 Lawyers and stakeholders hail the Senate as it rejects President Bahá'í's request to amend the Electoral Act. And Niger State Governor Abu Bakr Bailu takes charge of the all-progressive Congress, says the party's zoning formula is ready. Well, this is plus politics, I am very honored. The request by President Mohammed Bahá'í to further amend the Electoral Act of 2022 by deleting Section 84, Subsection 12, has been rejected by the Senate, the Bailfield, to scale through a second reading on the floor during plenary. Despite Senate President Ahmed Lawman saying that the amendment must happen regardless of a court order, barring it from doing so. Now the section requires political appointees to resign their appointments before participating in the primary elections as either delegates or candidates. President Bahá'í had said the section is in conflict with the extant constitutional provisions. Well, joining us to break this down is Jide O'Logan and Abadji Ataguba, the both legal practitioners. Thank you so much, gentlemen, for joining us. Gentlemen. Gentlemen, can you hear me? Yes, I can hear you. Great, I want it to be sure. Okay, so I'm going to start with you, Barca O'Logan. The Senate is saying that even though there is a court order barring them from doing so, they are still going to go ahead with this amendment, ignoring Mr. President's ask to delete that section of the constitution. Now when we talk about a court order barring the Senate from going ahead with this, is there really a conflict of interest here? I think that action was just emotional in nature and we call it emotional ventilation. Because the position of the president of the Senate is that there are three arms of government that are independent on their own, even though they are expected to send a judge to deliver good governance to the people and that the judiciary should not be dictating to the national assembly. Having said that also, there is this responsibility to the other of the courts because whether you talk about the executive or the legislative or the judicial arm of government, they are all to function in ensuring that we have a regulated society that can deliver good governance. And the Senate president probably also spoke on a personal position because what played out on the floor of the House reflected the fact that the House was not willing to go ahead. He is just one of the 109 senators and then we still have the House of Representatives and the others are saying no, we are not going to amend this law. And I said it, I think we discussed it also, that before the president signed, he could have probably insisted and he has to continue now a latitude that okay, go ahead and work on this. And the position of the president that the provision of section 84, subsection 12 of the Electoral Act 2022 that is now law is contrary to the extent law of the Constitution. When you look at section 40 of the Nigerian Constitution, it talks about freedom of association. This new law is not something they cannot associate. We talk about section 42 of the Constitution, it talks about discrimination. It is not discriminatory. They can still be members of the party. And if you look at section 22A of the Nigerian Constitution 1999 as amended, it gives National Assembly the power to provide guidelines and rules to ensure internal democracy within political parties. What this new law is saying is that as political appointees, you must resign 30 days, at least 30 days before the conventions and the Congress. So that you don't throw your weight and the paraphernalia of office into the internal politics of the parties. And I think it makes sense. And we may have the opportunity of making reference for my colleague. We make reference to comparing political appointees to civil servants because we have laws in the Constitution that says that as a public servant, you must resign or step out of office if you are going into active politics. But political appointees are not the same as public servants, as defined by the Constitution also. So here we are now. And I think this provision will sanitize the internal democracy that we need before we even start talking about the general elections. Mr. Takuba, it's interesting that the Senate overwhelmingly supported this part of the amendment, knowing that it really is going to affect them one way or the other, knowing also that because we've seen it happen, we've seen senators vie for governorships and if they're not given the ticket they go back to continue being senators. But in this regard, it means that if they want to be senators, they want to be governor, for example, as a senator, they're going to have to vacate that city and there's nothing to go back to. So one would wonder why they would overwhelmingly say yes to this. There's a distinction between a political appointee and an elected officer. For the senators which you have referenced just now, they are elected. They are not required under Section 8412 of the Electoral Act 2020 to resign or to step down from their elected position. Remember that the tenor of their office is a constitutional issue. It's provided by the Constitution. And the Electoral Act being a subsidiary law in the hierarchy of laws is not in any way shorting the tenor of the senators or those who are elected. So it's not applied to them in the way that you have described because they are not appointed, they are elected by the people and their tenure is guaranteed by the Constitution. But these may apply to commissioners who are appointed. Let's say essays and senior special advisors to either governors or ministers or whoever they are. Yes, correct. It's going to apply to them because therefore within the category of appointed officials and this provision of the Electoral Act now applies to them that they must resign from their position at least 30 days before their party congresses. In order for them to be eligible to contest their election or to be a woman of the candidates who is going to vow for a position. So in my own view this is going to bring at least a level playing field. It's fair to bring a level playing field for all the political actors and those who are interested in vying for political positions because in our country you can look at the way, I mean there's a concept or a call that of the power of the incovency that has always played in our politics. It has weighed heavily in our politics. And the senators in rejecting that amendment really were carrying on the voice of the people because there is so much of talk, so much of pressure from everybody for the political playing field to be leveled. And this is one of the provisions which I believe will level that playing field. Will this in any way make people who decide whoever wants to run for office think twice about it? We're certain that this is what they want to do before they take that move because we see a lot of people just randomly throw their hats into the ring sometimes just for the fun of it, just to be seen or to be heard and not necessarily because they want to get that ticket because sometimes they don't even stand a chance. So now does this give them some sort of perspective? This gets to see a lot more jokers from the people who are trying to run for these offices. Yes, this will indeed fill out those who ordinarily are reliant on the public posts and who are reliant on the weight of their office to push themselves through elections. This is going to really affect them because once you are no longer in that position you can no longer guarantee what is going to happen. And the loyalty which you command as a result of that office I cannot show you it's going to be whittled down. So people are going to take a second thing as to whether they should proceed to contest an office or not to contest. And now you really have to go down to the grassroots and ensure you have support from the people before you put your hat. I mean you drop your hat in the ring. Let's go further into the issue of the Electoral Amendment. I'm going back to you Mr Logan. So the former senate president had been quoted to say that we're not necessarily ripe for further amendments of the Electoral Act. He's insisting in fact that time is not ripe for further amendments of the Electoral Act. And I ask you Mr Logan, when would we be ripe enough as a country to further amend our constitution? I have spoken to many people who have said, I mean I think early last week I spoke with Shoray and he said something about just signing that constitution and writing a brand new one. And here is a former senate president saying well we're not ripe enough to carry out further amendments on our constitution. I think it's all about how we get things done in Nigeria. We had this Electoral Act that just got amended. You can imagine how long we spent on it, the anxiety whether to vet the president or not to vet the president and time that would have been engaged in other meaningful matters. And like I said, the elder said it is better to measure 10 times and cut once than to measure once and cut 10 times. The president has been advised on the provisions in the amendment so he could have gone ahead. It's okay, I'm going to send you this. Please, I'm returning it to you in three days. Find a way of amending this. But let's bring a background to all this. You will recall that the National Assembly in their wisdom recommended that primary election should be through direct primaries to prompt candidates for election. And some governors went as far as loving the president himself to say no that we are not going to allow direct primaries as the only way of prompting candidates. And it was thrown back that amend. And this time around, National Assembly amended it to include indirect and even consensus candidates. And now brought this new clause. I'm going to tell you where the mind of the National Assembly will be flowing. Some governors, for instance, may have political appointees for the purpose of sending them ahead during Congress and conventions as their delegates. And that's why you may be asking, why should the governor have 170 senior special assistants and junior assistants? These are the angles that the National Assembly is looking from here. And like my colleague mentioned, in Nigeria, you are highly influential when you are in office. But when you step out of office, you may be scampering around for those who even follow you. Look at what happened in Ocean State recently. We are sitting at the federal level, went to that stage and wanted to scuttle the primaries there. So you can imagine that they all now. So if you know that for you to even be active at the primaries, you need to resign. Then you choose between having your cake, eating it, or keeping it in the freezer. Or you cannot hold to this public office as an appointee, not as a public officer. And you now want to go and be tampering with elections. It's not saying you cannot be a member of that party. You are still a member. You can vote at the general elections. You are still an active member. But please don't tamper with the internal democracy. And I think in a way, the lesson to learn from this for politicians is that when you are a political appointee, deliver on good governance. And the works of your hands will speak for you. And you will be able to resign and go and get involved at the primaries. But when all you rely upon is the status of your office. When I come as minister, when I come as president, because some names are being mentioned on that. You can imagine that it's been insunniated that the actual general of the federation will be interested in becoming government in his state. And the lights of death. So when they use, you know, when they move around, they have all the siren, all the money of the government. No, no, no, it should not be. We need to start sanitizing. And I think we have started a journey now into bringing the concept of good governance into our politics. Before I step aside on this, let's look at what the constitution says concerning the Estan law that the president made reference to. If you look at section 137 of the Nigerian constitution as amended, it provides that a person shall not be qualified for election to the office of the president if being in the employment of the civil or public service of the federation. You must either resign, withdraw or retire at least 30 days before date of the election. Is that? And for the national assembly, you have section 66 of section 1. For the governors and the others at the state level, you have section 182. So these laws are already there. But the distinction now is, okay, if we have this law for civil servants or public officers, what about political appointees? I just asked now. You see some governors having one run, 70 and senior advisers, special senior advisers at the expense of the state. So when you know now that it has to be with your performance, you create a level playing field, like my colleague wonderfully mentioned. And I believe that we are beginning to sanitize the electoral processes that we have in the country. So I do not see any contradiction in all this. And for once also, the national assembly is now perceived by Nigerians as not being robust and what I have told you that has been underground battles between the governors, political appointees at the national assembly. And whether we like it or not, by section 4 of the Nigerian Constitution, 1999 as amended, it is the national assembly that is empowered by law to make laws for the peace, order and good governance of the country. And here we are now. So it's for me, if they want to amend they can let them wait and it goes through the process of amendment. We have about 7 to 11 processes. Let me go for now. Let me go to Barca. Senior advocate of Nigeria, Ebon Aburua had said that he applauded the Senate stand on this issue and the proposal. He said it was commendable. But then he advised that the upper chamber step down consideration of the bill pending the vacation of the court order delivered by Justice Eco on Monday. Now according to him, Mr. Aburua is saying that going ahead with that amendment was in clear conflict with the subjudice rule which prevents the legislature from deliberating or considering any matter already before a court of competent jurisdiction. He said and I quote, going ahead to consider the bill obviously will mean that we are disrespecting that order and this is an institution of the Senate the symbol of Nigeria's lawmaking body. Would you care to comment? That was well put by the Lenin senior advocate. It was shocking for me when I heard the Senate president saying that the Senate was going to proceed to consider the bill or the proposal for amendment of the electoral act despite the fact that there was a subsistence court order made by competent court. It was the height of for lack of a better word to use the height of rascality coming from one who should know better. The constitution is very clear that all courts created under section 66B of the constitution have the powers to agitate and determine all civil actions. And for every democracy and for every civil I mean country that believes in democracy, the rule of law stands as the center point or the load star that everybody looks upon and what it entails it means that you must respect court orders you must uphold the rule of law whether you agree with it or not once a judgment has been passed by court of competent jurisdiction you don't have a choice. The only way you can set that other side or that judgment aside is to appeal the decision to a higher court it does not lie in the mouth of the senate president to say he was not going to obey or consider the tendency of a judgment that has not been set aside for me that was shameful and for someone of his stature who heads the I mean the hallow chamber of the senate should know that once a judgment is passed he has to stand by it until set aside. Let me push on this issue it's beautiful and just like by Stal logo put it it's a good step everybody's commending it but then if we proceed to make this part of the constitution we have so many laws in this country by the way you know sometimes we talk about the fact that we need to make more laws but I always ask all the laws that have already been made all the ones that are in the constitution how many of these laws have we obeyed in its entirety down to the last letter so I want to ask the same question as regards this particular one I mean we're in campaign season already and we're getting ready for another election that might be determinant of what the next four years if not the future of Nigeria will be going forward it's one thing to have this law it's another for it to be obeyed how do how easily will we see our lawmakers fall in line in terms of this particular amendment are you referring to the amendment section 84 which of the amendment are you referring to section 84 our lawmakers quite clearly like I said earlier do not necessarily fall under the purview of that section because they are elected officials and their tenure I'm not talking about the lawmakers I'm talking about the people who these laws are made for it's very easy for us to have we have so many but then we see a lot of disobedience of these laws we see it all the time even for court orders so how certain are we that this will be followed to the latter Marianne these people fall within the class or within the purview of this section they are respectful if you don't have a choice the law is the law it's unbending and anyone who feels that they have not obeyed the law has the right to approach the forum of the court to decide the legal rights of an appointee who has contested without resigning his position and from the look of things and from the intent of that provision you see that it is a disqualifying provision so anyone who refuses to resign risk his his win at the polls being set aside so for me you can only break yourself against the law you can't break the law at the end of the day you will suffer for it because the law is going to make the court is going to make its pronouncement on the issue Barca logo I asked this question because we all sat here and saw what happened when the president's aid was almost becoming an INEC commissioner of course the law founds at what happened or what was about to happen but then it did happen if not that Nigerians had to scream at the top of their voices for that to be stepped down so this is the reason for my question but I'd like to hear your thoughts Barca logo can you hear me? Yes I can. Can you hear me? That is also what is inspiring the National Assembly we have had enough disrespect of the rule of law in Nigeria and the crisis being created it's affecting everybody so and that is why I appreciate the confrontation in respect of this argument go and amend we are not going to amend we have problems we have checks and balances it is the responsibility of the executive to implement the law so if there is any political appointee that goes ahead and begins to tamper with the processes at the primary level it should be called to order section 15 subsection 5 of the Nigerian competition 1999 as amended stipulates that the states have abolished corrupt practices Barca logo are you still here? No so and what is happening now is that if you trust yourself so much as being influential then resign 30 days before the appropriate time then go and get involved but if the Jewish of your political appointment is more important to you then leave others to carry out the primary conventions and congresses then you have to abide by the resource you see one of the challenges we have in Nigeria in the political arena is the undue influence godfatherism different kinds also you can imagine and if you look at him in this case of Ojo and Onu we had the court held that political appointees hold office at the pleasure of the chief executive and they are not public servants as provided for under the constitution so it got now for instance that has 175 senior advisors and different kinds of cadres of advisors and you are going for primaries and he brings even if he brings 75 out of the 100 what do you think will happen at the primaries but now if you know that you want to throw your weight around then let's see the performance so I commend this law really and enough it's enough a situation where you are a minister and you use the paraphernalia of this imagine if you resign as a minister and you want to go and interfere then go and look for your own security apparatus not the 18 mobile policemen that we go with you go and get your Hilux fans go and get in fact can you imagine that sometimes when we have these congresses and conventions they shut down the governor's system you go to ministries that cannot attend to your file because there is a convention going on some way all of them will immobilize we have to go and support for God no let's rise to the next level let's begin to have deliverance from all these myopic and analog way of playing politics and if some are not comfortable then let them come back later to amend but I'm so glad now that we have on backstage contention between the executive the legislative now on how to throw their influence around and I think that is why the constitutional assembly came out to say number one the president cannot dictate to us that we should go and amend this clause we have put it in the law let him go and abide by it and as we speak for the purpose of viewers this bill has been turned into law it's a law so it's not subject to amendment and that is what the court is saying don't compare with it you want to amend it go through the process of amendment in that sector of our national life you can amend a bill in three days you can amend it in two days it depends on how important it is to you but right now let's go ahead with our elections right now we have delays already in the calendar and things like that we need to move forward we need good governance in this nation and kudos to national assembly by the way Abodja quickly I'll just take your last thoughts so we can round up especially the senate look good do they have a pass mark in the book of Nigerians don't forget that a lot of people have been saying over the years that this legislature is a rubber stamp one but for once they've decided to step up against Mr. President and now I'm asking should people be applauding them or this should naturally be their position can you hear me? yes I can hear you of the national assembly has always been one that they are just a rubber stamp assembly but surprisingly this time around they have decided to change their coat of rubber stamp to one that is more I mean more receptive to the yearnings of those who have elected them so I will commend them this time around I still feel that they have not done enough they are coming changing how they have behaved recently the past now at this time it's a little bit too late for me to shout that we have reached the promised land with regards to their independence I still feel there are still issues which they need to deal with in an independent manner look at the way that this proposal to amend the bill was rejected you can see that the senate president was so eager to tow the line of the president he did everything on that day to ensure that the yes would take the day but unfortunately for him the nays had the day and this in my view I mean I want to commend the rest of the senate body not the president the senate president has shown himself to be an extra an appendage to an appendage of the executive so I will not commend the senate president but all other members of the senate they have my kudos on this okay all right I want to say thank you to our guest thank you thank you so much gentlemen for being part of this conversation we appreciate it thank you your place Nigeria all right well thank you all for staying with us we'll take a short break now when we come back we will be discussing the leadership crisis within the APC and what their plans on zoning might be