 Hello and welcome to the Drum History Podcast. I'm your host Bart Vandersie and today we have back on the show Mr. Jerry Porter from Hazel should calm Jerry Welcome back. Thank you Bart. It's great to see you and it's great to be back on the show Yes. Yes, this is awesome. We're talking about sleeper drum gear which to me is like gear that people might not really be aware of as They might overlook it and not really know to buy it that it's great because there's there's stuff That we all know is famous pieces of gear, but all that being said, can you define what? What is sleeper in general? Yeah, yeah, well sure. I Guess this is just a term that sort of came up organically, you know talking with my Drum friends or as you're growing up and you're like you come across a piece of gear that either is an expensive might be prevalent in the Drum community like maybe Guitar Center sells it everywhere. And so you kind of think like oh, that's a hundred and ninety nine dollars at Guitar Center It couldn't possibly be good But you're like wow, this is way better. It punches way above its weight class and is usable or Sometimes items symbols drums that are not promoted well for whatever reason. I'm looking at you Piste They have for instance Piste has this very colorful catalog of all sorts of things They put them out at the NAMM show and then sometimes some symbols just Fall through the cracks and I don't know why I don't know if maybe there is a problem with Manufacturing them quickly or getting them to stores on time maybe I Don't know maybe it wasn't high and you know what came out in 2003 It wasn't in vogue or on trend in 2003 where everybody was, you know Putting holes in their symbols plant 13 inch snares sure and now you have a something that Turns out to be a fantastic find That just wasn't promoted well or wasn't part of the zeitgeist or musical trend at the time Yeah, well, okay two things. I want to mention before we hop into the actual topic is the first time I heard the term sleeper Was referring to Cars it happens a lot where I believe that I think really the first time I heard it was I know Paul Newman Famously had you know, he's race car driver back in his day and all that so he would have Volvo wagons They would have like 800 horsepower engines inside of them So that's kind of where I first heard the term sleeper where you look at it and you go That's a little grocery getter kind of car the mom would drive to soccer practice right when in reality It's like a thousand horsepower monster. So right that again is kind of something that you know You might look at a snare or cymbal and think nothing but in reality, it's awesome second thing there's something that kind of that maybe the through line through this would be psychologically we see when a product is super well marketed and Promoted and it's the it thing that we think that that's the best or if something is cheap Oh, yeah, isn't promoted well Then that's I mean really like there's like a like if that's more if it's more expensive. It has to be better Oh, we all kind of think absolutely, which maybe that's sort of the something we should shake from our you know Being from our shake from our, you know, what the way we understand gear and hopefully I think this will help with that problem Absolutely take remember. Um, oh, maybe about a decade ago. Ludwig had the triumphal snare I think it came out for ten grand if I'm not mistaken and there's obviously a limited edition I'm not knocking that drum at all. It's a beautiful drum It's obviously collectible and it's made to celebrate the illustrious history Sure that Ludwig had Now for some guy that's gonna make a lot of sense. It's not a sleeper snare But for someone else, you know is exactly what you said because it of the price tag then we've imbued it with a Musical value which may or may not be there. I don't yeah, you know, I'm not gonna weigh in on that That's for the owner but no, there's certain gear that is the opposite of sleeper It is it is wide awake where it's a four thousand. It's a four thousand dollar commemorative snare Where nothing says that it has to be good. I'm sure it is good and they're super cool But those are those are different. That's like the opposite of what we're talking about of yeah Oh, those are like this is expensive. This is nice. It comes in a case. It's super cool Right, you need both sides, but alright, so I know you you've talked to some friends You've put a list together. You've got a lot of notes I have my notes and I'm proud to say it looks like it's sixth grade handwritten You know I did I talked to a few guys I talked to a great buddy of mine Patrick Wiseman who is an absolute Delightful symbol freak. I say that as a term of endearment I talked with Chris Hewer of Hewer drums Hewer drum lab everybody should know Chris Hewer He is one of the most knowledgeable guys makes fantastic drums I talked for a little bit with Dave Vila to Mario Caleri just got people who are playing and also Just have played thousands of thousands of shows just said hey, what's on your mind? And then you know what comes to mind when we come up with these terms. That's a real sleeper flat ride Yeah, so and then throughout my own experience. So Yeah, we can so you know, so I know you have Symbols drums snares and then drums sets. So I mean you're people think of you a lot with symbols I know you do you have Thousands and thousands of drums come through your your hands with hazel should comm which yeah, I will mention too that Jerry was on Another episode that was super cool. That was more about like, you know valuable symbols and and and things like that which which it really kind of Blossomed into a whole another great conversation with that one. I'll link that in the description Check out hazel should comm obviously, but for now Jerry, why don't you jump in and how about start with symbols? Sure, I'd be happy to well. I already lightly roasted piste I think that they're a fat a fascinating company because there's so many pistes That people don't know about they're famous of course for their 2002 line and John Bonham and all that Which is great, but they're even within their most renowned series you find these Gaps or lacunae of symbols that are just seemed to fly away They go missing like for instance the 2002 18 inch flat ride now, I know a lot of people go a 18s as a ride is like bizarre for people now because we're in this world of 22s and 26 ride So an 18, but what it does as an example is it gives you a very quick response and a fast decay And it gets out of the way quickly And that can be a great foil to a bigger ride or like a you know a ride with a big bell or a big crash ride The 2002 18 inch flat ride is a very pinpoint precise clean tone that's really even and It was out of the catalog for I Don't need it. You know probably at least 20 years. They they've recently I Think a year or two ago. They brought back this like they they dumped all the flat rides That have been discontinued. They dumped him out at the NAMM show There's like the 2002 and they had the masters and the brought back some traditionals and Basically everything but that's a perfect example of a symbol. You don't see very often But when you do they don't really go for a lot of money And I think that they're worth. I mean brand new. It's like under 300 bucks I think right around there and that's a perfect example of a symbol that You don't have to be playing in a 1977 rock progressive Unicorn yeah, prog rock band to play. They're really good for singer songwriter gigs It's not too Rockin if you're playing a jazz You know set up. You might maybe use a nylon tip or a smaller bead, you know, a good universal Type it's a great flat ride. I think people don't you know just sort of pass over another example of a perfect example really of a sleeper Pisty and this is kind of where I came up the term the alpha line for instance the alpha line I have some right here now. This was like an intermediate Series that nobody cared about. There's supposed to be like for the You know, I don't know up and coming player. These are 12 inch medium hats Which is they're they're 2002 adjacent and you know They made an alpha flat ride now not every symbol in that series was good The power crashes were a little like oof geez but the sound edge hats were great the medium hats were Better than they should have been These little twelves are great if you want, you know, like a quick Auxiliary hat or something, you know something really tight and bright And uh, the flat ride was phenomenal Yeah, it was yeah, the the alpha in general maybe Maybe piste in general. I don't feel like I fully know the like Tears quite as much and there's different and I've done I've done actually Hours and hours of episodes now on piste But I feel like with zilgen and sabian and minel to some degree. It's maybe more Marketed the like levels, but maybe I shouldn't be as affected by like this is mid tier I don't want that. I am I've played my whole life. I can't play a mid tier So there's a whole dude. I don't think piste knows their tier I don't say I mean they famously didn't because the 404 hats And the 505s Were came out in the 80s. I think it was a uh You know it was supposed to be an extension or replace the stenople or something like that Yeah, yeah, but the 404 hi hats their mediums and the 404 heavies are like About as thin as zilgen trans stamp 1940s hi hats. They sound phenomenal and you know, they're not good if you're You know playing rat or motley crew or something You know pantera, but if you want like a thin wispy complex very responsive hi hat Uh, they're not a lot of money. They sound a little dirty And um in a good way and yeah, they're phenomenal the rides are very nice, too That's just a straight up 20 inch ride put some rivets in It's a really nice. It's not as Piste clean, you know, it's got a little bit of dirt Yeah, which maybe that's a good thing if you don't like the piste clean But you want to experiment with it And it's cool, too because like if you're dealing with 500 rides and symbols You don't really have I mean, I don't have too much wiggle room to be like i'm gonna buy this and play with it and then resell it I mean you could you usually get your money back, but it's a lot easier if it's a $150 $200 symbol. Well, I was kind of thinking about all right just to What's fun about sleeper gear is really like it's the it's like the drum safari Right, it's like you're You're going out. It's you know, there's it's a nexus, right It's like you're gambling Which I don't know maybe I I say let's do that healthy healthily, you know, but yeah, if you have problems But no you take a chance, which is kind of cool. You're like, I don't all right I know what the piste signature full crash does fine. What are the 404 hats do or what is it? Here's I'll tell you the 2000 series mellow china Was one of the coolest chinas that they made it just it was mellow It was kind of like a pang almost instead of like the big It was like a mellow or pang And the 2000 series was an intermediate series that a lot of people just skipped right over so There's I think it's like For the sleeper gear safari if we're gonna go on I'd say, you know, you're gambling you're taking a chance You're saving money. You can find great deals on stuff Certainly if you can turn it around if you buy something for 180 bucks You know, yeah, you could turn it around. Maybe you sell it for 140 bucks It's like but the 40 dollars you learned is worth it There's the education of what the symbol does Or the snare drum does and what it doesn't do what it's good for How it sits with you how it inspires you how it brings, you know, how it challenges your playing Like the 404 is you can't just smash on so you have to be a little bit lighter They sound if you're playing they sound really nice. You have to adjust your playing a little bit And that's its own challenge. Yes, that's a whole learning You know lesson about drums is you don't have you don't play the same Like you do on a rude or like a z custom As you do on like an a custom or or a whatever any of these, you know lighter the 404s or anything like that Absolutely. I mean, obviously the way the item or the piece responds, but also the way it hits your ear Yeah, yeah, if you know if you're playing a megabell The rest is gonna, you know, you might break a couple ribs and adjust so you know and and I want to throw out there too because um You know, I would almost call one of the the king of this may be on your list but maybe the king of Sleepers for me growing up was like it was like the sleeper that everyone knew about Because of neil and all everyone and a multiple other drummers though is wuhan because They were affordable and they're still out there, but it was like a Every year i'm going to go and get my whatever size china And I think even then you would get a free splash or something Then you would trash it and have a big chunk. I mean, I probably went through one every year or two Uh, which is probably speaking to my plane as a kid of just, you know Break painted incorrectly, but but they were great and I think they became famous for like, oh, this is It was like 50 bucks or something like that. Yeah, and I think you got free soup with it It was totally soup you eat out of the you'd eat out of china No, that's the perfect example and it kind of messes with your head because we're so Um bombarded with marketing and here's this wuhan that's 50 bucks and you're like that's gotta be garbage But then neil's plan won and then you hear it and it goes And you're like dang duty's doing that thing in subdivisions. It's like Like how neil made it cool Yeah, and you're like how could this only be 50 dollars? and You know, so that's a perfect example and a famous one too. Yeah. Yeah Also, I mean lastly, I'd say if you have sleeper gear And I think this is a you know wonderfully petty Is you get to get these sort of creative Bonus points when somebody comes up and they go, hey man, what is like? What is that symbol you're using and you go? No, you don't know about the alpha flat rod I mean I listen I thought that was and it made you seem cooler for not caring about oh, you're using a You know a 13 inch zbt. It's like yeah, right. It's it's you know, it's kind of a secret It's kind of yeah, exactly. It's kind of oh, I'm sure you know what? I'm sure it'll it'll come to It'll come to your town someday. Yeah, that's fine. You just stick with the kid Yeah, you do bonus points. Yeah, you're right. I mean and also but also, you know You get a unique tone other people don't have If you do play jazz with the 404 rye with sizzles, it's like, okay that guy's not using a k constantanople You know, which a lot of you see, you know everywhere at the great symbol I get it. But if you have a 404 ride with rivets Yeah, somebody might come up, you know, if there's a guy out there, he's going to be like that thing sounds fascinating I don't know what it is which I think this go this is obvious the To preface all this with there's nothing wrong with playing a full set of a customs that you bought in a box You know, it's again the gear is supposed to inspire you Um and and you shouldn't be fighting you just shouldn't be fighting it if you're playing a rock gig You don't want to play you want to be playing the piste masters extra thin hats You know, it's it's yeah, you're you're you're just going to be concentrating on the high hats And yeah, and it's going to take you out of the song and the band and You know, this episode is brought to you by mono Mono makes extremely durable and stylish cases and bags that are made for musicians and creators on the go I've been using the mono m80 classic fly by ultra backpack for the last two years And this is hands down the nicest backpack i've ever owned It has tons of space that holds your computer interface microphone hard drive midi controller or anything you need on the road It's waterproof full of protective padding has multiple storage compartments and is very comfortable to wear My favorite part about the fly by ultra backpack though is how you can unzip the back portion of the bag And then you have a second thin streamline backpack that has plenty of room for laptop and accessories And it has a very cool and sleek design I use just this slim part of the bag all the time when walking around drum shows or going to meetings And then I just zip the full backpack back together load up my gear and hit the road Check out the mono m80 classic fly by ultra backpack and all the great mono gear through sweet water at the link in the description of this episode I've used this backpack every day for about two years now and it looks pretty much brand new But if you order through sweet water, you also get the peace of mind of having a free two year full warranty Thanks to mono for sponsoring this episode How about a few more symbols and then we do we move over to drums? I mean if you have any other brands like zilgen piste or i'm sorry we did we did Here's one that you you know I'll do a quick a quick list of the piste stuff that I think is underrated Heavy hats Just anything 2002 heavy hats. They're not that heavy They're like 70s newbie weights. They're they're not weighing in at z customs. Um, I think the alex van halen ride But play it lightly That's a really it's like a big crash ride Do you think alex van halen is going to be this wall white noise? It does that well You can play it really lightly and it's very smooth. Um, I had a 26 inch giant beat A lot of people don't even know that piste made that or offered that it came out at nam Then I don't know it's like one went to jimmy hoffa and it's gone it's just So the 26 inch giant beat that was one of the coolest symbols We've recorded and had at hazel showed dot com and in recent memory. It just Kind of did what you wanted. Um any of the sound the sound formula medium heavy Hi hats. I had a piste color sound china Jazz dude asked me he wanted something a little jack degenet ish something that was kind of mellow And I I said I said dude, I have this piste color sound china No one will ever believe me. They only think it's appropriate if you're playing in rat And what color was it? It was black It was a black color sound china and I like I could I it just was living in my shop And everybody jumping over it being like I don't plan rat rat. That's for bobby blotzer And my buddy called me up. I said give it a listen like seriously listen to the video He got it a few days ago and he's like this thing is amazing because it's dry It's a dry china and it was mellow. It was like 40 years old. Um You know the rude hi hats are can be really good if you just want like a tight clean tone Everybody thinks of them as like kind of rock and metal hats If if you shut your eyes Just play them lightly. They're pretty focused. That's a good point too across all this your eyes can be deceiving quick beats Yeah, jr. Robinson use 15 inch quick beats for you know, all that 70s and 80s stuff They're really heavy, but the way he plays them kind of on top. He gets that nice, you know real tiki Very clean, which is perfect for the studio Sure migrating into zildzins here the 22 inch deep ride um Steve gad had one in the 70s And it sounds like Why I like the deep ride? It's got a big bell. It's heavy, but the plane is very flat So it's a lower tone and a very chimie a very chimie attack it actually sounds like uh An 80s k Oh, okay. Yeah, it's almost it's not a stretch to see why steve gad like that because yeah He then played these heavy k's in the 80s. So 22 inch deep ride is really good. Um, are those rare and expensive or I mean are they I mean, that's where that's where it's a gear safari Yeah, yeah, that's where you gotta sure I mean that's craigslist where someone might have one in your town and they're like 100 bucks Whatever I'm getting rid of my my son's drum gear or whatever or my dad had some drum gear or something And and there's all sorts of vintage stuff like that. That's great. No nobody plays mini cups You know and and you're like no, okay. It's not the most versatile symbol But it's cool for you know, it's cool for a thing. They used them a ton in the 70s in the studios so Oriental classic china Oriental trash crash the trash cash had like a flattened bell and it was paper thin You can't find them. I think the the z power smash It's a pang. It's like an unlaid pang and it's weird. I mean it's again. That's not necessarily for your most versatile Wedding gig that you're doing can you explain or define what a pang is for people a pang? It is a little confused. There's like a china. There's a swish. There's a china low a china high There's a pang. Yeah, the pang knocker a swish knocker the knocker has like the you know is is enraved with like 20 rivets Yeah, the pang has Like a very pronounced profile. It kind of goes out like that and and and the lip on the pang according to you know the Literature or whatever the lip on the pang is flattened Whereas a china will curve up like that the lip on the pang is flat and they I remember in the one zilgen catalog They said so it's easy to rivet Okay. Yeah, like I don't know you can't rivet like the Going upwards. They're like you can rivet it And and what it does is the the wide profile it falls in between a crash And a china it has a longer sustain and it sounds it. Yeah, it's it's It's almost okay, but yeah, it's a variety of a china china family And then it's uh closer to a crash Gotcha. Okay. Yeah, and it has a mellower. It has a mellower attack It's usually a little easier if you want to ride on it like a mel lous thing cool, there was uh light rides Light rides are you know light hats zilgen made light vintage there's you every once in a while You see these vintage light hats Because back in the day you had new beats quick beats light hats You know and they're they're they're Thin and they're really nice You know rolling down a quick sabian list. Sure the hh sound control. That's a famous one 22 inch hh. That's kind of a known Sleeper a lot of people look for those the ed big pin flat rides. They made an 18. They made a 22 They're a little harder to find but they're out there And they're beautiful I had an a explosion 21 That we were recording it doing a demo and we looked at it like We have found the symbol that will do everything It's it's cool to i'm here to impress you because you report you record so many so so to explain though for people who may Not know that hazel should calm has examples of pretty much every of every symbol and drum that comes through The door so that's when you're you're recording these To hear the sound of the symbol not recording it to put on an album right which can be modified You're going for pure symbol sound right and you know, that's what we do to sell I mean, I do a lot of uh online internet business and I know buying symbols online is hard So there's a video for every offering that we have so you can hear it you can hear it in context Um and so but the ed big pin is is that something to look up the ed big pin is great Yeah, it's it's it's I mean it's mellow. It's got a nice crystalline Light, you know at the thing about this stuff finding the sleeper gear is exploring it Exploring it. I feel like yeah instead of finding the perfect dart For the perfect bullseye, you know in this case you kind of Sit back and you develop or you think about the relationship that you know between you the dart and the target I know like what if they're all equal And it's not so linear and Yeah, it just it's about learning education and experiencing it and then you know, maybe you sell it Yeah, that's the cool thing. There's nothing wrong with playing it selling it And you're allowed to like different brands and you're allowed to like different rides The knowledge that you had I as I said, I think last time I liken symbols to books You know, you you have the book you don't really know what it's about Maybe there's a conspectus on the front page or the bet you go. Okay. It's something. It's you know, it's you know Nonfiction about history, but you don't know until you read it Once you read it That's what you know the the the value isn't the paper the pulp it's printed on the value is What you read and ingested I see the symbols of the same way, you know You you own them you play you play gigs with them you explore and that's the you know, the value is already there Even if you sell it and you lost money, it's like you didn't You gained all about it. Yeah um The oh the 21 inch a a explosion. This was a perfect example of a sleeper symbol because Everybody sees a a x. It's kind of a guitar center Big box store fodder. No, it's not bad, but it's not like your artisan or your k-con It has a raw bell that goes ding ding ding It's really loud But it tapers out and the edge is really saw like really light and crashable So you could crash on it exceptionally well You can do a light ride on it really well like if you're doing a mellow thing If you just shut your ears you don't pay attention to the fact that it's called an explosion you know, it's They should put that in the commercial you doing that I mean, that's but that's that's the marketing and the they're trying to get but again, you have to close your eyes And just listen. Yeah, you have to close your eyes. I don't know why the hell they call it an explosion It's really versatile and mellow and we honestly we sat there a gog where like dude This does everything and it's just a regular ass a a x Yeah, so now we know yeah Yeah, uh, so that's some sabian. That's some pasty. That's some zilgen What about minal or like some of the before we move on to drums Minal or some of the u-fips or the even them like going back like the zins and the oh sure Well or not rare, but the older kind of no name brand zilcos You know you come across a zilcos not all of them are good They were like some of them are like zilgen seconds and whatever and you're like fine You're like a lot of the hats Are fantastic and if you don't like the way that it sounds like you get some zilco hats You don't like the way it sounds just turn them around Try them the other way try them the other way. Yeah, you know some of the pasty supers Especially if you get a bigger one like a 22 Some of the Ludwig standards can be really good. Some of them are harsh and brittle and kind of gnarly And you know that's when you put rivets in it and then after a while you drill holes And then after a while you hang it on the wall I'm not gonna use that anymore There was a lot of those back in the day where but then there's probably some like false Uh, you know like desire forum where it's like oh ringo had a zen or an ajax or whatever So I have to have it and you get it and you go this is kind of Not what I thought it would be so it's the opposite of a sleeper Well, you know what does that sounds really good if you have paul and john singing Yeah, that's kind of most of us don't yeah Yeah, that's usually when that sounds good. It kind of blossoms. Um, yes Uh, you know the mino you mentioned mino. I'm a big fan of the dragons the dragon series of the 80s that I think they were wuhans they're they were um They were at the time they came out and they were they look hand hammered. I I think they're wuhans I think mino like mino just kind of goes and has other people make their symbols sometimes You know like their entire bazaar series is made in turkey and you know, I think the the um The giant, you know, the the dragons were made in china arie honing played them for a while. They're super trashy and they're Very cool Very interesting Well, that that happens all the time with I mean a it happens just in Production across the board of everything where like you're getting one thing that has a label on it That's like super expensive and then there's a lower tier Brand on it and it's the same thing, but I've heard the things where there was like I think ufib had a drawer full of stamps. There were different brands where they were manufacturing them for like Lower tier simple companies and it was just like Comes from the same factory a praxis There was yeah, I think if I'm either it was like if basically if it says made in italy on it You're like it's coming. There's not easy to hide that. Yeah, pretty much you Yeah, so uh one thing too before we move on is everyone listening comment Message whatever find this on youtube if you're listening in the the podcast area or on social media Tell us your favorite sleeper symbols drums Snares drum sets gear Hardware there's tons of it out there. I'm even like I have it. Yeah. Yeah, go ahead My list is not as far from exhaustive. These are just things that I think are fun And that that's the safari. I mean that's just my safari. Everybody should have their own Yeah, absolutely. So comment. Let us know and I think that's a lot of the fun But all right, jerry, why don't we move on to some drums snares drums or drum kits hardware? Whatever you got. I'm in the first thing a Ludwig pioneer everybody It's kind of you know, it's it's that's one of those known sleepers The Ludwig pioneer you're like it's a six lug. It was a student model And some guys are like I can't play that if it's under eight lugs or you know, and you're like I They sound wide open. They sound fat. I work with the studio I have a six and a half there and the guy, you know the producer owns It's like there's three snares that are on 90% of the you know record the my tomabel brass He's like your Ludwig solid shell from the 20s He's like and if there's something that I need a little different Like kind of fat or like a ballad or something. He goes. I use that that Ludwig I'm like, which one he's like the one that you said everybody thinks is crappy, but isn't Like oh, when was the pioneer the pioneer? Yeah, when was the pioneer made? Is it still being made? I mean, what's the I don't it was the six lug. I see them all from the 60s Okay. Yeah, I'm sure there's Guys could chime in that had an earlier There was also like the early 20s models that were like That's what I was two piece. Yeah. I'm talking about the wooden one. I guess Okay, it's like the jazz fest, but a six lug Got it. That's sort of the one I'm thinking of I had a buddy of mine. He had a die cast hoop. He put it on is uh Brendan Buckley his fan. Oh, yeah, right. Yeah, he had he uh, he took one of it was one of the one snares I kind of regret I like sold it to him and I was like Oh, I don't know dude. Yeah Bill Detimore had recut the hoops from pork pie. So and and there was a die cast hoop on it. It was phenomenal um pearl blx From the 80s the birch line. That's kind of like pearls yamaha recording They're recording custom from the 80s pearl had one who's the blx. That's chris hewers One of his all-time favorite kits and they record really well and they're kind of You know, they had it. It's like you you can recognize there's like superman blue Like the color and then there's like a red one I think white and you see him, you know, you see him on ebay You see him on reverb and they don't they don't really command that much money and I I think it I think they're undervalued for that um I'd say If you can find it it's a little harder, but some of the greg gaylord snares You have to look a little bit, but I I think they you know, he um He worked for johnny craviato for a long time, but before he had gay lord, you know, he had blocked block drums block snares Uh, he made a few kits, but block snares all out of different woods like really exotic woods that I would have to go and uh google and be like, oh, that's fan fantastic You know you gotta oh, but but that's even it though you kind of look it up and you go Oh, yes, now I like it because it's yes, and it's right. It's really though if you hear it if you hear it It's like oh man, that's incredible and and that's even the the the plight of the kind of uh um The builder is like you're competing with these yeah huge brands who are releasing snares that aren't becoming part of the like everyday common you know super phonics so to even be a Uh a lower, you know like an independent builder It's that much harder to create things that that become part of like the known. This is great So it's tough for I mean it goes without saying it's tough to get above sleeper level where it's known And is a is a household name kind of snare drum so and that's I think if you're if you're a manufacturer like okay So do you raise the price? And then people imbue it with the value this must sound good because it's five grand Yeah, and marketing and more there's more money behind that's like movies. It's like a movie Is advertised well people think it's good and absolutely, you know, so yeah Um, I mean, there's also famous sleepers, which I don't think is really even a sleeper But like the acrylite like a student model snare and then it becomes commonplace and everyone uses them Everyone has one and it's a good snare, but it's It's risen above the sleeper. It's which yeah, but for a long time it was slummin How about the black galaxy the black relight? Yes. Yeah, I've I've recorded as an engineer I've recorded a drummer playing those and They're great. I think they're super cool looking too super cool looking um I had one here. This was one that kind of cracked my skull open and it bothered me. I still have insomnia um I went out one of the first nice kits I bought. I bought like a Yamaha Maple custom actually from Stephanie eulenberg Who you know plays these played for decades with kid rock, but before she had that gig And then she went to gratch and yeah before she had that gig She was from Cleveland. I was from Cleveland and uh, you know, she I bought this kit from her It was a Yamaha maple custom. It had gold hardware. I paid. I don't know three grand or something like that It must be good because I played three grand I paid three, you know, and I'll never forget I bought This is like in the mid 90s. I bought For $200 a Yamaha stage custom That's made out of luan And yeah, I think you know thrown away Dixie cups And but those struck a chord with people dude. I mean they yeah, it still haunts me I had both of them set up the maple custom that's three grand with gold hardware And the stage custom I bought for 200 dollars and it had pinstripes on it and now it I it haunted me. I was like They sound different. I get it. They sound different But I don't know if I'd say the maple custom sounds better That they kind of messed me up a little bit and I was like, well, I could have saved $2,800 So but we all want to buy the like I mean, I I've always had the dream as a kid growing up of like I want and I must have a dw set. But yeah, sometimes it's like that doesn't mean it's better than the You know gretch the catalina mod kit that I had at the time Catalina the catalina kit is I feel like the catalina kits the you know the satin noir elephant in the room Feel like it sounds really good And you're like, I don't know. I must have something in my ears Let me I'm sure it sounds like crap if I listen again But I even found out as I was looking through one of the like the famous sold I have it here the reproduction But the old 1943 or so gretch catalog that they reproduced where And there's catalina's back then I didn't realize that that that model goes back 80 years where even that made it feel even cooler to me. I was like, okay, that is it's a heritage kind of brand but I'm assuming it's named for catalina island right off the coast of You know, los angeles where they used to have that famous ballroom out there Yeah, and a lot of like swing and that kind of stuff would uh, sure that's fascinating There's there's a whole nother show you go, you know, that things that are named after places Yes, the the Ludwig the new yorker the Ludwig new yorker. Yeah Yeah Okay, so Yamaha stuff those those really though those those stage costumes are a great one. Um, they're they're I think they're metal series from the 90s Like I have a secret fantasy Where I buy for $99 a yamaha steel snare And I you know I sell everything else and I just play a yamaha steel snare Because that's quite the fantasy Yeah, I know that's riveting. I mean, you know, yes, you move to la and this is this sort of thing that happens You really jump off the deep end So yeah, no it that I think steel is one of those a lot of people are like, oh, it's just steel I hear that all the time. Yeah, but it's just steel I think that's a fantastic Alloy to make snare drums out of You know what the chad smith snare the pearl chad smith snare, which they sold a gazillion of them and they were like 150 bucks No, I understand. It's not a tomabel brass You know, it's but it's good. I remember playing that when I worked at guitar center and I would sit there and play it I was like, damn, this is a Good, it's just a nice snare drum. It just sounds good. It was like exactly I actually ran into chad smith at a parking lot in beverly hills And I talked to him about that And I was I did yeah, I was like God that that signature snare drum you have is really really great He's like, thank you so much. Yeah, I'm sure he was really he was like, that's awesome. Get away from me. No Actually, he was really kind and really get out of my bushes We had parking lot in los angeles. Did you pay to get in here? Yeah Um, I mean signature models alone. I find I've always had that kind of like You know, oh, I don't want to pay 300 bucks for someone's signature model But there's there's a whole lot of people who want the josh done or whatever from 21 pilots. Yeah Signature snare where there's some people want it. Some people don't What's your thoughts on signature model? You know, I was talking about this with a buddy of mine who's in the industry and he said People don't want to play Gear with someone else's name on it you know, they um For whatever reason either I mean, I guess at some point in our lives it's inspiring But then at some other point you're like, no man, that's not me. I want my name on it so My buddy was saying that they don't sell well signature items don't Normally sell well. There are a few exceptions But uh, he was saying that um, it's they frequently put them out there to Uh, you know a placate or appease the artist And uh, but other people don't really buy them and I think that's a perfect place to go You know sleeper gear safari hunting The carl allen ride Fantastic. Do I had it? Does anybody see that blue gretch vinycala euda signature? Hmm. I mean they make it they make it now Yeah, I don't I don't really see him anywhere, but I think that would be a cool drop I mean whether you're a huge viny fan or not just you know Just listen the paul lime yamaha paul lime You know the uh, the manu kache, which was like a black beauty on steroids Uh, if you get the earlier version, um, the garibaldi the blue analog anodized Yamaha garibaldi was a Fantastic drum too. Um, especially to get the earlier ones So yeah, that's fascinating. I mean and drums are a little bit more like You know from from the audience you can't really tell if you're a guitarist up there and you're playing a zack wild You know the the rings on a guitar. That's pretty obvious that that's a zack wild edition guitar Right a snare drum is not you're probably the only one who notices at that Yeah, no, I mean, I mean, so it's not as glaring that it's like, oh, I've got Like no, it's not an eddie van halen signature guitar I mean, there's one guy in the corner that you need to somehow denigrate When he comes up to you after the gig and you go like, oh, you don't know about that Yeah, exactly. Yeah, we gotta get out of my green room We got to be better than that guy. Yeah, you have to be but really yeah drums are kind of that's no one's no one's going to care either way and you know But I do think it's cool that yes, there's the signature Mass produced snares, whatever there's you know, love them or hate them But it's cool though when they do like the they release 50 Replica kits for like neal or like lars those pulling some huge money. That's a different That's different that is and that's we talk about that that's kind of like a celebration You know and and there's different ways or different Reasons to buy gear, you know, I have talk about a sleeper thing. I have a I have a dw 7000 pedal I think I got it for 50 bucks. I leave it in my trunk Like if you come and you want to steal my catalytic converter, you can also get a dw 7000 If you open the trunk you just leave it in there because it's 50 bucks. It works. It's fantastic That's one type of gear acquisition another is the neal kit Or you know, they have that's 30 000 dollars or yeah, it's 30 000. That's a whole different thing that you don't want to leave that in your trunk No, yeah, that is you're celebrating, you know an illustrious history of the company and obviously the artist and everything that That represents and the graphics on that kit were incredible. They had all the albums Yeah, yeah, totally totally different thing No, exactly and another one kind of going along with you saying the dw 7000 is is uh, so friend of the show Who's been on chris georgenus who did an episode on gigging drummer survival guide, which was cool, but he turned me on to um The dixon gear which actually led to me getting a dixon little rumor kit Which I keep in my living room the dixon hardware He turned me on to it is really good And the pedal is great and it's not very expensive right so as far as modern getting it new You know go on their website and order it. I am a fan of uh dixon. Oh great I'm not that that I mean it's something that it kind of you wouldn't necessarily expect it. You're saving money It's totally usable. You learn Yeah, you know and then you know you get to you get to pull out the the kind of almost like the reverse Where the guy goes what pedal is that what's all your hardware and you go Someday kid someday you'll understand This guy's like why do I keep coming up to this guy? Yeah, but but I but I mean I also have like my I have my three Or two or three dw 5000 pedals that are my go-to that I use or iron cobras But on the drum set that's downstairs to mess around with I would use the dixon anywhere, but I I love the 5000s. I love all this but um But but yeah, exactly the 5000s incredible Yeah, it's and it's still go. I have one now With all the upgrades all the other stuff. I just have a 5000 There's an episode about the history of the 5000 with uh, Vincent Ward that I recommend people check out because that goes back to camco right all that stuff which camco talked about the another opposite of sleeper brand where the value is enormous They've exploded they're priced out of being able to get them. Yeah, but see that's what's fascinating. Why did that happen? I mean guys paid attention to their ears And they're great. Yeah, but yeah, it's beyond that it's beyond that for sure it is but you know, I would say rogers Rogers are it's they're not sleeper gear, but it might be snoozer gear But you know people are hitting the snooze button on it because you there are all sorts of rod I mean, I got mine, you know right here and I have a couple of them. They sound phenomenal Well rogers is and I mean I the the rogers guys Uh po anthony jeff burk all the guys there there's the rogers group and there's the shields classic drum show Which is in ohio which is coming up soon is in april is a rogers drum show The passion of those guys who play rogers and collect it is Incredible where I think they like they probably like where it's at the collectability because if it if it blows up even more then you lose the like ability to even buy them but Anyway, just the rogers has such a good community But they're they're they're the big four rogers grinch luddwig slingerlin But you know are people like if you have like a big r You know, nobody pays any attempt. They you know, you hear the sentence like oh, but it's a big r Listen, and I get it. I get it. It's not as sexy. It's not as cool. I get it But I do I think it's worth having fun with and goofing around and playing and maybe gigging with absolutely I I had one and it was I played a bunch of gigs with it. It was a lot of fun And and then I sold it Yeah, so yeah, which is fun. Yeah, which is really fun and it spreads to other people But uh, all right, what else you got on your list there? Well, I'd say solid shell snares the pearl solid shell If they made it like 20 years ago, they might have one now I'm talking about the one that came out in the late 90s the early 2000s There's a pearl solid shell. They didn't have re-rings and it kind of like slid under I don't I think that was a marketing I don't know. They maybe didn't market it that well or people didn't really know Um, that's a great one. Obviously with pearl like those jupiters. That's kind of a You know the chrome over brass ones basically That you see from the 70s. Those are semi famous now A lot of people don't know those uh, those tomah solid shells are fantastic drums. You see them every once in a while I asked uh, Dave Elich just I was like, hey, so why do you like this? He goes It pretty much does everything. It's it does it quiet. It does it loud. It's full bodied And he's like I have not owned one that sounds bad So interesting. It's a very thin shell mario big fan of that as well. I think the early craviados I said the last time I was on here. I don't think the earlier craviados Like from the 90s the dw craviados from the 90s late 90s early 2000s They don't I think they're undervalued because the the the woods 25 years old now and it sounds really great Yeah, it just maybe that's part of the Ludwig pioneer thing as those snares have had time to like Evolve and keep growing and yeah Um, there was I had a wuhan kneel or knurled snare Is this wuhan? Yeah, I don't know you pick it up. It weighs like 15 20 pounds and it said wuhan in terrible font That yeah, it's just you're like no one's going to touch this And it just looked goofy and it sounded phenomenal. I owned it for I couldn't I I eventually sold it but I owned it for like two or three years and used it It was never heard of a wuhan. It was a wuhan the emerald snare if you can find them um You know, I would say dw snares guitar center put out This series It was kind of a made for guitar center series maybe about 15 years ago It was a birch x ply an x ply birch And I owned like 15 of them and I loved them Huh, and I never really saw them outside a guitar center. They also made a seven by 13 I think it was an x ply maple You just kind of see them out there floating around And occasionally and I I have no idea why the x ply birch was my favorite dw I mean, I guess that's interesting. I guess I like birch Yeah, it just it was a little bit more contained sometimes dw snares can kind of ring or be a little a little Tony a little bit if you know, so the birch kind of chilled that out It was really nice Is there any type of wood that you think is the sleeper of woods? I think the like the the crappy luan You know the crappy mahogany. I mean, I don't There's so many like a lot of those 60s, you know that you see them the japanese the japanese gets the m i j you know the the any of those Kits they always sound great Um, it's kind of a weird throwaway plywood And I I guess I just really like the tone of that I do too the kind of poplar. Yeah It's a little darker. Maybe it decays a little faster It doesn't have the resonance and you know, which is cool except when you take that into the studio The first thing everybody does is they moon gel it You know the producer's like, oh my god, is that an all maple shell with bridge lugs get that out of here Get the tape Yeah, so I mean with that in mind. I do like birch So max maximum resonance is like a selling point But not if you're talking to an engineer No, there's there's different instances where you there would be the studio There would be gigging live then there would be like Your drum room which are like three different hundred percent Three different places. So you just need to buy more gear It sounds like and the best way to do that is with sleeper gear that's not being priced out of You know beyond anyone's, you know means to be able to afford and and yeah exactly like we're talking about You can save money. You can turn it around you learn and sometimes you win You know, you're kind of like you find the hundred dollar bill on the ground and you're like Is no one picking this up Yeah, that's how I you know, and I'm like, I'm gonna get these These or it's like is this a trick or am I am I do am I dumb because I like this? Am I dumb because I like this? Yeah, I got the green color. It honestly takes, you know Well, and and it's stuff like that it takes self-confidence. I think to be able to stand out and say no, I like this Whatever blank signature snare drum that everyone else dismisses or even even like the the rise of using rototoms More and more on your drum set. I think that's like or putting north drums on things Which we all know those are super cool But or even using like a Darwin drum set or something or quarter quarter exactly It's a perfect example the quarter Some of those fives they have like a really tight tone buddy rich play one for a while if you want that mess with that You're gonna play differently Yeah, I think I think how you said it is the perfect You know that's sort of a nice Tie in there where you just go sure am I dumb for liking this? Go ahead and gamble That's the message today Take the gamble and enjoy it and there is no losing No, I mean really the answer is no, you're not dumb for liking it right like if you like whatever size or symbol or um Like I used a 12 inch pork pie It was right when you said everyone was using small snares. I had a 12 inch or 13 I think it was a 12 by 5 pork pie snare right off the racket guitar center 2002 I was in that it was I mean I was 12 years old when I bought it But it was right in that time where it was like It's such a small snare and I cranked it but it was like that's what every that's that time That's early 2000s. It was like it was perfect for then And now I look back and I go god, why did I play such a small snare? But I liked it and I think it was cool and I'm sure now it doesn't have much value I mean, but everything bill from pork pie touches. I think is is very cool. He's fantastic Yeah, I've always my dream is to have a full You know tim alexander looking Brain like a primus looking pork pie kit that has always been my dream someday. It'll happen Well, I think I think that's a more colorful dream than I just want a yamaha steel snare Yeah, so kudos to you Yeah, there's no dumb dreams. That's that's another thing Appreciate that. I needed to hear that this morning Yes, um, what's the most recent recent thing that you've posted on hazel should that you're like Super excited about okay. I had if tony vertarosa vfx 19 inch. It's well, uh Where is it? We're right here. I had it. It's just nuts. Is it for everybody and everything? No But hey, it is a signature and I am not tony vertarosa So but it's okay. I'm all right with that. Yes. It's all right. It's got this sort of iridescent Color to it. It's very dry. It's got a great bell. You know if you want something washi, that's not it But go buy something washi and then have this and uh, you know Then go eat a hamburger somewhere It's it's it's it's fun in that order in that order. Yeah, and that's something that was pretty cool It's it's great attack. It's a 19. So it's like the the response is really quick and it dies Very quickly. So it's great for you know, articulate sticking And fast patterns and like, you know drum and bass and that kind of stuff But that's the whole point. It's not just drum and bass if you're like a metal guy and you want to like diga diga diga diga I just double bass and a bell That's killer. This is sort of not related but it's it's uh, I had a situation where I got a penguin or penguin You however you say a brazilian snare drum So I had a longtime friend of the show alfonso penne pina. Sorry alfonso. It's been a while since I've pronounced your last name but um So long story short, we were talking and then he was coming to america and he said hey, you should check out like What is the website? It's it's in in over there. It's like they're craigslist. I think yeah so penguin drums were like Really good Ludwig copies and I don't have it with me right now because I'm it's in my basement because I moved everything down to Do this attic renovation, but anyway, awesome drum. I think it's brazilian pink cedar on the inside has an incredible like marbly looking like 60s 70s Ludwig yellow. We kind of finish I think I ended up paying him total us like 150 dollars Now he flew from brazil to america and I think he held it on his lap So See that that's it. There's it. Yeah, that's that's the story penguin is worth checking out I don't really think you can get him here. I want to do a um episode about him, but Really, there's translation issues with stuff like sure. Well odory I mean odory another very interesting stuff with the Just a different take a different look different woods. Just kind of cool Yeah, very cool. Yeah, so once you leave your you know, the american european area You can find some even cooler stuff even one in canada. There's awesome stuff Well, it's a tambourine in italy, you know that that dude had kits He had snares and they kind of had a he had the snares that were Sort of like a polygon a little bit. They were sort of like a it was like his own version of a stave It was like panels. Yeah, and it's kind of yeah, just a perfect example of something different I remember the hardware was unique The the hoops were you had a different type of uh finish on them one of the ones I had Yeah, so maybe that's an episode someday that we do is like weird shaped drums. I would love staccato drums north drums Uh, and so on and so tricks on tricks on there you go. There's enough for an episode there Or so like the towels drums I don't think I know that house drums are kind of uh I would I don't know if I mean they are mostly at least cylindrical, but they're sort of non traditional the sort of uh Yeah, they could kind of like a casket. I mean, I'm sure somebody wants to see tv. Yeah unique tv radio Yeah, yeah, yeah the rimo mando That one's ringing a bell But we'll do something on that because again i'm and we'll present we'll do our research and do that one next because I Jerry I enjoy having you on the show because of your your immense knowledge And I know people like having you here too because of uh, how much you've learned through hazel should from having Your hands on so many different things So as we wrap up you want to kind of tell people where they can find you and um and all that good, certainly um Well hazel should.com is is my website where I have everything, you know for sale I only have about half of the items up there right now. I mean I have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of symbols uh for sale um I get new stuff every day kind of goes up. It's you know and stuff sells goes more goes right back up I'm on youtube. I have a hazel should channel and I would encourage people um Just to go there and and just peruse. There's thousands of videos up there of all sorts of different symbols Now a lot of them. I don't have anymore But it doesn't matter you get to hear them. You can still hear it. Yeah, you just hear it and you know, maybe you find something that uh on there that uh You know, you're like, hey, I'm going to look for one of those that looks interesting Um, I'm on instagram hazel should I put new offerings all the time? I try and keep that sort of uh, you know kind of fun and light and some rare things prototypes There's like a you know, here's a zildjum prototype. That's like the rarities Dark thin so that was something that was limited, you know on on on instagram I promote things like that and it just have fun with it and it's entertaining. Yeah Yeah, it's it's I mean and I would say finally. I mean, you know Maybe use the list we discussed today some of these examples is just As a springboard to find your own You know, there's by again by no means exhaustive or anything I think there's the sleeper symbols can be you know add to the list or comment or if if anybody wants to Reach me or contact me. They can you know, two one six five seven seven seven five five two You can text me. Uh, you can call me leave a message if you if you have any questions about what we discussed today That's fine. So sure. Yep. Very accessible and um, we'll be sure to have you back again So I think people know this from the description, but it's haz e l s h o u l d You'll find him everywhere. Um, so jerry, I appreciate you taking the time to do this an awesome topic idea Which I appreciate you coming up with because that's how I just think it's good to have something This is what we're going to talk about we talk about it. We get it in there and then people can comment They're sleeper. I think everyone probably has at least one even if it's a Wuhan even if it's a Some certain I like a six inch, you know a custom splash speaking from experience. I used to love that That little tiny splash and you weren't dumb for liking it I was not dumb for liking that it's taken 20 years to hear that but um So, uh, anyway, jerry, I appreciate you being here man And thank you so much for your time and uh, and I'm we'll do it again Absolutely with a weird shape drama It is my pleasure being here and you provide such a wonderful service to the entire drama community All over the world. So thank you for having me and on behalf of all the listeners, of course We love the show. Thank you jerry