 Hi, my name is Lalit Gupta from Iklif Leadership and Governance Center. I'm here at Lisa 2018 I had a chance to catch up with Dr. Julia Kim who heads the gross national happiness program for Bhutan So one of the things that I wanted to ask you is that in today's world, which we call as open-source era Right? Yes, where we are more connected with devices Than with our own loved ones and our own inner self, right? How does that relate to happiness at personal Organization or the country level? I think there's a profound relation and it's not a very healthy one. I think They talk about addiction now And I think for many people it is an addictive behavior the amount of time on social media or on our devices But it's so early now that we don't have the laws and regulations and the policies to guide us So in that gap, I think we need to make those laws and policies ourselves And I see parents trying to do that with kids I see schools and teachers trying to do that with students And I think the workplace can be a way to do that as well You know for some of our programs with business leaders, one of the things we first do is Detach them from their mobile device and put them in nature And I tell you people start sweating and their hands start shaking And we literally have to put them into a box and say and that but once they do that And then they spend half an hour and or half a day really in silence in a forest They start to reconnect with themselves and they start to realize that a lot of times they reach them there for their phones It's more of a compulsive behavior than out of a real need to know whether there is another message there So I think there's ways we can start to shift it I think we have to it's I think it's having a profound effect on our connectivity and our happiness And you know one of the things that you talked about is you know as the countries and move from being underdeveloped to Well up and you Mentioned this concept of over development. Yes. Tell us a little bit more about that was fascinating So it was almost there was a part of me that was resistant to the idea of thinking that because it seems so counter to what We think of it in terms of development and but I couldn't avoid it You know as I would move between South Africa and the United States or Bhutan and Europe I couldn't help but contrast the levels of development and the levels of community happiness time use well-being and I think it makes sense because nothing apart from a cancerous cell continues to grow Forever at a certain point there is a limit and a size that is natural Where the shape and the field of growth serves the whole and it's not destructive And so I think many of our politicians many business leaders feel forced to say growth is up growth is up growth keeps going up But it's not sustainable and it's not natural and now we know it's not healthy the planet or for individuals and It's it's it's a myth that we need to start to demystify. I think the other example I like to give is We all like to eat we all have our favorite food But we all know that it's possible to overeat and if you love chocolate cake and you have one piece Delicious go to bed feel feel fine the next day eat half that cake and you've overeaten and you know it He don't feel well and has consequences the next day So there isn't over shooting the mark and I don't think it's a sign of failure to say Let's look at what else we want to grow or what kind of growth do we want in our country or in our company? So when the countries they move from let's say being developed to over What is the core trick that they're missing? What is it that they need to? Think about what is it that they need to do? differently Well, I think that new measures are important because we like to respond to numbers We like graphs and charts and we like to see things going up, but what if instead of just Looking for GDP growth or looking at financial growth Not that those aren't important But what if we were to say that is just one part of what we're measuring and we also want to measure? Happiness and well-being we also want to measure social impact We want to look at impacts on environment and we raise up the importance and visibility of those measures Then that starts to shift our goalposts shifts how we behave, right? I think measurement is important, right? And you also talked about Meditation, yes, what is the role that meditation plays? Not just at the individual level, but also at the organization or the country It's a great question. You know, I think an organization can be seen as just a neutral body Or it can be seen as a living system Living system composed of human beings interacting with technology and forth so forth So to what extent is that living system? conscious and aware and That depends on the leaders and the people within that organization So to me meditation is coming to know your own mind and your own heart And in the same way that technology often pulls us away from that pulls us externally I think meditation is a kind of inner technology We're coming to know ourselves better and if we're operating from that space of more awareness and consciousness We can't help but transmit that through our Relationships and our conversations with others We can't help but bring that awareness into the kinds of decisions that we're making in this conference We've talked a lot about the moral compass How do you know what your moral compass is if you're not really connected to yourself? If you don't feel that kind of contraction in your gut when you know you've made a bad decision one that isn't going to benefit people So I think as Richard Davidson has said Dr. Richard Davidson We should be exercising and training our minds the same way do we do with our bodies So we've gone through this whole period where everybody has a gym membership and is happy to show off their biceps and their six-pack So what would the equivalent of that look like if everybody started working on training their minds in compassion and mindfulness? So that we can bring that into the world Probably nobody will see the six pack in your mind, but they will notice that you are more kind you see more grounded You don't get so frazzled by the day to day So I think it's a really important time for us to start making use of the very ancient Meditation techniques that are there combined with the very modern neuroscience that tells us that it's possible to make progress