 I'm Ann Charles. I'm Linda Quinlan. I'm Keith Ghostland, and this is All Things LGBTQ. We are taping on Tuesday, October 8th, and guess what? This is our third anniversary. So now that we have your attention, Ann, maybe some headlines. I have so many headlines I can't even begin, but I will. Same-sex marriage in Taiwan, 1,827 marriages and 34 divorces. Local man fighting for recognition of same-sex marriage with Taiwanese resident. So we have two Taiwan stories. I have news from Europe involving the UK, Ireland, and Switzerland. In court, blocks major LGBT online groups. LGBT plus film funding, Rao, lands Brazil minister in court. And Brazil artists fear that LGBT shows are doomed under Jair Bolsonaro. Far-right activists storm LGBT film screening in Budapest. Canadians fight satanic sexuality education program. Australia Post, and this involves a visual. Australia Post releases marriage equality stamps. Let me show you a picture of them right now. The people pictured are Beck and Paula from Melbourne, and David and Nick from Sydney. So that's an honor of the second anniversary of same-sex marriage in Australia. Polish gay pride marchers push past violent counter-protest in Ljubljana. Russian gay couple with adopted children, which whom I've mentioned last time they were driven out of Moscow, they're seeking asylum in the US. So I have a picture before you now of them, Andrei Vaganoff and Evgeny Urofev. That's their picture. They're already in the US, but they're seeking formal asylum. French lawmakers approve IVF for lesbians and single women, and that's caused a huge lot of protests and controversy. Gay root pride organizers say clerics forced cancellation of opening concert. And finally, in this long list of headlines, Mariela Castro banned from traveling to the US. So I'll be able to tell you more about some of these stories, Anand. On to national news. We of course have some information, which we're going to talk about a little bit about the Supreme Court and the decisions today. So we'll chat about that. The arguments today. Yeah. Well, I guess there's been arguments already, and it was only the first day, wasn't it? May I ask you a question? Once the verdict is going to come out. I think they argue it for a long time, but they argue it and table it, right? The oral presentations occurred today, and they got the opportunity to ask the people from both perspectives saying, OK, convince me why your interpretation is correct. Now they go behind closed doors and have the pillow fight. And they fight and argue. Which they, I guess they were doing quite publicly today. I didn't get a chance to really read up on it, but I guess there was quite a lot of fighting amongst the judges. Justices. Yeah. Fast-breaking news. Yeah. So anyway, on to judge kills, conversion therapy being for minors in Florida. The old boss doc didn't think he'd be fired because he joined a gate softball league. Notorious homophobic Rick Perry is out as energy secretary. The former Texas governor spent the last few years trying to cut funding for renewable energy while boosting oil and coal. After praise to cleanse the church after the appearance of an LGBTQ speaker, the preacher in Colorado apologized to his congregation for the fact that the LBGT community there was there despite his efforts to shut the speaker down and he led a prayer to cleanse the church. And Ben Carson is at it again with his transphobic remarks. In September he voiced concern over big hairy men. In the bathroom. No. Entering women's shelters. Oh. Sorry. Carson, who has a history of homophobia, goes beyond passive and his behavior is simply unacceptable. A federal grand jury in Dixie Ed Buck will have more about that. And Florida realtor has a transphobic Facebook post, remax in downtown Fort Myers, has since apologized for its Facebook post, but the original post said, please all real estate agents take the time to make sure that you're showing homes to who you're sending, who you're selling your houses to, is it Jethreen or Jethro? So that was Pete Buttigieg raised nearly $2 million, which will shorten him a place in the debate stage. Two black lesbian authors discuss writing life and laws, Uber and Lyft drivers, the First National Transgender Visibility March, 3,000 people in D.C., Richard Blanco, gay inaugural poet, D.C. police on Friday announced they have arrested a third juvenile male implicated in the August 2nd assault and robbery of a transgender woman at a gas station. And Elaine DeGeneres. Ellen. Oh, Ellen DeGeneres, right, was seen hanging out with George W. Bush at the Dallas Cowboys football game. And she's gotten a little pushed back about that, but she insists that she should be able to see whoever she wants and kindness is always important. Can I ask you a question about when you're at the Lyft and Uber driver headline? Yeah. Can you explain that? Well, I will when I tell the story. But I'm confused by the very headline. You are? Well, they did this. She didn't have the coffee you did. I know. They had this experiment, which these two young men did phony profiles of gay people and black people, and to see how often they were ditched. Wonderful. Oh, see now that's very clear. Thank you. You're welcome. This is like the black like me experiment in our youth. Yeah. So it's not often, but looking for a job, maybe you would like to be a program and volunteer coordinator in Brattaburrow. I'll write your application down now. Out in the open, LGBTQ plus organization in Brattaburrow committed to rural LGBTQ community building. Programs and volunteer coordinator, we are looking for someone who can excel in varied areas like writing, public speaking, collaborating with groups of people who are in different locations and successfully supporting volunteers while holding our organizational values central. We are looking for someone who can meet multiple co-occurring deadlines and is comfortable working with the close knit team. We prefer someone who has two to three years of relevant experience. This job is posted in the $30,000 range, which is not bad for Vermont, with benefits. If you're interested, please look it out in the opens website. So trivia before I forget it this week, 1994 out in the mountains, front page article was about preparing for the Vermont coalition for lesbian and gay rights queer town meeting. And associated with that, they had a critique of the best and worst of queer Vermont. Two categories, pick whichever one you would like to guess. Best political organizer, best social organizations. Looking at some headlines, Toronto. Remember there was a pushback when Chick-fil-A wanted to reach out into the international market? Well, apparently that happy, straight pride in Boston was trying to find its way to Toronto with the Freedom March in Prayer sponsored by Christ's forgiveness ministries. I can't make this stuff up. And they were attempting to march through the center of Toronto's gay village, Wellesley and Church streets. They kind of met a pushback by the Unite for Love rally, which may have included the mayor speaking out. They only made it several streets and were stopped. These had to create a barricade between love and hate. And civil rights are for Christians too. And Zach had some pictures that hopefully he was showing while we were talking about this. And don't forget, October 21 is the Canadian elections. We need to be watching this really closely because some of us may be looking for immigration rights. Was that a barricade of bicycles? I seem to recall seeing a picture of that. There were series of things trying to block the way. Bicycles may have been something that had been employed at one point. And literally every couple of streets, they had to stop because they just couldn't go any further. What a shame. The FDA has approved the second, and this is only the second, prophylaxis treatment for the transmission of HIV, PrEP, Chewbada was the one that had been approved, Gilead was the company that developed it and has been selling it. They're also putting out the second one, which is Discovery, has less side effects. So they're hoping it will be more desirable because the patent on Chewbada expires within the year, so generic forms will be better. And wouldn't you like to take this one, which is kinder to your system? And is under pattern. And what was brought out by Ocasia at Congressional hearing with the pharmacy company testifying is why do both of these medications currently cost approximately $2,000 per month when in Australia the monthly cost is between $8 and $40? And again, as Linda said, we're going to talk about that Supreme Court case. And then I want to spend some time talking about the Alliance's supported community forums. And there is one that people will be getting notices via the Rainbow Armbrella Organization, Montpelier Wednesday, October 30th, 6 o'clock at the Montpayer Senior Center. And we'll talk a little bit about some of the legislation that might be discussed. This is the LGBTQIA Alliance of Vermont. Yes, that is correct. Okay. I'm all into context these days. We got letters. We're going to use them all. That's right. All right. May I begin? Sure. My little segment involving Taiwan. And so Linda blows the horn. No kidding, she's got it ready. She's all right. I know. The same-sex marriage registrations near 2000 in the first three months in Taiwan, that same-sex marriage, has been legalized. Another 34 people in the three months have already terminated their marriages. Despite the progress made, same-sex marriages between Taiwanese nationals and foreigners may still be restricted by the laws of the latter's countries, as same-sex marriage must be legal in both countries for a union to be recognized by law. And leading into that, a local man has filed for recognition of same-sex marriage with the Taiwanese resident. The broadcaster at Public Television Service, China's National Day, reported that a Macau resident and his Taiwanese partner went to the civil registry in Hinshu and requested for their union to be officialized. Then of course it was rejected. And I have a picture before you now of the two complainants. In May, I had already remarked there would be instances where local residents were not allowed to marry Taiwanese residents, and it has occurred. The couple has made a legal appeal to reverse the decision with the head of the local LGBT rights group saying that two Taiwanese organizations are helping legal procedures, although Rainbow Macau is not directly providing assistance to the local resident, it's going to keep monitoring the situation. According to the Taiwanese media report, the couple has been dating for four years with local resident, the local resident having quit his job as a psychiatrist to move to Taiwan two years ago to live with his partner. So let's wish them luck with that. I do have some AIDS news, bad news from the UK. The HIV diagnosis for 15 men occurred while they were waiting for a drug. The National Health Service, at least 15 people in England have tested HIV positive while waiting to get a place on the trial for a pill which prevents the disease. Free PrEP is a daily tablet which can stop a person from getting HIV with us, we know. England is the only place in the UK where places on a trial access the drug through National Health Services, the only place where the access is restricted. The Department of Health said plans are underway for routine commissioning when the trial ends next year. PrEP is freely available for high-risk patients in Scotland and the British HIV Association which represents healthcare professionals involved in the treatment and care of people with HIV is calling for the same in England. Why are they doing that? Places are limited and some clinics have had to close their lists but there are still places available around England. Social health consultants say the trial is particularly useful for people who can't afford PrEP privately and among the 15 cases of the people acquiring HIV while waiting for trial places several people were on low incomes and couldn't afford the drug otherwise. All 15 were tested and found to be HIV negative when they were assessed for a place on the trial but then while they were waiting developed an HIV positive diagnosis. When I was doing the research on what it cost here in America in the UK the comparable treatment was around $1,300 a month so there's still a prohibitive factor involved. The cost of medicines for an HIV positive patient ranges from 100 pounds a month to 500 pounds a month and needs to be provided for the rest of the person's life. The BBC has learned that PrEP costs the NHS and National Health Service about 11 pounds per person per month. Privately funded PrEP starts at about 30 pounds a month. The attention in funding is very quickly is tricky. Says Dr. Laura Waters the British HIV Association Chairwoman and I have a picture of her now before you. It's not straightforward but the reality is that NHS National Health Service England are funding the drug through the trial but it's local authorities that fund sexual health clinics. When the impact trial started we had only branded products available. Now it's available in the unbranded generic version which is much less expensive. But the reality of creating more sexual health appointments when our funding has been cut is a very big challenge. This is terrible. In contrast in Ireland 9 in 10 gay and bisexual men living with HIV are on treatment and cannot transmit the virus. They are almost all of them have an undetectable viral load. More than 2,000 gay and bisexual men responded to an online survey and this was discovered. So Ireland is in better shape. Speaking of disappointments in Europe going back to England. Others advocates criticized the Swiss government's refusal to ban gay conversion therapy. Just a minute it's going to be short. Despite gay conversion therapy being heavily criticized Switzerland the federal council in Switzerland has stated that it opposes a ban on conversion therapy arguing that the current laws are sufficient to protect people from all types of alternative therapies. Lucas Ott from Bazel told the Bazel newspaper that banning conversion therapy would send an important message throughout the country. Why don't they do it? Why don't they? That's enough for me right now. Now we have a judge who kills therapy for minors in Tampa Florida because he's convinced he's not convinced that the practice is harmful. He killed the conversion therapy ban? Yes. The judge said the ban may interfere with parents' rights to privacy and parental rights to choose health care for their children. The challenge to the city ban came from Robert Vazo a marriage and family counselor and new hearts outreach in Christian ministry. The plaintiffs were represented by our friends at the Liberty Council and the anti-LGBT non-profit. How do I even get non-profit status? I've seen the paperwork. They claim they're based on the religious freedom principle. Conversion therapy well they used to just lock us away in institutions. Now they drive us crazy and then into Gerald Bostock didn't think he'd get fired because he joined a gay softball league but it cost him his job. He was a child welfare service coordinator assigned to juvenile court in Clayton County, Georgia. He also directed an award-winning program for 10 years within the agency he worked. He was fired, he alleges, when county officials accused him of mismanaging money despite his perfect working record. Pamela Collins a professor at Stanford Law will represent his case, will take his case to the Supreme Court. Which is what they heard today. And the federal grand jury indicted Ed Buck, Ed Buck as we know, well he was indicted in the meth related deaths of gay men. He's a huge democratic donor and is now charged with providing drugs that led to the deaths of Jamal Moore and Timothy Dean. And he could spend the rest of his life in prison. Prosecutors say the 65 year old targeted vulnerable individuals who were destitute, homeless or struggling with addiction in order to exploit them. And because of the power, right. No they were young men of color. Right. So he didn't think anyone would care. And we've been reporting on this for a long time. And well I'm glad he is finally being indicted. Buck continued injecting men with meth as part of his sexual gratification. Three other men were drugged but they didn't die. New black lesbian authors discuss writing, life and loss. Sarah M. Brown and Nicolle, Nicolle, Dennis Ben share their take on everything from colorism to classism. Miss Brown is the author of The Yellow House and offer a vital reframing of New Orleans. The Yellow House finds an epic, fascinating, empathetic history of New Orleans within the life of one woman but her family, home and the place she grew up. Nicolle, Dennis, Ben and her award-winning novel Here Comes the Sun. Which we read. And our lesbian book group. The best book of the year by the New York Times. It was really good. Yeah, it was very good. So a future interview might be with Professor Charles and poet Quinlan about the difference between writing a literary review versus writing poetry. Academia versus young. Well that could be interesting. Be thinking about it. And I have a clip. There is two movies in the New York Film Festival to watch out for. Portrait of a Lady on Fire. The writer-director is Celine Scalama. Portrait of a Lady. It was written and born to be a movie about transgender surgeries directed by Tania Cipriano. So the first clip is Portrait of a Lady on Fire. So hopefully they will be coming to our area soon. Are you going to show us a second clip or just one? No, they only had one clip. Well I was going to ask you- And it's Lady on Fire. Well I was going to ask you- We were going to have access to so- Yeah. Did New York now, huh? Yeah, it's in New York now. And it's running until the end of October so if you're in New York go see it and if not I'm hoping it shows up on other venues in our area. Oh Richard Blanco, which people might know was the gay inaugural poet for Obama. And he pens an anthem for Latinx lives. He was commissioned by USA Today to write a poem that reflects on the El Paso shootings. He wrote the new national anthem to mark the two-month anniversary of El Paso shooting and the beginning of Hispanic Heritage Month. The poem is The U.S. of Us and it's published in both English and Spanish. Alrighty. Alrighty. So LGBTQIA Alliance of Vermont is working in collaboration with local organizations to sponsor open forums in Montpellier coordinating with Rainbow Umbrella St. Johnsbury with the group to whose picnic you attended, Social Group, Brattleboro out in the open, Bennington Queer Connect, Burlington is going to be sponsored by the Pride Center and in Rutland is being sponsored by Rutland LGBTQ Plus. Is this the new group? In Rutland? Yeah. New as in they've been around for a year and a half and the rest of us just pay attention and they do the third Sunday of each month they do this social gathering at a local restaurant, come together for brunch, just talk with each other. The intent of these forums is for the people who have been going to the state house and working with state government to truly be advocates and reflect the needs of the community not what it is that our community organizations believe we should be doing but what do you need for support living your life as an openly LGBTQ Plus for Monter. Some of the things that might come up in conversation is and these are pieces of legislation that were still pending after last year, well when the session ended this May, H207 which Montpellier is particularly going to be interested in because this is the non-citizen voting in city elections and it passed the House but didn't make it to the Senate before the crossover date so it's the center's protocol that we're not taking it up it needs to wait for the next year so it most likely will be assigned to government operations. Anthony Polina says some government operations. What I think is going to be my personal opinion, the issue that really should be pushed is constitutional amendment four to amend the Vermont Constitution so every Vermonter enjoys equal treatment and respect under the law and it will take all of the suspect classes for which we have given protection in anti-non-discrimination legislation and elevate it to the constitutional level which means regardless of what the U.S. Supreme Court does you would be protected here because the list includes race, ethnicity, sex, religion, disability, sexual orientation, gender identity or national origin. It is currently sitting in the Senate Judiciary Committee. Well let's push it forward. Well there are no Washington County senators on judiciary so it would be let's talk minimum wage and paid family leave there were two proposals. As people may recall when they adjourned in May the Senate sent their concurrent with the House amendment after the House had adjourned for the year. So as soon as they get back in January these will probably two of the bills that will be brought up within very short time. We want to be watching paid family leave because the legislature crafted their own bill but the governor has the twin state voluntary family and medical leave proposal the Scott Sununu bill that they're going to be pushing and I have a copy from the administration of what they say their bill does so we will have it available to hand out to people. Good so you can see exactly what it is that's being proposed. The other thing very quickly two things one is S169 which is a firearms procedures bill this is the bill that would include the 24 hour waiting period on the purchase of a hand gun. Isn't that what Scott vetoed? Bingo. However he vetoed the bill after the session had adjourned so one of their first actions could be to try to do a vote to override the veto or they might look at okay can we come up with some compromise language and reintroduce the bill. So if gun violence is a concern as it should be for the LGBTQ plus communities we're going to be watching this. And finally every time we report on another transgender woman of color being murdered people look at so what is Vermont doing to ensure that if something similar were to happen here that some would could not use as their defense oh I didn't realize they were transgender so of course I had to kill her. So there are currently eight states that have already enacted a ban on the use of gay and trans panic defenses Illinois Hawaii Connecticut Maine Nevada California New York Rhode Island people here are looking at when is Vermont going to do the same. In committee is District of Columbia New Jersey Minnesota Pennsylvania Texas is considering it New Mexico Washington and Massachusetts usually what you find is that the panic defense is used in conjunction with either a diminished capacity provocation or a self defense motivation. Okay and then I want to hear what you need. Well I'd like to go to some aborted theater activities first in Brazil under Jair Bolsonaro I'd like to show you a picture now of Arthur Ribeiro who is a gay actor in Brazil a state run theater in Brazil suddenly dropped his LGBT themed stage show gritos prompting Mr. Roberto to worry if it was over for the company entirely under President Jair Bolsonaro. He said that Caix cultural center in the capital of Brasilia last week canceled his show in which he plays a transgender character. We knew Bolsonaro's arrival in power in January was going to be a dramatic turning point but even in my worst nightmare I could not have imagined that it would be so terrible he said I could tell you more about that but instead let's go on to an aborted production in Beirut where far right active I'm sorry in Budapest the B words Beirut's Pride march was canceled but here in Budapest there was an LGBT film screening it was an anti-bullying film it was disrupted by far right activists the event at the Aurora community center in the Hungarian capital but was disrupted by members of the far right our nation movement according to Budapest pride the nationalist violently pushed into the screening room with banners displaying slogans stop LGBT propaganda zero tolerance of course the police came and failed to remove the anti-LGBT activists a representative of Budapest pride said they did not do anything to stop the neo-nazi group and we're just standing silently by and watching police officers failed to intervene as the protesters heard hurled anti-LGBT plus slurs at the participants but did intervene when a yogurt was poured over one of the banners carried by a far right activist we need to send some of the people from Toronto with their bicycles absolutely is there time for me to talk about the Ghanian just a little bit yeah okay there's a program the comprehensive sexuality education program has been introduced for primary school children from age four and has sparked agitations by well-placed Ghanians including of course church leaders beginning next year pupils in all public schools including five-year-olds will be taught CSE and is the comprehensive sexuality education is called the United Nations says that it was introduced in a bid to empower adolescents and young people to deepen their scope of existing activities to attain comprehensive sexuality education known as our right our lives our future the CSA is supported by the governments of sweden and ireland it's been implemented in Ghana at swani which is the former name which is the current name of the former swazi land which i just learned alawi tanzania zambia and zabwe it's been implemented there for effective delivery of quality comprehensive sexuality programs of course um people are irritated they're suggesting that this is a gateway to awareness of homosexuality our christian group should be over there soon yes well the deplorables give them time yeah have been active but according to the director of the gana education service the csc will help nurture positive attitudes open-mindedness respect for self and others non-judgmental attitudes in the sense of responsibility concerning sexual and reproductive health issues so it's going to date in gana good the executive secretary and spokesperson for the national coalition for proper human sexual rights and family values a deplorable says teaching five-year-olds about sexuality is clearly an lgbti recruitment agenda and there's some texts and not modules in the curriculum that will guide the csc program in gana resonate with lgbti activism right forward yes we keep an eye on that to see how the deplorables hold up talking talking briefly about the um supreme court there was a fight uh among the jurors today right fight is not the correct word there was lively debate there was lively discussion there was a difference of legal opinion yeah the basis of all three cases that were going before the supreme court the sky diver the funeral home and uh the social social worker right the gay softball team the lower courts what they were basing their rulings on is looking at the civil rights act of 1964 title seven right and would a reasonable person believe that under the definition of sex when you were looking at what does that mean that sexual orientation and or gender identity would be a component right as part of what constitutes sex right so that's what this case is all about is just the civil rights enforcement act not by explicit language but doesn't implicitly support non-discrimination based on sexual orientation and so we'll keep an eye on that and keep you informed and and we knew it was going to be a lively debate right and there's a lot of protesters out there looking really good thank you for being there um they were there 36 hours in advance yeah now we have a very important interview it took us three years to get this guest but finally we cornered her please watch our interview with ann charles good evening and it's taken three years she's finally been cornered she can avoid us no longer we're going to be interviewing ann charles who you all may think you already know a great deal about her from the last three years of broadcasts but we're we're going to poke a little deeper so you know as i had said when we were chit chatting before you you have already shared that you were originally from buffalo you're a catholic in recovery correct and you have dedicated your life to academia and starting out in political science and then moving to English and literature and that's taken you to various places and meeting the lovely linda but that's going to be an entirely separate interview so welcome thank you so political science what what was the attraction it i started college in 1969 and everything was percolating i was discovering in new york in new york i was discovering my feminism i didn't come out till after my undergraduate time but i was very excited by carl marx and leftist thinking and leftist activism that was all um burgeoning during that period i was gonna say that's sort of the height of the gay liberation front in new york and there you were it was you did you have an involvement no it was just starting okay um and i arrived in september after stonewall okay and so i i really didn't have much of a sense although a friend of mine i mean we were all most of us were heterosexual at that time and a friend of mine wrote or so you thought or so we thought of course and a friend of mine wrote her wrote a paper by interviewing morty manford i don't know if you know him he was a columbian activist at columbia university yeah whose mother started p-flag and he died young um but it was all very exciting another reason i chose political science was that the english department was very stodgy they wouldn't let you you had to spencer and melt and take courses on all these people and they wouldn't let you cross list with columbia so it was very high bound that english department very restrained yeah so what did you think you were going to ultimately do with a degree in political science exactly i had no idea and i remember being at a tea at barnard with a lot of people who had also majored in political science and a polycyte teacher went up to us and said what are you going to do and around the circle we said i don't know i don't know it's like my brother who got a degree in anthropology and realized his only marketable job skill was that he could pump gas so no what were you going to say i was going to say there were um periods when i wasn't an academic also that were very important to my political and intellectual growth particularly between my ma and my phd i spent six years in boston and the reason i moved to boston was that i wanted to be an open lesbian i had discovered i was diabetic and i wanted to have a nine to five job to test that out and that was such an exciting period to be a lesbian i had come out by then um to be a lesbian feminist to define yourself as a lesbian feminist i hope you'd come out yes i is this when you were co editor of the second wave exactly exactly i've got to say that when i read the brief description of the second wave it reminded me of common woman which was specifically to talk about real women's issues things things that were truly of importance and not the good housekeeping kind of is that what second day did exactly sure and you did that for several years two years yes okay and then the magazine it was sort of on its last legs it was processing and processing and not publishing so you know ultimately it folded but it was i went to the women in print conference in 1981 where kitchen table women of color press was founded i mean it was just really electrifying time i was going to say it was a time when they we had a sense of incredible possibility you know they were it was the genesis of so many different movements within our communities that i think we kind of have lost that that inspiration that enthusiasm i'm also concerned that i mean you're talking about second wave sort of imploding upon itself you know and looking at what's happening with our alternative journalism and literature now that we're losing all of those forums but i don't want to lose touch with the you found literature and more importantly you found women's literature and from what you were just relaying about why you didn't do literature in your undergraduate that all sounded very classic male based male dominated so how did you find programs that were going to be supportive of what you wanted to study well i went to i got my m a at purdo in indiana which was my you know sort of entry into literary studies and then the boston period occurred and i applied to a phd program and i deliberately chose it because it was a feminist school oh um there were all kinds of high profile scholars who were working there including the feminist historian girdle learner the lesbian my mentor elaine marx i mean these names may not mean much to the general audience but they had a real impact on you well yeah yeah although um when i was in at madison they were just starting to work on women's literature as an academic field so they inaugurated area five which was a women's literature program that you could major in this is like going to arizona in the ufo's i know it was such a okay you're talking about madison and and working on your doctoral thesis and it's sounding as though by virtue of the the work you were doing on the dissertation it was helping to create this whole studies program well i was there at the beginning okay um in madison and also at the university of new orleans where uh i moved after i finished my coursework at madison um all that was just starting i was the second person in the uh doctoral program at uw as we called it to do my prelims on women's literature there was a lesbian ahead of me um she was here ahead of me okay this is going to be a tricky question spending time at goddard during the 70s that heady time the women's and feminist studies program was sort of the genifice of a lot of social and political change did you find that working in the women's studies program at at these different institutions it had the same type of impact and influence on that segment of academia oh yeah um but i should explain that when i was at barnard kate millett had published sexual politics the year before i entered but when there was no women studies at barnard it all developed you know um after i graduated so barnard was a little new york was very cutting edge barnard was a little slow to catch up but now of course there was center of yeah but we're still not doing so great at recognizing women's study and the contribution of women authors such as jenna barnes who might have been the focus of your doctoral thesis regarding a sapphic revolution sapphic modernism modernism okay so who is she and why should i know who she is she's a very exciting i think she's a very wonderful writer um critics have called her most famous book nightwood an underground cult classic i first read nightwood when i was during my ma program at perdu and the professor was very uh cutting edge for perdu and he assigned it then when i was in boston i reread it in my lesbian book group which was a wonderful experience and then um when i i think i read it another time so when i got to madison i uh i took it i she was assigned in the course but i had already read her several times so i began to i love her work and she you know she was one of the paris lesbians okay an expatriate from the u.s um there was cry the culture there oh i know it and she the salon movement that we never got to experience and she was involved with the natalie cliford barney um salon and wrote a short novel how receptive were these academic institutions to the type of work that you wanted to do the type of study you wanted to explore they were fine in madison because the way had been paved by all these feminist scholars who were working there now sure okay and you're still holding on to that literary connection because i understand you write reviews for the lambda literary journal lambda literary review you yes and that might be a frequent contributor very true very true looking at her job application and and we'll let you know if you get the position one of the things that that stood out for me is when you started talking about your sense of political activism it really starts highlighting after you got to vermont well there was um there was a lot going on before there okay then um if i think that's why i was asking if the women's studies promoted social and political change on campus or but go on well um there was another excellent rich period of my life was when i taught at the university of norland for 17 years and there um i used to say my scholarship is my activism because i rose i was involved professionally in the national uh the modern language associations gay and lesbian caucus um we sponsored panels including panels like gay and lesbian print culture and other abiding interests that you and i've talked about yes um i was director of the women's center i taught my first lesbian studies course ever and i think it might have been the first to be offered in louisiana in the 90s so you're you're teaching in and of itself with an act of political activism combined with the scholarship because my dissertation was titled sapphic modernism and the novels of june barn so um it's been an interesting pairing throughout my life the scholarship and the activism and i tried to combine them and you have a women's discussion group that continues to meet to promote that kind of conversation and that discourse from within the women's community because it looked as though you try to create space for those conversations in places where they didn't already exist i was part of all of it but i never you know i was a contributor but not a founder but sometimes you need the foot soldiers who keep it going and actually give it life so that so that those coming after you as you've already alluded have have a clearer path i will say they're an easier one i would i think i was an innovator in new in new orleans for because i conceived of and proposed the lesbian lit course i came out to my classes um so and i was the there was another lesbian on the faculty but i was the most out and um it was curious there several things were curious one was when i first taught the course i thought somebody's going to vandalize my car i'm going to get in trouble but the constituency of the first course was um at least a third heterosexual men and i was because they had a sister who was a lesbian or a mother i mean it was very interesting and a great experience somehow their eyes have been opened and in our last 10 seconds i'm looking forward to what you're going to bring to us in the next three years thank you for the time we've shared i look forward to what comes ahead that was a good interview oh it was really good and and we were just getting going it's always the way with interviews you know you just start getting going we should like have our interviews and then play them like off weeks that we're not on or something that's an idea you know if linda quinlan ever looks at you it says i have an idea run from the room and with that wait wait the trivia question okay so 1994 best and worst of career vermont best political organizer coming from burlington peggy lures wow best social organizations coming out of burlington vermont gay social alternatives now known is out in 802 and from wooster vermont women of the woods oh i remember that oh and so with that we're going to say resist resist