 Start your message with the word Kent. Lots of you talking about veganism as well. After the TV presenter Chris Packham said, we need to have labels on packets of meat that show how the animals live, the conditions they're kept in. A bit like we do on cigarette packets for health. Well let's discuss this now with Joey Carbstrong, well-known vegan activist who joins us in the studio. Morning Joey. Hello. So there's lots of issues really with putting pictures on packets that might even upset vegans walking around the shop. So where do you stand on this? I think anything that deters people from eating flesh or animal products is a good thing. I don't really know how they would facilitate that though, like getting this horrific footage from a certain farm, horrific conditions from a certain farm. I think maybe showing what happens in the slaughterhouse is probably more important because even in the most high welfare free-ranging farm in England, they all go to a slaughterhouse to be stabbed in the neck, strung up by their ankle and had the blood drained out of their throat. So I think what happens in the slaughterhouse is probably more important. It's interesting isn't it? Because I guess we'd need to believe, if we were going back to whether we had the individual farmers, a bit the point that Claire made, you know you see the chickens running around in the field, how do you know that is the field that those chickens are living in? So we'd need the farmers to sign up, and A they probably wouldn't, and B they were not going to sign up to having slaughterhouse pictures because that's really gruesome. Yeah, it's gruesome. I think they use these happy free-ranging pictures with the grass to perpetuate this image of humane farms and it makes people feel comfortable. But all those animals, whether they're in horrific conditions or amazing conditions on the farm, go to the slaughterhouse with all the rest of them. I suppose a lot of people would say, well actually in this country we have very high animal welfare standards and they would say that we are very kind to the animals and we kill them in the right way. So what's the problem? The right way to kill someone, I don't think there's no humane way to take someone's life from them. And where are all these humane farms? I mean the ones that you see the cows and the pastures, but the ones that are really horrific are hidden from the public's view. Also, I want to make a point like we do label cigarette packets. Cigarettes cause lung cancer, but in fact the biggest killer of human beings is heart disease. Trump's lung cancer by a mile and saturated fat and cholesterol are found in animal products. I know this isn't a secret in the health community, in the scientific community, so why not put labeling on processed meats, class 1 carcinogen as well? That's really interesting because actually we spoke to someone from Cancer Research UK just after six o'clock this morning on that very issue. The only issue though with that, she wasn't in favour by the way, is that for a lot of people who are living in poverty processed meat is the way that they kind of subsist and you might be classing people out. Do you see what I mean? No, but we've got rice, beans, vegetables, corn, pasta are the cheapest foods in the supermarket and they don't cause disease and we're feeding children processed meats from gas chambered pigs. If children knew what they were eating, oh my God, they'd have nightmares, but these are known carcinogens, they cause heart disease, the number one killer of human beings. Why not put labeling on them? But you are here, Joey. I mean with respect, you're making some of this stuff up, aren't you? I mean, if you look at, you mentioned about animals being stabbed in the neck. What sort of slaughterhouse have you been to? Every single animal gets stabbed in the throat. Chickens, pigs, lambs. They have their throat cut. They get shot in the head and stabbed in the throat. They get their throat cut. Their throat is cut, isn't it? It's not stabbed in the throat. It's not a serial killer there. Well, pigs are stabbed. Standing there with a meat cleaner. Their throat is cut. But what I'm saying is, you're employing hyperbole here to make your case because you don't want people to be eating meat. Well, I can show you animals being stabbed in the throat. And I'm sure you could take the worst practice, and I could probably show you the best practice where that doesn't happen, where government vets are on site and you have a complete, clean, and humane approach to slaughtering animals. Most people don't have carcinogenic issues. Most people don't have diseases because meat eating is mostly safe. If you have an imbalanced diet, if you're not eating the right things alongside it, you might get a bunch of tumours and cancer, and your heart goes ping at some point in your life. But for most people, that isn't going to happen. Most people live a healthy life, eat meat all their life, love every bit of it. Nothing goes wrong. Some people smoke cigarettes till they're 90. Some people can smoke a few cigarettes. The average person doesn't die through eating meat. It doesn't mean that cigarette smoking doesn't cause lung cancer. And just because some people can eat meat their whole life, it doesn't mean eating meat doesn't cause heart disease. If you eat the wrong meat, this science is clear. You're going up against the whole scientific community here when you say eating saturated fat and cholesterol doesn't cause heart disease. Nobody said it doesn't if you eat too much of it or the wrong meat products. I want to see this slaughterhouse where animals aren't getting a knife in their throat. Where's this magical slaughterhouse? A knife is used, yes, in the slaughter process. It's called slaughtering animals. I don't know any other way to do it. Pigs get gas chambered. Would you rather they used a hammer? How else you meant to dispatch an animal that's in a slaughterhouse? Well, how are you supposed to do it humanely? Because you've stunned the animal first. Stunning a human being is okay if it's done humanely? We're not talking about human beings. We're talking about the food chain. We're talking about pigs and cows. What's the difference between stunning someone in the head and slashing their throat open and stunning a cow in the head and slashing their throat open morally? So you make no differential between taking the life of a human and taking the life of an animal. You can't seriously believe that. Pigs have the intelligence of a three-year-old child. Now, what is the moral difference between a pig and a three-year-old child? So you would argue that there is no difference between taking the life of a human and an animal. You raised the point that there's an ethical issue here and I'm simply countering it back that, in fact, there is a moral difference between us and animals in the food chain. What is it? What is it? So you wouldn't support the idea that people can look for a... Well, you're saying there's a moral difference between a three-year-old and a pig. And what is it? You want me to articulate why we are more important in the food chain than a pig. I want you to tell me what the moral difference is between a three-year-old and a pig. Because we have a food chain. Because we have a pecking order. Because we have a diet. Does a food chain mean moral? Does a food chain mean ethical? Why are you the barobiter of morality? I'm asking you what the moral difference is between a pig and a three-year-old and you can't answer it. But I'm asking you why you believe you can set that moral compass where you want it to set? Why I can set a moral compass is because you adhere to your own moral system. But we are building... So you adhere to a moral system where you don't think human beings should be stabbed but you don't adhere to that same moral system you have a double standard for pigs. Now I'm asking you what the moral... Yes, because I happen to think that a pig... I answered your question. What's the moral difference between a pig with the intelligence of a three-year-old and a child that's three years old? What's the moral difference? What is the greatest contribution to the planet Earth of a pig? I'll ask you the question. You answer the question. What is a pig's greatest contribution to the... A person with mental disabilities contribution to the world doesn't mean they don't have moral value. We shouldn't treat people based on their intelligence. We shouldn't treat people immorally based on their intelligence. We shouldn't treat pigs... Excuse me. We shouldn't treat pigs immorally based on their intelligence level. That's fine and that is your view but you have to understand not everybody follows Joey Carp's strong worldview. Well, you have a moral system for human beings that you adhere to and we have a double standard for animals and there's no moral difference. Or it's a different... It's a different moral system perhaps. Well, there's a double standard. It's hypocrisy. I don't think you guys are going to agree on that particular point but I would argue that more people are coming round to Joey's point of view because the rise in veganism among young people is actually off the scale which is why you see the isles in, I don't know, M&S, Waitrose wherever you are there is an isle but it was leveled by a farmer at us earlier on Joey that actually some of the things we're going to be talking about the planetary reason to go vegan not just about saving animals but about the planet actually. Environment. Environment. So, you know, Sawyer wiping out large parts of you know, third world countries and quinoa... 91% of animals on deforestation is for animal agriculture because they're talking growing soybeans to feed to livestock it's not for tofu, you know climate change, ocean dead zones all of this main contributor is from animal agriculture alone so, I mean, we can talk about other environmental factors like palm oil but nothing comes close to animal agriculture. It is good to eat less I mean, I don't think anybody I mean, I've had three vegetarian meals this week I mean, I'm not a, you know, I don't sit there as Ian in the meeting Wait, wait, are you opposed to animal cruelty? Am I opposed to animal cruelty? Yes, I'm not opposed to animal cruelty. So, for what reason if they don't have moral value? Because I don't want to torture something So, why don't you want to torture animals if they don't have moral value? Why don't I want to torture? I didn't say animals don't have any moral value So, if it's wrong to torture an animal why isn't it wrong to shoot them in the head? So, it's okay that if I went outside and start kicking a puppy you're saying there's no difference between that and the process in a slaughterhouse Well, is it okay to stun the puppy humanely? Joey, I don't believe you can believe this claptrap You cannot at any level you're a grown man Ian, is it okay to stun the puppy humanely? Who wants to stun a puppy? A puppy isn't part of the food chain We don't eat dogs We don't breed dogs to eat So, they do in China I'm talking about morality We're not China, thank goodness We're a progressive country I'm talking about morality We have standards We have standards There's no moral difference between a pig and a dog What's the difference between a pig? What's the moral difference between a puppy and a pig? A pig lets a six months old when they're gas chambered and stabbed You can't answer that They're not part of the food chain I can't answer that either That's why I'm vegan I'm not part of the food chain I can't answer that question either That's why I'm a vegan I am satisfied that we have a humane food chain in this country It sometimes goes wrong It sometimes goes wrong I'm going to ding the bell and call time, actually Now, but it's been interesting Mia and Joey are going for a fair trade Round two next time Good luck with that Listening to that, what is the difference between a pig and a puppy? I seriously want to know Oh, 800, 7, 5, 6, 1, 1, 1 Some dogs have snouts Some breeds have a snouty face We met a dog on honeymoon He had a little snouty face It's really cute Nice Yeah, it was I'm sure that wasn't a pig Good man, Joey Joey is a well-known vegan activist Joining us in the studio right now You're listening to BBC Radio Kent It is the wake-up call with Ian and Anna I think we've run out of time to do the news Have we run out of time to do the newspapers? No, we've got plenty of time Look at the rest We have got the news headlines coming up Okay, that got a bit heated He couldn't answer my question He kept answering my question with a question which is like classical dodging If you can't answer me what the moral difference is between a three-year-old child and a pig stop eating pigs