 Gwasanaetho, morfyn i gweithio cymdeithasol y Comitee Social Security. Efallai y maen nhw'ch cymdeithasol eu cofnod hynny mae'r gwrthwy adael â'r tyflau rhyngwyr yn y cyfrifol. Felly, yn ddych chi'n gweithio gyンタe o hyd wedi neu yma mi gyd產d dros yr hyn yn gyfyllfa yn gweithio gyflau'r cyfrifol yma. Felly will give you a couple of minutes if no one's all mobile phones off, that's great. Can we go to agenda item one which is declaration of interest? If I could just start off in them we can go round the table. My name is Sandra White MSP for Glasgow Kelvin and I have no relevant interests to declare. My name's Ruth Maguire MSP, for Cunningham South constituency. I have no relevant interests to declare. I'm George Adam, Paisley's MSP, and I have no relevant interests, but a couple of voluntary ones I'd like to make. I'm the patron of the Scottish Disability Equality Forum and a member of Rameshire Access panel, which may have some dealings with the work we do. Ben Macpherson, MSP for Edinburgh Northern and Leith, and I have no relevant interests to declare. Alison Johnstone, MSP for Lothian, and I have no relevant interests to declare. Gordon Lindhurst, MSP for Lothian. I have interests which are declarable for the register of interests that may not be relevant here, but I'll simply generally declare them. First of all, I am an advocate, a practicing advocate and member of the Faculty of Advocates. I own heritable property, which is declarable in Edinburgh and West Lothian, as well as there being rental incomes from this heritage. Finally, I have a holding of Royal Bank of Scotland shares. The details of these items will be in the register of members' interests. Thank you. Adam Tomkins, MSP for Glasgow, three relevant interests. I'm the John Miller Professor of Public Law at the University of Glasgow, and I'm in receipt of income there as an employee of the university. I'm also in receipt of irregular, modest, offence fee income, and I'm in receipt of royalties for the too many books I've written on constitutional law. I'm Pauline McNeill on the Glasgow regional list, and I have no relevant interests to declare. Mark Griffin, MSP for Central Scotland, and I have no relevant interests to declare at the committee. Thank you very much. We're now going to agenda item two, and that is the choosing of a convener. Basically, the Parliament has agreed that only members of the Scottish National Party are eligible for nomination as convener of this committee. Can I therefore ask members of the Scottish National Party to put forward a name for convener? Can I propose yourself, Sanya Sandra? I've known you for a very long time, so I know this is a role you'll be suited for, so can I nominate Sandra White? Thank you very much. Any objections to the nomination? Thank you. I just thank you all very much for the nomination, and that's agreed. Thank you very much. We're now going to agenda item three, the choice of a deputy convener. The Parliament has agreed that only members of the Scottish Labour Party are eligible for nomination as deputy convener of the committee. Can I therefore invite members of the Labour Party to nominate Deputy convener, Ms Mack? Can I nominate Pauline McNeill as deputy convener of the committee? Any objections to the nomination? Congratulations, Pauline McNeill, who I've known for a very long time also. Congratulations that you're now deputy convener. I look forward to working with yourself in that respect. Thank you. Agenda item four is the next committee meeting. We have one more meeting before the summer recess, and I thought I would suggest that we perhaps invite a minister to come along to give their views on the social security aspect of their portfolio. I wonder if members are okay with that particular suggestion. The next suggestion would be looking at round table proposals. The previous committee, or predecessor's committee, started its work with a couple of round table discussions with stakeholders to get their views on the priorities that they see for this particular committee and the powers that are coming to this Parliament, given that we don't have any immediate business at the moment. Perhaps September would be a good time to do a round table discussion. I just wonder if everyone... Pardon? Perhaps when would be a good time? September. September. That'd be all right. That agreed. Thank you very much. The next item in that particular part of the agenda is a business planning day. We have an option of a planning day late in the recess to plan our longer term work programme. I would welcome members' views on that particular aspect of it. I'll go round the table and take those views or start with yourself. I'm happy to take part in a planning day. Obviously it's a new committee coming together. We do have a lot of work ahead of us with the new powers coming. I think it would be worse while some time late in recess would definitely suit me. Pauline, have you any comments on that or any thoughts on it? It would make sense and also to try and understand the mechanics of the remit that we've got and the understanding of exactly when the powers will transfer to the Scottish Parliament. We're clear about the mechanics of everything before we decide our work programme. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. You've got any ideas on that particular one? Yes. I should have names. First of all, I'd like to congratulate you on your election to the committee and to congratulate Pauline Neal on her election to the deputy committee. I look forward to working with everybody here. I hope we're not always going to sit in party groups around the table. I think that committees work much better when the arrangement is not like that. I would like to draw one matter to the attention of the committee today. The fiscal framework agreement, which was agreed between the two Governments in February, states that the implementation dates for welfare will be agreed by the joint ministerial working group on welfare. The joint ministerial working group is part of the UK's architecture of intergovernmental machinery. There is a written agreement on parliamentary oversight of intergovernmental relations agreed between the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament near the end of the last session in the Devolution Further Powers Committee report that was published in March of this year. I'd like to say that I very much welcome that agreement and commend the Scottish Government for having entered into it. I think that it's going to be a very important agreement that will improve the ability of committees such as this and indeed the Scottish Parliament generally to hold ministers, to hold Scottish ministers and indeed UK ministers effectively to account for the intergovernmental operations that they engage in. Under paragraph 11 of the agreement, the Scottish Government has agreed to provide to the relevant committee of the Scottish Parliament to advance written notice prior to scheduled relevant meetings, that's to say relevant intergovernmental meetings. This will enable the relevant committee to express a view on the topic in advance of the intergovernmental meeting. Under paragraph 12 of the agreement, the Scottish Government agrees to provide the relevant committee of the Scottish Parliament with a written summary of the issues discussed, ideally it says, within two weeks. Now, convener, I would suggest that we are the relevant committee when it comes to meetings of the joint ministerial working group on welfare. And I understand that the joint ministerial working group on welfare is meeting today in Glasgow. May I therefore ask first whether the Scottish Government have given any indication to you as convener or indeed to the clerks to this committee that this meeting was to take place? Thank you very much. Your suggestion, I think, will certainly take on board. I knew about the meeting today, but it certainly was not officially told. It would have been good if we were able to go along, but obviously we were just starting this committee so we couldn't. Basically, but thank you for raising that particular point. I've got two questions, two further issues then, arising out of that, convener, if I may. Sorry, can I just stop you? I do have a letter from Stephen Crabb MP, which is sent to me as convener, which I will read out at the end of the meeting to answer some of your questions there. But basically, this is just talking about the forward business, and I'm sure that we can answer any of your questions, or take those questions on board at the next meeting. I'm sure that issues that you've already raised, when we get a relevant minister here, will be able to answer those questions for us, but could I pass it round the committee for then? Can I just finish the point? Is it a point you're making about the forward business or questions that you're going to ask? It relates directly to the operation of the joint ministerial working group on welfare, which is meeting today, in which I think this committee should take formal notice of the fact. I think that we have already taken formal notice that the committee is meeting. We don't know exactly what's happening at the moment with the committee, similar to what we have just stated with the committee just now. Pauline, did you want to come in on that particular point? I mean, presumably Adam, you're raising this now because we're about to recess quite soon, and I think we need to be clear before the work plan that we're in possession of all the relevant information. So perhaps maybe you, convener, could make sure that the committee get the report as soon as possible on the largest agenda. I was going to say, obviously, as convener, it's my job to chair the committee in the meeting, and I'd like to make sure that the committee members get their full say, and afterwards I was going to, you know, more poppies you might want to say, and certainly that would be one of the suggestions that we would be meeting to basically ask for any relevant minutes to be sent to this committee. So I think that's basically what I was going to say when we summed up. I'd like to give the committee members their opportunity to come in. So, Mr Linter, did you want to come in on any of the aspects that was raised for the future business? Well, may I add my congratulations to yourself and the deputy convener? As far as holding a meeting for forward planning of business, I certainly think that that is obviously a very useful and essential thing to do. As for timing, I think that's for the clerks to liaise with the members of the committee because some people may have commitments even in recess, which will have to be worked around, but I've nothing in principle against having a meeting towards the end of the recess period, or perhaps it may have to be depending on commitments early September. I would associate myself with the comments just made by Adam Tompkins and the deputy convener that we do need to know clearly what the relationship between this committee is and the ministerial discussions that are on-going. Thank you very much, Alison. Congratulations to the convener and vice convener. I think it's fair to say that intergovernmental relations, good intergovernmental relations are going to be absolutely key to optimising our ability to scrutinise properly and to maximise the work that this committee can do. Yes, we're having more powers to evolve, but in order to deliver them properly, we're going to have to work closely and better together. Organisations like the Joseph Rowntree Foundation raised that in the last Scotland Bill Committee. I think we're waiting for other information coming forward that will enable us to best set out a work programme, but I do think that it would be helpful for the committee to meet and have a discussion about how we can be most effective. Absolutely. Congratulations as well, chair, from myself and vice chair, convener, rather. I fully associate myself with the priority to have a forward planning meeting and to consider the business and how effectively we go forward with this new committee and with the challenge of implementing these new powers effectively. Yes, congratulations to you and your deputy convener as well. I think we're a long way from Remshire Council, Sandra, both of us, and I think it's... I'm quite happy to, as a full-time MSP, I'm quite flexible when it comes to actually being for the away day meeting to make sure we can get this, because I think it's important that we make this time so that we can actually get this work done and get our work planned. Some of this could have been Mr Tonkin's ideas, could have been brought up during the away day as well, but I'm quite happy to leave it in the hands of the convener and your deputy to possibly make sure we get this all sorted out between now and the recess in our away day as well. Thank you, Joey. Yeah, convener, formally. Congratulations as well. Thank you. And the deputy, I look forward to working with you both. Absolutely a forward planning meeting where we can have good frank discussions and decide how we're going to best move forward would be ideal. And as also a full-time MSP, I'm available in recess. Thank you very much. I mean, very interesting first conversation and ideas that came up. I just wondered, obviously, the next meeting we would have would probably be the 30th of June, I would imagine, and coming from suggestions from the committee members, depending on whether we get a cabsec or a minister, we could also raise the issue of the meeting that's taken place if that would be advisable and we could manage to get a cabsec that could give us information what happened at the meeting, so that would be 10 days away. So, Mr Tomkinson. Two weeks away, I think, wouldn't it? So I wonder then if I may ask, ask, convener, if the committee thinks that you might write formally to the cabinet secretary for community social security inequalities today to ask her to supply this committee with a written summary of today's meeting of the joint ministerial working group on welfare in time for us to be able to consider that at our next meeting, which would be in a fortnight's time. That arrangement would be perfectly in accordance with what the Scottish Government has voluntarily and I think very prudently agreed to do in paragraph 12 of the written agreement on parliamentary oversight of intergovernmental relations, which I referred to a few moments ago. It would be very helpful, I think, for this committee to have, at the time that we are speaking with whatever minister the Scottish Government chooses to send to us in two weeks' time, assuming that any minister is available, a note of what ministers are discussing with their UK counterparts today, in advance of us being able to talk with Scottish ministers about the state of play, if I can put it in those terms, in the joint ministerial working group. Would that be a sensible suggestion? I don't see a problem with that. I think we're open to that. If Mr Tomkin said that right from the start, we could have saved ourselves about 10 minutes. I think that's a perfectly reasonable request. I don't have a problem with that at all and we will, with the clerks and myself, to pen a letter to that effect. I did mention before, Mr Tomkin, when you raised that particular issue in regard to the Department of Work and Pensions, and I did receive a letter, which I'll read out, if you don't mind. It came through just the other day there, basically mentioning the congratulation and your appointment, and it mentions my colleague Pity Patel. Minister for Employment met with the Welfare Reform Committee informally last October and made a commitment to return following the elections. We both want the Department of Work and Pensions to continue to build on the engagement that has been taking place with the Scottish Parliament and for this engagement to continue going forward. I look forward to meeting with the committee in due course to discuss the delivery of the new welfare powers and obtain members' views on how the UK and Scottish Governments can better work together. I've also asked my officials to be on hand to offer factual briefing on how new committee members will find helpful about the current welfare system. We also have a pledge, I would say, from Stephen Crabb, to come either himself or Pity Patel to this committee, and I would look forward to raising some issues with them also. I think that if there are no further comments or questions on that, I would say positive note. I would again just hope that on behalf of the committee Mr Crabb to thank him for his letter and to appreciate the fact that he's volunteering to come or to send his ministerial team to come and speak with us, and we look forward to that happening early in the autumn. I think that this is actually a commitment that was made at the welfare reform committee basically that he would attend the meetings. So certainly a letter will go back, thank him very much for this letter that he sent. So I think that if there are no further issues to be raised on that positive note, I would say I would formally close the meeting.