 Welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I'm joined by Dan Garza who's a contributor to the piste page on symbol dot wiki Dan welcome to the podcast Thanks for having me. Yeah, man. Piste is Has been on my list for so long of such an important episode to do because I've done some of the other symbol companies and I have gotten a lot of Request for this and I'm glad to have you who is so knowledgeable about it And I will tell you I have a piste sticker that hasn't been peeled that's sitting in front of me on my desk so I'm kind of getting the the You know piste vibes coming from this the logo looking right at me right now You're you're feeling it. You're feeling the the piste-ness. I'm feeling the piste-ness. Yeah well before we start so I Want to because we have a lot to cover and this is just you have done extensive research Which I just love before we start. I'm gonna give a shout out to a couple people first of all Rafael Zimmerman who I believe is in Switzerland very close to the piste Factory he has had direct contact with the piste folks trying to help me set up an episode which didn't quite happen Exactly, you know, this has been going on for a year or two and then Tim shahady sorry, Tim if I miss pronounce your name who works with piste and we were talking about doing an episode and Then Dan and I kind of linked up and here when I were doing this and then also Steve black Who does the he created symbol dot wiki and has done the whole? Zilgin timeline and it's just a master of all that stuff So thank you to Steve and then a big. Thank you I'm sure you'll agree Dan for all those but to Fritz Stegger of drum house Freiberg in Germany And most people who listen to the show a lot will remember that Fritz has been on the show and did a really cool episode about I think it was about it was like USA versus Europe with drumming was like that something like that with the title So you'll hear Dan refer a lot to Fritz today because Fritz was like Has a vast knowledge of of piste and a lot of things, but especially piste so Yeah, Dan, why don't we hop in here and we start at the very beginning of The history of piste and I'll let you take it away Okay, so again like you said I have to my my tip my hat the Fritz he in the last week or so I've had contact with them and had a Meeting with them in valuable information He did I just want to preface this by Fritz did an interview with Robert piste in 2006 a lot of this information is Relayed from that interview So to start with The word piste means shine in Estonian and that's and if you look at the formula 602 logo you see that with the classic Turkish Crescent moon and star you'll see the rays coming off the star. So I interpret that as piste's Adding to that classic Turkish logo The shine part. Yeah, the first piste Well, I refer to my guess is I would say grandfather piste that would be macael tea piste and He I Believe had a music shop. He was born in Estonia. So he's Estonian But he moved to st. Petersburg and He had a publishing business and he repaired musical instruments And I believe he also was the one who started the symbol making During World War one there was the Russian Revolution where basically that the Communists took over and That was the first upheaval in the piste timeline where they had to leave so By that time it would have been Mikhail Thomas or grandfather and then father piste who would be Mikhail M Gotcha, you know, and I just want to throw this out there because like I love when there's Some parallels and to the other big company. We'll just you know, there's no point in dancing around it to Zilgin where I believe they in 1905 there was like the Armenian I think Genocide where where they had to then leave and move to America So I think and then it's a family business and the last name is the name of the company. It's just there's a lot of parallels To some of these and it's just it's it's interesting. It is so his last name is piste, which means shine And that applies to symbols, you know what I mean? Is that just sort of a coincidence or like? That's it's just an interesting last name to have and then become a symbol maker I noticed that there are a lot of parallels between the zilgin family and the piste family Especially with the two brothers, which obviously we'll get into later Robert and tumas which are virtual almost almost carbon copies of Armand and Robert Zilgin Grandfather piste move the family back to Estonia Now if I back up McKellen, which would be father piste. He was born in Russia So so this was a Russian speaking family and They moved back to Estonia and that's where Robert and two and tumas were born Robert was born in 1932 and tumas the younger brother was born in 1939 So they grew up speaking both Estonian and Russian And this is in the 30s now historically in the 30s after World War one There was an enormous depression in Germany and and in northern Europe after the war So things obviously were were pretty tough Yeah, and from reading this interview and studying the history of piste this phrase kept coming to mind and that was piste found a way That's so true. I mean, that's not at the friendliest Region to live in at that point in time. So to find a way. I mean, that's pretty that's a really cool quote So this this brings us up to The beginning of World War two which in Europe was in 1939 so Estonia is Just south of Finland it shares a border with Finland It's a very very northern part of Europe and it shares its eastern border with Russia So I don't know a lot about the history of Estonia, but I know that there's a lot of Conflict with Russia and Russia taken over Estonia claim it as part of their their territory and whatnot so Again the Pisces family was forced to flee and move west and again piste found a way and that was They moved to Poland now Poland in 1939 was invaded by the Germans. So they were living in and 1940 in Poland that was German occupied. So now they had to speak German and And At this time, you know Robert was very young He was eight years old and just entering school and he didn't speak English one of the things that you mentioned in his interview With Fritz is the first words he learned in German in school was how Hitler. Oh my god So and and they were forbidden especially from speaking Russian and His parents would scold him because his native tongue was Russian and Estonian You know, he would speak in Russian in the house and they would scold him say no no no You have to speak in German. Don't use your your native tongue. You can't use those languages Unbelievable so Robert and his interview states that that actually affected him a lot Psychologically and really drove him to be very introverted. He's a very introverted quiet person Tumas for whatever reason, you know, he was much younger. He was seven years younger than Robert He was exact opposite. He was an extroverted. He was very extroverted, you know, very friendly very open You'll see this with the history of the company the two roles that the brothers took are Polar opposites Yeah So to so if to continue Again feisty found a way That now we're at the point where Father feisty, that's Mikhail and because grandfather had passed away in 1930 So father feisty Mikhail M again set up a shop During the war, but I mean there was virtually no materials and and they were working with brass this whole time That that's all there was in Europe So from the very beginning when they built symbols They were they were made from brass and the symbols would typically be used for like, you know Brass bands and like military use or what were they? Yeah And that's actually how grandfather feisty originally started was with the Russian military the czarist guard was building symbols for him I also might mention that that There's also a note here that in 1930 feisty started to offer And then this is this is in Robert's Interview in 1930 feisty started offering symbols by quote-unquote type And he says in his interview that at that time when you bought Turkish symbols you bought them by weight in other words in other words, they weren't labeled a Particular type You bought a 20th symbol and they would weigh it and depending on how much the symbol weighed That's how much you would pay for it. Oh wow So per gram or whatever as opposed to it being a a crash or a ride, which of course I know those are more modern terms But like it would there was no classification like like anything like that. It was just size and weight That's correct. Wow. That's correct. Cool. Very different. So so feisty was the first one to actually classify symbols and What they found was that Orchestras tended to like heavier symbols With longer decay and feisty called those and this is a translation So I don't know. I'm assuming this is this is a literal translation. They referred to him as gong symbols And he mentions that a dance orchestras What she refers to which he says used the quote-unquote Charleston style of music now remember this is You know early 1930 So this is really like right at the beginning of and I'm not a musical historian, but Really like right at the beginning or right before Big band music and when you think of the 20s you think of flappers flapper girls and you know The type of music they had in the 20s and is very different than what you had in the 30s with big band music Especially when you get to the second half of the 30s. Yeah now another parallel at the same time I don't know the exact dates But I know Zildjans started working with Jean Krupa some other drummers some early pioneers And they were developing symbols specifically for big band music and that's where you get crash Ride, you know, the low-boy high hat all that type of stuff Well in Europe You know feisty was Doing this their own thing basically at the same time Robert says that at that the the dance bands or dance workers is wanted sibilant sounds which Means they wanted sizzle symbols, which are symbols with rivets. So they I've got a 1950 catalog and and they still use the same nomenclature and they have their symbol sizzle symbols And then they also have what they for is to Charleston symbols and those were high hats. Yeah And they look very funny because the highest have these huge bells on them. I mean a normal sized bell Yeah, and like a little bit of cymbal to actually play on Mostly bell things are changing obviously along the way Obviously jazz had a big influence on everyone, but I think that that was a very progressive Time there. I mean so so just remind me now on the timeline. Where where are we because we're you know, they're now They're officially so they're still in Poland. Is that correct? Yeah, so we're basically in the middle of World War two got it okay so World War two ends and Once again Poland falls behind the iron curtain and Anybody I should say older listeners who grew up during the Cold War know exactly what I mean What you know where the iron curtain was and what countries felt fell behind it? Mm-hmm, so Poland would became part of the Soviet Union And and once again the Pisces the Pisces family had to flee they became refugees again so they were placed basically as And you know the current political climate where there's a lot of Articles in the news about refugees to one and so we're pretty familiar right now. Yeah with refugees, right? Yeah, well That was the Pisces family again for the second time So they were they were placed quote-unquote in Northern Germany, there's a peninsula north of Hamburg, which is really famous because that's where the Beatles played a cavern club They were in the very northern part of Germany that that shares a border with Denmark so they were basically placed there and After World War two Germany was devastated. So there was nothing. I mean, they had they they had no bridges They had no railroads, you know, they had you know, would they talk about infrastructure today? All of Germany's infrastructure was destroyed all their factories are destroyed everything. Yeah, so there was no materials and You know Robert, you know by then is He would have been Let me see 30 he would have been in this he would have been a teenager You know 1945 1946 With what did happen is I'm sure it's probably part of the Marshall plan of rebuilding Germany. They were given a small amount of money and And this according to Robert's in 1948 and this was during what he called the currency reform, which I'm assuming that that the the the German Reich marks were changed to just the Deutsche mark. Yeah, this is a guess, but this is my assumption. Yeah, it's almost like a Civil war like Confederate currency where it's yes, let's maybe change that. Yes, get on a unified Yes, I think wow So so they got a small amount of money and with that Father Piste was able to buy some brass and Start making symbols again And at this point Robert was old enough that he started to work with his father Yeah, so he was already he was starting to learn that the symbol train Man, that's so interesting because they had a it's it's it's neat that they have a very specific Skill, I mean, it's it's like being a baker or like whatever, but like this is there. It's obviously a little more cost Prohibitive to build a symbol factory that like building getting into something else like you know, that's You know, I don't know something something less big but It's neat that Germany was looking at Giving them like an influx of cash. I'll be it. I'm not sure how much it was Well, it Robert says in an interview was a hundred and fifty marks Wow, that doesn't seem like a lot exactly Exactly and and and just to be clear When we're talking about civil production, we're talking about one or two guys in a room hammering out symbols. Hmm That was Piste Piste always found a way but that was Piste and that's how that's how they functioned Really for the first half of the 20th century. They were very small Maybe a couple workers a couple of employees or workers at it that helped with the hammering of symbols Because remember back then everything was hammered by hand even the bells. Oh, yeah Yeah, no, all right. So, you know side question Were they also doing any of the like music store like distribution type stuff? That they had done early on or were they just you know, we're gonna stick with this or making any other kinds of instruments that you know of Yes, and I'm glad you brought that up because I missed it completely Father Piste, I believe was the one who started making gongs And I this and this may have happened. I don't have to look it up again may have happened before World War two So he did have contacts. He was selling and distributing Internationally throughout Europe. Gotcha. I don't know if they ever came to the USA. I mean it is possible in very small quantities What what I can tell you which is which is very I'll have to I don't know if Fritz knows any more about it But I'll definitely a pick is brand about it. Sure. Yeah, and actually real quick Can you clarify for me because there's multiple macaels which macael is father and which macael is grandfather? So grandfather is macael tea and he's out of the picture very early. He passed away in 1930. Okay, got it So, okay, that makes sense. So he's macael tumis piste and that's He's out of the picture that he's just yeah Okay, yeah by night by 1930 by the time they were back in Estonia He had passed away. Okay. So so macael in our father piste because he's Robert tumis's father macael in this is the one who Who carried the company for for a substantial amount of time got it and he's the one who really carried the company through the most Difficult times which was what the end of World War one and through World War two and Settle in the Germany. Okay, and he did establish Gong-making and that did make them very famous. I mean, it's just For my limited knowledge the only other place that you could Buy gongs from would be from Asia. Yeah from China Wow, so they're the European gong maker as opposed to actually going to Let's say China and getting and then shipping it over which would be unbelievable that cost-wise So, okay. Good to know. So shortly after Piste got their their their money from From the new German government and they started a production again Father piste, macael m got really sick. It was in the hospital and from what I'm Trying to perceive from from the interview and look like he Didn't make a full recovery the doctor said something to the fact that they didn't expect And to make a full recovery. I don't know what the illness was but it was obviously substantial Robert says that he had dropped out of school. He was 17 and that's when He started making symbols full-time. So his father was still there. This this would have been 49 His father was still there, but I have a feeling that he he Maybe took a little bit more of a backseat and Robert Started to really come to the fore as far as far as and again, we're probably talking about You know a little tiny shop with two or three people Making making gongs and symbols, you know, piste was very small but again Piste found a way. Yeah, and you know in 49 I feel like and I hope I'm not generalizing or making an assumption here But I feel like in 1949 when you're 17 is different than being 17 years old in 2021 your post war I mean, there's people who could have like entire families when they were 17 years old and and are married with kids You know what? I mean like it's it's a different So I feel like he had to be kind of a little bit more grown up than your average 17 year old because of his life of moving around and just being a refugee and all that so so I feel like he was From what I've heard, you know, let's say emotionally ready to like step in and and be in the business Yeah, at that at the hardship definitely hardens you and they they you know, I don't want to You know, I don't want to be too to exaggerate it But when I read about their their history, especially the early history what I see is a lot of hardship. Yeah Yeah, yeah, and and robert at one point in the interview says we we we survive because we learn how to make something out of nothing Yeah, I mean that there's such a like metaphor there about you just hammer the hell out of it until it becomes something beautiful like this hardened metal and It finds a way it's that statement really covers a lot of piste's ideology because They had to do with less. They had to make symbols. I mean one of the big things was that For decades they made symbols out of nickel silver and brass because if that's all they what there was so They're able to and and and we'll touch on this later because this is actually really really important They were able to Maximize the sound potential of these alloys which was not very good Especially brass, but nickel silver when you look at old piste nickel silver symbols They're all fully hammered. They're all laid like Like a zilgin would be I mean they put the work And the technique and the effort in to get the best sound possible out of a mediocre sounding alloy Which that's kind of the whole thing about well, I For people listening who are thinking that we're gonna obviously talk about the whole b8 thing where That's kind of the the key to all that is like using what you have and I want to throw it out now now that like I am very not knowledgeable about different metals and the sounds they make and all this stuff So it's really cool to hear about that about but It sounds like whatever metal they had uh They could use those metals and I wonder if you said brass and nickel nickel silver was a very yeah, it's it's uh known as known as ns 12 because it contains contains 12 nickel About 65 copper and the rest is zinc Yeah, it's easy to spot because it's very steely looking. It's very white With the lower copper content. There's no yellowish or or orange just tint to it It's completely silver and my understanding is that it was actually used for silverware in Germany But if you if you look at pd you'll see that the history of it goes way back they used it for jewelry And for silverware, I mean it's very popular in Germany So it was a very common alloy and it seems like it would be less used for like Warfare and items that were on the battlefield because I'm assuming that's what the metal shortage is from obviously is because It wasn't being used to make guns or you know tanks or something Now now during the war during during the uh, uh, the thirties and the forties. Pisces was only working with brass My understanding is nickel server came in I believe in the late forties early fifties and I believe that would have been uh with the stampuels series and I know we kind of skipped ahead and and and didn't go over the series but Father Pisces is the one who who created the the the first name series that we know of which is the stampuels which is a take on The name istanbul And you'll see pisces did that a couple times. They also did that with stan opal Which is a take on Constantinople. Yeah And even zilco, which they came out during this time I'm sure had some sort of reference to zilgins or or zil zilcian or zilcan Yep, all those Right. Yeah, and let's throw it out there now because again people are probably thinking it it's zil ko For pisty as opposed to zil co, which is the whole Uh, ziljun. Yeah, yes now now I see I I've looked at I've looked at some loaded with catalogs and I saw Listed in a lower catalog. I believe in 49 Was the first listing for ziljin zilcos Now piscy list 1947 as them as is when they came out with their their zilco Now I I don't think that there's any kind of I think it was just happenstance. I really don't know how they end up with the same name But one of the things that piscy does claims that they were the first symbol company to come out with two different lines of symbols and others a lower entry level line Is their premiere line so the stand bull was their Was their top line or top of the line and then the zilco was their more affordable entry level line. Hmm interesting which Yeah, I mean it's it makes sense to do that, but so then obviously what you're saying is before that it would just be Here is a symbol. Here's our symbol that we have um, and were they On this timeline, do you know when they may be switched from selling it just by weight And size or did it Kind of start to get gent like like labeled as particular symbols in the jazz, you know Oh, you mentioned that earlier with the jazz era of yeah, yeah, okay So so piscy started yes piscy started to label their symbols Give them actual names uh back in 1930 got it. Okay So so this is actually I believe even even before they had created the stand bull series Okay, which which is listed as as being created in 1932. I could have pretty much coincided. I mean This is Yeah, again when you think about this Why is the piscy history so murky? Well That's because they're refugees. I mean imagine Setting up a shop somewhere and working for four or five years and then basically Maybe having a few days Notice that you have to leave god and and and they most likely abandoned pretty much everything You know, I did you know, I mean They probably were able to carry their hammers with them, you know in a few it's a tools but Probably whatever documentation they had was lost, you know, and that would make a lot of sense of why it was so hard to track down Uh, especially the pre-war history. Yeah, which I Think this is like we're getting a bunch of information here though So all right. So we're at Stamble and Zilco, which it's interesting that to hear that the Zilco with a K Is in the catalog at least pre-dating, but at all like you said it could be a serendipitous kind of Which, you know, you got to look at it too. It's like it's Maybe predates that but the Zill and the Stamble is obviously referring back to the other company or that That region so it's sort of just this Uh, because I guess that would obviously be as we all know because When you think symbol you think turkey or you think yes china or you know, there's a lot of regions that do them But obviously they're trying to play on the um popularity of that region at that point Yeah, and pasty has always used the star and crescent moon um and Their logos for all the series up until recently let's say up until about the last 20 years Um, you'll find it in the 2002 you'll find it in the 505 the 404 You'll find it in the sound creations obviously in the 602's You'll find it in the Dixie Stamble standard Stenopoul standard, I mean I mean it to me. I know it's obviously like the ottoman kind of like all that stuff, but it just sort of like is like a I don't know it just reads to me as like a symbol if that makes sense Like it's just like the traditional this is just the stamp. I don't know. I mean, what's your thoughts on the use of that It's it's it's a it's a recognition of Of their use in this icon because that's the icon that symbolizes symbol making and the center of symbol making is in turkey You know and and the star and crescent moon I I did I looked it up on wikipedia and that Was part of the ottoman empire and obviously it's on the turkish flag as well If you look at the turkish flag But that's a symbol of the ottoman empire that goes back four five six hundred years or more Yeah, so it's been around a long time. So yeah, uh, picey was basically saying hey You know in the very beginning of their history they they talk about or robert talked about How they decided to to to be grandfather picey decided to make symbols and the quote-unquote turkish style Not the chinese style right and we know that we we all being drummers know the difference between the two So it only makes sense that they would use that that that icon to reference that these are symbols made in the turkish style Yeah, no, absolutely. So Um, all right. Well, then let's chug forward here because there's obviously so much of of picey to cover. So All right, we have the two brands robert is running the show. Um, How's everything going business wise? I mean it seems like they've they're they're selling them That's the most important thing is people are buying these right Yes, and and they they are in northern germany Um, the the the shop that they they set up Uh was was close. I I'd have to look at the name and pronounce it names are really difficult Yeah, but it was very close to where they originally were settled after world war two now That factory that they started after world war two That's still there and picey still produces symbols out of that And that's the only location where they produce gongs Wow, and what happened was mclm father picey um Was still running the company but you could see from robert's interview how robert became more and more involved the next next big step was They started to press bells into the symbols instead of harrowing them And this would have been Right around 1950 I would say and This was quickly followed up by and this is father picey mclm He found a hammering machine or he bought one And he worked with robert and says hey, let's try this machine Let's try to machine hammer the symbols instead of hand hammering them now What they were doing is when you make a symbol traditionally and you hammer the symbol out You're actually shaping the bow or the curve of the symbol itself That's that's one of the main reasons why you're hammering obviously hammering has a huge effect on the sound But the primary function is to create the shape of the symbol and that's the bow or the curve And modern symbol making They're all stamped by all the major manufacturers except for picey Still uses the exact same technique That they started in 1952 and that's when father picey bought the machine And showed it to the to the workers and they didn't want to use it. They said no, no, no We're not going to use the machine, you know our artisans we hammer the symbols by hand Yeah, but robert took and said well, this is really cool. You know, let me let me play with it. Let me see and he Play with it and play with it and work with the work with it and he figured out how To hammer a symbol consistently with it once he learned the technique then he showed it to to his co-workers look Look, you know, here's the symbol and and I was able to hammer the symbol out in You know, half the time or a quarter of the time it took you guys, you know It was definitely a the his co-workers had an epiphany and realized Wow, this is a lot less work if we use this machine. Okay. Yeah, so that was the begin beginning of their their I call it the manual machine hammering because it's completely hand controlled and It's still the same technique they use today, which is they they strap basically a spindle on their left knee And they set the symbol on it's like a little tiny symbol stand and They move their leg or their or their thigh in and out left and right as they move it to their right They move it towards The hammering area and they're able to get the symbol underneath the hammer With the right foot is basically a gas pedal and that Will bring the hammer in closer to the hammering surface and as they press down the hammer comes in and and Will increase the the force of the blows harder and harder now the speed is the same the speed doesn't change But it's the force that that they're adjusting at the same time They're rotating their symbol with their right left hands So they're using all for their limbs simultaneously To hammer the symbol and this is the technique in 1952 That robert worked out And and this is what they use today in 2021. They still do the exact same thing. That's unbelievable only company to do this I mean that To me is not like, you know, oh machines like you're feeding it onto a conveyor belt And then it goes a machine and a robot is hammering. I mean that is like It's really a lot like you said It's like an artist working with the symbol and all this and if you're going to scale to be a way one of the biggest symbol companies in the world um, that seems to me like a You know a a major moment that made that possible to be At the level and to produce enough to to compete You know, what what's interesting is that you know in robert's interview He talks about it that the the rationale And it wasn't for mass production. It was for accuracy. He says hand hammering is great He says but there are there are always going to be inconsistencies And small mistakes and no matter how precise the siblesmith is It's not going to be perfect and he says with the machine hammering You take that factor out where you can be much more accurate the hammer blows And that way the symbols are very consistent from symbol to symbol. So they sound the same if you want to achieve a certain sound You do that and then you're able to replicate it and that's been Piste's Byline for decades their consistency And this is the main reason why and that's why they did it, you know, obviously It was a huge help to labor that was the reduction in labor And but I really look at his dealt in a lot of ways is more of a byproduct or secondary What was important was the consistency aspect? Yeah, and as usual Piste found a way and they found a way to make to improve the symbol making process without detracting or or reducing You know the quality or sound of the symbol in any way Yeah, unbelievable. I mean it's what's also cool is that it's still being used today And it's not like uh, oh my god, we're losing so much money on this old Yeah, yes, it's great. But we're we can't do this anymore. So clearly it it was a uh, effective Way to do it to this, you know, so many years later, which is just unbelievable That's that's one of the main reasons why pistes are so expensive. Yeah, people always say why are they so expensive? This is you know, it's it's I can't believe this compared to sabian zilgen and minor. Why are they so expensive? This is why this is there's one other factor, but this is the main factor because With piste symbols, there is a lot of hand labor. There is there is a human actually Contact in working the symbol A lot of time a lot of labor and with the other symbol companies nowadays It's almost completely automated. There's very little contact with the symbol. Yeah. Yeah, which I mean you that's expensive It you pay for time and labor and and quality and consistency and all that stuff And and training you have to train these guys And in an interview I read Way back it was a tour that modern drummer did with with robert in the mid 80s He said that it takes four to five years to train a worker or cymbal smith to the point Where they'll allow them to either hammer or lathe the top line symbol So that time would have been 602 set of creations in 2002 Four or five years of training now, obviously they're making symbols during that time, but yeah They're making 404s or 505s You know, they start them out something simple and then they'll work them up You know, they'll start them out with pressing the bell in or heating the center or trimming the symbol or you know, some of the more basic things And then they slowly work them up. But yeah, it's it's it's a huge investment in labor Yeah, for sure unbelievable So all right moving forward here you kind of alluded to that there's another factory So stop me if I'm getting ahead of our of myself here, but um You know, we all know everyone thinks of piste is being a swiss company and it's just interesting that like I remember when I started doing the show in in 2018. I was like Googling I think all right, so this is kind of a funny side that I was working on a trivia game That would be done through your amazon alexa and it was like I got like 30 questions in and one of them was Where was piste originally? Where were the you know, where was the piste family from and it was going to be estonia And then like I hit like refresh accidentally and I lost every single question that took like three hours to do So I just gave up on that amazon thing. Um, so Anyway, we know them as swiss. So we're getting near that point of where that all came from, right? Yes so There's still again, but we're we're getting into the the early fifties and or even the mid fifties and any of you Especially the the older listeners You watch documentaries about the mccarthy hearings and the and the quote-unquote red scare in the us There was also the berlin airlift in 1949. I believe Where stall and completely cut off berlin from the west Because berlin is actually very deep into east germany But it was accessible and it was basically a western city and it was Long story short There was the big fear of encroaching communism of stalling and the soviet union Moving in further further west in the germany and robert was really afraid of that so he didn't want to stay in germany and One of the things that they tried in the late forties early fifties you know the pisci family applied for refugee status and tried to get visas Into the us and I think even canada and the us and canada had quotas and I believe the the pisci family was officially astonian And the quota for the number of astonians that the us would would let into the country after world war two had already been fulfilled So they couldn't get into us. Jeez So the next thought was well, what about sweden or switzerland because switzerland was neutral during the war and so was sweden so They took I believe they took a trip to switzerland and that kind of sealed the deal as far as you know robert really liked the area and It was robert himself on his own because now we're talking he's robert would have been around 20 years old if he was born in 1932. He would have been 20 in 1952 So he decided to move on his own down to switzerland and set up a shop and he was in a single room by himself Making symbols man. What a tough. He's a tough dude. Yeah Once again Pisci found a way. Yeah So and this is this is important obviously part of history, but also um father pisci mckellum stayed in germany And we'll find that that german plan or german factory Um was run by him and he stayed there the rest of his life until 1963 when he passed away So the company was under his name and he owned the company but robert really Obviously was the driving force and he was the the creative spark of the company and he ventured off on his own to set up, you know a new location in switzerland and Tumas was still very young. He was still in high school. He was seven years younger So you only went a bit. I'm like 13 years old. Okay. I was going to ask what about tumis this whole time But but so he's he's just a kid. Yeah, he's still just a kid. So he's he I know did a travel with him initially now I don't know when tumis joined him but I do know that once we get into The late fifties Not even the late fifties 55 56 um Robert is looking for a new alloy because remember he's working with nickel silver and brass still And he's and he's producing the zoko and the stampul series still He's obviously he knows about b20 robert does And it's not something that Is available pretty much anywhere in europe again We're still in the reconstruction era after world war two where countries are still Really reeling from all the damage from the war, you know, we're only Six seven years Maybe eight years after world war two. So There are foundries and rolling mills in switzerland and he starts to visit them and he finds A mill that's just across the lake from where he settled And not well switzerland. It's just right across. I looked at it on the map And it the company which became swiss metal uh Made b20 bronze and rolled it And produced blanks for the swiss mint And the reason why they did this is because swiss coins were made from b20 prawns. Oh man Wow, so it was happenstance that robert picked that location where he settled And the fact that the only mill in all of switzerland That produced b20 bronze was across the lake from him Wow, he finally gets i mean he's had some breaks, but he's had to find a way but finally it's like, all right Here's a little something Some b20 for you No, there's a couple things to think about till we back up just a tad a little bit number one If he went to settle there Who knows how long would have taken to to gain access to b20? It could have been decades You know, so Pisces may have only been a small company in germany that built dongs And maybe some symbols on the side another thing to think about too is that If the united states are let the pay the piscy family in or canada They would have been here making symbols since 1950 or 1948 And they would have had plenty of access to b20 I mean they could have bought it from zilgen at that point if zilgen was willing to sell it to them You know, yeah, I mean or or if they and again The reason why they didn't have their own foundry is because it's expensive And the rolling machines are expensive, you know, this this is something that they just couldn't afford And I think about if piscy would have settled here and I say 1948 You know, what would it have been like, you know, what would have the company been like because You know, obviously the united states is the land of plenty So the the resources are virtually, you know, unlimited. So I just you know, I just think about that and just man Yeah, I mean, but it all works out in it. There's a certain I don't know. There's a certain thing about it being a swiss, you know, it's just a different it has a vibe to it Even just the Like the other like like minal in germany It's like you think that's a german symbol and obviously we know know that piscy But there's just a certain something about Even the colors the red and the white it's just like it feels swiss, which just uh, you know, it's cool It's just yeah, and then there's all the other, you know, the sound and the metal and all that on top of it But um, yeah, it's in a different universe Maybe they're here, you know, they're based out of like, uh, michigan or something, you know Yeah, absolutely absolutely So so the story goes on with robert and that okay, so the mill Would would roll the material, but it was really thick And there's no way that robert can make symbols out of them You've seen the videos of like zillian and sabian when they're rolling out The ingots they end up looking like a big potato chip They're kind of oval shaped and they're very thin, you know, they're close to the the thickness of what the symbol will end up being so The mill couldn't roll any thinner and and this is what's called a hot rolling stage because the material is hot And the rollers have to be cooled and this is a big big mill, you know, so these are huge machines This is this is a you know, if you look on youtube for like steel production You know, you'll see these videos of them running running these glowing hot Bars through these huge rollers that are just being drenched with water to keep them cool So they don't lose their hardness Yeah, you know and they roll them back and forth to thin it out and like that and they mainly You know squish it a few a few millimeters or You know in freedom units, it would say maybe a tenth of an inch or less in any way Robert took these samples all over swiss alike to all these different mills and none of them could roll it any thinner and You know, he was about ready to give up and I believe that he went back to the same mill and There was an old master there and he says well, we have a defunct Mill down the street. It's shut down But you're more than welcome to use it and it has a hot rolling stage Which I assume means that it has an oven where you heat up the blank And then you can roll it So they gave him a worker to go with them and robert spent umpteen hours in there Rolling and rolling and rolling and I believe one of things with b20 because it's very brittle and you have to really Fiddle with the temperatures and how hot you heat it how quickly you you cool it. Yeah, you know, what temperature Is it is it at when you're actually rolling it? If you don't get it right it cracks and it just it's constantly cracking It's very brittle material. It's very hard to get it where it's malleable enough that you could shape it And and roll it that thin Well, pice he found a way Robert figured it out Through trial and error he figured out how to roll these b20 blanks thin enough that it can make symbols from them He went back to the main mill and he showed the master what he had done and he says Well, if you could do it we can do it So robert showed the mill how to roll the b20 in such a way that they could get it thin enough that it wouldn't crack That was swiss metal. Yeah swiss metal provided b20 blanks To pice t From 1957 to 1994 The reason why pice t discontinued 602s and sound creations Was because swiss metal went out of business. Oh, wow The company is obviously swiss metal, right? Yeah, man. Yeah. Now. They actually my understanding is they actually were sold At some point and they're under under a different owner And I actually did I looked them up and they're actually bought by the chinese at some point And they were sold again recently so they did resurface But they don't produce b20 anymore not since 94 man, you know, it's just like it's almost like A movie and I know I've said that in other episodes about different scenarios, but like Robert this young guy he's like well, you know, well, we have a defunct You know, we have another mill you can go down to down the road and he's like, yeah, of course Then he goes and checks it out. I mean he's a young guy doing basically research and development I mean he's doing r&d down there. Yeah Over and over and then there's like a montage scene and the symbols are breaking and he's throwing them and he fixes it and You know, I think that I think they need to make a movie a documentary out of this exactly Yeah, as long as it has a montage, uh, it's gonna be good. Um Wow, that's just unbelievable that it that it worked out that way And so correct me if i'm wrong though that That machine and everything they were using would have been previously used for I'm sure a lot of other things But for making coins as well, right? Yeah, or I mean it's basically You know, it's it's a machine that has two big rollers and you're just you're squishing the metal down You you basically have a sheet and you squish the metal down So it's so it's thinner and thinner you're reducing the thickness sure and you're increasing the length of the material wow and and It could be used. I mean the thing is is that they didn't necessarily roll b20 with it because Swiss metal produced steel and copper and aluminum. I mean they produced all different types of metals and they're produced in all different shapes, you know in bars and in Rods and plates, you know, it depends on the customer, you know, they have a standard if if you look up you could find it um on several different company sites, um Yeah, there's there's standard that kind of dimensions for this materials that you can buy to work with Yeah, and it's used in manufacturing used in everything, you know so b20 was not a common material Uh in in the for industrial use in fact, it was I don't as far as I know it wasn't used at all for industrial use But the swiss mint Used it in their coins and that's why this company By I I can't pronounce the name Uh uh fritz pronounced it. It's but it's too hard for sure. Yeah. Yeah who became swiss metal We're the only ones that work with b20 and actually rolled it out But just not thin enough to make a symbol now. All right, so explain a little bit about He would leave with what he had rolled and go back to the piste swiss factory To hammer out the symbol. Is that basically the process? He would just drive across the lake. I mean you have to drive around the lake to his shop, which you know I'm sure it was like, you know, kind of like a little garage with the house or something Which I which I believe is still there. It's still because that's that's where the piste Factory is now and there is a little house there in the back. So I'm assuming that's his original little shop That he set up and it was 57 When he started to produce what was called the super formula 602 Wow, awesome. So that was piste's first b20 symbol and and that was the six the formula 602 They they dropped the name super and it became the formula 602 in 59. Wow, which is such an iconic symbol. I mean that's uh So was as we're in that, you know, I mean was the world noticing more like let's talk about maybe like they're Obviously they'd been doing it for a long time and it's been, you know, I mean a lot of hardships, but You know 57 58 59 we're getting into pretty modern. This isn't as much like, you know War torn Europe as much as it was like a decade before Were things were they getting more attention worldwide? Ludwig. Oh, yeah This is this is perfect timing. Yeah, you know, this is really a whole chapter in itself But there's the Ludwig chapter now to back up Robert Refers or mentions at the end of his interview about how Ludwig senior Bill Ludwig senior who who is who he's he's the people don't know Much about Ludwig history. He he emigrated from Germany I believe at the turn of the century and he is the one who Invented the first not the first but but but a good a high-quality Basestrum pedal. That's how he founded the Ludwig business. Yeah, and in the really early 1900s. Yeah 1909. I think is the accepted. There you go. Okay. Yeah, so Um, I don't know how I I'm gonna make it a something here that grant that father feisty mcklm Had either sold him or had some sort of business dealings with them before world war two as a distributor as like a music store kind of Well, the only thing I could think of is that maybe he made gongs for love. Oh, I see. Yeah, I see now I don't have there's no information on this. I can ask fritz to see if fritz fritz knows anything But what I do know in roberts interview Uh with fritz is that he mentions that after world war two and I'm assuming that this is in the late 40s um Bill Ludwig senior sent the feisty family care packages Which is basically like food And I think I I I'm assuming that that was a common thing During the reconstruction after world war two Was we would send like the blue cross would send Uh a care packages to europe sure but but these were specifically from Uh bill Ludwig senior to the feisty family. So there was some contact there after world war two. Yeah, but the story really picks up Uh and in the late 50s and this also again is when When robert is getting the swiss factory up and running So obviously he must have hired a few workers. I mean, obviously he must be expanding at the same time He's also developing b20. He started to produce the super from the 602 Um, they strike a deal and I don't know if it was father pisces or robert Or I I would assume that it would be it would be michael because tumas I think is still too young tumas became The marketing sales side and he handled all the business once he once he came Uh, you know to the four Uh 57 is when ludwig first lists the what was called the ludwig three star symbol In their catalog that's 1957 Um now initially those are only produced in germany So that would have been father pisces because remember father pisces run in the german factory And he ran it pretty much until he died in 63 Yeah, so now you have two separate entities that are still connected together and you're starting to see the parallel between In a lot of ways between armen and robert zilgen. Yep, exactly the the the canadian asco plan and then and then the massachusetts a factory Yeah, so they did start to produce The symbols for ludwig and it was huge Uh ludwig was ordering 20 000 of these symbols a per year and and these were stem bulls The higher end of the zilco or the stem bull would be their top Yeah, the these were the pisces stem bulls. They were just restamped of ludwig pisces Uh, the early ones didn't have a location because they they came out of germany But once a swiss plant came online you started to see made in germany or swiss made which would have been post 57 Gotcha. Um, and these were nickel silver symbols um Yeah, this was huge for pisces and I I think really this relationship with ludwig really Made them who they are today. Yeah, I mean that's you're like you're funding I mean you're like that's like you're not selling 20 000 symbols, you know in a year or whatever That's just like unbelievable. So I mean by today's standard. That's nothing. I read somewhere that sabian recently Uh surpassed 800 000 mark. I'll produce some symbols a year Yeah, I could be completely wrong with it, but I recently remember somewhere saw that Yeah, but but that's about 1800 symbols a month for pisces. Yeah, so obviously ludwig was by far the largest customer Yeah in night. I mean, but this that's that's 2021 this this is 19. We're talking 19, you know, 50 57 58 so that's a different world Yeah, so both plants are now online. They're both pumping out ludwig symbols Uh, and they're both doing well and and in uh, not well the swiss plan is starting to produce 602s um Iver arbiter comes into the picture in 1962 he owned drum city in london So he became the uh, the uk pisces distributor in 1962 and was another big influence on piscy because Obviously the demand sure, uh The relationship was so strong that uh, and arbiter was such a big influence that piscy actually We did their logos and added custom or arbiter custom above The formula 602 name. Wow, so you'll see out there Uh 602s and either some lower line pisces where it says custom over it and a famous, uh user of that is charlie watz for decades had A 16 and 602 thin crash that was an arbiter custom that he had bought in the mid 60s That is so cool. And he played it all the way through. I believe the 80s until a crack at some point maybe In the mid 90s early 90s. I'm sure the cracked symbol is somewhere is in his like collection. I would imagine it's probably very valuable Geez so iver arbiter recommended to build ludwig this would be build ludwig junior now That uh, he should carry pisces top of the one symbols, which is the 602 So this would have been probably around 63 64 and Ludwig did make a trip to piscy Um to look at the factory and they did decide to carry the six arches Uh build ludwig work closely with a gentleman by the name of bob yeager who owned uh, what Is called the uh pro drum shop in hollywood sure what still exists today and is run by his sons um bob yeager was a big influence especially on the west coast on drummers And music kind of an american iver arbiter Yes, yes. Yeah, and he was i believe ludwig's biggest uh customer For ludwig drums. I was i i could be wrong But but i'm into the something that he sold them the mostly he you know the most ludwig drums. Yeah, I can see that um, and he was selling the uh, The lud the lud the ludwig piscy symbols at the same time Um, this also coincided with the british invasion in the beetles in 64 With the huge explosion and demand for drums for kids Once they saw ringo. Oh, yeah on uh on the at Sullivan show and the That black oyster pearl set with the ludwig stenciled name on the top of the drum head just You know blew up the industry. I mean it just it just blew up Ludwig's, you know Volume and sales they had to run three shifts around the clock 24 7 for sure enough And obviously the demand for symbols went up too. So obviously piscy Was doing well Very well like this man the right company to be hooked up with I mean, yes what that really Absolutely game changer piscy definitely found a way and they made The right contact at the right time with with both the ludwigs junior and senior. Yeah, for sure. So um, bob yager was kind of a A technical consultant to build ludwig When they went over to piscy and they looked at the 602s. They played them. They tested them and um bob yager felt that they were too heavy for each Description whether it was a thin crash a thin the medium medium ride or heavy They felt that the weights of the weight of the symbol itself was too heavy for that particular designation So they basically told piscy you need to make your symbols x amount thinner. They specified a certain amount So piscy literally all the way across their line made all of their 602s thinner for them Which would come And bite them in the end big time. Oh, yeah, what happened? You know ludwigs started distributing 602s and obviously they're really popular and they did really well And then they started cracking. Oh boy. Yeah And at some point uh bill ludwig junior Told piscy look, you know, we've been replacing all these symbols. We've got a warehouse or a Vault full of these crack symbols, you know, you guys need to do something and we need to return some of these to you So both robert and tumis came over this this I would assume it wouldn't probably late 60s. Maybe 68 69 something like that They came over chicago They looked at the symbols, uh bill ludwig junior took them to a show And I don't know if it was a while I assume it was probably some kind of pop or rock band and robert and tumis were on the side of the stage and they watched the drummer play and watch them crack a symbol On stage during the performance in front of them. Uh-oh And they turned to bill ludwig and it says your your drummers are hitting our symbols way too hard They're cracking because they're hitting them too hard. They're too thin So, you know, there's two sides of the story and and and I've got bill ludwig's book where he talks about it And and robert piscy also talks quite a bit about it in his interview and there's definitely two sides of the story Robert claims that that did replace the symbols Bill ludwig claims that piscy didn't replace the symbols and it cost him a million dollars. Oh my god Because of having to replace all these broken symbols Uh, but robert was very adamant that the problem was was that, you know, these are young drummers playing, you know, basically rock music now Uh, and they're hitting the the drums and the symbols hard and those symbols, especially at that weight weren't designed for that 602s were designed Originally as a jazz symbol that was their development. That's who the market was named at was european jazz drummers. Sure Which i mean i see both sides of it though, but i'm like also i'm like In that time when there's just drummers coming out everywhere because they love ringo it's sort of like Yeah, but you can't really blame people because they don't know and they're just buying a symbol from ludwig that they think so And and that actually makes me want to ask you too. So like when ludwig is distributing a symbol Obviously ludwig's not like a music store where you go and buy these would it be like distributed through their catalog? Like you buy a complete set and you can choose your series of symbols Or how would that be presented via ludwig? I mean Pisces were listed in the ludwig catalog started in 1957 And they went all the way through. I think the 73 catalog was the last time they were listed and by 60 77 i believe i'll have to i'll have to look it up 602s Were also listed and they had the full line Of all the 602s that piscy carried Ludwig also started to Carry and list giant beats in 71 even though giant beats have been around for a while They showed up in their 71 catalog There was a lot of specialty symbols and they carried piscy gongs Ludwig had even carried the infamous piscy cowbell What's supposedly bottom used on good times bad times? Oh cool one Wow, that's awesome. I've supposedly yeah, I mean I've heard of that That legend it's you know before talking to you. I didn't really realize the as much of the connection between piscy and ludwig I don't think it's as known as uh Um, some people you know like a piscy guy like you might think so this is really good info to get out there It it was obviously huge for the company the story ends with ludwig um They pull out without notice. They stopped their orders Um, they didn't tell piscy. Uh, I don't have an exact date, but from what I could tell it was probably around 1971 Yeah, maybe 72 Now they obviously still had inventory because they were offering them their catalogs But I have a feeling that all they were doing is selling off what they had and bill ludwig junior And his book says that he gave away the rest of the 602s Uh, which is which is pretty crazy. Yeah, I mean so the split obviously Or shall I say the crack in their relationship? Yeah Was because of that issue with the the 602s right and being too thin. Okay. Yeah makes makes perfect sense There's a whole bunch of back and forth where bill ludwig claims that You know piscy offered him a discount because the cracking and then they immediately turned around and raised their prices 10% The counter at the discount and robber says no That's not what happened. We gave him a discount because they were marketing their symbols They were doing all the advertising and marketing the us force So they gave him a discount and that deal ended and That also coincided with the increase in material costs. We raised our prices because of material costs Not because we were replacing crack symbols So it was definitely contentious Yeah, a lot of and the fact that there's these two stories is kind of like also classic Drum world of like we'll never really know what was said in that That room and and to reinforce that. I mean, this is a little bit more background You know what Ludwig originally? I think it's 64 or 65. They're at a music show They displayed some 602s and avidus zilgin obviously was there in his booth And he saw it and he went up to bill Ludwig's hotel room And the piscy brothers were there. They were in the room and avidus blew up at Ludwig junior Just absolutely flipped out and and i've from the andy zilgin podcast He talks about his father and how the fighting and how he was really a real fiery temper I could see that bill Ludwig junior was cut off And this is before he had cemented a deal with piscy for the 602s But the piscy brothers were there and they told bill we will supply you with with whatever you need You know piscy will find a way we'll make it happen And they actually piscy was actually able to get a loan from their bank Because they took the new orders for 602s from Ludwig to the banks and look we have all this business And they got a big loan and they're able to modernize or upgrade a lot of their equipment Uh in switzerland for the production And I also want to say real quick that switzerland was the only factor that produced b20 The german factory never produced it German product factory produced brass nickel silver and b8, but they never produced any b20 And again swiss metal was the cross across the lake From the not well factory. So that kind of makes sense Yeah, um at any rate Piscy obviously was devastated when Ludwig pulled their orders in the early 70s And robert's interview he talks about there was a lean time of about one to one and a half years And they had to bridge the gap because they wanted to keep Their workers because these guys were trained civil smiths, you know, they couldn't lay these guys off So they took on other work and They built cabinets for company. I think for traffic signals for switches They built snow chains And they rebuilt carburetors for the swiss army under the piscy name Like in the factory like the company started doing these other things, right? Is that we mean? Yeah, this is like in switzerland In like 1971 1972 now remember this is when the 2002 came out. You think oh, this was huge piscy was doing so well No They were they were having to make snow chains And it was surviving because they had to pay the workers So they got the that's what the workers were making and rebuilding carburetors Wow heist he found a way to survive exactly And they were used to it. They knew they knew what they had to do because They had been through this multiple times So yes, it was devastating for them and It was also devastating to the reputation and to this day a lot of the reputation of piscy symbols crack Comes from this Ludwig episode Interesting. Yeah, absolutely. I mean that's That's a whole uh, that's a whole thing That's a whole lot of history between the two to some of the two biggest companies in in history there and it's just like man Well, so so that can continue on with the timeline if you want Yeah, and let me let me preface this right now with people listening Just as a heads up because you're probably like wow, this is a long episode And we're not really that far. I mean we're far, but we're not Near the end we're going to split this one. We're going to keep going now for a little bit but we're going to split this into two episodes And what we're going to do is go up a little we're going to go back now and then kind of move around And then we're going to go up until the point of like You know john bonham and the 2002s and the rock explosion and when it really kicked up and You know a lot of the big endorsers and and just what you think of with these just legendary players using them So we're going to pick that up later. So just know that You know, we're going to cover it all. It's coming. It's coming. But that's coming But you know, my god, we could this can't be a three-hour episode. So um, all right Anyway, Dan back to what we're talking about Carry on so piscy is evolving in the in the early 60s Uh, this thing with arbiter and and with Ludwig They do come out with some new lines. Now, these are all lower lines and they're relatively inconsequential and What is important is that you start to see a divergence between the german factory and the swiss factory and One of the things happens with the zilco is the zilco is basically discontinued And it is replaced by what is called the dixie and 1959 And the dixie Is important because in 1978 the dixie becomes the 404 Which is actually a really good symbol and There's a lot of piscy collectors out there and they're finding that especially the last few years, especially I think with the pandemic Prices have shot up on all classic symbols. Yeah collectors because it's fun to do. Yeah so Dixie's and 404s are actually Decent symbols now remember they're still machine hammered manually. So the symbols are hammered into shape You know, there is no automation. There's no pressing. There's no nothing. There's still there's a lot of hand work at any rate um While the swiss plant produces the the dixie A mystery symbol called the standard pops up Which for all intents and purposes is a zilco. And then you see A zilco standard and from what we could tell one of those was produced in germany and the zilco standard May have been produced in in switzerland or vice versa Um and to make things more confusing Arbiter also started to carry a zilco. So there was a there was a zil it was labeled arbiter standard or arbiter zilco Um, but they're all the same symbol Just labeled differently. I mean, they're just At the at the end of the production line, it would be a different, you know stamp going on there. Yeah, exactly Yeah, and one was produced in germany one was produced in switzerland I don't know which factory produced the arbiter zilcos that could have been germany There again these there's all still working with nickel silver. This is pre b8 um One of the things that you do run into that I kind of miss with that low book story is um During that period of the mid to late 60s, there was this big explosion of creativity and Robert talks about in his interview that for years they had a hard time getting um Music stories to carry their symbols because they didn't have the zilco name on it And what he found was that he could connect directly with the drummers and maybe even sell directly to the drummers But he basically created a group which became what was called the quote-unquote peisty drummer service Where robert would put together these symposiums or meetings with drummers and you'd sit down and get a group of drummers together You know Maybe travel somewhere and in europe and meet with the whole group of drummers and sit down and just talk to them And i'm sure who would bring a bunch of the symbols and he would say what do you guys think? What about this and they would offer all these suggestions? And one of the big ones was you know, we have problems with the hi-hats with airlock when you're open and close the hi-hat with your foot The symbols will get in a position Where you pretty much lose the sound of the of the check of the symbol when you're open and closing with your foot so robert came up with a solution which was to Basically press in a wavy edge on the bottom hi-hat symbol. Yeah, which we know today is the sound edge hi-hat Yeah, which is awesome. It makes a huge difference Yeah, the other oddity I don't know if we call it an oddity was during the Ludwig era joe morello was the The big indoor c i believe bill Ludwig actually introduced him or talked him into him or worked out a deal where joe morello would endorse pasties and pasty actually produced A special version of the 6024 joe joe came over and they worked out a special version Which was known as a joe morello set which are still out there and they're really good symbols They just have a little bit finer lading and maybe the hammering is slightly different Uh, and it brings 14 of hi-hats 17. It's crash like a thin crash Uh an 18 is thin crash and then what they call it 20 inch a deep ride and that was a joe morello set That's awesome at the same time When joe was visiting switzerland um That I guess it was a fad or a new style of watches Of course the swiss are known for making watches or they made these super thin watches And joe had bought one and was fascinated with it And he joked with robert Why don't you guys make a symbol like this and robert looks at the watch and sees that it's really thin and flat and says Huh, that's interesting so he goes back to to the factory and and not well and Says hey, let's make a symbol without a bell. Let's see what happens. So sure enough They create the flat ride. Wow Man joe morello, that's how the flat ride came into being was it was basically a joke or a gag You know of you know joe made this joke and robert's like, okay. Well, I'll make one You know, you're joking about okay. Here you go. This is what which is what you wanted You know, unbelievable. That's I've never heard that anywhere else. That's awesome Yeah, I mean, it's just amazing the amount of innovation. You know pice. He always finds a way. Yeah You know, so um, all right as we're getting close here to to you know being Wrapping up. Why don't we talk about the elephant in the room? Which is the whole b8 thing and then I think that's a good kind of point to leave people on as we're as we're Wrapping up here and then again for everyone listening. There will be a part two So, um, what's the deal with the whole b8 thing? so b8 bronze or Or bronzes that are very close to that mixture of 8 10 92 percent copper Are are available everywhere and in the industry I actually originally was doing a search to see if I could find something I found a b7 bronze that had zinc in it that's used for bearings or bushings That's that's you know a standard material that's been I'm sure available for for Half a century or more so b8 was something that was actually available and Pisces was looking for robert. I should say it was looking for a replacement for nickle solver They wanted to get away from nickle solver. They knew that it was very limited and its sound qualities At the same time, you know robert and established that Pisces drummer service and the thing that he was seeing in the mid 60s 63 64 65 Obviously with the Beatles was these drummers were starting to play larger venues The amplifiers were getting bigger And the stage volume was getting a lot louder and drummers were telling them We can't compete with the ample amplification. You know our our cymbals aren't loud enough our drums aren't loud enough So that's when he wanted this quest to find another another alloy And you know that it was a it was a it was a two-fold thing because one he was looking for something to replace nickle solver okay, so he needed basically I don't want to call it cheap but an inexpensive alloy because b20 obviously is very hard to produce very labor intensive and it's expensive So he wanted to find something like nickle solver that was easy to work with At the same time. He also wanted to find To fulfill the need of drummers of finding an alloy that could cut through the amplification Of pop and rock music that was starting to develop in the mid 60s So he killed two birds with one stone when he started to experiment with b8 and they used their experience of working with brass and ns 12 and They Manipulated the b8 and hammered it and laved it in such a way that they created a really pretty sound and symbol and that was The Stambul 65 series which came out in 1965 That was Pisces first b8 symbol And it's a really good sounding symbol and they're out there. They're actually relatively common. You can find them Now it's not to be mixed up with the Stambul Because the quote-unquote regular Stambul was still made out of nickel silver And the funny thing was and this I don't really understand is that um, and this kind of comes into the confusion of Pisces having either different name symbols that are made the same way or the same symbol that are that are used different alloys or God knows what The Stambul 65 I would assume was a replacement for the Stambul, but it didn't replace it because they continued in parallel And the standard regular Stambul was still made of nickel silver all the way up until about 1971 And the Stambul 65 continued all the way from 65 all the way up into the early 70s I think as late as 1975 the naming conventions of these Are early on obviously there's a there's so many lines and stuff where maybe that's a little confusing especially for You know historians All right. No, no this is Stambul 65 Not Stambul and then it's you know, it's it's interesting I mean if you look at 1965 they would have made the 602 They would have made the Dixie um The Zilco would have been out there in some shape or form or other Zilco standard Or the Arbiter Zilco Um, they would have had the Stambul 65 So And again, the Dixie was supposed to replace the Stambul, but the Stambul still existed. So You know, yeah, you know, it's like what's going on here Well, all right. So and then my big question I would ask is why is b8 In most circles referred to as a cheaper beginner more inexpensive uh alloy when With piste it's Beautiful and they've been able to create this unbelievable, uh, you know sound with it Um, where does that is that just like a rumor or it also I like I I truly think that naming the sabian line b8. That's a beginner line Probably wasn't good for uh, the the reputation of that. Um, you know that alloy How does that all work? That's you know, it's controversial subject, but that's all The zilgin marketing propaganda machine that goes back to the late 70s early 80s now, I remember younger listeners Sabian didn't really didn't really exist until by 83, especially the us Yeah, I think 81 was they had to wait two years or something. Yeah Yeah, so you you had a period from in the us From really that the 50s the mid 50s all the way up until 83 Where it was just zilgin and piste was the only competition and I've got a couple Advertisers from the early 80s late 70s that were in modern drummer magazine Where zilgin refers to piste's they don't refer to them by name but they refer to the competition as Stamped cookie cutter sheet metal symbols Oh geez those are thems are fighting words. Yeah, and and From day one I've seen several different quotes from both robert and tumis where they never engage zilgin They never responded. They never named zilgin in any other promotion or marketing. They never Measure the competition in any way, especially in a kind of derogatory way the way zilgin did Yeah, that that built that kind of Rumor or aura that people carry with them today About how zilgin's are cast and piste's are sheet sheet metal symbols All symbols are cast at some point because that's how you pour out The molten alloy you either pour it in a single ingot or with b8. They pour it out basically into a big long square bar The difference is with b8 is that's it b8 is what's called a single phase alloy And that means that the copper and tin are completely mixed together And b20 is a two phase alloy and that means that a substantial amount of the tin and copper are actually separate And they stay separated even though they've been in a molten state so b20 needs to be rolled hot while The alloy is flexible and the and the atoms are in such a state Well, the where they will reorientate themselves to a certain degree And it will change the hardness the toughness and how malleable the material is and it'll keep it from cracking b8 you don't have any of those problems None of those problems. So b8 is rolled cold In other words, it's put through rollers without having to be heat. It's at room temperature Because it's a relatively softer material because of the high copper content It's much more easily to work. Yeah, you don't have to have what's called a quote unquote hot rolling stages Yeah, which allows for more cracking and problems and going back to robert Robert was doing this, you know figuring it out and all that stuff that he doesn't have to do that anymore Right. It's it's the conditioning of the alloy b20 Requires a huge amount of conditioning enough heating cooling Which will either create tempering or annealing. It's you're changing the state of the alloy Of how brittle or hard it is. Yeah by all these heating cooling cycles all these heat cycles and then rolling So all this work has to be done to get b20 to the point where you can actually hammer it out without a cracking With b8, you don't have that problem at all at any stage So, you know, it makes it a less expensive alloy from the get-go And this was great for pisces and they obviously had that in mind because it was originally intended to replace the stand bowl series Which was a lower series, but at the same time robert needed an alloy That had different sound characteristics that would cut through The new fad of amplified music of rock music. Yeah brighter brighter and sharper. I guess, right? Yep If you ever For our younger listeners Pennies used to be made out of copper They haven't been probably for over 20 years But if you find an older copper pennies, use it to tell you take it you throw it against the ground like like concrete And listen for the distinct ring and has a very distinct Very pretty high frequency ring That's that b8 ring that you hear in 2002s And 505s and 404s and all the b8 symbols that pisces produced And to answer your question about zilz and insabian They use b8 for their for their lower level lines because yeah, it's it's it's less expensive It's much easier to work They don't have to go through all of the of the the prep stages in order to get The material to a point where they can they can hammer it or work it into a symbol Yeah, so they do use it for the lower lines now I know sabian did produce the ba pro for a while And years ago, I remember playing with them and thinking these actually are okay. They're not that bad But i've never heard zilz and or sabian They've never mastered b8. Yeah, that's an interesting outlook on it. It's like yeah, they use it for the cheaper stuff But it's you know and again i'm i try to stay unbiased but it um, it's uh, it's Pisces has clearly perfected how to use this Uh metal like no one else and made it their own and very special Once again, pisces found a way. Yeah and Even more credit to them Minel as we know it today wouldn't exist without pisces Because in the early 80s minel started producing their first b8 symbols, which is the profile on the raker And that was the first symbol that they imported to the us And I remember it distinctly because i'm like, what is this? What's a raker? You know, who are these guys? but that's what gave minel foothold and a leg up and Got them to the huge company they are now and I don't I could be wrong, but I think they're bigger than pisces I mean Minel which there's obviously a minel episode with norbert from uh, minel um, and and he goes into all that stuff. But yeah, minel is definitely Yeah, uh a player as well and uh, yeah Unbelievable and I just want to throw it out there. It's just interesting when zilz and was kind of throwing mud That pisty didn't uh react and it's just like I just keep thinking how swiss, you know, they stayed neutral You know, they didn't they didn't fight back. Yeah, and and and and regarding robert pisty Fritz told me that that this was the first formal interview that robert had given in 2006 Since 1972 Wow, so Yeah, he's not a public person, you know, and that that is part of the the kind of pisty mythology and mystery of people not knowing what's the deal with this company. Why are they keeping all these secrets? Well A lot of it has to do with the personalities of robert and tumas, but also Look what's it? Look what's look what they've gone through and look what the competition has done to them You know totally his childhood and going back. I mean this is just like Unbelievable refugee and you know not allowed to speak russian or stony and as a kid and yeah Yeah, at any rate back to b8 Very quickly after the 65 robert also produced the giant beat And that was specifically Aimed at the new burgeoning rock drummer now we're into 67 at 68 So, you know Now you're starting to see real Like what would be considered like almost hard rock, you know, you've got cream In 67. Yeah, you've got you got to bring them up at some point or another Carmine and vanilla fudge. Yep, which we're actually a pretty hard band Sure now and you start to see these bands You know and of course in 68 there's lead sapling So you start to see this really hard edge and even more amplification And and and even higher stage volumes Drummers playing even harder using necker sticks So the giant beat Was aimed directly at that where the standbull 65 Was kind of an interim series and tended as a replacement for the original standbull The giant beat was directly aimed At that music and it really fulfilled that niche Yeah, and did really well Which I mean, I think they're Because right there we're kind of hitting the point of like the the the list of drummers who play these things are uh Honestly, there's more drummers who played feisty than than I ever really realized Until I actually started to look at it and go oh my god. These are like it's unbelievable So I think that's where we can pick it up next time because it's like, you know, we can't start We can't start that at like The hundredth minute of this basically or whatever we're at but um, sure So, um, I just think I want to thank you dan because I think You should be Very proud. I mean sure representing feisty so well and um, and I we have a lot to look forward to for the next episode If I could add I kind of wanted to really tip my hat to a couple people But especially a gentleman by the name of todd little Who is invaluable with his research and he really was the source of The the early 60s All the way through the 70s different models of when they were produced what they were made out of Obviously steve black and I have to say that um, steve black fritz And todd little They're the ones that did the research. I'm just a mouthpiece. Sure, you know, I I I'm kind of a bone collector. I gathered the information and put it together and posted a lot of it on the wiki page. Um The individual models you see the old discontinued models of the feisty symbols I would put that information together, but it was from todd little or is from steve black Yeah, the the the personal stuff the feisty story the feisty family Uh, a lot of the production information That's all fritz So it's really I have to give credit to those guys, you know, I'm just the one repeating relaying the information But they're the ones that were either there or talked to feisty or Did the legwork? Of finding this information. So all of it is really difficult to find so totally. Thank you. Thank you to all all of those guys Yeah, absolutely. Um Awesome, and there's a ton of cool pictures that I can share with this as well. Um, so people listening I we're not gonna there's gonna be no bonus episode this week just because uh, this is like, you know Your bonus episode was this super long episode. That's a two-parter. So, uh, we'll pick it up and then the next week will be, um We're gonna pick up the feisty history at about Late 60s early 70s and getting into the 2002s and the rock explosion and all that stuff. Um But uh, yeah dan, I just again, I'm super happy to have you on here doing this. So I'm going to PASIC tomorrow while I'm recording this. Um, I'm going to PASIC on friday the 12th Um, so maybe next week too. I can report back to you guys a little bit about how it was I can only go during the day I live pretty close, but I'll kind of give you know, shout out real quick to PASIC and uh, because I get a press pass and all that stuff So I'll report back next week on how it was. Um as well, so Yeah, dan, thank you so much again everyone dan garza who you can you can go to the easiest thing too is just, um Symbol dot wiki and you can find the feisty page there and uh follow along um for next week as well So dan, thank you so much for being on here and I look forward to part two Thank you and and thanks for allowing me to share and You know, obviously this has been kind of a lifelong passion for the last 40 years. I've been a feisty user so It's been really a uh An adventure for me totally unfolding peeling back the layers of the onion that is feisty Absolutely, and I think hopefully and I we talked about it before on the phone What we'll we'll talk about your love and background with feisty in the next one too as we kind of wrap that one up. So, um, okay Anyway, all right. Thank you dan. Thank you If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history and please share rate and leave a review And let me know topics that you would like to learn about in the future Until next time keep on learning