 This is Anabaptist Perspectives. I'm Kyle Staltzfuss and I'm talking today to Steve Russell. We're both here at Faith Butters. We're both of us work and consider Steve a friend and a colleague. Today we're talking about being politically pro-life and you're going to have to help me understand what you mean by that a little bit as we go. You're describing I think something of your journey from being more politically active in the pro-life movement to still being pro-life but pro-life maybe in a different sort of way. Just to get us started here, maybe you could tell us a little bit about your young adulthood, your childhood and some of the religious disposition you had at that point. Well, I was raised Catholic in what I would consider active and pious Catholic home and I learned a lot about God, who God is, and I went to Catholic school and so this definitely deeply formed me and one aspect of Catholicism is a real care for life in all of its aspects and because of the situation in our country there's a big push about life, prenatal life. So that shaped me a lot. When I became a teenager I started to drift away as many teenagers will do when you start to wonder about who you are and what life is all about and I started to drift away and as that happened I was fortunate to be invited to a Baptist church for a revival meeting and at that time I gave my life to the Lord and what happened was it's not that I learned anything different at that revival meeting except that I had to personally give my life to the Lord. So what I heard him say, I already knew that Jesus died for my sins and there was no other way that I was going to be forgiven. I knew that but after hearing the sermon I did give my life to the Lord and two things changed. This was during the Vietnam War. I was actually in the last Vietnam War draft but I wasn't drafted but I was a patriotic young man because Catholics really appreciate what this country has given them, the freedom. We didn't have it always over in the old world and so Catholics tend to think that being politically active is important but anyway so one thing that I realized was a Christian doesn't kill anyone because there was at least a possibility that I would be drafted and the other thing was I wanted to serve the Lord and so I also thought I wanted to be a priest. So my Catholic school experience it really did shape me and I would say basically in good ways and then after I had drifted away a bit when I heard the Gospel preached by a preacher from Philadelphia I gave my life to the Lord and that's what started me on the path that got me where I'm at now. So you're saying in your Catholic upbringing there's already a realization of the value of life. Can you say just a little bit more about that? Well actually maybe what I'll say is how that then affected me especially politically Catholics already appreciate the freedom that they have in this country and often are very politically active because of that and so when I gave my life to the Lord and I realized that how I vote or act politically is very important and I think because I realized it's wrong to kill that this became even bigger in my life and so for a while after I gave my life to the Lord I was politically active as a Catholic and that meant I don't remember that I ever contributed financially but I did vote and I did talk about these things and I did march in the pro-life march in D.C. a couple of times and truly a motivating factor was that now this mattered more than it did had before because I really did care about what the Lord wanted. You wanted to take action. I also did give to organizations that helped young women that were in trouble so it wasn't just political, it was also trying to help maybe in a more practical way. Okay so you wanted to take action. You were involved in some marches, some rallies, you're giving some donations and even being personally connected the way it sounds to some ladies who need help. Do you want to say anything more about that experience? What was that like? Well, yeah, you know this is one of the things about politics. It actually feels powerful. It feels like you are doing something, you're making the ball move ahead because you're talking to people, you're voting and sometimes the person you vote for gets in there and so wow we've taken a step ahead. So there's something very emotional and maybe even a little bit intellectual about participating. You're convinced that you're actually doing something that's making a difference. You can almost feel it and see it. But you started to feel some liabilities here too? Well, yes, eventually. I didn't recognize this at first. But after I became beachy I did vote at least one more time. I can't remember if it was more than that and I'm talking about in a presidential election. So after I became beachy I voted at least one more time and I would have participated in at least one more march. I can't remember all those details. I did give a presentation at the beachy church once about how many unborn children have been killed in the United States and at that time it was the whole population of Austria and Switzerland. So this is just to illustrate how you can really get involved in this real... Two countries wiped out. Never had a chance to live. But there was something that happened that made... There are two things that happened that made it clear to me that this is not actually as productive as I said it did feel at first. One of them was, I'll just say it, I voted for President Reagan. And he said he's pro-life. And he went ahead with one of his key campaign promises to lower taxes. And at that time Congress was democratic. So he went on TV and he pled with the people, you need to talk to your congressman if you want this to pass. And guess what? The people responded. They called and the Democratic House of Representatives cooperated and they passed this tax bill. But he never did that with the pro-life things. So I started to realize, you know, they bring together a lot of pledges, but they're not equal and they don't equal my care for them. And so he'll do the ones that any politician will do the ones that he feels will help him the next time, but not those that are really going to cost. This would have really cost to say, I'm pro-life. Contact your congressman and let's do something about this. So that was one thing. I saw that their politicians' concerns weren't mine. But I think the deeper thing was I started to recognize by things I read and by talking to other people that what I was doing was trying to impose Christian morality on other people. They're not even Christians. They don't want it. They couldn't do it. And they don't want it though. And so here I am trying to use the political process to impose my will on others, which is what a law is. And I started to see something. This is the most important thing for me. I started to see that I was building a wall, not just between me and those other people who weren't Christians, but between Jesus and them. I was making it harder for them to hear. I would hear people talk about Christians in very derogatory ways because of the pro-life movement and other ways that some Christians were trying to impose Christian morality. And I heard women say, who are you to tell me what to do with my body? And just simply refused to hear about Christ. And that's really the thing that startled me. And with the other thing, the realization that a politician will bring together many pledges, but they're not equal and the ones that I care about don't necessarily get taken care of. Those two things, but especially the recognition that I was making Christianity look like something it isn't. And so I was pushing people away. It feels like something I think I had to feel forgiven for. Not now, but because I was really alienating people in unnecessary ways. You can approach a person about the reality of abortion without turning them away from Christ. But that's not what the political process does. Give me a little time frame for a little context here. About when is this? Well, I remember, I was beachy when President Reagan was president. So we're talking about the early 80s. So still Reagan is when you're kind of getting into the feelings of... It was before that, because Roe v. Wade. Okay, as far as, I was 17 when I gave my life to the Lord. And so Roe v. Wade came right after that. And so that's part two of why it really mattered to me. It was, here I am, a new Christian, and this horrible thing had become politically real. And as a Catholic, that was being involved in the political process was actually encouraged. So it would go all the way back to the 70s, the middle 70s, into the middle 80s. So there's Roe v. Wade, it's seen as kind of a watershed moment, at least with the abortion issue, but also seeing a culture that's in some ways just not sure where it's heading anymore. It's losing its Christian warings, you could say. Well, you know, at first you didn't feel that way, I don't think. I don't remember feeling that way. I felt like, okay, here's a mistake. As time went on, I felt more that way. But the important thing there perhaps is to say that it hasn't tempted me to go back into being politically active, because I think I would actually only add to the massive turmoil and disruption and the alienation between people. You know, I think what's happened in our country, even as many of us call ourselves Christians, not talking about after the 80s maybe, I think religion has, and God has become less important for a lot of us. And something has to mean, has to have value for us. And I think politics has become that for a large portion of the population, even those that still say they're Christian. And so, you know, this is it. This is important. And somehow we just don't see that we are, the Christians that are involved are actually not making the situation better. They're making it worse. And if I could, I'll just mention a book. It will really illustrate a lot of what I'm talking about. There's a book called Not By Might, I believe, by Ed Decker, I think, and Cal Thomas. I think I have the two names right. Cal Thomas is right. And Cal Thomas and this other man were involved in getting the moral majority started, which was Christians. It's going to the center of the religious right. Yes. And that was all during this time. And this book is excellent because these two men were involved in that. They thought they were moving the ball forward, as you can say. And in the end, they said that nothing changed or it became worse. And the pro-life movement was a big thing for the moral majority. And both of them, they haven't gotten to the place where they'd say the Christian shouldn't participate in politics. But they did feel that it was a mistake to make a Christian organization take on a political color and push for laws to be imposed on others. They move that way anyway, which is refreshing. But they still don't see what I think I see, which is that in my kingdom, the kingdom of Christ, we do things in a different way. We woo people to Christ. We encourage them to do what's best for them as humans. We don't force things on them. In the other kingdom, in the end, coercion is part of the whole package. In politics, yes, there's the attempt to encourage and to point people to the best. But in the end, you start with a little fine and it goes up from there. There's coercion if you don't do what the government wants. You're getting here already, but I just don't want to miss the juncture. You talk about some of the weaknesses of the moral majority, some of the pro-life activism that you were involved into that point. There's the weakness of just being attached to a certain form of coercion. And the weakness of some of the integrity of the systems of politics and the invested interests that many politicians have. Keep filling out something of the alternative. What did you come to? Where are you heading? Well, I already mentioned what it means to be a human. And that is really what Christ has come to do, to make us really what it means to be human. And it comes out of following Him and actually drawing our lives from Him. And that is a free will decision on our part. It's a free will decision on God's part. He freely chose to send His Son. So Christianity is actually about becoming the kind of person I ought to be. So that I choose to do to follow my Father's, my Heavenly Father's will, rather than have to be coerced to do it. So I don't know if that's what you were thinking about or not, but at least for me, I feel like, you know, as I think about what it means to be a Christian, it feels like freedom, internal freedom. When I think about, when I go back in my mind to what I was doing back then, it felt good. I'm saving baby's lives, but I also saw that I was trying to impose myself on others. It didn't feel bad back then. I don't think I recognized that doesn't really fit the Christian stance. You're moving toward a stance of you're entering into the life of Christ. There's freedom there that gives you a certain capacity to engage people, I'm hearing. What about the unborn? Yes. What might you say to a person who feels like you're complicit if you're not taking some kind of political action? So in other words, my brother Christian, who is politically active. Right. Yes. Well, I would try to get him to see, well, yes, I would try to get him to see some of the things I've already talked about, because let's just say, okay, let's go to my Baptist friends. For them, evangelism is a big thing. So I think if they would see that this builds walls rather than tears walls down, or even gives a person the ability, the unbeliever, an ability to see who Christ is and the potential in following him, what that might mean for himself. If I could get him to see that, that might be a big plus right there. It would take an involved bit of talk about the two kingdoms, that there are two kingdoms, and that they operate differently in this world. And I even want to talk to him about history as far as why the church, which was originally unengaged in the political world, eventually became engaged in the political world. That lack of engagement actually frees us up. This would be another point. It actually frees us up to do what really matters. If I impose a Christian morality on others, I haven't really helped them move forward in their own lives. I haven't helped them become what it really means to be human. But if they become, if they're on the path of becoming truly human, then they will understand, even if not right away. You know, that's one of the things a person can... I know it from my own self that I didn't see as much as I see now as soon as I gave my life to the Lord. I have grown. And so there is even the possibility that someone could give his life to the Lord and not immediately see that abortion is necessarily a negative. That might be something a person needs to grow in. But anyway, my main point is that we all, as we start to follow Christ, that we're growing, that we're changing. And that kind of thing is not what the political process enables. That's what I'd want him to see. There's a real temptation, I think, for churches, especially maybe in democratic societies, to kind of empty themselves into this supposed public space and feel like that's where the stuff is actually getting done. When the reality is there's a lot that a church, even just a small local church can accomplish that may be doing a lot more. Well, I really believe that your life lived well, lived faithfully. It's all life. You're not a president. You're not even a county commissioner. I think your life lived well. Will radiate out for generations in the effect it has farther than the effect of President Reagan or President Bush or President Obama or President Trump. They seem so big right now. But I think, okay, I mentioned I voted for President Reagan. So what now? What does that mean now? How much effect has he actually had on the world? Long term. But it's the faithfulness of Christians, little people that radiates out. I have recently been thinking about my own heritage. My people were English Catholics who were persecuted by the English monarchs because they started the Church of England. And my people had to go underground. They cared about, whether it's right or wrong, they cared about their faith. They went underground and then they came to the colony of Maryland which was specifically established so English Catholics could flee England and be a little freer. And I honestly think that has radiated out to me and I think that's why I'm beachy Amish. Because those people cared. And I think that was passed on, maybe not so much just in my family but I actually think in the community, the community of Maryland Catholics that I was part of, I remember being in Catholic school and this was actually a part of my consciousness that, wow, my people came here because they cared about their faith even though they were persecuted. And so I think it wasn't just what I learned in school, I think it was an even unspoken kind of thing in the community. That's what I think. And I really do think that we should evaluate well the significance of what the big guys do. I'm not saying it's not important it is but we should really evaluate well the significance of what the big guys do and what the little faithful guys do. And that's the part that I think keeps on radiating out. And isn't this just one of the, some of the reversals of the kingdom? Oh yeah. The things the little guys do matter and sometimes the pontiffs on the top. It's kind of inflated and they make their appeal based on that. And you know, like I say, something comes out of that. I think of Luke. Luke talks about who is reigning when John the Baptist, his parents are childless and they want a child. He talks about that and when Jesus is born too. And then it talks about when Jesus starts his ministry. And in both cases it says who the emperor was and who the local ruler was in both cases. And then it talks about these poor, insignificant Jewish families. Well, who is more important in the long run of history? The Caesars and the governors, yes they even today, Caesar's law still affects us. So there's some effect there. Or is it John and his parents? Is it Jesus and his parents? Who would have been scorned by even a low level Roman official? Well, we know the answer to that. We know which lives have really affected us and the world. So yeah, it can feel important. The political world and the political action. And it really does affect us. I'm not saying it doesn't. We have a much more important kingdom to work in. And to really put all of our effort into. Steve, now you're preaching the gospel. Thank you. Thank you.