 and I forgot. I've started the recording now. Please go ahead, Vlad. So, well, general best practices for this Google Seas No Docs, and I'm not expecting that you know this since it is the first time for you as an officer to handle this. What would be the best practice in terms of the scope of proposals? Is it better to do wide spectrum of themes that you want to cover as a participant in Google Seas No Docs, or it's better to focus on specific item and provide as much detail as possible? Because I noticed that several applicants right now have very wide kind of area, and most of the comments, as far as I understand, are related to trying to focus the applicants on specific areas where they will contribute. Yeah, so at least for me, and now you really, you're gravely, you've entered the seriously dangerous zone of Mark Waits opinion. And I apologize for putting you in the zone of Mark Waits opinion. That's a difficult zone to be in. I had assembled a sort of a checklist of ways that I was using to assess proposals, and that checklist I had assembled, it was a personal checklist for me, but it had things like more detail was better. At least for my view, was better than less, because it helps me understand more clearly what the technical writer is offering, what they're proposing. The breadth, the width of the themes, the breadth was not, that's not one I would know how to guide on because, for example, Kubernetes is a very wide topic, and yet it's also a very, very intensely valuable topic. I like that a lot, but we also had proposals which said, hey, I would like to do migration of plugin documentation from Wiki to GitHub. We've got about 1000 plugins still that need that migration. That's a much more narrow thing, and yet also intensely valuable. So, so here I'm going to, I'm going to waffle or be a little bit ambiguous and say no, no strong opinion, whether it should be wide or narrow. I've seen good proposals in sort of both, both areas where very, very intensely focus or much broader brush and good, but more detail was crucial for me and a timeline with identified prioritization has been has been really helpful. So it's a good way of expressing, I think we should do this first then this then this. That helps me as a reviewer say, ah, they thought enough about this thing to, to make a viable plan. We may then refine the plan during the, during the time when we're actually executing, but the thought to create the plan helps people helps us as reviewers understand where you would like to go. Thank you. See what are some other best. Oh, yes. English, English grammar or English spelling and grammar. I know this may sound really, really, really strange, but we're looking at it. I use the tools that are already in Google Docs. I don't don't be shy if it suggests a grammar change in your Google Doc session. Consider it if it suggests a spelling change. One of us should be intimidated by thinking we need perfect English language because we're all, well, we're all working towards that me from my flawed Western United States, others from different positions. Don't be shy about that but submitting something with with misspellings is awkward and an awkwardness that Google Docs can help you avoid. Meg, any other hints that you would offer in terms of as you're evaluating it. Make has been a war marvelous reviewer of my writing for submissions and therefore I'm willing to beg her coach. Um, you know the standard thing to keep your syntax simple don't try to do really, really complicated phrases thinking it makes you sound better. Most technical writers don't do that non writers do it. Right. Good. Active voice generally better than passive voice with exception. That's right well and okay my my my favorite one avoid phrasal verbs. Yeah. We don't need to use the phrasing, get up, get over, get down, get through. There are so many so many terrible things we do in the English language with with phrasal verbs. Anybody else cares as much about it as I do about this one but this one has surprised me more than once as I try to speak in Italian sometimes. Oh how do I express this terrible phrasal verb in English. It's two or three words strung together to make a single verb. And again, none of those are blockers. Alright, that's, that's why we have a code review process. None of the, you know, the spelling or grammar things will block progress. You detect some of those in in doc in code review. And all of us constantly make grammatical and spelling errors that other people catch on review. Right. Yep. Okay. Any other questions or topics. Mark, what's under the follow up to the June 29 questions. Did we do that. Oh, we have not we certainly. Oh, we're still going on. I'm sorry. But that's a good question we haven't gotten there yet. Are there any other questions on Google season of docs. If not, we'll go on to other topics. Okay, let's, let's take that good suggestion, Meg. Let's look at follow up to June 29 questions. So what we had was a series of questions that were asked. A week ago today. In our session then, and Oleg Nanachev and I went through during an office hours last Friday morning and tried to provide answers inside the document. And so what we we started with this question can an inexperienced technical writer be part of Google season of docs. We framed it as two different forms of non experience. If you have no Jenkins experience. This is pretty much expected. And it's not a problem. That's just fine a technical writing writer without Jenkins experience would be exactly the kind of person we would expect to find in this, and that's what Google season of docs is trying to encourage. And that person who is a who is coming to Google season docs with no technical writing experience. That's not typical, because Google season of docs is focused on experienced writers who are interested in starting their work in open source. That's not, not to say that this would be a blocker, just rather that that's less typical. Okay, then we had a question on staff project proposal reviews, all reviews are now complete. I completed those before end of last week. If you have a proposal, and it does not have any comment from me on it. That means somehow I did not see your proposal. And then you need to get get that link to me as quickly as you can so that I can give you my review comments as soon as possible. See so we had a question on a long running project. So, and this was a good one because Google season of docs has two concepts on a standard duration project which is 10 weeks, middle of September through end of December, or a long running project project which runs six months. Long running projects have a little more flexibility a little are a little more relaxed the 10 week projects. They have our do a little more intense work in that 10 week period. And the decision on whether it should be a long running project or not is yours to make in the proposal. That's not something that we'll make for you, if you say hey I would prefer to do this as a long running project. Say that in the proposal and include it in your timeline for the proposal. So by us our assumption will be if your timeline tells us it's going to be a 10 week project, we take it, it's a 10 week project not a long running project. Then the question was, are there any shortcomings for long running projects in the context of Google season of docs, any special risks, risks or benefits. And, okay, this was these were just advice on general attributes of longer running projects in any context any software development project construction project whatever they tend to miss schedules more they tend to be hard to predict. And, but they can also deliver more value because there's more time to do the work. In terms of Jenkins and Google season of docs we didn't see any practical difference. It is an option that's available to you as a writer to propose either long running or standard length. And we're ready to support both, both types whichever one you prefer. So, question was, can a project proposal specify the alternatives as regular as a long running it is expected that you will any questions there with regard to long running projects for car or Vlad either of you. Just I wanted to clarify mark, we need to make decisions we as applicants about the length of the project before submission date of this proposal. That is, that is correct. In other words, it would not be possible to change the duration of the project during later. That's a good question and that's a, that's a that's a good question leads into the next topic which was, what if things change during the project itself right. And I would expect that if, if the, if something catastrophic happened in the in the for the selected technical technical writer that they said, I had proposed long running I need to change. That would probably require that we negotiate with Google, inform them inform the organization admins that we were doing that kind of structural change to the project. I would, I would guess it's possible. Because I don't think that there's any strong attachment you must do a long running project if you said you were going to do a long running project, but that would absolutely invoke the organization admins. We would have to have their involvement, we would prefer not to do that but if, if for instance you contracted cobit 19 and said, I have to take two weeks off to to get to get healthy again. If I change completely the scope of my project, then we would probably negotiate and start those discussions with Google. What if I got into the writing and discovered, you know, some hidden little trap there that was a whole bunch of extra work that had to be done in order to successfully do what I plan to do. So then, then I think the answer is, so if we can fit it within the scope it is even if it's by reducing the work that we, we accomplish, we just handle that inside the project team. So this is minor changes changes to scope and whatnot. We just do it inside the project team if we're doing something where we say hey, I thought I could do this and I can only do 10% of that. That we at least notify the org admins, because then the org admins know, alright, we've got a bigger change here. As far as Oleg and I could tell the only time we have to formally notify Google is if the, if the writer has something so catastrophic that they have to abandon the project. We have to inform Google because we, we don't want to mistreat Google's funding of these these 50 people that are doing technical writing for open source projects. Okay. And I think, oh, then we had one more question which was, could a technical writer act as a mentor if they were not accepted as a writer. That's a keen question a very interesting question. If you have Jenkins knowledge. That's the key attribute for a meant for a mentor they need to know Jenkins. If you have Jenkins knowledge, then that would be great you could also act as a mentor. You could become mentors. If so long as you know Jenkins. That would that would be quite a surprise. But I guess I can give you the, the experience we've had with Google summer of code. We've got mentors this year, who were students last year. They're working great. I love the what our mentors are doing, and their experience as a as on the other side of the equation last year has helped them as they help new participants. All right. Any, any other questions or concerns there. So we did have this up this mentor meeting. Whoops, where'd I go fat fingers sorry. I did. We did host the mentor meeting. This thing. And in that mentor meeting we reviewed what I had done is I assembled a document that included hyperlinks to every one of the proposals. And that document is actually a public document would it help you if I, if I show it here. We intentionally made a public document so that people could see some of the things that that we had that I had thought about so let's see. Now I'm going to stop sharing my screen so I can look for it because I, I had a private one where I was making my own personal notes that I'm not really willing to share, but I've got a public copy where it's you just talks about the kinds of things that I was doing to review so hang on just a minute while I stop my screen sharing find that document and I will bring it up. Oh, I know why I couldn't find it I was in the wrong terminal. I was in the wrong Chrome session. Here we go. And it's right here. Okay. So I'm going to put that link back into the original docs office hours notes, so that if you want to you're welcome to review this. You should not consider this authoritative these are my notes, but I liked having the links all in one place to everyone's everyone's proposals. Okay, so notes on proposals and possible evaluation criteria, it is and now let's click through the link to be sure it actually. So this is yeah okay good so here we go so this was mentor notes, and it captured who are the candidates. And so we've got six or eight different candidates from various locations links to their proposals. And I put them in order in which I had received them so there is not, not any thing that should be inferred by the order of the links lists there that's the order that I detected them as I was reading through messages. And then the the evaluation criteria were here. Let's see. And it's you know we can't see your screen. Oh I'm not sharing. Oh sorry it's secret. That's no I was looking for a link and you weren't sharing that yeah yeah the so the link is there. I thought I had shared obviously not okay so here's the. Here's the page. Can you see my screen now. Yes. Okay, sorry about that. I'm talking like you could read what I'm writing. And you can't. Okay so. These are mentor notes that I took during the mentors meeting and things that I had prepared while getting ready for that meeting. It includes a link to all the project proposals that I've seen so far. So let's double check parkour yours is here Vlad yours is here yes so and then the evaluation criteria these were things that that I had thought of as I was going through the evaluation process reading those. And they're just different topics. I, I can't claim that anyone else is using the same criteria or thinking about these things, but these were things that came to my mind. This was one that we had some that didn't didn't seem to have a very strong timeline so we tried to guide towards getting a timeline with specific things broken down. And we were working to get more people as as candidate mentors was a good one for our mentor meeting. Any questions on that topic. All right. Just mark in general are in case if somebody are from applicants would like to get a link to this document which you prepared. Is there any simple way of doing this or finding there is it's in the I just linked it into the office hours document. Let me get this thing back down to normal size. So this office hours document. See, let's put that into our notes, or this week as well. There we go. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, that way it's it's there. It really, when I met with with Oleg and with Kristen. It was specifically noted that I'm making this document publicly visible. So we don't put anything that sensitive in there we don't put any comments about specific proposals typically the specific proposal comments will be inside the Google Doc that the person who's making the submission has sent us the link. Any other questions. I think these are the last five minutes before the ninth of July last meeting so is there any final piece of advice for applicants. They could follow the final piece of advice. I think be sure that you reviewed and responded to resolved comments that were made on your proposal. If I made a comment on a proposal, and it was ignored that probably wouldn't be viewed very positively. So, so that's that's one just as guidance, then the other is be sure that you're in on time. So that one is the most awkward of any to have to tell someone, oh, oops, you missed the deadline, you're therefore not going not going to be considered at all so much better to submit on the eighth two days from now rather than submitting, risking you that you submit late. Great. Well then I think we're at a point where we could pause here now we just had someone new join us. I'm going to mispronounce your name intentionally Larry, are you doing okay. Do you have any questions. No, no, no, no, I'm fine. All right, and, and could you pronounce your name for me I know you go by Larry school online and I'm very grateful for that because that's something I can say. Thank you for being part of the project now. I had not seen a proposal from you. I had the action item to reach out and contact you to ask you if you intended to submit a proposal. Yes, I do intend, but then I've been I've been mixed feelings about it and I just wanted to take my time to learn more about the Jenkins and probably up to next year for when I have a much better. I don't know much about the old. So I want to like use like one year and study the old thing then I could now come back and say, okay, I'm fully grounded with what's check is about and the old foundation stuff. Great. Thank you that that that helped me clarify so you're if you're if you're not ready to submit an application that's okay that's great. And we're we're delighted to have your contributions at any level. That's wonderful. Thank you very much. Any other topics then before we conclude our meeting today. Just to clarify mark. So we need to wait for announcement probably from you from Oleg about future meetings or office hours. I guess at the beginning of the meeting. You mentioned that the board will try to incorporate office hours office hours inside. Doxy. Oh, no, good, good question. So I should be more clear. The that was just with regard to the, where do we store the notes for these meetings. We would like to continue holding office hours, as long as there is interest in them. So this meeting will happen next Monday, just like usual. And I will happily continue holding these meetings until we reach a point where until there's a point where no one is is choosing to come for for help and discussion. So this meeting will continue. And the only thing that will stop this meeting is if people stop coming. Okay. That's a good question. So let me, I'm going to make a note of that one because that I'll I'll also embed that into the into the document itself because notes for this meeting will be copied into the Google or not Google into the docs. Meeting notes document links between the two. And then we'll probably do future meeting notes in the doc sig meeting notes. They're also public. And therefore, then then I only have to think about one document that I maintain whether I'm going to the doc sig meeting or to office hours. Good question. Thank you. I think I think we've hit the end of questions and we've pretty much covered an hour or so. Thanks very much for your contribution. My apologies for not having recorded the first 15 minutes. The notes are accurate for the first 15 minutes where we didn't have a recording. I will post a link to the recording in the YouTube channel for Jenkins under the documentation special interest group playlist. And I'll also embed a link to this meeting to the video of these, this meeting in these notes so that we can refer to them. Thanks everybody. Thanks guys good luck with your proposals. Goodbye.