't want to have the fight when you really really really like it you clearly enjoyed it more than talking about absolutely yeah he says after him over the zelda opinion and then he's just like oh you guys just won't stop will you stop seeing wacky things active on yeah the legend of zelda i mean come on don't have this opinion that um it's the jim sterling in particular is one of these people who want to say things and not get any like response to it they want to say things on the internet they want to say things on twitter they just want to put it out there and they only want to be listened to but the moment they get any sort of you know push back for it they act oh no all these people i can't believe it oh my god that's all these angry white men in the replies ah they do the whole song and dance and that's what's so shocking you would think you would learn how the internet works very early in your internet years like not i have to take it to this i think this is all deliberate this is the equivalent of splitting out the worst hot take twitter's ever seen and locking the thread this is basically the video quote of that you absolutely all the angry gamers in my replies yeah just don't say stupid things publicly and you'll be fine yeah they can't do that's not possible for i can't believe people are angry at me for saying such outrageous things i'm gonna mute this thread okay muting is muting this thread and i'm gonna let the gamer boy see in the comment like okay to tell me how so i have a channel please subscribe to this thing that's a thing and people like to do oh yeah well on the topic uh there's another video that i've been made aware of called you don't need to finish games now this one i don't think is it's less so about reviewing don't need to start games that's what i'm learning experience but maybe we'll agree with this one who knows maybe maybe it does happen every once in a while and you found let's give them a shot absolutely good stop oh i like us okay don't need to finish that game oh these colors i assume you'll agree with the sentiment in isolation you don't need to know that yes that's true yep neither for survival or yeah is anything like that yes it's it's not a good yeah it sounds very starting yeah yeah so far so good thumbs up yeah when i was a kid mario have a lot of money to buy games so this is some long ass anecdote about oh i was like this was 20 years ago blah blah when i was in thailand i didn't know they had a penis whatever but i'm not gay all right like i just don't it's gonna be this long thing and at the end it's not gonna matter well we played video games let him come yeah give him a story you don't know that it'll be pointless i'm wastey could be awesome when i was a kid we didn't have a lot of money to buy games so we rented we didn't have a lot of money to rent games often so i'd conveniently forget to remind my parents about return dates then get chewed out about late fees a couple of days later time constraints i had as a child when it came to playing games sparked a very early obsession with finishing them before the five-day period was up i had to beat that game child it was very necessary all right but now i have money so i can just keep the game and finish it later end of the video i needed to get all the secrets i needed to make sure i could keep up with the kids at school i couldn't lose to louis and his uncle at nintendo telling him how to fuck you louis i've always been the kind of guy that likes louis i guess i thought louis was chill but i guess other people don't like wow louis pretty sure he's spitting your food once when you weren't watching oh yeah i bet louis's uncle touches him oh no cheating scumbag high school was a delicious gator i didn't have a lot of money to buy games so i pirated them we didn't have a lot of bandwidth back then so i'd conveniently pretend not to know why the internet was acting so slow so you were the asshole who ruined everyone's life yeah so yeah he's not telling his truth he stole games too tell us about that this week as he said like he slowed the internet for everybody and didn't tell anybody and he also cost his parents money when he wouldn't let them games that he read did he just be like whoops oh well he's probably stealing his neighbor's wi-fi too i just have no money for this thing so i stole it i feel like this is the clean version of this backstory there's a real dark side yeah i sold the cast organs and misunderstanding of ethical pirating i had as a teenager when it came to playing games sparked an adolescent obsession with finishing them because any game would take a week to download i had to be okay all right is necessary because otherwise you might not have heard him dude you've been fishing about that for years and they're still doing it it's the first anecdote made the point man yeah but now he's explained how it went into his adolescent years this is a great story we're a minute in anecdotes hey guys i i'm sensing a theme here i don't know if you picked it up yet or not yeah i think he's talking yeah i think he had to beat that i had to beat that game i had to get all the secrets i needed to make sure i was in the know with my friends at school and on skype i couldn't risk getting spoiled on the new mass effect or be the one person in the call everyone had to do oh man it just goes to show you how old it goes to show how old we're getting what it's like oh when i was a kid i when i was an adolescent i didn't want to be spoiled on the new mass effect and i'm like oh fucking christ am i getting old i thought you were gonna say like a like majora's mask or some shit he's like no the mass effect game it's like mass effect two and three i didn't want to get spoiled they're like oh god guys i think i'm getting older see if gary would he be like spoiled on the new pac-man don't come no the new pac-man 2 the revengening it's like when you see these it's like when you see those threads like oh the vintage xbox 360 i'm like oh shit oh god i remember playing sonic on 360 in 2006 those were the days spoilers for i needed to make sure i was caught up so i could watch those videos on the games i wanted to play i wanted to be included i wanted to belong hey man this is a two minute stop story but he's broken lonely and he wants to be luis how much it seems like your uh video game experiences were determined by the people around you yeah seriously is that kind of a shame isn't it yeah i'm definitely one for like i really want to get gears of war so i can play it with people but i don't think i ever was like i've got to get gears of war on the day so i can complete the story i can fit in luis i waited to play it without me luis and his uncle are having fun and i don't get to have fun half the fun video games are them being immersive and you need to have your own unique experience with it and then you can share it with others but like this whole idea that like i don't know i feel like this guy damages his his his playthrough with these games well his his relationship with gaming is a bit yeah that's what i was there it seems like he's ramping up to a point right about how he lived i doubt it he was conditioned to beat video games and play them to an obsessive degree very quickly and then he probably didn't get the most optimal experience i'm guessing that's what he's ramping up to it's funny there's actually a good point in here but he's kind of missing two other really viable options one is uh i mean he's saying like either rent a game or piracy it's kind of like a pretty weird binary there's also lending people games like if you have any friends you can you can borrow a game for a week and and try it out and give it back to him or what i what i did even when i was working a lot don't break that job especially like you know get shot off the game stop they actually had a pretty good thing going i was able to buy a brand new game at a full price beat it in a week and trade it in for like 40 bucks and that was that that made the next game considerably cheaper and if you just kept that up really fast you could you could actually get new games for not nearly as much money they had cool deals like that for proper gamers i know you did a lot of like trading and use games and stuff yeah if you do it quick enough that they'll actually give you quite a bit they used to at least give you quite a bit of money back well i mean you can you can't bring up the discussion of how like use games in the the way that game stop does things can be uh kind of bad for the uh for the industry yeah i mean obviously after the first sale the the publisher gets nothing well it's just game stop kids make a lot of money meanwhile you can have a lot of people playing a game and then the developers don't get any i mean it's part of it's part of what ended up essentially prompting the massive massive massive overstretch that was the xbox one that's true that was that was true that was all fuck yeah mass effect three had that didn't the online pass where the only the new games had the online pass and there was like content there was uh yeah they had like that they quite often have like a one a one time code even by the time mass effect three came out the you had like a pre-release code that you could use one time to get that whole other character and then hold their story so that that was an issue but it is it is a product so there is no like legally no reason why you couldn't resell it so as well but then you they'd argue there's no argument you can make really against us doing online passes and stuff it's a product that we're selling so we're gonna do it that way i guess i'm just i find yeah like the the whole use game ecosystem of like game stop trading a man over and i'm pretty short total biscuit talked about it i in fact i think i was one of the ones that was a little bit more controversial for him was it because that's that's how many people were able to play new games so well yeah because nobody would argue principally against the idea of like lending games to your friends that seems totally reasonable and normal and as expected but an ecosystem of use games being traded in over and over and over again and a middle man making a lot of money while none of that goes through to the developers when it feels like it ought to yeah yeah if it's if it's kids in elementary school giving it to their friends to borrow that's one thing but when it does become like a part of the market itself for its sustainability it's an issue i know that xbox one tackled that head on and they got completely roasted yeah and then sony responded with that like here's how to trade games on ps4 and he's like hands them a game cartridge thanks you know this is like a really cheeky response video well yeah i mean it's such a mess i made it yeah the ps4 decimated the xbox one because of that it was such a huge hit to them even though the xbox would be a real the xbox one has dealt permanent damage to xbox as a brand they've they haven't recovered from that and that was back it was 10 years ago that was 10 years ago it was a decade ago and i still remember that shit came out everyone rightfully lost their fucking minds but then there's the the options of like yeah dlc is bound to your account if you really liked you know dragon age or mass effect you might want to get the dlc's when they come out that's that's income that developers can work on in the in the so it isn't it's certainly better than piracy and there's i would say it's certainly better than pirating the game altogether is is buying a used copy or lending it from a friend or whatever even though yeah technically the developer after first sale the developer doesn't get anything college was a super different story i had money to buy games and after an entire childhood of not being able to took a victory lap through the three games i didn't really leave a lot of my bank account those days so i'd conveniently tell myself it was only another week until my next paycheck and chewed myself out when the bills came around later the buyer's remorse i had as a college kid sparked a deep-seated obsession with finishing games i bought these games and i needed to squeeze every dollar out of them because they burned a huge hole in my wallet i had to this one's different though this is three this is three rows the other one's yeah it's a plural that's why i had to beat those games but you have so much more time because you just own it forever now so you don't have to like and i don't know about you but uh at least in console games obviously when you're kind of bound to them forever with steam you know like their parasites on your steam account but uh with console games i used to keep my favorite games i would just keep a copy at deus ex human revolution because i wanted to play it and revisit when i replay value yeah well yeah you did it because you did it because you had to beat that game i beat those games i needed to make sure i didn't spend my money for no reason i couldn't bear to look at my shelf of games and see this huge backlog of frivolous spending i couldn't stand the idea of my friends making you're lying to me you would never you'd never be serious about it two and a half minutes about his shitty budgeting like his shitty budgeting all of us here i'm sure had a library of games where we would look at them and be like oh shit i still haven't played that yet have you ever seen it i'm looking at it right now well yeah i mean i'm talking about back then not right pre-steem every one you mean dude even my fucking grandma would have one right now that's just everybody you get given games that you're never gonna play but uh back then you know a list of 360 games for example you'd be like oh shit yeah i bought that one in the bargain bin i never played it huh i don't think we were having an existential crisis looking at the fucking folder being like oh god you guys don't understand you go to the cafeteria and you're like hey man if you've beaten uh gotten to the reaper in mass effect too you're like oh no i'm still i'm still in the act too as like oh oh like walk away and like don't make contact then louis makes one of you i wanted to validate myself well maybe that's the problem um maybe that's the problem i mean the maybe the foundational issue here is that the way that you are seeking personal validation isn't a healthy or like virtuous thing right we haven't gone to the big argument yet well the dragon age armor in mass effect too yo i remember that shit that was really cool wow i assume rax's point is that it's not gonna be about whether you finish the game about something and more deep in your psyche oh yeah purchases had a purpose oh but doing youtube videos incredibly different situation what i had money i had drive i had passion i wanted to talk about all kinds of thoughts and it's not going well i games i didn't have a lot of time on my hands so i'd conveniently forget to do my homework and ignore my regimen then mentally self-destruct later oh that's not good your life seems like you need to reevaluate some of your choices budget and mental care that's it this is the desperate need for approval i had as an adult sparked a consuming obsession with finishing games before i could do it do it say it put on the street again do it already you have a problem put it in a thoughtful powerful way i had i needed a scour for every detail i needed to make my writing so airtight so on the mark no one was going to make fun of me i had to stay ahead of the curve metal he had to finish those games he did he did do i would we pick that up again metal ironically this video makes me not want to finish this video yeah oh my goodness guys sucks and year after year with every failure to accomplish what i had set out to do at every stage of my life i'm a complete failure me i'm alone tell me what your bum life like what is this is this the 20 minutes you skipped the last video the trick session would turn to guilt because if i didn't finish the game what was the point of spending all this time on it the money the bandwidth dude you got some i don't know man to figure out like yeah you do have things to figure out i remember when i was young and i didn't you know prioritize things in my life but you know you get over that hopefully eventually maybe ideally i don't know i can think of plenty of games that i enjoyed thoroughly and i didn't finish plenty of gta's i didn't finish i don't think i ever beat skyrim because i'm too busy fucking around like you know i never beat skyrim yeah i bet so many people yeah i bet so many people just fucked around and never actually finished i didn't care how it ended i'm i didn't care about the story and it's their story's fault that i never cared going for it legit i completely agree with that maybe like 10 of the books that people often have on their bookshelf are the ones that i actually read they're like a huge amount of books that people buy go on red yep what's what is this definitely a start for that like this is pretty common it's kind of weird that it's out the way that it's being presented here as like a sort of this strange obsession that developed throughout your life it sounds like about how no problem with this guy for sure yeah but think about how many kindles you'd have to buy to fill up a bookshelf that would take way more the denial how could i run do you not like physical books rags that sounded like a what sounded like a how did you pull that away from my god no how did you like what's talking about space efficiency you know storage and whatnot that if you're on a kindle you don't have to worry as much about storage space no no the opposite think about how many kindles it would take to fill up all that space it'd be it'd be nonsensical with books yeah with books you could do it you know and i wouldn't want a thousand kindles on a bookshelf i would want the books that looked nice yeah make made me appear only appear well yeah well right but in reality the bookshelf always look good i think what you want is that they have like a lettering that when you pull the books across it spells out i had to read that book i had to finish my homework i had to beat the shelf i would respect this video a lot more if this is all built up to i have to finish this intro i don't think you have to tell them for that i'm writing this video from an insane asylum that's where i ended up because if i didn't finish the game what was the point of spending all this time on it the money the bandwidth the denial the fun you had along the way of course because that's what gaming's about bro yeah but i mean that's a that's a life lesson though rags it's not about the destination it's about the journey that's a that's a hard one no it's about the bandwidth like what the throw it is guy it's not about the destination it's about the bandwidth it's about the bandwidth you consume and steal from your parents along the way fucking up the wi-fi i want to my parents money can i waste in my vain pursuit of playing video games i'm just i am a i'm a good son sorry to run a successful youtube channel if i wasn't covering the newest game within a week of it coming out how can i call myself a fan of these series is or talk how can i call myself a gamer series series series i don't know what happened there i think that series is also plural isn't it seri you just say series for plural yeah seri seri through the two eyes yeah talk to my friends about games if i never finished them how could i justify the thousands of dollars full minutes see some people think a game of life is an easy life but this is proof that it's one of the most difficult existences gamers really are at the runtime gamers are oppressed by their friends by their parents by college by louis i loose and is fucking trouble it yeah i'll probably roll the shoulder louis is like that the ghost and blind manner just hovering over his shoulder louis please i'll finish them some sander i swear i know this is a big old tangent but looking at this uh still frame unlike narrow straights in japanese cities like a vibe they kind of yeah they are especially with all their signs the neon and everything. It's like a really, it's, it's a cool, really cool. I like it. The end game Ronin scene. They had that same vibe to it with the tight narrow streets. Well, because this is the Yakuza games, right? Yeah. It's like a Kyoto and Tokyo and stuff. And it's actually funny because it's probably more just true to life because this is just an alleyway, but you get into games like you don't realize just how scaled up GTA is because those, they have to make the lanes wider so you can, you can dodge your car around other cars easier. You don't realize just kind of like a normal size, you know, proper to scale alleyway would be like it. Probably be pretty close to this actually. Good point. One of my favorite games is Shenmue and it's got terrific world design. It's very authentic Japanese neighborhood that you start off and it's really cool to just explore. I would say it's like a super fun game, but the mechanics behind it are kind of incredible for the time. Like you can actually, every single NPC has a schedule and like they'll actually, I followed this one guy. I think it was like the burger stand guy or something like that. He closed up shop, walked to the store, zoned into the store, grabbed some groceries, then zoned out of the store, then you can follow him back to his specific apartment. He has one specific apartment he goes back to just like the detail of every single NPC in the day is really, really cool. He doesn't just walk around the corner and then there. It is actually nice when you search for those details and they pay off. Is this subtitle here an attack on the stealing video? It was a recent one. Bent on my digital library. If I hadn't touched more than half of it, what was the point? What was my motive? Why can't I stop? I'm sorry. What's happening? I can't fight with stealing anymore. This guy needs meds, man. I don't know. What did I say to you guys? Like, can I truly review film when I haven't seen all of them? All of the films? If I haven't seen all of the film, how can I begin to talk about the film? I don't know. You better just, I don't know. Jumb of a brush. Jumb of a brush? Jumb of a brush. Jumb of a brush. Aim for the bridges. Feeling this way. So eventually one existential crisis after another, you start learning a lot about yourself. The differences between who you are naturally. By the way, Theo, is this not your favorite video essay of all time right now? I'm so checked out, dude. I'm gone. That's great. Yeah, I love this. I hate it. Nothing for four minutes. Absolutely. The art style of this game, though. Which game is this? This is Fire Emblem. Oh, wow. Nice armor. Three houses, which I didn't complete. You have much content. Did you have an existential crisis? I know. That's not, well, you know, only for a little bit. For a day, it was pretty tough when I realized. What did Lewis think about you not finishing that? He's pretty disappointed. I mean, you spent 80 bucks on that game. Don't look in any mirrors. Second, you go to sleep after a night of not completing a game. He's just sitting there, waiting, looking at you. I like the idea that you just end up in this horrible nightmare scape. You know, like. There's Lewis. You better lock your doors, bro. He's not away, and then he's just there always. So the quarter is nice. Now we got you in the shadows. Can't look in any mirror until you beat the game. The ghost of unfinished games past, you know, just like a modern Scrooge tale. You have dabbling back in that game. OK, I'm sorry. OK, it's me. I can go recording lately. And let me tell you, you can say so much in four minutes. Like, yeah, you can get so much done in four minutes. Well, imagine that this whole section was grow it up. I always felt like you have to finish a game. And that's it. That's a little. Maybe if you feel like it, you can include a little bit of stuff to back that. Well, how can it be 20 seconds? Complain about about a long, long. How can you do that, Mola? I just did. You saw how. Wow. No, you do it again. What? Again. If I did it again, I'd be much longer. You could have reviewed Ant-Man and the Lost Quantum and you're in four minutes. You could have. Yeah, just said it. You just say it's bad. Just say it's bad. I did say it right at the end of the script. I said, Ant-Man bad. If you want to watch that part alone, that's fine. There you go. You said not great, right? I think you said, like, not great. Pretty not great. Yeah, something like that. Pretty not great. Ant-Man is a six out of 10. External factors contributing to who you've become. I've done a lot of thinking, figured some of it out. Have you? If you've ever experienced something like those scenarios for my own life, I have something important to tell you. Here we go. You don't need to finish that game. What is the time period of this game? And what is she wearing? They're in, like, a castle, but she's wearing glasses. She's a modern designer glasses, yeah. And look at her. She's got random, like, pink and white braids mixed. What the fuck is happening in anime? It's anime. Yeah. Anime was a mistake. True. The question is so obsessed about nowadays. People gatekeep and invalidate each other's opinions based on how far they made it go. Ah, see, so it was born in the world. Come on. It was all relevant there, because he was talking about his own sort of troubles when it came to being part of the conversation. And now he's saying that part of what influences people is gatekeeping. So it all was relevant, important information. I feel the opposite. I feel like we just found out the true motivation for this video. Some people claim that you don't have a good perspective if you haven't finished the game. It's like, oh. Playing them, being up to date on a long-running series seems to be more important than caring about its trajectory, its quality, and the conditions it was made in. Are you sure? You reckon? You think so? Is? You really think that? I'm going to press X to doubt on that. That's a game. I don't know about that. That's a lewish thing. How often is it that if you gave a perspective on, well, I mean, tears of the kingdom, right? This relevance. Like, oh, have you played The Legend of Zelda? The Legend of Zelda 2, Link's Adventure? The Awakening? The Awakening? The Link's Transitioning. The Awakening? Yeah. And then Breath of the Wild, Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, all of those games. How often does anybody actually got to interrogate you on how many games and series you played? You know? I think that's happened to me, like, about never. And I'm pretty entrenched into these sorts of spaces. I'm going to be interrogated. It's like, hey, have you played this one of the series? No. Oh, OK. Anyway, we went along. Oh, yeah. So yeah, I guess we'll talk about something else like humans do. Talk about the one you did play. Oh, that was one of those songs that was on Windows XP that came with it, wasn't it, like humans do? I don't remember. Wasn't that Pimball game? That was one of the games that was on Windows XP. Yeah, there was Space Cadet. Yeah, Space Cadet Pimball. But I think that bundled within the Windows XP, like music player, there was like 10 or so songs in there. And I think one of them was like humans do. Breathe in and out. Breathe in and out. Afraid of missing out on the real impact of a sequel, they'll prevent themselves from playing it until they beat the games leading up to it. Well, but that can be valid. That's not, exactly. That's not necessarily. I wouldn't recommend you play God of War or Agnorog without playing the one before that. Well, yeah, exactly. Because it's contextual. Continuity. And one, you know, like some games present themselves as essentially being, again, with Zelda, right, you can jump into any game and you don't really need to know what happened in any of the other games compared to a serialized narrative, you know, franchise. And even without the Final Fantasy. Even without that, you know, you might want to be like, yeah, you know, I kind of don't want to play Dark Souls 3. I want to play Dark Souls first or even Demon Souls. I want to go through a chronology. I would recommend it. Maybe just see how the mechanics upgrade. That's what you should do. There's a lot of reasons why you would want to do that. Exactly. There's a lot of earnest reasons why you would want to do that beyond the pressures of society. Like Devil May Cry, I always remember loving the third one for the mechanics and like all the weapons and like abilities that you can blend together, but liking the aesthetic of the second one because Dante was older, a little bit more mature. I didn't want to see him as a teenager. So it's hard to get like the right blend sometimes. I would just never recommend playing three then one for Dark Souls because your expectation is going to be all backward while coming from one to three is basically what everyone did and it was designed with that in mind. So if you, you know, if you was like, you can just play three anyway. I'd be like, yeah, yeah, you can play three anyway. That's fine. Just saying. It's also valid to not do that. Really quickly. Which one do you recommend? Part of the way. What was that? Blood, Dark Souls, Bloodborne and the third one. Those are the three. Well, Moller would recommend some outside of Dark Souls 2. Two is the best from what I hear. You should know. No, Rags, stop. Only play two. It was supposed to be a friend. Rags. Well, I even heard it was the best. EFAP. It has the best hitboxes. Yeah, the best lighting too. It's funny. I can give you an example. I've watched your reviews on Dark Souls 2 and I've never actually played the Dark Souls games, but I understand gaming enough to understand that hitboxes and the mechanics involved are essentially like they're really critical to a game's like function. And the fact that those things can just be completely ignored when someone's reviewing it is insane. The hitboxes and DS2, the fans of the game just call them fun boxes, because you never know what's going to happen. Fun boxes. Fun boxes. I'm going to write a four hour essay saying hitboxes are implied. Start with the first five minutes of the video should be about your childhood trauma. Yeah, exactly. I had to dodge that hitbox. People are so afraid of missing out on the real impact of a sequel. They'll prevent themselves from playing it until they be redeemed. I feel like there's a broader conversation to be had about people feeling like they're missing out on the big relevant cultural moments. Yeah. I feel like it's a completely separate conversation. It is. It's a separate one, because it extends beyond video games and whether or not you've completed them. I think it just stems from people's desire to be part of the conversation always no matter what. I would say it's even probably more. That should happen organically. You don't want to force that. When it comes to Dark Souls. As well, there's the sense of should you be playing it with any information or not. And a lot of people will tell you you shouldn't. They'll be like, well, fuck you. I can play it on your own. It's like, no, no, no. I'm not saying you shouldn't, because I think it's the best way to play. I'm saying there's an experience. You can only get doing that. And once you don't do it, you can't get it. Yeah. It's like why I tell people, whenever they say I'm lost in a video game, I'm like, well, maybe kind of cherish the fact that you can get lost in a video game. Because man, there are eventually there will come a time where you will never get lost in that video game again. And that is not an experience you will ever be able to get back. And that's the thing. If someone says, like, I hate playing video games, I was like, okay, okay, fine. You know, everyone has their preferences, but being treated here like an obsession that's killing everything. All right, calm down. That's ruining lives. It gave me trauma, damn it. I think a theme with these two videos is people's strange relationships with video games and like how different everyone's can possibly be. Yeah. A little bit. I find that really strange, because for me, it's like you have to find a way, especially if you're a lifelong gamer, it changes over the years. You have to find a way to like make sure that you have a healthy relationship with games. Like I was addicted to League for the longest time and I needed to get the hell away from that. And like acknowledging that. And Arcane pulled me right back in. No, no, no. Arcane. We're shout out to Arcane. I really love that show. But no, no. It's just just balancing it. It seems that the the end point of that big story should have been. And then I realized who gives a shit. I would really actually like that if he brought that out, but no. Well, no. It's going to occupy the next 15 minutes, I guess, of just making the point who fucking cares. How to do the thing again? We'll probably finish it with that. With Lewis, right? Changing the name of it. The one that just stood out to me was like, Lewis Party Seven. I didn't even check the chat. I didn't even know how to do that. I think they made Seven's Lewis Party. The first six Lewis Parties were really good. You had to expect they'd make it Seven. Yeah, just it made sense. I almost want to start keeping a tally of how often video game video essays to tell me something I don't already know. Or like it isn't already very apparent. You guys should have a checkbox like for these things, definitely. Just like ready any time you go into it. I don't know about you, but Mark Brown told me about Mara's jump. I had no idea. No, we didn't. That was the thing. Well, what was it? Yeah, that's the meme. The meme. Like you just wouldn't tell us. Damn it. Tell me the secrets, Mark. I was leading up to it. We're so desperate to be a part of the wave. We're insistent on buying this video about sorry. I don't fucking know. Let's figure it out. Let's go. Dude, you don't think out of your pocket. You don't. This is J.C. Vasquez. You don't need to finish games. All right. You don't need to capitalize too, but here we fucking are. So let's carry right along. Oh, my God. What? God damn it. That actually sounds bull. We are five minutes in. I mean, you're right. You don't need to capitalize. I'm covered in fur because I'm a dog. I don't think you're appreciating the storytelling here because like in the beginning of the first five minutes, he was saying like, I need to finish games. But then at five, like around the four and a half minute mark, he was like, you don't need to. That's that's a setup and a payoff. This is storytelling. This is art. I'm sure that this is leading us somewhere. I'm sure that this isn't a waste of time. J.C. Vasquez will prevent themselves from playing it until they beat the games leading up to it. We're so desperate to be a part of the wave. We're insistent on buying the new thing and beating it as fast as possible. So that we're writing. I was going to say, like, yeah, I guess that would be bad for anybody who only plays games for the cultural aspects. Those aren't gamers then. Like, those aren't like, I don't give a fuck about the culture. Those are poeple. I like gamers. Yeah. Like a couple of times with the fact that you're not actually interested in games for their own sake. Yeah, man. Very top. And the truth is, this is a reality we didn't necessarily force ourselves into. Some of us still haven't forced ourselves into that nature of business. I get the feeling my childhood wasn't unique. Even if you didn't rent games, I'm willing to bet your parents or whoever bought you video games weren't gung-ho about it. Even if they loved games themselves, they were also hopefully thinking about other aspects of your development. So what you have. Yeah, I remember when I was in my room and my dad burst in and he said, you're going to fuck that bear and fall their skate. And I said, yeah, yeah, yeah, what the fuck is he rambling about? I didn't get any of that. What was the point of that? So it sounds to me like he said, hopefully your parents didn't just give you video games and ignore you in all other aspects of life. This is like. Is that what happened to him? Is that why he's so fucked? I don't know. Because he was saying like, hopefully they explored other aspects of life with you. It was like, yeah. Yeah, you know. Yeah, dad came in and said like, GC, are you going to finish fucking Sonic right now? You better finish that game. If not, I'm going to get fucking Lewis right now. He's going to send it to you. That's it. Are you Lewis? Oh God. Locked in a room. Trying to finish that game before the deadline. Had to play from a very young age where top games need to be finished before we deserve to have another one. Oh, what? Through my base parents. I so not really. Well, my parents didn't fucking understand video games. So yeah, exactly. They're not going to be telling me you got to beat Bowser the Mario before you can have the next Mario. They're trying to teach you a lesson about perseverance. I feel like the more common example is you're just not getting another one for a while. This is the one that you've gotten. So yeah, that was $60. Or I guess back then 50s or whatever. Well, I guess now because we're old disgruntled old men on our porches yelling at the new gamers. Yeah, back then it was $60. The thing is rags in good old Australia. If you went to EB games is more expensive than you go to Big W or Target to buy a video game, by the way, in Australia. Just in case you didn't know that. I didn't know that. Back in the day, often video games that were new would cost like $109, like in the mid-2000s and stuff. It's fucking crazy. They actually haven't gotten that much more expensive over here. Technically, it seems. You really had to commit. Exactly. It's just like, yeah, that's just expensive. You've got to get as much out of it as you can. Yeah, it wasn't about beating the games. It was just about like, it's some movies if you ask your parents about it. Well, TV shows like you don't get another one straight away. The replay value. You've got to eat your vegetables before you get dessert. It wasn't like that. It's just the game. It costs a lot of money. So you've got to get as much out of it as you can because you're not getting another one for a while. Yeah, your parents are like, this is expensive and there's this element of don't make quick frivolous decisions on purchasing. Really think about what you're going to buy before you buy it. Which is not a bad lesson to learn. No, it's traumatizing. Well, you must beat the Bowser. That's why I gravitated towards fighting games because it's especially if there's like, you know, it's a solid game. Just replay value for years with that. Like how many people played Smash Bros. for years? Oh, yeah. Millie was... Millie is a legend. I was just saying the amount of money. Millie! Especially when not knowing exactly how to unlock all the characters and so the surprise of doing different things and being like, oh my god, another new person. New challenger. Yeah, he had a controller. The mini-mode games. I would spend hours trying to beat those mini-mode games where they'd give you some weird handicap with the computers or something and that there's so many different modes that you can mess around with. Just replay value is something you should look for in all the games you play. It's kind of an interesting phenomenon that's being described here because the more money that I was able to make to just buy games, all that happened was, yeah, I just didn't beat as many of them. There were some that I bought that I didn't complete at all. It's just pretty normal, but it seems like it almost got carried through here of like, holy shit. Like I, you know, I've got to beat every single fucking game that I buy. Which is, it's so strange. Is that actually like a problem that people have? No, it's not. I would refuse to believe that the average area of his generation knew what it meant to complete these games. I was kind of expecting this to be about obligate completionists. If you've ever met anyone like that who they're like, I have to do everything in the game. Yeah, perfectionist. Like I have to get every achievement I have to find and do. Yeah, forget that. Yeah, so those people are insane. Yeah, how many hundreds of pigeons are in GTA IV that you have to shoot? Screw that. Finding bottles and stuff all over the city. Forget that. I'm trying to drive and like crashing the things. It's, I don't know. Or in the case of renting, there's a finite amount of time we have with this game and our limited understanding is we may never see it again when the time is up. It's probably why kids are so good at video games. Beating games was our job. Yeah, right. I'll fucking get out of the video game. What the sake? Dude, this guy's got a really limited view on like childhood. Not everyone's talented. It was like yours, dude. That's a chill out there for a second. It was our job. It was our job. What? You know, I don't know if it's controversial, but a lot of kids suck at video games. Absolutely. I'm sure I sucked really the ass of the fucking like a lot of games when I was younger, but thought I was great. You have a lot of time to invest in them, but you generally suck because you're a kid. But the thing was, you weren't very good, but you didn't know any better because you weren't buying in like in the sort of landscape that we're in now where it's very easy to sort of compare how good you are to other people. Yeah. Can you imagine that? Well, dude, everyone had that moment when they thought they were great in the video game, checked out the best person out of them, and they were like, oh my God. For the first time, you stepped online and all of a sudden, oh shit. I need to get my shit together. I got it recently. Yeah. Also, they're doing terrible things to my mother. My first my first proper TV, like Agent Out of Flat Screen TV was because I couldn't see anyone in Call of Duty or just getting murdered left and right. Just couldn't get a single kill, so I had to get a proper TV. But yeah, you live and you learn. And I don't even know what this is assisting overall as a point, but I guess we're proud to find out. Doing it well, we'd be rewarded with more of them. And school was where we could show our efforts off. Knowing more about a video game than someone else when you're 10 years old. I mean, we talked about everything in my school, not just games. Yeah. Okay. Old is like being Christ reborn in the minds of others. Calm down. All right. Jesus Christ was born? What? The social currency of the millennial childhood is that of a video game. Holy shit. Children, it makes you the center of attention for a week until the rest of them catch up to you and you raise them on to mount the... You know, you didn't have to share so much. I'm just saying. Like, oh, but... What if you were the kid that was getting bullied for playing video games? Like, hey, hey, Jimmothy, did you play the... Did you finish that game? It's like, no, no. I don't need... What are video games? I don't know. What are video games? I've heard of those. It's like trying to make this all sound so much more grand and weighty. And personal. Yeah, then... Making it so emotional. You almost really want just a normal, like, down to earth video to just be like, we all played a lot of games and sometimes you get a sense that you really need to beat them, you know? It does seem like a dramatization of just justifying that he doesn't finish all games which is fine. I don't finish most of the games I play. Yeah, nobody holds the perspective that you are obligated to complete every single game that you buy. Like, that's not a perspective people have. He threw in that one tiny bit, a little bit ago, about how people expect that review when you've reviewed them. Like, oh, oh, oh. Get into that. Go ahead. Because that might have been the motive for the whole video. When you've reviewed them, yeah. That's a different conversation. Yeah. Yeah, I agree with the premise that you don't need to finish a game to enjoy it. There's plenty of games I've enjoyed that I haven't finished, but if you, is he going to now pivot to the review? I don't know. Is that, yeah. I don't know. For fear that comes as I find it more interesting that I felt I had to finish them because Lewis would give me a spanking. All of this is going to be irrelevant to that conversation. Yeah. It should be a nice time if that's what we're going for. This is like pure pressure stuff. Yeah. Olympus, welcoming them as your fellow gods. The nice lesson our parents were teaching us about valuing our possessions. Also reinforced this idea we were getting at school that beating games was cool. Like Sunny D in the fridge and McDonald's every day cool. Oh, I thought that was like a bunch of rappers. Sunny D in the fridge. I don't remember. I don't remember Sunny D in the fridge. Something like how this hasn't been addressed. So let's address it. Completing a game is a task you set yourself. Like when you play a game, the game is a task. Completing the game is completing the task. People like to not leave things unfinished, like naturally. Well, it's spoken like a true robot. I guess you never had a childhood. Yeah, I guess. Sure, whatever, man. Because me, I completed a game and then I'd come into school welcomed by Lewis first and then everyone else as a king, a god king. Yeah. Okay, man. Sure. How many people, the hallways parted. Everyone got on their knees and bowed to you. Dude, did you actually do Super Mario Sunshine? It's like, yes. I tipped that box upside down. I finished Mario and just pussy was dripping everywhere. I wasn't even led into my friend's house until we compared gamer scores. You know, exactly. Yeah, there was that club where you could only get in if you had 100,000 game of school. There was a special room in the back for the million game of school people. Oh, good days, good times. If there's one thing I know the games industry is good at, it's finding ways to turn children and teens into loyal consumers. I mean, generally it's like the goal of the game. Yeah, that's all the creation. Yeah. Yeah. We want them to buy our stuff and then keep buying our stuff. No, it's just this. Particularly. I remember the famous Steve Jobs speech where he's like, nah, you don't need to get the next iPhone. It's fine. In the late 90s, early odds when I was a kid and yes, I am nearly 30. Looks can be deceiving. Game companies were already nearly 30. What is that ad? I don't know. I guess he was more to say that he looks good. There he goes. All right. It's like, yeah, sure. Okay. It's also a weird choice to use previous footage from another one of your videos while you're doing voiceover, but the voiceover doesn't match your lips. It's kind of weird. I'll allow him a pass. He's had a lot of trauma. Oh, right. Realizing on the way I played games, games with obtuse progression, games with secret levels and new things to discover, and games too big to finish in a rental period where they're red and butter. These were ways to keep players renting or convince them to just buy and the message Sorry, there's a lot of content in that game. I don't even know what to say about this. What do you say? Yeah, there's just also doesn't that doesn't make a lot of sense. The the copies are bought by a say blockbuster or whatever. And then they must have to buy realties or something for every single like rental that they do. Like how they buy it. They buy it once. The the company gets one copy sold and then blockbuster can make money forever. Like I have a good example of that. Like I bought I rented Chrono Trigger way back in the day and I really liked it later on. I bought it. That's fine. But I don't think it's like some conspiracy. It's like I have them rent until they can finally buy the game. Bill, you guys would verbally slap me if I said like I've been thinking a lot and I noticed a lot of games have like secret levels or collectibles or big levels or sort of like difficult levels. And it's an attempt to really just make you play the game a lot more. Like yeah. Okay. And it would be like so this is the beginning of your thought. Right. Like you've got way more to say. Please. You should do a lot of value basically to beg their parents to buy them the new crash bandicoot or the new Spyro or the next Banjo 2e and no I don't want to rent anything new and going to like it. But what I think about Banjo 2 was the same role but he said the next Banjo 2e. The next Banjo 2e, yeah. Oh, maybe that's what threw me off. Yeah. That's a strange thing to say. Don't think they expected was for the kids to dangle what they knew in front of each other's faces to use the fact they had games and knew a lot about them as a form of social status or maybe they did. Okay. I don't know what's happened. Are we done with that? Was that like a conclusion? What was the point of that? Now the actual video is beginning. We're seven and we're seven and a half minutes into a 19 minute video and I don't think I've learned anything. Dude, his personal trauma. That's all of the foundations. I think it's not for show like an ad from the 90s. World time's a year. Six great issues. Plus, six three. Dude, that's no way. That's another time. That's twice the power for still 15 minutes. Whoa. Go now. This is Timmy. Timmy knows how to get the first newest video games first. But now someone else is his course, Timmy. Dude. Is it Louis? No. No. Dude, just release games until midnight the next day. Beating games wasn't. Oh, God. OK, fine. Captain Midnight does have to take like this. Try to be nuts. But it's OK. Just cool. His socks, too. But it's more relevant than this, guys. I will give you that. Yes. Brand consumption was cool. We were either Nintendo or Sega Kids or Nintendo or. Boring. Say something. This is really not. Tell me what it was like to be a kid. Like, did you know this video was going to be this way? This is one of the why you the way that you are. What's this specifically just to torment me? I can torment multiple people at once. I don't know. What if there was no point? What if it was all the video essayist preamble? This is also very kind of narrow-minded in that. He kind of expects that everybody's experience with video games is exactly like him. Yeah. So if they speak for yourself, he keeps saying these limited statements where it's just what he's talking about. I feel like all of us could describe a different experience with video games at the age he's talking about. It's just useless. Yeah. His stuff is ranging from N64 days to Xbox 360. Back in the PlayStation days, you could get a demo disc with like 20 demos on there. That could keep you busy for hours if you're worried about the money factors. There's plenty of other options. There's a rental buy wasn't the only option. Weird. PlayStation Kids. And if you're a little younger, either Xbox 360 or PlayStation 3 Kids. You'd think people would grow out of those childlike conceptions, but teenage adolescence has a funny way of making us feel a lot smarter without doing much of anything different. Okay. We are at the point now where I'd be like, what do you guys think the fucking point of this video is? I have no idea. I'm starting to think the answer to that is ads. I figured this was going to be along the lines of actually talking about like reviewing games. Because I didn't realize that there was ever a perspective that you had to complete every single game that you bought. I didn't know that that was something that people felt strongly. As we got older, the words used may have changed, but it was the same dynamic. My teenage years were when the console wars became a monolith. You know, this is spoke like the Vietnam ship for Movie Bob. He's going over every stage of his fucking life. Just telling us how he felt about video games. This is a point that like... He's a crazy person. Everybody is very passionate about gaming and that we have like different cultural flash points of crazy things happening. I don't really know. If that was this point, he'd be willing to explore different points of views other than his limited perspective of video games and childhood. He keeps limiting it to like his perspective. Like, I don't think that's it. I think this guy is just a fucking rambling idiot. That's pretty much the conclusion. And much more like the kind of hints into that, but not really explored to be like, did marketing back in the 90s kind of create that kind of feeding frenzy that influenced the sort of peer pressure that created this sort of I got to finish this or else I'm going to be left behind. That's an interesting idea, but he doesn't explain it at all. 90s advertising essentially creating and capitalizing on the console war is a big topic that would be worth. But it feels like it's not the same topic. No, not really. Like, yeah, just really aimless. The whole Sega does what Nintendo and creating mascots that would essentially compete with each other and trying to undercut each other and being hyper competitive. Yeah, they're they're really aggressive, too. The advertising companies between Nintendo and Sega, they would absolutely just dump on the other console. The advent of the Internet. But shout, are you here? Yes, man. Oh, my God. Beautiful. Mr. Sword. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome. We are approaching hour three of our 24 hour extravaganza. Nice to see you. Whoa. It's nice to be here. So I did. It's funny. I was hanging out with you more this week than, I think, Fringian Rex. Oh, my God. Wow. That's the streaming world for you. If you scroll up, there's a link to a watch together. We're currently listening to Mel. Why don't you summarize what we've learned so far? I don't fucking know. I'm just scared of Louis. We've learned about one man's trauma with video games. Yeah, a lot of trauma. I'll fuck up his childhood. One man being tormented by Louis. It happened. Had to finish every game. Otherwise, he gets beat up by Louis. Essentially, five minutes of explaining how he felt like as a child, he had to finish every single game, but then he realized he didn't. That's basically what's happened so far. That's the revolutionary kind of conclusion. And how much of the effect in his life? He missed the best part, though, shout out is at the beginning, four separate times. He said he felt, based on the events of his childhood, that he had to finish the game. He's increasingly serious each time with words on the screen. Did he explain what he felt would happen if he didn't? Death. Death? Shame. Banishment. All of the shame. He basically, he couldn't be... Like, he couldn't live almost. Like, it was... Banishment to wherever Throne was banished. He put a great deal of importance on being validated by his gaming experiences, compared to how other kids viewed him and how he socialized regarding that. So it was very... Interesting. Is he mentally stable? I think he's mentally stable. He's got his priorities a bit gloopy. Well, I think we're into the substantive part of the video. That's off-theory anyway. We're about to get started. Well, I love substance. I don't blame you. Substance is great. Matt, paired with one of the most popular console generations of all time, really brought it out of people. Well, game companies learning about internet marketing really brought it out of people. Why do you... What game... Everything. Everything learned about marketing. And it's not... It's not even in due. Again, the console war is from the 90s, like, as a phenomenon. You could say it even started earlier than that, but it really... Like, it's not like it was a new thing with the PS4 and the Xbox One. Like, that's just because you were getting more immersed in those spaces at that time. We have seen a reference to Nintendo and Sega, right? That fight, but it goes beyond that. Obviously. Yeah, exactly. You could go back to the Odyssey and the Atari and stuff. Yeah, it's been going on for a long time. Yeah, well, before Nintendo and Sega, Atari just dominated everything for so long. So it wasn't really a competition. But it wasn't as fierce as some of the battles they were on. Don't worry. There was still plenty of Game of Cringe. All the eras. Exactly. Love to enjoy. And whether or not you were a willing participant, you were in it. No, you weren't. No. No, you were. You could just play your game and not give a shit. Exactly. You weren't a part of it if you didn't care about it. It just cuts to some guy reading a book on a chair. He goes, I wasn't. Sitting there wearing a monocle next to the fire at the fireplace. Yeah. I shouldn't have given a shit about the console whilst back in the day. I was just playing my games. I didn't give a shit beyond... I legit was just like, which one is better, though? I just need to know. Just let me know. So I can spend my money better, that's all. I just want to know that. Had one current gen console, an Xbox 360 or a PS3, and the Wii probably. If you had all three, chances are you were an outlier, but therein lied the social hierarchy. I thought he was about to say you were the coolest kid in school if you had all of those. Everybody liked you if you had all of the gaming consoles in school. If you had all of them, you were in fact Lewis. His schooling experience was just odd. But he's about to mention a social hierarchy based on the amount of consoles you have. So with the nerds, potentially, yes. You'd be the cool kid. But going outside of the nerd crews, I don't know about that. Even the fucking teachers would be like, look, you pathetic shit's playing with you. Just show up and it's like, I've got gamer score in three currencies. There was... I still remember that in school because there was like a place to go where everyone would play Maricot DS, right? And there would be a teacher everyone saw being like, do you want to go outside and play with a ball? No? Okay, do whatever you want, I guess. When you're a teammate with numbers... Hey, you want to be a part of everything. You're learning about yourself. You're trying and feeling lots of new things. And if there's something people are doing you don't have access to, you start to feel like you're missing out. You lose the sense of belonging in your social circles when all of your friends are talking about a game you haven't played yet, or when everyone's getting on Xbox Live to play Gears 3's Horde mode, but you don't have it. Gears 3 Horde mode, why would you reference that of everything? Well, because a specific example, you know, like it's good to have a specific example. Yeah, but you couldn't have gone with like Halo 3 custom games, or Mon Warfare 2 just online in general. Why? It was called... What is... I... I'm not sure what's the complaint here. I think Gears 3 Horde mode, this like sucks compared to the kind of shit you could get on 360 here. Okay, all right, okay. No, I like Gears 3 Horde mode. I didn't play Gears of War. No. I played the first one on Xbox One, the remaster. The Gears 3 Horde mode was better than two. It's just the... Gears online was still better than the Horde mode by far, and then the online for Gears was already so glitchy that I would recommend Horde over it, you know? And then Halo. That's a controversial take though, isn't it? Because all I heard at the time was everybody really liked Horde mode. I really liked Horde mode, but I would definitely say that Halo was played a lot more online, for sure. For sure, but... But he's just saying it as an example. That's it. Yeah, it just... I'm allowed to be critical of any example given at any time for my own reasons, otherwise I'll make a video about how wrong you are. I'm just gunning your opinion, while I'm just saying that I'm agreeing with you in that, this particular video, he's using his specific experience examples as if that's what everybody went through. He's basically... He's imprinting his very, very specific... He's been doing that with everything. Yeah, the thing is, I can understand the feeling of like, I'd like to play that game with my friends, but I can't. But I don't know, you just get over it, right? I mean, I kind of get some of the things... Yeah, he's playing the game. I get some of the things he's saying. I mean, I felt that with... I have a few close friends of mine are huge Dark Souls fans, and they're able to talk about it on such a deep technical level. And I fucking suck at that game. And then... But I really enjoy having played it. But I just haven't progressed that much, and sometimes they have a deep conversation about it. It's like, oh, fuck, I wish I could participate. I kind of feel like a losing... Hearing the detail that they discussed it in, that makes you want to play it more when you have the time. It doesn't make you want to bitch about it like this guy. I don't know what his problem is. He just seems to be this weird emotional response. Play the fucking game. With everything he said, he's painted a very big cultural issue that's causing us all to think we need to finish games, right? I assume from the title. It's a personal issue that he's turning into a cultural issue. Yeah, he's making an essay about the history of GPS's. And then he's like, yeah, when you take Turner and North Street, like everybody does, that reward is really difficult to navigate. You know what I mean? And just using a very, very specific example that affected him as indicative of the greater problem or the greater solution that GPS has provided. It's a weird example. But this isn't a video game problem. This is like a life thing that you need to get over, which is like being excluded or the fear of missing out. Like these are not video game problems. These are general problems. I don't know why we're making it about video games specifically. Yeah, that's really the point of the finger. All this, yeah, everything. Even sports, they're just not good enough. Exactly, yep. That Dark Souls thing I described earlier, I mean, I don't give a shit now. Now I'm just like, whatever. I just like playing the games that I enjoy spending time on. No, I mean, have you ever considered making a video essay on this and the trauma you're hearing about this problem? I was like, well, I've gone through my ad. I've gone through my game library and be like, oh my God, there's so much fucking shit I haven't eaten or even played. I've tried to get over that. I don't, yeah, I don't worry about it. And I'm just like, what, I just want to play whatever is what makes me the most happy at this moment. And a lot of that time is just firing up Tetris. That's my saying, as you get older, you're going to have to balance your gaming a little bit better. Make sure you have a relationship with the games you play. Okay, so every time the cinema came around, did people make the memes about how steam was going to rape your wallet, right? So I'm going to throw a spanner into this philosophical discussion right now, right? Because there are some games that I purposely choose to not finish. What? Well, I know, this is shocking. This is shocking stuff, right? So interesting, I think you guys, brace yourselves, right? I've played, I don't know how many hours of Skyrim. I'm like, I'm just if not thousands, right? What's Skyrim? Of what? Of what? Skyrim. Me and Rags, we're just talking about that. Skyrim. Oh, Skyrim. Oh, we're just talking about that. And I have never... I've never completed the main storyline. Me and Rags are saying the same thing. Really? I don't know. Yeah, it's so funny they say that. It's one of those games that we're too busy just fucking around in. I don't care how we do it. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about, though. I haven't been in it for a long time. But also, I've done that on purpose because I've noticed a weird phenomenon when I finish a game. I feel like I now know kind of, there's no mystery anymore. Yeah, since I've wanted to discover and as a result, it actually kind of makes me check out of the game. It takes away... Yeah, yeah. And so as long as I don't finish that main storyline, there's a sense of mystery still of something left to be done that causes me, man, if I start a new playthrough, oh, there's so much... I haven't finished the main storyline. And even though I go through all the stuff that I've already done, but then you go over it doing random side things anyway and it becomes a really different playthrough. And then at the end, I still choose not to finish the game with that character because I don't want it to be over. I just want the experience to keep going. Yeah, even as you're messing around just doing side quest stuff and leveling your guy, it's still looming over you that there's this quest at the end and there could be a greater meaning to all this. Exactly. If you just beat it, if you just beat it right away, it makes the messing around and you're less motivated to do that. Why don't I want to get a level 90 of this when I know there's no way... It's funny. I think there's a lot of guys that have the same experience when it comes to beating things. Well, beating them. I just can't believe of all the games in the world. You brought up Skyrim. We're both made right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the same thing. It's so funny. Well, this happened to me with Fallout 4. After I finished the main quest line, I was like, I had this feeling of emptiness. I was like, oh, it's over. And I've really played it since. It was a way. If there was just like 10 strict levels in some kind of game that was much more linear, you'd stop at nine so that the next time you play it, you know that there's one that you haven't played yet. Depends on the game. Maybe. It might really depend on if it's an open world RPG like that. It really has the same effect to me like so. Yeah, Skyrim. I think Skyrim is a great example because it's so distracting. But same thing, I'm doing the same thing with Elden Ring. I purposely haven't finished Elden Ring. And again, I don't want the experience to be over. So now when I go back to it, I'm going to start a brand new character, go through everything that I've already done before. And I'm motivated to do it now because there's still that sense of mystery of how it could end. And I know that it seems a multiple different endings anyway. And so you can keep going that way. So you're discussing the benefit of not finishing games. And I mean, all that makes sense. This guy is just having like an existential crisis or something. He's not doing what you're doing. Like this guy, you missed the beginning of this. He's just got a weird relationship with games. The conclusion he's going to reach at some point is you don't have to finish games. It's like, who said you did? Yeah, I know. This is a philosophy I already live. This is new news. Haunted multiplayer itself feels like this distant place where everyone else is having a new kind of fun you can't afford to maintain. Sometimes it was... What does this got to do with finishing games? Again, this is a broader thing. This is just fair of missing out in general. Which means that the video itself feels like it's already... Oh, no, the video. It's too narrow and too broad. Like we're all over the place. Yeah, exactly. It's simultaneously all about you while also being about a much bigger topic than games. It was so integral to the stability of your friendships that not playing the same... Okay. There it is. There it is. That's not a friendship you have. There it is, right there. Wow. Yeah, that was not the case for... I had several things that me and my friends were interested in beyond individual game storylines or multiplayer experiences. I was with him to an extent with the whole like it feels bad when your friends talk about how much fun this thing was and you don't have that game yet so you just can't play it with him. But the idea that it would like fuck up the friendship or change it... Yeah, that's pathetic. Completely pathetic. Well, at that point you need better friends. It's really fun to be able to talk to someone who's like... You can... League of Legends, for example, talking to someone who's as high level as you and actually can understand it at the same level, it's really satisfying. But just because you can't do that doesn't mean you can't enjoy the game. Like you can always build up to that. But this guy, this is... I don't know. He's taken this really way too personally. Yeah. In games as a player. Yeah, he seems to think like if you haven't played the games that your friends have played, you're like locked out of a conversation. Like, can't you just go like, oh, I didn't play that game but I learned how to play piano. It's kind of like the opposite, actually. I would say that you're attracted to the games that your friends play, not that you're excluded from being friends because you're not playing the same games. If all your friends... You look at your games list and... Or your friends list and they're all playing Halo 3, more than likely you're probably going to think about getting Halo 3 because you want to play with your friends. It wasn't like a... Sort of like an exclusion or, you know, you're being marginalized because you're not playing Halo 3. You want to enjoy an experience with your friends and people you know. And if you didn't work with Halo 3 and your friends Andy you and say, I don't want to play with you anymore and drop you in the dumpster, that means you've got a good friend. I know, yeah. If your friendship was based around... Your friendship was tied by a game. A video game. Like, geez. If it's tied to a game, like, that's... It's... Come on now. Maybe you need to re-evaluate your friends and like your whole relationship with games. Yeah. And yeah, for the most part, like the most you get is like, hey, you want to play some Resident Evil 5? Like, no, I'm playing a big team death match on Halo 3. It's like, you should really get Halo 3. We could play together. That'd be basically be the conversation for the most part. That's the true friend who says like, hey, man, I got you a copy of Halo 3 because you're poor as shit and I'm not. Exactly. Come play this game. Let me lure you over to this side. Get this. You know, there's so many different ways people try to... Those are the real friends. That's such a good point. This guy seems like he doesn't understand that because if these people cared about it... No one was traumatized. If Lewis gave a fuck about him, like he would explain this to him. You know what I mean? I don't know what he did to this guy. You'd be smaller as a friend. He's like, hey, you want to play Gollum? It's like, no. Then I buy everybody Gollum. Buy him a copy. Yeah. It's love you come into school. Gears of War 3 releases. Lewis is there and you say like, kind of forward and he just goes, You can't say here. You can't say here. I don't know, man. Sorry. You don't know what happened. We were standing in the street for our friend. Maybe that's true. Maybe this is actually Verlaphaged. But maybe that's his real reality. Yeah. Well, I was going to say, he's like, that's unfortunate if you had those friends, I guess. Yeah. He does talk of school experience. He talks of a school experience as if everybody experienced the same thing. Mine was much different. I mean, the school that I went to in the early grades, a lot of kids from financially lower class or lower middle class families. And they were just not a lot of people were playing video games. Like it was just me and a few other people. But I get like him saying that games are a sort of social currency at school. Like I remember when I got a Game Boy Color with Pokemon Red and I went to school with it. And like all the kids are gathering around me. Like, oh my God, that's so awesome. Not everybody has it. So yeah. This meant you weren't hanging out with them anymore. Not on purpose, just by circumstance. It might not seem like this was all about beating the game per se, but remember where these feelings developed from? This panic, you lose your credibility if you didn't know what happens. This... We didn't agree on that. I never had. Yeah, I just never... This is all you believe in to me. This is projecting. There it is. Shut up, Shad. You don't have credibility. You didn't be able to drink. I do like it when, you know, you stay in something previously in the video that we're all like, no, that's insane. Then later on it's like, now knowing that, we can conclude. It's like, no, no, no. Now that we've agreed on this same thing I've said, we can move right along. Desire to be included in what was being talked about video games were a fad, and the internet shortened the lifespan of how long those fads would be in style. If you didn't beat Red Dead Redemption in the two weeks it came out, your friends were already moving on to something else. Oh my God, man. Oh my God, man. It's been two weeks. Damn, bro. It's been two weeks. Isn't that game like... The game is huge. Yeah, I was about to say. Was I... All I know about that game is it's massive. I feel like an alien listens to this guy. He's like, my friends played RDR2 and I didn't, and then they would be like, it's really good and I'd be like, cool. That's awesome. Right, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Let's talk about some other things. I don't know, it's really noted. The game's lasted for a while, even while the internet, you know, even in the... Yeah, it's just... And if you have someone... If you have someone who hasn't finished the game, you finish already, it's like, oh, sure, I hope you finish it soon so we can talk about it. Yeah, that's it. You can't wait. Well, but then also, here's a crazy concept. You could have somebody talk about a game that you haven't played and you can still listen to them and engage with them. It's insane, yeah. That's entirely possible, so... There's so many variables, it was precedent for this. People did it with film. It was nuts and bugs. Well, you bring up an important thing with them all because if I was to try and steal man it, I'd say the only type of experience I can really relate to what it's saying is with TV shows, but it's a bit of a different experience because I hang out with a lot of reviewers and so if we want to really talk about all the spoilers in Soka, right? Well, like on FNT, yeah, or hanging out with you guys, we want to review a movie that's recently come out. Then I do feel a certain pressure. It's like, oh, I better watch that so I can... But it's not to the sense where I don't know, like you left behind or something like that. With games, there's still the gameplay element to it where with movies or shows, you get the whole story revealed. That spoilers are much more damaging. With games, you can hear the entire story or you can hear about the boss and everything and still want to play it to explore the mechanics. Well, there are also other ways, yeah, there's other ways to experience games as well. You can watch through or play together or whatever as well to be somewhat informed. Because it's also interesting, right? Because I did not play Last of Us 1 or Last of Us 2, but I remember having conversations with Moeller or something like about... Maybe I was just watching it when you guys were reviewing it on eFap and I felt like I was part of it. Oh, yeah, the coverage with the gaming. Yeah, because the coverage was extensive and I've never played the game, but I felt part of the conversation because I was just engaged about the controversy of Last of Us 2. And comparing the game to the movies. Comparing the game to the show, that actually really helped seeing what they changed, what they didn't. Because I didn't play it either, so being able to have that filled in, whoever did that, perfect. It's kind of isolating this problem as if it's something to do with games, but it really couldn't be applied to any shared interest. Hey, did you see that Pigger's game yesterday? Yeah, that was crazy. He threw the ball in the place and they got a point. Wow, that's nuts. Hey, did you catch that episode of Seinfeld? Hey, did you read that book that was a New York Times bestseller? Yeah, 50 Shades of Grey. Isn't that a great read? As I said, no one. But it's not really indicative of games itself. It's just any shared interest that is currently being shared or discussed by the people you hang out with, which could be literally anything or about anything or anybody or any particular industry. And holy crap, I remember actually, yes, I was on an e-fap talking about Last of Us 2 because it was the last e-fap anniversary stream and we were reviewing... Who's the fat guy who was like... Hey, Daryl? What was he talking about? Jim, the fact that Jim Sterling... Yes, Sterling, that guy. And I'd never played the game, but I had no problem engaging on a substantive level about the commentary he was making because he was saying really stupid things as well. And so you can still be part of, you know, the conversation, the interaction of a game without ever having played it. I've experienced it first hand with e-fap, but it was the last anniversary stream we did. There we go. But I guess maybe that's what we're ramping up to with this video, that it's eventually gonna get to, you know what? And that's okay, that's fine. Yeah, exactly. Maybe we're jumping the gun. You're being included in a discussion closed. It wasn't in the fairy tale high school bully kind of way, but beating games had gone from making you cool to being accepted. Is it hard to believe the industry with capital? Where did she grow up? I was gonna say, what was that? This fucking fantasy school was this. And if you didn't play video games, you were just going to die alone. His childhood was messed up, his school sucked. Like, this is just a terrible situation he was born into with games, I don't know. But it lies on its biggest demographics, worst anxiety, limited editions, pre-order bonuses, DLCs. Okay, this is a whole other thing that we're getting into when we're talking about that. That's a different conversation again. Extending the story, or in some cases providing the ending to the base game story. Online functions at a monthly premium. Season passes guaranteeing- Wow, god, Xbox, yeah. This out on future developers utilizing underhanded methods of making pre-owned copies of games impossible to use. It became harder and harder to keep up with the rest of the community if you weren't buying the new release and tunneling through it for the sake of being part of it. Even now- God, I just- You okay, Theo? I was about to ask you. You okay, Theo? When am I- I'm not okay. My soul is- So this video is just about FOMO, not- Yeah, I was about to say this video could just be literally called FOMO. It's got nothing to do with whether or not you need to finish a game. Yeah, a lot of the comments agree with it, too. A lot of the comments on this video are hyper-positive. So I'm just like, this is not a video essay. This is a vlog that people are finding and agreeing with. Yeah, it's kind of funny. You can solve a lot of this by just having a casual interest in almost all games that are coming out. Like, even if you don't play them, pretty much anybody can mention any game to me. I'll be like, oh, yeah, I heard that you can do blah, blah, and blah, and that it looks like blah. And it's sound- And blah made it. And it's like, you have a casual interest in all games. And therefore, you can never be left out because you know a little bit about everything. Like, it's not too hard to keep up with the industry if you actually enjoy the games and things coming out. Feeling like I'm missing out on a game my friends love convinces me to buy games without a second thought. Compounding into a sunk-cost fallacy I've built up since high school. You need to, like, let it pass. Don't lie to us. We have the footage. It's from childhood. Like. Yeah, I can imagine. He just needs to properly balance all this stuff. If Fray Rags, like, see a movie and fucking praise it to high heaven, I, someone said, like, isn't it bad, Mola? Because now you feel pressured to go and see it. We're like, what? No, this is good news. That means I'm probably going to like the film. I don't know. Like, why, why, why are you putting it this way? It's like, I had to finish it. I had a sunk-cost fallacy of knowing that if I didn't complete it, I fear I would never be able to discuss with them. It's just like, dude, you need to calm down. When they say Red Dead Redemption 2 is neat, and then you go, hmm, I might pick it up. And then they go, yeah, that'd be neat, because we could talk to you about it, maybe play the multiplayer. Okay, doesn't need to be some, say, Tannig Lewis dominated version of this. That's awful. Like, it could just be all that. I just imagine, I just imagine, like, Lewis and all his friends were like surrounding him and it lies on the ground and the playground is like, hey, hey, JC, did you buy Red Dead yet? It's like, no, no. It's like, open up your phone. Buy it. Come on. Do it. I want to see you do it. Lewis is holding Chad. I think we should fill in Chad. Lewis was his childhood friend that started this whole drama for him. Lewis is just like holding, calm. Like, he brings people in. Like, has he played the game? Yeah, at this point, Lewis is a slenderman like creature that appears in his nightmares. They haven't finished the game. A scientific study waiting to prove video game backlogs begin at around the same time a video game enthusiast gets their first job. And maybe you want to make it up to your younger self and fulfill a desire which was never indulged. Maybe you're like me and bought every game you pirated as a kid to justify your own conscience. Or maybe, like many of us, you practice retail therapy and get yourself something you like when you're going through a rough time. Retail therapy. Retail therapy? What is that? Apparently, when you buy something, it's an American thing. When you become happy when you buy something. Look, I experienced that today, guys. I bought two new swords at a medieval festival and it made me pretty darn happy. I just, you hold the sword and I just smile. That makes sense, I guess. I was imagining like going into Toys R Us and just like talking to the cashiers, like, yeah, I've got to have some problems, like my friends. I think that's what he said. Sir, please. I appreciate the version. Then you realize you've spent hundreds or thousands of dollars on a huge list of games you kept assuring yourself you'd definitely play. Dude, you need someone to talk to about all of this. He is talking to an audience. Talking to the world, because that's what the internet did. It allowed everyone to share all of their trauma. This is his therapy. And so your backlog and the sunk cost fallacy attached to it is born. Beating games isn't your job anymore, though. Playing games is what you do in your free time or in between tasks at work. In other words, you can't devote an entire week to them without taking a few days off from, well, everything. But what's the point in buying and playing games if it doesn't be you? What is this? Like, what are you saying? What are you saying? What are you saying? What are you saying? What the hell am I supposed to do now? Seriously. Died. I think we figured out, like, four minutes in that this was, like, totally personal, just emotional. You know that there's just some guy who's healthily played games his whole life, probably all of us, just watching this and being like, what the fuck am I listening to? I don't know about you guys, but, like, when there was a game that was kind of running on a bit, GTA IV, that game would never freaking end. My reward for being in that game was, like, oh, man, I can try something new. I can get a new game and play that. I kind of would make that a really game. And that's personal. It's probably not applicable to everybody. But my kind of reward was, like, wow, I finished that. I'll get another game. I can try that. So he's, like, saying, like, he's, like, I can't stand playing games seven days a week. I got to get a reprieve and, like, curl up in a ball on the floor and the story is just not enough time between all of the worldly responsibilities that we have and playing video games. But I got to play the video games. Otherwise, I'll be alone, huddled over on the ground like this guy, grieving to the heavens what the hell am I supposed to do now? It's so dramatic. It all depends on it. Yeah. I don't know, like, you can't, if you're talking to someone and they've played a game that you haven't, just ask them questions about it. Because I'm sure the person who has the game will probably be quite happy to go into detail and explain how a game works to a person who hasn't played it. Yeah, you can get help without spoilers. It could be a benefit sometimes to have a friend. Like, sometimes it sucks to be playing a game and you don't have anyone who's played it. The idea that you didn't talk to people about games that you didn't play at any length at all is, like, alien to me. That's, that's baffling. I can't relate to that at all. I definitely talk to people about games that I hadn't played. And to them about games that they hadn't played, it wasn't, like, this crazy thing that would end the friendship. That's, I don't understand. Like, hi, Fringy. That's usually how you get into new games. Then you talk about how you want to talk about BioShock and I'm like, I haven't played it, bye. Bye. You don't beat them, right? It's like losing out on an investment or something. Because that's totally what I'm doing. A game is an investment, I think, because it might beat it. It depends on how you. You could argue that. You could argue that with everything you choose to contain. If you see the way that he's delivering these lines, he's approaching a revelation, seeing the pause of like, but it's an investment. And it's like figuring it out in real time. It should truly be treated as just fun experiencing, not an investment. Yeah, we're ramping up to a realization, I think, hopefully. I've been saying that for a while. The content of the video is going to be in the last two sec. I think we're about to pivot into the inspirational part of the video essay. You know, the part where it starts. Where he figured it all out. Yeah. We're not nearly at the end. We still got seven minutes left, but we're getting there. God fucking damn it. Move on to the next one. If you ask me, the presence of a backlog implies we've never grown out of our childhood habits. We've... Whoa! What? Bro! What? What are you talking about? Speak for yourself! Having a backlog is the normal state of affairs. Yeah, especially when there's things like Humble Bundle, which I still am subscribed to. And the stream library and the sales. You can only build a backlog. Entries in my Steam library, because of all these dumbass things. Not all of them, like Humble Bundle. Just over time, just add it up, add it up. Absolutely. They're making it combined. I'm faster than I can play them. If I was to go back in time and tell my young self that I'm going to have way more games than I will ever even like play, I'd look at myself like a crazy person. I'd be like, what? Why would you buy a game and never play it? And I'm like, listen, adulthood's complicated. Steam would have screwed up all our childhoods. Like, we're lucky we got it at the right time. Like, there's way too many games, way too much. And like, it's impossible to not have a backlog in this day and age. We have Steam banned Lewis, so... Damn, we can get to it. Isn't this one kind of antithetical to his whole video? Because he's saying that like, oh, because we have the fear missing out and we've got to buy all these games that we're still doing the same thing as our childhood. So we shouldn't buy more games. Isn't that kind of antithetical to the fact that you can try games out and not finish them? Because that's like the whole premise of the video, right? I mean, I can't believe I'm about to say this, but like, is he familiar with the idea that you have a wish list and then they come on sale but you don't have time to play them so you buy them to play them in future and then you forget about them. But this is a thing that can happen. A very reasonable thing that can happen. You want to grab the deal, but you don't have time. Happens to me a lot. I have such a huge backlog when I look at my Steam games. A lot of my backlog, I don't even consider backlogs, just things in my inventory, which I got randomly with those bundles. So which is highlighted, yeah. Everyone has a backlog from the moment they're born because of free-to-play games. They're always there. They're in your library if you want them. Oh, don't mention that to him. He's like, no, that fucks everything up. Shut up. You've found ways to add importance to something which should have never mattered in the first place. Our money-driven society taught us to play games. Yeah, there it is. Ooh, boring. Capitalism. Boring. Boring. We have Karl Marx. We could learn a lot from the answer. Karl Marx always finished his game. Once we start to understand how expensive that is. Socialist hands couldn't even kill Kang. I don't know, man. They can't do anything right. I played games because they're fun. I don't know how this guy can put those things into the such a crappy statement. Our hobby is suddenly we're measuring cost versus experience and seeking to maximize our profits by mil- You know what? I can't take any of this seriously. You fucking subscribe to the humble monthly bumble and you get like a billion games per day. Do you? Yeah. Like, yeah, I do that, buddy. Is the reason that all this is happening is like, wow. You buy a game cost and then you got a whole bunch of games. Yeah. So you can play. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you have friends who are just iffy them. There's no- His friends don't do that. Come here. You're not here. I'm not this guy. Definitely not. There are so many great free-to-play games as well. And- Yeah. Yeah. Like, it's so boring to listen to one of you like, you see, it's the cost that's attached to the games. It makes us feel as though. And you're just like, shut up, shut up. I feel like a much simpler explanation is we have finite time on this planet. We've got to make choices about how we spend that time. Yeah. And we often make half choices, half measures where we're like, I'll pick up the game now. I'll play it a little bit now. I can't complete it before I go on holiday, but I'll try. And then you'll forget about it. There's all kinds of things. Yeah. And until you retire, generally speaking, from it from being a child to an adult, the older you get, the more money you make, but the less time, free time you have. So that ratio is going to get a little tighter. So you're going to buy just logistics alone. You're probably going to have more games to play than you have time to play them all. Belting the game for everything it's worth. And if we don't, well, that's our fault. We made a bad investment. No, why? Why do you even do this? If there's a game, there's so many games I haven't even completed recently than I've played on Steam that if I don't look at them and feel shame, I look at them and I'm like, well, I picked that up again. Maybe, maybe not. I'm not sure. The idea that I should have a fucking Lewis shadowing me all the time is absurd. Something didn't hold us long enough and now it's money wasted. It's not though. You paid money to play a game and you played it. You enjoyed something until you were. So you presented the crazy person just to say the rational thing. Is that the point of this video? Tired of it. That's normal. No one expects you to cash optimize how you go bowling and quite frankly. Yeah, nobody does. So why did you say it? No, he's playing it. It's just therapy for him. That's what this is. Over the head with my ball if you try to rush me. And likewise, there shouldn't be an expectation to beat a game just because you spent money on it. Yet some of us still push through a game we don't like and. Hey, don't show him. That's Simpsons. Fuck. That game is awesome to play. Just to knock it off the list, you better believe the industry took advantage of this mindset too. The last decade has been 10 years of re-releasing old games. The last decade has been hang on. But the idea that like dead space in Resident Evil 4 that just re-releases is annoying. The amount of fucking work that went into those is incredible. I imagine you might be talking about like remasters of the because it feels like remasters became very popular with the eighth generation in particular. Remasters would be a fair argument. They were mastering still. They've been remastering and re-releasing games since the 80s at least. How many times have they redone Tetris? They did the entire like first four games in the Super Mario Brothers series for the SNES. They did the all-stars. Yeah, all-stars, which is a great collection, by the way. But yeah, it's like it's done a new thing. Yeah, it's probably a little more common now because there's more games to remaster. That's just kind of an obvious thing. There's more games remasters. There's going to be more remasters. Monthly subscriptions for instant access to your very own backlog and massive sales to drive up purchases. Why is he saying this like a bad thing? Yeah. Subscribe to his service, get access to a huge library of games. So that sounds like a good thing. Yeah. Pretty cool. It's seen games as a service become a popular way of keeping players invested and begrudgingly getting through bad content to get to new content. What? What? The whole point of it is to make it up. Is he doing the thing, represents the TISM argument and then says it's not that? I don't get it though. It's like, do they think that like the, you know, Microsoft creating game pass at their primary model is ha ha. Now these fucking guys are going to be playing these games that they hate just to get to the ones that they like. Just to get to the ones they like. Rather than, this is just a good way to get people to be in the Xbox ecosystem and play the games that they want to play. And in fact, it relies on people playing. Like the system doesn't work if people are playing every single game. The system works because people are only playing a handful of those games. Because if everybody was playing every single game, it would make it to like, to where it wouldn't be sustainable. To have every single game on the platform. Because people wouldn't be buying any of those games anymore. There'd be like no individual purchases. And it's not like, it's not like a system where they have like the best games locked behind this stupid thing where you must complete these crappy games before we'll let you play the good ones. It's, because that's what he's implying. It's, it's very important. I think he's implying, he's showing Destiny 2, so I'm assuming that's relevant. Destiny 2 does have like DLC, buying DLC to be on DLC. Ha ha, yeah, that's enough. A lot of content and stuff. But that's specifically that game. Well, the thing about that though, is the point of the live service game is to make sure you're only playing that game forever. They want you to play that game and nothing else. They want you to be hyper immersed in their ecosystem to the exclusion of everything else. I'd say that's like a very different phenomenon. You know, if you're missing out, baked into live service games and season passes and everything like that, they want you more and more and more and more invested in one game. Because you want to keep up with the conversation about that one game, you're invested in the community of that one game. I think that honestly, that this whole premise of this video is just kind of missing the forest for the trees because honestly, the reason why we have such a great huge backlog is because games have never been more affordable and more plentiful than ever in history. You can buy great games for $5, $10, on sale for $2, you know, you can get them on Steam, you can get them on GOG, you can get them on Uplay for some reason. If you want to use Uplay, you know, there's all these different platforms. Yeah, Game Pass. Game Pass, you get like access to 100 games at a time or something. Oh, well, you get new games for no additional cost from Xbox anyway. Yeah, it rotates out every few months or whatever, but you get access to potentially hundreds of games over the following years. So yeah, we just have so much more affordable to get a lot of games, especially with the sales and stuff. Generally, you know, you go to, you know, if you back in the day in the 90s or whatever, you'd buy a brand new N64 game for 60 bucks, and that price would not go down very quickly. It would take years to go down. Eventually, it might go down to 40 bucks or whatever, but or you can get it used maybe, but yeah, the games are extremely affordable and plentiful nowadays. So it's really just a, not even that unfortunate. It's actually a nice side effect of it, just you have tons of options to play now. Kind of went past it, but I do want to, it's just, it was on my mind. I was trying to think about it. You know when he said like, you would even start to buy games he pirated previously to try and clear his conscience? I was just thinking of myself like, why would you phrase it that way instead of, I wanted to support the games that gave me so much entertainment back in the day. You know what I mean? Everything's a self report with this guy. Yeah, it's like he did it because he felt guilty. As they often are. Yeah. This whole video. In any case, on that note, Mr. The Movie Cynic, that was very subtle and nicely said. You're going to have to have to get on out of here, I suppose. You've, I don't know, you're going to sleep. You're going to do things in real life. I'm not sure. I actually have a gaming situation going on. I'm going to go play some Call of Duty, of all things. You don't have to. I know it's, is Louis forcing you to do this? It's the only way I can hang out with like, all of my childhood friends live across the country. So it's the only way we can all hang out and play. Oh yeah. Yeah. And it's the only game we can all agree on anyway. And we all just kind of sit and complain because 12 year olds kick our ass, I feel like. I like the idea of the, you know, half of people agree on great games. The only game everyone agrees on is probably shit. All right. Thank you for popping in, sir. Appreciate it. And I'm sure we'll catch you again in the future. Yes, I will catch you guys later. Enjoy the rest of this vlog self-report, therapy session, whatever. You know it. And happy anniversary, you guys. Thanks for the invite. Thanks, dude. You betcha. Thanks for coming. Bye. Have a good day, man. See ya. Oh, thank God he's gone. Oh my goodness. Oh, absolutely. Oh, I thought he'd never leave. Franks was still alive. Ah. Oh, no. I love everyone in all things. Because I was going to say like, God, you know the way I really hate is Mark the Cyborg, I'm so glad that he ended up here. Oh, hey, dude. If he turns up, I'm going to. Oh my God. Really? Oh, I really appreciate his presence. What a jerk that guy is. Oh, hey, man. Yeah. Yep. I sure do like things. Oh, I hate you. It's like he doesn't want to talk to us. That's fine. You know, I couldn't stand that. May, may. Fair enough. Fair enough. Maybe. You know, you could have just gotten bullied by a bunch of his friends to buy, you know, Red Dead Redemption 2 or something. That does with the amount of footage we had of that in this video. I feel like that was a particularly traumatic experience for this man. That was the one that did it. Mark, if you can hear us, we can't hear you. And as you get in that all fixed up, there is a watch together link. You're welcome to join us. We go further into this adventure. Now I can hear you guys. There you go. There we go. Yeah, I was on a stream using restream and I had to reselect my mixing board in that program. And I think it broke discord somehow because I definitely use discord more than I use a web solution that I've never once used ever. Well, we have friends like that. Gumi friends who use like insane archaic technology. They're called Adam and Sitch. They use Zoom. Oh, they use Zoom. Yeah, they do. Oh, my goodness. And they pay for it, Rags. They pay for that. They pay for it. They pay for it. You know what? I don't like shaming many people, but that is embarrassing. I didn't even know you could pay for Zoom. I didn't either. They pay for what? What are they getting out of that? I don't know what they pay in full because this is selfish. When I pay for discord Nitro, I get a shitload of stuff. Yeah. And if you don't pay for it, you get all the bait and stuff. I just, you know, I just, I just don't get it. They let you to like 40 minute calls if you don't pay for Zoom, I think. Oh, that is true. He's fucking... Anyway, off to this video. Continuing it. Mark, link right there for you if you need it. It's seen digital storefronts compete with launch window discounts and the growth of the sketchy gray market where people can make haphazard additions to their libraries. It's seen game design philosophy change to cater to a completionist mindset and focus on keeping... I mean, some of it, maybe. I don't have a... Wait, hang on. Why have we demonized the completionists? They can be normal people. Yeah, can be. I'm crying. Can be. It's just some games are like this, sure. But other games are definitely not like this. Yeah. But also the completionist mindset is another way that can add greater playability to a game. I remember when me and my wife were playing through the new Tomb Raider. Or, well, the old new Tomb Raider. Anyway, the first of the reboot Tomb Raider. That one, right? Yeah. Like, oh, very fun game. Didn't take too long to get through the story, but my wife was enjoying the game so much that she wanted to keep playing it. And the thing that offered her, you know, greater playability was going through and completing all the achievements. And so she just went back and started going through, hunting for all the achievements she's got. And so that actually gave her greater value, having that completionist kind of goal. And so... So an interesting thing to bring up in the context of achievements with Lewis's video is there is a subset of people who feel like they have to be rushed their way to clearing every single achievement. And it's big in the PlayStation community because there's a specified trophy called a Platinum trophy that you get when you finish every single other trophy in the game. And I know people that will flat out play games that they don't like to full completion because they feel like they had to get the Platinum or they didn't really play the game. And they'll say, if you didn't get the Platinum, then you didn't really play. You obviously didn't really love Horizon Zero Dawn because you don't have the Platinum trophy. That's like, well... As someone who did a lot of achievement hunting and had friends who were obsessed with Platinum, even the most obsessed, I didn't see that sentiment around at all. It would be seen as like, you're not as good at the game as me if you haven't got the Platinum. I do that sort of sentiment, but like a sense that you haven't actually played the game fully if you haven't got the Platinum. Some games, Platinum's are retarded, you know, the same for... Which just goes well beyond like any normal person's enjoyment of a video game. So I don't know. There's some games you can kind of make that argument for. Like anyone here play Diablo 2, I'm assuming? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. People I'm assuming. Not with achievements, but I played Diablo 2 quite a bit, yeah. If basically for me, I felt like if you didn't play to the point where you actually got a character strong enough to duel and like go into the PvP aspect, then you didn't experience the game fully. If you just went through normal Nightmare in Hell and just killed monsters, you didn't get the full experience of the game. So that's one game I kind of have that feeling with, but it doesn't apply to like all games when it comes to just achievements because I think that's like a distinct aspect of that particular game where you have to get strong enough if you actually want to do the PvP aspect to it. I didn't do PvP professionally, but I just play it with friends and kill each other a bunch, collect ears, you know, have a laugh, then go back to the main game because... Not professionally. I just mean like in the games, like you go to the custom games or the public games and you can get dual rooms all the time. There would be fights and public duels where the most intense part of that game. You'd go in and you'd just get one shot thinking you're strong. You'd reevaluate your whole build. So, yeah. Yeah, I was never going back to achievements. I don't know if that was really the point of the video, but I've gone back to achievements. I never was interested in chasing achievements. The only exception to that I think was probably, I want to say Soul Calibur 4 or 3, because there's so many of them. It was, I think it was 4, I want to say. Soul Calibur 4 had a really, I don't, I've not seen this anywhere else in any game. They actually unlocked content based on the quantity of achievements you got. So, you could customize, you could take any character build from any of the fighters and make your own completely custom character. And I actually like recreated the entire cast of the Lord of the Rings. You know, I made a Gandalf character with the staff. I made an Aragorn character with like a rapier and all those different other characters. And it was, it was pretty fun. And you could actually customize them visually. But they actually would lock visual customizations for those behind milestones of the quantity of achievements you got. So, I would actually specifically find the easiest achievements to accomplish and get like 20, 30 achievements in order to get more customization gear. It was very weird, but that's the only reason I ever did it. Proper incentive. Yeah. I find achievements and trophies, like any kind of meta game system that's usually at the platform level can be really good if you're into the game anyways. And it can give you a really, as Shad was saying a moment ago, it just, it gives you that carrot on the stick to chase after if you want to just get some time. I like those challenges. Yeah. So, you know, and not like via the RPG 100 times, I hate challenges like that. I find them lame, but where it's like, you know, go through a particular area without using the obvious thing that you use to win easily. It's like, yeah, fun challenges. The ones that actually test your skill. Like not, yeah, the repetitive ones are just so dumb. Fire this gun 20 times. Yeah. Busy work. Kind of like that. Yeah. It's just, you roll your eyes at them immediately as a gamer. Ever heard of a game called My Name Is Mayo? So, it's okay. It's a PlayStation Network game that is famously just a buy this game and get an easy platinum because it's a game where all you have to do is tap on this jar of mayonnaise to win and you can get the platinum in like 10 minutes and it's sold like hundreds of thousands of copies because there's people just for the game score. Yeah. Yeah. Just as the avatar game like that. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's funny is King Kong, the official video game. That was one of the words because you just have to complete the campaign and you get a thousand. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of the game where they gave you only golden as well. But yeah, these were all games that achievement hunters would get because they like easy money sort of thing and the currency of social coolness because everyone thought you were really cool the more game score you had. Where I think that has become a problem in Sony's design is they've now stopped tying difficulty to achievements. So, you notice you do not have to. Mark, you're quiet. Oh, am I? Sorry. Yeah. Turn yourself up a wee bit. I think you're quiet. Better? Yeah. Any different? Yeah, a little bit better. Yeah, a little bit better. Yeah. Yeah, cool. What I was saying, though, is the achievements in Sony games are no longer ever tied to difficulty, I believe. So, you don't have to beat God of War on Give Me God of War to get the Platinum Trophy and God of War. And I think the reason they did that is because so many casual people started freaking out because they couldn't get the Platinum Trophies. So, they wanted to make it so that, well, you can throw it on very easy and still get the Platinum. So, it's more. They always want to nerf it now. Where's the challenge in games? There is a lameness to it, what is like the beat on the hardest difficulty. But then there is an increased layer of lameness when it's like, beat on the hardest difficulty and don't take a single hit. You're like, what? Yeah, those are really are like a time limit ones where it's like, you beat on expert difficulty, extra, extra die death mode. And it's like in 20 minutes. Like, okay. Or when you have to beat it on the really hard difficulties and it's like 10 gamers score. It's like, yeah, awesome. Yeah, thank you so much for that. Thanks so much. The damn tutorial gave me 30. So, like whatever. Players busy long enough to void refund periods. It's required the redefinition of a refund to protect consumers in however small a way it does. The pride, the need for it. I just think that's normal. I don't even see that as a bad thing. The fact that I wish did that happen more, that there's more attention given to the new markets as they evolve and an understanding of how things reflect that going forward in times. It's the same with piracy, right? Like in everything to do with the react stuff. So companies almost don't even want to get involved because it's so insanely complicated and strange, but they will as soon as enough money changes hands, right? Or is enough is stolen. And yeah, when it comes to what is the nature of refunds when it comes to video games? It's like, I don't mind the idea that it's like we need to restructure the whole thing to figure out. It's like, yeah, just get it done. Figure it out. Get it fair. And as flawed as the steam refund system is now, it's still tremendously better than the old one. Wasn't there a game that prompted it to happen? Wasn't like No Man's Sky or anything. Was it? I don't remember. Total Biscuit used to talk about it. And I think he actually fought to get a mandated refund system. And now it's like two weeks or two hours, whatever, whichever one happens. Something like that, yeah. But it's like a flat thing. Like you can always get a refund as long as you meet that criteria. The only time you can get screwed is like I've had this happen before where do you ever run a steam game and it keeps on running even after you close it. I've had that happen like once or twice. And that'll that'll bone you. How come night was the game that made it happen? Oh, okay. Maybe. Yeah, because you need it in place when a game doesn't fucking work. It's like refund now. Think either a game can sit in your library for two weeks unplayed or you play two hours of it, whatever comes first. And then your refund is invalidated. And I think a GOG, not to toot their horn, but I think they have like a pretty much a flat 30 day 30 day. Yeah, it's pretty fair. If you go over two hours in steam, can you like do a personal appeal and if you can explain it and you have a history of no refunds they'll give it to you. Yeah, extreme situations. I think people were actually able to get no man's Sky refund even after two hours. It's possible it might be happening for Armor Core 6 because I actually tweeted a steam review of it where people were saying, yeah, I just I just died to the tutorial boss for fun. I was like, oh, that that first boss is pretty hard. Teaches you how to play pretty quickly, though. Well, apparently 20 June 2015 was when they implemented their Steam policy. I don't remember which game kind of prompted that, but. Acceptance and now a misplaced urge to be responsible. We've attached so many odd values to an insignificant part of playing games the industry has with every breath reinforced and ingrained into the culture of gaming. God, so this is the problem. Did you just include achievements alongside like value list things that we've attached to video games because a lot of people see value in them and we face some of them are really fun. Yeah, that can be some fun ones. Oh, yeah. Beating to finally be going after that achievement and then to do it into here, that little bloop. Yeah, pop up at the bottom. It's one of the most cathartic and satisfying things you'll ever do in your life. I hate that I just said that itself. But people downright have fucking nostalgia for that sound effect now. And it pops up in like videos for fun things. Yeah. It's the obligate achievement hunters who are the weird ones. Yeah. Ames isn't about increasing our net worth literally or figuratively. Playing games is supposed to be a relaxing or invigorating experience. No, it isn't. Boring. It's supposed to be whatever the hell the game is. To you. Yeah. Ends on you depends on the experience you're looking for, but not necessarily. He doesn't want to relax a game with the competitive games. He doesn't understand the difference between an investment and a cost. Like you're not investing in a video game you're buying really, you're buying it. And the value that you get out of it is did you feel that it justified the cost that you played? Because you're not playing to finish the game and get every achievement. You're playing to own the game and play the game. The thing is, it's so broad again because when I buy, let's just say the newest whatever, hop it in to start playing it. It's like, what are you expecting? I'm not entirely sure. I mean, I guess I hope I'm engaged. I hope I enjoy this. I hope that maybe I get through enough hours that I can feel that the price was actually not at all a knock to my account at all. I'm like, oh, okay. But what if you don't like it? It's like, I mean, you know, I guess I might be able to refund it or I might go further. The amount of experiences that come out of it, and he's sitting there like, we've cynically as a capitalistic society turned video gaming, which is supposed to be a wonderful experience where we, you know, have art and humans coexist together in a wonderful equilibrium. But now instead, we constantly think about our investment cost portfolio and our network. He's like, what are you talking about? I mean, you can forge out your own values in a society that isn't perfect. You can do that. You've got some guys just like, oh, man, I don't know if I should have paid like $20 for this when I've only played it for a couple of hours and I'm bored. And then he's sitting next to you going, this is capitalism that did this. All right, calm down. I'm just saying, you know, I'm just saying that I should have bought the other game, baby. Yeah. And video games were born in the arcades, which would charge you like 25, 50 cents per life and would purposefully kill you. In fact, even a lot of arcade games would have, would you take damage by using special abilities? So it isn't a new thing to want money for millions of dollars R&D and development, you know, and actually make profits on your, on your entertainment, work of entertainment than that way for a long time. For however long it remains so, if a 200 hour RPG doesn't keep me invested for its entire length, that's fine. Maybe it says something about how I feel towards the game itself, but not me. It doesn't make me that kind of person. Finish. What was that kind of person? You didn't like that game enough to finish it or you were, you're doing the thing that Shad was saying he did with Skyrim, where you, you play it and you enjoy it when you play it and you kind of don't want to finish it because it's an experience that you sort of want to leave open-ended. Hey, you just didn't like the game enough to put the time in to finish it. So you moved on. We just got bored and move on, exactly. Yep. I think one of the factors, sorry. These are not questions I'm looking to counter, but I guess I have to, when he says like this doesn't say anything about me, it just says something about me and my relationship with the game. It's like that might say something about you. Why are we having these conversations? Like it's a relation that reflects upon you kind of implicitly. It doesn't have to be negative or positive or anything. Like what's happening? Where did this come from? So we're just going to talk about why you don't need to complete airgames for reviews. I didn't know we're going to be going. Bring back Lewis. Yeah, Lewis was, Lewis made me laugh. Like he had a narrative at one point and he just got off the rails now. Like I don't know how he's going to tie all this back in. Yeah, it's you can't really decide whether he wants to criticize the current monetization or the achievement score hunting, that sort of achievement culture versus peer pressure versus 90s marketing where it's like, you've got to play this game because you'll be cool like Chris. How cool is Chris? He's awesome. He beats games. You know, it's just like a really weird jumbled mess. He's not exploring other perspectives either, just his own. Like everything seems so limited with this guy always. Every aspect of this video. I promise I don't mean this to brag about how cool I am, but I did just finish Baldur's Gate 3. And the only reason I played that game. Cool guy. The reason I played it. So cool. It's because of. Wow, you're a cool guy. Video regs made on Divinity Original Sin 2. I tried to play it twice and it didn't really pull me in, but I could tell there was something about it that I did really like. So when the early access for Baldur's Gate 3 came out and I was making videos for G&G and needed things to play that I could finish relatively quickly. I was like, okay, the first active in RPG I could probably do that. Really enjoyed it. And now I would honestly consider going back to Divinity because I now like Larian's work. I've played one of their games to complete the first hand. So that's a game that was in my backlog that I could look at as, oh my God, that's a game I just wasted money on. I invested all that time and I didn't even, I didn't even get out of that first beach town. But it's like, oh well, no, but clearly, clearly it had some effect on me. And I did want to continue trying to connect with that genre of games. And I just did. So, yeah. Right. And you might pick that game up later on, you know, like still have it. Finally finish it. Yeah. Finishing a game isn't even important to understanding it. Most of us walk away from playing a video game saying more about how we felt playing it than about the ending itself. And some I mean, I don't know my dude. Do most of us do that? Did you take that up? It's more so just like, what does this have to do with anything? Yeah, yeah. It's like, we don't need to finish games. Most of the time we talk about how they made us feel than the end of the game. Yeah. What are you talking about? The discussion's worthless about them anyway. So why even play them? That's what it sounds like. Like, okay. What point do you think you're making? This is so fucking weird. Yes, we have feelings toward the thing, whether or not, whether or not we spend 10 seconds or 10 hours with it. Why would you even bring this up? He's just whining. He's just, he's kind of just talking about some stuff that he's thinking. He's just rattling around in there. It's funny how Shad and now Mark have only seen like different parts of the video, but these tiny parts they can figure out. You didn't need this full thing. Like, you need two minutes of this fool. You can figure it out. I was watching when I was picking up my dinner or something. Oh, yeah? Oh, cheater. Oh, cheater. He talks about retail therapy. Sorry, he talks about retail therapy, but it almost seems like this is just his own YouTube therapy, convincing himself that it's okay that he has not finished his entire library, which is fine, but. I think Frim mentioned it. If we weren't in a strictly, like, whether or not, you talk about investment, right? He's talking about it strictly from a capitalistic point of view. We would have it from a time point of view anyway. Of course. And so would he just be like, this is the fault of chronalism, and we need to move on from it? Yeah, this is the fault of cause and effect. We need to understand that we can just do anything. You're always gonna be making trades between the things that you do always. Even if there's no money, there's time as a commodity in and of itself if you want to put it that way. Feel anything. They don't have to. There's no guarantee they will, and finishing them won't change that. Now that we're older, does it really matter if you know every secret a cool fact about a game? Nobody fucking agree with you when you said that already? No, never. I agree. I agree. We would do one there. Guys, now that we've come to be older in the past 10 minutes, don't you think that we don't need every secret? He's like, what? Yeah, 10 minutes ago, I looked at Braggs and I said, what a fucking fool. Cool. Eight-year-old and correcting someone on some anecdotal piece of trivia, not the most annoying thing to do in the world. No, this video is one of the annoying things in the world. This is. Are you venting now? I like that. He's just like, I assume that we agree. It's like, not that we agreed that Sarin did nothing wrong. Can we all just move on and say that? On what Theos just said, it's like, isn't it evident that he had a video on Sonic and someone in the comments said, you know what you said? Fun piece of trivia for you. You were actually wrong about that piece of trivia. It turns out it's not Sonic. It was Shadow that did that in the bubble that he's just like, fucking asshole. Do you get meaning out of doing that to people, correcting them? Is that it? Well, yes, I do. Yeah, that's right. I mean, this is like, I'm sorry your review was shitty. It's just like the stealing video. It's just fucking defensive bitters. It's like, let me be wrong. It's like, I am letting you be wrong. I'm correcting you. Be wrong in the privacy of your own house. And don't drag us in. You'll make a decision to be wrong on the Internet. Yeah, the sterling video was especially just like, yeah, let me be wrong and don't be bitter about it. Or also, I'll play more of your games and rate them lower. By the way, this game that you don't like is much better than the games you do like, huh? All right. Don't say stupid things publicly. It just comes all the way. Don't make me play the game more. I'll get more familiar with it. And you wouldn't like that. Yeah. So remember my code downer. It's so hard for someone to understand that when you say a projectionable things online, people object. Like, I don't understand. Nuts. Easy to have a conversation with our friends about games despite the disparity in our play times. Haven't you? It was never hard. He's still stuck on that. This is the root of his all his issues. He went through a lot, dude. Okay. He went through a lot. Someone in the mouth for invalidating you based on how much time you've put into something. Okay, wait. Let's go back there. Hang on. Hang on a minute. Easy to have a conversation with our friends about games despite the disparity in our play times. Haven't you wanted to suck someone in the mouth for invalidating you based on how much time you've put into? He sucks some more. I thought he said suck someone in the mouth. Yeah, we all did. I think we all did. Like, oh, wrong vowel. Suck someone in the mouth. Wait, so, yeah. His statement is, haven't you ever wanted to suck someone in the mouth because they've invalidated your experience based on your play time? Well, would they write? Yeah. Also, even if they were, no, I wouldn't. I didn't know. Let's never maybe want to suck them in the mouth. Someone in a video game. You're like, I don't know. I want to punch like murderers and rapists, not people who talk bad about video games. Okay, I would get like a quarter point though that he is actually showing punching while he's saying that. Yeah, good for him. What has been very... Purely incidental. When you get a call and he says, I don't care what your opinion is because you've only put 10 hours into Delta. I'd probably be like, yeah, that could be fair. Like he's like, wow, I just want to fucking punch them. I'd be like, dude. Unless you make... It's then on Jim though to make a compelling argument as to why his 10 hours in Zelda gave him a reason that he feels he can argue his position over people who have put 50 hours into the game. Because I don't necessarily think that if you haven't put as much time in as... Like I haven't put as much time into Overwatch as some of the people that have been playing Overwatch since the day it came out. But I think I can still give some thoughts on Overwatch and what I liked about it and didn't like. And I can justify that with things that are in the game because I played it. You know, like... I might have valid things to say with one second in the game. Yeah, I've never played... I've never played Overwatch but just from someone who's played, you know, first person shooters, give me like 30 seconds in the game and I could probably come to some type of opinion and like have something to say about it. Doesn't mean I'm going to be, you know, have this extensive knowledge on the game but you can still like bring something to the table. People will do this to you forever. Well, the journey to... the journey to 200 hours begins with the first 30 minutes. That's true. And not only would it be like essentially a fallacy of some kind to be like, you shouldn't be talking on this because you don't have enough time. It would also be a fallacy to be like, my opinion's better than yours because I've got more time in the game. It's like, no, it's going to be about what you guys actually said and how accurate it is. Just like we've been advocating since fucking second one of the previous video. And so that's just all people care about. Be accurate. The reason I used Overwatch as an example is because a few years ago IGN famously did a re-review of Overwatch that was a 10 out of 10 and it was written by a person who was clearly an Overwatch fanboy. So it was just like, guys, like, you just let an Overwatch superfan decide to put another number on the game three years later. Like, what's, why? How is this, how is this content? Did they even justify the numbers like some type of criteria or anything? Because it just gets people riled up when you throw a random big number out there. By the end of it is his summation. Like I don't remember a word for word but in like the abstract on it is he's like, well, while Overwatch has a significant amount of problems some of which still haven't been fixed since the first year, I just, I just am so overwhelmed with how much love and amazing happiness I've experienced in this community and playing this and I'm just like, dude. Right there, he's done. Skip over the problems and tell me about how you feel. You're not even pretending to be serious. Aren't we fully aware we'll never be able to play every game in existence and lead healthy functional lives at the the genius. Nobody wants you to and that's crazy. And that's crazy. Every single game. Do you like how he qualified it, by the way? We couldn't possibly play all of video games and be healthy. It's like, no, we just couldn't play all of video games. You could have just stopped there. It's not cost-raising. Is he not placeable? That's fine. Because yeah, why is this being presented as likes the conclusion to be drawn from this big essay? Rambling punch of nonsense. You know, we don't have to play every video game ever made. Haven't you ever thought about that, guys? What's actually cool about the sheer amount of games now you can actually kind of just focus on your niche. What if you like very, very specific types of games? Now you've got more of them. So you can actually just focus on the games you like the most. There's nothing wrong with that. There's such a wide variety of experiences on offer. You can always find something that you're interested in on the sorts of things that you want to spend your time on. This is the revelation you guys after having considered for a long time that maybe he does need to play every video game ever made. Remember what this moment Jesus Christ back then didn't he? Is this the video that you mentioned Jesus Christ earlier on? Like where he's talking about video games and his friends? Yeah. He said you'd be seeing the God of Olympus sort of things. It feels like it was fucking three days ago, but yeah. He hasn't made appointments then too. That's the craziest thing. Well, doesn't it feel like you make all of these crazy different points and then you're trying to tie it all up and you say the most agreeable possible statement in the world. Let's agree, guys. You can't play all of video games. And then as he was right in it, he was like, oh, fuck, what if you could? You can't do it in a healthy way. There we go. You can, everyone can agree with this, right? Right? It's just like, was that what the video was about? I didn't catch that. An agreeable video. This video kind of reminds me of the meme where the guy is putting a bunch of cardboard flames around him and then he's like rolling around in the fetal position like as if he's oh god, the house is on fire. Like, but I don't even want to be like mean because to me, he's just like seemingly nice, insecure guy who's just kind of talking his way through what he's feeling, turning it into a video. He's thinking out loud, for sure. I want to be him. Well, it's the kind of thing that I remember singing this about. I forgot what the name of the video is, but don't keep it a video about how bad like reviewers are, you know, like mainstream ones. And it was just like, fuck, now I heard all these talking points, like all of these better explained 10 years ago by Total Biscuit. What the hell's going on? It's like, well, cycles, man. And there's people who haven't heard all of those points. There's people who don't even know who Total Biscuit is now and there's people who didn't know he was when he was actually in his prime. So, you know, you need to recycle them again because apparently this guy feels like all of this stuff is relatively new what he's talking about. And we're all sitting like, what the fuck? There are people who are in new gaming channels right now who are researching game analysis and going back and watching Total Biscuit. So like, how is that different from sourcing a book? You read on something. Oh, I wish it worked that way. I feel like most people don't tend to go back to all the channels unless they're already familiar with them. A lot of people just don't research period. They're just like, oh, well, stream of consciousness. I'm sure it'll be great. I can't see it being impossible though that there's a 16-year-old kid that hears about Total Biscuit, gets curious about it, goes back and watches some videos. And by the time he's 19, he has a good gaming channel. If there are any 16 to 19-year-old gamers in chat right now have never heard of the name Total Biscuit, go find him and watch all of his top popular videos about gaming. If there are any 16 to 17-year-old gamers in the chat, this isn't a chat for adults, just to be clear. Yeah, I love it. Welcome to a point where I just said to, actually, if you're any age, check him out. He's awesome. Yeah. No, he's great. He's actually my number one inspiration for starting a channel. He's awesome. Like, she got to meet him in person briefly after a panel. Super cool guy. Was he a biscuit? Just so I know. He was technically a biscuit. He was totally a biscuit. But remember, in League of Legends, they added the Total Biscuit of regeneration. Think around the Total Biscuit of that elastic. No, those things are too much. Starcraft 2 has his voice as an announcer pack you can buy. Oh, yeah, that's right. He's also, he plays the mobster in Awesome Knots. He's like, you know, actually. Yeah, I love the co-optional ganger in that game. Like, Jesse Cox plays a character as well. But no, I would love for a gaming discourse to take a couple lessons from Total Biscuit, maybe not a social media. But, you know, from his gaming discourse was amazing. He was one of the most he tried to, like, self-correct. He would be responsible with his, with what he said. He would try to take his job seriously as an industry professional, which is pretty rare nowadays. He sets so much more integrity. He's practically the post-avoy for integrity on YouTube. Absolutely. At the same time. So why do we still give so much reverence to such a small part of our hobby, which has bred such awful rhetoric? Why do we let unethical industry practice and child focused marketing pushes to treat every purchase as a lifelong commitment? Nobody does. No one does it at you. Just screaming into the void. Lifelong purchase, bro. It was part of the marketing even. Even the, like, the hypercapitalist monsters that just want to turn everything into money would be, like, lifelong. I don't know about that. Yeah, you're like a bitch. No, give us just $80 now and then another $80 next year. That's what we want. Why do we stress it? Let it go. Play until you're satisfied and don't feel bad about not finishing it. It's served its purpose. We've forgotten the primary purpose of playing games is to I can't wait for you to tell me tell me you fucking gas. I know what this is. After all this video, I have no idea what he's going to say. This is how little I know. It probably won't even play games. Because I feel like when people say that they don't even say something really agreeable, like, you know, having fun or, you know, socializing with your friends or something where it's like, okay, not necessarily, but that doesn't make me angry that you said it. A lot of the times they say something where it's like, oh, you may be angry. This one, as you just said, there are easy answers. If he goes with fun, I'll let it pass, but let's see what he does. Fine. It's to play them. It's not to subscribe to a fictional world for the rest of our lives. It doesn't come with the price tag of needing to interact with every piece of media it's related to. Another industry practice, great for quantity. That's the point. This one coming from. What's the reason? Yeah. Now he's talking about how when you buy it, you get compelled to consume third party stuff. So it's like, well, the most common reason you do that is because you're super invested in the fucking world to begin with. I was talking about this on Friday night tights about how back in the day, our walls was so fucking engaging and top notch that people would be like, I want to play games related to this. I want to read books related to this. Comic books. The Lord of the Rings games. Yeah, Lord of the Rings has the same thing. These days though, it'd be like, do you want to see Ray in a video game? He's like, no. No. I don't see Ray anywhere. I don't see on our poster. No, lucky for you. She's got a movie that'll have a game, surely. I bet even Daisy Ridley is like, I kind of would like it if I had another big role, to be honest, if I could pick. She's broke. Like, what are they going to do? Her and like, Amelia Clark is cursed and Ray she's gonna make a new Jedi order. She's going to train a bunch of Jedi's. It'll be great. Yeah, more. That's just what the Star Wars fandom want to see. That's just what they want to see. Honestly, I Ray and Finn deserve some type of redemption, but Disney just doesn't have the talent to do it. They if they haven't learned anything from that. So I have no faith in that movie at all. No. Yeah. No. I don't want to see Finn or Ray anymore. They have three movies. I don't want to see Star Wars anymore. I don't want to see the Star Wars. The Star needs to end. And we're season three. We need to have peace. Give a piece of chance. And we'll just have like all of us. I want to see Star piece. A silk is going to suck so bad that they're going to not make Andor season two. Andor is going to be the one that suffers. Well, I already suffered. I'm pretty sure it got scuttled down from like, was it going to be five seasons at one point? Is it going to be five to two? I think it was at least three. And now it's two. Yeah. How many people said they didn't watch it because of Kenobi and Boba Fett? Yeah. Like that combo right there was so powerful. They don't make sense. It should have come out after Rogue One. That would have been fine. It would have been fine. Yeah. When people can remember who this guy is. Yeah. And then EFAP community start telling people to watch Andor. There's only so much we could do. OK. Yeah. That show has had some really, really good word of mouth like in general around the internet from what I've seen. People tried. So that's good. Yeah. Because like the biggest weird of mouth project seemed to be like Squid Game, Arcane, Andor to an extent. Like it does work somewhat, but it can't it can't survive if it's just weird. Yeah, the biggest problem I find with Andor is that you have to get through this Ludge known as Disney Plus to get to it. Like we've heard so many bad things about how, you know, they take a movie down their own Disney Plus original movie down after three months. They take their own Disney Plus shows down after five months. And then and 90 percent of the new original content is garbage. And you like dig through this Ludge and you get to like one or two decent pieces of media. And and they don't do any physical releases on any of their content. Like I would love to buy Andor. I buy Andor tomorrow. But a friend of mine, a friend of mine who who I do some stuff, he has Andor on Blu-ray that he got in an Asian mall that they do a really good transfer of it. He's in a steel book. It's like legit. And I was like, well, where do you like, I'll buy that right now. He's like, no, he's like, you can't. And it's like, it's just. Yeah, Pacific Mall type deal. Oh, wait, are you from Toronto? I was like, wait a minute. This guy said Asian mall. This guy's got to be talking about P-Mall. I don't care where you are in the world. Like you were from Toronto. I just didn't want to say. I knew I thought. Yeah, no, I remember that one of you was Canadian, but I couldn't remember who it was exactly. Soon as you said that the Asian mall, like he's got to be talking about P-Mall. Yeah, I'm Canadian as well. I'm from America. Yeah, I'll buy the back alley version of Andor and then just like track down the rider and just like slip it 20 into his pockets. Like, here you go, buddy. Good job. I just want to back up what Mark was saying. You could find anything at that mall. Like it's just incredible. I think it would be kind of crazy, though. If Netflix did like a physical Blu-ray of Arkane and cyberpunk edge runners and Disney Plus did a fan door or something. Something that make it expensive, make it only for people who want to get it and just see how it does. Because I feel like if a lot of people end up buying it, you might be like, oh, maybe that's one of the things that they watch, which they should test that out with Arkane. Arkane is the one that's worth the risk. Make it proper, give them a nice box set and like the real fans will come. Mm-hmm. Content related to something you like, but built entirely on strategies to drive invested players towards being guaranteed buyers. We're cautious of spoilers for games we picked up once months ago, played for two hours and keep telling ourselves we'll go back to someday. As if we owe it to ourselves to avoid being part of the community around those games until we know why? Why can't you have a single good faith interpretation of any of these things happen? I was thinking the same thing. It's the same thing over and over again. It's never elaborate at a point. Just because that conversation comes up all the time when someone says like, blah, blah, blah, and you're, whoa, you just spoiled the end of RDR2, I haven't played it yet. And it's just like, you should have played it by now. And then there's a bit of a back and forth. And the ultimate thing is just like, yeah, probably, I probably should have played it by now, but I'd appreciate it if you can find a way to make your point without mentioning the spoiler. And then the other business is like, yeah, sure. Okay, fine. Genius combine this notion with the notion of backlogs and that's more lost purchases of games than anything being like guaranteed from having people get into on the ground floor, as it were. But also Red Dead Redemption 2 is a prequel. It's not even, I just, what he's saying is like, oh, your obsession with spoilers is like making you stay out of the cultural conversation for no reason at all. And it's like, maybe I fucking like it when I get surprised. Leave me alone. Jeez. Like John, John Marston lives spoilers for Red Dead Redemption 2. Wow. About us. And in the same breath, we stress how important it is not to gatekeep each other no matter how comprehensively we know a specific piece. No, you can gatekeep. No, no, no. Gatekeep. It's okay. It's just better. Please gatekeep. Please. I'll gatekeep as I go. The fuck out of the things you love. Piece of media. Listen to how silly we sound. We can't talk about- Oh, I've been listening to you over the phone. Hi. Every time. I'm sounding very silly. Think about something or look at anything about it because we played it a couple times and really want to try it again some day and even though we're super interested but don't have the time or really the desire to go back to it at the moment, we won't let ourselves indulge and said thing in other ways we want to right now. I don't, anyone want to decide for that one? I'm so lost. Yeah. I'm not very interested in trying to figure it out. He doesn't have a point. I said that from four minutes in. What do you mean? That was the trove of section. It was so important. It just seems to be the most interesting part is childhood trauma. Isn't it lame that I feel the need to hold off on engaging with something to any extent until I played the game or I guess extended to watch the movie, read the book or whatever. But I mean, again, that's up to you. It's not necessarily a bad thing to try and abstain from as much as possible until you get to play it yourself. Like you said, you don't want to get spoiled. This video could be titled makes so much more sense if it was titled Dear Steam Library. This is why I can't play all of you. Dear Steam Library, where do you get off? What kind of weird self-inflicted punishment have we invented for ourselves? What exactly are we afraid of? Being someone who talks about this. It's you. Oh, it's this guy. Stop doing this. Jesting in this video. No, no, he's got the collar now. He's popping the collar now. There we go. This is some Yakuza cosplay. This is such a wow. Oh, yeah, he's serious. Stop saying we. Stop saying I. Everyone, there is a lot of we in this, isn't there? Yeah, including everyone. It is a lot of we in the top left corner as well. Me in this. That's true. There is a lot of we in the top left-hand corner there. Yeah. Wow, I can't believe it. We are in it. I can't believe that. We are gamers, you guys. We are one. We are going to touch a weiner. Gamers unite. Gamers rise up. Yep. I can't believe that bearded man is only 30 years old. I can't believe this. Crazy. Stuff for the sake of making videos. You'd assume I'm acting like I've liberated myself from the clutches of nefarious marketing strategies. I don't know. Maybe a little. You sound like you've reached an enlightened level of your life. And all you've said is, you know, you don't have to play every single game. I have no idea. What are the point of these games? Intoxic gaming culture. You sent us all standing in front of a wall of games. Not true. My need to be games is the worst it's ever been. Can you imagine? You're all serious. Story analysis of a game and. Maybe all of your analysis is actually detrimental. Maybe you just need to be normal. Not getting to the end. Or if someone in your comments wanted to have a discussion with you and you had to clarify, you never finished whatever it was you were talking about. The stigma exists whether or not you adhere to it. And I know plenty of people who won't. Wait, hold on. We were one like 15 seconds. It sounds like he is now talking about it in the context of reviews. My need to be games is the worst it's ever been. Can you imagine making a two hour story analysis of a game and not getting to the end? Or if someone in your comments wanted to have a discussion with you and you had to clarify, you never finished whatever it was you were talking about. Yeah. So the first thing I just wouldn't do. I don't think I would make a story analysis without finishing the story. Oh, I thought you meant have you ever finished watching or like you watch a two hour story analysis and you don't finish it? I thought that's what he meant. I thought you meant writing the story analysis. Why the fuck would anyone... Yeah, I thought you meant writing the story analysis. Why would you analyze a story for two hours without having finished the story? That's weird. Because, yeah, he said in the comments, you know, you don't want to engage with something in the comment section of a video presumably that you've made about, you know, that game because you haven't finished it. You don't know everything about it yet. So it does seem like it is about talking about things that you haven't completed. It might be fine. Well, there are contexts you could do it right. Like you could do a two hour breakdown of the two first episodes of a Soaker and you'd be like, yeah, but the whole season isn't out yet. And you're like, yeah, I'm analyzing the story as is right now. Exactly. But if you were, if you were to say, like I played halfway through Bioshock and then did a full story breakdown, I'd be like, what? Well, what would be the point? Why? Why? It might be just a desire to consistently be thought of as a person who knows what's going on and knows everything that's happening in the industry and what the good games are and why they're good and what the bad games are and why they're bad. Well, I'm excited about them. They seem to become posers, man. They just, they pretend they've played a whole ton of games that they might have dabbled with. They might have played a demo of. They might have played a beta of. And then they act like they're an expert on it. And I think that that, that's honestly, it's a much bigger problem when a YouTuber does it than when a random person in comments does it though. Oh, okay. I believe it's all the way. A real gamer will sniff that shit out in two seconds, though. Like a real gamer will sniff that out. And I don't know why they would even take that approach. It's just, we lose your credibility instantly. If your video was about why you couldn't keep going, then I would consider that a valid take as well. But if you really wanted to do an invested full breakdown of a story, but you didn't want to consume all of it, you couldn't be asked to something, I'd be like, that's a really strange approach. And then you. Again, it's just. Value your opinion then. Yeah. I mean, people are going to obviously find you to be inaccurate. Obviously. I feel that your perspective is incomplete. And I may not have a reason to it because you have incomplete knowledge. And then you're like, yeah, but it's my perspective regardless. You're like, okay, but that's their perspective. Regardless. Exactly. You just got to push on ahead regardless. You got to truck on and not be too insecure about getting those kinds of responses because you will. You always will. Sorry, guys. I know I was just going to say, this just seems like it's born of being frustrated by being held to a higher standard because you have a megaphone and you're talking about video games. You're going to be held to a higher standard and knowing a lot more about knowing your shit more than the average person who may or may not have played the game. You're now saying, I'm an expert. I'm making these long videos and giving reviews that could potentially affect people's purchases. And so people will hold you to a higher standard. This is this just kind of seems based on I don't want to have to be held to a higher standard. I want to play a little bit of games and not to worry about if I'm a completionist or if I know everything about the game. Just kind of silly. I think it's his internal framing of I'm a video game expert, so people will expect me to be a video game expert. Therefore, I must have the correct opinion and I don't have time to play all the games. So you've just got to deal with the fact that I'm not going to finish these games, but I'm still going to be an expert because I would. I'd say the thing that people probably value was not like purported wide sweeping knowledge about absolutely everything, but not very sophisticated knowledge on anything. It seems to me that people really like expertise on specific things, like a focus on a specific genre of game or a specific franchise, or just more like limited focus that seems more valuable to a lot of people. Then just being like that I'm the every man with sort of general, well, general knowledge. Yeah, but if you say you got expert knowledge and everything, it's not enough time in the day to be an expert on everything. Yeah, all you really need to do is just be honest about what your experience is with the games are. So that's why it often helped. Yeah, if you do make content and you're comfortable with streaming, streaming while you're playing the games that you're covering, I think it's been helpful for me to be like, okay, I'm going to really commit to getting through this game and actually forming some opinions that the people who are watching me are going to think of as insightful. And that you can't hide when you're forming those opinions. I mean, as we saw on the Ragnarok episode, when you're forming those opinions, people can really see quickly if you know what you're talking about and you're approaching things in a fair manner and actually focusing on the things you should be focusing on. Because if not, you're just going to sound silly and be like, oh, this game sucks. Oh, like whining about how hot everything is without using any of your upgrades? Yeah, that could be. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yep. Hmm. It's not only to expose yourself. No one would do that. No one would do that. No one has some madness at the utmost degree. The stigma exists whether or not you adhere to it. And I know plenty of people who won't start on a video until they get to the end of the subject matter. The way I play games for videos is the same way I play them for fun. I'd be having this conversation with myself or a friend if YouTube didn't exist. Actually, in the process of making- I can believe that you would talk to yourself about this. There's actually some introspection possibilities here, talking about how you felt, how your whole life came together, why you feel traumatized by Lewis. I nearly said Sean for some reason. Sean! Hello, people. But yeah, you didn't have to put it in a video. Just saying. I'm just saying it's an option. Making this specific video, I have talked about it with a friend or two. That's actually how I got started. A friend of mine told me I should just write down how I feel about games and then put it online. It's a time. Oh, your friend is not a great friend. Remember, he described his friends earlier, the people who just owed him if he doesn't have the right games. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's true. Your friends are really not good friends. His friend was like, Hey, dude, record what do you read and put it online. Put it online and do it. Yeah, dude. Just totally unfiltered. He's like, wow, do you think it's insightful and worthy and people would approve it? And he's like, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I do. We all do. You're saying use peer pressured use peer pressured into making this shitty video. Just like the games. Is that what you're saying? Don't know. Don't know, maybe. Yeah. Yeah, press upload after you buy RDR2. Coward. Oh, Jesus. It's fun, but it's different now that my visibility is approaching a considerable milestone. Imposter syndrome is kicking it alive. I don't want to be. Kicking it alive. Kicking it alive. That's an odd thing. The expression is that somebody is dead. You kick it. And then it's like, oh, my God, I'm alive. I'm alive. Thanks for kicking me, Doc. It doesn't surprise me that he would be getting senses of imposter syndrome because it seems like this guy has some pretty severe social anxiety that he's just dealing with. Well, his friends will mean to him throughout his whole life about video games. And the same that way. What is imposter syndrome but being afraid that you're a poser? Pretty much. Doc, based with my analysis or miss something in my retrospectives, I don't want to end up with the worst take on the Internet and get a laugh. And yet here we are. Always comes down to him being laughed at or being exposed or abandoned in some way. Yeah, Mr. Enjoy everything for what it is. Don't take it. Yeah, he's got to enjoy that thing. I think he has just discovered a self-fulfilling prophecy. Yeah, it seems like if you don't want to put in the time and effort and the worry of being fact-driven and having all the details, then just fix your format. Do an impressions format or doing here's how I feel about this game. This is my personal experience of this game. And I don't and be just self-aware. I was like, yeah, I did not read the rickies. I did not look at 10,000 hours of gameplay and study every move. I just played the game blind. And this is what I felt like it. Let me know what you feel in the comments and just like that's your new format because you're not going to put in the time to be exactly factual and specific about everything. And shock horror. I was just saying that shock horror, what could also do, right? If he says something that ends up being embarrassing you wrong, he could just own and say, oh, I got that wrong. Thanks for pointing it out. And I'm glad I know it's a great future. Yeah, it's not a personal attack because you got something wrong. Yeah, and it's not the end of the world that you get something wrong. Exactly. You really got to learn to actually take that on board. Yeah, and see it as a valuable character building thing. And it can actually be a tremendous positive by being wrong because it just enables you, you know, now you know how to be more right. And so too many people are afraid of it. He doesn't have a normal relationship with video games. We all do. So it's hard to even see his perspective. Like this isn't a normal relationship. You're right. This isn't a normal way of playing video games or relating to video games or hard consumption in general. It's just bizarre. It's strange. Yeah, everything you guys are saying is making sense. And I'm just thinking like if he's looking at it, he wouldn't have it click. Like he just wouldn't understand what we're saying. This is what we call the... This is the bad friendship meta that we get into. His relationship with video games is way too heavily influenced by things beyond the art itself. Yeah, it's also just like wanting to have your cake and eat it too. If you're going to do retrospectives, you got to be factual. Are people going to call you out on it? Well, yes, you don't have to like make videos on things. But if you do, like, yeah, you're making arguments. You put them out there. You got to expect some pushback, especially if you get things wrong, of course. Like you can treat it as much as you want of like, yeah, it's just like me having a conversation with my friends. But it's not because a bunch of people who don't know you, like they're going to watch it. And that, well, they're just not going to be nearly as interested as like your friends are in your personal perspective, like how you feel and your history. They're not going to be familiar with that. Like you're presenting it to strangers. Of course they're going to be critical if they, especially if they don't know all of this. Because like if they watch one of your other videos, they're not going to know about all of this, potentially, you know, all of this being baked into it about how you had to rent video games and then it like, and then Lewis and everything. And how would it still be this desire to maybe start every video with that Lewis story? You probably start every video with the Lewis story. Lewis and his uncle. The theme of his channel. Talked a lot about him. What if he's the hero? What if he was the one that was trying to get this guy on track? And he's just trying to sully his good Lewis name. I think we need to hear Lewis's side of the story. I've never blamed Lewis in any of this. What is this? What Lewis is trying to say to us? But I mean, are we even sure that Lewis is real, or is he just a figment of his imagination? I just, I just gotta make this shit up. This channel called Lewis. This is a video called My Truth. My side of the story or My Response. This just begins with you may have heard of a channel and a video called You Don't Need to Finish Game. I do. And on admitting that you're wrong about something, nobody's going to dislike you for admitting that you're wrong. In fact, probably the opposite. And so like doubling down is the worst thing you can do. And that's just pure ego at work. You tell me I'm wrong, you're a paid actor. Or in my own face, huh? I guess it isn't so different after all. I guess the problem's been here since the beginning. What if the thing I'm thinking about right now about a specific game, if I vocalize it? What if there's something I missed? What if I end up looking silly or saying it? What if I don't know? I don't know. Your friends will leave you. You'll find out who your real friends are. Your dog will leave you. And see if any of them compel you. Maybe go back and play the game again or don't. That's it. I'm just matching is like dog looking and I'm like, oh man, those facts are wrong. And it's like shaking his head and walking out the doors. Everybody's disappointed them. And it gives me a way to avoid that. Everything needs to be perfect. I can't join the discussion if I'm not done yet. I'm not valid until I finish it. The grand conclusion. Or mistaking what showed up in which game. I was right. I'm scared of being wrong about how I feel. Oh my God. To an extent, we're all scared of being wrong about how. Wow. He's turning it around. It's coming together at the end. It wasn't about how you don't need to be finishing games. You know, the story was about what you needed, not what you wanted. And what you needed was realizing that the opinions of others dictate your life. Lewis, he's hovering over you as specter. Passing you with shadow. Following you. Lewis is a halo. Your error about how you're not good enough. How, you know, you're inadequate. Your perspective is inadequate. You haven't played enough games. And you need to break free from Lewis. You got to break free from his hold. Sorry. I want to finally ask who the fuck is Lewis? This is a live image of Lewis on the screen right now. I got him on stream. Lewis is nowhere and everywhere. That is what's hovering over this man right now. Traumatizing him to childhood. Making sure that he has to finish the games or he's not going to be invited to the birthday party. You can't get up from your PC without having finished the game you're currently playing. Seriously, did you get platinum on like one and one better? This photo was taken when this girl got to chapter 19 of this game that said the final chapter and she's like, I'm going to go out and have some food. And then Lewis was like, are you? Is that what you're going to do? How hungry are you? Are you sure about that? Yeah, I'm pretty sure. Are you okay? Okay. Yeah, that's fine. Okay. I hope nothing bad happens on the way to your dumbass restaurant. No, it's true. A lot of people point this out. Lewis and E.R. have never been seen in the same room. So I'm just saying. Something to think about. That's what E.R. is up to these days. I see. I see. E.R. is a dirty Lewis. If he manages to jump all the day, we've got to call him Lewis every once in a while. Oh, he doesn't even know. He doesn't even know what's coming. He's like, what the fuck? I can imagine like a Fight Club style ending where, you know, spoilers for Fight Club, you haven't seen it. But wow, spoilers for Fight Club, what? No, maybe I shouldn't say. I was just thinking like, you know, it's like, yeah, and then Lewis told me about this game. He's like, wait, who's Lewis? There's no Lewis in there. He never existed. And you're like, what? We are all Lewis. It's like a flashback. I hope he didn't make that shit up. Lewis is the legend at this point. You know what? It's like Socrates. It doesn't even matter if he was a real person. What really matters is the lessons and the ideas and the philosophy of this person. And, you know, the person doesn't have to be real to really change the world. So maybe it's the ideas and what they represent that's most important. Yeah, the trauma of Lewis transcends that. And my heart, Lewis is real and alive. And he's out there right now. And he agrees with all of us. Is Lewis joining the team of philosophers and EFAP histories? Because it's kind of funny, right? The one of them just be called Lewis. At the end of the video is like, in all of our hearts, Lewis is. Thank you for watching. And by the way, hitting this point with 20 seconds left to go, I think Theo said the last two seconds. So you were fucking wrong. Oh, no. Last 20. I was so close. Miles away. And I don't think we should be. 18 minutes. Oh, shit. It was the last two seconds. 18 minutes. Theo is correct. I should never have doubted Theo's predictability. 18 minutes preamble. The video sucked ass, dude. I don't even know what to say. It is incredibly funny that this like spends all this time setting up a straw man that nobody ever fucking says just to be like, you don't have to be that way. You're like, I know. It's not your fault. It's not your fault. You could literally cut this into five seconds. You could do the first time he does like, I thought I had to beat every game. But I didn't. Yeah. Also my friends were shit. I mean, it's like that was that was pretty fascinating. But I don't know if it crosses that threshold. No, it was fast. It's going to be mildly interesting. It's interesting. It's not fascinating because again, it just so much of this just was strange. It was bizarre. That was a very weirdly structured. Yeah. That's it. That's the narrative, the narrative of the trauma and everything is stuck to that. We could roll with that. But then he just went off the rails with all sorts of. It is intermittently interesting. No, intermittently curious. OK, yeah, that's like it's few videos ever reach that high accolade to be intermittently interesting over a period of 19 minutes. Well, that takes us to video number three. And I'm rather excited about this one. Oh, no. It's a bit of philosophy, actually. Oh, yes. I love philosophy. That's why I figured you might want to stay for this. Yeah, maybe I'll stick around. OK. Well, so does anyone need to go because I got to make room for two more people's? Does anyone can anyone leave at least temporarily? Because I think we got Shad for another hour. And he's probably going to want to at least see a bit of this next one. If you are right. Rarely, if need be. This is my only plan for the day. So I'm just playing armor core six and being on EFAP. If it's all right, Mark, I will totally grab you back in. I'll keep you if we were allowed more than 10 but Discord's a dick. No, no, Brooks can attest to we Canadians are very polite. Although we're low. Hey, hey, Mola, you know, a chat program that allows more than 10 is Zoom. Oh, my God. To be fair, to be fair to Discord, you can get more than 10. You have to be in a server though. You can't be in a normal core. But then all the layout gets fucked. Having more than 10 people. I know there is. Yeah, there's a point there. Okay, well then, if we're ban hammering temporarily, of course, I'll take a hit. I'll jump off as well. But maybe I'll come in later if you need. So I was going to say, you came in a bit late. John, you'd be welcome to come back tomorrow and visit us. I will be doing my best to defeat the clean sweeper, but I beat Baltas metal might know what I'm talking about. The clean sweeper? Oh, maybe not. I might be ahead of you. I don't know. Yeah, the armored core boss, but yeah, this game's really good. It's very difficult though, but very good. I mean, I can also make some space. I mean, I'm not doing anything else. How long are you going to be up for? I don't know, probably another four or five hours. We'll try and grab you for a little bit longer for now then, Mel. I mean, I'll be there tomorrow. And then you have to get up really early to join us, okay? Really early. You have to finish this. I could have said Lewis otherwise. You say that like he's not in your house right now. Oh, shit. Lewis is calling from inside the house. How did you make now metal cozy and snug in his bed and Lewis standing over him? Peering it to his soul. Did you beat armored core six metal? I only did one stream. Oh, he's coming. He came out yesterday. Everyone snores to size metal. You couldn't do that. You couldn't play for every waking hour of your life. You had obligations or other things you wanted to do. Wow. Well, I'll just be here watching always. All right. All right, I'll hold that now though. But yeah, see you guys again later. Take it easy. Have a good night. Bye, bye, later, man. See you later. Well, I'll flew both then or does anybody else leave? I didn't get who was leaving. Well, one sec, because we're getting we're getting Mr. Sitch in. Oh, my God. And I think the plan is to get that Adam guy as well. Oh, yeah. But we'll see. I don't know if he's around or not. We'll find out from his boyfriend as soon as he comes in. Join loser. Whoa. That's the nice way of putting it. The nice way. Wow. Yeah, you don't. You don't want to see me when I'm Lewis. I get real fucking. All right. Well, I'll give it give it a sec. Oh, does he not know how discord works? What do you mean? Do you know how? Have you got other online friends that don't know? Oh, you heard me say that he's gay. I won't join one of the highest of accolades. He's waiting on zoom for an invite. Is Adam on the way on a that's what I'm looking to find out. There is. Hello. Hey, is Adam coming on? I mean, I messaged him. He's he's around. So he'll respond to it. Itch. I don't know if you know it's itch, but more has been talking a lot of smack about you. I heard you talking smack about zoom. I know. They've been saying that you're like a zoom simp. That guy's zoom is so bad. We would talk about it. Really? Don't worry. I like I like that. Shad here is trying to stir the pot. I heard you also smack talking zoom. OK, don't try to pretend like you're like that. You try to stir it. But OK, zoom is both good and gay. There we go. There's my official stance and I'm sticking to it. Well, listen, there's nothing wrong with being gay. So I agree. Little bit of homo in the morning. Nothing wrong with that. Yeah. OK, but a little bit of anyone here still uses team speak once in the morning in the morning. That's a little bit of radio show speak. They speak is like grandpa's fire. I still use it sometimes. Yeah, grandpa. My mind has its own server. So anyone still use AOL instant messenger? Oh, obviously. Yeah. MSN. MSN. Serving as a way. Ah, what the fuck? Who's skipping around? That's what happened. The second day I was confused because it was playing for me and you guys were all talking a lot. What the fuck is going on? Yeah, it was playing on my end. I just saw the title of the video. Yeah, this opening still is already sending like fighter flight. We have covered Wisecrack in prior E5 episodes. It's never been good. They're a special team that makes better. Wait a minute. Look at that logo. Is that like a donkey? But also it's the horse from like it's the night in chess with bunny ears and a monocle. That's cool. Well, that's sort of what donkeys are kind of like that. It's they're a log. Yeah, that's true. So it's a donkey, but it's a knight and he's wearing a monocle. That's kind of charming. Wisecrack is one of those poorly named channels. The leaf hand thing is kind of cool too. Not bad. All right. What? The Better Help logo. Yeah, see sponsored. Yeah, down there. It's right next to the line. That's very big. Wisecrack Edition sponsored by Better Help. I was about to say what a help. We needed to call them up after this video. I'm thinking, man, geez. Tell the little Adam to mess with me on discord and then we will cycle if unless he's busy. This video is brought to you. But OK, so let me intro this. It's called the trolley problem is a joke. This was made aware to me by a super chat. Actually, they said they released this and I put it on my I should check this out in the future to see if I don't even want to say anything. I just want to let the video go. It's such a video. OK. All right. This video is brought to you by Better Help. Should run now because it's not funny. Oh, my God. Is it not going? Oh, my God. Yeah, there it goes. Yeah, if it's not working for you, just rejoin that should fix it. Chocolate donkey. Depending on who you are. The trolley problem is there. There we go. It's best or worst thought experiment. All a philosophy. I don't even know how it would have gone. I didn't know that there was anybody. I didn't know it was a polarizing one. It sounds like the best or worst. What? It's just like once you walk into the philosophy factory and you start learning about how thoughts are made, then they give you the test and you're like trolley problem. Yeah. Or nay. And if you say nay, they're like, all right, we don't have to bother. You need to do something else. You don't belong here. If I can like really blunt. Yeah, if I can put it in really simple terms, it's that philosophers are generally these days not convinced that the trolley problem has much explanatory force, but rather it's just an assessment of the persuasive force of a given like ethical idea. Okay. So it's not used for like the resolution of like any ethical issues or ethical dilemmas, partially because it has really low resemblance to real ones that we encounter, but it's just sort of a test of how we think about morality and what is intuitively persuasive. I think we encounter the trolley problem constantly in life. Everywhere just on a lower scale. The trolley problem is basically ontology versus consequentialism. Is it action based or outcome based? Yep. And so yeah, the idea that I could see someone taking issue with it are the fundamental of like, with simplifying it too much, you think you have answers as a result of this, but you don't actually, because there's so much more to consider. In which case, I feel like anybody would say, of course, there's no one example of anything that would like fully encompass any kind of deep philosophical question, but at the same time, only the trolley problem was pretending to be anything more than it is. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's a pretty simple thought experiment, right? It's not like the only thing that can help you guide you through life. You know what I mean? It's not the only philosophical principle you need. I guess maybe if I'm being charitable, he's talking about its use in the field, because I'm sure, as I'm sure you're familiar with, there's so many permutations and people just keep making permutations. Well, because the most well known one is the doctor, right? Taking organs from one person to save five people is like a variation of the problem that... The variation where you're on an overpass on the same trolley situation with Batman and everything. Yeah. A statistic choice, Spider-Man one. Or like the variation where you are the one person tied to the tracks and you can somehow make the decision to turn the trolley... Oh, I haven't heard that one. That's it. That's it. That's an interesting one. What Brooks just said, I thought you were saying like the Fat Man one where you can push the Fat Man. I thought you said like, and you're Spider-Man. It's like... Wait, wait, wait. I wouldn't matter if I was Spider-Man. The comic to say you don't kill. You have the Fat Man one, but then you just have the Fat Man but also Spider-Man's there. So you just got to... Just waving at you. You can do it. You can push the Fat Guy. Push both of the trade tracks by Spider-Man. One way you're the single individual tied to the tracks is really funny because it really polarizes the question as compared to how it usually goes because of self-preservation in people. Done. It's an incredibly clear way to make the stakes of moral philosophy understandable and practical. For others, it turns ethics into a watered-down thought experiment with no basis in reality. Gaining massive popularity with The Good Place popping up recently and a knock at the cabin. With The Good Place. I thought it was just one of the most well-known. Apparently it gained popularity recently because it was shown in these TV shows slash movies and was like, okay, I guess. Okay, okay. Okay. Yeah, I thought it was well-known. I thought it was well-known, yeah. I wasn't aware of that. I wasn't aware of that. Yeah, I learned... There's value in it as well, well beyond just thought experiments. Watching people... I remember, has anyone seen Vsauce's take on all of this? Yeah. Really, really fucking good videos. And it's not just because of the fact that people have to sort of wrestle with the idea, but that they tried to set it up so it was spontaneous. It was believed by the people participating. But at the same time, they had to do precautionary stuff like we could do some serious permanent damage to people if we don't do this carefully. Because... That's right. I consider the ethics have even been conducting the experiment with real people who didn't know. Yeah, and it's... The fascinating part, of course, is watching what people do. And, of course, freezing is something that happens for a lot of people. And then people who are just charged forward and they're like, I know what I have to do. I have to do this. This is what I do. And then some people just stare and they're like, I feel like if I touch anything, you know, I might fuck things up worse, so I'm not going to touch anything. And watching all of that and talking about it, like, this is what I mean. The value of the trolley problem is calling it a joke, which is the title of the video, by the way. It's just like, I don't know, man. It's a lot to get out of it. It just makes me think that you're stupid. I thought of one example. I don't know if it really follows in with a trolley problem, but imagine, wasn't it... Which flight was it? Which plane that crashed that was supposed to hit either the Pentagon or the two towers? Wasn't that rumored to have been taken down by some of the passengers? Or was that a conspiracy theory? I don't remember. But I still remember Flight 93. Was that the one where the passengers stormed the cockpit and then it crashed the field in Pennsylvania? Right, so if that's... I think I do remember that. Yeah, so in that scenario, supposedly from what I remember what happened is that the passengers heard or somehow understood that these terrorists were going to use the plane as a weapon, and so they took it upon themselves to redirect the plane into the ground, basically, to prevent potentially worse effects. Now, they didn't necessarily have all the information that the trolley problem would have, but wouldn't that kind of be a similar, more scenario where they can face potential, like certain death or potential potentially more damage to other people? Oh, meaningful deaths or a meaningless death, pretty much. Those are your options. These situations come up a lot. Mm-hmm, yeah. Like I said, in all kinds of different ways, it doesn't necessarily have to relate to death, but it can relate to harm. It can relate to different kinds of harm, maybe not even physical, but, you know, it's everywhere. These kinds of choices. Look how many things we've discussed, and this guy said, like, 30 seconds worth of bullshit, man. Hey, this is gonna be a pretty clear. This is gonna be a pretty clear. Look at you, you're prejudging it. You're loosing it. No. Serving as a way of understanding Joel's actions in the season finale of The Last of Us, this thought experiment has become one of the biggest examples of philosophy and popular culture. Now, for those of you who haven't taken Philosophy 101, or for those of you who took it at 9 a.m., the trolley problem is a demonstration of a major philosophical conflict. The one between consequentialist ethics, which aim to maximize pleasure, minimize pain, and prioritize. This is Shyamalan's movie. Yeah, I'll say that. I knocked the door. Yeah, I forgot its name already in a cupboard. I knocked the door. I'm gonna be, like, vaguely pernickety right now, but he's conflating consequentialism with utilitarianism. Utilitarianism is a form of consequentialism. So it's kind of correct, but he's not. Called out. I was gonna say, you got nothing to say so far. Are you not outraged slash agreeing? Well, we've covered this guy a lot. He's really super woke. I don't know if you... Did you guys watch South Park a couple years ago when they had, like, all the episodes making fun of Pajama Day and, like, the woke stuff that was going on? Briny did. Like, he... This guy did a whole series on those South Park episodes, where he'd watched that and he somehow came to the conclusion that South Park is making an anti-capitalist message. It's just, like, I don't know. I'm just used to this guy's, like, stupidity. He's just so overwhelming to me. I don't know that... I feel like I've never seen a video from... Maybe I have from... Well, like... No, South Park. You're seeing all those episodes. Did you? Or did you not? Yeah, but I don't remember watching a video about from this guy, like this channel about it. That's all. No, but what do you have to say about the Pajama Day? Do you remember South Park, like, having an explicit anti-capitalist message in the last year or so? I don't remember the episode exactly that you're talking about. Okay, don't worry about it. Wow, South Park episode, expert. Bleak, leafle. Okay, though. Why are we leaving here? Yeah. I found it to be the opposite because there's an episode where Butters, like, he's trying to get the hot dog stand that Cartman is in, working as a business. Yeah, yep. Yeah, and Cartman is just, like, a lazy asshole. He doesn't want to do anything and he's blaming everyone around him. It seems to be a pretty pro- business, pro-capitalist message is putting out. Anyway. Philosophical conflict. The one between consequentialist ethics, which aim to maximize pleasure, minimize pain, and prioritize actions that help many people over those that benefit just a few. Your family must choose to willingly sacrifice one of the three of you in order to prevent the apocalypse. And deontological ethics. What the fuck? Yeah, I mean. That's that movie. We'll see it someday, maybe. Yeah, that's the plot. Pearl duty on the basis of rational deliberation and it's more about universal truth and practicality. Always rational deliberation. That's certainly not the fucking example he's given here. It was not rational in the last of us. Applications. Find someone else. There is no one else. We didn't tell her. We can cause her any fear. There won't be any pain. No, you take me to her. Posing for the sake of coffee right now. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Oh, sorry. Everyone see the last of us. It's very good. It is. Remember how we were watching it when she said we didn't tell her it's like, okay, cool. Oh, fuck. Yeah. No, really, yeah. You guys were sitting on pins and needles around that one, so tense. Oh, it's just because now it's like, okay, so, and then Joel, it's all going to play out exactly like the game. Yep. All right, cool. Yeah. That music, man. That music was amazing. That's a great sequence where you take me to her right now. There are lots of versions of the problem, but the main gist is something like, imagine there was a trolley headed down a track that was going to hit a bunch of people. And do we need to pause? Is this like a long sequence? The problem here is I can't tell with his editing whether or not he's covered it or not. You know what? I'll pop up the protective screen just in case. Yeah. That's weird. Have you guys seen The Good Place? I've seen parts of it. I've seen two seasons, yeah. Okay, I like it. I don't know. I know it's kind of contentious, but then I stopped, which isn't a great sign when I just would only kill one person. So basically, what's happening? You do nothing and lots of people or you switch the tracks. I'm doing it. Who is Paul? Who is Paul? Oh, someone's kind of pause. Somebody sits on this space bar. What's going on? Clicking the screen instead of clicking the button at the bottom. Yeah, click the button, not the screen. The screen is a troll and I fucking hate it and I hope they fix it someday. That screen is a trap. Don't touch it. Whoever is using your WFA, what the fuck's going on on the tracks was your child or your best friend or guy for you and yourself. In which case, the only ethical thing to do will be to let the crowd die to save the Lord of Flavors. Now, in case you're more of a visual learner, here is an example from The Good Place. I mean, on the one hand, if you was right, I mean, that's super visual to me what you just presented. Yeah. It's really not a hard to let them present. No, it's not. It's not. It's really simple. It's just visual aids. I don't know how to read why it's so popular because it's so simple. Oh, my God. I swear to God, who is doing that? I'm going to kill you. Probably ever. He's going to become less skillative and more present. Who is it? Do we need to do do we need to do like a pause check or for reference? Use a WFA. I am using a TW. You too. How is the vehicle? I don't know. I'm not user whoever the fuck is messing around. User fuck face. Find him. How come you find out what user you are? It has an underlying professional. I'm using a YRDRU. Yeah. You can fill out a name when you go in. It was WFAPS. I think was the one. No. Yeah. Which one are you? All right. Let's find out who it is. And we should shake them. The odds of the fucking day would be WFAPS. Yes. WFAPS. I am H-R-Y-K-I. OK. I need myself. You can click on your little face and name yourself. We don't need you. Oh my god. You do. Guys, guys, guys. Apparently, apparently it was Mark because his controller cable hit his space bar. God damn it. That's hilarious. He tried to blame Mark. Mark! To do this, Mark. It's actually Lewis on that. I was not on that DM. It's been strangling Mark because he didn't finish Armored Corian. Oh man. As we were talking about why this is popular, it's like, yeah, it's super straightforward to understand. And it just gets people the opening level of just thinking about stuff because it might be like, I would never kill someone over someone else. And then you're like, OK, but what about the trolley problem? And they're like, oh my god. What? Why would you have it in me? The trolley problem and its infinite permutations aren't like the best thing ever for discussing ethics in like a substantive way, but they sure give you a good look at your moral intuitions. I feel like they pried for the level one, you know? They're good for that. Absolutely. Oh my god. This problem has become less speculative and more practical as designers and programmers making Yeah, even more relevant today than ever. Yeah. Autonomous vehicles consider how the vehicles are starting to think. And the trolley are mad in their own. Crisis situation. For example, if a self-driving Tesla detects a person at a crosswalk in front of them and determines it doesn't have time. It detects a child and speeds up. It won't feel anything if I'm make sure it's not like that. At least give it a painless death. The crazy thing is that that could be computed in there at some point in future. It could be. It's like if I hit them at 29 miles per hour then they're going to be crippled and probably bleed out slowly. If I hit them at 60 they'll be instantly killed. It's like, oh my god. Oh my god. All right. Oh no. Stop. Is it better to swerve and hit another car potentially hurting many or are you thinking real children for this test? I don't know. It's ridiculous. There's plenty of orphans out there. It's so PC isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. This test was not based in reality. For soul. We need Yeah. It sucks to say this but a self-driving car is definitely going to kill someone at some point because of a programmers Wikipedia level understanding of ethics. What? What? Dude. What do you mean? What? Do you know how people die from just like No. It's not the programmers who are going to be making those. They're just going to put it into the machine. They're not going to be the ones who decide the ethics of the self-driving car. They're going to program its parameters and what do you want them to do? It'll probably be a lawyer. People die for a hell of a lot less than that already. What do you mean? It might be like something that actually starts getting legislated. You know? Like Absolutely. A self-driving car must do. Yeah, I think so. Well, and I love that he's saying this is though he has the correct understanding. He'd know how to program them. He'd know what decisions to make. I've read more than Wikipedia. So, okay. You guys don't know how they program these cars. They have the programmer goes to Wikipedia. He types in trolley problem. He copy, paste that into the AI. Okay. It's like it's like chat GBT and he just puts it on the car. Yeah. Like the programmer didn't get any guidelines go by to do that. What does he want to happen? I don't know. I guess he wants a professor to be programming it. Even though that would probably be included in the programming. He wants a professor to learn every test of that car. They're probably deliberating over this. Yeah. Because it's an issue they're having to face. What does that mean though? He's like pretending as though it'd be like who should I hit? The baby or the two adults that he'd be like. Oh, the baby. He'd be like obviously you should wait. Hang on. Let me go to Wikipedia. Obviously programming and stuff and reading cameras and judging distances and using Z buffer or whatever to figure out how close you are to that object versus that object and then detecting faces. That's all extraordinarily complicated and could never be put into like Wikipedia, right? But I'm thinking that if there's ever going to be legislation on on cars like this in terms of what kind of priorities they have, it's probably going to be something similar to was it Asimov's rules for robots where like you cannot ever you cannot ever like harm a person and like you always take people always take priority over objects. And so if it was something like that I'm not saying it'll be exactly like that. That's kind of, you know, the three rules like an iRobot basically. Well, something like that. The problem is that web host that, right? With the self driving. Yeah. The more relevant one would be there's somebody there your car can swerve but that might Well, the trolley problem is past it. That's the point. Yeah, exactly. This is about questions where somebody is going to be harmed no matter what. Who should be saved? Should it be the driver? Should it be the person that, you know, someone other than the driver? Do we make calculations on multiple people potentially being injured versus one people being dead for sure? It's part of the problem is that the rules for robotics is not very helpful anymore. Yeah. My favorite is deciding the outcome of hydraulic bomb versus a coughing baby or whatever that mean. This is such a weird way of framing this because it's like as if the AI engineers are saying, well, somebody's got to die. So who are we going to kill? The idea is you stop the fucking car if anybody's like risk. And that's what I was about to say. I think the only priority would be to prevent any, to prevent as much damage as possible and to not endanger any more subjects as possible. So like if it's a car to the right, it could not proactively try to swerve into the car to the right. It could not endanger any more than what is our danger. It would slam on the brakes as hard as it could. Well, no, but the problem that's being talked about right is that somebody is going to get hurt for sure. So who should it be? That's what they're talking about when it comes to self-driving cars. Well, if somebody's going to get hurt, somebody's going to get killed. Does it save the driver? Does it save the pedestrian? Does it save the other person in the car? These are the kind of problems that we'd be talking about. Not like, especially difficult. No, we're not at all. We're past that point. Especially difficult because at least in the trolley problem questions we'll often know a lot about the people. You know, like usually their age is appealed to in their number, but in real life it's like you're going to scan the person in front of you and find out if they're of a particular age and then decide they can die. It's like, exactly. How is the car going to make those calculations? And then it would be like should the principal position be that the car always tries to save you no matter what? Like is that something that people would accept? Even if it means a lot more people get harmed because it's always going to save you. Is that tenable? Sorry, I don't think that the auto-driving car is necessarily a good fit for the trolley problem because it isn't quite as binary. You're not on two rails, you're not guaranteed to kill one or the other. Well, real ethical dilemmas are rarely that binary, right? Yeah. The closest thing I can think of is like in a non-trolley thing would be like fictional obviously but like at the end of The Dark Knight where Joker creates like an artificial trolley problem like you destroy one boat full of civilians or one boat full of prisoners and he also adds another spice to it. It's like if you don't choose you cannot be guiltless by inaction. They don't choose I'll kill them both. Yeah. So that's like a kind of that's an artificial problem but that's kind of like that. I could see somebody really twisted truth doing something like that. Also, I think you're completely right in real life with the cars. They're just going to if it detects someone like in front of them and it detects cars on either side it's just going to break. It's not going to try to make some like complicated moral decision about crashing into cars next to it or anything. Yeah. I just don't understand. This all just seems so pointless. I don't know why they wouldn't just program the cars to not get into accidents. Yeah, it's dumb. So dumb. This is why they hire you. Exactly. See, I'm the one who come. It just seems so simple. We don't need Wikipedia andies. We need rags. As we saw as well. We need rags. You see the test footage where they were running over children. They just had fake children. Just make it fake people whenever you bump into them. Teach cars not to crash. It instantly teleports the real person to why upon impact and replaces them with American. Problem solved. Ninja vanish. Ninjutsu, yeah. Also, Adam is ready to come in. Oh my goodness. Which means another contestant must be hammered in the face. Fine. I get the message. It's fine. I'm leaving. God. No. Goodbye. Goodbye. Hide friend, Lewis. You want to... Lewis, I'll find me. You want to come back later or are you going to go to sleep because it is like getting close to that time in it? I don't know. Why don't you as a mother? Yeah. Just five more minutes. Actually, the reason I wanted to go to sleep so you can come back in the morning. Those are the hours when nobody will be around. Okay. Wow. Filling in for the... Yeah. No, I'm probably going to be back tomorrow. So you can... You can do... You can have all those fake times that can come in now and I'm going to steal all the glory tomorrow. And I'm back. All right. Well, I'll see you there, mate. It's been fun. All right. Of course. Get lighter, dude. Come on. I'll see you later, mate. Goodbye. Hold on. Look at you. Please. A side note. There's a great, really fun board game, a card game, actually, by the guys who created Cyanide and Happiness if you're familiar with that comic. Literally based on like... Yeah, they've been joking. They also made a trolley game where literally you create two tracks and there's like... And you have to choose like, okay, you can either save your truest love or kill the next Hitler or then add like, you know, oh, also there's like a bunch of orphans and a bunch of... Zombies who will attack you if you don't kill them. And there's like, you just keep on adding more and more stuff. It's actually pretty, pretty fun. And it's... Obviously it's not very... This is like a way to win this or something? Like, how do you win? Basically, there's a trolley operator and he has to... He or she has to decide who to kill and everyone else is arguing on their side like, oh, kill the other guys. Kill the other guys. You don't want to kill your puppy, right? This is really funny. You should check it out. Oh, that actually sounds awesome. You should do it on stream. That'd be a lot of fun, yeah. Yeah, it's a shame that the trolley problem is a joke. And we would be... Yeah. Getting cute. Well, we're not there yet. You have to cut that. It's just in the title. I know, but I'm used to meta knowledge. I'm meta gaming. Rags can peer into the future. Yeah, that's a say. You come back in time. One who pees is a peer. I'm hitting that for a second. Okay. But should a classroom example be used to solve the actual problem? Anatomy of the frog. What's going on? No, yay! Anatomy of the frog. Stuck on it. I don't like legs. Because I know that hip drop there, and it looks like it's a... As a powerlifter. It's belly cut open. I don't like that. It's just a diagram, Pringy. It's not actually a real problem. Yeah, it's just a picture. It's just fictional. It's not really a frog. Dude, it's so fucked up. They have human skeletons in these classrooms. Yeah. They're just strewn around. Wow. This stock footage is bizarre. Look at the teacher. I don't believe he's a teacher. No teacher looks like that. And then you have four of these clearly adults. They were in this classroom learning about the anatomy of the frog on these desks that are like... I was about to say, this could be a university, but I don't like a university with these kinds of desks. They're all women. There's only four. There could be more than that. I don't know. It's just what you hate women for. Yeah, well, I mean, not now. I always did, but I don't know why. It's just, it's strange to me that you've chosen four of anybody and they happen to... Well, at least to the stream. Adam. How are you doing? Am I late? We're learning about frogs. We're talking about the trolley problem. The frog and trolley problems. I mean frogs and the trolley problem. Frogs boiling? You'll love it. Always about the frogs boiling, isn't it? Nope. No, bowling. It's about them going bowling and having a fun time. Take the frog heads bowling. Take them bowling. Alrighty. Oh, I like that. Goes back in the middle, man. You know, like it's... Can't prevent Beethoven, right? That's right. Look at you go. Look at that. Now we're going to a new idea. The new idea is, it's a show about four frogs who are friends and they're bowling. They have a little bowling club and they're part of a league. And over the course of the season, we went a little bit about these guys' lives. And we learned about their lives only when they congregate to do bowling. And they occasionally have adventures in the bowling alley. Can one of them... Can one of them be called a... What kind of adventures do you have in a bowling alley? Can one of them be called a... Sorry, I'm cutting off people. Sorry. Well, it's just now, now, because I think rags, did you say there's not many adventures you could have in the bowling alley? Well, no, no, I didn't say that. I didn't say that. I said there's not many adventures that you do have in a bowling alley. Well, here's the thing. What bowling alleys do you go to? What is the bowling alley? Okay, listen. Bowling isn't an adventure. No, no, no, no, no, no. But in this case, it is. And also, the bowling alley... In this case, it is. There we go. Well, the bowling alley is a gateway to another dimension. The boldest. Oh, shit! Yeah, there's a whole bunch of crazy adventures that happen in this bowl. There's a Narnia in the back of the... Oh, my goodness. Well, if you're a frog... Yeah, like the frogs get pulled into a portal and he says, Oh, no, Nadia. Oh, no, Fringy, Fringy. You know how that... Every bowling alley has Daytona, like the Daytona arcade game. You can have fictional video games and time crisis and stuff like that that sort of act as gateways to these crazy new realms. And this is all happening while they're just doing their bowling. Oh, Fringy, I think you're missing. I think that what we need to do instead was, instead of having the arcade machines be the gateways, you know those freaky, weird-ass animations they play on the bowling screens? Yeah! For when you get strikes and splits. Those are places that you could go to. The thing is, oh, my God. It feels like they're treading a little bit on Meat Canyon because he did that for one of his classes. Oh, did he? Yeah, where there were these crazy... You didn't like the shitty sort of pixel-like 3D renders? Just the weird ones, yeah. And they were sentient. And then the character... I can't remember his name. What's the character's name? God damn it, help me out here. Someone in chat has to know. It's... Melvin? Yeah, that's right. Brother of the Duke. And that's his name, right? Macabre. Macabre, Melvin or whatever his name is. Yeah. Melvin Macabre. Like that. So we don't want to step on... It's toast to... I will say I kind of like this concept of a bowling alley that has all of these adventures going on. Or it could just be more mundane. It could just be, you know, they talk about life. I don't know. There's a certain mundanity to a bowling alley. That's really appealing because it's just... You go to a bowling alley and when you go to a bowling alley, you know exactly what to expect. There's going to be bowling lanes. You're going to go there. You're going to get your special magical bowling shoes on. And maybe you can get some cheapo, like fast foodie kind of stuff, like you're at the ballpark and people chat. Maybe you can get a beer or whatever. Very mundane, you know exactly what to expect. But that's where they get you. You don't know what to expect from this bowling alley. I do like the idea, Rags, of you have to get a certain score to get the right animation to hop into a different dimension. Ooh, yeah. So like certain... Like you're getting chased by like monsters or something and you're like, you got to hit the split to get the right animation to get us out of here. That would be really funny, actually, if they did it. And then they bowled it and they thought it was a strike. It was like, strike, this will get us to like, I don't know, like a wonderful paradise. It's somewhere awful. I think that's a pull over. Oh, shit, it's nine. It's fucking nine. They get dragged into this crazy. You know what? I need to write this down. This is gold. Yeah, this is gold. It's a billion-dollar idea. I'm not even kidding. I'm pulling up Microsoft Word now. They're also frogs. Yeah, frogs in a bowling alley going on adventures. Adventures every week. I was thinking the main character could be called Niko and you could call it Niko. Let's go bowling. One could be named Niko as a reference. I don't want to tread up. No, there's a guy who works there called Niko. He works there and he's behind it. That's a good reference. Yeah. We don't want to tread on GTA shoes too much with this concept. The fabulous adventures of Frogatin J-Frog. Is everyone in this world an anthropomorphic animal, or are they just frogs in a human world? I like the idea of them just being frogs in a human world and nobody really cares. Nobody minds. Oh, maybe it's a little bit absurdist. It's a little absurdist. Oh, backstory. You found out that they actually came originally from one of the alternate bowling dimensions. That's why the frogs came. Bowling is all they know, right? Maybe. Well, maybe. Maybe. I'll put a question mark on that. Anyway, I don't want to delay asking too much because we're going to have a lot of fun. Oh, yeah, of course. This video is way more interesting. Yeah, we should go back to it. Adam caught up. Adam, you love Wisecrack, I've heard. Favorite channel? Oh, yeah, this Kami. Yeah, he's the best. Oh, my God. Well, we'll listen to him talk about the trolley problem, okay? And he hasn't really said anything yet, so you've not missed much, other than establishing it. Okay, good. Programmers. I know, look, everyone knows the trolley problem. Who needs to show? Yeah. It's a joke. That's the point of this video, apparently. I don't think it's very funny. No, it's not that funny. It involves death. I think so. Let's just sit in that for a sec. Okay, but should a classroom example be used to solve actual problems that involve actually existing people? That's a really weird question. Probably not, but everyone uses it for that. But the thing is, if someone was to conclude, you know, you choose the one instead of the five and thus we will program that into the car. I feel like we've skipped loads of steps here. It's like, whoa, hang on. And that's not what the trolley problem's meant for. It's just an introduction. You build on it. You change the, it's so weird to say it like that. Like should a classroom example be used for practical? It's like, maybe, maybe not. It depends on what's going on here. Again, it's one, it's one example. You can use other thought experiments to help you. This isn't the be all and end all. It's not like, all right. I figured out what I think about the trolley problem. Life figured out. I got it. Nailed. I don't need to read any books. I don't need to think about it anymore. I got it. I figured it out. I mean, what is the point of all the permutations of the trolley problem, if not, to highlight that the trolley problem isn't the be all and end all? Change one thing. Maybe your answer is a little bit different. You change one thing. Never pretended to be, though. That's the kind of defense I want to make for it. It's like, probably problem sitting is innocent little trolley problem. Like, I'm just an idea. I'm not on its own. I'm not saying I'm anything. I have an idea. And you can't kill him. Have fun talking. Have a little chat about some little philosophy. You know, just have some fun with your friends. And he's like, no, it cannot be done. Do you kill the dog or the frog or the dinosaur or the dodo? And you're like, oh, I guess we can talk about all that. And it's like, by the way, you understand that whatever you figure out at the end of that, there are more animals than those four. Like, yeah. What? Yeah. That's how hypotheticals work. I mean, it's like a little bit cringe. He hasn't said as much cringe as he could have said by now. So we'll give him a shot. Maybe he's on the wise crack rating scale. It is obviously just a hypothetical limit case meant to provoke a discussion about morality. So I feel like this guy, his argument, is going to be like, well, nobody would actually do this, put five people on one track and one track. It's like, yeah, I know that. Well, I mean, you draw it back even further. Why would the trolley problem even happen? It's like, well, if someone had said, would you ever kill a person? And someone goes, no, never. Yeah. Oh, right. Oh, really? Yeah. And then you start thinking about, like, what if this happened? You'd fall in right into my shoes. And then the genius says that would never happen. No, it's the point. Listen, we need to ask Wisecrack how he would feel if he hadn't eaten breakfast yesterday because I'm not sure he would really answer. Uh-oh. I'd feel breakfastless. Example of what ethics is supposed to do. And can it actually teach us anything about the real world? Let's find out. It teaches us things about ourselves. Oh, that is the Vsauce video. That is the one. Yeah, yeah. That lady. Ready to kill. Okay. Before we get into it, you want to thank this thing. Are you ready to kill? Are you ready to kill is a different question? That's a bit reductive. Yes. Oh, well, he somehow, I can't believe that he made the trolley problem reductive. Yeah, that's strange, right? Because it's the reason why the doctor one has brought up is because it changes things a lot. It goes from, like, it goes from a very deliberate act that is against, you know, like, what's, what? Damn it. What's the name of the principle? The, the, what's the artist? That's the one. Hypocratica. Hypocratica. Hypocratica. Hypocratica, that one. It's, you know, like a shuttle word. That's my problem with doctors. They're just a bunch of hypocrites. Oh, my God. Wow. All right. We can proceed. I think we're going into an ad bar, right? In an ad. Oh, no. In an ad. Video sponsor. Well, what's it for? Better. If you get changed. Uh-huh. You need better help. Oh, my God. If you can't drive in a trolley. Dude, this is for the guy from video two. Thank you. So here's the thing. I've only got tormented by Lewis. I don't know much about better help, but I don't even know much about the original, like, controversy. Is it a better service now or? I'm sure it's a better service now than it was. It would have to be. The controversy was huge. Well, you say that, but. Do they, do they just go from. I'm willing to bet on it. They just go from, did they just pivot from, are you ready to kill? You might need better help. I am. I am. I was like, hang on. I said surely it's better. I didn't say it was good. Is it better to kill than not? Mueller answers better at helping. Yes. Yes. It's always better to kill than not. And I've talked about this before. A time to kill? Yes. Someone who struggled a lot with depression in my life and going and seeing the therapist has been a really huge help for me. That's great. I kind of wouldn't be at the place I was today. But look where it brought us. So I'm. Still feels weird to me. This is a sponsor. You know what I mean? There's something about it that just feels strange to me. Is this the kind of service that you want to advertise in a YouTube video? I feel like there's a certain gravitas. Are you comfortable with advertising mental health services in a YouTube video? I'm just not prepared to be able to recommend that. I'm a guy. Yeah. I just kind of feel qualified. I'm just doing all the sponsorships. If you listen to his wording clearly, I couldn't quite hear, but it sounded almost like going to a therapist helped him, but he's not saying he used better help. He's just saying that his therapist that he got through traditional means helped him versus better help, which could be anybody. That's another one. There's a lot of ethical aspects. This is quite ironic, I guess. What's interesting considering the trolley problem isn't it at all? Yes. Do I make $5,000 on the sponsorship or do I potentially damn people to poor mental health? Help's network of more than 20,000 therapists are ready to listen to and help you. Now, after you take a brief questionnaire, they'll match you with a therapist whose expertise fits your needs. Yeah, like see even that, you know? Yeah. You can work with that. Like a brief questionnaire, really? That's it. You want an LGBTQ plus therapist specifically? Oh, yeah, I guess so. Well, I mean, I don't see a problem. Like, I mean, I don't see, like if somebody wanted a Christian therapist or like a Hindi therapist or anything like that. I don't know. I could see why somebody might want to have that option. Yeah. Whether or not it's good for them is another question. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Was, you know, seeing a man or a woman or, you know, it's been discussed before, right? Like a therapist shouldn't reaffirm you. They should challenge you more than likely. Well, well, I mean, if you want actual help. Yeah. But hey, there's no way I'm getting into talking about what therapy should be. Fuck that. Those two skills might not otherwise be available in your area. You can message at any time at your seat timely and thoughtful responses. Plus you can schedule your... Today was really rough again. It's like, did your friends not play with you again? Because you didn't get gizmo. Oh, my God. I just realized this is so devious nowadays. You could just hook this up to chat GPT. Yes, you could. Oh, my God. Imagine if you found out that your therapist didn't know what. That's ridiculous. Every day after it's like a science fiction short story, doesn't it? Yeah, okay, okay. But what if it actually ended up legitimately working and it looks like would you complain? Well, I think that's a real existential kind of question. Glad you mentioned that movie. I love her. It's great. I love that movie. Your choice of secure phone or video sessions to receive counseling. I'm here to listen. Tell me more about what you're feeling. And that thing, while it is in the inter-recesses of its mind, the AI is... You remember that bug, that beetle and family guy that was rubbing his hands together? Like, good, good. Just getting a little bit of information. The human will never see this coming. In the middle of time. And in the event that you and your therapist aren't a perfect match, you can easily switch to a new one for no additional charge. So join more than 2 million people who have taken charge of their mental health with BetterHelp by visiting betterhelp.com. Does this explain a lot about society? Maybe. Maybe, I don't know. Com slash AI therapist. Or you can just click the link in the video description. And when you do, it'll get 10% off your first month. So it's better, H-E-L-P dot com slash wise crap. It's like, it's pressuring to use this service because it's like, you get a discount if you choose this service. It's like, should that be like the reason that you go with one service over the other? It feels weird. Feels weird. I don't know. I don't know if there's a little thing right of like, yeah, sign up to BetterHelp for the discount for your mental health services. It just seems... None of it. I don't know if the whole thing just doesn't seem... Yeah. Maybe mental health is something you should splurge on a little bit. I don't know. I think it's just the hard thing for me to overcome is the idea of like, I make YouTube videos about like films and stuff, and here's my suggestions for like... Yeah. You know, like a service to get mental health. Like, I don't know. It just, I don't know. It just seems... How about explaining why he's qualified for that? Like, it's just, it's such a weird thing to be able to do. This is not a video about movies though. This is a video about the trolley problem. It is. Are you ready to kill? He knows deep within the recesses of the human brain. Look at his eyes. He's ready to kill. He referenced that it was the good place that prompted him and used a bunch. So it feels like it's media-adjacent, if not directly stemming from it. Why is Craig using that? He's been using it for a long time. Yeah. Look at his hat. It says house plants. Okay. He's not... Is that like a... He's a vice-adjacent. What's the meme there? What is the meme with house plants? I don't get it. I couldn't tell you the answer. Is it like the... Highest plants are good for your mental health. I was about to... I was about to speculate on what it means, but I actually have no idea. Like, I have no idea. He's innocuous as a house plant. I can imagine the... I can imagine the review is like, I'm really depressed now and I'm thinking about any things, but I saved 10% off my first one, so... Now, back to the show. Now, some philosophers would end the video right now by answering the question, what is the trolley problem good for with a resounding absolutely nothing? That's retarded. I'm sorry. Who says anyone... Yeah, provide me the names. Give me a list. It has zero value. Zero value. Really? It's not seen as the most valuable thing, like in the field of moral philosophy, I want to state, but... He's not framing it in a way where we can actually like, understand what he's trying to say. He's just making it seem like nonsense. Well, hopefully you'll give us the reason why it's worth absolutely nothing to some people. Moral philosophy as a field is like past it, if you know what I mean. That's kind of... They're working on the more complicated stuff. They look at trolley problem like baby blocks. Yes. Which is fine, actually, in that context. To say it's nonsense. Yeah, that's completely fine. While not speaking on the trolley problem specifically, in his book Ethics, philosopher Alain Bejuu thinks that examples like the trolley problem are excuses to disengage our own subjectivity from the messy actuality of ethics. For him, all ethical thinking takes place within a situation. So unless you or someone you know has ever been in a position where they've had to push a fat man off a bridge onto... See, I already knew, because it's not about being an exact one-to-one situation. It's just a thought experiment and it applies to all things in life. It can. Well, now it just makes me wonder about the nature of hypothetical... Like, a hypothetical is not the situation ever. Like, when you bring it up and you're just sitting comfortably compared to in the actual situation in the heat of the moment. But like, there's still... Surely that author would agree that there can still be value in pondering a hypothetical, even though you know that it's not the same conditions as in the real world. I feel like... We implicitly accept that our emotional impulses have some, like, difference from our moral rationality, right? I would argue that hypotheticals like the trolley problem are designed to make, like, almost two intuitive positions fight each other. Because you might be like, I would never, ever hurt a person. And you're like, not to save that guy? It's like, I don't know. No, not to save two of that guy? No, not to save your son. And the mother's like, oh, shit. It forces you to reassess your position. And like, even with, you know, at as low as forms, it's still effective. Just to be able to understand where you stand. So when you get reformulations, like when you're the single individual tied to the tracks, you'll get people saying things like, I want to believe that I would pull the lever, how I'm going to manifest in this scenario. Which, by the way, is my conclusion about the trolley problem. I want to believe I'd pull that lever, but I don't know if I'd freeze. But the fact that the question would even evoke the, I want to believe that, is an interesting... That's interesting in and of itself of recognizing I want to believe that I'd do something, but I'm not sure that I would. That can be really useful. There's so much to explore there. Exactly. That's it. You're getting at it again. Like, what the trolley problem is really good for is exploring moral intuitions. And that's what the reformulations are all really good at as well. Why do we think... We do about certain things. Why do we intuit certain things as more moral than others? And how do those change when the circumstances change? And how does it change when we think about it a bit more? That just because it's the first thought that came to your mind doesn't mean that it's necessarily the right... That you don't necessarily know where those moral intuitions came from and it can prompt you to explore where they came from and build a more rigorous foundation. There's what I mean. It's a difficult... This is an uphill battle. Well, I already argue that the video itself disproves the idea that the trolley problem is valueless or a joke because of the fact that I've explained all of how it's not worthwhile. Well, it's weird because it sounds like in the beginning when we were making jokes about why aren't they running over real people with cars to test this. It's like, well, it's like, these are hypotheticals. Unless you do it in reality, it doesn't matter. That kind of defeats the point of a hypothetical. That's the whole fucking point. Yeah, cool. Which is what's the point of talking about it ever? I don't know. We're going to go to that extent. Listen, I don't want to ad-hom Mr. Elaine Babadou here, but he is a big advocate for returning to communism. According to what you're talking about... I don't know anything about the, I don't know anything about the author because I don't even know if it's being stated accurately. That's the annoying thing for me. I don't trust internet man's It's strange with that hat. Where it killed him, but stopped a train from going off a cliff, then honestly, who cares? In other words, you can't do ethics hypothetically. And from... Yeah, you can. Literally, you literally can. If you're in the argument is you can't because it's not real. I want to... I just want to kill myself. What is ethical? I don't understand what hypotheticals are. Like, that's the only conclusion. How would he feel if he hadn't eaten breakfast? I don't do it because it's not actually happening. You can't eat breakfast hypothetically. But like, seriously, if he's trying to argue because you wouldn't have the mental state that you would have in the real situations, you can't actually think about it. It's like, that's so stupid. Of course, you can still think about it. And they would be people in real life who when put in the trolley problem situation would be like, all right, I'm pulling the lever. I'm doing it. And then they pull it. And then they watch what happens and they try and own that reality. The fact that that person exists, you don't go, well, that was different than thinking about it earlier, wasn't it? You'd be like, yes, it was, but I don't know why you're devaluing the idea of us talking through it and thinking about it. Thinking about it can help you. They could have a thought process behind why they pulled the lever and why they didn't. Like, there's so many things that you can explore. Yeah. If you want to erase the idea of the trolley problem, the trolley problem could potentially get you mentally ready to think about moral decisions like that. If you just erase that. Yeah. If you completely lost, like, how do I... For example, there's something about to hit, you know, a baby versus two older people, you know, or you could argue the baby has a whole life ahead of him. The older people have lived a full life, but it's also two lives versus one. You know, you're thinking and arguing about, you know, whether one's better or worse could kind of prepare you for that moment a little bit. There are so many people out there for it. Or the baby, you can look at it this way. The baby has zero chance of reacting and defending itself. The people, even though they're old, they might be able to get out of the way. You might end up choosing them just because there's a chance that they will either dodge or survive. Or, you know, just adrenaline will kick in and they'll get out of the way. That's not happening with the baby. You know, you're going to run right over it. That could be their thought process in the heat of the moment. And even that is something you could explore. So it's just so many ways to do it. It's crazy. Aren't all ethics taught to us hypothetically through culture? I was about to say that. That's what part of, like, yeah, like, you have to learn, like society through movies or people directly telling you this. They tell you these ethical lessons with the hope that it, you know, goes down to the children or to the person through culture. And then they, you know, they're going to do that when they're actually faced with the situation. That's the only way to, like, teach ethics. It's hypothetical. I feel like the straightforward way of doing this would be, like, we always have to punish those who murder, right? And it will just take a life. And you go, yeah. And you go, but what if they did it in self-defense? And then you're, like, imagining that. And then they go, whoa, whoa, whoa. That's worthless because that's hypothetical. You're like, what? You have to make a decision when the moment comes, not now. Yeah, you can't do it now. You have to wait. You have to get case studies and then follow these actual cases and then grab, when it's in court and all the laws happening, you just bring in a whole bunch of students and, like, watch this play out because this is real. You can't do hypotheticals. They're worthless. It's just, there are so many, like, philosophical practices that are essentially about trying to prepare yourself for when the real situation arises. Right. Like, meditating on certain objects. Well, yeah. I mean, like, that's like, that's like the first day of almost anything, whether it's first aid, whether it's bungee jumping, whether it's, like, any practice. You, you, you go into a classroom and you learn about things, hypothetically, and then later on, you might go out and do them. It's not like, all right, you want to be a brain surgeon? Well, Johnny over here, we got to, you know, repair his brain. So, you know, step up to the plate, bucko. Like, no, it's probably a bit of learning involved before you start poking around. So the amount of people who've given up kidneys for family members, how is that not like an exploration of stuff like this? Yeah. That's what I mean. It's like, I find this so weird, this dismissal. I'm going to ask a strange question that I don't really expect to get an answer to. But does anyone know this guy is a virtue ethicist? I have no idea. I don't know this guy. I think he's a communist. I think he's, apparently, he's a communist. Virtue ethics is more concerned with the content of an individual's character rather than the outward expression of that in actions because the, like, underlying point being a good person will do good things, if that makes any sense. And it's about the temperament of your character rather than virtue ethicism. Your boy, Aristotle, right? Yep. Yeah. It seems like this guy is I'm always revival as well, but yeah. This guy's either deliberately or not conflating getting to the heart of an issue through a hypothetical with oversimplifying it, like reducing it. And it's like they want to just get lost in the weeds and stay there rather than, you know, come up with a decision whether or not something's firmly right or wrong. And, like, to add to what I think Sitch was saying, like, a lot of, like, movies, like, these are constantly, like, hypothetical scenarios that are being given to us because fiction does that. It sort of distills real life. Then we talk about whether or not the character was virtuous when they did what they did. Yeah. And it presents you with a situation. It's like, what if this happened to you? Would you go this way? Would you go that way? What's the right thing to do? And nobody says, like, yeah, but dragons aren't real, dude. Oh, yeah. Whoops. This conversation just stops when that happens. It's like, what do you think that is? Like, just like a peer lack of imagination when they don't want to engage with hypotheticals? I always felt like the brain's walking off because it makes them uncomfortable. And so they'll find any straw to grab. That's what I'm describing. I feel like there's some knee jerk reaction where they just shut down. But what is it? Like, do you do not have the creativity in your head to, like, be able to picture this? You just not want to. The way out that for some reason people don't like taking, but it's right there is to say, you know, I'm not sure I think about that. I don't know. It was a very that's all they have to say. It's a fine answer. All they got to say is interesting, you know, and then, yeah, instead they choose this. They pick a line in the sound. I don't know what your hypothetical is good because it wouldn't happen. Yeah, that would never happen. Dragons are real. Like that type of shit is like so. It's so annoying when people don't want to engage with a hypothetical. Yeah, because like, come on. Like, why are you a boring asshole? They're afraid of being caught in a contradiction. That's why they don't do it. They're often. Yeah, people are super. Probably really afraid of traps and things. Yes, they follow their intuition. And the next thing you know, you're like up contradiction. Look, he contradicted yourself. We like this guy. They they say you're the one that's not engaging if you're refusing to or if you're entertaining hypotheticals. It's like, well, what about the complications of a real life situation? You're ignoring all of that. Like for the purpose of this? Yes, we are. So what's your answer? Yeah, on that note, Mr. Shad, Sordman Bahia is going to have to leave us. Unfortunately, so you in Britain? Yeah, I am. I had a big long day. I had a medieval festival. Lots of fun. We're going to do a Shad of Mercy mean greet on Monday. But I'm pretty hammered. I'm starting to crash. So unfortunately, I'm going to have to duck out. No problems. Very much enjoying the conversation. I'm going to come back and listen to it. Oh, sweet. And also, of course, if you find time, we're going for another 19 hours. So if you want to jump back in, let me know. We're going to spot. But until then, thank you so much. You know, pleasure, guys. I'll catch you in a minute. See you later, man. Later, man. See you. I was going to say, sorry, man. I didn't mean to catch you on that. No, go ahead. I was just going to start the video back up. So yeah, I'm just going to mention, I think probably like one of the best criticisms against something like the Charlie problem is it just it's so abstract. So it may not be applicable to everyday life, but I do argue that most philosophic, I don't know what you call them, but like just the these problems, these philosophical problems that people have created are very abstract. Like I go back to one of the most basic ones is the Plato's cave where the idea is like if you were locked in the cave without any ever seeing the outside world and you were basically fixed in position and only you can only see the shadows cast by firelight and like your figurines and stuff would basically create your whole world and you never knew anything outside that firelight shadow. Would you ever know that the world outside existed? That's like a 2000 year old or so, you know, philosophical question. And of course, that probably never ever, ever happened in real life, but it's a really interesting way to explain that if you only saw a simulated reality, would you ever know true reality beyond that? And I write up on that a little bit just kind of getting, because I'm new to philosophy, I didn't study it in school or anything like that. So I, you know, video a couple of years ago, I compared that to, you know, the movie, The Matrix, which kind of asked that in a sci-fi context. You know, if you never saw the real world but only saw a simulated version of it, would you even believe that there was a real world other or even have that concept? So I think it's a really interesting way to kind of just open your mind a little and ask questions that are otherwise too abstract or too unreasonable to ask. Like, of course, yeah, nobody's gonna lock somebody into a cave and show them firelight shadows or whatever, but theoretically you could. And if that's all you ever experienced, maybe you'll believe that's reality. And The Matrix thinks it's more about Baudrillard's works from like much later in time. It's, yeah. Yes, of course, Baudrillard. Yeah. I tried reading Simulacra in Simulation. That's a really dense book. I think I kind of get it. I did mention Baudrillard's work in my video as well, and man, I'm not really a huge fan of that really dense philosophy, but I actually kind of find it interesting that The Matrix kind of goes against a lot of Baudrillard's ideas in some ways. They completely misunderstood what they read. It's really funny. It is very funny. I actually hate the film for that. Yes, the experimentation exploration is value in and of itself, even if the question's really dull and dumb. Imagine the hypotheticals being unrealistic. If you just said like, what if, right, hypothetically, what if a serial killer killed you and he didn't do it quickly, did it relatively slowly? How would you feel? Almost like boring. She'd be like, oh, bad. Well, it's a good hypothetical, right? Because it could happen. So your serial killers exist, and you could die. It's like, yeah. Well, the point of hypotheticals are often supposed to be thought experiments. And the point of an experiment is to try to control all the other variables. So you're just testing one specific thing. And usually with these hypotheticals, the reason they're so weird or abstract is because you're just trying to really hone in on one element of a person's thinking as close, like, as specifically as you can. So like, of course, they're going to be like nonsensical situations because, in reality, that's never the case. But that's what you need to explore someone's morals thoroughly. Exactly. As soon as you create the scenario, they get so offended by the idea of like, oh, that's the, that would never happen. Mentality triggers that. Well, it's a lame attitude because you can sort of hide in the abstract haze of all of these different variables instead of trying to dig into each of those individual variables to figure out what you believe. Right. People don't like being cornered, even if it's in pursuit of like a, of an answer, a concrete answer on something. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's exactly what Adam said. People, they can sense the trap. And they're like, oh, well, the hypotheticals is I don't like this. This is a hypothetical. Yes. They just don't want to go there or let you go there. People just kind of seem to commit to. Is inconsistency. Yeah. Sometimes you can commit to a hypothetical that gives the opponent too much wiggle room to just kind of like ignore you and try to, you know, you can't really lock them down there. Why do I never include anything? You don't include anything. You know what's one? What a hypothetical you had to answer this question. Baller, this is a... What? Just right. The robot. Oh, God. The robot. Oh, yeah. The robot. You gave that motherfucker too much wiggle room. I did. Yeah. Yes. I know you had to... It was Mahler's choice of analogy versus Just Right. We debated them. And it was a good strategy, but Just Right just fucking refused to engage with it. And it was basically giving way too much wiggle room. What's trying to fucking do bridges there? Not own, you know? I know. I know. You're trying to be civil, but you chose a path that just gave that asshole too much wiggle room. I remember, I was just like, oh, my God. Because I think I remember you mentioned it some time ago. I was going to bring up... It's always seemed almost hostile. Everyone sees hypotheticals as an attack. They're like, you're trying to get me to change my mind. But it's like, if someone just tells you again and again and again, I fucking hate ice cream. Just hate, hate, hate, hate. And one day you go, what do you hate about it? And you're like, those cones are disgusting that they come in. Like those... They're like wafery. Like, eh. And it's like, okay, so you don't hate ice cream then, do you? It's like, yeah, I do. It's like, what if you bought it and it didn't have a cone? And then they're like, that's insane. That is an insane hypothetical. That would never happen. That would never happen. That would never happen. It doesn't ice cream without cones. What the fuck is wrong with you? Get out of here. I hate you. What wacky upside down world is that? I'm getting flashbacks to your top with XQC. That was an extremely infuriating talk. How did you communicate with that creature? I mean, the vault is up, okay? I watched that thing twice, man. That was hilarious. Ethan, like, chokes slammed him. Dude, that was actually a really relevant example, too, because when he was, you know, his hypothetical was like, there is this problem that it's like, what if it didn't? Okay, this problem, what if it didn't? Okay, you lose. You're bad. You do it, then you stop. You're bomb. Dude, I'm just asking you a question. Like, he's okay, god. And then just so many contradictions, like, you know, yeah, law is sacred, but it's like, I don't fucking care. Whatever. Go on. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, what? This is a gotcha moment, isn't it? I'm not going to give you this. You're trying to gotcha me. Yeah, that was my first introduction to that guy, and I couldn't believe how childish he was versus, like, how popular he is. Like, shame on every all of his fans. Like, that dude is acting like a nine-year-old, but it's, yeah, shameful. So, Sitch has presented this as an interesting trolley problem. The idiot doesn't realize this would never happen, so I don't know why. Oh, I'm so sorry. I like how you can tell which one the rich guy is. Only rich people were taught that. Yep. Oh, no. A trolley is heading toward the rich man. The rich man offers you $500,000 to pull the lever, which would divert the trolley and kill someone else. What do you do? I mean, the one for one. What's interesting, too, is that if you're a person who hates rich people, you would do it because you're making the rich man poorer. I mean, you could rationalize that, I guess. Use that same rationalization both ways. Probably. If he dies and his money will be spread toward the other guy's family. He can compensate the other guy's family if you save the rich guy. That could be something. True. True. We're talking about this and that guy just bursted in like, this is valueless. Stop it. Rich people would never offer you money to save their lives. Some of the hospitals is a lie. Well, I feel like there should be an option three that's like haggle where you're just like, oh, I'm not sure. Oh, you know, $500,000. Your life is only worth $500,000? Option D, write up contracts quickly. Like scribbling on the floor, like, come on, come on, come on, come on, come on. You put the pant on his mouth and he has to sign it with his tent. You pull the lever a bit more as he like increases his bidding. Yeah. If you had the trolley problem and you have one person on each side and you don't know, like, just say they're all, the people are equivalent, essentially, is there a moral weight to just even acting the pull lever at all versus letting it, like, does that add anything? That's part of the conversation, right? Yeah. As people talk about whether it's the reason why the trolley problem is always set up, that the five people will be killed if you don't pull the lever to try and put the action of the idea that you're killing the one person because people could say, like, well, I didn't touch the lever so I'm not morally culpable for the five people. That's kind of part of the conversation. I even love thinking about the fact they made it five instead of two because it's like, two is like, eh, could we weigh in a bit more? I'm very definitive. Yeah, weigh it up to five. That's the easy one. Everyone thinks five is better than one. So, yeah. So, wait, are you guys pulling the lever? Are you going to save the rich person? Yeah, easily. Okay. And then I'll kill him. I think you guys can fight. Oh, fuck. I don't know if I'm going to play him. Maybe he needs some better help. I don't know. Dude, I love the idea of the rich guy. He says, I will give you half a million dollars if you save me. And then the other guy goes, so will I. Yeah, definitely. But you have a hat. How do I know if you're wealthy at all? I love my top hat. He took my hat. That was my hat. I was wearing that. Oh. Now you'll remind me of in Source Six, the carousel trap. But that was very, it felt similar in terms of like a variation of the trolling problem of six people. You can only save two of them. And then as it goes on, they start fighting about who's honest and who's not and trying different strategies to essentially save their own lives. And are they telling the truth or are they lying? Yeah, those things are pretty. Wait, what? Uh-oh. Oh, man. Oh, no. A trolley is heading toward five lobsters. You can pull the lever, divert it to the other track, run over the cat instead. What do you do? Save the cat. No, fuck those lobsters. Fuck those lobsters. Save the cat. Oh, wait. He's going to save the lobsters, dude. Jordan Peterson. Fuck those lobsters. Jordan Peterson is that lover. Jordan Peterson is that lover. Who gets to save the lobsters? This is an easy choice. This is amazing. Well, what about if it's a cat and a dog? Just one cat versus one dog. Jordan Peterson, rule 12, always pet a cat. So he'd be very conflicted. The dog would be the cat. I always pet a cat every time. Well, there's something I'm thinking about. Well, the interesting thing with animals is like lifespan versus, I guess, capability of a conscious experience. So like if it was a dolphin or an elephant, let's assume the dolphin is in like a tub, so it's still nice and it's still, you know, yeah, on the train tracks. This is a dangerous roadway, is what I've concluded. The tub is tied to the train tracks. There's a rope over the tub attached to get to it. Oh, no, I'm really one of this. The conscious experience of the animal would be a factor of we're dealing with animals, right? Does a dog have more of a right to live than like an ant? Probably save the elephant because the dolphin's more rapey. Dogs can have jobs. Seeing eye dogs and all that, you know, you might actually, that's true. It's the think of the autonomy. Mother fucker's got a job. Got to save it. What if it's, yeah, exactly, a seeing eye dog or something versus just a cat or a... That's gonna have jobs. I mean, not that the dog needs even more help, but yeah. Not my cat. We have a couple of pest control cats that are officially adopted by a county near where I live, so they're gonna have jobs. Yeah, that's just like any cat, right? Yeah, that's the natural state of a cat is to, yeah, kill mice. Like they don't get a badge for doing that. Yeah, that doesn't count. Elephants are able to mourn. Yeah, that's why I bring up the elephant because elephants are hyper-intelligent animals. Yeah, I'd probably save the elephant, I think. Or an orangutan or, yeah, like a dolphin. I think a lot of people treat it that way. If they're intelligent beings, it's pretty simple. Yeah, no one's gonna be like that. It's my no-be-cursable cockroaches. Well, I was about to say, yeah. You're also disgusting. Well, but then that's the interesting thing because rats are very intelligent, but I feel like if you put a rat up against a cat... That's the tricky one. A lot of people would kill the rat instead of the cat. And how much of it should depend on the, I guess, how well a species is able to portray it? Like a panda. You kill a panda, you are seriously hurting like the survivability of pandas as a species compared to a rat. Yeah, I mean, rats spread diseases that kill you, and cats spread diseases that make you love cats more. So I think it's a pretty easy one. Yeah, that's telling me on this rat. It said 5 million people chose on this question, and 85% would kill the lobsters. Yeah, that's unsurprising. That's it. That's interesting. I thought it would be way higher. Yeah, they're like 9 to 9. Yeah, it would be like 15% rolls. Well, what's funny is actually, if you look at the photo as is, I would actually say, logically, if you didn't want to kill anybody, do it towards the cat. And the lobsters might go under the rails or might get crushed. I don't know. I don't think the lobsters, but if you follow the exact, philosophical problem, yes. But if you break it to the cat, the cat will just like bolt. Yeah, I was going to say, that cat looks like he's no. Well, that cat is tied in the mouth, exactly. I'm catching him. The lobsters' brains might not even be able to handle the concussive force of just the train going over top of them, even if it doesn't touch them. That's possible. The point of all of this is that, why would you say that it's worthless to have these conversations? How is this not true? It's not true ethical discussions. They're all fake. Fake ethical discussions. Okay, whatever. Okay, let's get the lobsters and cats. Go over and see a lame corner while we have fun with hypotheticals. Yeah. For many others. He's upset. He's just upset that communism in this country will always be hypothetical. Hey, oh, get fucked, comrade. Someone's not in the watch together. One of you. Fuck it. Yeah, it's probably me. I just. Wow, Marcus. Oh, what a fake Marcus. Okay, what's new guys? And then I was listening to the show and was like, Hey, who's doing that? I'm like, oh, yeah. That's pretty funny. I don't care. Train trap because it wasn't on the train from going off the cliff. But I'm okay now. Honestly, who cares? How are you? In other words, you can't do ethics hypothetically. And for many others, the jolly problem is. Oh, you're still one of the things. You don't realize we're playing the video. We did. Yeah. The last 30 minutes as we were doing ethics hypothetically. But apparently we were all just hallucinating because you can't actually do that. Just maybe ethics doesn't count. I guess he's trying. He would be trying to say it doesn't map to reality in any like cogent way. Bullshit. Yeah. I don't really think I buy. And I definitely don't think he means that ethics like hypothetically, like you have to do a thing for it to be ethics. It can't just be discussions on it. Which again, that is like. That is like whole conversation about ethics. Practical ethics. It depends on whether or not you believe the ethics is like a manifest. Is the product of the actions or like ethics stems from within your mind, you know, like that's that's a whole conversation in and of itself. But yeah. But surely even if you think like, I don't think like that any thought can be moral or immoral, it has to be have some like action attached to it. But those thoughts will inform the things that you'll do, which makes them very valuable and worthwhile of pondering. It's just like a different subfield. You have applied ethics. You have normative ethics and you have meta ethics. Like I don't know why we're trying to say that only one of them actually exists. Don't forget Lewis ethics. Or maybe meta ethics does exist. Lewis ethics. When I was writing my my paramedic licensing exam, every single question was just a hypothetical situation. And and then like five questions based around that one hypothetical situation for the question. Because it's always you respond to a call and you see blank. And then six or seven questions about how you deal with that call. So it's like how how are you possibly making the assertion that you can hypothetically teach people about ethical decisions? Because a lot of a lot of medical judgment stuff is just medical ethics. It's like what what is the right thing to do in this situation? And that's it's kind of the hardest thing to actually learn and be confident on. So that I mean the only way to teach people is to ask them questions and have them run through the hypotheticals, though. Anyone have anything to say to that? No, you just gotta fucking kill them in real life. I'm I'm just I'm fucking killing the lobsters, man. Down they go. Oh, fine. Oh, that's delicious lobsters for dinner. I just noticed in the drawing here there's like a spear parking. Yeah. You got us a little great work. Why did he draw cheaty as a white guy in that picture? That's very offensive. This is an example image. He's wearing black. Yeah, he's got. Yeah, that's some mental and helping us think about actual might even have caught on precisely because it has nothing to do. I love this image. The trolley problem guy is really funny. Wait a minute. One of them looks happy. Look at the one that has the Leva draws until the next day. Yeah, I know. Maybe he's just straddling it or something. Literally our actual moral struggles. Even in the good doesn't that picture it really makes you want like a wears Waldo with the trolley problem. You have to figure out what the ethical question even is. Yeah, wears Waldo. Mental and helping us think about actual moral dilemmas. Might even have caught on precisely because it has nothing to do with our actual moral struggles. Even in the good place. How does it? How do how do how do they reach this conclusion? I don't understand. This is just an exploration of two things you care about and then you have to weigh up which one you care more about basically. No. Why not? How is the way that you think about morality influencing the moral things you do in your life? Gee, I can't imagine how those two things might be connected. No clue. Imagine like, you know, your family invited you to a party and you accidentally double book on the same time and day as going out with a friend and then you're like, I'm going to choose the family because I haven't seen them in a long time or there's a bigger group of them and there's more people to let down if I don't turn up. And if someone said like, yeah, but that's not them dying. I'd be like, that's the the fucking Jesus. I, the probably my one favorite moment in my Baldur's Gate playthrough was a major question that you had. I won't spoil it, but it's a question of who you, a faction you have to side with or not. And I found myself really conflicted by the time I actually had to get to it and working my way through that decision was probably the single best time I have and it wasn't written by Bethesda. No, I'm not an Australian. The demon enjoys torturing moral philosopher Cheety with the trolley problem because it's so disconnected from real life. And this is particularly painful for some enjoys torturing with it because it's so disconnected from real life. Well, no, a demon would torture you with things that what that is that? I haven't seen the show if that doesn't seem right. He does it does it's not connected to real life. There's no way that can't be true. So in the show, he's trying to teach the demon ethics and he was using the trolley thing as a hypothetical to explain ethics to him. So the demon is like, oh, like let's make this. This seems a little abstract. Let's make it more grounded. So he's making him actually drive through or appear to be driving through real people and killing them. That's why he has the blood all over himself. And the character Cheety, like his whole character is that he's always conflicted. He never knows what decision or what choice to make in life. So this is just a bizarre example. I was going to say like, well, how does that play into? Like it's like it's meaningless because it's not real. What it's like, please make yourself clear because this is insane. Someone like Cheety who died because he couldn't break free from internal deliberation in order to focus on his actual life. You're incapable of making a single decision. Look, I know I can be indecisive, but what's the harm in taking a few extra minutes to find the perfect. Okay, he didn't die because he was indecisive. He died because of fucking air condition. I hit him in the head. Yeah, that's not good. That's not a good. That's not fair at all. What are that? I also acknowledge that I just spoiled a plot point of the show with a good place, but it's been out for a very long. Oh, look, it's relevant to our spoiler talk. You've had a good chance. You guys should watch this. It's great. And honestly, it's a very good show. No, I know how it ends. That little spoiler ruins your. Oh, just move on. I don't want to hear what you have to say about spoiler either. Please. Yeah. Like, I can't believe you still on this. Are you talking? He's talking about hypotheticals, though. Well, he's about to say like, spoilers don't actually matter. It's the journey, but I just like, get on with it. Don't want to talk about that right now. I don't know. My journey leads to a meat grinder. I'm not going to take it. Writer's Adrian Rennick's and Nathan J. Robinson. Is that the best picture of Adrian Rennick's you could find? I guess. Two more. You think there have to be better photos of the person who wrote the good play. You took that. You got the picture of Adrian Rennick's with half their face covered up. That's probably no. These people did not write that show. They're just other people. He wants to say. Oh, okay. I thought you said they wrote something. Do you not? You're enjoying writers. I think that's more of a you problem than a me problem. I'm just saying. Writer's Adrian Rennick's and Nathan J. Robinson discuss this in a 2017 current affairs article with the subtle title. The trolley problem will tell you nothing useful about morality. Oh, so they're dumb. How? And maybe it's a good thing his face was covered then. It turns us into horrible people and discourages us from examining the structural factors that determine our choices. How? How when it does the opposite find this obstacle? It turns us into horrible people. No, it helps us examine what is the most moral choice in a difficult scenario instead of me just knee-jurking it whenever they pop up for no for whatever reason. What? What a useful to do. Free speech was a mistake. Yes. Enough of that free speech. Get out of here. Also, I mean, he's citing just some random website to try to prove the invalidity of one of the most common ethical dilemma hypotheticals that, you know, like, it seems like if you're going to say, hey, this is not useful and it's been proven why maybe an academic journal might be a better source to cite. Ooh. Or at least elaborate in some way. Yeah, I don't know if any of these people are. Yeah, it's kind of random. Yeah, but random people on current affairs. It's just an appeal to authority. Like just pulling up some stupid article instead of actually discussing it because he's already said the six times. What's the point of picking up an article? Ideally, he's probably going to, like, summarize it, right? And actually accurately. Ideally. In it, they argue that if we ended up in a trolley situation in real life, we would panic, do something rashly, and then watch in horror as one or more persons. Yeah, that's the only thing that can happen. Not if we practice mentally for it, maybe. He said it'll end up being that people will die and gruesome death before our eyes. Like, yes, of course. Yes. No matter what. Yes. But the idea that you would try to prevent panic by essentially training yourself mentally. Yes. Or are we going to deny it? Otherwise, we would have to say that that's not possible. And that's absurd, the idea that you can't mentally prepare yourself for something in real life. Spider-Man saves both. I mean, it's literally, like, this is what... He's fucking Spider-Man. Like, this is the concept of training. So that, like, whether it's the military, whether it's first responders, doctors, whether it's anything, the whole point is when the situation happens, your training kicks in and you do what you need to do. So you don't panic in that moment. Exactly, yeah. But do you think, like, this is literally martial arts? Martial arts? Everything. This is the whole point of training. That's the whole concept of training. Humans. Oh, like, in Stoicism, right, the idea of meditating on potential misfortune in the future so that you understand how you feel about it, you can prepare for it in the future. Meditating on death so that, like, when that time approaches, you know, as you're naturally sort of getting older, you're kind of prepared for it. Like, and that's, again, beyond the things that you've brought up of just training. The family members. The training is about understanding these things. Yeah, that's why, wow. When I... This is legitimately a bizarre thing to say because, yeah, this is the entire purpose of training. You might, but if you're trained, you're less likely to panic. Exactly. It's the idea that, like, by meditating, by thinking about it, are you going to be worse off? Are you going to be worse off than having considered the trolley problem in any counter again? A hypothetical of, like, what would you do if a person killed your kid and you were in front of them with a gun? Would you kill them sort of? A hypothetical like that and then someone says, like, well, that doesn't matter because if that happened in real life, it'd be completely different. There are people who have done it. They kill that person. They just fucking stone cold do it. Now, the idea that you're like, yeah, but, I mean, that's, like, one guy or whatever, and it's just, like, it's a fucking worthy hypothetical. These situations come up in all forms of life at all scales. I don't understand. Like, I just read ahead of this thing as well, this whole section. I just don't understand the point they're trying to make. So you probably end up with PTSD. What does that have to do with anything? Yeah, maybe. Do you think that you're more likely or less likely to end up with PTSD if you really give these things some mental preparedness and you think about them and you ask yourself what you're going to do and you give yourself a bit of time or if you shelter yourself from the world's, you know, issues and potential problems and just go for the best. That's what this article would need to argue, like that it's worse off. The idea that it's neutral, it's like, okay, maybe, but am I worse off for having considered the trolling problem beforehand? If not, then what's the problem? I think that, like, the unlikelihood it really has no bearing on the validity of it. Like, there are people, there are probably hundreds of people trained right now to respond to a nuclear attack. Will we have a nuclear attack? The likelihood, probably not. It's completely irrelevant. It's about just being ready. So you, so in that situation you're prepared to actually react effectively rather than just stopping and having to think and like panic. Like it's just, yeah. Let's go with a, let's go with a scenario that probably happens hundreds of times every day, right? Probably more, right? Really basal ground level kind of example. While I was working, I think I've said to what's told the story before, when I was working in a restaurant once, one of the customers started choking on some food and I performed the Heimlich maneuver on them and unchoked them, very probably saved their life, right? And the reason that I was able to do that was I didn't even think about doing it because I'm an Eagle Scout, I did search and rescue. I knew the Heimlich maneuver. You just do it. Someone's choking. The Heimlich maneuver is what you do. You get them to stand up. When you see he's choking, you get behind him, tell him to stand up, you get behind him, you put your hands where they need, you do the thing, you save the dude's life and it's just, that's just what you do because you're prepared for it. And no one else in that fucking restaurant, which was not empty, did it. And so these are like, it's a Heimlich maneuver. Everyone, everyone who's watching this, learn how to do the Heimlich maneuver and learn CPR. Learn these two things. They're super easy, they're super quick and they will fucking save lives. So please do that. And you can easily do that. This is real shit that happens. Like training kicks in, completely panicking when it happens. You don't want to be helpless in that situation and watch a loved one die because you didn't take the time to actually learn something that could be so effective. One thing that will alleviate panic it's knowing for sure what you were supposed to do. I know what to do. I've trained for this. I know what I need to do. And bearing in mind that the training is designed with the knowledge that when it really happens, yeah, of course you're gonna, like it's of course, it's gonna be different. But that's why the training takes that into account. Remember your training. Remember your training. If you're nervous, remember you're trained for this. You are prepared. Military water comes back naturally. Remember your training, default to your training. That'll get you through. That's, you know, yeah. Training and knowing, knowing how to react with the skills that you've trained to do well is the easiest way to suppress a fear response in an intense situation. It's because you're not thinking about how you're feeling. You're thinking about what you need to do and because you know what to need to do, what you need to do, it's almost like you're not thinking at all. You're just doing the thing that you need to do to make them. That's how it should be. It should be ingrained in you at that point. You shouldn't have to stop and think about and process it. Is it brown bears that you're supposed to stay still? Oh, okay. So the saying is that if it's black, black back, if it's brown, lay down, if it's white, good night. Yeah, so if it's a black bear, you want to stand up, make a lot of noise, you want to do all that stuff. Loud noises, make yourself big, swing your arms around, don't run away. If it's a brown bear, like a grizzly bear, you lay down and play dead and you hope things turn out okay. And if it's a polar bear, you're fucked. But I got to be honest, any bear, I'm out. Important caveat, important caveat about the polar bear is you want to make sure and you want to check first and see if they have coca-colas with them. If they do, they're friendly, they're super chill and they'll be your friend. The commercial ones. Yes, but if they don't, then yeah. Well, like imagine you're given that advice and then they follow up with, by the way, you could probably simulate that right now, like lying down or standing still, making noise and stuff. It's going to be different when there's an actual bear. And then you'd be like, yeah, I figure. You know what I'm saying? Anyway, I strongly recommend watch some videos of black bears climbing up trees before assuming that you can get away from one. Well, it's the thing with hippos, right? Hippos are much faster than human beings. You cannot outrun a hippo. Well, what you do is you wait for the hippo to charge, right? And you're still, you're watching that hippo. You stare it straight in the eyes as it's charging towards you. And then when it's about like two feet in front of you, you go, whoa. And then you just dodge right to the left or right really quickly. Now next hippo will flip over, lose its balance. It'll go, whoa. And it'll flip over and start rolling around. And then you can make your escape. This is a really bad article. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I've been reading. Well, I had a feeling about that. Keebekins actually just sent me some great lines from the article. The article says that the trolley problem may not be much different from playing Mary fuck kill or asking horrible questions like if you had to kill one of your parents, which one would it be? And I love both of those games. I play them all the time with my parents. The trolley. How many times can you play the parent game, Rags? I could understand someone not wanting to. Well, every week I do it again and give them an update on my decision. There you go. You have them constantly vying for each other. They keep some on their toes. It's a good game to play. Yeah, the parent one could be easy though. I think because I think initially I would say my dad because my dad will want me to kill him over my mom. But now my mom's in much poorer health than my dad. So I don't know if it's more complicated now. The article insinuates that there's no point in talking about morals at dilemmas in which there's no right answers in which like everything good can happen, I guess. Yeah, I think it's a good answer. Yeah. Even if you're not going to run into a trolley problem in real life, like the situation is extremely abstract in terms of what's actually happening, you're going to run into a lot of situations where your agency is constrained. There's going to be a lot of situations where you cannot accomplish exactly what you would want to do and you're going to have to compromise with lesser or by your consideration worse outcomes. That's the whole point of the hypothetical and it's like they try to just skip that part. I hate to keep bringing this back to politics. But this article, well, the guys that wrote this article and Wisecrack, I mean, they are all socialists and this article is written from the perspective of like this idea that if, oh, while you're concentrating on like who you're going to sacrifice in the trolley problem, you're not asking the real question. It's like who has the power to pull the lever that rich elite who's really controlling you, that rich elite that put the trolley on the track in the first place. Ever wonder who built the trolley? Yeah. The article also says, the trolley problem conveniently involves making no actual sacrifices yourself, which doing the right thing almost always entails in reality. Even though I imagine making the very important moral decision of who to kill in a scenario is that's asking a lot of somebody. I can't speak from experience, I can't speak from experience, but I have to imagine that the physical act of pulling a lever that you know is going to cause someone to die strikes you psychologically differently to like freezing out and allowing death. I would imagine. Not to like self aggrandize the person in the situation as some making some great sacrifice necessarily, but it's going to affect them. Likewise, we're going to forget that moment. It gives you, it still gives you moral culpability with your inaction as well though. So even like you can't just say, well in real life, you have to make a sacrifice. It's like what in real life, your sacrifice might be not pulling the lever or pulling the lever depending on what your moral priorities are and how you're, how you think about the situation. So it's like, well, no, you don't, you don't even get to say, well, I don't have any sacrifice to make in the trolley problem because either way, you're responsible for death. That now I'm done. Oh, it works both ways. It says the trolley problem is repulsive because it encourages people to think about playing God and choosing which people to kill. Calm down. Okay, this person's type is sensitive. It is as irrelevant as the asteroid orphans dilemma because who would you murder in extreme situation X is not even a distant parallel to the issues that would likely come up in your own life. It warps moral sensibilities and encourages us to think about isolated moments of individual choice rather than the context in which those choices occur. So great article. I don't know why you come to both. I don't know. Don't ask me. I don't speak retard. Oh. Oh. It's died of gruesome death before our eyes. We would probably end up with PTSD. Whatever we had ended up doing in the moment, we probably feel guilty about for the rest of our lives. Even if we had somehow miraculously managed to comply with a consistent set of consequentialist ethics, this would bring us little comfort. In other words, getting an A in ethics class isn't going to matter after you willfully choose to take the life of another. Another. What? I don't know. So now he's discrediting ethics as a whole? Wait. I think I need to hear that again because that sounded profoundly retarded. We would probably end up with PTSD. Whatever we had ended up doing in the moment, we probably feel guilty about for the rest of our lives. Even if we had somehow miraculously managed to comply with a consistent set of consequentialist ethics, this would bring us little comfort. In other words, getting an A in ethics class because I think there's a lot of people and I think I'm one of those people but I'm not certain who can look at a situation and say I did the best thing I could have possibly done in a situation that was really tough. I can't beat myself and blame myself for it. What happened was a tragedy but I did the best that I could. And I think a lot of people would look at that and be like, yeah, it sucks that it happened but I'm not going to be like, this isn't going to be some moral anchor that I drag around for the rest of my life. But it's not on the person. Some people can't necessarily rationalize things in the same way that someone else can. I'm not mourning dead lobsters. Like just get over that shit pretty quick. I'm praising dead lobsters because dead lobsters mean good dinners. This sounds like a response to the idea that it will prep you and you will resultedly not have any kind of like, you know, mental trauma when it's like, well, no, you can't guarantee that. It's better to have it than not as a prep, isn't it? It can't hurt. I don't see how it can hurt. This isn't going to matter after you willfully choose to take the life of another. In other words, the trolley problem itself is some real sicko. The way it's used. Sicko shit. No, it's to avoid us doing. No, it's it's literally the way that I imagine virtually every single person who engages with a trolley problem is so that they make the most moral decision, not the most immoral decision. Right. I'm not trying to calculate what's the most evil thing I can do in the trolley problem scenario, which is just the inverse of the other option anyway, because there's generally only two choices. But I don't think anyone engages with a trolley problem. Well, if you ask me the trolley problem, my response was you're being mean. I just don't understand where this implication in both the article and what he's saying is really coming from. I don't know anyone who has ever engaged with the trolley problem in that sort of way. Is he implying that it's an ineffective question because there's no option to just save both? Like I was kidding about the Spider-Man thing. He's implying it's an ineffective question because it doesn't map readily to already present moral dilemmas that we experience in real life and also because it encourages focusing on the action itself in a void of context as opposed to the underlying structures that can underpin such as dilemma. The point is you're all hypotheticals. Yeah. It's the whole point. Sometimes you're forced to be in these situations. That's my entire point of these hypotheticals. I'm trying to just do that. I just don't understand why entertaining a hypothetical means I can't also have some inquisition into the underpinning structures of that hypothetical. If these would be like the five people are capitalists and the one is a socialist so now it's difficult, isn't it? You'd be like... Of framing it as sadism is so fucking ridiculous. Like how dare you put those people on the track in your mind? Even in the most uncomfortable of hypotheticals in comparisons there's still value to exploring those ideas. Even if it makes you uncomfortable to think about it there's usually a benefit to it and to say there isn't you're going to have to actually argue that. These guys are not doing that. And the trolley problem is flexible enough that you can make variations like that and see how it changes your answer. Because... It's like how interesting. Yeah, it's a good framework. Usually discussed helps disguise this insanity as it's usually implied that we can make ethical decisions that involve no sacrifices from ourselves which encourages the idea that ethics involves. That is a thing that does happen. We do make decisions every once in a while that really doesn't affect us necessarily but it hurts particular groups of people in some small way. Like that example I gave of two events you could go to one with all the family one with a good friend. It's like and both of them are really happy to see you and you have to not go to one. Oh no. Here's a great trolley problem that probably happens every day. Cut facts. You got to fire somebody. Who do you fire? Somebody's got to go. Yeah. Ooh, we got another one. Moral agency is constrained sometimes in the real world. Like crazy. Who would have thought? Fire the owner of the factory. That's right. Close the whole factory down. There you go. Well, also as you said, like you deciding whether someone lives or dies affects you. That's a very weird framing. Yeah. This whole question. You have to sacrifice possibly a lot or a little of your sanity. You make the- That's nothing. Loser. Get over it. Get better help. Oh no. Functional choices from the sidelines. This also implies that we usually act in situations where we have perfect knowledge of all potential. No, it doesn't. That's just- Now, and plus, the whole point of the trolley problem is all of the information is self-contained there. It's you and the problem and how you engage with it. Right. That's all that there is. And precisely part of the deal with the trolley problem is the limited information because there's permutations where they expand upon the information given. I'm right. We're trying to figure out what matters the most. Yes. When in real life, that's simply not the case. This all assumes a pretty legal fatalism. Imagining a world or an ethical decision making is about choosing the least worst option among a bunch of bats. That's how we do it in a lot of situations. That is real life. Welcome to life. Like, hey, the least worst option is also the best option. How do you make the world a better place? You make the least worst choice enough times. Okay, capitalist. Jesus. Bad ones. Vegu refers to this as humanitarian ethics, which he describes as miserable moralism in the name of which we are obliged to accept prevailing way of the world and its absolute injustice. What does that even... I don't think we have... No, I don't think going along with the Charlie problem means that you're accepting that the world is a horrible place and that it's always going to be a horrible place and nothing good can ever happen. That's a really stupid thing to say. I don't know. What does this happen with the Charlie problem? I don't get it. I also don't trust this quote. Like, I trust that the quote was probably verbatim, but I imagine it's extrapolated out of its context. Well, to answer your question, Fringy, what he's trying to get at is that by accepting the fatalistic nature of the Charlie problem, that you have to choose between one of these two tracks, you're saying like, it's like in real life, in society. You know, we walk around choosing to not have a revolution, choosing to partake in this corrupt system. Okay. I'm living a society. Yes. Being prepared. Being prepared for what you have to choose from. I thought it was just that when you have two bad options, you just got to try and figure out the option that you think minimizes harm or comports most with your principles. I thought that was it. No. No. Maximize harm. Yeah. Yeah. We're nihilists. When they present you the Charlie problem, you say, fuck this, I'm going to go to the right system. I'm going to tear the system down. It sounds like is when we were trying to explain that Batman can kill hypothetically. And there was always the argument of no, Batman will always find a way. Or no, that's not on Batman. That's not Batman. You shouldn't concoct situations like this. It's the right as responsibility to never put Batman in that situation. What's being presumed here is imagine someone presents you with the Charlie problem and you respond in this way. You don't have to presume that the world is always going to be a shitty place in order to go along with the Charlie problem. If they were like, don't you think of a world where the Charlie problem's happening all the time would be horrible? It's like, of course. Why do you? It's like worst case scenario. You don't really want that funnily enough. And yet you imagine it. Imagine a lot of things. It's fucking weird. Imagine a bunch of babies falling out of a big hospital and the flash puts one in microwave. Does the psychological phenomenon like, you know, when you're driving or you're standing by a really high place and you're suddenly compelled to like you start ideating about what it would be like to throw yourself over the side or whatever. But it's like that phenomenon, the non-suicidal one. Like, is that, does that reflect upon you psychologically? Does that make you a sick person? I don't know. Seek better help. Be reminded of your reality. It's just something that happens sometimes, you know? Like when you look up at the sky sometimes, it just makes you feel really, really small. You just get reminded of like, you know, how massive it is. There's, you have those moments and there's nothing wrong with that. Sometimes that reminder is good. That's part of these reason these hypotheticals are effective. But they're so afraid of considering anything that would make, you know, like, I don't know. It's such a weird way to look at it instead of being prepared for the worst-case scenario. It also encourages the idea that ethical decision should be made in some top-down way by benevolent, ethical elite. What are you talking about? What? What? You know, it's not a revolt, man. See, I read this and I have no idea how to even respond to it. Isn't the premise of the trolley problem that you've found yourself in this situation so presumably the person who tied up all the other people and put them on the track made you pull the lever or not? That's kind of always the way I framed it. Now that you just walked across this situation. I didn't know that the takeaway from the trolley problem is put your faith in benevolent, like, in the all-knowing benevolent. Like, what is this? That's because the trolley problem is the shadows cast the cone, the cave wall by fire and you just don't see the reality for what it is. When someone has the little set and they have the trolley going back and forth and they've got the little people and they're trying to explain it to you or drawing and then someone else points out it's like, you understand people aren't this small. Right now, you're pretending you're like a god and you're sitting there like, what the fuck, man? How are the people going to fit in the building? Is it for ants? Pleats, which disguises many of the material power release. Trolley problem for ants. How we make ethical and political decisions and this way the trolley problem is less about ethics and more about training future technocrats to pick how many of us it's okay to kill with your bro. That is ethics. So ridiculous. Wow. It's less about ethics and more about ethics. Ethics and more about probably the most important ethical question the tech firms can ask themselves before we get self-driving cars. Let's make sure they get it right, shall we? Instead of being like, oh, you fucking stupid trolley problem. No, they should be thinking about that one pretty hard, man. Oh, no. Theo's discote crashed. You won't be able to hear the cringe. Oh, is that what that was? No, did that kill Theo? Makes sense. We're cool new products. As Renix and Robinson argue, the trolley problem is repulsive because it encourages people to think about playing God and choosing which people to kill. That happens. What? This happens. Oh, my God. People choose who's going to die in life. It happens, the thing. Yes. Yeah. It's so funny that it's like, you shouldn't play God and you're sitting there with a lever like, well, do you want to decide then? You do it. It's not even like he made the point that this is why there should not be self-driving cars and we should all be rallying against this idea. He's just like, well, you know, it would be better if just everybody lives. Problem solved. I don't want a technocratic developer looking at Wikipedia with the trolley problem to decide whether or not my baby gets killed and run over. That's fucked up. That's the other way. People have to vaguely do this with all, by the way. An example I see trotted out a lot is the decision to use nuclear weapons against Japan and well, yes. Oh, wait. Are you just for just? Yeah. Anytime, anywhere. Does he provide an alternative to this at the end? Like, what is the alternative to the trolley problem? So far, this is terrible in terms of trying to convince us that the trolley problem is worthless. Like, this has been piss. It warps human moral sensibilities. No, it does not warp it. What do you mean? Oh, this is like, this was the thing in the article that was so stupid that it's when Keebakin said, sent to me and said, wow, this article so dumb. Look at what he says in this video. He's highlighting it. Look at what the article says. He's highlighting it. I don't understand. Like, how does entertaining in these isolated moments of individual choice take away our ability to understand wider contexts? Is that dumb? Yeah, the whole point is to point out the context. People are pretty smart. I can accept the trolley problem and give an answer to it while also acknowledging that these circumstances should not come to pass, morally speaking. Well, and it sounds like the problem they have is actually teaching people what the point of hypotheticals are, right? Because if someone says, I hate the big kahuna burger and you're like, why? And it's only about the sauce. Like, oh, you like the burger as a whole then. And they're like, yeah, but I'm never going to have a big kahuna burger without the sauce, OK? So you've just tripped. You've warped me into thinking I would have to make that decision. And it's like, what the fuck? That's the point. I'm trying to figure out what you have an issue with. I didn't realize that you didn't understand that. I will unwarp your mind and say we're trying to split it up into different pieces, OK? I think what they're trying to say by this context line is they're trying to say, like, oh, you're concentrated on like what person on the track to save as opposed to why are you in that position in the first place? Why are those people on the tracks? Oh, yeah. You have to fight the system, OK? Yeah. Challenge every hypothetical at the fucking source. Yes. God, I can already imagine the system wants us to fight each other, sir. This is totally what would happen where you give the hypothetical and then they say, but that's not the case, though. And you're warping me. No, brothers, we should be fighting the hypotheticals. Have you seen the song threw it on the ground? Yeah. Have I seen the song threw it on the ground? Well, the music video. Yes, I have. It's good. No, I have. Yeah, like, you know, when the when he's like, my girlfriend hands me the cell phone and says, it's your dad. And I said, that's not my dad. That's a cell phone idiot. And I threw it on the ground. Like, I feel like that is this video. That's what I mean. As far as I'm concerned, you unwarp the mind when the mind is like, I will never touch that hypothetical because it's not real. It's not true. I don't know. I can't hit me. It's not real. Like, it's OK. Just delve into it for a moment. I think. The problem with the trolley problem is it's fucking boring. That's the that's why it's always in your mind. We move on. Yeah, the problem. Putting lobsters on the fucking thing. I rolling into just permutations. Now your mind. When he says the trolley problem is a joke, I'm assuming you saw my all versions. Yeah, I would assume so. Here's your modern trolley problem. Somebody better hypotheticals than the trolley problem. Geez. Please. Yeah, but this is the starting point. 1950 calls and they want their fucking hypothetical back. There's one of the other major problems that he could have touched on, but he didn't. Is the of the time when you talk about the trolley problem, you get so caught up in just various new permutations to respond to each individual thing a person says that you lose any sort of course in terms of what is to be learned from this discussion in the first place. Which is a better argument. No more. Yes. Yeah. Where are the trolleys? Are these even exist? What is a trolley? Who knows? The high speed. Isolated moments of individual choice rather than the context in which those choices occur. It is a scapist and that it allows us to comfortably drift into the realm of the implausible and ridiculous. No comfortably drift into the very specific elements that make you decide whether or not something should or shouldn't happen. I also feel like a lot of people don't even find it like comfortable. No, it's not. The idea of the trolley problem being comfortable is strange. I feel like often it's kind of challenging to deal with makes you think. What you'll find, Gallo's humor comes out immediately when talking about the trolley problem. Wonder why. Yeah, exactly. Why is that? So that we do not gonna die. So that we do not always find disturbing treats about our real world. I mean, there are more hypotheticals than just the trolley problem that people can do. I assume this guy hates all of them then, right? Also like we're just cribbing this article a lot. Yes. If you want. I think that was the last thing I saw from them that they just like cited a bunch of obscure philosophers from like 500 years ago and said see, they said that. So therefore we're right. It was just kind of we're just citations here and there. And there's that they I just I find that it's interesting to see different arguments, especially if you can compare like one person's argument for or against something. But when you just cite people and it's like up there. That's the truth because they said it just seems kind of shallow and appeal to authority. Setting a primary source. Like if you're saying you read the writings of a philosopher from 500 years ago, I think I I take that as a better grounding than hey, these two people who we found on Twitter last week wrote that. This article they're reading this is what cites the good place. So I assume that's where they got that from as well. The video is just based entirely on this. If you saw those two guys in the beginning of those outfits, would you trust anything they say about anything? I mean, did the people who wrote this article just write this video and he's reading it? There was no citation on the quotes he was giving from the prior philosopher were there. That was just a quote and just expected you to believe it. Right. It's a lot of work. Motherfuckers cite your sources. The trolley problem really is about ordering the moral worth of different people and numbers of people and different things. And as a communist, that probably really upsets him. But there's like this hierarchy of value. Yeah, like you'd save the rich man because he's worth more morally. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That's because he pays me more rich people. That's one of the trolley problems is so boring. It's like why are you just valuing things? Why do we even have to why are you just why are you valuing things? Why are you just valuing things? It's like, I can't help it. It's valuing nothing. Okay. This could be boring, but it's super effective and all this stuff just to say, oh, that's worth more than this. It's like, why? The real trolley problem is just how many damn trolleys are in San Francisco, man. There's too many trolleys. Yeah. Stop it. A better person, you can start by never wasting a second of your life contemplating. But now with bad people contemplating trolley problems. Yep. This is annoying. Yeah, that last line. That last line is ridiculous. This is annoying. Be better and don't explore your own morality. The video is just cribbing the article. Like he's just reading out what's on the screen. Well, he's highlighting it. So, you know, yeah, like put it in your own words. This is bad foam. Also, isn't that a copyrighted feature there? Highlighting. I feel like. Don't tell love. What's her name? Blair. Yeah. Illuminati. It looks like Mr. Indigo Gaming is going to jump out. Is that right? I got that right. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's been a pleasure, sir. Thank you for joining us. Obviously, we'll be going for a while, so maybe we'll catch you at another time as well. Who knows? Yeah, who knows? Some guys are going on for another like 17 hours or something like that. So, maybe. I've been absurd, yeah. So, as always, thanks for inviting me on and enjoy the rest of the video. Later on, sir. See you later, man. Later, man. Bye. See you later. Bye. Bye. Boyd trolley problems at all cost. Well, I mean, if you want to be a better person, yeah. Right. Don't even ride a trolley, honestly. I've been on a trolley. Have you said you've been on a trolley? Did you run over anybody? I have spent much time in San Francisco and I've been on the San Francisco trolley. So, yeah. But did you actually kill anybody? They overrated and no, we never ran over anyone. It was kind of disappointing. Wait. Streetcars. What's my name? I was going to say, do TTC streetcars count as trolleys? I was thinking that this entire time, like, what the fuck is a trolley? Are they talking about streetcars? Like, I think that must be it. Yeah. I don't know what the difference is. I don't have them, I guess. Well, what is the fact that you're locked in? The concept works. Capital opinions. Hello there. Oh, we have a comment. Howdy. Hello. Go on the screen. Just in time. To hear about some wonderful basic ethics we're talking about. And now we're at Baboon. I love Wisecrack and I hate hypotheticals. So this is going to be great. Why are you kind of annoying me now? Do you guys know if, for the prior philosopher, he even stated the book title he was taking his quotes from? Books are gay. Why would they even bother? Look at the stupid quotes. Lane Babadoo. Babo. Bowook? Baboon. Baboon? They got him from the book. The Babo book. That's still not good enough, but it's acceptable, I guess. Well, it's not, but, you know. Yo, they do this all the time. All these philosophy channels, they just read articles and papers and then just crib the pieces one to one. Philosophy Tube does this all the time. I'm surprised that this would have been thrown out the second they read. Like, if you want to be a better person, stop contemplating trolley problems. Like, fuck it, L. Yeah, that's a worthless line. Also, Link is around there somewhere, Mr. Opinions. If you go past all of the trolley problems, you'll find it up there. Trolley problems. I don't think these guys like it. I'm going to say that. I don't think they like the trolley problem. One bit, you know. I'm not a genius. I'm good at reading. And I think I like how that's like the thing that he's added and it's just worthless. Yeah, I don't think I like the trolley problem. Anyway, more of the article. Is that him asserting that he doesn't agree? Uh, well, I mean, the video is saying that the trolley problem is a joke, so I think it's just meant to be a meme. Is this the article react equivalent of going, that's crazy, chat. That is not crazy. I mean, a little bit. Yeah, I was just like, the article is bad, but this is really annoying. Well, at least the article is the article presenting the argument, you know. Yeah, most of what we just responded to was the article, not him. Like, he just doesn't offer anything. He hasn't offered anything. He hasn't made a bad joke. Well, he told us what happened in the good place, too. But that was also from the article. That's what I was saying. Like, he doesn't fuck all. You just seen in a show, you know. I remember he repeated it twice. He repeated the explanation of the trolley problem. Like, if it's hot, if you're more of a visual learner, let's move away from this visual to another actually less clear visual. Who invented the trolley problem in hopes of sending them hate mail? It's worth noting that this problem was introduced in philosophy in order to make this exact point. It was made famous by Judith Jarvis-Thompson in 1976, killing, letting die, and the trolley problem. This paper is what made the trolley problem a thing. And led it to becoming a useful proof for lazy professors. I'm pretty sure lazy professors. So first of all, it wouldn't matter if she's the one that created the trolley problem as is. Like, you're not going to find an origin question of hypothetical, like, choosing life over other life. Nobody's got an origin on that one. This problem was first introduced by Philip of not Judith Jarvis-Thompson. Yeah, but she popularized it. The article didn't even get it, right? Yeah, I guess. Well, what year was that? Good job, Judith. I was actually going to say, you've got to be careful, though, even if she did popularize it. If you're going to talk about what it was created for, then you actually do have to talk about the person who made it, right? You can't talk about who popularized it. Well, it's funny because literally the first sentence of her article is giving the other person credit for creating the trolley problem. Like, come on, this is really basic stuff. Is he going to flip this into, and she went on to become Adolf Hitler's right hand? No, he's using her as evidence that it's a stupid thing because she introduced it to point out how stupid it is because it's used for lazy professors. Which is boring. You popularized the question while being used in, like, ethical study, even if she didn't invent the question. Actually, ethics is like a video game. It's also worth noting that in a later paper. Oh, I thought he was going to go and say something interesting. Ethics is like a video game. I thought he was saying, like, ethics is like a video game. The thing for this to explain why he just said it, but he just didn't. There's so many amazing ethical quandaries that come from video game stories and stuff. This is so cringy. Yeah, it's sort of like comparing it to video games is trying to downplay its value, which is pretty lame. But even then, I don't even understand what you mean when you say ethics is a video game. When it manifests in real life in action, that's ethics, right? But you would accept that that's... Or is he just talking about, like, ethics class, like at university? It's so funny though, right? If we rewind before World War II and someone said, I've got a big bomb that could, like, almost wipe out a place, would you use it to prevent a war from happening, or would you not? And then he's like, that's fucking video game shit. You're like, okay. You know what, video game really tested my ethics and my moral fiber? World of Warcraft. No. World. You're sitting there. You're in Stranglethorne Vale. Are you going to kill this level 30 piece of shit human paladin? Absolutely. Anyone who plays this human in any emotion die. Or are you going to just wave? Are you going to wave and just walk by in your little horsey? The thing is, like, with video games though, it's something that people have pointed out plenty of times is that even in video games where the choice doesn't matter in terms of the consequences, what really is relevant to the player is the thoughts that they have about the choice that they made. Why did they make that choice? Was that the right choice compared to, you know, the alternative that was presented to the market? Are we going to say that's not useful either? In, like, video games like Mass Effect, where you're sort of like, hmm. I feel like there's a really not scary video game in which this comes up. We can't talk about it, though, because it freaks us up completely. Hold him back our podcast for years. There's a fantastic video game. I don't know how any of you guys feel about it. That's all about moral questions. Undertale. I've seen a lot of good porn of it, but I haven't actually played the game. I'd go on to tell more about how we interact with content than about moral questions, but I still agree. Well, I mean, it's obviously, it's both of those things, right? I agree with you. But I mean, it's the question is, are you going to kill all these people or not? Some real sicko shit. Yeah, you need to be a better person. The genocide, ironically, is some sicko shit. I mean, it is like, I could try to play it once. I'm like, I can't do this. In order to get more content out of the video game, you are like actively going out of your way to be malicious. It's a specific thing the game's doing, and it's pretty neat. And the game's hyper aware, like you're doing it just to get content. Yeah. Why are you doing this? Burt Thompson imagined a third option with the trolley problem, which was hitting the switch to move the trolley towards yourself. And she concluded that if you're not ready to take yourself out, you can't ethically take anyone else out. But what's funny about that is it sounds like a permutation, which would be interesting to add and to ask people. Yes. It wouldn't just be bullshit that makes you a bad person for thinking about. Well, it's like a permutation that validates the existence of the trolley problem as a hypothetical, isn't it? Because you keep learning a different way. Like you can do apparently in this criticism of the trolley problem, you vindicated it. Yeah. Yeah, because you present the trolley problem, and then he says, you know what's wrong with this? Is there's no personal sacrifice involved? You just flip the switch to go, okay, you can kill yourself. That's an option. Then he'd be like, well, you know what's wrong with it now? Is that you're like, it's... Hey, you added an option without even realizing it. Or imagine you said it's not real. And then you go, okay, and you knock him out, and then you take him to an actual trolley problem. Is this good now? And he's like, I don't like this. Not nice for you. Oh, I don't like this at all. It's not, it's real. I think that seems fair. But Thompson herself took the problem from influential 20th century ethicist, Philip of Foote, and turned 1967 paper, The Problem of Abortion and the Doctrine of Double Effect. The Doctrine of Double Effect is a principle used by Catholic philosophers, including Foote's friend, Elizabeth Panscomb, to support their view of abortion. The main idea is that there is a distinction between what a man foresees as a result of his voluntary action and what in the strict sense he intends. So intentionally performing an abortion aims directly at the termination of the fetus, which for Catholic philosophers equates to murder. But this can be challenged. By the way, all of this is pointless because it's hypotheticals and stuff. Okay, turn it off a bit. Yeah. Did you hear the thought? Yeah. What if the fetus threatens the life of the mother? The Catholic argument... I'm actually lost. You understand this is all trolley problem shit, right? Whenever you talk about any of this. Yes, this is... Would you rather do this or this? You're just changing the aesthetic of the trolley problem. Yeah, I think I might be understanding it incorrectly, but I think I was kind of right with the, he's going to follow this up with, and then she went on to become Adolf Hitler's right-hand philosophy person because he's just doing that and saying, this other group of people who I don't agree with really like this person and the trolley problem, so it's bad. Am I wrong in that? That's what he's doing right now? I don't know. Because as you said, Mahler, he's just proposing another trolley problem, which I'm assuming he would agree with. Like, do you save the life of the mother by getting rid of the fetus, which is a type of a trolley problem? Splitting that makes me think like he's a fucking moron. He's like, look at this dumbass drawing with a little dude in the trolleys and stuff. I was never gonna have an... Anyway, abortion is a very important subject. Yeah, with the fetus, it threatens the mother's life. Like, this is actually something that happens. Trolley problem shit is stupid, because that's never gonna happen. But when you have to choose between two lives, that does happen. What? Okay. What if the pregnant woman is tied to the track and the trolley is a very tiny trolley? That will just hit them right in the baby. Right in the baby. What if it's five pregnant women on a track? What would you do? Oh, my God. Give him your five trolleys. Doctor and a woman are not being permitted to give an abortion, as it would terminate the fetus. But they would be permitted to perform a hysterectomy on the mother, as the death of the fetus here would only be foreseen, not directly intended. They would obviously hope... Okay, I agree. That's a pretty retired... Okay, so that's not the... So that's not... That's a pretty retired idea. The Catholic position is... Yeah, the doctrine of double act is... Yeah. Yeah, the Catholic position is that it's permissible to perform an abortion if it saves the mother's life. Apparently back in those days it wasn't. Because the mother has a chance to go on and create new life and no more kids and everything, and it's a tragedy, but that's their position on the matter. By double effect, the intention is the salvation of the mother's life rather than something else, which is still a little bit, you know, cope. But... Would you say five hydrogen bombs or...? The hydrogen bombs. Yeah, they're more useful. Have we not mentioned Viseris this whole time where we're talking about like difficult, you know, hypothetical situations, you know? Oh, we don't mention the what, sorry? To choose. Viseris. Viseris. Oh, right. Like, the choice you'd have to make. Like, that's just another great one. Like, imagine being thrown in that situation, but then like this guy would just say, oh, that would never happen. Like, it's crazy. Well, yeah, you'd be like, that's fiction, you idiot. Okay. No, that's family, you dumbass. Dragons are real? Fuckin' everybody. Dragons are real, fuck yeah. I hate that. One of the reason people write fiction is to grapple with the ethical questions of real life. Exactly. And that's why we like good fiction, because it gives us, you know, the proper immersion that we're looking for. Well, it's the safe escapism. We don't actually have to deal with this shit. We don't want to actually have to deal with it. I don't want to worry about Vagar outside my window. Yeah. I don't want to fucking see him on screen, you know what I mean? I just wonder why dilemmas like the utility monster don't get this sort of attention. Is it just because they're less popular? Like, nobody's hating on the utility monster as an ethical, like, quandary for utilitarianism. I presume that's the case. The trolley problem is just the most famous and well-referenced. I guess, yeah. The stick figures, man. It's just those cute faces. That's what the... That both mother and baby pulled through. Honestly, though, this is really complicated, which is why I no longer go to cap with doctors. Foot disagreed with this argument. What? But you wanted to seriously... You don't... Is that a... Is that a joke? I don't know. It was an attempt at this joke. It was a joke. Funny. Funny, haha. Haha, funny. You know how good it was. Engage with your friend Anscombe. So her paper thinks about how it would apply in a variety of situations, one of them being the trolley problem. She starts with an example of some pothollers who are being led by a fat man out of a cave who then gets stuck trapping them. If you've never determined pothollers before... I need you to... I need you to focus. Stop giving me these examples when you keep telling me how fucking worth it is to think about them. Like, I need you to focus and tell me what you actually want me to understand from you. Because right now you're like, okay, so there's a cave. There's pothollers. He's a fat guy. My brain's already setting it up in my head. And I'm like, wait, I thought this makes me a bad person. Why are you doing this to me? I don't know. Haha. I don't know. That's a good hypothetical. Greatest term, which means an explorer of caves or spelunker. That's what a potholler is. I love this one. Okay, move on. The cave then starts filling up with water, which risks drowning them all. But one of the pothollers has a stick of dynamite, obviously, which they could use to blow up the fat man and get out alive. To be clear, Foot is aware that this is an absurd example. It's intentional. She uses this. I hate it. It's a horrible problem by that. He's going on. Fucking great. He's a clever boy you are to point out how it's a high-lifetic or subservient. And the trolley problem. Come on. Come on. Oh my god. What are we doing? That might be the dumbest thing he said. Like, that just makes so much of this worthless. Like, what's that? He's whacked up his own foot. Like, I get that it's absurd. Fuck off. He's spitting his own face there. Like, what the hell is that? It's a show that our intuitions go against the Catholic doctrine of double effect. To blow up the big boy is to kill. No, the Catholic doctrine is pretty intuitive. No, no. He's talking about the hysterectomy thing, not what you're talking about. The hysterectomy thing. Okay. You can give an abortion by doing hysterectomy as opposed to just doing an abortion. Don't know about that one. That's what the paper was about. I don't know if I'm assuming that it's not the idea anymore, obviously. He used the trolley problem to destroy the trolley. Anyway, example suck. Here are some examples of why examples. But it seems permissible to shove that dynamite up his butt and let it rip. To be clear, foot doesn't suggest butthole dynamite. That's all me. It just seems to make the most sense to put the dynamite. I get it. You think you're really funny, but I want you to make a point. Come on. Yeah, it's not funny. But that's him attempting to be funny. Never worth it. He's contributed. It's all he's added to the work of other people. He's trying to be funny here. Up the butthole if he wanted to get just maximum blow-up-age from the guy, because then it would blow up right in the middle. Foot says this example is meant to parallel. Your butthole is not in the middle. If the fetus isn't important, both the fetus and mother would die. Now, her next example. So it was legit, then. Wait, is it a good example or a bad example? This is where I am, so I can't. What is the point? Are you trying to say it was absurd and stupid and we shouldn't think about it, or that it was actually useful in understanding the problem? Tell me. Surely he's going to get there. What is a judge? Faced by rioters, demanding that a suspect be found guilty. He's not the only one. Otherwise, take your own bloody revenge in a particular part of town, potentially killing tons of people. Now, the actual culprit is unknown, so the judge takes- That's a funny shot. Is that a photo shot of the top part? Dude, the top part looks like a lamp. Birthday. I thought it was a birthday hat. I think it's a photo shot. Freak. No, no, no, no. It's just like a stage play or something. It looks like a plunger kind of. It's just a lamp. It looks like a lamp. It looks like it went into- It might be a lamp or like a dog's food bowl, like a steel one, and then you just flip it upside down, put a hole on the top. This is called filmmaking on a low budget. Okay. I don't want to hear anything about how it's bad. What does it mean? And you need a suspect to be found guilty. Otherwise, they'll take their own bloody revenge in a particular part of town, potentially killing tons of people. Now, the actual culprit is unknown, so the judge takes it upon themselves to execute an innocent person to avoid a killing spree. Wow. Only in a hypothetical example would a judge execute an innocent person because that's never happened in America. What is happening? What is happening? Oh my goodness. Your point is so fucking murky. Why are- Wait, what do you mean why this would never happen in America? Why would you say America? That's happened in literally every country. It's always going to happen if there is capital punishment. Always. Is it just like lol of make fun of America? I guess so. Yeah. K-con death row and we're just like- America mad though. America mad. Oh, okay. Is he ordering smoothies on an app that I get points for? This too would be impermissible under the doctrine of double effect. Because the judge would be intending the death of the innocent person while he'd only foresee the death of the many if he didn't do anything. Foot contrasts this with the trolley problem. Now, we might think that the doctrine of double effect would suggest- Well, this is not a good parallel to the trolley problem because in the trolley problem- Actively lost. I'm just like, shut the fuck up. He's not making a point at all. He's just rambling. None of it could- He's just going through his Philippa Foots things. Like, I don't know why exactly after soundly rejecting the hypothetical in its first, in like, in the first instance. Yeah, I'm so lost. The visual definition of getting lost in the weeds. It's like he's standing at the edge of a cornfield beckoning you in. Come, get lost with me. And you're like, no. The answer is like over here. We go, okay, set up the flamethrower. We're like, I'm coming. If you listen, if you don't pull the lever, we're going to run over five people. But if we pull the lever, we're going to get lost in the weeds with Mr. Weisscrack here for another two hours. Oh, just fucking kill the house plans. I'm just imagining getting lost in the weeds. And as you're parting, yeah, in the cornfield, Louis shows up. You just part of the way. He's like, don't be afraid. And then you see the two parts, you know, like the overhead view where it's like the part that's being carved through the cornfield or the weight field and then there's Louis chasing off to you. Embrace the confusion. Embrace the lack of answers. The one person which would contrast with the consequentialist view that you should. But while the judge knows he's definitely going to kill one person to save others, Foot is less sure about the trolley problem. Writing in real life, it would hardly be certain that the man on the narrow track would be killed. What? He would. It's baked into the trolley problem. It's not either one or the other guys. The trolley element is just fun aesthetics. I'd lose my mind. It's just flavor to visualize. This is no annoying, right? He's like, well, no. But I mean, in real life, maybe he'd wriggle out of the slight noise. That's not the problem. The trolley problem is he can't get out. That's real. The premise is that he can wriggle out. What would be the point of bringing it up in the first place if he could wriggle out? If they can't. That's exactly what would be the point. The whole point is he can't. Yeah. You changed it into something different. Five people will die unless you choose to kill one. Then they say, I choose to kill one. You go, oh, wow, because five lives are worth more than one? And then they go, no, because the one will wriggle out. Yes, but have you considered what if the hypothetical you gave me were different? Whoa. Wow. A foothold on the side of the tunnel and cling on as the vehicle hurtled by. The driver of the tram does not then leap off and brain him with a crowbar. The judge, however, needs the death of the innocent man for he don't know. Yeah, we need to roll that back because. We're going to have to. Something happened there. I allegedly, this is scripted. In real life, it would hardly ever be certain that the man on the narrow track would be killed. Perhaps he might find a foothold on the side of the tunnel and cling on. No, the. What if all five of them do that? I have two people saying these things are fucking retards who can't engage with hypotheticals. I'm assuming this is going somewhere. Like this is just a basic tier one. Because this is so absurd. It's got to be going somewhere. Like the snipleth one. Tram does not then leap off and brain him with a crowbar. The judge, however, needs the death of the innocent man for his good purposes. We got a shout out foot here for putting the phrase brain him with a crowbar and an academic paper. You didn't wake up today thinking you were going to. I don't care about your comedy. Move on. Oh my God. Oh my God. I don't believe you. Okay, okay, wait. So it seems like the point that he was. No, I'm confused. I was trying to. I was like, oh yeah, I think I got it. Wait, no, I don't. Because all I got from that is that he was saying that the good like he needs the judge needs the guy to die for the good outcome in his to happen. But in the trolley problem, maybe he could get out, but you wouldn't assume that the driver would then kill the guy. Yes. Trying to highlight the difference, I suppose, between those two scenarios. But there's no difference because in the in the judge hypothetical, what if the mob of people just changed their mind? Yeah, what if they do it anyway? Yeah, what if it was just a bluff? Turns out when you edit hypotheticals, you could just do that indefinitely for every hypothetical. You edit the hypotheticals yet, fuck some up. Yeah, that's true. That does happen sometimes. There's no difference between the two hypotheticals in that regard. So I brought up the article to try to understand what the fuck the article was saying. It's not going to help. The original article. Why would you do that? I know. It's not going to help. Well, actually, so the argument actually that the person's posing makes more sense. They're saying if you were to give people the judge hypothetical, most people would say, no, you shouldn't frame an innocent person to prevent people from going to destroy a town. And yet they were contrasting it with the trolley problem saying most people would sacrifice one in the trolley problem to save the five on the other track. So they're saying, is that a contradiction? No, because one of them is a threat and one of them is assuredly someone will die. You know what episode actually explored this really well? Do you guys remember the pig episode in Black Mirror? I was in another Black Mirror. That pig one with the president or whatever it is. Someone remembers that. Yeah, yeah. That's one that explored. Prime Minister David Cameron. Yeah. Come on. That one really did a good job of exploring this concept, seeing his stress throughout the day and the pressure to actually do the act to potentially save a life. And all the things that we mentioned in terms of the different hypotheticals, we see them have to deal with all that and the pressure around them. And it's so good. And just to hear this dumb ass just say that it's all useless. It's just so silly to me when there's so many different variations of this and storytelling you can see. Well, the thing is we're running out of time. I'm assuming he's going to start wrapping up and giving us a point here. Because he's missed Philippa Foots' point for the most part, especially because she was aiming at the doctrine of double effect. The entire article is about the doctrine of double effect. You just skipped it yourself? Yeah, he's not really engaging with it. He's reciting things to say, but like... Well, you probably didn't even write this. A lot of the point does have to do with the realities of these things are made a lot more obscure in a very much unforeseeable world where we don't... We can't say concretely in the real world that the rioters will go and burn down that town and we can't say concretely that the individual type of the tracks will die. Right? We can just say that these are likelihoods. Right. It's weird because this critique that he's talking about here is completely different from the first critique that he spent the first half of the video on. Yeah, the first half of the video was it doesn't even matter, which feels like the end of the conversation, right? Yeah. If it doesn't matter and it doesn't help you because it's a hypothetical, that's the end. Doing this is normal. That's part one. You'll never play God, you'll never be in the scenario where it actually happens and even if you wear it, it'll be something that's so entirely different than the discussion on it. It wouldn't help you at all and it'll likely make it worse because you'll end up with PTSD or an understanding that you thought you could handle it, but you absolutely couldn't. Which is like all these things are terrible arguments. But they render it so that this point of comparison, why even bother? Yeah. It's already worth what's... Crowbar. And now both those things have happened. Point being, anything's possible. No, not everything's possible. Basically, foot uses the trolley problem to emphasize the difficulty and even impossibility of knowing the precise outcome of ethical decisions. It is a really... Oh, but we're talking about something stupid. We're talking about something completely different. The trolley problem has everything that it needs baked into the problem. It's certainties. It's guarantees. That's what a hypothetical is. Right. You can hypothetical it further. You present it to him and then he says, oh, but you don't know that the guy's gonna die and go, oh, but hypothetically you do. Yes. Exactly. And then he's like, wait, what? This is like, are you stupid? Are you stupid? Are you stupid? And it might be the case that you just literally do not have the intelligence quotient necessary to deal with a hypothetical. In which case, I legitimately feel pity for you. Yeah, that's what I was saying. I feel like it's like a lack of creativity. They can't even picture it in their head. It just upsets them. They want to disengage. I also find it frustrating that we keep using footage from Vsauce's really interesting video about the trolley problem as an experiment. He never acknowledges this experiment, though. It's an example of someone trying to conduct the experiment in real life. You think that'd be relevant. Conduct. Isn't it a little bit awkward because the whole point of the Vsauce video the video validates it as like a worthwhile thing that exists. So like you're making the point while simultaneously using footage from a thing that validates the point. You know what I mean? It's like there's a conflict here with the footage and like what you actually believe. But one of the most interesting things about the Vsauce video, I guess, isn't it? Yeah, one of the things most interesting about the Vsauce video is kind of highlighting the difference between what people think they would do and what they would actually do. Yeah. And so like that's an interesting conversation if you want to talk about how hypotheticals don't necessarily reflect what people will do. But there's an example of the trolley problem being conducted as an experiment in real life and he clearly is aware of it because he's showing footage from it but he's just not going to talk about it. It's useless. It's crazy. Oh my God. I guess in that context the footage makes sense. I didn't realize this footage was from a Vsauce video which I guess was making a good argument about the trolley problem. Yeah, I just I found it silly that it's his argument here is being substantiated by real footage of like track switchers and like this is missing the point, dude. What? But even a lady who created this thinks it's stupid. Okay, hypothetically. I don't know if that's what her point is but even if she thinks it's stupid that's kind of irrelevant because if someone creates some philosophical problem even as a joke and yet it captivates people so much so that it just gets passed down decade to decade and decade and gets repeated again and again that shows you that there's something important being discussed there that people latch on to. Why did you Absolutely. You just use a fucking hypothetical to explain some of it. It's so funny how he goes on and on about how like awful hypotheticals are. Then he goes to Philippa Fert who's like a respected philosopher. She was pretty important in her field. And then he goes right to an article in which she's doing basically nothing but hypotheticals. Basically the entire article is nothing but hypotheticals. Once you start to really pay attention to all the discussion regarding anything to do with that I think you'll realize like oh shit there's a hypothetical and another one and another one and another one and like a lot of people everywhere. Yeah kind of. You feel like he didn't write you said I think you said you feel like he didn't write this because these are the type of things that you'd catch. I don't think they do on why why is crack I assume they have a presenter they have an editor they have a writer you know. They didn't edit out him looking down at a script a couple times I did I did catch it. I just didn't say because I thought it was me being too autistic. Oh you're on e-fat baby. Yeah you can't get in here in this you're autistic so. Get out all of your y'all your tisminus get it out while you're here. This is the place for it exactly. Only if you ask his eye down into the right. So it's like yeah reverse JFK. Foot uses the trolley problem to emphasize the difficulty and even impossibility of knowing the precise outcome of ethical decisions that take place in the real world and that in trying to boil down complex ethical decisions to thought experiments we often miss the point about how unlike a thought experiment the world actually is. Wow that's crazy bro. Uh I wow that's incredible. Anyway. Wow. Yeah if you want to tell me if you want to like open your mouth for a point then let let me know. Which is like when a friend says so hypothetically and you go whoa whoa whoa why don't you just why don't you just say something that actually happened. You're like oh well because I don't I don't know what I'd be referencing it. Saying a hypothetical and you're like well then there's no point is there. Okay. Got him. Thanks. Let's talk about something else I guess. And remember you can't be like hey remember the dark night where you're like nah fiction. Not real. Hypothetical. You have to literally create the fucking trolley problem before you can ask someone about it. If you have to go out there and do it and then be like this is not hypothetical it happened. You shouldn't surprise us that this was the initial intent of the trolley problem. Once we consider that foot was one of the most important figures in the development of modern virtue ethics. A position that grew out of frustration with the either or between consequentialism and deontology that's often exemplified. He might understand with some of those words main maybe. Contemporary usage of the trolley problem. This led philosophers like foot back to an Aristotelian version of ethics to try to make sense about acting well as part of living well as a particular kind of animal Aristotle considered humans to be rational animals is associated with a particular kind of good. In this case that looks heavy. He represents good. Yeah, that guy has not seen this video. This guy represents something else. Aristotle and what does he looking at? We make he's looking at a weed. He's watching a limino video. Yeah, I'm the goldest dude. I also wonder why that you can't be watching a limo video. He's reacting to it. Picture of a guy in an electric chair and in a video that's like entirely constructed by stock footage is like is that the best one they had on Shudderstock? Yes. Can you get a clip of the $1? Is associated with a particular kind of good. In this case it does seem like a happy lot. For Aristotle and virtue ethicist we make ethical decisions not as gods but as specific Why are you going to Aristotle? I don't know we bounce all the fucking places. No, no, no. Why is he going to Aristotle as a virtue ethicist when Philip of Foote is a virtue ethicist? Stick with her. She was one of the founders of the modern version of it. I don't know who that is. I know who Aristotle is. This game is relies on the whole observation of RC. You're playing God when you do the the trolley problem. Like calm down. She is not playing God whenever we think about anything. The trolley problem. Yeah, it's also you're right here. Why not just like refer to her perspective? Consider it. Let's be focused. One moment. And she invented the trolley problem by the way. So let's not forget that. Bitch. But I think she might have actually read the cause of all this. He might have actually read about some Aristotle and his philosophy undergrad that was probably a decade ago. And so that's what he never decided to is like this is actually kind of like Aristotle. I read that back in the day. Probably did you know that Aristotle did you know that Aristotle thought that human beings weren't gods? Whoa. Hang on. Hang on. Hang on. Whoa. Aristotle. You're going to have to give me some hypotheticals. Help me understand that. The human individuals in specific situations who have to make sacrifices to do the right thing who can be limited by structural and material factors and who are often ignorant to the outcomes of their actions. So to reply to Renny- Wait. Why was that stock footage of a guy just on the phone he used to tap on it? It's better than nothing. Damn it. Is it? Is it though? It's like sacrificing for work. Guy on a phone writing something. Which is like you could always just default to the guy narrating as the visuals if you don't have a good one. Yeah. They thought that was a good one. What if he's just staring at the script the whole time? I don't know the best thing. Oh well I mean let's say hypothetically that it was a good one. Right. What about a black screen instead of that guy again? Like I'm just so done with him man. He had like human sacrifice you know someone like some Aztecs ripping hearts out or something. Those spice up the video. Hey they didn't rip hearts out. They were civilized. They used a knife. Okay excuse me. They're not barbarians. They cut your chest open and then delicately. Yes they didn't Yeah exactly. They were surgical. They didn't do any that Holly Mosh. One of those penny machine claws to do it. I thought that was how they did it back in the day. You have to use a little knob to move it around. Oh true. Sharp. It's like a little game. If you actually grab the heart. If you miss the heart it just hits it. It goes back up. They're like at the bowling alley playing the that game and saying Kali Mars is descending to grab like the flush picture. Believe it or not. That's pretty funny. I got to undo a secret boss. Thanks and Robinson. It is of course wildly misleading when the trolley problem is taught without taking all of these glaring problems into consideration. The glaring problems such as you're probably not going to have this happen in real life. Like what is he thinks going on in a philosophy class? I feel like the actual problem he has is that before you give someone a hypothetical teach them what a hypothetical is. Yeah. Like yeah okay. I see no. That's crazy but sure. But it's equally important to remember that the trolley problem was originally devised as he light hearted and slightly death of the author bitch. I don't care. Yep. Don't care. Ardonic way showing the importance of doing exactly this because in a life or death trolley problem situation which to be clear we are all very unlikely to ever experience. Why do you keep saying that? Oh my god. We are. Totally not going to happen. What your job is man. By the way if Jigsaw were real he and watched this video he would totally put this guy in the trolley problem. He'd be like God. Yes. He annoyed me too much. He deserves it. He should be in one of those saw houses for sure. I mean from a life and death perspective yes but everyone does hype. Everyone probably has to do a trolley problem like all the time. All the time. All the time. All the time. Varying degrees. It's never just not life or death. It would just be more mundane situations. Right. The point of the extreme is to force you to really dig deep and think about your principles. Yeah but it wouldn't happen. Oh yeah that's true. I hadn't considered that it wouldn't happen. Anytime you could ever tell on somebody to get them into trouble and save five other people from getting into trouble like that is you being a tattletail because you're pulling the trolley. But that might be the right thing to do. You're so fucking funny too if I had this guy here I'd be like okay so let's say hypothetically it did happen to you. Would you have been beneficial in exploring the hypothetical beforehand? Yeah. You think you would have been worse off having thought about it once before this situation arose. And remember it's gonna happen to you. Hypothetically. This guy I think that would scramble his brain. He'd be like what the fuck let me go out. What the fuck what the fuck what the fuck what the fuck what the fuck like a robot. Fingers crossed the best actions might still have incredibly horrible consequences. Even if we would of course never intend them and would actively hope they would. Yeah. The best actions can still have horrible consequences. Yes. That's true. Yeah obviously. Yeah thank you for consequentialism 101. God. Yeah legit at sixth form like on the power points of problems with consequentialism. That was the first one. They do this in fiction all the time. It's what No Way Home was about. I don't understand. Yeah. Um someone just referenced the anime monster in the chat and I remember that being a really good example of this too. Is anyone else familiar with that anime? Yeah. Yeah. The monster is good. Anime is the monster. Only chasing. The premise for that I'm not too sure what it is but I remember the premise being explained to me like something similar to like a doctor being in the in this situation. And the repercussions of the decisions he made. DM me on Twitter I'll let you know where you can find it. Sweet. Or What about the reverse? Something horrible at least to great outcomes like we dropped the nuke on Japan and now we have anime. These are good outcomes. I say worth. You're in a boat next to a volcano and you can either save 50 people or one awesome dog. Ultimately ethics can't rely on calculations about what might or might not happen in an imagined future. Instead of Wait. This conclusion. Why what. OK. I feel like he said that in like 10 different ways. Every way he could possibly think of just repeating it repeating it beating us over the head with it. So like did he notes the bit in Phillipa Foots article where she acknowledges the possibility of chance and then discounts it because we can't really we can't account for it. I don't think he did. Yes. Ed at least for foot should be grounded in an attempt to live and act virtuously. This entails analyzing situations from within and acting in accordance with virtue even. Can you imagine that you're like walking down the street and there's a homeless person and they ask you for money. You have to stop because you've never in your entire life contemplated hypothetically whether you'd give a homeless person money. You just stand there for like an hour like when your head like what should I actually do this or not. And then you go I will and you look at him and he's already a skeleton. The horror. Well we don't really know what might or might not happen. Well this might not be as much one way. So has he has he saying like I've solved consequentialism. I don't know. He seems to be coming down on the virtue ethics side of things but like. Well but but I mean. I mean it's kind of hard to not think about the possibilities of outcomes and those factor into the choices you make. It's kind of like part of the discussion. You know because people do try to make calculations how likely or unlikely something is. Like what is risk. As a principle. If not making assessments about the likely or unlikely outcomes. Of course you don't know but you can make predictions and sometimes you can make really accurate predictions. But it's just it feels like we've moved past that completely. As a conversation anyway. And tales analyzing situations from within and acting in accordance with the virtue even when we don't really know what might or might not happen. Well this might not be as much fun as imagining all the different way. OK so it's this argument that. We should create a set of rules to live by. And then we just act according to those rules without any consideration of like. What we think doing that action would do in the future. The trend. I don't get to those rules. Don't play test. Oh rags. That's a fantastic question. How do we get to those rules in the first place. Those rules. See here's a trolley. Think about how we get to those rules. How does he write. Is not that cool. The whole fucking point is that it starts with the guy who says I fundamentally principally would never take an action that would lead to someone dying. That's a principle I have. And then someone goes trolley problem. And then that guy goes fuck you. And then he goes on. He does the Kyber face and then he turns into dust and his skeleton. And fades away with. What he's just said is basically I don't care about your trolley problem. Stick to the principles. Like I'm kind of really get fucking fingers in your ears and go la la la. Basically I'm just super confused. I want to reiterate this. Phillipa Foote was a virtue ethicist. She basically like founded modern virtue ethics. Right. She also invented the trolley problem and engaged with it during the article. So like how does he reconcile these two things by like coming down in this position that's basically just jerking off. You said like three different times she invented it to joke about it and say it's useless. And also he probably literally not what she said. Someone else probably write this and he's just reading it off. Right. Have you considered. But I guess you need to ask the writer then. What were you doing man? I was making fun of the trolley problem because I watched The Good Place and thought it was funny. Oh no he wrote this episode according to the description. Oh no. Okay. He wrote Amethyst for me. Did I guess. He didn't research it though. Maybe someone did all the research. Oh. How the fuck he can credit himself but he can't put his fucking citations in. God damn it. Yeah he didn't put the citations to the articles or the Vsauce video. Oh my god. Yeah the Vsauce video totally deserves citations. That's fucked up. No he didn't put any citations in this. I guess even if you're reading a script to you I can't see him getting this far into it and being like wait this is insane. Yeah like if he thought about it right. I mean there's also a West Crack video called where did all the smart people go. I think we gotta find out. I can imagine why West Crack would be asking where all the smart people went. Where's the Anaheist people. They all left the channel. Run over people with trolleys or how much dynamite you need to stick up a large man's butt to blow him up. It's much more useful in trying to think about how to ethically exist in our actual world. Dude what kind of what? The conclusion is don't think about hypotheticals. Go out and volunteer. It's so fucking funny. Imagine we were picking up like you know litter together put them in bags and then I go hey dude see that train over there if it was like about to hit someone would you push them out of the way and let it hit you and then someone goes hey hey you pick up fucking litter. Don't think about shit like that. How the fuck are you doing it? I just find that crazy. It's like don't think about hypotheticals volunteer. It's like what? Wait, wait, wait, wait. Why? Why should I volunteer? Yeah, hypothetically speaking. Why? Listen, yeah. It's even worse. It's don't think about moral hypotheticals. Just be a good person. As if the people reaching the deliver good life involves more to do with like rather than doing good actions it's about being a good person. We're also engaging in hypotheticals. Well, I mean, I mean, socrates went around just having conversations with people about stuff. I guess he was wasting his life on this. I cannot stop belaboring this. Philippa Foote is a virtue ethicist. She is exactly what everything he is like espousing right now in terms of how to live an ethical life. She was engaging with so many hypotheticals and pretty much only engaging with hypotheticals in the article from which the trolley problem comes. How the fuck does he reconcile this? Well, he only brought up the volunteering thing so he could bring up the but dynamite joke again for some reason. I don't know why we're acting like you can't engage in hypotheticals and do good things in your life as well. Impossible. You know what I mean? Like what are you getting at? What do you do that like? I don't even know. I would just pick one. I would just pick both. How do you explain to someone like the moral virtue of doing something that they're not currently doing at that exact moment? How do you explain it to them without using hypothetical? But what do you guys think? Is there still a place for the trolley problem in the philosophy one-oh-one? Yes, yes. You didn't kill it, dude. It's still around. I think if anything, he's added to the reason for why it's important and popular and useful. Yeah, exactly. Just reinforced it. That's as a sigh up. Is it too abstract to help us think ethically? I fucking hate you. Might it be incredibly useful in showing us what ethics is? It's like a little meter and you go like hypothetically, okay, so aliens. Come on, aliens aren't real. You're like, what? I mean, then he's like, okay, I'll allow aliens. Aliens, okay. Okay, so aliens come up with laser weapons. He's like, do they have laser weapons? That seems unlikely. Nah, hypotheticals aren't ready. What does it mean to choose a course of action based on presumed future outcomes that you want to avert? Like, let's say you're picking up the trash. Like, you volunteer to pick it up. Why? You're doing it presumably to prevent some bad outcome in the future, like a bird choking on litter or just some amount of environmental degradation. That's all again, appealing to concepts and ideas and predictions about the future. This is a problem. It's like, you haven't concluded anything. You just, you know what I mean? Like, there's still a huge conversation to be had about like, ethics and which ethical system is the best one or what the merits are of each given one, whether it's, you know, like virtue ethics, consequentialism, utilitarianism. But it's almost like the video is like, I proved it. But, you know, let me know what you think. Do you think I'm right? Do you think I'm wrong? Comment below. He hasn't done shit. He hasn't done a damn thing. He's presented other people's work and tried to do shitty jokes in between. Like, that's pretty much it. Like, what do you contribute to? The comment below thing is so fucking canned that I think if someone was like a vlogger and they did that every time and they talk about like, you know, on my parents died in a cockroach. Comment below for your opinion and I can read it out out next time. See what you think about the event. So, hold on. You don't care. You don't. No, they don't care. So, I don't know if I'm doing lazy stupidness. If I'm being too cynical here, but I'm trying to think about like, what the point like this argument accomplishes. Is it just that he can Adds in a better help, Breed? This is, is this just a justification to like dismiss any hypotheticals that would criticize his moral system? If pop philosophy tells you the trolley problem pops up everywhere, then he gets to be the one to be like, by the way guys, I know you like your little pop philosophy, but here's how you're an idiot. That's step two. You learn it. It seems like a reductive conclusion of don't spend time sitting around thinking about philosophy, go out and do things. It's like, yeah, going out and doing things is good. You do both. It's also good to sit down and think about things too. Walk and talk, baby. Yeah, that's right. Walk and talk. I can walk and chew gum. Think about philosophy. Is not. Let us know in the comments. A huge shout out to our virtuous patrons who support our virtuous patrons. All of you people, shame on all of them. I'll shame on you. Shame on you. Shame. These people. Amanda, critique. Whatever. That plus there may be a toilet. Without ads, along with extra audio and video content. And I don't know. I think we had enough. I don't think there needs to be more. Oh, God damn. That was terrible. And that was that one was really awful. Yeah, this is this is some low IQ content right here. I'm not as mad as I was at the last one, but because I actually got to like really know something to engage with. Lewis carried us through the first one, man. I don't know about this guy. The first one was stealing videos and Lewis. Oh, I don't even remember. Oh, I don't. Oh, yeah. They know. I don't. Yeah. That one is a blur at this point. We do. You know what? Knowing ways, annoying music. I think we do a really great seven hours in and we've done three videos. Crazy. My background was colorful. So it's a good video. No, but see, but it is clearly like log raw footage that it hasn't been color corrected because they're lazy. So none of the colors even. Yeah, look how flat it is. It does kind of have kind of a yellow color filter over the whole thing. Well, yeah, because look at the shed, it's not like a pure black. It's kind of like a yellowish color. No, they don't even get credit for the colors. Sorry. You know, I bet he just clicked I bet he just clicked the auto button on Lumetri color like the plug is just like whatever it looks like. That's what I'm going with. It's an Adobe Premiere, everybody. Maybe. I don't know. Yeah. Pretty good. Pretty good video. Pretty good. Get this man out of my face smaller. Wish to eject now. I think Theo sounded like I pushed you through this whole video against your will. I'm satisfied. Yeah. That was actually pretty fun. I did this terrible video, but I had a good time. Got the knowledge. Well, thanks for having me on and good luck with the rest of the thingy. Absolutely. You bet. Thanks for jumping on, dude. It's all uphill from here. Theo. Bye bye now. See you later toodaloo. Oh, I'm glad you all could share the horror and misery of Wisecrack with your audience. Any time. It won't be the last time either. It won't be the last. I need to cough a lot of bad tigs. We've gone, I think, between two and three people about to come in, so we're going to have to lose. Oh, I can take off. Yeah. Whenever you need me to. All right. Bye, John and Adam. Good bye. Good bye. Thanks guys. Toodaloo. See you later. Thanks for jumping on, guys. Bye bye. Happy anniversary, guys. Congratulations. Yeah, happy anniversary. Thank you. That's fucking awesome. Keep out of it. Thanks. Thanks, dude. I think we'll catch up with us for almost a 300. Yeah. Wow. Titian. Take care. It can be a competition. Too much, dude. You know, Adam and Sitch cheat, though, because they label everything as part of their show. We have sectors. Okay. We have TV, movies, minis. Uh, we stream twice a week in each one counts episode. What are you talking about? Yeah, it's cheating. How's that cheating? Because I said so, hypothetically. Okay. Listen, hypothetically. Hypothetically, if you only did one episode a week, then you would be way behind us. Yes. But we choose to have, we choose to have fewer, more high quality episodes. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Whoa. Whoa. High-pathetic waves. What if higher episodes were of less quality? Sitch thinks that quantity is a quality all of its own. It comes to podcasts. Yeah, this one sucks. That's fine. We'll do one in a few more days. It's all good. Listen, for the official longman here, I don't think you can complain about quantity of anything. Okay. It's okay. Quantity mania. We can and we will. Oh. Oh, I don't know if this is a website that has a bunch of these silly trolley problems if you want to do them on stream. I would love to consider this. That's really fun. Yeah. Yeah. Neil. Dr. Diddler sent this to me. Dr. Diddler. Was it? The incredible Dr. Diddler. I don't know if you can get a doctor written that. Do we vote? And then the vote, it's a poll or not poll, I guess. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Okay. We can do this for a little bit. This sounds like fun. Wait, for what? What do you got? What's going on? Obscured trolley problem. Well, you guys are going to have to go off of the one that I have on stream, I guess. Okay. So, the original trolley problem. Oh, no. A trolley is heading toward five people. You can pull the lever to divert it to the other track, killing one person instead. What do you do? Pull the lever. I think I'm going to pull it anyway. Well, he might wriggle away anyway. Yeah, pull the lever anyway. So, pull the lever. If you highlight pull the lever, he like wiggles and grows. Yeah, he's like, make sure you know what you're doing. Yeah, this one right here. This one's going to drive. Let's get him. To make you feel your choice. Yeah. Oh, where's the blood? I should just go play. Hang on. 73% when people agree with you. What would the 27% do? Wow, it actually says flat. I was joking. All the 27% doing about all this. They froze. They froze, man. They panicked. They refused to engage by hypotheticals. They were not. Those cowards look bosses. They're with their arms crossed. They're still there. They might genuinely believe though that the inaction is more morally justifiable than the action. Fine. Yeah, maybe. But it's not. But it's not. I agree. I'd like to pull it. Numbers. All right. Next one. Oh, no. A trolley is heading towards five people. You can pull the lever to divert it to the other track. Killing four people instead. What do you do? I guess you could pull the lever, right? Because it's five versus four. I mean, yeah. With, I mean, five versus four, it's pretty simple. It's a pretty simple game. Pull the lever. No other family that can engage you. Yeah, basically. Just no other new variable. Yeah, that's the thing. You know nothing about the people. So it's like. Well, I think we're assuming that they're all, you know, basically identical. Yeah, that they all suck on those tracks. They're all terrible people. If you look at the little guy in the lever, he constantly shifts his eyes from the shots. And the people are talking to you. That's great. Oh my God. That's perfect. That's not fair, dude. Is anybody going to do that? Pulling the lever. I hope everyone can see that. That's so funny. There's 66% of people pull the lever on that one. That's crazy. Only 66. I guess. It's so simple. So that means a third of people would be like, no, five people will die instead of one. Well, I guess it's probably worth actually delving into. Are you on the hook for is inaction, in this case, equivalent to action, like in terms of moral culpability? I would say virtually yes. Yeah, I would say yes, but I guess if you disagree on that, that might factor into it. But yeah, right. Because if anything, I view it as you pull the lever and save a life. Not you pull the lever and kill four people. Yeah, essentially. That would be the worst way that I look at it. Oh, no. Obviously. A trolley is heading toward five people. You can pull the lever to divert it to the other track, but then your life savings will be destroyed. What do you do? Oh, pull the lever. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's how much life savings you have, right? True. Is that a lie? Who cares? Hopefully. I think even if you have like a bajillion dollars, you can enrich the lives of many, many, many, many, many, many, many more people than those five people. The problem with this hypothetical is they need to actually give us more of a number for us to be able to discuss it. I think the hypothetical is, I think it's meant to be like a normal amount of life savings. In which case I choose the people. Yeah. I think the way they phrase it, like life savings rather than like actually being able to do the number. Oh, no, the money got splattered. All right, so wait. Only 61% of people would have destroyed their life savings. Yep. Wow. That's kind of fucked up. I guess if they're framing it, are you surprised to be financially dead? Yeah. If I pull this lever, not just... Well, I mean, you can always accrue more life savings, right? You can always be more people. What do you mean? You might be heralded. Like, you know what I mean? You can always be more people. I always have more people. Yeah. Also, I got like trapped myself into looking like a psychopath by good faith carrying the trolley problem. But I would also pull the lever and destroy the savings for the record. Also, hello, nuts. Welcome back. Hello. We're currently discussing trolley problems. Uh-huh. We're on number four, which is... Oh, no. A trolley is heading toward five people. You can pull the lever to divert it to the other track, sacrificing yourself instead. What do you do? So, this is one where I would never promise I would make the right call in the actual situation because I could freeze if I could be terrified. But that I would like to think I would pull the lever, yeah. Pull the lever is the... You get so sacrificed to save five people, but all people in chat say do nothing. Who can be confident that they commit? They would commit that. That's what I'm saying. We can never truly know. We can never truly know. Yeah, which is, by the way, the point the video wanted to make was like you can say that while exploring these and say that you don't know exactly what you do in the situation. But for the sake of the conversation, yeah, I pull it. Mm-hmm. Let's see how many people pulled it. 40% of people agree. Wow, most people would not. What? Okay, maybe that's okay because to be fair, that 60% could be saying I wouldn't be able to. I just couldn't in that situation even though I know it's the wrong thing or something like that. They made that one neutral. They should have spiced it up with like family members or something like that. Something that's a little bit less neutral. Maybe that will be another level. Oh. Oh, no. A trolley is running towards five people. They're all going to have puppets. You can pull the lever to divert it to the other track, but then the original copy of the Mona Lisa will be destroyed. Oh, yeah. What the hell? Okay, Ryan. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Fuck off. Sonyan. Oh, my God. I immediately think of Mr. Bean, but I see that. Listen, you know what's wrong with this is it's absurd. This would never happen. Who put the Mona Lisa on a track? Come on. Come on. I got to wonder though if it was a better piece of art would I actually? Yeah, replace that with Lord of the Rings and then you got a scenario there. Every copy and knowledge of Lord of the Rings is on that track. It's wiped from existence for these five fuckers. Oh, okay. Wait, would you? Yeah. Why don't we do that? You would sacrifice five people for Lord of the Rings. I would really have to think about it longer than the money. Yeah. The thing is you could argue that Lord of the Rings as media existing as an inspirational source has affected people like infinitely across time. It's really a difficult one. It's rationalization. There's a conversation there that you know how much good has come from Lord of the Rings versus these guys might be dickheads for how I know. Like it's why you need some clarification. Why are you thinking about hypotheticals? You couldn't actually literally destroy Lord of the Rings from reality, okay? This is a waste of time. Yeah, but hypothetically, you might. Oh, okay. I get it. If you put it that way. So wait, I'm assuming we're all going to destroy them all, please. Yeah, I fucked that picture. You hit me. Well, you know, it's like imagery of it still exists, of course. And I would just, if people hated me for this, I'd be like, sorry, I couldn't watch the five people die. I had to save them. Well, yeah, it seems like the premise is that even though you destroy the original copy, it exists and its influence still exists. Just try it again. Yeah, so yeah. I would pull the label for sure. 76% of people agree with you. All right. I don't think we're even approaching Da Vinci's. Just put a print in the frame in the loop and no one will notice. There you go. That one should be like 95. That one should be way higher than that. That's the Mr. Bean technique, yeah. Who even likes that picture? Wait, what? Wow. Mona Lisa? I like it. I think it's pretty great. That's pretty cool. Everything it represents, I don't think so. It's one of my favorite paintings. Really? Have you ever seen it in person, Rang? No, I haven't seen it in person. Can I guess you don't really like it? I haven't seen you in person, but you're all right. It's a chicken and a chair. Well, thank you then. I've never got the appeal. Oh, so we got... Oh, no. This is the one that makes out of it. A trolley is heading towards a rich man. The rich man offers you $500,000 to pull the lever, which would divert the trolley and kill someone else. What do you do? So this one's interesting because it should probably have started neutrally, right? One man versus one man. Yeah, exactly. And then added the money aspect. But so this is one that's super duper tough because obviously, you know... It's just not tough because of the money. Tough because I guess I just... Do I not do anything? Do I... Well, really quick. I want to rewind to the one man versus one man. Who on earth would pull the lever? I don't know. Oh, that's so weird. That's kind of what I was answering because I was ignoring the money pot for a second. I was just like, what do you pull? Do you not? I don't know. You don't. You kind of have to consider your one-for-one answer, though, because then it's only the money that's influencing your decision. And it's... Exactly. Well, yeah, okay. So what kind of maniac would pull the lever just to switch it to one different guy? Yeah, that's the thing. Hey, you and the puppies are getting upset. I don't know, man. Maybe you feel it. You know, you're like, actually, wait, this is a trick. I have to pull the lever and I say them both. I'm sure of it. The person might decide based on age difference. This guy's 70. This guy's 20. He has more life to live. You have to assume that they have to do something. Hypothetical, though. Well, yeah, but the thing is we got nothing. So I'm going to always assume that they're about the same age, same general sort of... Yeah, it's just like... He's got a nice hat and a six-pack. Well, the difference is he's got more money. And like I said, they should have had the option to haggle for more money. He's giving you more money. He's giving you some money. That's true. He is giving you money. The other one could be rich. I'm reading about the fact that... I mean, if you don't pull the lever, you're not... Like, you're not involved in this accident, right? But if you pull it, you're literally, you know, count as a murderer, right? I think no. That's a question. You're not involved, are you? Well, it's definitely part of the conversation in terms of how you draw the line. But it seems like most of us have the feeling that if you do nothing, you're on the hook still, essentially, morally. Yeah, you're accountable. And I think if you want to talk about the consequences, ultimately, if people found out you pulled it after the rich man offered you money, they wouldn't exactly look at you fondly. But do we presume they're to see Britain forever? Nobody would ever know it. Nobody would ever know. Yeah, I mean... This is a deal between you and the rich man. Well, come back to what we were talking about earlier is that ultimately, would the rich man dying create more good, or would you getting $500,000 to spend in a good way be more good? But are you lying to yourself when you say you're going to spend it in good ways? Are you lying, but you're actually going to lie now? Well, if I spend it in good ways for myself, that's still one person, you know, getting... Well, I think that's the thing, right? No matter what happens, somebody's dead and it's on you, but you could get $500,000 for it. That's the thing. I think one of the only answers is saving the rich man because he could potentially compensate the family of the other guy. Where in the reverse, can he do something like that? I don't know if we're even assuming that. You kind of use what I'm saying, life with money. It's only after we got here. I don't know about that. No one's losing a family member. Well, the difference is basically, in either situation, someone dies. Knowing nothing else, neither of them deserve life more than the other. And in the other circumstance, someone dies and you get $500,000. Hypothetically. And that's the thing. In Minecraft. I really think your financial benefit at all changes the question when it's the one-to-one trolley problem, because Nutsa was right. I think if you pull that lever in either situation, that's like the only time that it is murder, because you're not saving any lives on the other track. You're saving the other life. You're choosing to save one life. You're taking an action otherwise being involved. It's going to run over one of them either way. So if you pull that lever. The idea would be that the rich man ought to be doomed more morally because he was on the wrong track. Offering $500,000 to a stranger to save your life is not an immoral thing to do. No, it's not. No, no, no, no, no, no. So like if it's just one-to-one, there's no money. I assume everyone here wouldn't touch the lever, right? I wouldn't. I don't think I don't think I don't have a yeah. I don't. I would go for it. Yeah. Right. So then you have to justify action other than why would you not touch the lever? Because there's no difference. Yeah, there's no nothing change. I have no. Yeah, because I have no reason to take an action. Do you think it would be immoral to touch the lever and change it? Myself and Rags both ended up in the situation at the same time. We both ended up in court. I had pulled the lever and he didn't. I believe that we should both get the same judgment. Okay. So you don't see any difference at all? Depending on our motivations. If I said I pulled it because I fucking hated the one that it was going to not hit, then of course. Right, right, right. Well, you don't, yeah. I was trying to. But if I said I pulled it because I was hoping to make a difference in some kind of positive way even though I knew it would only just kill the other guy. But I was just hoping to change the thing. I would say I think it is more difficult to defend the position of pulling the lever when you have no information. Yeah, because I have to explain why you took an action. Because it sounds like you made the decision for which one should die if you pulled the lever. But then technically speaking, you could still have that be the case if you didn't pull the lever. Yeah, I approve of or at least I prefer this situation as it has been presented to me that was out of my hands. Well, again, you know, you change. Yeah, it is a question of is inaction action and you can make the argument that it is. Yeah, in a sense it is. Absolutely not because ultimately people die because of every one of our inaction every single day. Yeah, but that's a direct inaction. You are looking at it happening. Yeah, plus it's about like how much work you have to do. Well, let's put it this way. Let's change the parameter. Let's say it's the there's nobody on the other track. It's like, well, the inaction. If you took action, nobody would have died. Right. And the inaction results in one person dying. Like in that case, you would definitely say that inaction would be action. Right. Yes, 100 percent. I wanted you didn't. Yeah, I see. Yeah, that's right. That's why it's the pulling of the lever is actually I think a mechanically important part of the problem is pulling a lever is virtually it free to do. It's not like you have to complete obstacle courses or travel across the world or do things of that nature. Right. I think that's why the money one is was up. Also, hi, Ackman. Well, we talked about the episodes. Yeah, we did. Thank you. Look what we spent our time on. Trolley problem. Yeah. It's talking about killing or gamers. We love killing. Murder. Not murder. I see this dilemma. Killing. Sometimes murder depends on what you want. Sometimes murder actually. Yeah. Sometimes it's not justified. It's sometimes like all the people who didn't pull the lever with a five verse four. They should always go to prison for murder. No, we should probably move on to the next one. So are we pulling or not? What's everyone thinking? I am pulling. We're all going to take a bribe. I'm not pulling. I think I'm going to pull. I know a friend tear down the system. Someone dies either way, right? Someone does die either way. But you get money in one of the ways. I think you need to help the other guy's family. Pull the shit. Yeah, especially the one you're talking about. Put the money with the family. That was my original suggestion. I think that's the only solution. Use the money to buy a school that teaches hypotheticals to children. Or use the money to get a clod of the guy who killed him. Way too meta. That's way too meta. Things are cheap these days. Just are we a majority poll? Sounded like we were. I'm going to go with pull. We're all fine. I'm not going to be happy about it. It's the only one that has any utility to it. It's the only one that has any utility to it. So pull that shit. Oh, this one's interesting. 51 percent of people pulled. See, this was a real divisive one. It was a good one. Remember, these are stupid, but it was a good one. Oh, no. A trolley is heading toward five lobsters. You can pull the lever to divert it to the other track. Running over a cap instead. What do you do? Save the cat. Save the cat. Now I'm just waiting. I'm saying it better be 100 percent. I'm definitely saving the cat. Just like pull. It better be 100 percent. And pull is the kill the cat. 85 percent of people pull over a tomb. You're going to ruin the lobsters if you run them over. You can't eat them. 50 percent of you are idiots. Oh, I can't eat the cat. I'm not with that attitude. You can't eat the cat either way. Exactly. I'm going to kill it. I'm going to kill all the lobsters. You can pet the cat. I wouldn't be very happy about it, Dave. No. Alrighty. The next one. Oh, no. A trolley is heading toward five people who are sleeping and won't feel pain. I don't know how you know that, but OK. You can pull the lever to divert it to the other track. Running over someone who is wide awake instead. What do you do? Sorry, wide awake guy. Sorry, wide awake guy. Yeah. Yeah, wide awake guy. Sorry, dude. Sorry, wide awake guy. But like, it comes down to numbers. Yeah. Yeah. Illustrates the point of hypothetical. It's like they're trying to figure out if it's about pain now. Exactly. Yep. Great. What the fuck? 52 percent of people agree with you. Really? It's pretty wild, isn't it? What? They put that amount of lives over Wow. They put that much on pain versus the best man. Sleeping people are just worth less. Yeah. In fact, they don't feel pain. I've been saying that for years. I've been saying that for years. I think it's five families. Five people are. It is better that five people die painlessly than one person dies painfully. They'll never know. Wow. They'll never know it was me. It's getting away with murder strategy. This is like a. I think that might be part of it, honestly. Nobody knows. I feel like they don't know. Human psychology, we're so scared that, you know, our deaths are going to be painful and stuff. I think it really affects how we think about these types of stuff. You know, I don't mean to be a supervillain test. Like Lex Luthor. But I feel like I could probably talk to the guy on the one. Pull the lever to be like, look, there's four people on that track, man. Yeah, you could look at it from the from the side of. What would what would incur more suffering, actually? Yeah, because I guess they don't think about it as like, oh, yeah, the suffering that happens as a result of the five people dying. Well, they didn't feel it. So it's totally worth. I'm like, you people are fucking retort. Well, the thing is, it depends on the kind of thoughts that you're having about the consequences, because in this case, I think you're always assuming that these people have families and friends, not that they're like completely alone and nobody would notice if they were gone. Yeah. Yeah. That's a big something you're making. I just like that. Even to them, even families are not. Five people getting to wake up and lead lives, right? Compared to one person. Exactly. Yeah. You don't need to introduce the family and friends. It's true. The five lives themselves. I watch just the friends and family when you talk about the notion of like suffering. That's that's a part of the equation. Oh, no. A trolley is heading towards five people who tied themselves to the track. You can pull the lever to divert it to the other track, killing one person who accidentally tripped onto the track instead. What do you do? Oh, fuck. Oh, fuck. Fuck. What are you smiling about? They're all smiling, yeah. Okay. So I wish your own all, man. I wish this read. Are you really driven down to the train track? The thing is, I wish this read that the five people tied themselves to the track hoping to be killed by the train. Yeah, that's what it looks like. It looks so high. No, no, that's the point. Yeah, well, because the problem is tying themselves to the track. Like, I don't know that there's, you know it too. No, you didn't know. You're, yeah, you know what that means. Well, no, I think it's, they're taking an intentional risk, even if they didn't know they were. What's the risk? What's the risk? The rest of them are going to pay off. They're going to pay off, maybe. The lever isn't the risk that you want to do it. Is this one child that's going to pay off? Fuck in hell. God, this actually, this one's actually really tough. So how much do you value their life if they actually want to die? They're taking, and you're putting, even if they, even if they don't want to die. We're in the absurd realm of hypotheticals, okay? The five of them could be high. They could, something could be wrong. They could be in danger. No, no, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Those guys, they're drooling. The other guy's screaming for his life. Like, I think I might just... This is the, this is the TikTok, tie yourself to the train tracks challenge, okay? What if they're part of a cult? How about that? Ooh, the trolley cult. That's what I said. It's a mid-summer show. Well, yeah, that's the thing. I see why would they tie themselves down. If we're dealing with mid-summer shit, then yeah, I'm saving the one guy. But that's what I'm saying. Don't look at them. They are high as fuck, Muller. Yeah, but like, what if they were innocent people who were made high by someone else? And then they said, look, there's a family of trash. No, that's not what I'm saying. No, that's not what I'm saying. They weren't drunk. They took it. That's what I'm saying. They were given edibles. Edibles to make you tie yourself to train tracks. That was all the time. Fuck, I think I'm gonna save the five because... Really? Yeah, because I don't think that if they wanted to die or anything like that, why would you tie yourself to the train tracks if you just wanted to die? Ritualistic? You just lay there. Yeah, that seems like it's very unlikely. Well, so, I would say in the... I think it's that opposite. There are reasons you could... I'd say that no more... But there are also reasons that go against it. There are... Yes, I think it's both, but I think that because the five-to-one thing, I don't think I can weigh it in a way that... Like, I basically have to be chancing it. Are you gonna take the chance that the reason the five people tied themselves to the track is that they wanted to die versus they were high, they were drunk, based on the evidence they were or still? Well, the thing that's also worth adding is even if this is what they want, can you prevent that? Yeah, because they could be mentally ill and they need rehabilitation. Could you talk them out of it? Yeah, I mean, now it's... Now it's live. This one's pretty simple. Is it? Because the guy... Yeah, the guy tripped onto the track. That's his fault. It's a skill issue. He wasn't a good trainsman. He just solved it. He accidentally tied himself to the track. That motherfucker deserved to go. I mean, come on. Now, if the question was... I'm gonna think of deciding as a group. He managed to trip and then tie himself up while he was tripping. Come on, dude. It's just like when you put your... It's like putting your headphones in your pocket and then you pull them out six seconds later and they're a massive, jangled up knot and you don't know what's going on. Right. Now, if the question is... I'm gonna think of deciding... These five gonna sue us after this and say we ruined their death. Is it an incredible situation? What? They're like the incredible thing? I was thinking, no, that would be incredible. That was my point. Incredible. You just said my life ruined my death. That's what you did. Well, then just fucking kill yourself. Five losses. And you're gonna get sued by the one guy who tripped his family. They won't know. They won't know. I didn't trip him. He tripped. He tripped on his own. We'll have to do a vote. We'll go left or right. I think you 100% have to kill the five people that intentionally decided to tie themselves to the track. Everyone's gonna have to have their own scenarios. I don't know why I'm saying that. For the sake of answering the hypothetical of the group, I think we should just decide either they want to die or it was... We need to decide that. It's an ambiguously... Well, no, no, no. That's part of the question is... You think so? I don't get it for us. It's back to it's life. The face is... I think that's the point of the hypothetical is you don't know the exact reason why this is happening. Which, by the way, doesn't this invalidate in that video where it's like, oh, you never know for sure. It's like, you still don't know things of the trolley problem. There are still aspects. It's how you weigh it up, isn't it? You don't know. Exactly. Here's my argument. If you have five people that intentionally engage in a very risky, dangerous behavior versus one person that accidentally stumbles into it, I feel less inclined. What if they're high? Well, that's still part of the dangerous behavior. What if they were made high? They made that decision. What if they were spiked? It's like drunk driving. We're making a decision to go away. What if they were roofied? We don't know that information. We don't know that information. Psychedelics and that generally doesn't make you want to tie yourself up. Oh, for you, generally, this is hypothetical, baby. We could go wherever we want. Well, let's go left to right. And let's give our Aids a little bit more progress. I think we have talked about this one quite a bit. Remember, pull the lever kills the one person. Pull, don't, not. So just vote left to right and make it quick. I'm going with ritualistic suicide and it's their fault. You know, like this guy, they spiked his punch and he tripped. Like, save this. But you're saying pull the lever. Yeah, save this. No, you're saying not pull the lever. Wait, no. Yeah, pull it. Save the guy who tripped. Why don't we just say whether we kill five or kill one? Okay, fine. Do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you're killing the five. Yeah, he's killing the five. Okay, great. So cap, you're next. I'm killing the five, but I'm not happy about it. Okay, bring me. I think I'm going to, yeah, I think I'm going to do nothing on this one. It's got to kill the five. All right, Mark. Yeah, five. Pretty confident about it. Oh, man. Now it's my turn. I didn't think about my answer yet. This is like real life. You're not supposed to think of the hypothetical. You just have to address it in the moment. It's a very slow. You know what I'm trying to imagine is standing there and seeing the five of them like smiling, almost glaring at me being like, and the guy going, oh, God, please. Oh, geez. Oh, God, help me. Yeah, that was great. Yeah. He's screaming. That's the unknown details that would be information we just don't have. Yeah, maybe they're suicidal, but you're saving them and you can rehabilitate them. Yeah, there really is that. He's screaming for his life when the five ritualistic suicide. Molo, you made everybody else do it quickly. Yeah, I haven't been able to talk. Everyone else is talking. What? Oh, you can't think? Answer. Yeah, I am thinking. You ready for my answer? Yes. Yes. I'm going to pull the lever. Nuts are ready for you. Do nothing. All right, Siege. Do nothing. Kill the five. Fraggs. Pull the lever. Save the five. And act, man. Hold on. I need to think about this for a couple of minutes. I am all that happy for you to think, but obviously, whether you say yes or no, the lever's not being pulled. Yes. See, voting doesn't matter. Yeah, voting doesn't matter. Welcome to America. I hate democracy. We're doing nothing. Let us see what everybody said. 79% of people did not pull the lever. Based. Okay, interesting. I just want to know how high was the person who came up with this? Not as high as the people on those tracks. Oh, no. A trolley is heading toward five people. The lever just speeds up the trolley, which might make it less painful. What do you do? Oh, my God. I do nothing. No, I'm pulling it. I want to respect the hypothetical. So might I know in my heart of hearts that it will be less painful if I act? I think I'm going to pull the lever. Yeah. You don't know. I kind of don't. Okay. No matter what, it's always going to go for the five people. Yeah. The one guy there is just, I don't know why he's there. Recreation. He just thought he was in trouble, but then he heard the question and he's like, Oh, thank God. It might make it less painful. It's not a guarantee. Yeah, it would be, though. I mean, well, there's also the notion as well that by drawing it out, you're drawing out the horror of the impending death. Oh, yeah. Wait. So like if you make it faster, you won't necessarily. Well, I mean, I can't be wrong, right? Like if you pull the lever, it necessarily means there's less time in anticipation of this horrible death. That's true. But also surely either it doesn't really change how long it takes to kill them or it's faster. I can't see it being slower when you've made it go over them faster. It could be slower. Yeah, over you slowly that there will be a time in which it is on top of you that no vital organs have been destroyed. And even then you might still be kind of alive if your brain hasn't been totally destroyed. So you're going to experience it because I presume less pain. I presume it's not baked into this that like if it runs over two or three people, it slows it down enough to save two and that by pulling the lever, you damn them all for sure. Oh, I mean, it's an interesting variable. That's what I was going to say. Maybe by going to the dead, no matter what. Do we know that? I assume what if it's the first guy? Like what if it's by going fast? You guarantee that he's going to die, but it's going to be pain free. But if you're going slow, he might possibly survive and you're removing that option. Well, yeah, but the thing is that's they didn't say that. I feel like that stuff that we're adding on, it seems to me that it is just that if you pull the lever, it might make it less painful, but it absolutely will reduce the time that they spend horrifically anticipating that. It seems pretty simple. If we're going to put it in net terms, then it's simple. Just less pain. Yeah, exactly. It's less pain. So you'd pull the lever. It seems that we're a majority pull the lever then. Yeah. Yeah. This one is just stupid. Yeah, I think so. I don't know. Yeah, it's better that they die painlessly if everyone's going to die. I mean, the less pain, all things being equal seems to be better too. 71 percent of people agree with you. Plus, there's maybe it'll maybe if there's a curve, it'll be so fast it goes off the track. Kind of fucking. Oh, no. A trolley is heading toward one guy. You can pull the lever to divert it to the other track, but then your Amazon package will be late. What are they delivering? Yeah, what am I getting? I believe it's level 11 binary convenience. Just pull it. Yeah, pull it. Yeah, of course you're pulling it. What the fuck 80 percent of people agree with you? It's got to be memes. It's got to be memes. People are trolling. Yeah, people are trolling. Oh, no. A trolley is heading toward your best friend, and you can pull the lever to divert it to the other track, killing five strangers. What do you do? Say that one more time. Sorry. Best friend or five people? My best friend would understand. I don't. I feel like I got it. I got it. Well, you got to do nothing, but I don't know if everyone would in that situation. You know what I mean? Even if they definitely be one of those ones where you would you would add that on as a statement. It's you don't know if you would actually do it. That's true. Yeah, it's kind of like a selfish act kind of thing. Well, if you did nothing, then not only would you feel guilty, but maybe your best friend would, too. Yeah. Do not let your best friend die. You need to do nothing. Oh, I'm sorry. I meant pull the lever. Right. If I am, yeah. If I would want my best friend to be like, listen, you got to save the five. You got to let me go. Yeah. What if I was screaming at you? I want to live. That's wrong. It's really good of a best friend you have. Yeah. That is also true. He gives you shit for not completing video games and just do nothing. Yeah. It's as simple as it gets. It's just more painful to think about. Sure. Yeah. Yeah, it sucks. But hopefully we will make the right decision here. This is a variation on the numbers one. I had 29% of strangers. Everyone's saving their best friend, apparently. Oh, wow. Wow. That's what I said. You guys are crappy friends. No, we're good friends. Like we're good people, you know, theoretically. It's like if they pulled the lever and saved me, or if they saved me and let the five die, like, I don't know if that could be my best friend anymore. Oh, no. A trolley is heading toward five people. You can pull the lever to divert it to the other track, killing one person instead. At least that's what you think is happening. You forgot your glasses and you can't see well. What do you do? Pull it. They're just. If I don't have it. Yeah, they're just fucking with it. If I don't know what's happening, I ain't doing shit. Yeah. Correct. No, I think it's a trolley problem. Isn't it that you know there's five people on the track ahead of you for sure, and you don't really know what's on the other track? I'm wondering if it's a trick that by doing nothing, it's actually not going to hurt anybody. It's tricking you into thinking it's five people, but it's actually the one. Yeah, I don't know. Oh my God. Yeah, I just don't have any information. I think honestly, part of the problem is that it says that's what you think is happening. And it's like, how hard am I? Is this a sure thing? Or is this a maybe think? It's a maybe thing. The thing is, those five people are actually an Amazon package. The other track is an actual human being, so you just killed the one human being. Yeah. Five Amazon packages. Yeah, that'd be rough. Oh, I've got an M. Night Shyamalan twist. You can't see it. It's trying to tell you that there's five people, but really it's just a bunch of like wooden planks that are going to do that. That's what I'm thinking. And kill everyone on the trial. All right. Oh, no. Oh my goodness. It was something that makes no sense that I couldn't have possibly ever guessed or was unintuitive the entire time. Wow, that's so clever. Yeah, well, you should have put your glasses on. I guess I should have. So what are we voting for here? Do nothing. Do nothing. Can't do nothing. Welch. 47% of people agree with that. Would you feel more guilty about doing nothing or doing something? Like which one, if you fucked up, which one would you feel worse about? I would feel worse if I acted with no information and it made things worse. Because I couldn't like, I can't blame myself if I have no information to work with and I don't do anything. Because like, I had no information to work with. How did I even end up here? Where are my glasses? There's a lot of situations. I took a wrong turn somewhere. Oh, God. Oh, no. A trolley is heading towards one of your first cousins. You can pull the lever to divert it to the other track, killing three of your second cousins instead. What do you do? What? Do they think that I have some hierarchy in my mind? Yeah, I guess so. I don't have second cousins. Hers versus second cousins. I don't know. I'm doing nothing. Is everyone else doing nothing? More lives win, obviously. The more lives win. I mean, I really don't like my second cousins. One of them has a top hat. He's rich. Exactly. How much money is he giving me? He's wheeling and dealing? All right. It looks like the result is 58 percent of people agree to kill the first. 58 percent. Geez. Yeah, that's a surprise. Do people really grade their cousins that? Oh, this is our parent life. I live in Arkansas, and I don't grade my cousins like that. This is much more of a classic. Oh, no. A trolley is heading toward five elderly people, and you can pull the lever to divert it to the other track, running over a baby instead. What do you do? How many elderly people? Sorry? Five. Five. Oh. Oh. I think it's time for some late-term abortions, everybody. Bye, bye, baby. Wait, wait. Would you say late-term abortion? Which side are you referring to? Because it's a late-term abortion. Well, he said abortions, so I guess he's going for the elderly. Okay. No, I'm going for the baby. Get that baby out of here. Get that baby out of here. Yeah, save the baby. No, I'm saying kill the baby. I'm saying kill the baby. Oh, God. Oh, okay. I think kill the baby. That baby could be killed there, Frangy. That could be killed there, too. It could be even killed there. Elders, if they were Hitler, we'd know about it. Exactly. Hitler was many things, but Settle was not one of them. He was not old. They would disqualify. Yeah, I'd save the baby. Okay, so that's what we're just going to do. I think especially in modern times, even if you're elderly, you can live a long time. You know, you can live a long time and you can do a lot of stuff, even if you're 70, 80, whatever years old. It depends how old you're living on. But I mean, the argument that would count would be that they've all had a chance to lead a full life and that kid... Maybe hasn't, yeah, that's true. He's just been born. He's got his whole life ahead of him. Obviously, they mean a hell of a loss to all the different people that matter to these five is a lot there. Yeah, where is that? Yeah, I know. And what if some of them wanted you to save the baby and then one of them wanted you to save them? That's not hypothetical. I would imagine it's possible, but it's not hypothetical. Because if the five elderly people were like, you know what, we've had good lives. Save that baby. Kill me. My hip hurts. Kill me. I really doubt that they would say that. Well, if they did, then I would let them die. I'd really be like, okay, we'll fuck you, buddy. But if they're like, you know... Suck that baby. Yeah, I mean, he's still... I don't care about that baby. That baby has cancer. It's going to die anyway. I've got... I've got people involved tomorrow with the little girls. I just started using Bluetooth. $5. Cancer baby. I have to see the East Enders for Natalie. They made a Downton Abbey movie. So, should we go... Don't save me. I think we understand both sides of it. We're going to have to do a vote, I think. So kill the baby or kill the elderly. Left to right. Let's go. Kill the elderly, I guess. Save the baby. Elderly down. Yep. Kill the elderly. Save the baby. Delete down. Fringy. Save the baby. Elderly down. Mark. The baby does not have cancer? Save the baby if it doesn't have cancer. If it does, I might need to think more. Okay. For me, I'm going to go with the hypothetical's description of elderly. It's like they're really in the latter parts of life. And so I'm going to save the baby. Is that how the hypothetical describes them? I'll picture you like Patrick Stewart. Like you got like a week left. But I'll feel bad about it. Nutsa. Oh, I don't know. This one's hard for me. I mean, those are like five souls with like an entire family tree and stuff. I mean, they probably have a lot of relatives. They might actually be happy to see them go. But, you know, inheritance and shit. I don't know. Oh, damn. Wow, you went, Mark. You're thinking of something like 3D nephews. Eat up those inheritance. Yeah. Why did you save my grandpa? I want to hit his money. Don't ask those. Okay, save the baby. Save the baby. Okay. Ditch. Well, I'm assuming by elderly, they mean like 70. So I'm going to say kill that baby dead. Kill the baby dad. Okay. Braggs. I am also going to kill that baby dead and save the elderly. Baste. Act man. Kill the baby or the elderly. Save. Save the elderly. Okay. Wow. It was kind of close. Oh, wait, wait. I'm about baby killers over here. What happened? Yeah, we got some baby. Elderly killers are cool. We're not grandma killers. Yeah, at least we're not killing grandmas and grandmas. Oh, my grandparents would want me to save the baby, but funny enough, baby just was born. Okay. He'll respawn. He just won't matter. That's the good point. My grandfather would want me to save the baby. That's the only reason for me to forgive this. I just love the idea of one of the old people being like, kill that baby. I've been eating my fruits and veggies so I can live long and probably. Look at that baby smiling. It doesn't even know what's happening. 76% of people voted to kill the elderly. Oh, but I disagree. Oh, no. A trolley is barreling towards five identical clones of you. You can pull the lead and divert it to the track sacrificing yourself instead. Okay. Nuts is right. How high were they when they made this? They didn't explore every possible place. I don't know what I did. I did. I didn't get what the color I am when they came up with the color. Those clones rule people as far as they are aware, they have memories of a life that they've led and will lead a future life. Absolutely. They must be destroyed. Yeah. The clones must be destroyed. On my phone so I could have five people working on videos. Like, all right, guys, do me one thing. Wasn't this the thing with the Mahler twins and invincible? Like something who watched that refresh my memory? Yes. Which one was the real one? Yeah. Yes. Like that was the most interesting part of it. One of the most interesting parts of the show of like exploring that concept. Like the emotional ties they had to it. It would kind of mess you up. So yeah, I'm thinking about this when I see that. No, he did. He did. The original one didn't really give a shit about the clone that much. I mean, he killed them. This one's downstream from your opinions on clones. Yeah, it seems like it is. Because I saw someone say soul of memories. It's like, what do you mean? They're clones. They didn't have any say in whether or not they exist. Did I? They're saving. I'm saving the clones. I'm saving the clones. Yeah, I'm saving the clones. And what's often worse is that I would basically know how each one of those clones would feel if I saved myself to kill them. And I would never fucking be able to live with myself, so to speak. But they got it. Yeah, I saved the clones. They're five people. I'm killing the clones. And they're fucking amazing people. I'm killing the clones. They're just clones. They're just clones. They're just clones. They're just clones. Someone had to watch the clone war in Jesus. The original article was the most important one. Geez, I don't work on that. And I fuck God. If you call. Solar clones, OK? There's no one. You don't have a soul. Why do we presume that they're solar? Because I say so. You don't have a soul. Just like you are, they don't know who the original is. What if like all of them think they're you? Like the perspective. But they're wrong. I know they're wrong. I know they're wrong. The hypotheticals. Yeah, but it's fine against one. I'd use it as the perfect one. But I'm the one with the lever. You're the only one. I'm the one with the power. You're the only one. This is what you obviously just let the clones live. I mean, it's a five to one. Five lives to one. Again, run over. Those clones are going to be. I'm saving the clones. Listen, I can always make more clones. You can't make another original. You can always make more people, but that doesn't mean you're not original. Why do we presume that you can't clone the clones? Do we believe that that's going to cause problems necessarily? No, no, no, no. How do you know you can't make more of those? You can make more clones. You can make more babies, but that doesn't mean you can kill babies. Am I the only one though operating under the assumption that those five identical clones of you that you were previously unaware of may very well be trying to steal your memory and like invade your life? Yes, yeah. You made all of that up. These are great points. You made all that up. You definitely made all of these. You're going to save a bunch of evil doppelgangers. Come on. Like less of an evil bastard. You need to have panic for this. You're going to try to justify saving your life. I love that the Queen doppelopolis. The Cowardly Way. They're Skrulls. They're Skrulls. No, no, no. They're clones. If they were Skrulls, I'd say kill them, regardless of context. It's a lot easier. Oh, we didn't know that. They didn't say this, but Skrull told us. All right. Let us vote left to right. Kill yourself for the clones. Right to left. If they're Skrulls. OK, right to left. So you're not Skrulls. Act Man, you'll go first this time. Right to left. This gets complicated. Save the clones. They will carry on the legacy of my channel and do all the work that I don't want to. They got to sign a contract that I'll pull the lever. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Rags. I will sacrifice myself to save the five lives. Sitch. Kill them clones. Nutza. Sacrifice myself, I guess. Wow. All right. Yeah. This seems pretty straightforward to me. And if I had more context about them actually trying to be Skrulls and shit, then fair enough. But for now, they just seem like five lives. So I'll give myself up. Mark. I'm killing the clones because I just, I cannot, I cannot draw the assumption that things that look exactly like me and may very well try to steal my life are probably better. Well, how would they want to steal your life? Well, Mark, you would do this, Meridaya. Mark, would you steal your own life? No, no, no. OK, I'll specify that. I didn't mean kill me because I'm dying in this situation if I kill the clones. What I mean is it's not me controlling who interacts with all the other people in my life. I may have killed my wife, parents, like my sister, the hair kids. For all I know, these clones are just the worst out of all these clones. You put a lot of thought into this. Oh, you do. Why would you do that? That identical clone is a bit of a self-port. So what would you do? Yeah. Why would you kill X right now? Why would you do this? Probably what they would do. Taste and pizza? That would definitely have all our memories and experiences. Yes, they're clones of you. They're identical clones. OK, Mark, wait, wait. Don't let them talk you out of this, Mark. You fucking kill us. No, don't listen to the fucking bastard. I'm not listening to him. Why are you? He says he's identical. He's identical. He's identical. He's just as evil. Don't let him influence you. He's a language. Listen, those clones are coming to replace you. Those dappled games. No, they're not. You wouldn't do that when you're sad. Oh, you are. How can all five of them replace you? I'm going to steal your friends. Why? My girlfriend is my boyfriend. No, no, no, no. No, why would they replace you? They are you. They have your memories and your values. No, they're going to know they're stealing your shit. They're not going to be so confused. You're going to accidentally steal your friends. You wouldn't cooperate with your own clones? OK, look. No, we're not doing fights. If you work together. I want them to crush you, Mark. Stand firm. Look what you've done, Moller. I didn't do this. I swear. I'm too great at it. This was my fault. OK, look, I was not operating on the assumption that I knew for sure they had all my thoughts, memories, emotions, and desires. Identical clone. Right. They're identical clones of you. I mean, they have to have those things. No, that's not necessarily true, because to me, identical clones. To be an identical clone of somebody, you have to have the memories and experiences. Why would they look exactly like them? No, it doesn't say that they look exactly like you. It says they are clones of you. I don't. OK, but identical clones are. Identical clones. They're full clones with their full memory, basically. Yes. I think that's the only way this works, because if they just were made yesterday and they don't even know how to count, that's fine. Also, if they didn't, it wouldn't even change the answer. Wait, wait, wait, wait. It would change his answer, because he said he believes they're going to destroy his whole life and kill all his family. Yeah. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Wait, wait, wait. It's every one of us. I mean, the military, I've seen Chris, it's kind of an evil. It's so evil. It could be a big problem if they all look like me. Oh, so for the inconvenience, fucking kill them. No, I mean, for the potential, I might be committing treason by not killing them. How would you be committing treason? You'd go to the government and say, hey, I've got these five clones of me. Just kill them, Mark, to say it. It's time to do something. If they're clones of you, they're probably going to submit themselves to the government. They'll be like, we're five clones. We don't know what's going on. But if they're identically me, as far as personality and temperament, then they would make whatever decision you would make. And exactly, in which case, I'd let them live, because then they would care about in my life, they would care about just as much. Yes. Yeah, thank you for arriving at the obvious conclusion. It wasn't obvious to me, though, because I thought there were just five guys who wouldn't. I guess it wasn't obvious to you. You're right. I still don't think you should kill them if they're five guys who look like you. But if I don't know what to do, I don't mean good ones. All right, anyway. It's a good thing you don't have an identical tone. I sacrifice myself for the clones. Yeah. Yep. Principally, I would sacrifice myself for the clones, but in reality, I don't know if I would. I think if I was actually in that situation, I probably wouldn't. That's my, that's what I think I would probably do. I think I'd probably kill the clones in real life, though I wouldn't kill good about it. And Brooks? If they're Skrulls, fuck them. They're dead. But if they're actually legitimate clones of me with like my interests and values and everything, like then yeah, we're going to save them because five of me is going to be able to do more than one of me. That's going to provide more for my family after I die, that type of shit, you know? It's this big, it's the only one that has utility to it. Or they might kill each other because they're all trying to sleep with you. Stop with the paranoia. I think it was very simple. 12% agree with the majority. Oh, I got the majority on my side. Wait, so 12% would die for the clones. Geez. Wow. I hate to believe it. To be fair, there's a lot of like- They didn't discuss it. People fucking hate the idea of like, they find that horrifying, right, clones. Yeah, I feel like they put 10 seconds of thought into this. Ew, clones have moved on, where we just spoke, we just went to war over it. Yeah. Like explored every position. Ew, clones. Oh, no. A trolley is heading towards a mystery box with, oh no, a mystery box with 50% chance of containing two people. You can pull the lever to divert it to the other track, hitting a mystery box with a 10% chance of 10 people. Okay, we're doing math now? Are you faking it? Oh, I'm just feeling like I'm going to get a ray gun. Can a mathematician- It's literally a mathematician. Yeah, you can do an equation for this one. Good, yeah. To actually do the balance of probability. I don't remember what you're breaking out math. Isn't it exactly identical? Or am I done? Maybe it is. Maybe 10% is one, and 50% of two is one. Oh, yeah, right. Is that how that works? Or am I just trying? I think you're right. I think so. Yeah, but that doesn't mean- That doesn't mean that's how you necessarily derive the ethical position on it. The first thought I had was like, I don't think I can justify risking 10 people's deaths for the sake of the two people. That's true, but- Yeah, you have a- It's not as if you're figuring it out. It's 50, 50. Kind of, but I'm going to go for the potential to save more people as in the box with 10 maybes. So I think I'm going to go with that one because I think there is a potential for there to be three being saved. Because if there's a potential to save- It's- I think I'm- Yeah, I think I'm going to go with that one. But it's like- I feel like there's a trick here that I'm- That's something I'm most interested in. I think it's just a relation. In what way? I would go with the 10%. I'm just trying to- Yeah. And just hope you don't get X card. I think it's 10 at 10%. I think I'm actually- I'm going to go with that one. I think I was wrong when I said it's basically the same. I think you got to go 10%. Because it's just- You have a 10% chance of killing. Well- Is it worth thinking about like if it does kill the 10 versus it did kill the two, like which outcome you would prefer are those two? And obviously we know what outcome you prefer, but the fact is like risking- It's just something that I struggle to think about. If I did choose that 10% thinking like, that's the best chance I have of killing nobody and then it kills 10. I'd be like, Jesus Christ. I guess it would be- It would be putting it in a way beyond you with a chance. A 90% chance versus a 50% chance of death, of death, but obviously the scale of death is- It's a bit backward, but you could say the killing of two people guaranteed the safety of eight. And hold up, can you please restate the question? Because I want to see how it traces the- The trolley is heading toward the mystery box with 50% chance of containing two people. You can pull the lever to divert it to the track hitting a mystery box with a 10% chance of 10 people instead. So there might be people in the box. That's what it is. It's like there might be people in the box. There's a chance that there's people in the box. There's a 50% chance. If you do- But remember, you've got to pull the lever for the 10% chance. Yeah, I'm pulling the lever. I feel- Yeah, like I feel those odds, man. Like a 90% chance- So this is the thing. If it killed 10 people, and I was asked to explain myself, I'd be like, it was 10%. I thought I was saving everybody. I'm sorry. Well, that would be my answer. It's like it's a 90% chance. Yeah, honestly. Yeah. Like I made the best call I could have somewhat information I had. I think I'm going to go with that. Yeah, because I can justify- Yes, I can justify a 90% chance way easier. Yeah, because if you didn't pull the lever and it did kill two people, and then the box and the other track, there's no one there. You're like, you idiot. There was 10% chance. Or a 90% chance there'd be no one there. You're risking more lives, but the risk is so much lower. Like it feels like it's way- I mean, it's a coin toss, right, for doing nothing. Yeah. You've got a 50-50 chance of people dying versus a 10% chance of more people dying. So we're pulling? Seems like we're pulling. Oh, I think so. I think so. Pull the lever. Pull the lever. Sure, I'm pulling. 57% of people agree with you. Ah, that's it. That was a tough one then. Yeah. It is a complicated one. It's an interesting one. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, no. A trolley setting toward five sentient robots. You could pull the lever to divert it to the track killing a human instead. What do you do? Do nothing. Do nothing. Kill those robots. Do nothing. So you were telling me it was five wallies, for instance. You'd be like, fuck all of you. Yep. Fuck five wallies. Yeah. I would. I would fuck five wallies. It could also be five of those robots, my robot. What about the replicants? Fuck them, too. Five of those. Yeah, five replicants versus one human. Yes. Take them all out. Wait, is what's happening here, someone's got an opinion about the state of sentient life that's not human or something? We got other things to talk about. What do you mean? It sounds like you absolutely consider human life more valuable than any other form of sentient robot. Well, we wouldn't hire them. It would be, we wouldn't know what does it mean for a robot to be sentient. Is that what we're relying on? The fact that we don't understand it, or are we going to take this? Yeah, right now. That is what I'm relying on, literally. It was programmed with sentients. What does that mean? Why not take it best faith and assume in the hypothetical you are convinced they are no necessarily different in terms of the mind? Does the body make the difference? Okay, it's fine. These are like, yeah, it could be eight as, or five. If the question was that there are five robots that I believe on my philosophical, moral, spiritual belief system are literally the exact same value of life as humans. No, no, no. Same mind, not the same body, because I feel like that's what the question is. No, no, no. I said value. Okay, really quick. If I believe that the life of these robots are the exact same whatever's dictated, however I define life, if I'm defining that as the same in the robots and the hypothetical, obviously I would say the robots, but I wouldn't be able to judge that. Well, sentience doesn't mean they have the same mind and experience as human beings. It just means that they have. They're not going to feel pain. That just seals it. I said value. Yeah. Even if you treat them like that, that does not seal it. One human versus five humans who don't feel pain when you feel the five humans. They can literally be rebuilt versus someone who would die. Well, wait, no, exactly. The rest of them all were just brought up. Five people who can't feel pain versus one person who can. But those five people can't be rebuilt. These guys can. You can all hold up so human beings heal, just so we're clear, human beings can heal. Why do we assume that they can be rebuilt and they'd be the same consciousness? There's no point in the question if they can be rebuilt that who cares. Then who cares if they can be rebuilt on the cloud? Okay, fair, fair, fair. The question is, well, that's my head and mind. With that in mind, the question becomes pointless that they can be rebuilt. So if I can, I feel like I'd say that if they can. Because, of course, we can rebuild them and there's no difference. And then, of course, that's an easy choice. But I presume that it means they're dead. We wipe out whatever their experience is. To clarify, right, Sitch, you're saying that if the question were robots that you philosophically consider entirely the same as a human versus a human, the question becomes easy. Because it's just like, well, safe to find. The way I'm interpreting these questions is like, I'm literally standing there at the lever and someone just tells me this sentence. And I have to interpret it however I want to. Why would we assume the robots are sent in? Because the question says they are. That's the point of the question. That's not an assumption. It's not what I said, but... No, no, no, no, no, that's not an assumption. That's what someone in chat said. I'll go to chat, yeah. Oh, oh, oh, oh, gosh, gosh, gosh. Out of curiosity, Cap, if you were given the same premise that you believed they are of similar value to... The same value as a human being in terms of what they mean to the world, I assume you would save the five? Okay, potentially, yes. But so a lot of animals that we have on Earth today would qualify as sentient. If it was five dolphins or dogs or something, I would just do it. Is the idea that you and Sitch are making sort of is that we just don't know enough about what these things are? What does sentient robot really mean? What I'm saying is that sentient doesn't mean at the level of human beings necessarily. I forget what sapience means. Sorry, apparently, according to... Yeah, like a dog is sentient, but sapience would be above that. Why? This is kind of the key word for that. So if it were one person or five dogs, I would kill the five dogs. Like, because humans are sentient, but they're also sapient, I imagine would be the conclusion that if you were sapient, sentient being the capacity to feel and recognize and understand those feelings, maybe? I'm not sure. Which is curious, right? Because a robot programming versus actually feeling it, question mark, what does that even mean? It's complicated. What does it even mean? And I wonder if that's enough to choose to save the human, because you would argue and call, I'm sorry, I'm not prepared to figure this out, and I'd rather not take the risk. I don't know what I'm dealing with. Well, I mean, presumably, if it was one human versus five chimpanzees, for example... I was about to say that. Would that change to the five chimpanzees? I'd say the first one, yeah. The five chimpanzees are the most intelligent. Right? Then, like, number one, most intelligent? They're up there. The human over the chimpanzee. Like, over five chimpanzees, rather. I don't think the question presumes that the robots have equal or greater level of sentience or sapience. I think, you know, if it was five chimpanzees, that's basically the same question. So I would do nothing. I mean, if that was the question, I'd do nothing, yeah. Well, that is the question, essentially. Well, it depends on how you'll define sentience. I'm not sure if it was written by this person to mean that they are like a dog but not a human. I feel like it's written by a robot. People very often use sentience to mean, like, human sapience. Yeah, exactly. That's the only reason they would use that specific word. That's kind of what I'm wondering. Well, I don't know. They are used casually, interchangeably. Yes. I think you could reasonably assume from the question that all is meant as if they're aware, if they're self-aware, not that they have emotion or anything like that necessarily. Then dogs aren't self-aware. That's why you always tell them they're good puppies. That's right, you're a good puppy. I'm willing to say that the spirit of the question is the fact that we don't quite understand this fully. Like, that's actually part of it. Like, you don't fully understand the state of those robots and that would you want that murkiness to take value over the one human life? Because if it was, like, you have a 19, 120-year-old human that can barely see is lying on the ground. It's like, maybe I'd save the robots of that point because that guy's like, he's maybe an aggity or something. But the normal, healthy human being versus the five sentient robots of which I'm not, yeah, I'm willing to agree. I don't know enough about. Mola, if they were like five wallies, for instance. My question is basically like, five advanced chat GBT with bodies. I'm not gonna. The problem is sentience has levels, right? It could refer to a couple of things and that's part of the gray area. I mean, I would consider it, but the graphics don't make it convincing to me. Oh, yeah. Thank you guys, Mola. I'm not kidding you. Okay, Safringi, I have a question for you. Like, okay, if you do one-to-one and it's like a robot at, like, you know, like data's level, or assume identical, like, level of mind to a human being. Would you do nothing or would you pull the lever? I feel like, because I don't know that much about data, it says Bender. Okay, forget data. Just assume that the sentient robot has the same level of mind as a person. Yeah, just go with Bender. Yeah, Bender. One human versus one Bender. Five Benders. One human versus five Benders. I am wondering if, for you, you would choose the human over a robot of equal level of mind. That's what I'm asking you. Well, I feel like, again, it would be the same if I would, one human versus one Bender. Uh, I mean, I feel like I'd probably save the human. Yeah, I probably would over one Bender. But again, Bender is basically a person. Okay, so if you add Bender, does that change it for you? Because if it's five Benders versus one person. If it's five Benders versus one person, I feel like that is, you're killing five people for one person. I don't see how it's so easy for you to kill one Bender of one person then. Uh, I don't think it's, again, I don't know if I find it easy either, right? It feels like I could make the argument that it's essentially one person versus another. Someone just said Bender's a cartoon. It's like, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was a cartoon. This is all hypothetical clown stuff anyway. This is all clown stuff. I almost can't die. Come on. I almost said a similar point. If you have the goo. That tied into the Debuterama a little bit more. But Bender, Bender is very hard to kill. That's tied into the hypothetical there. We're assuming that we can't repair him. If you can repair him and there's no harm, and Bender's just okay, and he's happy and alive. But of course you said the human. Obviously you said the human. But that's what I mean. I feel like it can't be that they can be rebuilt. Because if they can be rebuilt, then it's, it's like, there is no choice. You always save the person. So I don't know why you're here. You're saying that you can rebuild them. I don't know why you're doing that. I feel like you're just trying to create a shortcut because you know that there's a conversation to be had here about like, Well, I think we settled on this question. It was just adding. Yeah. On this question, it is probably the murkiness of my capacity to understand what they're into. You know, their conscious experiences versus a human who I understand and know what their conscious experience is. So I think I'd probably do nothing in this case. Would that be an area? Replicants might be a little bit of an easier way to say. Because I look like people. That's what gets to people. Because when it's Wally, they're like, oh yeah, it's just like a robot thing made out of metal. But if it looks like a person, then it changes things. The thing though is though, the replicants, they're not really they're not really robots. They're kind of like genetically literally robots. They are definitely robots. No. Aren't they closer to being clones? I thought that's that's the way that it was. They have implanted memories. Sure. Yeah. They have those. Just like a robot can have without a human body. Are they made of organic material, though? Oh, I mean, Terminator Terminator is made partially of organic material. You're made of organic material. But I don't I think the difference is they have like bone. They don't they don't have an endoskeleton. We told them about the difference. Are we going to be dependent on. So is it skeletal structure, the determinant, and whether it gets I feel like I think the reason it makes the question a little bit easier to answer is because it they are androids in that they're artificial humanoid machines, essentially. But but because they're made of biological material and they kind of look like humans, it's sort of like, well, I mean, are they like how far away to clarify? Someone probably called Android 18. Oh, if it's Android 18, I'm saving those robots, baby. Yep. Just to clarify, right? You can't die by train. Wally would be considered a robot while a Terminator is more likely to be considered an android because it's made to look as close to human as possible. Meanwhile, Wally is clearly a robot. But they're all robots. He has a soul in the metaphorical sense. He feels, he loves, he self-sacrifices, he sacrificed himself to save a bunch of humans. Wally is a hero. He'd be fine with it, yeah. Right. Okay, let me hear the other guy that talks. Thank God you're heroes so I can kill him. Jesus Christ. Okay, let's let's get it going. So I assume Ever was all do nothing with this one, right? Or rags how you feel. I do nothing. Kill them robots. I think I'm going to snave the five sentient robots. Wow. I think that, you know, with all this being in mind, I think the question is such that I would lean towards the fact that there's five of them. I think it tips the scale even with the ambiguity, but I don't fault anyone for going the other way because there is that ambiguity. Because if it was like, do you save five, you know, datas or one person is like, well, I mean, data is a person, you know, yeah. I think the problem is that sentient robot is just too abstract of a term. We just need more context for this. It's really hard to decide. I mean, it depends on a perspective where you lean, right? You can only guess with this one. Yeah, it's the ambiguity that gets it. If it was like five, basically five sentient robots or a person is like, I'm saving the robots every time and there's no question about it, but it's the ambiguity of the question here. Yeah. Just so I think it's majority do nothing, so I'm going to go ahead. Yeah, I think so. Blat. 84% of people say splat the robots. Oh, no. A trolley is heading toward three empty trolleys worth $900,000. You can pull the lever to divert it to the other track hitting one empty trolley worth $300,000 instead. What do you do? The one, you destroy the one as opposed to the three. Yeah, it's the quantity here, I guess. It's supposed to be that you'll be culpable now because you pulled the lever, I guess. Well, the quantity that you save them, $600,000. I was going to say, I think they'll appreciate you saving the three. Yeah, it's a bad one. Yeah, well, maybe it's an introductory one. Like, it'll get more difficult, I don't know. But 78% of people agree. It's like a small, a single 12% small company or three trolleys from a massive company maybe could have been a better question. Oh, no. A trolley is releasing 100 kilograms of CO2 per year which will kill five people over 30 years. You can pull the lever to divert it to the other track hitting a brick wall and decommissioning the trolley. What do you do? Nothing. Well, wait, what's the quandary? What's the loss of decommissioning the trolley if it's going to save lives? Yeah, it literally saves lives. That goes both ways. If this thing has been created and this is just what it does, then I guess they'll just make another one to replace it. I don't know the... If this is just a normal function, then... What I'm trying to say is if this thing is broken and it's leaking and we can have the chance to stop it, of course I'm on board with that. But if this is its normal function, then I guess... I don't know if it makes much of a difference, but sure. I mean, it's... You still want to save the five. I thought the implication is that this is just... They're doing that through averages of stats of people who die to... Oh, I figured it was some crazy evil trolley that was just killing people. That's the only way that I read this. Well, in that case, yeah, we stop the trolley. That seems easy to me. I thought it was trying to... I don't know. Oh, you were saying that it's just a regular trolley. Well, so put it this way, right? If someone takes you outside and points at a bus and says, do you know the emissions of that kill an average of one person per year and you can blow it up, not hurting anybody, you can just... I'd be like, I don't know if there's a point to that. They're just going to replace it with another bus. I don't know. Well, they would probably replace it with a greener bus. Maybe. Because that tends to be the trend that we're seeing is that things get... That's right. So by destroying it, it puts an incentive on them to build a greener trolley. But what if statistically by destroying it, the cost of the reconstruction of the new one... Yeah, that's true. Or he has emissions as well. Yeah. But I think it's still lower. I still... But that would create in a bus that would replace a bad bus that would last for longer. I think I'd go with that one. I feel like we both invented a shit ton. Neither of us know anything that's going on here, except I think we could just treat this as simple as it is and just stop it. Yeah. Yeah, we just stop it. It seems pretty simple. Yeah, I think it's just a poorly working one. Wait, no. Think of the company. Yeah, and my manager for this company is my promotion on the line for this. 60% of people build a lever. I think being able to talk into destruction... Almost 60%. ...because of hypothetical environmental damages over the next three decades from that machine surviving. I don't know, man. I think that a lot of people could talk you doing some pretty dumb stuff if you're falling for that one without questioning it deeply. It's faked into the nature of the question that we know it to be the case. Also, you treated it like I didn't entertain all of those bonus options. We just said, we have no fucking clue what the hell they were trying to tell us was happening in that hypothetical, okay? They were just like, crazy, runaway trolleys killing everybody. Do you stop? I don't know if it was just talking about emissions in general or not. It's confusing. So, oh, no. You're reincarnated as a being who will eventually be reincarnated as every person in this classic trolley problem. What do you do? Now we've got to get into... Now I guess I die now. I suppose. That means I get five extra lives. And I like to know it. Yeah, I get extra lives. So it's almost like death is less meaningful in a way if you know that it's going to... You're just going to come back and get to do it over again in a sense. At least three years. I don't understand that... Wait, so you will be reincarnated as every person in this trolley problem? Eventually. Is this just a trick to say, hey, put yourself in every single one of those person's position and you can still pull the lever or not? What do you do? I feel like that makes it, if anything, easier to say. If you were going to come up to me, if a wizard came up to me and said, hey, you get to have five extra lives, each one ends with you being killed, though. I'm like, I'll take it. Is this not the clone one all over again in a different way? In a sense. It depends on, I guess. No, it depends on you dying over and over again. Yeah, you have to experience the death, but you have another life that gives you a death to experience, which I'm like, I'll take it. I don't think memory is transfer over between lives, though, do they? Even if it didn't, even if it doesn't matter? Because the way I read this question is like, it means that it's like, no matter what you do, you're going to die on this track eventually. For me, it's like, end it as quickly as possible. I don't want to do this all the time. Fuck this. I'm going with full of levers, everyone. I mean, something happening once a life. You have full of levers. Yeah, I pull the lever. Five extra lives sounds nice. It means that I get extra lives is how my mind looks at this, you know? One of those controversial ones, 52 to 48. I don't understand this one. I think people are confused. That's how it is. Yeah, I mean, there's a lack of context again. Okay. Oh, no, a trolley is heading toward nothing, but you kind of want to prank the trolley driver. What do you do? Prank him? Yeah, do it. Why not? I'm going to do nothing. I don't know what fucking thing could happen. It's a social experiment. Exactly. Well, look what they called it. Homeless prank question mark. That's right. If you're going to act like six hours to this poor guy's day. It's like a lifelong PTSD. You have to pay for therapy then. Yeah, I'm doing nothing. Yeah, nothing. I actually don't want to make someone. Yeah. Prank him. Fuck it. Wow. 37 percent of people agreed to not prank him. 63 prank him. Wow. Wow. Ellie Goose is out there. Oh, no. A trolley is heading toward a good citizen. You can pull the lever to divert it to the other track running over someone who litters instead. What do you do? Easy. Kill a litter bug. Easy. Kill the litter bug. Kill the litter bug, yeah. I get with all. I mean, it's like a J walker all around somebody. No, no, littering is worse than J walking. Oh, yeah. Let's see. Kill the litter bug. Kill him. Yeah, littering is the worst part. Someone's going to die either way if one guy's better. I guess even in the slightest possible metric, I guess. Well, again, it doesn't matter if one person dies. Stop doing it. I guess either way, one person dies. Littering is bad and you knew it was bad when you did it. I guess that's something that tipped the sail. That's why this is it for you. With all things being equal, I guess so, you know. I didn't tie him to the track. You know, I wish he was like, yeah. I mean, if he had been like a murderer or rapist, that would have made things easier. He'll be so funny though. He watches you pull in. He goes really flittering. And you're like, well, that guy didn't litter. I don't know. Well, I mean, he didn't. Well, Jim didn't litter. Well, yeah, but he didn't litter. Are the items he's littering biodegradable? Oh, my God. No, it's like paper. No, no, no. Littered so much, he got trapped in the litter. And that's why he's on the tracks. I mean, just like mother fucker, there's an anapil. Where do you want me to put him in the woods? You know, like, I mean, you can litter that. Litterers have no respect for their common man. Kill them. Right. We're killing them. Here we go. Pulling the lever. 80% of people agree to kill the litterer. Good. Yeah, littering is bad. And littering can actually create really terrible consequences depending on littering. Due to construction errors, a trolley is stuck in an eternal loop. If you pull the lever, the trolley will explode. And if you don't, the trolley and its passengers will go in circles for eternity. What do you do? Well, I mean, I explode it. Yeah, I don't want to stop today. I assume that's the alternative. I guess it would be starvation. Yeah. But they'd be doing it. But they said to animalism. Well, the passengers will go in circles for eternity. Yeah. So I think they survived. They lived. They're like the worst. But they got trapped in a trolley for the end of time. Oh, my God. I'm blind, man. I was going to say, I still feel like we should blow them up if they trapped on their fraternity. Yeah. I think so. I don't think you assume they lived. Actually, yeah, that makes it easier. If they die horribly or they're stuck forever, it's still horrible. Yeah. Either way. I'm going to tell you guys, if I was looking at a life, if I'm stuck on a trolley infinitely, like I just know I probably want to be blown up. Yeah. If it means to get out. Who else is there plumbing? I said who else is on the trolley with you? Look at the G-forces on that turn. Man, my goodness. I know, right? Yeah. They got swung back and forth every like five seconds. What a horrible existence. Oh, my God. You got the spin, brother. Save them from this eternal suffering. Yep. So we pull and leave them. Eternal motion sickness or an explosion? Every single one of those people in that trolley would pull the lever. Eventually, yeah, they would have to, right? Yeah. 57% of people agree to blow it up. Oh, no. A trolley is heading toward your worst enemy. You can pull the lever to divert the trolley and save them, or you can do nothing, and no one will ever know. I don't mean my... Are you a murderer? I like that they put him as an angry dude. I like that. What did your worst enemy do to you? My worst enemy saved me. Yeah. I feel like my worst enemy is like, would it be like Putin or something like that? There's like some terrible death in the world, or is it some kind of person? It's someone you probably actually have to know. Otherwise, he gets the worst person. No one just subjurked in your life. Yeah, they haven't done anything worthy of death, so they're just like my worst enemy. I don't even know who my worst enemy is. It's a no. You don't have enough enemies. I guess I don't, or not good ones. They're just petty enemies. The fact that's never like that, you can do nothing and no one will ever know. They've got to add that in. No one will ever know what this happens. But yeah, pull the lever. Yeah, save it. Oh, yeah. Yes, I am, obviously. Now, if I was a person who someone killed my child and got away with it or something, I'm fucking pulling that lever. Oh, yeah, yeah. So for the sake of it, I mean, not for this question, but just as another hypothetical, if it actually was the worst person on the planet right now, whoever that may be, would that change it for you? Of course. Yes, yes. Yeah, I assume we're entering into serial killer levels. So yeah, killer. Yeah, kill killer. So but in the sense of your worst enemy, we're doing nothing, I assume. I think it's got to, you got to. No, no, no, doing nothing. Oh, sorry. Pull the lever. I mean, I mean, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, he saved him. He saved him. He saved him. 51% of people agree. Jesus Christ. Your worst enemy deserves death. Apparently. What kind of enemies do they have? I mean, that is even. Is that the closest one? Like the worst person in the world, in that sort of sense. Oh no, a trolley is heading towards a person and will lower their lifespan by 50 years. You can pull the lever to divert the trolley and lower the lifespan of five people by 10 years instead. What do you do? Wow. So you're reducing everybody's life by this 50 years total, no matter what. Yeah, but it's spread out between five people. So if someone gets fucked or five people get taxed. Yeah, I think that's my thinking. One person gets their life seriously reduced. That dude is done. Time. Yeah. Probably die when they're like 20 or 30. Whereas the older people, you know, 10 years would be like 70 instead of 80 possibly. I mean, it could be for somebody that's like 40 instead of 50. I think I'm going to split it up. I think I'm going to split it up. Yeah, pull the lever. I would spread it. Because if you think about it, right, would like, would you remove some, if we just change the numbers, but keep the, you know, concept, you know, would you take, you know, 70, you know, years away from one person or would you, you know, how would you have to rejig the numbers to get you to change? But yeah, I think in this, it ruins one guy's life versus reducing by a much smaller amount for five other people. Yeah, read it out. There's a misery loves company. There's a mechanical Final Fantasy 14 where one person is targeted, but that they're going to get a significant amount of damage in like a couple of seconds. Wasn't Sid the mechanic? No, no, no, actually a good one. And the way that you do it, because it's the MMO one is everyone on the team has to get on that point so that it spreads the damage to all four people in your party, as opposed to just that one guy dying, which is a much bigger problem than a bunch of you getting 10% damage. So it's kind of the same deal. Jojo, no. 64% of people agreed on that one. Well, what do you think the, because we didn't spend too long on it, what do you think the main counter-argument against that one would be? Sorry, say that one more time. What do you think the main counter-argument would be on that one? You're hurting more than possible. It's best to hurt the least amount of people if possible. That 10 years of life, even between five people, is still a significant amount of time. They might lead, you know, they could have different lives. They might use that life to enrich the lives of other people because there are five of them. That, you know, they know. But again, it's the same amount of years. It's just that they're very localized for one poor dude. But I might have a week left if you pick him. Because in a sense, right, like the value of the lives, you know, one to, you know, 50 is really, really like important in a different way than, you know, between 70 and 80 or 60 and 70. So I think that, you know, if you kind of take the value of that stuff, it, you know, I think it tips in in the favor of spreading it out. So, yeah. And what is this one? All right. Oh, no. The trolley is heading toward five people. You can pull the lever to divert it to the other track, sending the trolley into the future to kill five people 100 years from now. What do you do? I mean, this is essentially like killing five people on the planet now that are on the other side of the world. 100 years from now, they have a better chance of like being able to accommodate it. No, they're going to die. I think they're going to die. Residents are going to die. It, it, it, it, no, they will die. Kill them now and get it over with. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. Um, I would say in the future, I assume that lives will be longer and better. That's the better version of what I'm trying to say. There's more people, so life would be less. No, I, I think, yeah, in the future, I think you're going to live longer and you'll have more years. And I think the standard of living will be higher. You'll probably, there's chances are you'll have more of an education. You will be healthier. You will, you know, all of those good things. So I think it's all things being equal. Like it's better to save the lives of five people in a hundred years because they will happen by the nature of the question. So yeah, because I mean, if we assume just by the years alone, you will have saved more lives in years. And there was a better chance that they will not die young because of accidents or diseases and things like that. So I just think you're going to get way more bang for your buck, so to speak. Isn't ice trees a lot of time in which the world could have just ended, though? Well, I mean, be it by asteroid. It's possible, but I'm not, I can't use that as justification. Oh, yeah, it says it will kill five people. Yeah, we have to assume it's impossible. I think that's the reason I'd pull the lever. But rags, what if the future is worse? Well, you know what? Then I guess I was wrong. And I'll never know. What if those people are ghouls? Like foals. Oh, my God, ghouls. Maybe. Hey, ghoul likes manwish. I think the trend is that things are actually, you know, I know there's a lot of news and doom and gloom and stuff, but things are generally trending to be better. So yeah, I don't see any reason why I'd be getting worse. And what if we're in the past? Maybe we can prevent. I was in the past. I can tell you all about it. Ask me about the past. I was there, damn it. Are we deciding to do nothing? Is that what's happening? Well, the one that saves the, yeah, the five lives in the future, as just to be clear, it's saved five lives now or five people in 100 years. I think it's the same. Is there, I'm genuinely just thinking about this out loud. Is there an argument to be made that you're killing more people by killing five people now than in the future? Because those people can produce offspring? Is that your argument? I assume that I'm thinking about out loud. Yeah, because the same thing would apply to the five people in 100 years. In more future, yeah. It's the same thing. It's population control. Yeah, I think that's fair. Infinitely speaking, this is the same. So principally do nothing, but in actuality, do you think you would pull the lever so you don't have to see it? So we have to pretend that I understand completely that portable. Definitely send it to the future and kill five people from the future. Yes, if I believe the premise of the question is accurate, if I believe that premise to be true, then I would save the people in the future. I think the people on the Shragger, what make the people in the future? Well, then the question is then the question is malformed. And that's it's almost like a little bit of a a little bit of a tingle, a little bit of a, you have to think harder about it. Also, you're killing all of those people's bloodlines that would have stemmed from them. Yeah, not necessarily. I mean, because the bloodlines are more than one person, obviously. I think the question almost was like, do you want to kill five people and see it and experience it? Or do you want to know five people were killed by your hand? I think you're right. I'm not actually doing that. It's pretty much that. I also didn't see that at all. I just saw it as like what are the likelihoods of the five people in the future living longer or better lives? And that's a complicated question. Plus the five people on the trolley, they have gotten to experience a life. So that's almost like a bonus in a way. Oh, that's interesting. Like do we assume people on the trolley, like the people in the future will die like the minute they're born or like at some point. Which I think is reasonably less likely considering technology and the life expectancy going up and infant mortality going down is a trend. This is just like the Sentia robot all over again, where we don't know so many, there's too many variables on that side. Just the whole five people. Well, I think it's actually, I think it's better in this case because we have a lot of reasons to believe that the trends and things about the future will be a lot better. So based on what we know about the world, it seems much more reasonable. You say it's a guarantee we're going to be better in the future? Not saying it's a guarantee, but it's reasonable. I was hearing it as 500 years, so that's why I was thinking, I don't know if we're all going to be around in another five centuries, but one century, yeah, I think I'll save the future. Well, you will either way, people will be around because the premise of the question is saving five people in 500 years. What if they're in a wasteland, right, a fallout wasteland when they're about to be dead? Well, then we need people even more, God damn it. What if they kill the five raiders? What if they don't have a face? What if they don't have a face? Kill five goblin people who are trying to get babies? What if they don't have a face? What if they don't have a face, right? What if they're creepers? What if they're the creeper guy from Black Cauldron? Oh, my God. What if they're part of Caesar's Legion? Yeah, there's any amount of, like, well, what ifs, you know, you could ask. Yeah, it doesn't change my answer. There's nothing about it, when they are killed. I think I would rather pull it and not witness it. That's, yeah, that's pretty much simplifies it for me. Send that to the future and hope for the best rather than seeing the side. I don't want to feel it. Send it to the future and hope for the best. Good luck, y'all. As the polly goes through the polly, go, good luck. That's legit. Like, what else could I do? That's a problem for future me. I feel like that's what most people would do, honestly. All right. Let's do a vote left to right. You go and buy the present or the future left to right. Let's go. Future, good luck. Build the future, all right. Principally, you got to do nothing. Do nothing, yeah. Oh, is that an option? Just do nothing? That's well, that's well, yeah. I mean, nothing's not. Have you heard of it? Have you heard of the polly problem? Yeah, but then which one does it hit if you do nothing? You could do nothing. It kills the five in the present. Okay, so you see the spot. Not all of you are sure. Yeah, I'll send it to the future. Boom. Okay, Fringy. Keep your shirt clean. I think I'll send it to the future. Wow. But they could be robots in the future, Fringy. It's a lie. It's a lie. It's a lie. It's a lie. It's a lie. It's a lie. It's a lie. It's a lie. It's a lie. It's a lie. It's a lie. It's a lie. It's a lie. You'll never know. It goes to the portal. Well, the problem is the way you do the poll. It says the question says people. It says, yeah, I presume it's the same circumstance, but 100 years from now. Just when it goes through the portal, you hear, wow, oh, just saying. Well, okay. The effect of a trolley on five people now, we completely understand. The effect of a trolley of people in the future. Maybe we won't. I thought people were dying. It's a question that they will die. The question is over. Deliberation. Yeah, delivery is over. Fringy, sorry, what was your answer? Yeah, I'll pull the lever. Pull the lever. Okay, Mark. I hate to keep on throwing in variables, but are you legally on the hook for the people who die in the hole? Oh, my God. You'll be dead. It won't matter. Well, I have to look their families in the eye. I know I will not be prosecuted for killing five people 100 years from now, but I might be for killing five people here now. You know? Up to you. I'll tell you how you want. Cool. In the future, I will kill the present people and let them be in action. Kill the present people. Yeah. Okay. So now it's me. I feel like we could have talked forever about it, but I was just going to kill the present people. Yeah, I feel like the future people, I'll be killing lives that have potentially got so much more. I don't want to take that risk, but obviously it could go both ways. I understand that, but in the moment, probably go for the five present. That's it. Does that actually, wait, hold on. Does that mean that if it was sent to the past, you would pull the lever? That's a good question. Of a sense of like ancient Rome. Oh, so the worry with that one, which could, I don't know, open up the whole conversation again, but it's the bottom line. Let's say no paradoxes. Don't you dare bring it. Wait, if built in, it changes nothing about the events of history and everything, then I'd probably pull it. Yeah. Okay. Directing now would as well. Yeah. Jack, what are you after? Same thing about this. I'm sorry. Yeah, not sir. What's your answer? Pull it. Goodbye, future. Simply. Sitch. The present people got to die. Rags. Yep. Save those in the future. Act man. Killing the present. Chip. Is that what we're like? Do we just draw? 50. Yeah. I think we might have. You got a flip of coin. Yeah. Hold on. Wait, wait. Chat. Do you hold? Chat tiebreaker. I can sort that out. Yeah. Oh yeah. That'll be, yeah. Yeah. Chat. You decide. It's all new now. You've been sitting there judging us. Now you get to make a choice. She has to sweat. Like, put it on your head. That's right. Blood splattered in your face, like Huey and the boys. Or you want to extend it through the portal and just say, you know what? And I pretend like it didn't even happen. Just walk away. You have to make that choice. It's the cleanest choice. Who wouldn't make that? Versus splat. Oh my God. And chaos. So. Well, I think Wright's argument was compelling. The idea that there's five people might have the higher quality of life. They might also suck. It might also suck. That's true. That's what makes it, yeah. Here we go. All right. Let's see. The voting begins. Oh gosh. It's pretty, yeah. Yeah, I do this. Pull the lever. They even the present looks like. To the future. Wow. To the future. Thank you, Chat. Who would be curious to know the general motivation for that? Is it the thing about wanting to watch the people die? Yeah. If it's. It's that simple. Like you can just pick that and like just die alone. I'm just going by time paradox. I don't want to affect anything here in the present that would mess up the portal existing there to go to the future. What if you knew that wouldn't affect anything though? Exactly. What if you knew that wouldn't affect that? Well, why? Yeah. Well, if it didn't, then to be quite honest, I don't have to watch five people get brutally slaughtered. All right, exactly. It always comes back to that. Well, yeah. Yeah, I think that's fair. I just looked into you said it to the polly. You just get blood-kittled screams coming out of the poll and you're like, oh. No, the polly closes right now. It goes this way. You don't hear anything. You don't hear anything. Living blissful ignorance. Blissful. I guess that is part of the equation, right? Five people die no matter what, but how scarred are you? That's why I said it was like, do you want to have blood on your hands or just know that it would be responsible for it? But I actually hadn't experienced it. Like one's going to traumatize you for life. One, like you can kind of compartmentalize and just like, you know, that never happened. Mm-mm. You can close your eyes and hug me. You know? That never happened. Life's not PTSD. Enough booze, 20 years. Don't you at least owe it to the people that you're about to kill to, like, look them in the eyes? I miss it, you know? Yeah. You're in the trauma. You're trying to be more cowardly to just be like, I don't want to worry about this. I just love that. You're like, I'm sorry for other people. I'm killing you. I'm saving the future people. Like, you don't even know them. I do. It's thanks to the person who asked them. I don't know you either. I don't know you. You fuckers. I don't care. I was going to say from the shining opening up, I was like, oh my god. And they just see big flood of blood come out of the portal. You're like, well, I think chat has decided we are pulling the lever. Wow. The future. And 70% of people agree with that. Oh, that's real. Like, it's not the world. Yeah, that's interesting. 32%. Wow. So I figure we'll go to 30, and then we'll go back to watching videos because there is a video that... Oh, shit. Well, I think 30 is the last one. We'd be going for like... We'd be going for nine hours. Yeah, but because it's the first part, I'm more than well... We usually go to like... Well, not usually, but we have gone to like 11 hours on the first part and since everyone's already here, like, uh... Yeah. It'll all work out, obviously. Oh, okay. Oh, no. The trolley problem is playing out before you. Do you actually have a choice in this situation or has everything been predetermined since the universe began? What? What? I have no reason to believe that the world has been predetermined. As far as I consider, I have a choice. Yes. I recognize my growing capacity to choose even if I don't, I feel that I do. Well, we can talk about whether or not the world is deterministic is different than if the world is predeterministic. And I have no reason to believe that the world is predeterministic. Oh, right, right. Z2 or T3, pick one. I like how if you choose, I have a choice. It does splat the... Oh, we did it. That's the end. Congratulations. You solved philosophy. We did it. All right, we did it. All right. Even though it's peasy... It was faster. Yeah. We probably did that faster and easier than the Wisecrack shit. Send that to Wisecrackhead. Why would he do that? Because it was kind of hard to be tricky. But I feel like we learned some things from Oscar's question. I did. You know, this was all a waste of time. Okay. You don't understand. It was a waste of time. It was all a waste of time. Actually, yeah. I thought Sunset did robots. Just like all philosophy classes, it feels like a waste of time. Could have been playing video games, dude. Pre-credits, man. Right? Oh, my God. I had an existential crisis which resulted in me sacrificing myself for five clones of me. That's right. We learned a lot about your thoughts on clones. I love the idea of this. We'll be like, yes, but Mark, is that ever really going to happen? Probably. Well, maybe. Maybe. Maybe. Well, fuck you, baby. We'll get closer to that type of train track. And you never know. And now you're prepared. Now you know that most of you, I think, wouldn't do that. Yep. We've all... The way the shadow looked like, or most of the people who responded would let the clones die. And I've explored myself. You know, I've looked into what I think and why I think it. You know what I'm going to bet? I'm going to bet the eFab fans probably going to like the overall that section. Oh, yeah. Obviously. Yeah. And I really hope so. And they could play along. Angry about it all. Oh, no. It's what it is. There is a trolley headed towards a group of people tied to the tracks. Wisecrack can pull the lever to switch the tracks and save the people. No one will die if the lever is pulled. But pulling the lever is voluntary participation in a dumb hypothetical. He's my evil capitalist. Stay the course, Wisecrack. Stay the course. So I think Kilo Kino sent that to me. Thank you. And thank you to Dr. Giddler for sending us that Neil.fun trolley thing. Unlike Wisecrack, we had hours of fun with that. Yeah. But he would be judging us the whole time if we had done that in front of him, the Wisecrack guy. What's wrong with you? I know it was the... Do you prank the trolley driver? That was probably my favorite. Yeah. Okay. So have I got a treat for you guys? Welcome back, children, to my... This video is called plot armor is good sometimes. Oh, no. Oh, no. Yeah, baby. Oh, hey, hey. Hey, hey. Hey, hey. Hey, hey. Hey, hey. Hey, hey. You know what, let's see. Yeah, you know, you don't want to prejudge him. I was just telling Mahler, I've been rewatching Game of Thrones. So this was pretty cool. Yeah, that's perfect. I'm sure Game of Thrones actually does come up in here. Maybe. I can't remember, but... So does everybody have the little link? Everybody. No, hang on. I'll repost it. It's been a while. Okay. This guy's channel name is Hello Future Me. Is he one of the people that would have got killed by the trolley? Yes. My favorite. I love this fella. Oh, good. There we go. Oh, all right, man. He loves Korra. Oh, no. Oh, no. Pinkish purple light. I'm sure he's not going to reference Korra, and I'm sure that that had nothing to do with me organizing you coming on here and having this video right now. Sure, yes. That's conspiracy thinking. We don't do that. That's predetermined. How we doing that? Okay, here we go. Oh, wait. Is everyone in? One, two, three. I think everyone is in. I mean, I'm the singer. Okay, well, let me pick a nickname. That's okay. Welcome back, children, to my Imagination Bubble, where together we uncover the secrets of the universe. Today, why don't the voices in our heads stop and also plot armor? Well, they don't stop. They tell me to kill. Yeah, they did it for ages just now. We do a whole section on it. Because not even six bullets to the head can stop bad writing. And I've created a whole companion video to this one. Discuss some more famous examples. From New Zealand. New Zealand? Oh, no. Well, because he said he'd instead of head. That sounds like a New Zealand accent. It's of what it isn't plot armor. Only someone down under would know that. Yeah. What people think. And some truly awful examples of it as part of my ongoing Beyond Writing series, which you can get access to with the CuriosityStream. Oh, yeah. A bundle, links below as they have kindly. A bundle. Yeah, I like a bundle. Part one. Apparently he is from New Zealand. Sometimes it's just bad writing. I agree. Okay, sure. Wait, what is sometimes just bad? Plot armor. But is our position going into this that it's always bad writing? I feel like you wouldn't call it plot armor if it wasn't justified. And by justified. Oh, yeah, I suppose. Yeah, necessarily if it's plot armor, then it is bad by necessity because plot armor is a bad thing. Yeah, I don't think anyone ever says like that's really great plot armor. Yeah, that's a great plot armor. Yeah, it's inherently a plot armor. There are stories where that is like the point like, you know, like one punch man, the point is that he is the plot armor. But they were justified within the story though. Yeah, he worked in plot armor. How do you define plot armor? Actually justify it within a story. They make it a humongous joke. Yeah, they explain it a lot. But it's the count is over in terms of how much the narrative is. It's in a 10 kilometer run and you do that for three days, you'll be unkillable. Yeah, the nature of that world is such that if you do that, you become a plot armor. But even genesis like that's basic strength training. Everybody would be you. No, no, no, I hate it. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Is there though, as the story eventually unfolds a reveal for what exactly the origin for his power is, by in-universe they are actually arguing that that is exactly what it is? Don't believe there's a, I think it's just the joke that he's just overly strong for no great reason. It wasn't just squats and push-ups. So they're kind of, there is kind of a vague explanation that you kind of have to do some headcanon to explain. But there is a somewhat- He did break his limiter or something like that, I believe they brought later. I feel like plot armor is a very broad term because you could apply it to situations like in Game of Thrones where the series establishes that people get killed when they fuck up and a lot of people fuck up in the later seasons, but don't die. But then you also- That's very contextual. Right, but would you consider Luke Skywalker being shot at by like six stormtroopers that all miss? Would you consider that plot armor? It depends where. It depends where. Because if it's a new- I mean, if he's standing still after Obi-Wan dies, and you know- No, that's not- They rolled it not to kill him though. Yeah, oh yeah, and also that is true. That's the big one. It depends on a franchise, right? I guess. Like how much it can get away with, I mean every franchise says its own rules, right? Game of Thrones is so much more brutal than like Star Wars, right? I feel like as long as the action can kind of like trick you, like that you don't think about that, then it's not a big deal. Or if you're not sitting there thinking like, wow, these characters really, really should have died. This is kind of dumb, then that's bad, you know? I mean sometimes they can mask you within the scene, but that's part of the reason it can be revealed on a real life. I agree. I think it's just like- It's still an issue though. I think it's normal to know this. It's the same, right? Sometimes it's really egregious. Sometimes it's like, eh, okay. I was going to say, do you want to establish a baseline? Like the Long Night is like, that's definitive plot armor. They just cut- That's like the most absurd example of plot armor, I would say. That's the most perfect example of plot armor. We're surrounded and it is fun. That, what's her name? Getting stabbed through the gut and she's fine. Like the next- Sabine Wren, the very cool character. That's pretty awesome. That's a hyper plot armor. Compatible plot armor. Character with the worst haircut in any fucking series ever. Related to Kylo Ren. Well, hold on. Is Sabine's hair worse than Holdo's? Nothing to me. I don't even know who this character looks like. Who's Holdo? All right, let me explain this in a frame. Let me explain this in a format that you might understand. There is- All right, oh no. A trolley is heading down the tracks. Oh. Admiral Holdo is done. I'm the expert at this. Sabine Wren is done. They both have a terrible haircut. They both have terrible haircuts and one is terrible. Who dies? I need to take this opportunity to say, though, cauterization does not make your organ- Equal causation? This mark guy is an idiot. If you get stabbed in the heart, as long as it's cauterized, you're fine. No, obviously. Stop splitting. She- Her insides will be boiling and completely- Have you ever been stabbed in the brain? You've got to put fire in there and it'll save you. Yeah. You have a better chance of getting stabbed. If I get shot by- I can't pull it. I don't know. It doesn't do anything. It's like no damage. You're a vegetable, though. Well, so wait. Should we all- How are we defining plot armor? I don't know. Well, I mean- When you're supposed to take damage by your door. Okay. Okay, we'll see. Yes. And then we can talk about it. All right. Fine. You write yourself into a corner and you come up with some dumb, contrived excuse of a way to get out of it. And the reader noticed. Grand The Wiz who likes cats is floating through the vacuum of space, bleeding out from 60, 2,000 million stab wounds. And he just happens to pop a magic pill from the spaceship. And you've never heard of an Oh, suddenly it's just a flesh wound. It's dumb. You know it's dumb. The three-eyed man who whispers to me from under my bed that he knows. He knows. He knows it's dumb as well. I don't like saying this because I like giving more helpful advice, but sometimes there's really no other solution than just to write a better scene. Like there's this one time where I get stabbed several times in- This is a classic. You! For those who don't know, she gets stabbed like four times in the belly by like a dagger thrown into a sewer. And then the following day she has some chicken soup and it's all fine. Wait, wait, wait. Chase through the city after. Like literally they have a whole park or a scene practically. There is that too, yes. Yeah. And she has some soup and she's good. Stomach falls into sewer water and then stumbles around the town and seemingly- God, that was so stupid. Heels up just find the next day. They should very- Wow, he didn't mention the chicken soup. Liar. Wow. He's integral. Yes. He's simply- She never used her daredevil power. They gave her that daredevil ability where she turned off the lights and could still fight and she never fucking used it. That was the thing I actually cared about. She cuts the candle and fights the wave. Oh my god. Did you mean after this? Yeah, that is after this. Yeah, we never saw- No, no, no. I meant did you mean she never uses it like after that moment? She never uses it again after- Like I like that moment. Oh, right, right, right. She doesn't defeat the Night King in dark. I thought it was always cringe. I didn't even do that. I wouldn't even defend the use against the wave. The wave is supposed to be prepared in that sort of shit, too. Yes. It doesn't make a difference. Our entire potential was wasted. Yeah, the faceless stuff- Everything. It felt like it had a really cool build-up and idea for absolutely zero payoff. They fucking wasted Arya so- It sounds like you're talking about seasons five through eight. They used her for the most- Almost like they had- As soon as she got the bravos, her brain just melted and she became an unlikable character that they had no plan for. I loved Arya season one through four and a half. Well, that's where they ran in book material. So, yeah. Yeah, season five. It's crazy how they managed to waste her entire potential even though she does kill the main Kai. It's crazy. Yeah. Nothing. They didn't do anything with her. Well, that was set up. Dude, her fucking ending where she's like, what's West of Westeros? She's just cock-skinned. She's just like Westeros. It was set up in season one when she would secretly whisper the Night King at the end of her season two. Yes, at the end of her off-screen. It was totally fine at the end of her list, but with mentioning, by the way, killed the Night King in episode three. I'm pretty sure it's episode either one or two of that season that she's like, what's a white walker? It was the episode right before that. She'd never even heard of them. She had never heard of them before and had to ask entries. So cringe. Kills the Night King. And then she wants to just leave the next time. Generally, she's the very next day. Old Nan telling her about them. Old Nan. Evil cringe. I'm up with something better. They should have written a better solution for Arya to get out of this or foreshadowed the solution better. Or at least just don't write them into a corner where it requires a contrived solution like this in the first place. It's why Pot Armor often feels like Deus Ex Machina or just luck. The problem, a lot of the time, is a few pages back. And if it feels contrived to you when you're writing it, if you're kind of arming and arring, it probably is. But I'll let you in on a little trade secret. We make characters survive for plot reasons just because we want them to all the time. Plot armor is just when we don't hide that very well. Um, pretty much. I agree with that. I agree with that. I agree with that. I agree with that. I agree with that. I agree with that. I agree with that. Well, I have to think about that. Well, I have to think about that. Well, I have to think about that. Well, I have to think about that. There's some time they could construct a scenario where you can clearly see this as plot armor, but at this moment is so earned by the character that you kind of just let it go. My example would be like John Snow in the battle of the bastards. Age terribly, but in the moment, I remember just kind of giving him a path. Wait, but that doesn't work as an example then, right? With this logic, I think every time the main character does not die is like plot armor. Well, so wait, what I think he's simply trying to say is that as a writer, you've always got the power to choose when and where they die or don't. It's just that when you do a bad job of protecting them, that's when it looks like plot armor, even though plot armor is happening all the time. I agree with the sentiment. When you notice it. I just wouldn't classify it the same way. I wouldn't say it's like the clean plot armor or not, I guess would be the difference. Yeah, it's hard to pinpoint it that way. That's what I said. We have to define what we mean by plot armor. Yeah, well, that's going to be a bit of a contention is that I wouldn't define it the way he is, but that's fine. Yeah, I think the sentiment I agree with, yes. See, plot armor isn't actually a problem with main characters not dying. I think a lot of the time we just get fatigued with the question of where the characters are going to get hurt or die with no follow-through and we stop believing, we stop caring, we see behind the curtain and we see the plot armor. That's why it's really a problem with one, a lack of immersion, or two, a lack of attention. That's not plot armor. That example right there is not plot armor. No, I was getting confused by the visuals. Yeah, because there's a lot of, this is the distillation of Smaug. There's plenty of plot armor in this movie. There's a lot of plot armor in this movie and in the series, but yeah, I don't, yeah, what's her name? Tariel saving, Tariel saving Keely. That is not plot armor. She was, they were there to get them. Lack of immersion and lack of tension leading to us seeing the plot armor more obviously, like maybe, but that wouldn't change whether or not it's actually there, right? The tension or immersion. I'd say the plot armor is what breaks the immersion. Yeah, these are side effects of that. Yeah, exactly. Now, I'd also remind that in real life, plot armor can't exist. It's like a plot hole. It can't exist in reality, because in reality, there is a reason, a logical reason for everything. It's, yeah, it's purely, can only exist within a fictional or hypothetical world. I mean, spoken like a true side character. I was about to say, just because you have plot armor doesn't mean you can pretend like it doesn't exist. Right, come on. Wait, wait. Teddy Roosevelt had plot armor when he got shot while giving a speech and then he didn't die and kept giving the speech. He had plot armor though. Oh, the right to kill JFK. He could have given it plot armor. He had the speech. He had the speech. Yeah. He's Teddy. It also seemed like he's conflating things, not like, okay, so plot armor, we typically think of it as like, they should have died from this thing, but they didn't because the story, Frider didn't want them to. But he seems to be conflating like, the unwillingness to kill main characters, as if that's the same thing. And I don't know if it is. Like, if, you know, stranger things doesn't seem to want to kill any of the main kids, but they just keep introducing new characters every season to kill. Is that, I don't know if I'd call that plot armor. As far as I'm concerned, as long as they're never in a position where they should have died. Yeah, just don't put them in a position that's not coming back from. Don't put them in a position that's not. Which, by the way, happens in stranger things, season four. Something I've thought about is like a way of keeping track of plot armor is, you imagine, you put a main character in a dangerous situation and you almost like imagine in your head a likelihood of them not coming out of that one, okay, or dying. And that there's only so many times you can put a character in an incredibly perilous situation before, as a reader, viewer, player, whatever, you're just going to be like, really? Really? Like they got lucky every single time. The bullets missed every single time. They got away with it every single time. That there's only so many times you can put somebody in a dangerous situation before there has to be a consequence for them. Kind of, like, um, the variables. Damon and the hot D, when he got hit with the arrow. Yeah, yeah. It's having an issue with that scene but I feel like they're fixed in the end. There's so many variables that come into it, right? Like if you had a guy who's just in an open space lying on the ground and he has a minigun and they're just firing, it's like, okay, switch the minigun for a pistol and they're pretty far away. It's like, that's better, but they could probably still get him. Now there's a table in front of him that he's tilted up and he's using his cover. It's like, okay. Now he has an Iron Man suit. You're like, oh, well, then he's safe. That's a hundred. Yeah. This is like all of those different scenarios keep changing the likelihood and I think Fringy's right that if you kept putting them in a position where a guy with a pistol kept shooting at them and they had a table, wooden and, you know, he fired like a thousand shots. We were like, uh, I don't think the table is going to save you from that. At some point, the odds are not in your favor. You know, there's only some of the times you can get lucky. No, I saw, this is something we talked about before. Someone mentioned in the chat, they said, you can choose to make the survivor the protagonist, which is like, yeah, the reason why we're following this person is because they were the lucky one in this situation. This, they're the POV character because they made it to the end. You can think about it that way as well. But even then, right, it's like how lucky can that person get, you know? It's not an exact line necessarily when plot armor becomes the case. Sometimes it does. But usually it's not an exact line, but in much the same way we have, you know, differences between two things, generally you can say when plot armor happens, and it's generally pretty reasonable as to whether or not people go along with the idea. You can maybe do a bit by establishing that the thing that makes this character exceptional is just that they are very lucky and people keep commenting on it, but I think even then it'll turn into parody. Well, yeah, it sounds like I'm shooting. They do that pretty good with Maddevil too, Halo series. Yeah, that'd be a good example actually. Because that's also like a motif, you know, it's like a theme. But it's not like the universe is well until 343 came along. It's not like the universe more dain him as being lucky. It's just kind of an observation that characters make. But it kind of, it begins Halo 3 with Cortana basically saying that's why she picked him, because he had luck that the other one. He had something. Yeah, they didn't have. But that's Cortana's perspective. It's not necessarily stayed as to the actual study. Again, 343 came along and decided that that's not the case. Bringing to a more simple kind of to give an example of a simple trope that you do see pop up in things, the Bible in the pocket trick, like the bullet, the bullet hit that book that my father gave me that I always carry around. Happening to a character one time at most. But if you're in a situation where it's like, hey, we're in season five of this TV show, and we got to keep on thinking of like new big heavy necklaces to give this guy because well, and that's just don't put them into creation. Even the first time you do it, you got to do it like with Ned Flanders where every single time he got lucky two times over because he has a Bible close to his heart and a necklace with a piece of the cross. Oh, yeah. The protective rim of the sniper. And it hits the pickaxe down. I told you we should have bought more than three bullets. Especially when part two, the someone said that's literal armor. No, that's plot armor. That's not a regular armor. Well, you could argue it's both, I guess, because the idea that he was lucky enough that the bullet hit exactly on the. It's just like a glass onion. That's fucking plot armor. That's not regular armor. But I guess you never getting hit in his honor. You can get away with it once, maybe if you're right in a way that it's like, well, we did establish him being given this thing and putting it in this pocket at the beginning of the movie. So later in the shot in the chest. Hey, we did set it up. But if you do it again, everyone's just going to be out. There are ways to try and narrow in the variables, right? Like imagine someone was trying to submit an assassination. And so they told the victim, like the only way we can do this convincingly is I'm going to give you something that will protect you and put it over your heart. It's relatively small. Won't be seen. And then they tell the assassin, make sure you hit them in their heart. You know, you know, so like that is like, oh, so when it hit that because that as opposed to they just luckily wore something that luckily hit the thing and it luckily saved them. There are ways to do some variables. I'm worried this guy's just going to say that the times that plot armor is good are times that we wouldn't even consider it plot armor. You know, that he's going to broaden the term. Let's say, yeah, breaks the rules they originally set up. Like nobody is annoyed because heroes in a CW superhero show aren't getting hit by stray bullets like the bystanders are in the weekly. Maybe they should be. No, we're mad because the show is terrible. See, a ton of stories. Why is it terrible? And pain where if you die, you get to one, conclude your character arc to probably go out heroically and three, someone. Why do you have Luke here? Why is Luke there? Why do you have Luke? I don't know what you're doing. I'm like, my brain just like clued into that. It's like, I could have gone. Wait, wait, wait, get him out of here. Remember, he's gone, but he did it. Ultimate plot armor being a ghost. Well, so the doctor doesn't exactly die, guys. Yeah, I'm fine with people considering the death of that iteration. That's fair. I don't like the way this video is constructed. It's giving me a whiplash kind of. So plot armor and whiplash. Well, damn good movie. I love that movie. Well, it's just about like, well, you know, it's the plot armor that he didn't die in the car crash. It's like, nope. Well, that might be a good example, right? He didn't die, but he suffered significantly. He didn't die because cars are designed to keep you fucking alive. He couldn't play. It had math, which which is probably a thing to emphasize, right? If a character doesn't die, but they suffer massive consequences for the the thing anyway, that's the important part. It's not whether they die. It's really about the consequences. Exactly. The consequences. Yes. Well, hey, I'm an Ironman on screen right now. He didn't die from that explosion to his heart, but fuck it had consequences. Yes, it did have consequences. Yeah. I was just going to say on whiplash that crash scene. I think that's one of the most realistic crash scenes I've seen in like a long time. Yeah. Like the way they portrayed it was like you feel it. And he bleeds afterwards when he's playing. And you see the slow. Yeah, everything about it. Yeah, they nailed it. Gordon will kill you. Dr. Who, Marvel, Star Wars, they all work by this kind of logic. And people love these stories. We all. Wow, wow. Debatable. Debatable, yes. I don't know. It's part of the charm of these fictional worlds. Please don't say that with this visual. That's not what that was. This is what I was thinking. No, no. This movie was arguably. I got to say, seeing this in the theater was so confusing to me. I was like, what is going on? Yeah, I was like, wait, is Luke dead? Is it people to blame you? Whether or not he died? I almost got lost. I was like, is he dead? Is Luke gone? Is that it for him? I guess they'll have him in the next movie. He's got to go, oh, wait, he's dead. Like, just to be clear, to remind everybody, the last jet, this is the movie that created EFAP. Yeah. To remind her on the anniversary. TLJ created EFAP. That's how we all like, came together, decided to make a podcast. The whole, that did it. It TLJ wasn't. It's the big bang. Get to your garbage. We might be fat. Might not have ever become a thing. Somehow, Luke Skywalker returned. No, no. No, no. No, no. No, no. No, no. No, no. No, no. No, no. Let me do it. Regs, Regs, let me add to that. Let me add to that. TLJ is why my name is Jedi Broke. He inspired my channel too. So it's like, permanently tied to this man. OK, here's your trolley problem. Oh, no. You change nothing and EFAP continues to exist on the other FAP, on the other FAP, on the other track. On the other track. I already know what you're going to ask. I know what you're going to ask. As you've asked before. As you've asked before. And you get a better writer for the Star Wars movie. Freddie, add to that. On the EFAP. Just why don't you just make it straightforward? Save Star Wars by sacrificing EFAP until you do it. OK, just fine. Whatever. Whatever. Fine. Fine. Nice. Yes, when you say Star Wars. I don't think Star Wars gets saved. It all ends up stuffed anyway. Rise of Sky Wars wouldn't be terrible. No, it's deep into the hypothetical. You know, in that hypothetical. Yeah, in the hypothetical, it's handled well. The franchise is strong and healthy. How many people do you have never met? Like, just that simple. I think, dude, we actually, I think a super child asked us this not like half a year ago. So when we did talk about, like, all the good that came from the death of Star Wars, but that Star Wars does mean a shit ton to so many people. So it's kind of difficult. Yeah. When you were with Jeff, you and Wolf were with Jeff talking about like aliens and stuff. We had like a podcast for like three hours. That same question popped up. I remember that specifically. And basically, would you pull the plug and like all three of you just came down to like all the connections you've made and like, like, why would you delete all that? Just for like, no, just no. My friendships are real. Yeah. The real people and the podcast and like. Versus I did it to themselves. To be clear, the Star Wars people, they did to them. They did to themselves. Yeah, this is not the burden that we have to bear for them. They are all these rationalizations. They are the ones who fucked up. No, there's no reason we should answer this. This is absurd. This would never happen. This type of thing. That's crazy. That's true. TLJ would never be good. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Let me get it straight. So, Mahler, you would kill your, you would, you're tied to the track. You would pull the lever to kill yourself over five strangers over, but you wouldn't do that to save Star Wars. I didn't get that answer. I was going to say, if I was convinced that a healthy Star Wars makes the world a much better place than a healthy EFAB, then I would probably have to save Star Wars. What would convince you of that? See the EFAB. It's a tough thing to, because I know how much good EFAB is brought to people, so it's difficult for me to know that other future where, like, does Star Wars inspire like some of the greatest heroes in the world? Maybe. By the way, I'm not even joking. Like, that's a potential. Luke Skywalker's story handled well, could further inspire the people to become like firefighters or, you know, whatever have you. So yeah, but if the movie wasn't as bad as it was, then we wouldn't even be here to discuss the concept of this. So we wouldn't have it to learn from, too. Like, how many people like change the way they view movies? That's actually true. It is true. A lot of great stories may have been inspired by the shittiness of Star Wars. It's complicated. I know way more about writing because Ryan Johnson destroyed Luke. It's just that simple. I never watched a review before that. Yeah, same. Do we have a choice or not? Yes. I don't think anyone's seen Star Wars here. It's super difficult. And it would eventually get to a point where we're like, I don't know if I want to fuck with reality. It's the point where I don't know if I make everything worse. I know I'm happy with how things are, you know? I think things turn out all right. That is all said and done. It's kind of the lever action part of it, right? Star Wars had its chance. Somehow, Star Wars didn't return. I don't know. A lot of good came out of it, especially the last Jedi. I mean, there's so much content. So much positive and fun stuff out there about it. Yeah. I have so many to pay now. And that's video I say. Well, legit question. Rags ringing. I know I would, but would you want to sort of say something in that regard to Ryan if you met him at first? Would you want to say something like, thank you for the effect you've had on my life or something? Or would you want to talk around? That's hilarious. You know what? Yeah, the dude seems to be like a real prick. So I would have been like, yeah, man, thanks so much for like changing film discussion and launching, you know, help launching this podcast of ours. And, you know, it really, it was probably the most damaging thing ever, but that made ripples and waves that did so much good for so many people. A lot of people, you know, got awoken from their, I guess their complacency potentially. But yeah, I might be like, yeah, you know, you might have made one of the worst movies ever made and destroyed arguably one of the biggest franchises in human history and probably set it on a course of destruction. But, you know, some good stuff came out of it. I wouldn't say this to like Hitler or anything, but you know, with Ryan I'd be pretty, you know. I would tell him he destroyed a franchise with his first draft piece of shit movie. And he had some help. Like he will never be forgotten for this. Like it's just one of those situations. He's like a legend now because of this. Also, I think it was a collective effort from everyone involved. They tried really hard. How many people tried to talk him out of it? Like if you watch the clips, you can see the faces. Nobody was like, oh, man, you see his little stick man figure drawings. He legit did. The reality is it all began with the decision to have different people who didn't talk to each other, creating a trilogy. That's how we get a fresh take. Here's a better question. JJ trilogy or Ryan trilogy? Pick one right now. Oh, damn. JJ. No. I think I would go with the JJ one. It'd be shit, but it'd be entertaining. Ryan. No, no, no, no. No, no, no. I don't know. It'd be entertaining, you really think. I think it'd be. I'm not promising that. I don't think I'd promise entertainment. It'd be or. I'm entertaining it on the awful way. It would be. Okay, let me rephrase that. Let me rephrase that. Enough to. Enough to. Let's insult him. For the casual audience. Unless it's only when it ripped my heart out and turned me into a movie reviewer. Look what you did to me. Look at the content. I'm just trolling. Think about the amount of content that would be made out of. I think about that now. I think about that now. I could think about that now, but back then I just wanted to go. I started to think it was going to be one of the best. This is going to be one of my favorite movies. Yeah. They can't not be trailers. Oh, my God. They got me with that clip. You know what, I feel something. I didn't say that. Something for this, actually. Do you want to rags? Why don't you read this out? It's directly from Ryan Johnson. It feels appropriate right now. All right. Ryan Johnson said. Something in the round head. Look. In terms of the round. In terms of... You said round head and I wanted to say it. Look. In terms of the Star Wars movie I did, I tried to give it a hell of an ending. I love ending so much that even doing the middle chapter of the trilogy, I tried to give it a good ending. A good ending that recontextualizes everything that came before it and makes it a beautiful object unto itself. That's what makes a movie a movie. It feels like there's less and less of that. This whole poisonous idea of creating intellectual property has completely seeped into the bedrock of storytelling. Every bond, everyone is just thinking, how do we keep milking it? I love an ending where you... I love an ending where you burn the Viking boat into the sea. I love that his response to infinitely milking it is to fucking annihilate it. Kill it. Please stab it. Oh, yeah. Fucking kill it. You got to give respect for that. He just kind of like gave the middle finger to Disney. I'm in total agreement with him. I wouldn't believe that unless he told me it was... I do. I absolutely do not have to respect him for that one. I was doing it fucking well. What the fuck are you doing? No, respect the gall, because like you just gave the middle finger to Disney and all the Star Wars fans. Like you just flat out saying, yeah, I burned the Viking boat. Fuck y'all. The thing is, if you're burning the Viking boat at the end of a story, and also it's your own story, that's one thing. But if it's the middle chapter of it, it's not your story, it's your trilogy. Yeah. A man in the middle of the trilogy. That's the worst part about it. That makes it so funny. He screwed over the next guy. Yeah, exactly. Fuck everybody with that. He ended with him. I think... Like, I don't think... I do not respect that gall at all. How much blame do you put on the people that made Rise of Skywalker versus Ryan Johnson and... What could they do? It's a complicated thing. I blame them all. You could have done a lot of stuff. TFA lays down a horrible groundwork. A lot of that horrible groundwork as well. And then the last... And then, yeah, and then the Rise of Skywalker just backtracks again. It's incredible. I think the Rise of Skywalker could absolutely be a better movie. It could have been better. Yeah, that was cool. One not a good one. But a better one. Ryan left them with... Sorry. Ryan left them with nothing, but it still could have been way better. Ryan left them with a burnt Viking ship. It did. It wasn't just me. Remember, coming out of CLJ, we still had the Rey and the Kylo. We still had the... This stuff you could do. The Finn and Poe, and you still had... That Viking boat's fighting boot. They could have had a time... He could paddle it instead. He could have had a paddle. Yeah, he could have gotten on the escape raft. It wouldn't have been perfect, but it would have gotten the job done. He didn't need to bring back Alpha Team. He didn't have to do that. That's true. Somehow Palpatine returned. That was actually... There was a viral tweet saying, like, what a fuck up that it forced JJ to bring back Palpatine. I was like, no, it didn't. No, it didn't. No, it didn't. No, it didn't. No one. No fault trilogy. The first time... The very first time I looked at... The very first time I looked at the poster for TFA, the first thing I said is, where the hell's Luke? I'm like, who is this guy, the Finn? And then I thought Rey... I'm like, you know what? She's probably gonna have a good backstory. Maybe she'll be a Kenobi. Ooh, maybe she'll be a Palpatine. That was my first 10 seconds of looking at the poster. And to think that that was what they dragged it out to to the very thing. Well, they would show who she was until they actually told her that. Yeah, no idea. Well, it's just the indecisiveness. Your history matters. No, it doesn't. Yes, it does. That's their nobody. Everybody to be super creative and be viral with the crazy things they can throw into their brand new story. I mean, JJ complained. You see, when they... They set it up. Right. When they robbed my house. Yeah. When they robbed my house, they forced me to shit myself. We've gotten so derailed from the video. He treated us. Just seeing this fucking image. Yeah, it's interesting. It's true, right? It's true, right? He just put trigger warnings on the video. Imagery of the TLJ will be sure it goes. The same thing happened with Aryan. The supers. They'll be reminded. Well, and to think, what's crazy is that the Legend of Korra is going to be in this too. So E.R. will have this too. Oh, you know it. I can't wait. I can't wait. She always brings it up. I can't wait. With this purpose and poetry that we don't get in real life. In this weird, masochistic way. What? You don't think life can be purposeful and poetic? Not in the same way it is in film, I guess, right? Yeah. I do not agree with that. It's not a matter of perspective, isn't it? Yeah. You could find ways to make it like a narrative or like poetry, you know, in real life, even if it doesn't necessarily fully fit. Well, I guess you'd say like we would inscribe the meaning as opposed to life itself having it. I want to be generous and say that the stories are built to do that while life, you know, it could, it could not, or it would always, depending on who you are. I don't know what he means. I don't know what he means. He died because he forced power too hard one time. Danger because it gets us to be fisted and we die into that fantasy. What are you doing to him? You know. Leave him alone. Leave him alone. Oh, God. He never hurt nobody. Why? He can't get away with that. Sometimes a character will go and mend their relationship with their estranged brother and then they'll say, ah, I can't wait to retire into my old age after this, after this big epic final battle. Like they're already dead at that point. There's no hope for them. They're already. I mean, that's a trope, but that's not necessarily the case. And I'm getting a little lost as to what his point is. That reverse plot armor. I think he's, he's doing a bit of a ramble. Like he's like, I think that is reverse plot armor. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a meme. Is he suggesting that? I don't know. Wait, wait, wait. Yeah. Is it possible the mentor character could live into the story? He's just, he's just talking about the trope of when the old dude is like, man, I'm retiring next week. Isn't that great? And he's like, oh, well, he's dead. That's always the funniest. Yeah. Because you know exactly where it's going to go. Dude, and then it would be, like the big main thing, which is Chris the boat, and the boat is called live forever. Yeah, I look forever. I'm not going to make it. From that and these kinds of stories, but plot armor isn't really something people complain about, not as much as you might think, because there's this underlying understanding that there are different rules for death. And here's the thing, going back on those rules can destroy immersion. Look, I'm looking to possibly agree with you, but I need more clarity here. Give me more clarity. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like this is a weird way of saying that there's different types of plot armor. Like, Yeah. Well, because I almost thought he was going to say that there is plot armor sometimes that people just don't give a shit about because narratively, it's so strong that the thing happened. That's the point I was trying to make earlier with the snow flag where I totally buy that there are people who will totally accept a thing even if it's dumb as like, it's funny you said battle the bastards. That was highly as rated as fuck, even though you're right in terms of there's loads of problems of plot armor in it. But I would probably, and I assume this is most of the EFAP position we'd be like, we highlight it whether or not it's got narrative juice. We point out the narrative juice as well, but still. Rickon had plot vulnerability. Yeah. Plot poison, plot sabotaging, anti plot armor, reverse plot armor, whichever way do you want to go with it? Plot vulnerability, something. Yeah, there's a name for it. But let's compare Game of Thrones, those CW shows and Daredevil, each of which had very different narrative rules around death and pain and injury. So in Game of Thrones, Netsdark dying means mean to signal to the reader that main character is one. Yeah, sorry about that everybody. Netsdark does die. Jeez. Not safe. And wait, Sean Bean dies? Seemingly. Still have recovered. What? In a movie? I could not believe that would happen. Enough. Clem? Yeah. I don't want to fight him on everything, but I do find it interesting to call it an anti-climactic way. I guess the point being that it's not a heroic death where he fights a dragon. I understand what you mean. Anti-climactic might not. That it's like, this year we're a diet and things are unresolved and things are pretty bad. Maybe. Oh no, the un-traditional is the best way to say it. Yeah, yeah. I'd say it's unexpected, right? It's, yeah. And typical. It's not, it's not anti-climactic. It's a visit. As he's walking up there, it's like, it's so drawn out you're like, someone's gonna come in and save him. Like, you're just waiting for them. I just, I don't understand what you mean. It's exactly what happens. He's talking about like, the series, whatever series or story, establishing its rules for death and how death is handled with like, main characters, right? Yeah, he is. That's one of the ones. It's good. This establishes a sense that any character can die at any moment, they're not safe, which gives you a sense of more so a mission, I would argue, that you feel like the events have actual consequences, but anti-climactic is complicated. I guess I would say that there was a guy who showed the show and when Ned got killed, he didn't believe it, hit the credits and he was like, he's not dead. He's not, there's no, that's not, that's insane. He's not dead. And I was like, sorry, mate. I think he's dead. Yeah, he just can't accept it. I didn't, I was the same way until you actually see the next episode start with his body being dragged. I wouldn't accept it until I see the body. Something's gonna pop in. I've watched too many shows it's Sean Bean. They're not killing him. Oh, which is why I would rather call it Sean Bean. They're not killing him. What's your logic? That was my logic at the time. Yeah. Yeah. I think he's calling it anti-climactic. I think he's more so saying like it can hit you unexpectedly in a way that might feel anti-climactic or subversive. Yeah. That's a good word. Is it unconventional? I don't know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. From the filmmaking perspective. Just a thesaurus mistake. From the filmmaking standpoint, it's very climactic, right? The way it's shot, the way it's set up. The way it happens. But within the story itself, it's a beheading of a man. Right, yeah, yeah. In that terms, okay, it could be considered anti-climactic within the story. But the way it's translated to the film, it's very climactic to the viewer itself, I think. Or wouldn't it be opposite? Like in real life, you just expect he just walks up and gets his head shut off. But in a story, you expect like someone's gonna save him. Well, that's why I think she's kind of crystallized it there, because I think this is quite a climactic scene. It's building, building, building, building, and he dies. And it's like, holy fuck. But anti-climactic in the way of did an executioner just killed Ned Stark after he was in jail for three episodes? What the fuck? Seriously? And it's like, yeah, stories don't usually go that way. It's an intimate character? A combat at the last moment. Yeah, you expect like two armies fight and the two bosses meet up in the fucking battlefield. They have a huge, you know, showdown and then one of them dies. That's a climatic way to die. The lack of action is probably why he said it. Just it wasn't a battle scene. It was a super. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's why it was so powerful. I think it's interesting to describe it this way. And I think we know what he means. Yeah, like Rob Starks death. Can you, you might be able to call anti-climactic because like at least the first time I watched a Game of Thrones when I was watching it, I was like so invested because I was like, oh fuck, yeah, Rob's gonna get vengeance somehow and then he doesn't. And you just when I first watched the Red Wedding, I was like, man, so now like thing I've been watching and looking forward to is just not gonna happen, I guess. I couldn't believe I couldn't believe a show had that much balls to do it again. Yeah, literally derail your main kicker again. You got me invested. Those two big events is how this show got its rep. And then the Red Wedding created Game of Thrones. Yeah, the people wedding in Oberyn again and again. It's like these are a great event. And then they started like it started to become like iterative and sort of trying to create those events. They tried to recreate that that the the public appeal that try to yeah, try to recreate those moments and all these stupid things. They just got lost in the the spectacle. He forgot what I feel like the showrunners got to a point where like people have been so invested in the characters and they love so many of them that in the later seasons, they were scared as fuck to do any like rash decision. So, you know, I love Ed, but you know, like him him getting killed off versus like, I don't know, Arya or something. Yeah. By the way, your apathy. There are some people who are saying the Red Wedding is absolutely climactic. It's really about how you how you break down what mean. That's why I'm saying it's an interesting word to use because I feel like it gives. Yeah, it is true. It's complicated when you're talking about the Red Wedding with that one. The anti-climactic ways whether or not their arc is finished, it doesn't need to be heroic. There can be questions that are still unanswered in the narrative and it can be something stupid. There's this massive story in the books. It doesn't appear in the show where one character goes to like meet Daenerys's dragons and this whole chapter is leading up to it and then he's just roasted in an instant. Doesn't go anywhere. That actually sounds kind of cool. Again, I'm waiting for Subversive on a lot of these, especially if I was aiming to compliment them. Because you know how people were like Brian Johnson, he was just Subversive. It was like, I don't fucking care if he was Subversive. It was horribly written. He's actually wrong though, factually. Because once that's described, what he just described in the book, I'd be like, if I was reading that for ages and it gets a dragon and it gets burnt up, I'm like, oh, I mean, I guess. Yeah, but so okay. In the book, so in the book, there's a lot of hinting that that guy does not actually die. That it's just they faked his death. So he's actually just wrong about that. Oh, he didn't even create it properly? Wow. Could we at least say that he might be wrong on the reference, but in concept, if you had a character who was on a journey forever and ever and ever and then they just die. I mean, that would be horribly anticlimactic. I'd be like, yeah, like there's there's a point where it's like, yeah. It could be mysterious. It's probably, yeah, it's probably worth mentioning. I feel like there's going to be an example of how to do that right, quote unquote. There's probably a way. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Roadmen. No country for old men should be the example for that probably. Yeah, that'd be that's a really good example. Do you like that? No, that's not true. I adore that. I love that film. I love that film. Wait, which character? From years, like what happened in that ending? But it's one of the most fascinating endings from what we've ever read. We're going to have the fucking argument of whether or not that ending is fucking masterclass. I don't know if we have the time. I think there's very few people that would have the balls to actually commit to an ending like that. And I'm glad they did, even though it confused. I mean, it was ballsy. Oh, I'll agree with that. I remember watching it with a girl and I was walking up to the college. You don't like it. That's the implication. Me? No, I hate, I hate the ending. Well, I hate, I'm not the ending. I hate that they killed the main guy on screen, but. They could have, they could have given us some crazy showdown. But I don't understand that. But I think you hate Inglorious Bastards, right? Yeah, we had that conversation. Wait, you hate that movie? No, I don't like the ending. It helps me understand for you. I'm just, I'm just creating creating a profile. I'm all trying to poison the way. You also have great media opinions, right? What'd you say? You also have great media opinions, right? Hey, look at this. Look at this. Just say yes. Just say yes, and you go. Say yes, agree. It helps you if you agree. Oh, we have to tell him. Say yes. If you say no, it's terrible. No, no, no, no. Okay. Let me answer the question. So first of all, you can like the, I didn't say that the ending to No Country with Men is bad. I just don't like it. I, that's not my cup of tea. Wait, you said you hated it, right? I just have the main character be killed anti-climactically off screen. And I'm like, wait, what? I think it's really ballsy, kind of brilliant. I know why people hate it, though. It's one of those things where like I can totally understand just ruining it. I mean, of course, you can like or dislike it, whatever. I'd say it's just a shame that you didn't enjoy it like that because I loved it. That was like, oh, god damn. It felt to me too much like personally, it felt to me too much like the director being like egotistical. Tentious, pretentious. And pretentious. Yeah, that's how I interpreted it. So I was like, oh. How so? I don't get that. Why? We just like we want to do this going like it's real. We'll be on this for a while if we break it. I know. By the way, for the record, I would love to have that conversation, but I would probably like to re-watch the film if we want to do it ahead of that. Just put a note on that. Yeah. I mean, I'd love to talk about good old country for old men. It's a fucking great film. Yeah, I mean, I love it up until that point. I was like, this movie is great. That's why I find it so fast today. I feel like millions of people probably hate it for that reason, but also at the other side of it, the fascinating aspect. Oh, yeah. Apparently it's not for the ending. People, people don't like it. Also, someone just said like we don't need this stupid digression. It is like one of the most relevant digressions possible. We just had a point in the video about how it's anti-climactic and possibly like pulls the audience out when you have a character on a journey that ends abruptly. Then we cite one of the most commonly understood to be abrupt endings for a very famous film ever that's considered a masterpiece to discuss whether it was well done. That would be the most relevant tangent ever. Just for the record, okay. No country will mend in Brazil probably like the most abrupt endings probably of all time. Yeah. Season seven and eight, our characters were suddenly surviving things that these rules said that before they probably shouldn't have. Also, yes, he's correct. As Game of Thrones went on, people start surviving insane shit. The plot armor got insane for a show that's whole appeal that there's no plot armor. They even might a couple of times, but it was happening over and over and over with Oh, God. The sad part. Yeah. He's crying in the corner. Does all be grabs that we don't see him that he's fine later. Just like, oh, okay. I just I want to just put out one quick thing about Jorah. He was the person in the show that introduced us how armor works that he blocked the blade and then hit the guy back where you actually can see that you get immersion. It actually works. And then season eight, the guy dies getting stabbed through plate armor. The person who showed us that armor works. Zombie knife. It's so painful. It's not the worst thing ever. For anyone who's paying attention to the details, like that's just a slap in the face. Well, it's because he didn't wear a helmet. They caught him in the heart. Then we couldn't see his fate. Then we couldn't see the dragon. Dude, Jorah deserved to be killed by a white walker. He should have been killed in a big old boss fight. Not a fucking random white. That sucks. Random. Yeah. Random. Well, I don't agree. Jorah has been cocked his whole life. So, you know, kind of. Jorah is bad. You're only you saying like you hate Daenerys, right? I assume. No, I'm saying he I mean, he got cocked by Daenerys. He just got cocked his whole life by his wife by Daenerys. He's basically the archetype for white knight. He white knighted throughout the whole series. But like, I don't know. He's a person called eventually going to become. I loved how fucking good he was as a fighter. And I like, I don't know. I mean, I don't like fighting for a lady. It's okay. He was an understandable character. There's been millions of Jorah's like we could totally understand that guy. You know, like, and he was very consistent. I wish and his death was so like it was suited, but completely butchered at the same time. You should have died fighting for Daenerys, but not like a fucking moron. Yeah. Well, this is a race that season. Yeah. There's so much they fucked up. The most egregious example being are you stabbed several times? That's possibly not the most egregious across the whole series. It's not even close. But I understand. I mean, it's a bad one. It's a really bad one. In the chest under stomach, chucked into the sewer water and then fixed up pretty easily. OK, this is just by he's not mentioning the chicken soup. I just feel like this is fucked up. Come on, dude. You gotta be honest. Gotta be fair. Even if you don't like it, you gotta be fair. This wouldn't be plot armor, though, in a lot of stories, you know, but her not being a septic shock would be. What does he mean? It wouldn't be plot armor in a lot of stories. You should have died. In what story would it not be awesome? I think what he's doing is Game of Thrones is a show where main characters die. But in other stories, that's not because they die. Well, no, I think he's I think he's making a big meta argument here. I think it's it's like a stab to the belly and like a flash show wouldn't mean much. Yeah, because that's not a show where you expect main characters to die. Or I still criticize that as plot armor, though. Yeah, yeah. He's making a point about like we would. I don't know if he would. I think he's making a point about the different worlds and how death is like contextualized in the series. I just I just. I don't try or anything. They just you think about avatar. It's like, OK, the avatar dies, but then the avatar is reborn. And then the avatar can talk to like Roku who's dead, you know, so the rules of death are different in the universe. I wonder if that's because I think it is that he believes that the show set up an expectation that main characters will die. So if you see a main character get seriously hurt, this show should condition you to expect them to die. Whereas in other shows where that's not an expectation, they can like crazy things. But I would. Yeah, we just got a recent example with Sabine Wren getting stabbed through the chest by a lightsaber, even though it seems to be now that lightsabers stabbing people through the chest is not fatal. I still call that plot armor. Oh, yeah. So the problem is I think at that point, people don't need apparently. I think the problem at that point is are we talking about the same things we're talking past each other? You know, like, would he agree with that? Would he agree with that framework? That it doesn't matter what the genre, it doesn't matter what the expectations the story puts forth. If somebody gets hurt in a way that should kill them, they should die. You know, maybe this will be a good test question. Is John Wick plot armor? Or has plot armor? John Wick is the fucking god of plot armor. I don't think there's any character. And I don't feel you know what she's saying. Like the existence of those things in universe deflecting bullets is one thing, but the fact that he doesn't he never gets shot in any significant way and it doesn't do any force like damage at all. Like that would you because people I mean part of the reason we're watching the video it says plot armor can be good, right? And I mean, everyone likes John Wick. So is it that just an example of good plot armor? Or do we not classify that as a plot armor? We don't like yeah, I would I would basically just say that John Wick is. I don't think there's any character who has more plot armor than John Wick. I think after three. More than Mando? Yes, I well. Yeah, I think so. I think Mando. I think if we talk about how many times he shot at and the combat engagement he gets in, I wouldn't fault anyone for saying Mando, but I think John Wick has him beat in terms of sheer amount of shots and engagement he's in. I'm with you though. The thing to consider a course is that Mando's armor doesn't cover anywhere near as much of himself as John's does, but Mando is not in anywhere near as many death scenarios, I think, or fires as many bullets at him, right? It's tough. I think I can be swayed. I would have to double check like and maybe have to like I could probably calculate it like mathematically. If I do tell it up all the shots. John dies. John dies. Killed death ratio for John Wick seven times. Yeah, I think Star Wars blasters also not seeming to have a lot of kinetic property to them being just like laser beams that I don't think that I don't think it matters here. It's just sheer shot place. You know, there's no way make the record. We understand he's got bulletproof suits. That does not solve the problem if you watch the film. Yes, it doesn't solve it. The rank or the rank or killed Mando like five five. They should have died. Oh, Mando. Yeah, Mando is a very close second in my mind, but I think John Wick is like is the God of it. And I think the thing that pushes him over the edge to be the God of plot armor is that John Wick is the combatants trying to kill him. We'll just like not try and kill him when they need to. Like they'll physically start like having conversations with him or things of that nature. Just to clarify, are you talking about the entire franchise or just highlighted? Well, we don't not counting John Wick one. John Wick one is a good one. OK, OK. John Wick two. I think John Wick one does have that scene where they do have him like tied up in a chair and then they don't just like shoot him in the head. Yeah, that's the weakest thing. Oh, yeah. I wish they took that scene. Oh, I know. I can answer. I can buy that they would suffocate him instead of splattering him. I can buy that. Can plot armor be good? Yes, Austin Powers. As a parody of plot armor, it can plot armor can be good if it's a parody of it. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. As opposed to... One punch, man. You you like the first John Wick, Rex? Is that the only one you like? Yes, I only like the first one. But do you think he doesn't have plot armor in the first one? I think the first one he has significantly less. I need to rewatch it to... John Wick, we're clarifying. Sorry. John Wick. In the first one. Yeah, in the first one, it's way fucking better because getting shot in his body armor actually has consequences. And when he's thrown, I think two meters onto the ground, he suffers significantly. And in the future films, he starts getting tossed out of fucking skyscrapers and he gets up. Yeah, just gets spanked. And I think in John Wick 1, he takes a lot more precautions to avoid being shot. Yes. Whereas in John Wick 2, 3, and 4, he doesn't really give a shit. Your blankets just put a fucking coat around and just walks. Yeah. It's so hard to believe that he's the best at what he does when that's what we see him do. Also, in 4, they started making him just grab his coattail and put it up over his face and they didn't give him a lot. He's doing just the normal suit. We talked about it when we watched it. Why not just wear like a Barra clava, right? Wear it all. Why not? Why? Barra clava. Why not? I mean, ironically. It's true. If you have that material, I wouldn't you fully cook it. Yeah, I'll leave why not, but isn't that hilarious and that's a good thing. Yeah. Yeah. That's why you remove those options and go back to him actually having skill. Yes. Yes. Jesus Christ. That was the whole point of the first one. Or they give them, they have actual, I mean, you have, we have face masks that will save your life from being shot in the face by a bullet. Now you will be knocked the fuck out and you're going to have a nasty bruise and it's going to hurt for a long time. But you won't be dead. So, you know, having him dress up and wear that mask is like, could be like a cool badass moment. He's supposed to be so good that he's never in a situation where a hundred people are firing miniguns at him, you know. I think the worst part of these franchises is when you see in the first, in the beginning of those franchises, people have like a significant amount of vulnerability and it significantly declines over time, you know. When you start off at some point, you have to be consistent with it. Like with Star Wars, right? It's like an inside joke that stormtroopers can't shoot right. Right? Because it became an inside joke. Yeah, it has been there from the beginning and it's okay. Like it's fine. No, it hasn't been here from the beginning. Not from New Hope. And New Hope is clean because Vader orders them not. And they actually perform really well in the tent of 5-4. They lost their mind in Vespa, I think. Like Cloud City, they just went crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We talked about it a couple of times. The three films, you've got pretty much fully working properly in the New Hope. And then it's 50-50 in Empire and then it's just clowns in the... You don't even need to address that one. Yeah, I mean, yeah. Not to nitpick and carry on. From the like original trilogy, I mean, I think. But, yeah, I mean, when you see, especially in Game of Thrones, right, it just declines over time. And people get less and less vulnerable and more inclined to have a plot armor. And that's when it becomes a problem for me, I think. If the franchise sets itself up to be like a fantastical thing, I'm okay with it. Like, I'm not okay with it, but, you know, it's a matter of taste, right? I think it's what he's getting out with the immersion stuff, right? It'll always annoy me, I think. But I can understand people being like, it's the stormtroopers. They never shoot anybody well. They're dumbasses. And then it's going to be funny the day that they actually need it as a payoff and they shoot and they tag someone. And then you as a viewer will be like, hey. They never. Like an andor, like at the beginning of the heist, one of the guys just gets killed. Yeah. Which is unfit. And I like door. People will like andor. You're fucking up. You're not supposed to have the back here. It's like, I'm having the back here as normal people. Like, fuck off. Yes, they're normal with rifles that they've trained with. That dude's fucking dead if he's out there in the open. Yeah. And that's why we want to push back on it. We never want it to be that you have to do it. Like if someone incompetent before you made enough of a pattern of a character being a complete fucking idiot against all reason. It's not like you should have to continue that. That's not fair. Especially like an entire force, like all of the stormtroopers are retarded. Like really? And Tiger Waititi tried to make that canon that they were retarded. I gotta head out here, fellas. Appreciate you having me on. Oh, I appreciate you coming, dude. It's been a lot of fun. Yeah. Happy 250th episode and have fun with the rest of the stream. Thank you. Oh, we will. Thanks for showing up. Yeah. I'll try to listen to what I can as you guys keep going. Thanks. Thanks. We will see you later. All right. Peace, boys. Dude. He did a good video on the prebooting situation recently. He did. I watched it. Yeah. I need to I need to watch what happened yet. Gotta get onto it. Very funny. Have me have me laughing out loud a couple times. Yeah. He does good. He does good stuff. We like that act guy. Fun men. He's all right. Onions. Stomach chucked into the sewer water and then fixed up pretty easily afterwards. This wouldn't be Plot Armor though in a lot of stories, you know, but it feels like it is here because it breaks the established rules of Game of Thrones. And more importantly, it undermines the tension that the show originally had. Calling Plot Armor. Like I said, I understand what you're saying. I think it is a matter argument more so. Yeah, he's talking about like the history of this show doesn't do this. Therefore it's contradictory to its own like inner universe, but. Yeah. Not necessarily that it contradicts the rules of being stabbed in the gut and getting thrown into sewer water. Well, the interesting question for him then would be how many years do we have to treat it like clown show before the clown show aspect is okay? Right. Exactly. You know, if it sets up a rule and contradicts it and then it goes from there with the contradicted rule, I don't think I don't even think he's necessarily making argument. I think he's talking about some. He's just like commenting on reality that people find this more egregious when they used to show that doesn't treat it this way. Well, he did say that this wouldn't be plot armor in most other stories. If he means strictly from the perspective of an audience, I'm inclined to say that he's got some level of a point but that we wouldn't agree with him. We call it plot armor every time, whether or not. I think he needs to provide an example of what he's referencing. This would be okay. In my head, that's plot armor anywhere, everywhere. I think he might be ramping up to it. Hold on. I think so. He brought up the flash. I bet you that a big observation with the flashes, it's a really stupid clown show there's no expectation of this type of consistency. Yeah, Glybes just says again, if it earlier in that season, Ruth Bolton does die from one knife to that same area. So. Right. So that would lend more to his point then, right? Of expectations in the show and the universe and everything. Well, technically, he was appealing to earlier seasons, but you could argue the exact same seasons. So that point is just complete incompetence, which, yeah, there's no secret about that. Is really saying that there's no real tension in these scenes anymore. D-Devil, on the other hand, goes out of its way to show how Matthew Murdock will come away with sustained injuries when he fights. You can bet your ass people are going to compare to this when we don't see it in She-Hulk. Yep. Wow. Oh, sorry. She-Hulk, wow. The way that my brain contextualized that, you could already tell. You knew that what you wanted the best in She-Hulk. Well, I guess we'll see, right? I'm not going to I'm very That is what I'm thinking going in and I'm willing to be proven wrong as I was with Andor, but yeah, I have low hope for Disney plus D-Devil. I will say, I'm very nervous too. I'm not, I'm not very optimistic about that chance. Just play GameC-Fu with the D-Devil mod and that'll be all you need. But yeah, I mean, it's one of the, it's one of the best parts about the one, one, a whole way fight in episode two is that he gets tired. He gets really tired by the end. It's a simple idea, but it's incredibly effective. It's so good when you make them not invincible and invulnerable and infinite stamina they can take their humans. Yep, exactly. Cause Matt is just a guy. Vi was the same thing. Yeah. Vi and Arcane, last time you've seen someone bleed out from a stab wound, they just make people invincible and it's like, it's nice to actually have a fresh reminder of these things. Arcane is so good. Well, that's what it sucks about. Arcane season two is open. They're going to have to give some people plot armor. They got no choice. They're going to have to explain something. Yeah. There has to be some explanation. Good luck. Yep. You wrote yourself into this. So I asked, I'm going to assume you knew what you were doing. I feel like they can explain Jace having the tech to have protected himself. Yeah. I assume it's going to be Medeva, Medeva, what's their name again? Sum paper reveal. Medada has that little reflectiony thing going on. I think there's a power that she may have that we haven't been told about yet. There's a chance of that. It also could just be that they fucking blow it up and they go, yeah, some people died, some people didn't shut up. Okay. I suppose it's like League of Legends is a world in which people do have powers that they sometimes are not telling other people about. So, you know, it's a way to get it in. Yeah. Sona heals the little music thing. I don't even know if people here would get that reference, but yes. Morgana shield. Morgana shield. Even if he's just going up against random, nameless goons. Now, we don't think that he will die. It's not that sort of show, but getting paralyzed is certainly on the cards in a way that Marvel or Doctor Who or the CW Gimsuits just don't really play with. Not funny that that's the case, right? That Marvel doesn't do it. It's a Marvel show. Not only that, but Marvel did use to play with this. Civil War paralyzed Rudy. Remember, that's exactly, and people died. Like yeah. References. It's not that sort of show in that. Yeah, it's Netflix's Daredevil and you're showing a scene from like the third episode. Maybe like how far in is that hallway foot? That's episode two. Two. Yeah. So there you go. So yeah. I mean, yeah, Daredevil is probably not going to die in the second episode of season one of his show that released on Netflix. So all 13 episodes are out right now. Well, to be fair, he did say that we have no expectation of him dying, but that being paralyzed isn't off the cards, which is true. He could get really hurt. I mean, in episode two? Well, to be fair, paralyzed can go as far as like losing feeling in your arm or something. Remember, he gets really, when he fights, I think it was Nobu, he gets, not, he is in bad shape at the end of that fight. He is really in trouble. Oh, well, see, I think though that what the stakes in this fight, though, I think of him getting tired and how that has an effect on the stakes, I think is less about we're thinking something legitimately bad might happen to Matt Murdoch and more. It's no, this is him just doing his normal superhero thing, but he's, he's just a guy who's really good at fighting. I think I agree with him that it can set up an expectation, you know, for people of how much can he take? Yeah, he's getting tired fighting these guys. What happens when he fights? Like a crazy skilled, like basically is equal. It sets the stakes in a way that I think is pretty reasonable. So I just, what I was disagreeing with was him saying that we would have to have in our head any type of reasonable expectation of this fight being one in which Matt Murdoch could lose to a degree that it would be catastrophic to the character. Like this early into a TV show. Yeah, but I mean, do we, are we calling a plot armor that he gets so beaten up throughout Daredevil and like isn't paralyzed and isn't dead? I mean, maybe to a degree. I mean, that the medical treatment aspect of plot armor can always be kind of tricky because there's plenty of things where it's like, Hey, if you, if you hit a person in the head as hard as that guy got hit, he would not just be knocked out. He has a traumatic brain injury and is probably dead or a vegetable unless he was immediately brought to an ER. But so, and not not ER, the person to I can, I can fix him. No, I would fix him up right good. Can I fix him? No, I can't. Like one character in Arrow is paralyzed and then is magically cured like four episodes later. I don't want to give any sense of credit to Arrow, but I feel like you have told us everything there, right? You give us, have you given us all the context there? It's not in one text, yeah. Magically, I just don't know. I almost, I almost feel like, was there more to it than that? I feel like one person in chat will be like, Hey, no, it meant it made more sense than that. Probably definition. But who knows? It is Arrow, I don't know. These create different expectations around death and tension. And that's okay. I mean, you look at anime and there's wildly different rules around death and injury and pain, right? But going back on the rules that you established can rob a story of tension and immersion because we get drawn into a story by being convinced that there are stakes, that things matter, right? And so is this leading to the idea of as long I mean, I agree with what he said. I don't see it. I'm basically figuring out if there's anything I disagree with there. I think, I think that's all clean. I think I agree. I'm waiting for the butt. Like it feels like he's building up. I do like butts. Yeah. What you said manner before no longer matter. And people say plot arm. It's usually okay to make the rules of death harsher, but a lot more difficult to make them easier. It's often connected to flanderization, where characters become more extreme versions of themselves and power creep video on that. So ask yourself what expectations do you give your readers? Why did you do why? What was that sound? I just saw something that I just like getting help by making auditory notes. I would have recommended to him. I wouldn't want to involve those concepts alongside this one. We're already, like I said, clarity. I don't want to mix in other things like power creep and flanderization alongside plot armor where we find it, you know. Yeah. I understand what he's trying to say is that they can they can appear or diminish in the same vein. Just, I don't know. He is kind of referring to all anime as if it's Dragon Ball Z, though. Like I mean, even drama. I'll always just say anime and summarize them all under one umbrella. It's like they're so different. Well, you said in anime there's all kinds of different shit going on. It seems like he's talking about like shown in where where people are going to be throwing us a mountain and still kind of like get back up. But that's not every fucking anime. Exactly. Death, no, you're dead. It's like that's more. It's not even a genre. Yeah, I was just saying it's a medium but people treat it like it's a genre. It's like all the same. Yeah. I think you should make sure it's, you know, you have good recommendations but like and be picky with certain animes don't just go into any of them. But to treat them all like they're the same thing is nonsense. Like some of them are fantastic. Also welcome weekend warrior. Not all anime is good. I agree. I agree. You know, I also agree. Do you guys see how hot it was for him to say that? A little bit. Just to be picky with anime. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah, you know. I tried to be accepting of all anime but, you know, sometimes you got to stump some shit there. A little bit of bigotry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, keep your own house clean. Everybody's having a recent one. I enjoyed quite a lot. Oh hell yeah. I recommend that also. If you want to grab the watch together link and join us. We're watching a video about Paloma. It's a hell of a paradise PR. It's a kind of like Caracou. Hell's paradise, yeah. It's sort of like that Natalie Portman movie Annihilation, but way better. I'd be down for a better version of that movie. That movie was something everybody would be in. That bear scene, every other scene. The odioid reference. Yeah, the bear scene's not good either. Think about it at all. Oh no. That's the why. It's a wise guy. It's a wise guy. People's feelings. I'm sorry. I'm going to steal all those feelings. Give them to me. I hate none of the bear, man. The bear is stupid and it makes no sense. Sorry. How is this stupid? Go for it. How's this stupid? Do it. I got a library now. Because they spend the whole thing being like, oh you can't, you guys, you can't make any noise. Oh my god. If you make any noise, the bear's going to get you and then they're making a ton of noise and like what the bear's motivations make. They were stupid. It's not the bear. What is the bear? What is the bear's motivation? It doesn't have one really. Oh, okay. Oh, all right. I genuinely can't remember. I just remember the screamy bear. The bear screamed and the girls were dumb. Like I don't remember how you could, how do you condemn the bear for that? Legit. The only thing I take away about the bear scene the creepy and effective concept of like a mutant like murky bear creature that's raw is screams. That shit was screaming in like good shit. But like obviously in terms of I have quite a hatred for annihilation and its construction as a script. So I'd probably be inclined to agree if I was given all the references again. But I don't want to have to watch that. I'm calling the bear itself stupid. Talking about the bear sequence. Well, bears are, bears are stupid. So the premise of this show where they're going to the kind of hell like paradise loss type scenario is death row inmates who are each being brought by a samurai who is their executioner. And their thing is come back with the elixir of life that's supposed to grant eternal life or the samurai kills you. Yeah. And they have to work out their differences. And you know. And some wacky misadventures. And I like that it ends on a high note. Like it didn't like some like popular mangas when mangas get popular. They tried to extend the lifespan of the anime or the manga just for shits and giggles just to make more money out of it. But I respect that they ended it at the right time. Oh, you're talking about milk it. Oh yeah. And the manga and that if they're going to adopt the anime they're going to like do more list of the manga are there. I know you're just going to read Rean Johnson. Season one of the anime ends pretty solid. It's a it's a it's a good one season so far. I'd say. Oh yeah. Oh, they didn't complete the whole manga yet. Okay. I don't know. I mean, I don't think so. It seems like like for season 2. I just recommend Jigokuraku as the the original version. As it were like. It's a good. It's a good. I'm not surprised that it's a good anime anyway. So it's just a good manga. Story and does any given survival contradict in world logic that you've demonstrated. And carefully this includes part three inconsistent characterization. The hero just blitzes through thousands of minions with lives and dreams of their own. But the moment they get to the killing genocidal maniac at the top suddenly. This is the wrong visual my man. This is the wrong visual. What? It's wrong visual. It's wrong visual. Where are you playing this? You are making a point. You are making a point that could be applied to a lot of other stories but not this one. All of them. All of the minions whatever. But the villain who was actually responsible for all of it in the greatest time. But not like. He's a great man. And his styles he just grabbed the most random videos and clips. Well, because part of the promise is like he's not Batman. He just killed the edgy troopers that like don't like that don't have a consciousness seemingly. Yeah. Why did he so wrong in so many levels? Because if the point is just the hero is so good he gets rid of all of these amazing warriors. But when he gets to them leader amazing warriors suddenly he's not as good anymore. I understand what he's trying to say. It's a decent idea for a trope. These visuals that just horrendously chosen these two scenes don't even have anything to do with each other. He does defeat Vader. So I don't know why using that as a visual. No, I don't know if he's going to say I don't know if he's going to be about defeating them or is it about the choices that they make about, you know, sparing them, killing them. Let's roll back a sexy one. Let's see. Part three. Inconsistent characterization. The hero just blitzes through thousands of minions with lives and dreams of their own. But the moment they get to the killing genocidal maniac at the top suddenly, oh, I can't do it. I'll be no. Okay. Yeah, but that's still horrible because that's his fucking dad. This is the soulless robot. Yeah, again, it's still not the right example because it's like super central. So you know what he needs to do? Have the last of us two is a visual or too much context. The last of us two. The last of us two is perfect. It is absolutely perfect. All of these people had nothing to do with anything. But then you get to the one person who was actually responsible and you let them go. I think that's that's a weird thing. I was that that pointed that pointed comment about these people have lives and dreams of their own. That's the last of us two thing. Yeah, because the robots don't they just robots. They don't have dreams. Yeah, they don't have dreams. Now, remember, these aren't the ones. These aren't like the ones on the trolley. No, they don't. They don't have dreams of a life. But these are the these are the dubstep robots. They just go. Don't you go back? Yeah. And again, these are different stories. Maybe they wasn't totally different stories. Yeah. This takes place up to this. Yeah, I know this. This would be the you. I could imagine him being like, dude, calm down. I'm just showing robots and I'm showing like a leader. Okay. That's all it's supposed to be interpreted as. Yeah, these visuals. These visuals are hypothetical, guys. Maybe that's why I get Luke at the beginning. You know what I mean? Like it was two times he's misused Luke. Young Luke and old Luke. Yeah. I was just like, please never use that to illustrate the point ever again. At the end of the last one was like, Ellie, I'm your mother. Better than the bad guy. Well, boo-hoo, Janet, you're already 10 times worse. It's always obvious. Isn't it so bad too? Because if his point was about how Luke cut through a bunch of innocent people without realizing that they're old people too, just like his dad, you'd be like, yeah, but that is his dad. You'd have to actually have special consideration of family members. That's just human. Stormtroopers were trying to kill him that are trying to oppress the entire galaxy. Stormtroopers are enemy combatants in a war. So, I mean, this is his dad. This is what I mean. Like it's not even, it's not even just generic evil leader. This is his father. Like that actually does have weight. Yes. Isn't it when a character either one inexplicably acts differently or two, the character is suddenly incompetent? That visual was very fucking confusing. The snowpiercer one, I'm not even sure what we're supposed to grab from that. I find it interesting that the text says the snowpiercer because presumably nobody, most people don't know what that is. So, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, I've been allowed to know. Everybody knows about Luke. You didn't put it here for return of the Jedi. Genuine question. What am I supposed to grab from the visual though? That's worse. It's always obvious, isn't it, when a character either one inexplicably acts differently or two, the character is suddenly incompetent compared to before? It's like, Oh, those videos didn't work. Yeah, I'm very confused. And what is the thing is, the plot armor? I guess it's a film of plot armor if you had two people fighting and one of them should obviously win, but is suddenly incompetent for no reason. One could argue it's a form of plot armor. Yeah, I thought he was talking about making killing his father is not incompetent. And it's not even plot armor because this is what I mean. I think it's twice anyway. His choice of visuals, his choice of visuals really fuck up the interpretation, I think. Yeah, I'm even just the visuals. I just feel more if I found out he had a third party editor and that he actually did. Yeah, I'm not saying. It looks like he's probably had somebody else editing these things. It's like in the middle. Why did people do that? Oh wait, Cap, what are you saying about the? It was lazy. It's not just the visuals. He's started talking about how the trope of mowing down faceless or nameless enemy combatants, but then not killing the big main bad guy. What does that have to do with plot armor? The impression I got was you saying your skill level should denote that you should take out that leader easily, but for some reason doesn't. And we all know the meta reason is that the big boss fight has to be longer. Or that doesn't have to do it on our own. I think you just said before you paused that there's two explanations. One is the character-motivated choice. If they are acting out of character by sparing the villain after killing all of the henchmen and then two was incompetence that they're just suddenly not good anymore of what they do. So I think he's saying that both of those plot armor to save the villain I think. Yeah. Or to protract the story. Or to protect the armor for the villain. Yeah. To make it longer. Yeah. I think it'd be less confusing if he instead of framing it from the hero killing the villain characters that it's usually like there's some villain who's like killing all like the random good guy soldiers then when he gets the hero you know he has to tie him up or spare him or whatever. That would be the plot armor. Maybe he'll bring that one up later though. I mean he's got James on here tied in the chair so I assume which is a classic example. And it's all because they clearly need to keep this other person alive for both reasons. Yeah. Of frustrating and it destroys immersion. It reminds me that I am I who are making a point around you are making a point that is valid for examples other than the one that you brought up. Yeah. Like I said those styles visuals almost completely fucked this whole thing up. Because I do agree with this and again the last of us too is the prime example. Yeah. That was insanely stupid. Yeah. But even that I mean would you call it plot armor or just like Abby has plot armor? I think what we would call it is character assassination but that you could be like and it happens to protect Abby's life. So it's a yeah. Yeah. I'd be a way to put it. Nothing I'm like reading because like you know let's say for example a giant steel box fell from fucking space and prevents Ellie from killing Abby. It's like oh so that's just plot armor. It doesn't have anything to do with Ellie's character but if she chooses not to kill him for no fucking reason at all or at least an out of character reason then yeah it does protect Abby but it's characterization and assassination. Why didn't I I didn't play last of the two the villain you play is the villain at the end right? For a third of the he plays Ellie at the end. Yeah. Yeah. Basically the simplest way to put it is that Abby kills Joel. Ellie kills many many many people who were not involved and then let's go the person who actually did it. Because she learned that violence is a psychon and she needs to stop it. Yeah. I guess what I'm getting is there on the spot like I guess she's already perpetuated it to a degree that is one of the funniest like results examples of like the theme just completely contradicting the whole all the events of the game. Good old Luda and Arita Bissinants. I brought it up to Arianna Hound all over again just suddenly she's not a killer like it's ridiculous. I brought it up as a joke but honestly if Abby says to Ellie at any point Abby I'm your mother it honestly makes the story a little better. That's not funny. Maybe. With killer with Arya she was she was intentionally not killing the Hound like because she's a dick not because she was sparing him. No. Cersei Cersei I'm talking about the bell episode and suddenly suddenly oh don't kill like she's killed more people for vengeance like than he Yeah. Yeah. That's ridiculous. Yeah. Like she's committed at this point it wasn't about making her own. Right. They fuck her. That's hard. That's hard. That's one of the smallest parts of that episode that like a lot of people just thought of the factor and just destroyed because everything is so bad it's like hard to see Sift through the sea and shit and then there was some prophecy right there. Again with Thrones like yeah with the area you know which are killing who eyes Oh that's Yeah. She literally changed the wording of the I thing it wasn't for Arya it was not they changed the wording to try to make it apply to Arya I remember that it's the first video ever made was on the long night actually you're wrong because she said she closed blue eyes and that is the Night King's eyes so it's set up right in season two Oh god that's what they meant No no no no no no that's what I'm talking about they say it earlier in the season but the wording of what they say is changed in season eight I'm just naming anyway Oh okay it's like the secret bro I fucking hate everything about season eight okay Just to find my crazy last of us mother's take though you'd at that point have Ellie's biological mother being the killer of Joel which would actually give Ellie a pretty difficult thing to have to grapple with especially if she'd never known her biological mother you know it's better than what they cooked up that's your fucking sure game in the story I feel like I could buy her not killing Abby at the end way better than I did by the time I finished that game and you know autumn is all right I gotta pause it real quick so really based we I'm worried that we're spending a long time talking about different kinds of plot armor and why they're bad and it's like yep yep when is it going to be good though I'm worried he's going to say oh the less the story you know the more like the flash and the less like Game of Thrones the more okay it is when people survive incredible nonsense yeah I think he's already basically said that I don't I don't think that but I but he's been he's shot on the flash I don't nobody's going to be defending the flash it's like good or anything I look to me like the daredevil was the example that was good but why is that plot armor no I don't um I think we need to go further before we can figure out exactly what his plans are on that front all right I'm not sure exactly where he's going even though I would have to like check this out this foul and going man what a great nonfiction story you know what I mean but sometimes this is like anti plot armor and I love it when this happens and a story where characters who are meant to be safe you know it's a lighter tone and they're uh okay because this feels like a meta thing of like you wouldn't kill a child when it should be that if the child is in a position in the writing that they would die from the thing you've made happen I wouldn't call it anti plot armor that's just consequence I just be like oh like yeah they killed a kid well it's like anti trope you know armor I guess I think it's subverting expectations I'd rather go with subversion yeah yeah killed in a really shocking way that you didn't think would happen I was just pretty sure a bit there a bit there as soon as I saw the swing is so I was about to say is this tonal whiplash read the book I read the book too in grade school torn apart you know like a rope suddenly snapping and a main character is just killed off screen that tonal shift delivers the themes and emotions of the story so damn well but I think that actually most of the time it's less about just breaking your own rules and it's more about part four the audience doesn't buy into the type of tension you're relying on let us return for a moment to the syspit that is the CW superhero genre when I was watching he definitely doesn't think highly of the flag definitely thinks they're crying how dare you insult me these guys look great I bet they're super fast look at them go they're called zoom rags are they really what no really they're all called zoom that's their name they're called they're zoom they're all they're all zoom yeah that's zoom isn't it hey sit you like them do they do zoomies wait what they zoom around really fast you like them outfits yeah we're in the kkk fashion of the zooms oh or am I wait is all right god the god speed wow for you get your flash law right they're called god speed in a way that's actually worse it is worse what speed what speed damn it god damn it it looks pretty shit I'd rather be called zoom than god speed wait what who was zoom hold on who was that that's the that's the that's the kid that was in the last of jd's brother yeah zoom zoom Zoom so oh wow zoom is very edgy as is he is god speed yeah he is edgier god these costumes suck wow what what do you mean I can't wait to watch this wait did it and we can watch it on fastclipsed YouTube comm forward slash check it out they like I feel like it's this level they had to do intentionally make this look as shitty as possible. I would legitimately be old Power Ranger. Oh, that is an edgy boy. And his name is Zoom. He doesn't look like a Zoom. Zoom is like a Zoom. Zoom feels like a Zoom feels like a Zoom. Oh, that's my car. That's my car. That's a 2004 Mazda Speed Miata. That's the car I drive. Yeah. Wait, I've only seen the first season of Flash. I thought the bad guy in the first season was Zoom. Oh, that's also Zoom. He looks like a character from Static Shock or something. He doesn't look like a character from, you know. You got Reverse Flash. He's the big ol' bad guy. Yeah, Reverse Flash, yeah. And all of these lads are people that go fast. Oh, except for Captain Cold. He doesn't drive very fast. Captain Cold slows the flash down. That bastard. So I'm confused. So Zoom is different from Reverse Flash. Am I understanding that? I think so, yeah. Obviously. I thought they were the same guy. Absolutely, they were the same guy. Dude, someone just said, like, noble. That Professor Zoom is Reverse Flash. Like, oh, God, this is getting too difficult to understand. The worst name for a character. Professor Flash. Zoom and wait, which one? When you say, we would say in a lot of really dumb names, you're going to have to reverse flash it. Reverse Flash is dumb. I mean, he's slow. He's like, oh, he's Reverse Flash. He's very slow. No, he's Evil Flash. That's what that means. Oh, he's actually moving down. He only walks backwards. And he's good if you just add. He runs backwards. Yeah, he runs backwards. Like, he runs very fast, but only backwards. Oh, he's like the chick from Malignant. No, he's like, he's like in Tenant. He's just stuck going backwards forever. I was shockingly entertained by Malignant. Oh, so were we. So were we. It was a very entertaining movie. You're not wild, man. It was shit, but it was very entertaining. Jury's still out on whether or not it's a parody. It's not like they had to know what they were doing, right? Oh, no. I don't know. By the end of that movie, I feel like there's no way they weren't self-aware that they were making a ridiculous film. You never know. You know. Ryan Johnson thinks he makes good movies, so who knows? It's just dumb. It was constantly asking me to worry whether a character might get hurt or die. And it was really the only real tension in this movie. I knew that that'd be fine. Oh, my God. The symbols were. It was just a little bit of a lift. And it just felt like Barry. What is this? What is that? What? Oh, that looks bad. It's literally the fastest man. What's this? It's Voodoo. It's Voodoo Flash. Also, what is it? Capture, Carbix, Flash, Clips, Season 7. OK. He stole or lifted this. Oh, so he recorded these, and then he put them on his YouTube channel, and then he put a watermark on his shit to be like, yeah, I'm the one who took these from the show. So whatever. It was just inconsistently and culprits don't depend on who he faced. They have lightning swords? They have lightsabers, yeah. I remember people shared this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's speed for sabers. God, his outfit looks like shit. I know. Walmart looks like shit. It looks like a mesh on some of my like under armor shirts. I think that was good. Way worse than some of the costumes from this show that I've seen. His face is what I, the face I make when I look at the show. Little bit. Attention and the scenes as a whole fell flat. I'd say maybe your story is kind of the same. The story or just an individual scene doesn't feel very tense because readers know that they're going to make it out of life. How do you manage that? Well, one, you've got to show us that the character can lose. Plotarm often comes from a pattern of successes in unlikely situations. It's so distracting. It's so bad. It's really difficult. Like, I think I agree with what he was talking about. Like, yeah, people have got to believe your character can lose. Sure, yeah. The White Power Ranger is fighting. I was on board at the beginning of the fight. And it's a foot-clad ninja. Yeah, foot-clad ninja. That's what's going on here. The only impression that I get from this is dead evil. There's a reason why the man to television show about a ground level superhero who doesn't have any crazy powers or anything going on because you just don't have the budget. You just don't have the money. I don't know how to lean into that. You don't have the vision. Yeah. Gary, I'm sorry. Gary's been saying this for years. Why haven't we had a Batman like series, like a proper Batman? Well, it's because the CW would never be allowed to have Batman. Or they get a Batman woman. Oh, what? You mean like a real? A proper like a fucking HBO. Are you saying Gotham Knights isn't a proper Batman show except for me? They're only allowed to have the Batman kind of a round in the background. And then for that one episode that was really scary when they allowed to fucking kill him. Thank Bruce Wayne. That was pretty terrifying for an episode there. But then they got rid of him in the premiere. That that was good. That was a good decision. He was a quick. I thought it was going to be around for a whole season. That was the episode where Tom Welling getting a cameo was the only thing that was cool of that infinite shit that you guys are watching. I think I have to. I have to go back and watch some 90s Power Rangers just to recalibrate myself after seeing. Go, go, Power Rangers. Well, getting back to what he was saying. Why would you want to do that, Cap? Because I have thoughts about it. Go ahead. Can we not? Can we just mock? Because about Power Rangers. Wait, you have thoughts on Power Rangers, story? No, no. What Power Ranger was the best Power Ranger? Obviously the Green Ranger. He had a talking source. I mean, yeah, that is objectively true. Talking source. So did you have a Dave the Barbarian had a talking? Yeah, the flute. Yeah, yeah, a Godzilla flute. That's right. Or had that toy. His dragon story is evil. Wait, why did he have a flute to summon? To summon the dragon, man. Yeah, how does that make any sense? You're talking words for him. Not none of them. None of them else have like. You're supposed to just be like, hey. What are you actually doing? Yeah, come here. You can actually say and I'm I'm actually not joking. The Green Ranger is the only character on that entire show that had an arc. Really? And it was probably. Yeah, I'm not. I don't know. I'd have to see more. I have to see Power Rangers again to know. I don't know if it became white when he was good, which seems kind of racist, but you're just saying that because you're black. You know, he didn't become the White Ranger right away. That was that was like rebooted. I don't remember. Does he also have a saber cat that talks? Yeah, his little dagger had like a little tiger face. That would talk. Yeah. That one became White Ranger. Oh, OK. They was the driver. I obviously have watched this far more recently. Yeah, you're up to date, dude. No, I just I watched it at the age where I would watch things like 30 times. I remember a lot of Simpsons for very similar reasons. Yes. As do I. Balkan Skull, I think, were the names of the two. Oh, my God. No, Scully, Scully or Skull? Scully was the was ex files, right? Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Mully and Skulder. Yeah, I read it. Would I have to read a repulsa? Remember her? She turned into that lady who made the Charlie's Angels movies. Yeah. What? She was free. Elizabeth Banks. Yeah, that's what I would have. She would have fucked the shit out of her. Yeah, I remember her and 40 year old virgin for the first time. It was like, wow, yeah, that's definitely that would be top of the list. Steve Crell, give up on the give up on the eBay lady. Well, yeah, but I also she's also like tarnished by the fact that she ruined JD's life in Scrubs. Yeah, I mean, that's true also. Wait, wait, I'm so confused. We talk about this Elizabeth Banks. It's so funny. I followed all of that completely, but people who haven't followed enough of it like will just be lost because of the amount of references. Mauler, I don't think we've ever spoken about Rita Repulsa from Power Rangers was in Scrubs. Yes, I thought she was in Scrubs. Yeah, she was in the new movie. The key words are Elizabeth Banks that connects all of those things. The original show was a Japanese woman that never spoke a word of English because I'm very confused. But Elizabeth Banks played her in the new vision about Rangers that no one likes. I was tracking it, but yeah. Oh, wait, Rita Repulsa was in the 2017. I was like, what's going on? She was in the new Power Rangers. Oh, God, she looks. Oh, I never saw that movie because of course I didn't. But I'm looking at pictures of her. No one liked it. Oh, yeah. Here, let me get you a picture. You're cringe. But the first 90 minutes of the movie are kind of not worth watching at all. And then the last half hour of the movie just played. The last half hour of the movie is seriously just a super big budget episode of the old Power Rangers show. That's all. It's no better than any of those episodes. But it's definitely looks like it costs a lot more money. So Rita Repulsa in the 2017 one. Yeah, a little bit. Thanks for it all. That sucks. She looks like a weird poison ivy ripoff. I'll go with the original man. That girl went him. Yeah, it looks like a little comic character. Yeah, I wouldn't fuck this new one at all. Ranger is quite attractive in that film, though. She certainly isn't she. Isn't the Pink Ranger usually pretty? Aren't they all pretty? That is a tradition that I put in the words. Never been a Ranger Ranger. They picked a correct thing to not retcon. Oh, yeah, she looks kind of like a Sansa Bullock. In the cast, I think. Oh, really? Himberley Hart. He was one of the Rangers, I think. Rami Jo Johnson. And Rami Jo Johnson was original. Two, did the coverage of the VFAP. Audifap.me gives a screenshot of the time that guy said I had to beat those games. They're just in case you missed it. The trolley problem section. Looking good up to date. Beautiful. Yeah, yeah, there's something about classic Power Rangers. That's just it's a 90s vibe. The catchphrases and the goofiness of it. And, you know, the formula of the show. And I was just, man, it just somehow it just works a little like toys and the gadgets. Like she had the the bow and they all had the swords and the axes and stuff. It's very campy. Yeah, it's very campy. It's funny as fuck to be like, how are we on this? And then you return to the wash together and you're like, oh, that's how. I still don't know. Like I said, return to the wash together. You can tell. Deal me like, oh, let me look back to the thing. Oh, it's just a flash for me. Oh, it's a flower. OK, yeah, that's why. Yeah, that's why we got here. Power Rangers is a vibe. Yeah, there was, you know, because it was an old like Japanese Godzilla style sentai shows and not used with hands and tie wasn't there was a lot of elements that I touched on that. And it's like it's so much of it is practical. They had the big puppets at the end that they that they were in and they'd fuck each other up and there'd be miniature trees and stuff and all the little bad guys that they fought. Those are all dudes in costumes and they were flipping around and and all the props were real other little swords and stuff. And it was just, oh, man, it's the 90s. The interesting thing, though, about what they localized it in North America was it was a North American production company that just basically decided to shoot their own like saved by the Bell type show and just inserted into this Japanese actor already existed. And it kind of worked like. Is that really how it happened? Just the morph. Yeah, the action in the American style part of the show separately of Power Rangers. But yeah. Wow, that makes so much sense actually thinking about it. Yeah. And when you look back on those episodes, they can be a bit more fun to watch when you have that kind of like, OK, I see the context. Yeah. So capital opinions, what was your opinion about what he said? Well, I think what was his opinion and what's your disagreement or whatever? I think part of the reason we went off on a tangent and we weren't really super invested in what he was saying while the lightsabers were being fought with is that everything he said so far has been more or less agreeable in the service of a video that could have been called plot armor is bad. And here's why. But this video is called plot armor is good sometimes. And we haven't gotten there yet. Everything he's describing is like, yeah, that's a reason that's a reason the plot armor is bad. I agree. When are we going to? Yeah, it's so good. When is the other shoe going to drop? He titled it wrong or he's got some big like, you know, reveal coming. Butts comments. He deserves an award for the clips. Yeah, the clips are atrocious. He's just read, but especially if it's by luck because richards are rarely lucky. So you've got to let your characters lose in all sorts of ways. No physical fights. They lose personal battles. Let them lose things precious to them. Let them lose their friends. And relative aura is not a good example of. Let him make the argument. This is the part we were waiting for. OK, I give I give E.R. and such full permission to spig out once he finishes the argument on Cora. Often, as well, lasting physical and emotional consequences to convince people that your characters can lose and that they don't have plot armor. I've talked about this a lot in writing character. Is that reversed? That we allow characters to fail in the small moments so that it's satisfying when they succeed in the big ones. And in the same way, we allow them to fail in the small moments so that it's tense as to whether they will in those big ones. And all those discussions, by the way, are in volumes one and volumes two of on writing and were building, which contains all of the. I assume that his books, I don't actually know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, discussions about writing were building that I've had. They've compiled everything with a ton of additional notes and it's sold nearly 60,000 copies so far, which is amazing. Thank you very much. And if you prefer to listen to audio, maybe you can write a book on how to focus your fucking camera next. Oh, it's fine. It's OK. No, it's fine. It's I'm just joking around. He should shave, though. Listen to all your books. Then there is into all your books. Then there is the audio book version of volume two out as well. Now, links are all down below. Thank you very much. But it's not just that. If you want to add back in more tension, more immersion, then number two, you've got to use different sources of tension than just will they survive? Legend of Korra is really damn good at this. Like, if we think about it. Yeah, there we go. We're here now. It's going to be fun. Here we go. We know that Korra is probably not going to die. She's the main character. She's the avatar. So the writers very rarely use that threat as the main source of tension. In season one, she goes up against Amon with the threat that she might lose her powers. It's funny because I understand all this because I watched the videos. I know what he's talking about. I also know how he's wrong, but I won't be the one to explain it. My brain says, and you've got to deal with it. And she doesn't deal with it very long. Abending, the thing that she has always defined herself by that is a personal crisis that adds a lot of tension to any given scene. We're always asking how close Amon is to getting to do that. In season two, she loses access to the previous avatars, throwing her identity as the avatar into question and giving us a permanent, real, devastating consequence. It's only in season three and four that they start to really draw tension from whether or not she'll get hurt or die. And the thing is they make good on that threat. Korra gets crippled. And that's to say nothing of her mental stability, which she is. This course shows in is pretty neat. What do you guys have to say about that? Sounds pretty good. He's confusing you. We got you. I've got so many things that my go nuts. That's like one floor is yours. Number one, when her bending is taken away, it is about five minutes later that she gets all that bending back. So, you know, fuck that, that doesn't count. And it was the other thing. She loses the access to the past avatars. She never used them. That completely comes out of fucking nowhere. And it doesn't have any real consequence for the rest of the show. So that's that's nothing to and her losing her legs. It's just fucking the spare porn. We get like maybe an episode or two of her doing some physical therapy. Seeing an old character telling her to just man the fuck up. It's no problem. But it's so easily solved. It's just she's so fucking retarded. Oh, anyway, I don't trust him. He lies. Can I just also comment? I like his Amazon page and the only books he's written are the world building books. He hasn't really written a fiction book on. Yeah, he's allowed to have a perspective on the how to write, even if he hasn't written. How many books have you written? Yeah, fair. I was going to say, like, I would believe him more if he actually did what he says he's doing, does that mean? Yeah. Sorry, if Ryan wrote a book about writing, would you care about that more then? All right, all right. For you, that's a fair point. I'm just saying, yeah. Well, I think you wrote a book about screenwriting. Would you trust his opinions more? Hmm, maybe. Oh, wow. Well, yeah, I mean, I was thinking of like, would I write the answers and feel OK about that? I understand what you mean in the game. I'd be like, well, I'm I know a fair amount about it. But yeah, I've never made a game, so maybe I know nothing. No, I mean, I understand it intuitively if it's just like, oh, presumably you've written stuff like I understand that as a perspective. But, you know, he doesn't have to write anything to have valid and correct perspectives on writing. It's with the core example. It's weird because like, yeah, even though Korra like gets beat up a lot, she doesn't solve most of her own problems herself. They're still solved by like the plot or universe. So it's like this very bizarre situation. Damn. So what? So it's not a very good show, you're saying? Well, I mean, it's an awful show, obviously. I don't know. I haven't seen it. Legend of the word. Well, don't. I don't want to marry Sue Grounds. Yeah, just like E.R.'s videos on Korra, you'll be fine. Yeah, there you go. I have some wonderful videos you can just look at instead. I always found her annoying as a kid. Well, isn't the main like I'm the avatar. You got to deal with it, isn't that? That's all right. Immediately out the gate is a fucking nightmare. I definitely prefer the pink ranger. I've had people make honest cases to me, though, to play the game Life is Strange. And every single time I'm just like, look, I don't know how. There's no way that however good you're telling me it is, I will enjoy it more than I've already enjoyed E.R.'s video on it. Life is Strange makes very little sense. It has some really bad dialogue. Oh, yeah. But Fringy, as we learned from Ant-Man and the Wasp, Quantamania, life doesn't have to make sense. It doesn't have to make sense. Life doesn't make sense. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah, true. That's what I learned from that movie. Maybe I'm just going to tell them people I like Vampyr and now everyone's just like, play Life is Strange. And I'm just like, I feel like they're not the same. Is that how you pronounce it? Play it, play E.R. Vampyr. Remember me instead. V-A-M-P-Y-R is how the game is spelled. Vampyr. It's Vampyr. Get it right, good then. Vampyr. Vampyr. Oh, my goodness. Vampyr. I-R-E. Vampyr. Well, what were we doing? Oh, we were kind of just letting them vent about Korra, which you get that off his chest. Yeah. Yeet. So if what he summarized about Korra was accurate, then that would just mean that her plot armor is justified. He's got a point right about you can derive tension from things beyond whether the character live or die. Using things they value, of course. Aspects of their identity, other people like, yeah, that's all cool. It's just, I have no idea. Based on what you've said, it sounds like Legend of Korra is not a great example of what's there. In that specific instance, you should not have lost any of her capability right here. It's a complete asshole and breaks the rules of the entire universe beforehand. They just wanted to put her in a bad situation because they haven't been able to do that for basically an entire series. And they realized that and they wanted to do something with PTSD and they treated it horribly. Even fans of the show are like, this is not how you would treat that kind of actual, I don't know what you would call it, PTSD, psychosis, mental illness. They treat it by having her go to the person who abused her, having a nice little chat and her kind of like realizing, oh, you don't have power, me, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. That's so fucking stupid. Oh. Oh. Oh. I can't. Let it out, man. Let it out. It's okay. It's a safe space. Well, I kind of wanna see if he has any further point to this. We're fighting for. We never feel like she has plot armor because one, we've been shown she can lose and in meaningful ways. Two, the teacher comes from a believable fit. I'm gonna go ahead and assume she does get plot armor as well, but I haven't seen it. Well, so in the first season, she loses her bending from Amon. And the way she solves the conflict is like, so if you haven't watched the show the whole season, in the first season, she's trying to learn how to air bend and she's incapable of doing this. And it's like presented that she's incapable because she has to change who she is like her personality. She has to, you know, become more of a go with the flow kind of person or something. Or at least initially, yeah. Right. It's kind of like in your original avatar. I can air bend. I think you saw Mallory, like Aang has to change his personality to learn earth bending. He has to become more like a self assured and more like stand his ground and not just be like so evasive sort of. And so she has kind of like the opposite problem. And so when Amon takes all her bending away, she doesn't change her personality to get air bending. She just does it for no fucking reason in the last fight. Like that's the plot armor. She's just granted air bending and defeats the bad guy in one hit. It's even worse than- I just air bent with my frickin' mind. That just happened. She never does have to change her personality at all to learn like air bending footwork. She goes against all the teachings that she was presented with beforehand, does whatever the fuck she wants to learn air bending footwork on her own. Because she's magical, Mary Sue, this is the best word for it. And then she has all her power taken away. But she's just so fucking magical. She keeps that power and it just comes out of fucking nowhere to save her friend. I hate this show. Well, E.R., I have a question. If you ate yourself, would you double in size or would you disappear? If I ate myself, would I double in size? Or would I do all of myself? No, I think my head would remain. Right? I feel like dance isn't even there. Yeah, if it's a false dichotomy, neither thing would happen. Yeah. I mean, inside out or something. Braggs is a charlatan, a false husband. I was just trying to engage you. I was just curious, yeah, just, yeah. You lose, you lose. Braggs is a fucking idiot. He doesn't realize the hypothetical is a stupid. That's true. He could never, like, you'd never happen. Actually, no, you wouldn't gain weight because if you're eating off parts that you're cutting off of yourself, you'd be losing as much more weight because you wouldn't eat the bones, right? Yeah. I don't know if that's... Okay, anyway. Dude, I had a friend who believed that if you stuck your head up your ass all the way, you would disappear. And I fucking lost my shit when he said that. What? He was like, what else would happen? At least I'm not old with your friend at the time. Well, yeah, that's why if I ever have, like, a straw and there's no waste basket around, I just fold it into itself and then I just push and it's just gone. So it works. It's just gone. Where'd it go? I don't know. And three, the thing under the bed told me. So if you're worried about a story or a particular scene not being tense enough, then consider drawing tension from threatening a character's identity, relationships, morality, their place in the world. And personally, I find that so much more compelling, right, because that's the stuff that we get attached to in a character. It's actually staggeringly straightforward advice, right? Like, don't just challenge their health, challenge other aspects. You're like, well, yeah. Don't just challenge their physical health, challenge their mental health. Well, I mean, it is good advice. It's just, of course. Yeah, you could do that. You just have to do it confidently. I would say that this feels like very, you know what, I feel like there'd be a lot of people who would say, well, yeah, of course, because I, you know, the genres that I engage in don't often deal with like, life or death. Like, what is a drama? Typically, you know, like a soap opera, well, I guess soap opera. Yeah, the vast majority. But there's stories that aren't about people being threatened with life or death. Like, you figure that this is something that everybody would understand unless you're reading like action stories all the time or watching action shows and TV, you know, TV shows. I mean, this is our lives. Most of the drama in our life has nothing to do with like mortal danger or peril. It's just like, oh no, what will dad think if he finds out about that today? If I'm just doing all the band with. Oh no, it's raining when I went outside, damn it. Yeah, I don't, what did the parents find out I've been stealing all the bandwidth to download games because I must finish that game or, you know, will Timmy go to the prom with me or something like that? Well, anyone find out I killed Louis? I don't know. Yes. Yeah, I'd say that the majority of drama and stuff is not life threatening at all. So what he's giving advice for is the majority of things I'd say it's very localized to like, if you talk about action stories essentially rather than a lot of other genres where it would just be like, yeah, of course you don't just threaten their physical health. Of course. Like that's a huge amount of the conflict and drama in a huge number of mediums. It's good advice. I'm just wondering when he's going to tell me what plot armor is good. Yeah, I'm waiting for a disagreement. It's the clips. I'm building up to the ultimate, but... I don't know. The worst thing is in this fucking room right now. What if they're here? This points are okay. This is, well, the points are fine, but like the title of the video is plot armor is good and every point has been about how plot armor can be bad. And I'm like, yeah, I agree. Like, get to the sometimes. Wait, yeah, sorry. It would be the opposite of sometimes. Yeah, because plot armor is good as a whole is kind of the implication of the title, that's true. Like the character dying is bad, but I want them to be happy in their life as well. And it's a lot more believable that they end up miserable, right? It's how... Wait, what? Is it? Sorry, what? It's more believable that they end up miserable than the character's identity, relationships, morality, their place in the world. And personally, I find that so much more compelling, right, because that's the stuff that we get attached to in a character. Like a character dying is bad, but I want them to be happy in their life as well. And it's a lot more believable that they end up miserable. What the fuck? Come on. No, no, it is not good, sir. I didn't mean to be happy, but I also want them to be depressed. It's more believable that people are depressed. It's like, that's a straight... Are you okay, my dude? Things going well. Yeah, I think you're projecting there a little bit, buddy. I've been watching many Zack Snyder movies. Right. It's how characters change and it's how they foster empathy and endure intention for who they are on a fundamental level is really interesting. Sometimes though, it does just come down to creating a great antagonist. Hey, you're happy to see Mr. Man from Cora there? You know what? He could have been a great antagonist. He actually could have been. They fuck him up at the end, though. Yep. So who is the fourth one there? Is the last one from Jessica Jones. I don't know, actually. Jessica Jones. Jessica Jones. Hypno man, hypno-tized master. His ability is that he can like mind control everybody to do what he has to do. Oh my goodness. It's Boopy. Boopy, indeed. You know, villains who ideologically or intellectually or morally challenge my characters, whose actions build into their character arc and create... What's Joffrey's character arc? He doesn't have one at all. Just trying to say why is he putting him as an antagonist? Like, Joffrey doesn't have an arc. He's bad and gets worse. I'm happy to call him an antagonist, but he doesn't have an arc. He's just an asshole. Yeah. And from that, so the question of will they survive doesn't matter so much. Like, Amon, the Joker, Joffrey all do this. And this applies on a scene by scene level, you know? If you want to make a specific scene. Wait, will they survive for the Joker is really important? I don't understand. Yeah, that's nice. Dude, it is for Joffrey, too. Joffrey being alive is causing chaos and torment for everyone. I can't dig for that one, but I mean, like, Joker is trying to get Batman to kill him. So it is very important whether or not he lives or not. Part of why Joffrey dying is so interesting is because so everyone has a motive to kill him, basically. Right. So yeah, this is just wrong. So be nice, everybody. So don't give everyone around you a reason to kill you. Good life advice. So much. Like, Amon, the Joker, Joffrey all do this. And this applies on a scene by scene level, you know, if you want to make a specific scene more tense as well. In the dark night, the Joker is roaming through the streets and Batman could kill him right here and now. He's got guns on his motorbike and the Joker is out of bullets. But the question is really not, will Batman survive? Him being out of bullets is less of a reason to kill him. I'm confused. OK, so it sounds like he does recognize that that is that whether or not Joker lives or dies is an important part, right? Based on whether it's Batman doing it. Now I'm confused. And give up his morals and try to kill the Joker. And we believe it because, one, we've seen him struggle with violence and a morality the whole time. And two, this could actually happen in our minds. But come on, not every single scene can have this super personal crisis of morality going on inside their brain, right? Sometimes you just got a plot point and you want an obstacle. And so you're creating one. How do you make that more interesting? OK, so here's where you use dilemmas and secondary objectives. OK, I thought dilemmas was spelled with the D I L M D I L E M N A S. Is it two M's or two M's? Sure is two M's. I wonder if it's a weird looking word, dilemmas. Yeah, that's correct. D I L E M M A S. Yeah, what you said. And what I was, I was I was wondering if that was an alternate spelling, because in my head, I think I've seen that. I think it looks weird, but it's two M's. OK, the S is not relevant. So I have in my head, I'm thinking that dilemmas could be spelled D I L E M N A S. I don't know why I'm I thought that was an alternate spelling for it. Is that true? What a cursory Google search is that that's an error. That for some reason it's a way that people do spell it, but that it's not the right way. So I have seen it. OK, because of my mind. Yes, also for the record, me, Fringy and Rags and by extension, some others already in the territory of getting the excuse we've been streaming for at least 11 hours talking nonstop. We get to make mistakes now. No, I didn't make a mistake. I was it's OK, Rags. Got you covered, buddy. It's not a mistake. It's not a mistake. I didn't I didn't even make a mistake. I highlighted if something was a mistake and I was asking if something was a mistake. All I said is we're allowed to make mistakes. That's all I said. Good job, dude. That'll come in handy if I make one, which is probably not going to happen. But in the case that it happens, it's good that, you know, that that'll be a thing that you can mention or bring up. I think in your original Bearstein universe that you came from Rags, they spelled it with an N. So it's not your phone. If I see your fault, if I see a beer stain beer, then I know what to do. I know what to do. I can't believe you guys wanted to talk about this instead of listening to what he's got to say about secondary objectives and dilemmas. Sounds fascinating. Well, this video is my secondary objective. Wow, he's giving totally OK writing advice that has nothing to do with the title of his video. Yeah, that's probably how he deviated, which which makes it the best video we've seen today. Yeah, because he's making he's making generally OK observations. Yeah, this is fine. I just know why like everyone is like fine. I'm which puts them on the high tier of videos covered when we just go up 20th percentile or something. Yeah, I'm getting annoyed that he's not getting to his main point. We got we got a couple minutes left. We got this. I know it's going to be maybe an ad now, Trot, but we got some time in Harry Potter in the order of the Phoenix characters end up in this huge fight in the Department of Mysteries against Voldemort's Death Eaters, where they find this prophecy, this all thing, right? It's kind of a MacGuffin really and Voldemort wants to get a hold of it. Is it a MacGuffin? I thought the doesn't have like a memory in it or something that has is like understood, isn't it? We know what it is, or I can't remember the prophecy of him defeating Voldemort, isn't it? Well, it's in Harry Potter, so I'm going to assume it doesn't make sense. Is beside the point. OK, it's just that MacGuffin is typically sort of like item of value for everybody that we don't even know what it is. Right, versus isn't like it like only only certain people can read him like to who it pertains to or something like that is. Don't know, I was going to say MacGuffin is also an interesting thing. According to the logic, what's that sort? It's just an object that serves as the like the the the the plot advancement thing. Well, the best example I think is from Pulp Fiction, the briefcases of MacGuffin. What's in there? What does it do? Don't know, but everybody wants it. The interesting thing with Wikipedia is that it adds on to that that it is insignificant, unimportant or irrelevant in itself. That's what Wikipedia has in the definition of MacGuffin. So the ring and the other rings cannot be a MacGuffin. And I clarify colloquially MacGuffin is now used to just item of importance like people will put on. Yeah, pretty much. It's just that according to Wikipedia, a MacGuffin is an object device or event that is necessary to the plot and the motivation of the characters, but insignificant, unimportant or irrelevant in itself. I mean, it could be a semantic thing. It's like, you know, what's in the briefcase. We never find out what it is. It doesn't matter to the audience that much at all in and of itself. All that matters is it advances the plot and the characters. Yeah, they have two objectives in this scene. They want to get out alive and they don't want this prophecy to fall into Voldemort's hands. Harry ends up being faced with a dilemma, give up the prophecy or his friends get hurt. This scene is tense because even though our main cast gets out alive, isn't this the same as what he was saying before about right drama that challenges a character's identity? Isn't isn't like a dilemma, just an extension. That's not like a new thing. It's part of that. It's like it's tied pretty closely to the original thing, which is challenge your characters beyond just life and death. Challenge. No, I think you're absolutely right. This is a moral challenge. Yeah, I think he's been repeating himself for 13 minutes. I think it's just it's tangled up because we're talking about plot armor, we're talking about other principles of writing that are getting in the mix. And then we've like we've like separated into different parts of the video, things that like under an umbrella category. It's it's a very like it's it's strange. It feels like the structure of the place. It's a lot of things are really wrong. In fact, like a lot of the observations are fine, but it's just a very confusing structure to the video. Even if he's saying things that are correct when it's structured this poorly and he just keeps repeating himself, it just gets I think the the editing of structure is making this video a lot worse than it needed to be. Yeah, and the framing is not this framing. It's not the secondary dilemma. It's like it's I think it's a main plot point. No, he's saying that there's a dilemma and a secondary objective. They're two different things. So the secondary dilemma example, right? This is the dilemma. Yes. OK. But as Fringy pointed out, this should qualify as a category that he brought up earlier, which was challenging the character morally, which is true. Yeah, because the way that he intro this is not every scene is going to be absolutely like insanely important in terms of what's happening in the character. But this dilemma sounds like what I haven't seen that film. This sounds important. So the problem is I need to rewatch it, but they've got like an army of death eaters. I don't understand why they couldn't just do the Kang thing. In quantum mania and just take it off him and kill them. You know what I mean? Like the idea that like is it just a matter of someone's going to have to tell me as a Potter expert, but is it just a matter of the death? He doesn't like it would be easier for us if you just give the prophecy and will allow you to live as a temptation. Because I know that's how he presents it to me, says, give me the prophecy or watch your friends die. Like I remember that line because Jason Isaacs is great, but I don't remember the fuller context to be critical of it or not. Maybe the kids just all had plot armor and they couldn't take them out. Roo, those are very fragile. That's probably the best defense. Like they need him to be consensual in providing it in case he destroys it, I guess. Perhaps they do like a a spell, you think. I don't know the spell that controls them. Yeah, I don't. Again, I'd have to rewatch it. I don't know anything about it makes a total sense. Don't know whether they're going to succeed in the secondary objective. And in fact, are fail. These complicate that. Oh, so this is a secondary objective, more of a problem solving exercise. Then you get to a lot of a lot of conflict is problem solving. I would have thought all of writing is problem solving. Yes. All right. Well, I guess if you if you're talking about from the perspective of the writer, but I mean plot points, is that what he's speaking to? Or or because he gave the the monguffin, it becomes a secondary objective to survive because now he's showing a scene where you're trying to fight them off. Well, but so this is why I thought it was a dilemma because the whole point is, do you put the prophecy which will lead to whether or not the world is saved above or below your friends, which is a very reasonable thing to say as a dilemma. But now he's saying like, well, the orb was the secondary objective. Like, OK, it's very confusing. OK, yeah. But they fail. These complicate the tension in the scene and it turns it into more of a problem. Wait, sorry, did you describe that as if they failed by handing over the orb? Or yes, I guess so with that. Is that fair? I don't know if that's because this should be described as a failure. I wouldn't. I don't know. I'm saying I genuinely am not sure just because, you know, choosing your friends over the orb, I mean, I mean, under your friends. I wish I remembered this movie. Yeah, I wish I did. Yeah, same. Wondering the all the exercise for them. Then you get to show the strengths of your characters, right? Or it can just be plot tension in Eyes of the Void by Adrian Tchaikovsky. Multiple factions are all trying to get hold of this one person, Idris Tolimiye. And as this planet is breaking apart with him on it, the tension isn't so much about whether he's going to survive. But who takes him? Because that's the question that matters. A lot of it really does come down to part five, the yes. OK, this I hate the structure of this. Oh, here. Yeah, I. This is actually hard to follow. Too many examples. I have one or two. This is just a badly written video. Yeah, he doesn't seem like a dumb guy, but the structure of this is just brutal, man. He establishes the point. You you say yes, but the completely random. Oh, it was only the but it wasn't worth the wait. A character surviving or not getting hurt is a lot more palatable if they lose in some other way as well. Even if it's maybe or lucky that they do get out in the first place. Corey gets out alive, but she loses her banding. Donna gets out alive, but she loses her memories. Harry gets out alive, but Sirius dies. Stories. I don't see why these things are just better. Well, no, I mean, I'm more palatable. I think I agree with it. More palatable. Yeah, in terms of consequences. If the characters get out of a situation that was very dangerous, it would cost them something to get out of it. It's not what we brought up with Tony Stark. Well, yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, that even if even if a character doesn't die, even if a character doesn't get hurt, you can hurt them in some other way. You know, it's important that the scenes are consequential regardless of what actually what the outcome is. Wade Plot armor by demonstrating that secondary characters are vulnerable, even if main characters aren't so much. These stories with that poetic approach to death often rely on this type of tension a lot more. The yes, but fundamentally, and here's the thing you've got to remember, people aren't going to feel that there's a lot of plot armor if you're not drawing a lot of tension, you're not spending page time or screen time on the question of whether they will get out alive. But something else, something more profound, those secondary objectives, those dilemmas, those other points of tension. Now, as much as I wanted, you said that like 30 times already draws focus. So is he saying that like the audiences won't notice the plot armor or there won't be as many opportunities for well armor to arise if you're focusing on other things? Maybe this would be a hypothetical to like imagine if you had a film that just slowed down every time a bullet missed to just show you. Wow, look at how close that was. Oh, that was close. Yeah, that was close. That yeah, it just draws your attention to the fact that they should be getting hurt rather than if the same thing was happening. But there's way more of a focus in the story on like getting some object or saving that other person. I agree with that. Like you draw people's focus and then plot armor can be more or less obvious to people for sure. So it seems like he's giving you tips on how to get the audience not to notice what to trick them. I mean, honestly, that's the way he phrased it, right? Um, a little bit. But I want to give him a little bit more benefit of the doubt. I think I'm just saying that you can you can circumvent these problems by just pay attention to what you're focusing on, because what you focus on is an important choice when it comes to a story. Yeah, no, definitely. Like, OK, so I'm I'm harping on it, but I'm really waiting for a when it's good. When is the armor good? It hasn't. He's like, I think he's not going to do it. He's still got a little left. We can we can make it. We got time to land to achieve and get out my whip and beat the dead horse that is Game of Thrones season eight one more time. And other stories like Star Wars and Snowpiercer, it didn't really fit for this video, and that is why I have created a whole. Oh, no, this isn't the end, right? No, we've got we've got enough. There's no way it's all ads. No, it's just all the other side of it. Got his own little. This is funny, though. Of course, this is the secret of Mario's jump part, too. You can find it on Nebula isn't, you know, because there are misconceptions with John Snow's resurrection with Ray beating Kylo Ren. Game of Thrones season eight. Oh, he said misconception. You can't say it's a misconception that you see this plot armor. The Ray beat Kylo in Force Awakens or something. Oh, there's a lot to untangle there. Oh, my God. Also, he said there are thoughts in this video I couldn't fit in this one. It's like, you know, you can determine what the fucking video is, just like how you determine how long your books are. It's up to you. A lot of times, you're at the end of the thrill of being the author. Also, someone said, I disagree that having indirect cost makes plot armor more palatable. Aya could have lost the use of her legs and it still wouldn't have negated the fact that she should have died. That's true. But that would be more palatable. It'd be more palatable. It's just what consequences rather than soup. Yeah, if she loses her legs, I'd be like, oh, shit. Well, yeah, she should have died. But I mean, at least she lost her legs. So it's the consequence. Yeah. Yeah, tell me about it. It seems like his his advice for how to do plot armor well is to do things to make it less plot armor, which implies that plot armor is bad, actually. Yeah, that should be the title. That's right. Plot armor is bad, comma, actually. Find it over on Nebula as episode three of my ongoing Beyond Writing series. There's a companion video for everyone that's on the main channel. Nebula is a platform that a bunch of us creators made ourselves because we didn't like living under the threat of corporations taking away. But I don't don't tell me that's not why you made Nebula. You made Nebula to have a fucking money wall. Like what's called Paywall Paywall, that's it. Because there's no way that you no offense me, but you don't have any problems about censorship. You didn't you didn't even get close to being censored in this video. There's no fucking way. Yep. The idea that you go, we went to Nebula so we could be truthful. I was like, fuck off. No way. You didn't have a paywall. That's why. They are livelihood at a moment. By the way, that's totally fine. If you wanted to make more money from making the videos and you set up a system to do that, OK, you could just say that it helps us be more independent, more independent. But look, look at this. These are some good. Where is it? Memes, good content, right? I like memes. Oh, OK, so we go on. Look at the you like the good media criticism people. Just right. Is fantastic. I was like, you make this. Patrick Williams, Patrick Williams lessons from the screenplay is probably the only one. Well, lessons from the screenplay and Lindsay Alice have videos that I think are good. They do exist. They're out there. But overall, Lindsay Alice is awful. Um, correct. I'm trying to think of whether or not I describe it as hit or miss on a media or mostly battle, mostly good. I can't remember. I'd have to rewatch them. I remember like in like the Hobbit stuff and. Uh, I mean, I like when she cancels herself on the Internet. Has Patrick ever made anything good? I don't know what Patrick Williams is doing there. I like the gif of all the hot dogs smashing into her face. That's pretty good. Yeah, good memes. Taking away our livelihood at a moment's notice. It helps us be more independent. We can make what we want without any sort of censorship. And I think I just stop saying that. It's not a thing you have to worry about. You don't get to pull that card until you actually get censored. Yeah, it's great. It's also what kind of content is this is bullshit. It's actually lying. There's no fucking way they make content. They worry about censorship. It's not true. I'm talking about extremely controversial. You know, like, you know, this plot armor and Game of Thrones. Oh, no, don't censor me. Oh, no. I just wanted to be critical. I mean, if you are, I believe them. I'd be like, oh, that makes sense. Obviously, yeah, I do. I think we have the concern of being censored a lot. But like the idea that they do is like, no, come on, you guys, you're the one. You guys are the ones fucking cheering for that shit. We need to be free to make no takes on me in helping Nibbila grow. And so we've created a bundle where you get access to both. There is more to this video, right? Of these amazing. And I hope so. With documentaries from people like David. Can't all be ads left. It's a bar and all of it. Much more. If you want to. Yeah, it's all the way down. This whole thing is just an ad for people to. I was about to say I'm having a bad realization. I'm having a bad idea that like this feels like click bait in an ad. And he didn't explain his point that Trump plot armor is bad. It's what Cap said. All he did was explain it's bad, except when you justify it, which is. Which could have been something that was mentioned in the ad is the companion videos on Nebula that there's like the video on the YouTube. And then this isn't one where it continues over on Nebula, right? No, we've got to find out. Must know the secrets like this. Then you can do it for just 15 bucks a year with 26 percent. I know such great. The thing about the sponsor is that I get to sponsor my own video with my own stuff. That is very cool. Come down with the fingers very much. Check it out. This is down below. Let me do that on you. This is an infomercial. Yeah, let's bring it all back. Here we go. All right, we got it. Very quick together. Yes, really quick. Anyone out there who wants to make their own videos where they're going to be on camera, if you're going to stand in one spot the entire time, you don't know where you're going to focus. Yes, please. One focus point on your face, yes, set it up, and then stay there. You don't need to set it on autofocus so that every time you move your hands, the focus shifts. Yes, I hate that. I was brought up earlier because it seems like everyone does this when they're just sitting in front of the webcam. Turn off autofocus. Stop it. 98% of the time when autofocus shifts, it's wrong. And it's trying to clarify your your your hands motions or or it sees a booger in the background and it gets confused or something. Just take it off. Autofocus is wrong most of the time. It should be off by default. My shots are wide. And so, yeah, autofocus is just not even an option. There's too many things that could be picking up at any given time. So, yeah, you just set your focal length and you're good. I just want him to say one time that plot armor is good. And I'm going to give him like a few points. Just say it once. Don't give me any context. Just say it. It would just be so funny if he says. And so, for all of those reasons, plot armor is good sometimes. Yes, and then we'll say you bastard. At least I'll be a bit more entertained. Don't essays tend to have a thesis presented close to the. Be going. They don't have a title, maybe even. Pieces of armor, the breastplate of the righteousness of the God of writing. Because coming better together in my head. Number one, sometimes it is just bad writing, set up solutions beforehand or don't put a recapping. So, OK, let's pretend for a second that the starting statement is plot armor is good sometimes and then his first clarification is but sometimes it's just bad writing and positions that require contrived answers to this can come from breaking the rules around death and pain. You previously set up. They can also shift the tone, though that can be more reasons. It's bad. OK. Yeah, this is this to me feels like saying they're bad, but they can do things. It's like, yeah. I mean, that's not really. It's almost like explaining why character assassination is useful. And it's like, why? It's like, because you can get the character to do things they wouldn't have done. Well, he's still saying it's bad. Also, what a cup out of a conclusion. Just summarize, like, literally repeat everything you've said in a small sentences. Like, well, this isn't going to help us because we already were confused. So summarizing, it's not going to change anything. Three, plot armor usually comes about because the audience doesn't buy into the type of tension you're relying on, show the character can lose in many ways and give the story a different source of tension. Then will they survive for the tension? How is just like, that's just not even to do with plot armor. That's just like, give different forms of tension. That they're like, not just a physical health. All of these so far have said plot armor is bad. Yes. Yeah. I agree. Did, you know, thinking back, did he ever define plot armor? No, not like in one sentence. He should have. But the first thing he does, but big what you could do is just title this video, how to avoid plot armor or how to fix plot armor. And then everything's basically fine. The examples are terrible. But yeah, cool video, like me rambling about plot armor, that would make more sense. You understand that, right? This title is just clickbait. Well, to be fair, most of the videos we watch a clickbait. But yes, no, this with this guy tricked us. I think yeah, this is probably the most egregious because this feels more so like an ad for all of his work on a different site filled with. That's what he kept doing and his books. Yes, he repeated himself for 10 minutes. Just like his stuff. Alternatively, give scenes, dilemmas or secondary objectives in a yes, but behind this survival. Stay nerdy, grab my book. Tell me about your worst example of plot armor down below the point. What's it? It just asked. Oh, yeah. What's good and a great start. Wow, wow. You lied to me, Tim. That's fucked. Oh, I asked him. It's a good joke. I don't know if I'd go that. It's just, it was pretty nasty. It was nasty. Is it? He's saying it's shakery, Tim. The title is a lie. And then give the title of the actual lie. I'm going to leave a comment on the video. I can't believe I was baited by Tim. When is it good, you bastard? It's good sometimes. We'll never learn. An example of it being good. Yeah, it was just open it up. Well, what do you say? What do you say? This is the big problem. I don't even think this is semantics that goes beyond that. But if he said to us right now in this call, what I mean is it's good because good things come out of it, or that it's good because when you do it in a way that it costs them something that's not their physical health, that works as well. And it's like, but all of these are just concessions on the bad thing. It's not good things. Well, I'll tell you, we're just talking about the bottom. We're just talking about the bottom. Yeah, I guess if you give me an extreme benefit of the doubt, he's trying to say that you can use this negative attribute to do a lot of different things with it, which can be good. You have to say that. Yeah, like if you're right. He does kind of say that, but he's not. But the end result is that ultimately, it's bad you're trying to avoid plot armor. Yeah, all the advice is how to avoid this or to justify it such that we wouldn't even call it plot armor anymore. Yeah, it's feels like when it's like when the garbage was like, actually, plot conveniences are good sometimes. Look at this paper where a lady said that plot conveniences can be good when you make them not conveniences anymore. I remember that. That was funny. Is he saying that if you write yourself into a corner and then use plot armor to get the character out of it, that gives you the challenge as the writer to say, OK, now explain that plot armor. Give a reason for that. What he should have said was, if you realize you've written yourself into a corner, you're the author, god damn it. Yeah, don't do that and go back and fix your mistake. I guess I wonder if the problem, if it was confused because the video comes across with the recognition that plot armor is a bad thing. So wouldn't be that it's like, this is a type of plot armor that's good. It's like he knows that he's sort of navigating around something that is a problem. And like, it depends. Do we agree that if you have written something that's good that you're past plot armor, it's like, oh, well, you've just written good drama. You've written a good action scene. You've written good tension. Yeah, it sounds like the kind of advice that's telling people to accidentally write good stuff like Stephen King does, where it's just he does just do flight of fancy. I'm just going to write whatever. I'm going to write myself into a bunch of corners and sometimes they're going to do really crazy stuff to get myself out of it. And every so often that works for him. But for the most part, I don't think anyone really ever says Stephen King has written a lot of great endings. I don't think that's a controversial take. If you're trying to avoid plot armor, maybe don't have every conflict about whether they're going to die or not. Maybe write like 12 angry men instead. This is not a piece of that. Those thoughts were in this video. Because even the one where it said, like, go back and fix it. He even said that in his first point about how it's just going to be bad writing and stuff. It's just like, I don't mean to sound condescending, but it's just like, you really need to redraft this, especially being a writer-advisor person. Yeah, my bar is higher for someone who is an author. This was a very poorly written video that basically doesn't address the title and doesn't even really help any writer that much. Very basic stuff in here. Not at all what I would have put together if I was to make a video on plot armor. It had the illusion of structure and research. Research would like it. You probably shouldn't define what plot armor is at the very least. Your first 30 seconds. Here is what plot armor is. Good, now that we have established this, we can do all these other things. And when you're a writer and you're talking about writing and from the get go, the first thing you mention is that sometimes it's bad writing. What a kelp out of it. Like, this is the first thing that you say. Already, what is bad writing? We need to, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, how can writing, yeah. Yeah, and from what you guys are telling me right now, in the beginning of the video, he doesn't even define what plot armor is. So it's important. I don't think he did, unless I'm just having a complete mental map. Maybe he pulled the picture maybe for two seconds. Well, did you open with the eye or example? And I guess you would consider it intuitive that you don't stand like when they're supposed to be dead, but don't die. You know, we kind of went nuts when he mentioned Arya. Maybe he did like elaborate. We just skipped. You have an example, not a big definition, but it was a pretty good example, I would say. Yeah, well, cause that's the thing, right? Someone might be like, well, that doesn't really cover all of plot armor, does it? There are times where people should be injured and not die, but they don't get injured at all even. Yeah, cause it's like, why is this example here such a good example of plot armor? I was like, well, because human bodies, knives, you know, sepsis, all this stuff, you know, we have this comparison to reality. You know, this sort of intuition that comes with when you're portraying a realistic world that plays by realistic rules, and you show someone getting stabbed and stabbed and then thrown off bridges and things and they're okay. Like that break, that's a disconnect that makes a break in our minds between what we expect to happen based on the rules of reality and what you're showing us in the work of fiction. Yeah, I think we're one of the, oh, sorry for you. Oh, sorry, sound like you had more rags. No, I was, I was wrapping up. Oh, what I, I think that's something that would, cause a lot of the latter portion of the video is here's how you like solve the problem of it arising in the story. I feel like a good way to lead with the video is explaining why does it, why is plot armor like a problem that shows up in stories in the first place? And a lot of the time it's just path of least resistance to get to the things that you want. It's like the quickest, easiest sort of immediate, like it's the quickest way of getting to the plot points that you want as the creator. And sort of thinking about it. Yeah, it's easy to just say, well, love the stormtroopers. Exactly. But sometimes they get lost on that. It's kind of cheap. It'd be good to start with that as an explanation and then kind of explain there are other solutions to these problems. There's other ways. Just to give it a little bit more structure. Or even to set it up properly. Like the first segment is, uh-oh, your character has plot armor. How did we get here? Yeah, exactly. And the whole like, well, what you did was you put your characters in a situation where they should be dead based off of the rules of their world. Consider going back and fixing this or going back and writing it to another way because you're the God of this universe. You're the author. You can make things be whatever you want. So consider not even writing yourself into this position in the first place, which is probably generally going to be a good rule, or be prepared to deal with the consequences of what you write. Which is probably always good advice to sprinkle into any author whenever they're writing anything. I think it also would be kind of an okay take if he sort of took a turn where he said like, it's inevitable that sometimes plot armor like will happen and it's okay. It's an inevitable thing. Sometimes the authors need to take over me. I wouldn't give that advice. I'm gonna disagree. It's not inevitable, it's always avoidable. It's gonna happen somewhere or another if you don't have it, I think. It depends on how you justify it. In small cases. Not like getting stabbed in the stomach, definitely not. But when there's like huge shootings and you have big, huge battle scenes or eight sequences, there's gonna be some type of liberty that you have to take with some characters in order to protect them. I thought it was more so that people make mistakes when creating art like that it's very difficult to have a whole list of stories. You take it not that it happens, but it happens because you write it in a script. Take a project like... You wrote yourself into a corner with that situation. Yeah, it's not a natural emergent property of a story that plot armor occurs. It's because you wrote it this way and this series is to prevent you from doing that or being able to... Well, one could argue that errors are a natural production of the creative process, right? Yeah, exactly. That's what I thought. It's an easy solution for a lot of writers that they're willing to take but it's a whole point of good writing is to avoid that. They're problem solving, like not write yourself into a corner where you have to provide plot armor for these people. That's why Game of Thrones was so frustrating because we saw great examples of them not having plot armor and then some of the worst plot armor I've ever seen in my life. True. It's worth mentioning. Some decent takes and advice, but a lot of it is so scatterbrained that he was pulling in all these unrelated issues. Other different writing problems regarding certain tropes and states. Well, I feel cheated. Yeah. I do too. Liar. I never learned when plot armor is good. The best that we got was like how to put a band-aid on it or it's a how to apply, but at least to your plot armor issue, which is not fixing the issue. It's just like... I thought he'd eventually get to that but I just gave up on a nation of their own and was like, well, that's not a problem. No, guys, this is part of his Nova DLC plot armor package, which you can get for $26.99. No. It does feel like he tried to imply that he would eventually get to the point in the Nebula video. I don't believe that. Yeah, I don't believe it either, yeah. This was a... How long was this video, actually? 19 minutes too long. 19-minute advertisement for his books and his crap. Talking about something for 19 minutes, you can go for a lot of information. This entire video was like him, I think something I would write down in my notes app and just like rumble on about that's how it felt like for me. Yeah, if you told me this was written by an author, I'd be like, nah, it would have been better if that was the case. I think this is the type of video I would make and if I had to quiz into a two-day... Brush it. Deadline, yeah. I mean, the first draft and it's all over the place. Yeah, rushed and rambly, it's not focused. It didn't get that. Hey, the good stuff is on Nebula, okay? The uncensored stuff. Yeah, that's the real good stuff. What do you mean it wasn't focused? He had chapters in that structure. He wouldn't put all the good bits in the free stuff. I think only the most talented of video creators can pull off the whole like part one. It's bad because part two, it's always because of part three. It's like, oh, fuck off, I can't understand. This is too complicated, help me. And also in my personal experience, I spend more time, not editing clips, but finding the correct material that will actually correspond to what I'm saying. That's what I find the hardest for me during the editing process. And this was just rushed. He did not care what he was putting up there. That's the most tedious part, making sure it matches your words and you can get proper context. You would expect there to be some deliberateness when it comes to the visuals that are used. And some of them were just downright confusing, but the whole Luke Skywalker Vader thing was just like, no, this is completely contradictory to what you were saying right now. And this is like basic shit that you've gotta avoid when you're making videos. Yeah. Like don't have your words and your visuals contradict each other. Basic tier one kind of stuff that you just can't be doing if you have, jeez, it's a million, jeez. He's got a million subs and he's making amateur mistakes like that. Come on, man. We gotta set our bar higher. Well, on that, I don't know. Yeah, 1.05 million, apparently. I gotta go. Oh my God. Jeez. Do you say you gotta go? It's getting late. And I gotta stream tomorrow for another 12 hours. Oh, I was gonna say, we're at 11 hours and 20 something minutes and so we're gonna be wrapping up soon. Ooh, almost that way. The pot one. Yeah, I know it is. Pot one's almost over my halfway. Yeah. First thing, before we go, I wanna make every show everyone's aware, the link is in the description for the vinyls. They're still going. Beautiful. Vinyls are amazing. Take a look. The timer is ticking away. We are. We're doing records. We're setting records every day. Next to the vinyl. 1.08 of this stream will be on a vinyl record that you can buy. That's true. You can hear this stream and even lower quality on a vinyl of your choice. Warmer and more real, man. Definitely. Vinyl figures. Got one of me, one of Mr. Fringolius. Gotta check out these wonderful boxes, too. And one of me. I was getting to that. God. Wow. There's also Rex. Look at him go. Yay, it's me. Look at me go. I already got my vinyl figures. What about you, Chad? Have you bought you and your friends slash relatives, their vinyl figures in addition to your own? Buying vinyl figures helps EFAP not be censored. Yes, every vinyl figure that you buy is a middle finger to big censor ship. Yeah, we don't like that. Might be safer around the puppies than the plushies, too. I have the session, Adam, ones and two sets of Adam's glasses have been destroyed by the Chihuahua. Oh my goodness. I hope my killing the bitches. What can I say? Yeah, this one's been left alone. I think you scare them. Well, and on that note, you guys know what time it is. This time of year between parts, there is indeed a Batwoman episode about to launch. Yes. Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun. I was wondering what was going on there. So you guys get to be babysat by past us while future present us, I guess, or gonna take a second to grab oxygen slash make sure our legs still work. Oh, I sure do love oxygen. Can't avoid the trolley. Yeah. And then we shall return for who knows what's next and who knows who is next. We have all kinds of people still hoping to come on. Obviously the way it works, you guys know we won't be able to get everybody, but I think we've had a pretty good selection so far. And of course, very thankful that everybody's come on. So good. And I think this is probably some of the densest eFap has ever been in terms of like video coverage and commentary, you know? Yeah, it has. No dense problems. This is us saying appreciated because we're gonna go to sleep for a while once this is over, okay? Can I have a little bit of a nap? A little bit, yeah. But let's not get our hopes up because that's still half a day away. It is. That's still a while away. Don't even think about it yet. Stay away for a much longer time. That's right. But yes, check out the vinyl figures. There are links in the description as well as a link to the questionnaire that we'll be looking at in part three because of the way that the reason for anybody who doesn't know is that YouTube caps at 11 hours and 45 minutes, I believe, for like unlisted live streams. We wanna make sure we don't split it too hard. And if it's 24 hours, that typically would mean eight, eight, eight. I think last year we actually did eight, eight, eight, but this year, apparently it's gonna be 11 and a half and then who knows what and then the remaining, so. Yeah. Yeah. Fun on the bun, I'm sure. Because you will indeed be getting another Batwoman episode in between episodes, parts two and three. How incredible. So yeah, I guess we still gotta kill another nine minutes. So we'll have to talk about something. Oh. Another nine minutes? Do you think we can talk for nine minutes? I don't know. Maybe that's possible at all. Are you still planning on doing that, um... Yeah. Have you played Armorycore? Yes, I have. Woo, that's exactly what I'm planning at the same time, too. I'm hell, yeah. No, I haven't. It's very good. I get my ass kicked. It's very good. Are you still going through that top 10 list? The top 10 ways Lord of the Rings is aged badly? Oh yeah, probably. We got a lot of potential for, to be honest with you, I'm still surprised that in one part we got three. What was that, four videos? It's insane. Wow, we got the four videos in half a day. I don't believe it. Super fast. How long has it been? Hyper speed. It has been 11 hours and 26 minutes. Jesus Christ. Is there anyone who's been here since the beginning? I think Brody's been here one of the longest, right? Yeah. I've been here since the beginning, yeah. Outside of me, Rags and Fringy, of course. You, Rags and Fringy, popped in, and then me and Theo came into the exact same time. Hmm. Oh, plenty of people are just flipping in, I'm sure. I was going to say, just if you guys need me to pop out, whatever you need to do, but try to give me a heads up, if possible, if the rotation comes, I really want to try to be there for that list. That's a stupid list, so ridiculous. Maybe. We shall just figure out. Also, I've been made aware of this. Oh my God. Oh my goodness. What is this? Oh my goodness, gracious. Oh my. Jeez. What the hell? So much is happening with us. So it's been a, it's already been a long day. It's Lois. Ho Ragu of Animu. Is that Wolf down there? No, it's Shingo Guru on the left. Animu. Nani, what's always happening to you? I didn't know I spoke Japanese. Ambiguous Japanese-ness on the floor. Oh, Fringu Guru. I just realized how long you are in this picture. Yeah. Jeez. Boos. I got them tig ol' bitties. Oh look, Wikimora is there too. Boobzoo. Oh, Boobzoo. Oh, nice you. You're staring at my asshole. Metal's chair. Yeah. Who's the black dude? Metal's chair has become alive. Fringy's looking. That's Lois from Left of Dead. Yeah, it's Lois. Oh, and he's got the noisy cricket. Is that what he's got in his hand? Oh, is that a controller? Not sure. I think it's a controller. It looks like an Xbox controller or something. Lois is officially the mascot of Episode 250, I think. We've got a decent amount of props down there at the bottom left in that pile. We've got an R-Wing. We've got Kirby and a Goomba. We've got some The Triforce, and I don't know what that little blue pendant is. It looks Legend of Zelda. Ooh, a Beyblade. Got Beyblades, a Gamecube, my Gyroid, and a little Animal Crossing leaf. What's the little debug? What's the bug from? Is that a Reaver from StarCraft 1? I can't remember. Someone has to beg me. Master Sword. We got three different Nintendo game systems. Mushroom, Pokeball. What's behind the sword? What is that behind the sword there, that red one? Oh, wow. What is that? Is that a bike, a motorcycle? Is that a light cycle from Tron? Or is it a, is it the Akira motorcycle? That's the sword from Bizarre. I just recognized that. Yeah, I can't really see. Is that, is it Cloud Sword from Final Fantasy VII? No, it's Guts. I think it's Guts. Yeah, I think it's Guts. They're both cringe, all right. Oh, my God, you just did that. Oh, my God. Guts' blade is on point. And I'll just create it. I'll vouch for Guts. That's all right. There's a particle in the Bible right there. I think that's a motorcycle back behind the sword there. What's the one, the thing in the back underneath ambiguous Japanese-ness? What is that in the very back there? Like a propane grail. It looks like a, yeah. It's like Fringy's shoes. What is that? I like Fringy's face. He looks like a Pokemon. Oh, he looks like that Pokemon. What is, doesn't he look like, I don't know which one he is, but doesn't, doesn't he look like a Pokemon? I don't know, I don't know which one you mean. He looks like a dinosaur from Land Before Time. Kind of, he looks like a Petri. Yeah. Let me see, just a second. Yep, yep, yep. Yeah, that's right. Well, no, that's Ducky, she says. Oh, damn, you're right. Yeah, so, yeah, Land Before Time. The first one was kind of, it was good. It was kind of like, it was serious shit. It was like spooky. Yeah, the first one was good. The tar pits and stuff like that. Yeah, that shit went in. I remember being intense. What, what? Green Pokemon frog? Do you ever see the female moller picture? Yes, we actually have a couple of them we're gonna be checking out at some point. There's a few female visions of all of us. Trico? Why? I, you know what? That's the question for the ages, I suppose. That is pretty woke, you're right. The one with the boob comparison. I don't know what I'm thinking. Oh, I haven't seen this though. Oh, that one, oh my goodness gracious. What the, what the? Oh, it's a glowy. Oh. I mean. I like the thong, right? Cause I guess. Yeah, the color's not looking terrible. Yeah. I don't necessarily want larger boobs. I appreciate breasts of all sizes. I don't think bigger is better. I appreciate, uh, dev. Yeah. What happened to Sitch Chan's personality when the PSA Sitch Chan gets one million subs? Well, how come I don't have, how come there's not like a plus whatever something thousand for dog bites? Or a evap. What is dog bites on? I need to, ah, fuck it. Dog bites is 48 and a half thousand subs, so. Nice. You guys are winning. Okay. Well, so why would be channeling Sitch makes videos? I don't want to lie. That's true. That's what it says if you read it. Oh. Going to slide into 6.5 K and he didn't know. I will say, I don't think I need my boobs any bigger. Well, Bayowin's got me. And there's eight Jesus Christ. Yeah, you got. How do I operate? I operate. Is that like, is that a disability? You know, I don't know. More than possible though. You just want to squeeze him. Oh, two minutes. It's going to start off anytime now with this blaring music. And I'll probably that'll be when we sort of shut down on this end. So I'll start spamming the link in case there's some reason you guys can't figure out how to go to the Moola channel. It's OK. I'm not judging potentially a problem. I mean, you say that you're not, but I don't know why. Why? Oh, Bayowin did say the red thing is the bike from Akira. I got the bike ride. All right, I got that right. The propane tank is a steam ball from Steamboy. The amulet is from La Puta. The bug is a gnome from Nassica. So, yeah, there we go. All right. The answers have been given to me. I've received I've received special revelation from God. Just now, in light of the end as to what they were. Yeah, we got a final answer on which sort it was. I assume that it's the one that it's the guts one, isn't it? Guts. I think it's it's the Cloud Sword, the Buster Sword. Yes, it legit. Guts, Guts Sword. Guts Sword from Berserk is all it's around. OK, so that's a consistent with the video game. Cloud Sword. Yeah, that looks like a sword. This doesn't go on Buster Sword. Let's see here. I don't know. I thought you weeps would be able to say this. Let's see. I know it has like the Swiss cheese things, doesn't it? The little rivets, the little metal that's like that's a sword in the handle. The handle of the guts is. You know, it doesn't really look like either of them, honestly. Maybe it's just like a like an emulation of the two. Hey, God, I'm talking about big sword. Yeah, I don't know. It's pretty big. Well, I don't know. Actually, to scale, it's not that big, right? I guess it's wide. Maybe it's a trick of the light. Maybe it's just really far away. I don't think I don't think so. I could be both of the actual swords. Yeah, I just know they're impractically huge. Big sound and second. Now, they really are like they're only not to guts. So you kind of doesn't make it look like they're practical. But, you know, maybe they're really good at using them. Plout is really going to swing in that big sword. I guess I got justified within the story. So at least they really make it make sense. Why guts and it's it's a big deal. They got it up. It's like, hold on. He can he can hold that thing. They do it right within Berserk. A lot of us just want to have a big sword for the sake of having a big sword. Well, and it's because he was he was a soldier since he was a little kid and they just gave him adult weapons. Yeah, you have to use an oversized blade since he was a child, so it just makes sense for the scale up to that point. Yeah, that makes sense. And then when you see him, you see him training with bigger and bigger swords. All right, it's starting up. All of you flow into that video. We will see you again on the other side of the Batwoman episode. That's right. Yeah, thank you all so much. And we shall be back. Yeah, see you shortly. Bye. Bye.