 Welcome into the original gangsters podcast another long-form addition. I am your host Scott Bernstein. I'm with my Partnering crime my co-conspirator Co-host the doctor Jimmy muchelato. Hi everyone, and we got Benny behind the glass our MVP producer today, we're going to Do a deep dive into the 1993 New England mafia murder of Mob associate Stevie DeSauro Who was a providence native that ended up doing a lot of business with the? New England patriarchal crime family Got into business with Cadillac Frank Salemi who was the boss of the of that family and ended up Killed in a Suburban residence in Boston and then driven across state lines into Rhode Island and buried there back in 1993 It's been 30 years The case was finally brought to trial 2018 when Cadillac Frank Salemi was taken out of witness protection and put on trial for the murder Two of the star witnesses were the DeLuca brothers Bobby DeLuca and Joe DeLuca Joe DeLuca passed last week The one of the final Members of that hit team that was still alive right now. There is One one guy Paulie. We did that is in prison serving time for that but Cadillac Frank died last December Joe DeLuca passed and we're gonna talk about it and we're gonna bring in a Just you know a guy that we have such respect for and is really you know when we talk about OGS and law enforcement Steve oh Steve O'Donnell fits the bill And you know has been a marquee member of law enforcement for a long time. Please remember to Like subscribe and share the podcast We love bringing to this content we love bringing you guests like Steve and and doing These kind of interviews and deep dives into history. We love taking history and kind of tied it in tying it Into what's going on today. So Steve enough of my rambling. Thank you for joining us. We had you last year. We'd love bringing it back Thank you for in for for jumping out O.G. Potigan Friday here so What what let's just start off with you know, we're gonna unpack it and kind of go piece by piece of What happened with Stevie to sorrow? You know do a little bit of a bio of him and then what led to his Demise and then what led to the the cracking of the case and eventually being able to bring his murders to Trial and and convict them Where were you back in in in the? Spring of 1993 when Stevie to sorrow I Was in the middle of my undercover world. I was undercover from 1990 1991 through mid 96 so smack in the middle of that life Were you hearing about me? Was it something that was really buzzy? In the circles that you were, you know running in no, it wasn't you know, you heard different He was not a lucky name Steve to sorrow In what island that was talked about and sometimes when people disappear and that's the word really used on this one It's talked about for a couple weeks and that becomes cold So we weren't pursuing it so it wasn't like mass police came mass state police came down and said hey Can you collaborate with us? It was their case. They worked on Wasn't something that we shared with us because now there were really no leads until somewhat what? 20-something years later. Yeah, I know that at the time I didn't know the time I know now that the police had ideas of what happened Haven't ideas of what happened and prosecuting people are much different and Let's just kind of give a little background on to sorrow He was a guy that grew up in Providence and grew up around a pretty prominent member of the New England Mafia had a lot of ties to New York a guy named Nikki Bianco was someone that I Don't know if there was an official family relationship. I think he called Nikki his uncle Was around Nikki. I think Nikki was one of the people that encouraged him to go to law school and go away from being a wise guy Do you remember Nikki Bianco? I do well Nikki was one of the mentioned your last time Lumen Akio and Nikki be a close to Well, the old much that's Pete's they came from that old environment They trust properly. They did not want their family members around this business Nikki was one of those people But Nikki was very powerful very well connected I'm to New York and be knows and is accurate than Nikki trying to keep his family members and those associated away from the life and So you had a situation where? Stevie DeSauro leaves the Providence area he goes to Boston he graduates law school and he I think he practices a little bit, but really makes a name for himself in the business world as a nightclub owner And then he starts doing some real estate and construction deals through the years he owned Some some clubs in Boston. Do you remember? I think one was called the candy bar might have been The name and so he had experience in the nightclub business 1987 spring and night or Spring of 1987 Cadillac Frank Salemi is sprung from prison He had done 15 years for trying to assassinate a mob attorney blew up his car On behalf of of you know the godfather the most iconic godfather of that area Raymond patriarchal senior He was someone that although he came from Boston Got his nickname really because not because he drove Cadillacs He got his nickname because he was someone who was famous for being able to fix Cadillacs as a young man And did a lot of hits for that for the crime family, but couldn't get his button because he was half Irish Raymond senior didn't want to make him but when he comes out of prison Raymond senior has passed Raymond jr. Has taken over Raymond jr. Was a very weak boss and Needed people like Frank Salemi around him to bolster The regime makes Frank Salemi Pretty quickly thereafter and puts him with a number of legitimate Businessmen mob associates to kind of get Frank Salemi up and running Can you talk about when Frank Salemi first came home? in the late 80s and started to build What eventually would become his his his kingdom? Sure, it would be the real gangster type thing. So Frank was a very violent Offender much more violent than most Reach out to him and he wanted to make his bones so speak those the words we use in the wise guy talk And he wanted to push into that so because of what happened in the shooting at 89 The grass have got killed and then Raymond jr. Kind of having the mediation and when he come together Kind of have the peace but one of the things I would tell you is Historically Raymond jr. Was always seen as very very weak boss, but through prosecutions We learned later that he could never be like his father I'm trying to give you like a basketball analogy like you're not from Rhode Island Rick Petino Was the man the problem is college no matter who took over after Rick It didn't matter. They can't do it Rick did so the same with the dad dad came from a different era You know 30 years where corruption was much different Statutes charge these guys was much different than they are when junior was the boss So junior certainly was not a street guy and he attained that leadership role differently than his father So to your point when Frank came along this is count back Frank. He saw or what his father was and That's kind of a failure to bring a guy like Frank around because he's hungry and so when you bent the rules to make a guy like him and You can see everything has happened the last probably 30 years of who's getting made who's not getting me So Frank inspired to move up. He used junior like they all knew they use each other and basically used his violence in his acronym and being a big guy to kind of Game power and then try and move junior out junior really didn't want anything to do with it That's his prosecution and all the other mob guys got together. It's a look They have to convince him too much And that's me my horse. I want to give up the red brain But he didn't want it because he felt Did you step aside and he didn't move down to do something different life? So Frank? I think from the get-go Probably soar this opportunity in front of him old-style gangster and Frank started putting people around him And he did those criminal favors to get in the position he did and he I'll close with this He's no different from any mob guy in America that he's turned on the boss in some capacity You can mention last night John Gotti, you know what he did to Frank Castellano They you know, they it's a dangerous and dirty business What boss wants to take up the next boss and then Frank blind himself with people Frank is prosecuted and he did the same exact thing that other people did be a light himself with Bobby Maybe we know Bobby's history and now we know Joe's history. So And we'll see we'll see what the future holds with the new bosses, you know, who's inside that We also mentioned St. Laurent nobody knew for years It's saying was working for the government including people like me. I'm on the street working cases Again, St. Laurent not knowing, you know, he's a he's a cooperator And so you just never know I think because they're all looking left right back in front Who the possibility Could wrap and that goes back there Um The murder would you we're talking about that to sorrow They had a fear Frank had a fear that he was going to cooperate And you know, that's they turned out they murdered him because of that Now I think going back with niki if he was stated in Rhode Island He might have a different conversation on that and I think he would probably Have a little more protection if if if the people that aspired to niki's ideology Um, and he was protected by Rhode Island guys remember the boss under boss thing Um, and when he's he didn't have to say protection in mass because he's not a mass guy So I doubt very much if Frank cleared that with anybody in Rhode Island And that could of course Frank's an addicts Um, but you know, I don't think that's ever been proven out. There was a timeline factor there to your point Niki Bianco who helped make the peace uh between the two warring factions that uh Went to war in the in the in the late 80s when Raymond really law or Raymond jr Really lost control of the family and as you referenced Frank Cadillac Frank survived an assassination attempt In the iHot parking lot in saugus, messachusetts had the flea, you know Fled the state. I think he went out to california for a little bit to take refuge and niki bianco helped Bring the peace and and niki for a short period of time Was kind of caretaker of the family in between Junior and cadillac frank, but then niki has to go to prison So niki's not even on the street I think to your point if niki's on if niki bianco is on the street in 1993 Cadillac frank is a lot less Uh probably a lot or should say a lot more hesitant to pull the trigger on killing a steve disarro and in fact I'm pretty sure you know this at first when when frank salemi was When flipped when he first flipped and was doing his debriefing He was he didn't admit to any murders that that he ordered in the 90s And when they brought up steve disarro's name. He says that came from niki bianco He blamed niki bianco for steve disarro's murder until it was discovered that he was actually the The shot caller Yes, it's actually Bob 101 for them that these are the blame the dead guy or someone that can't Testify me there's they're always saying they're smart and they're very crafty And it comes to that and frank. I think when he got shot probably balanced. What do I do? I'm gonna get killed. Do I roll and give up all these guys? Or do I Aspire to do my duty took the matter and then when he got jammed up and to your point, I'm still certain There are probably other homicides that he was involved in that he was never prosecuted And until he's confronted with that, that's why the federal government charged him So he had a deal I'll be a violent deal get him for one murder. He can go to jail for life And he might not get the five or six or ten others that he committed Was involved in but at least he took him off the street and died in prison Um, did you know, would would you say when you're describing salami And I hit the siren Benny. I got to meet him and talk to him a couple times um He was one of these guys that I could kind of tell right away that he had that swagger and cachet that political gangster acumen to To mobilize support Was it something that you recognize that as like wow, this guy is uh Making waves pretty quickly he gets out of prison And if you read through a lot of the law enforcement documents All the informants are speaking about how Salemi is immediately Politicking and going to meet with various factions across new england to try to line up what would be his You know ascent Yeah, and you know most of them putting him I'm sure nobody'll know maybe some of its court records. I'm not why he would come Most of the time It's to pay back for the people that might have been involved in stuff behind that you're the boss You can make sure that you're cleansing those people from your ranks so to speak So the motivation to be the boss is money power but also to retaliate against those who He may perceive might have been involved as murder or not as murder but on the attempted murder But also Those who kind of sat back and let it happen So you know that he was you know Someone tried to kill him and they piece it together differently than the police piece together They see it Totally different and they have to retaliate. It's a year We're down the road. We as the power is the power to do that. He may not have to do it He has the people under him to do it But yes, he was super much more aggressive than the typical dons, you know from gachioca to nico bianco Um, he had Louis monocchio after he really was very laid back Person he was much more of an aggressive personality Like a throwback to Raymond jude senior when Raymond senior was ascending to power And part of that is to prove yourself I think some of it might have been insecurities from frank knowing that he doesn't have the full On the background to get his button to get made You know, he thinks I have to do something extra just kind of showcase and I'm this You know person, but you're also going to showcase to Europe Small enough to run the organization without compromising the people around And I don't need to actually smart by anything. I mean his street smarts But that's you know, you have a boss involved, you know in a murder pretty unusual Insulated from that but that just tells you about the aggressive personality of someone like him I have a question about culture here and psychological predisposition. This came up in our episode I don't I don't know if it will be available by the time people are watching this but we talked about canada kit and Some guys go into this life because it's important to them in terms of their identity and their and their socialization Other guys It's just a means to an end like having a button means that you have more license to steal to kill That to accumulate more power With with salami what what would you say your profile of him was? Was he a guy that like kozenostra like that was important to his identity or was it more like this is You know to get in with the with the in group means I can I can earn more As a killer and a gangster Or is it complicated? Is it is it maybe some of both? No, it's actually simple both exactly both of him And his ascension might be different bothers, but power money That's all the ideology is power money power money and how that Be corrupt our system. So for his perspective, and I've never talked about salami. I will tell you I think I might especially before I was on a surveillance in emerald square wall In massachusetts by myself, you know someone saw frank and body meeting So I Surveilled him and not as an undercover guy just as a state trooper, but dressed in a little way you guys dressed and sitting in a food court and I didn't know at the time, but frank called me and He just that looked if the frank salami look like you look and you know I'm a street guy. So I recognize the street guy Look, it's time for me to leave. So I leave and make way down four sets of stairs to a store in my car and drive away Don't think much more of it. You know, I bring back my report bobby frank together not unusual I want to be deep but deep read bobby bobby told me not knowing was me That frank thought that he was getting follows in frank was following trying to follow that guy Which was me and like frank was walking towards me very smartly If I did if I could tell you and if I had stayed in the food court It would have been a confrontation because he was coming up to me I don't know if he's on not on but he looked and not me realizing he thinks someone's gonna hit him So their mentality is they're on god not always from a priest and on god for us They're on god for who's surveilling them like trying to take them out And maybe it's emerald square wall So it gave me a different perspective than the undercover's perspective. I had of a frank How he lived that way with 24 7 you're worried about it. And you know why because that's all he did He was doing he did this the way he aspired to become a leader is really an aggressive way So he thinks everybody else is doing the same thing and to keep tabs on everybody around you He basically have to kill after people and try and become made guys because in trust Paranoid personality Does not make for a good boss and I'm gonna and I want to quit good Then I think you mentioned star witness. They can't be any further future star and witness of a deluca, but I know I understand analogy so back to Frank, I think Frank's Ego centric much more than any other mob boss in the last seven decades and his growth to power was so quick and violent that He think he thought everybody around was doing the same thing at the end of the day He just gave up and said, you know, I'm to cooperate, but I'm smart on the government I'm not going to tell him everything and it backfired Do you see a parallel with nicky scarfo that kind of projection that like Scarfo whenever someone started gaining wealth and popularity he started to Assume that they were going to try to take him out eventually because that's how he thought See what I mean scarfo's projecting which that wasn't necessarily the case But scarfo just started to assume everyone else was was sort of maniacal and scheming like him So then you start to think well that I just have to kill them because they're going to come after me because that's what I would do Yeah, you know, if you go through history On beyond philadelphia and john gotty went through with sam demano Then he played the tapes and sammy, you know from sammy's perspective I'm always going to be loyal to john He got so powerful and so influential with all the scams he was running These guys are all paranoid same way frank philadelphia. He's paranoid Because he knows how he is sending the power So it's not that the blueprint is already there. He knows someone's going to do is just a matter of who is Sometimes the wrong guys Set up to get killed Yeah So so lemmy takes power I wouldn't say he really won the war But the war was kind of stopped by the fact that there was this big bust Very shortly after the assassination attempt nikki bianco again kind of Is a placeholder for a couple months He goes or is slated to go away and so lemmy comes back into town And and assumes the throne uh just to backtrack a quick second So when when so lemmy comes home junior patriarca puts him with a group of mob associate businessmen type uh that can Basically serve as a bank For for so lemmy to get with these guys and put his hands in their pockets And get some legitimate employment um one of these guys is steve disarro disarro starts palling around with um Cadillac frank Um guys like raymond jr Who who's in that circle tommy hillary who was raymond seniors? a surrogate adopted son and um frankie boy salami who was cadillac frank's son who had all of the the lunatic tendencies of his father with none of the charisma um and At some point right when cadillac frank comes back and settles into the boss's chair Frankie boy and steve disarro Come to him with a plan to buy A very iconic famous rock club in south boston called the channel um and They basically Kind of steal the deal to take the place over It's it's being uh owned and run by the boris brothers a couple greek guys Who it's i believe started the club or or took it over very quickly after uh it it opened and They started they get into negotiations with the boris brothers And i believe there was a i'm gonna throw this to you and see if you if you had heard this I believe there was an a situation where they were negotiating The purchase price at a restaurant in the north end and Salamis were trying to take the business on pennies for the dollar or pennies on the dollar for what it was worth in one of the boris's pushed back on it Or someone involved in the deal pushed back on it and Frankie boy salami not frank senior Frankie boy takes up a dinner plate and breaks it over The guy's head to kind of say We don't care what you want to We don't care what you want us what you want us to give you for the bar We're going to give you what we're going to give you and you're going to leave Now it's it's a it's a very typical I don't know what to say. Bob shape. That was the best way to describe it. So yeah that they Typically would like a piece of those places and strip clubs restaurants that make money They're really usually satisfied with what if the taxes say it's a thousand dollars a week It's all they want. They don't want to be part of the ownership because then they give you a higher-risk business Usually having somebody else run the business for them. It's very common. They become Victims of extortion, but they're willing victims. I mean happen locally here in the foxy lady. That's what happened He's getting taxed the people that own those places Give it to them, but it's giving it to them They'll testify. I think the owner of the fox. They just say yeah, I give them that amount of money But no big deal because that's To the essence of organized crime is that they put the arm on you And then you have to pay them typically because they got something on you Like you owe them money. So they step in they try and take a piece of that way Or it's a local restaurant strip club On the channel or anything lucrative back in 30 years ago. They could get the hands on it They put the arm on you to your point, but um, you and your salinity practicing someone over the head You know a kid couldn't fight hand-to-hand with anybody But you're not going to fight back with them I can tell you historically You know a lot of these guys were not tough guys is a handful of tough guys But if you fight with them, you can't fight back. I'll give you an example I was a collector for a wise guy and I'd have to go collect money. I can't use violence As a cop and so I got a guy that took him was it cooperated with me He's looked I just slapped the guy around a little bit out there taking money No, you can't because you're an auntie agent us so um, it's just they're The mob of Laura We can probably talk about this another day about this guy that flipped and he flipped on the wise guys Didn't call me cold one day. They were kid said I want to cooperate Didn't believe him and met with him in a horse He said, um I live this life. I cracked heads. I didn't kill anybody. I did this this and this and now that I owe money They're turning on me. I'm done with these guys. I'm aware a lot and he did And um, we went up on bumps. We went on wiretaps and crossfitted about 20 people that he sent him You know away in the reverse legal pressure program. He's passed since then but um, I think to go back to your perspective You mentioned earlier, why would they get in this world? um, I think you mentioned earlier until you talk to one of them it's It's just like doing what you do What you think is very regular. That's what they do. They can walk around it. They think it's part of what they want to do I'm never flipping a young man And he's no longer involved in the world But when I did he said you I do I would have killed someone to get a button I was so Improud in this world and when you rate this house he had every mob book every mob movie And they and his uncle was a mob guy and that's what they knew and they never reason they believed in that life They thought of why we're talking now. It's because so many people are so imbibed with how these organizations operating and most of it's just based on Back to a better term, but if you can swim and scare the shit out of people Um, yeah, some people got hurt some people broke got broken legs broken arms A lot of it is is to fear That's a Retribution if you don't do what they tell you because they can read they can write books And I can tell you anecdotally. I was in a vacated social club watching Gamers come in to pay their debt and then me and another guy bouncing each other You know off the walls and like they're beating me up that I didn't pay And nobody can see it. It's behind the wall. I'm screaming. No, I'll pay. I'll pay and that guy leaves Thinking that's all legit. I'm not saying they don't do that people do get hurt A lot of it's bullshit when you leave they leave we're all laughing about that guy being scared the death is going to pay It'll be back next week to pay and then most of the degenerates I need to generate gamblers and then when they get in debt Then I give you my hand they get their hooks into and you could have a legit business You could be Working courts you could work and post up you could work anywhere that they could figure out an advantage for them That's how they operate kind of like a only say fortune 500 companies, but they know How to get their hooks into somebody and that's they know those people on coming police because they already have They're doing the behaving first There's a science to it that that all these guys are It's just it's like an innate reflex. They know That's the word. Why is godology? They know how to cut into people like you know how to cut into a turkey sandwich They know how to cut in and and get a piece of somebody and you know Somebody will give them an inch. They'll take 100 miles and I think again to segue And jimmy and I were talking off off air. I mean, I think the cb. Desar the cb. Desar case We might have said this a year ago when we interviewed you for the first time It's really a cautionary tale Um, and he had been around wise guys. I think his whole life I'm not sure how much business partnership he had and the way that he had Uh, the partnership with solemny. I think it it was more where he was being taxed But in the case of of of solemny Cadillac frank and frankie boy And tommy hillary and bobby deluca um They sunk their teeth into the channel and it wasn't just A monthly shakedown. They were setting up shop in the back of that Um, you know in the back office of the channel frankie boy was working there every night Desaro they obviously had faith in desaro From someone who had a nightclub background to run the nightclub and he was From from everything I can understand. He was doing his best But you had a situation where they were just Looting the place And hillary tommy hillary ends up getting booted out of town by cadillac frank because he's caught skim in the skim And and tommy hillary ends up testifying at at cadillac frank's trial that he's That for you know, three or four years. He's with cadillac frank every day. They're thick as thieves tommy was running. I think framing ham Uh, uh, the rackets up there for out there for him and then they find that there's like A $5,000 missing or something Salami calls him to a meeting in china town bobby deluca is there frankie boy salamis there And he grabs hillary by the neck and says you get out of this town By tomorrow night or or i'm gonna kill you you don't steal from me And I think it was it was uh hillary made a comment on the stand. We said I ruined my whole life for $5,000 Uh, I think he said he wanted to give his girlfriend Uh money to start a a nail salon or something so The business is being raided people are being booted out whether it be the boris brothers tommy hillary uh, frankie boy is getting into A lot of tiffs with there was an incident where he beat up a um a drummer of a rock band that was there by late 92 the places is kind of Blood dry they they switch to a switch formats. They rename the channel soiree make it a strip club It's again Failing it's in the red Stevie disarro and this is where I want to you know get your uh a professional opinion Stevie disarro at some point in early 1993 Is pulled over by the fbi brought into a meeting And told that he is going to be indicted for a bank fraud related to some construction or real estate deals down in florida the salamis believe that he skim in the skim like tommy hillary will And they're convinced That disarro is cooperating the fbi went on a stand in 2018 at the at the salami trial and said disarro had not Cut a cooperation deal What what what is your take on that was disarro cooperating or was The belief that he was going to cooperate or that he was Already compromised. Yeah, it's the belief. So I think We just talked about nobody trusts each other in that business. So you get arrested Every antenna goes up, you know, when you're around the police you talk to them and they don't trust each other So you've got this one skim and that one skim and they're no out of one piece. I know that's an old adage It's the truth that they're better off paying Look if they were smarter They should have had disarro paying your x amount of dollars A month or week And agree to that if they watched the income flow be better, they really retax it I'm not encouraging them to do this but for them to Nicollin dine because if disarro can't figure out how to run his business properly and then other crimes come in So if that's his only other business interest in florida, if he makes a mistake and the you know, fbi is no different males. They know um, this is run by Salami and they know if they can put the arm on Disarro or any other person is being shirt down them to get them to operate It's just a little wine fruit gives you as big a fruit So if he's cooperating not even wouldn't be fair for you to talk about at that time But I'll tell you anytime anybody gets arrested consider Well, he was to be clear. He wasn't arrested He was he was told that he was going to be indicted right and he's you know He's telling lawyers lawyers all talk to each other in that world You know if you're arrested or you've talked to the police And that's where I'll tell you when we would walk up on wise guys and talk to them Some of them will like look I get away from that wine talking because just that you've more than a couple minutes somebody Hey, I saw her He hold on we're talking and we're not you know, so so and so Especially if you're in the public one thing if you're in a Closed place in a restaurant where you're sitting in cubicles. Someone sees you none of them trust each other So if you're going to get indicted they kind of balance the two I'm sure they've had conversations with Disarro and then They're all paranoid in the first place, but this isn't going to be good if he rolls over. We're done Let's do what we gotta do and then I don't think they're willing to wait on those things. So I think there's more reactionaries to your point that This isn't good that either the FBI is bluffing Or but that happens every day in america with the law enforcement that handle these type of cases are always I'm trying to invite people for cases and that leads to the next level because I told you And I know you know this it's all insularity. It's very unusual for the bar boss to be Yeah, well, yeah the fact that he was the the fact that salami was this close to the The very specifics and particulars and details of this contract And we'll get to it in a couple minutes the fact that he actually drove the body in the trunk of his car Across state lines to deliver it to the deluca brothers is mind-blowing to me. This is three years into his Rain is done and He's so hands-on He's he's such a micromanager that he wants to carry a or deliver a body. I mean to your point It's it's a unicorn of a situation No modern day boss would be this close to a murder. I mean, doesn't that tell you about his like mindset though that he's He's still a street guy. It's like even though he's technically the boss Like he seems like the kind of guy that he likes Driving a body to Yeah, like whereas like a lot of the guys once you're the boss the point is you can be insulated You don't get your hands dirty and and now enjoy the fruits of being a boss But a guy like that the way he's wired it seems like like he genuinely Enjoy being involved in street crimes Well, I think to just clarify I totally agree But I think most of that is it goes back to he doesn't trust anybody around And then because the way he is fired to leadership He sees who do I trust I trust bobby and then and you look at the deluca No, not the deluca trial but the socro trial It's mind-blowing that joe deluca can get a phone call from the mob boss Hey, I need a favor. I didn't ask him over as long. I need you move a body for me. Oh, okay Like who what you in being would say with your out of your mind I don't and hang up on but as I talked about joe publicly He wanted living both lives. He wanted to meet his legit guy It was kind of a simple guy doing his pizza stuff Then my boss like They called you up on the phone. He got you got a minute. Yeah, I need your favor It's not like he bullshitted him and said listen Um, I'd like you to meet me at the corner and then when he gets to the corner Hey, look, I want you to drive this car and drop this car off and the guy's No, no, he tells me everything he wants to do which tells me even more than what chris They talk like that on the phone All bosses would meet in person You know, that's just crazy crazy conversation on the telephone for a while. Council wasn't coded It wasn't like I need you to take this guy Raymond jr. Say send him to california You learn later that means that guy's gonna be killed if you prosecute them. You need someone validated in that So I think to your points that he was so paranoid I'm gonna did it. So he's got this murder And he's calling the closest people he knows that he trusts implicitly not anybody else around him Which tells you he didn't have a real trusting circle around him It also doesn't that tell you about his trajectory though Like he's not a guy who was a soldier for 15 years and then a captain for 10 years And then has all this experience under his belt to be more Cautious like right he really was a fast riser in terms of his position in the administration I know he was a gangster for a long time and he was in prison for a long time, but i'm talking about Between him getting his body to cop out of boss in three years. That's what I mean So like he I think that that shows you something and and that's been one of the issues I think that pozanostra has been wrestling with for A long time now. There's so many So many guys get incarcerated that Guys are getting promoted faster through the ranks than they used to because People are going to prison and you you don't really have a choice and then so then what you have is this sort of Guys who are in a leadership position who maybe 30 20 30 40 years ago Wouldn't have been in a leadership position to begin with does that make sense? No, there's no question about it. You're 100 But for friend when he is fired to the leadership position part of it was the other people said yes They fear and if they said no You don't have a point about they knew so it's not like you had a benign other leader competing with him They saw his trajectory. They probably felt it's stronger But let's make him in this position. You can control it better when he's the boss If he's not the boss, he's just going to try to kill the boss another way unless we kill him And that didn't work out for his time and yeah Fumi wants Fumi twice. He had all these wacky plans in the league After david's about flying a drone and going in three thousand You know, he's a little more imaginative than most but think about bombings You know all those things that he was The people that allowed him to become the boss Certainly acquiesced I think because he said he's much more violent than the others that were in that leadership vacuum and he aspired to that because he forced his way in and in To something you said earlier about another motivation for him to become boss at that point Was to have the power to purge The faction of the family that had tried to kill him And that kind of gets in now to where we are, you know, second it back to 93 Uh, it's in the middle of what I call, you know, what I call what I have kind of described in my research as a kind of a five six year purge uh, or or a House cleaning if you will where he Systematically got rid of anybody that was aligned With the faction that that opposed him. We had some of those guys from behind bars still Uh part of that russo Ferrara, uh east boston north end faction that were still kind of pulling some strings on the street and disarrow kind of Fits in the middle of this bloodletting that that that lasted for about five six years and that Cadillac frank never admitted to so you had a situation where I don't think it's a coincidence that that they didn't leave the sorrow in the street They got rid of the body to me that kind of says that Maybe he was a he was worried about what other people Uh in other mafia families or within his family would have thought of him getting rid of I know at that point I don't believe nicky. Bianca was dead. He was still in prison. I feel he died a year or two later but uh, you know these other murders that that he was Either taking part in or ordering were all kind of cowboy style guys left in trunks of cars And and strung on the streets disarrow Just didn't again another to another one of your points earlier in the podcast He just didn't come home one day and there was a very Um, I think legitimate theory That he was in you know on the outs with his wife He was on the outs financially. He was on the outs with salami that maybe he just You know disappeared himself. I mean like took off and tried to piece of doubt that You know, we left for the woman or something because they haven't found his body to your point Why is it left on the street and left for a reason left in the place on purpose We had to hit happen on purpose from Spock state college to right up on federal bill There's always messages behind that that people want to know that um, this probably I'm not really sure how well planned it was. I think it was planned, but then reactionary He started strangling next thing, you know, we kill him now. What do we do with stuck? I still believe in my core if he planned it differently If they I think it was more reactionary murder that you probably had a conversation with him where they were then convinced More than the day before that he was going to testify or cooperate Then you probably had words Strangle him then what do we do that would make more sense to me. I mean friend there If he's going to set it up why would he be there in the first place? It's at your point and he loves it So yeah, I always start to get this dead guy that's got some connection to problems I'll be very him and just leave it at that and we know what it's us and then there's a doubt always more happened That's my opinion. Let's let's go and talk about the specifics of the hit so may 10th 1993 It's the day after mother's day uh, stevie disarro and his family had a uh, a meal the night uh, I was I believe it was The night he or the day he was murdered was a monday on that sunday night I think he had some type of altercation some verbal altercation with his wife That uh, the days leading up to the meeting that he had been summoned to at selami's Home in suburban boston He had been telling people that he thought that selami might kill him. Uh, he was talking to his girlfriend who was a stripper at the uh at the former Channel which became soiree Being pretty clear that he felt like he was on thin ice with his partners Frankie boy selami comes in a red jeep that was owned by his girlfriend Shows up at the disarro house. I think around 10 o'clock 10 30 to pick him up take him to the meeting Uh, they show up at the meeting around 11 o'clock. I believe and very quickly after disarro walks into the selami family home Frankie boy and Frankie boy's best friend paulie wedek Attack him strangling him to death and according to eyewitnesses both Frank catalac franc selami is there watching And catalac franc's brother An acting boss uh john selami who they called acting jack was also there um They have the the body On i'm like the kitchen floor There had been a discussion between selami and bobby deluca the day before Where selami had told deluca i'm gonna call you with the package They called that night to the deluca's in providence and said i'm bringing you the package I think another another thing i'm gonna uh, you know Tie into something you said I think that the first part of the execution Was planned pretty well I think the back end The burial part was was a little more helter skelter Where selami had given the responsibility to the deluca's And the deluca seemed a little bit Not as buttoned up As as you would want to be when you're burying a body especially if you're bobby And bobby at that point was a capo or a kingsman capo. He was selami's eyes and ears in rod island his best friend And uh, so bobby sends joe joe meets Cadillac frank in a i think it was a drugstore parking lot in north providence Takes the body in the in the trunk of from from cadillac frank's car to the trunk of joe deluca's car and in a tarp Cadillac frank tells joe deluca be sure to remove the tarp when you dump the body. It's got fingerprints all over it joe deluca goes on bobby's instructions to the uh, uh The construction a construction site at the In the back of a converted textile mill that was owned by a crew member of bobby's named billy ritchie And they dump them in there But they forget to take the tarp away So they have to go back a day or two later They get the tarp they throw it away And then nobody hears from steve disarro for 25 years a couple months after this joe deluca is made into the patriarchy crime family Sponsored by by his brother bobby in a ceremony that's conducted by cadillac frank And baby shacks minocchio louis minocchio so Again, joe deluca. I want to get your take on this before we get to 2016 and and when they dig the body up Joe deluca is is not known as a wise guy his brother bobby is Uh, he's more known as the guy that works at the bakery in johnston And and later on is known for singing this commercial jingle That was pretty popular At kind of this wacky goofy character no one looked at him as a wise guy And he you know it obviously meant something to him to get his button and it meant something to bobby To get joe's button because I don't think bobby would have inserted joe into this murder conspiracy if if that wasn't important Now I agree. Um, I remember when the board was out on the street Luke was made and you know the investigators I know with the plex like how did that happen? You know calling the streets with the informants and asking how did that happen? Nobody knew Even you know gangsters that cooperated with those Like they're not made guys but underneath that Everybody's kind of perplexed by it and they kept out a pretty good secret because obviously If joe told somebody that might be back towards me and use bobby moving the body, but yeah, and That it just amazing to me and I mentioned before you can't have it both ways You need a gangster or not but the new wave a lot of these guys in the organized crime world We got it in the public people Like them the likeable people they're funny. They're engaging And but they also like the other part of the world and they like to be Gangsters or we can talk about other gangsters and what they way into the crime families that never did anything They need to murder so it used to be a murder You know, I'm not saying we aspire to someone kill someone but that's one of the reasons For a reason can come from a guy And he moved the body. So I think they had to stretch the rules again Bring joe in so it's not like this is some innocent guy and I think some people portray him as a great guy He decided to be sworn in where is he and no it is trigger for him All that stuff really happens. It was proven in the medway Bargain ceremony and I'm going to become a made guy. So the next time they need a favor They can go to joe the looker who's also A mainstream guy where everybody thinks he's not a bad guy and who knows could he set somebody up when we find out later that There's a more deeper involved like maybe jr. One more deeper involved than we actually thought If you don't become a made guy in a crime family, that's you I didn't think he didn't want to be more involved to your point with the body It's almost comical so need transcripts about the top, you know, from back then you didn't have DNA They were conscious of fingerprints and then they were I think wheeling their body down in a Dolly or hand truck and it fell off. It's almost like a movie But as I said, I was talking to Tim White last week on channel 12 a lot of capacity to look up I don't think the DeSauro family thinks he'll be looking for a good guy So that's what I tell people that it wasn't a bad guy. Yeah, he's a bad guy He's in a blood oath organization that determined two guys And secondly, he admitted to helping move Somebody's son Somebody's father someone that kind of thing that really frustrates me when I hear it that that's not what good people do So When you're talking when you're listening to listen to the gangsta stuff I hear a lot of pushback to me about certain guys being good guys and nothing good about it It doesn't impact you That's great. But it impacted DeSauro. DeSauro is a human his family and they'll never go away And and that's the stuff that Is really I would say intriguing or frustrating when it comes to gangsters because they think they have their god I can kill someone because they're going to testify against someone not even thinking twice About your family and most of them have family and probably think about that if their wife or children lost somebody Say what? I'm devastated that we need to know but that's the life they chose to go in I don't think Stephen Sauer chose to go in that life He did choose to associate with those people and allow them to shake him down and the end result was He paid for his life I have a question about you bring up the family My understanding is that DeSauro Left a note to his Kid on his way before he left for that meeting that was sort of ominous Like at least that's one way of thinking about it that He may have had some insight that when you go to meet with these guys, you don't come back Either one of you can comment on that that he did have some sense. He was in danger It was a letter and I'll turn it over to Steve. It was a letter that we didn't know existed Until the trial I don't think Stevie DeSauro's wife even knew that letter had been written the son Testified at the trial. I don't remember how old he was I think it was just a little kid, right? Yeah, and just the letter was basically saying you're the man of the family Yep, they most of them have instincts when they're around these people if you watch, you know, wise guy movies This is another movie Waiting to happen that's the exact replica of Donnie Brasco or casino or all these others But it's really the same thing really turn on each other and you know The heat that Steven DeSauro disappears the family's frustrated the family, you know, trying to find him and everybody played dumb and then don't you I mean, it's not a good it's a good thing they found out and some of them are prosecuting for it, but it's just um To me, I just find the real world Amazing and if you're an investigator now, you're looking at the same things and the murder 20 30 40 years ago whatever it is is of no staff limitations So if you go to jail at 80, you know, some investigators say why chase these guys around Well, because they were killing people and so if they could be held responsible And the family could get some solid side of that because you know, nobody Needs to get killed. That's really the bottom line. I know it sounds cheap but back to these organized crime followers I'll give you an example when Scott, we know, um, Joe died you look at all these blogs out there You're in different places And I'm on some of them some people have been building on them. I kind of laugh like I never comment I just watched and you know, he's a rat picture of a rat with a head off his squirrel with a head off like It's just it's amazing And the other people in that same family, you know, let Joe consider that Bobby's considering that Frank Salami Is he considered a rat? And the word rat is so synonymous in our culture In subcultures when people even kids in high school, I coach high school. I'm not right on that kid When you're four or five, I'm not right on that kid Because it's become so taboo when it's um, that's all trickled down from criminal organizations that made it crystal clear That you should be doing that. Well, maybe you should be Talking to people about it That way we really restrained our own no pun intended on organized crime because everyone's so Afraid even in the government or in the witnesses people you know all peers I don't want to come forward when they say easier. Sometimes you just pay to get rid of them Which is uh, I just think it's Once they do it once I want to back up just for a moment. Um, I We interviewed harry boris by the way people can listen to that audio episode that He was having some connectivity issues and the the audio wasn't very good So we cut the I mean that so we cut it short But it it's kind of interesting to get some you know insight from the dude that actually lived through this Uh, I can't remember the why did they go to the sorrow that they need a cash infusion or something Why did they get mixed up with him and so let me know the first place They just decided they wanted to sell they wanted to get out of the rock and roll business I I see okay, and then disarrow and frankie boy Had heard that the club was gonna be up for sale And had you know brought it to catalog frank and said this would be a good investment Right, and then but they were still on board during the transition the boris brothers, right? And they were they were watching it as it was being cannibalized and yeah for about a year. I think The disarrow Salemi team had taken over the day-to-day operation of the club, but it was still in the name of boris when the particulars of the the purchase was being were being worked out and Yes, they saw firsthand what was going on and then were were ripped off in in the sale From what I recall, I mean, I don't think they had a problem with disarrow, right? It was salemi jr. That was it was frank jr. It was frank jr. They didn't mind working with disarrow if I recall it was it was they might have known disarrow because they They own clubs and he owned right right It was the son that they had was they felt was the main problem And frankie boy was at the club every day causing a lot of problems, right? and so let's let's do a It's 2016 and let's do a where everybody's at frankie boy is dead He died of AIDS related cancer leukemia in 1995 Um, it was living a crazy life. It's believed that he he was infected by a prostitute um or or a or a dirty needle. He was someone that Partook and a lot of that kind of stuff uh Cadillac frank is in witness protection bobby deluca is in witness protection paul wedek at at this point is running around with the denuncio brothers uh in boston working as a plumber and Joe deluca is doing his commercial jingles for for the original tian bakery uh early 2016 billy richie gets jammed up in a drug case At that actual converted textile mill. He's using it to grow marijuana. It doesn't have a license And uses the fact that he knows that disarro's body is underneath the mill as a get out of jail free card uh fed show up in the end of march and start digging they dug for couple days and i believe the last day of march of 16 They they find disarro His body is still or his bone and the remnants uh the remains you can still see his Sergio tacini track suit uh In the in the makeshift grave and If i was a disarro family member i think To me the most frustrating part of this 25 year Journey to find justice would be the fact that Two of the killers Had become government cooperators And were never pressed hard enough to admit their role in this and it wasn't until A kind of a random incident leads to a guy leading them to where the where the body is frank salemi literally Bolts from witness protection knowing that they're coming to get him bobby deluca i think goes back to the uh to the fez and says Make me the the best deal i can make he Agrees to cooperate against and testify against cadillac frank I'll give my opinion and then i want to get yours uh steve it to me I think we talked about this a year ago, but maybe not to me Not only is that frustrating from the disarro point of view it's clear that Cadillac frank was keeping his mouth shut To protect bobby it wasn't to protect his son because his son was dead when he flipped and bobby when bobby flips He's keeping his mouth shut to protect cadillac frank and in witness protection Now he's spot on and protecting each other to frank's to protect himself I said that to you the other day. They just think there's more than everybody else And when billy richie's place got raided and then shortly thereafter They're digging You know, there's a lot of word on the street. This is from sources not from the police That you know, you can piece together say march 1st billy It's raided from pot and he's not charged Then you know several weeks later the place is done up The talk was that billy cuts some type of deal that was out on the street not going for a few months so That would be like why Billy's richie survived that they all felt remember they felt the star was a It's not cooperated You think billy richie's going to cooperate because they know who Allowed them to vary they knew the certain amount of people small number of people that knew they kept it a secret in very long time So we had thought that billy richie was going to be black So just instinctually because The connection is when I mean, I don't have to put that connection getting involved in it But you know street puts that to better together Pretty quickly like to your point when the sorrow they felt that he might get indicted That's came to see him But when he had raided billy richie public was like anybody we've known is law enforcement police promise we say please Then all of a sudden you dig it behind the bill He's only handful of people know what they could be digging obviously Point to billy. So there are so many of these insularity games and players That if that body never got found really rich you'd have to be doing a favor for somebody else Someone else and if he's growing hot, he's paying a piece of that You know, whatever 10 percent juice to some wise guy My guess is a little bit proven that he hadn't been paying Piece of that to a bobby or frank and they trusted him enough and I think So history now you have bobby and Joe and frank all cooperating. Yeah that'd be a frustrating point for a family member that He committed a murder And you can't prove they committed a murder until billy richie said hey, i'm a cooperate Here we go, and then frank had prosecuted that and I think we talked earlier that there's there's no way frank's fully Give up all the things he did I think they probably tried to protect each other because There's a lot of history between bobby frank bobby remember anything in that world without frank And question about having frank trusted bobby possibly Had to be that way a piece going bobby to ask is Really challenge a brother to help move a bond You know what I mean? So I think I agree with you both. I think he's both spot on When it comes to frank Well frustrates me really the most from just an analysis or Really from a moral and ethical compass point of view again, I think we might have talked about this before but I I can't I don't want to go down the rabbit hole, but I just want to say it You cannot tell me the us attorneys prosecutors and FBI agents that were hammering out Cadillac frank's deal in in late 99 early 2000. They were so hell bent on breaking up that whitey bulger You know illicit affair with the FBI and connolly and morris and all those guys They were so desperate to get that testimony They allowed frank To lie about at least a half dozen murders that he was involved in in the 90s And the only one that's really come home the chickens have come home to roost with Is steve de sarro there are a lot of other steve de sarro like victims families out there of victims of cadillac frank that You know their their loved ones Cases were never brought to justice because the FBI was so desperate to nail john connolly that they turned the other cheek Yeah, I think the two really distinct differences because they think the connolly thing and Cadillac are different. I think frank He did his best to not tell the truth And not keep up by leading you up himself and you can avoid it He knew that he's going to get prosecuted for the murder once they decided and why go any further He's not going to get a deal on that murder. So why give up yourself or give up on me? I don't think bobby probably knew and direct evidence as we call it on frank He probably knew from frank talking to him frank said i killed so and so But you need a lot more than that if i can bobby said frank told me i killed so and so You know, maybe there's no body yet. There's no physical evidence. That's just one person saying So you need a little bit more we talked about not to say what you're talking about today About the henry and hit but you've got to get out more than just one proven liar Right. That's really what bobby is you proven liar So i mean proven liar So any good authority to really rip into those cases based on conflicting Be briefings by those two that's probably why that happens. I mean we mentioned on the last pod in our providence episode um With the kevin hanner-han hit from september 92 You have someone going in front of the grand jury bobby deluca Pointing a finger at a guy that's still alive eddie ladow But bobby deluca has proven to be a very unreliable Source you can't put him on the stand as the only piece of evidence you have therefore You know, it looks like right now eddie's eddie's uh in the clear for that. So I know again I don't want to go down that rabbit hole, but so 2018 Salemi is convicted polyelidic is convicted Um, they're they're both sentenced to life in prison I was impressed uh In the testimony of mrs. Desaro Uh in the sense that she seems to have really Taken a a big negative in her life and as now I think she's a life coach And and helping people Get past that type that place that type of tragedy Um, but it was it was heart wrenching to hear the testimony from her and her her children, um Deluca did joe deluca Didn't seem That torn up uh when he came out of the uh out of his testimony tim white put a microphone on his face And he kind of started making jokes What was your take on that? Yeah Kenley pissed me off watching him walk and said the butler did you know the arrogance of a man That helped move a vine. That's just you know to me But if you're gonna be a gangster, that's the arrogance of you. Let's say it's too bad that kind died I think most of that was the show If he wasn't that way, I think he's probably confused little gangster walking out of court What do I say? I think he was trying to play a part so that you shut his mouth and move on Because then some people that have cooperated with law enforcement and prosecutors and said I really am sorry that You know Was this paid for family and they might really need that and hopefully joe deluca Found god before he died and told him that because I remember it from the nicky power Nicky power in any role until he got in jail on this camp and before nicky died He'd been prosecuted for it and went to jail for it Well, nobody knew where the body was they said it from the body off the james down bridge The victor murderers right and then that we brought us to the body which should be a very Building that would be unbuilt When nicky found out that joe on the skin is his beard my point is he felt he needed to cleanse himself in front of somebody else God He came forward to look i'll show you the body because he physically drove us He's a wheelchair we drove with him Showed us where the body was maybe that's something joe deluca should have done Yet today, maybe apologize to the family And that would be the right thing if you really didn't cooperate with bobby bucker would cooperate I'm not sure I ever heard any of them say I'm really sorry for what happened to your family That's I have a something to see what you guys think about the the morality here so Because I think about scott's term a cautionary tale And I want to be very careful here because I don't want people to think i'm being insensitive or blaming the victim here because You know this guy getting strangled to death is obviously a horrible crime But if you're going to swim with sharks and then one bites you in the ass And you're going to complain about what a tragedy this is that this shark bit my ass Well, what do you think happens when you when you swim with sharks again? I'm not blaming the victim. I'm not saying it's okay But but like the scott's notion of a cautionary tale to other people like if you think you could get In in business with guys like this um, and and you can walk away and Everything's going to be fine Isn't that isn't that like being naive? No question. I think that's why um, organized crimes are just exactly that reason that Most people think hey, it's your problem. You got involved with these guys, but sometimes um, you you get pushed into those things because Of those relationships you have it's hard to keep them away. Sometimes you're running with your business and you're trying to balance Let them in but I'm out. Maybe a panda a little bit not thinking I'm giving that shock a little piece of bait and they go away. They're going to come back for a bigger bite Right. I think the message has to go out there. There's no no favors for them Explore everything they can for you and every favor they do for you You know, thank you someone breaks in your house and they go find the person who stole Bring your things back. You know, all of them forever Which means you're going to compromise someone else. So I think it's a great point to make to you is that Stay away, you know and trust going on force when the sun is coming up your heart and body And then deal with that way, but we grow up everybody differently For assimilation where you grow up. You see it a lot easier just Give them a little bit to get off my back and that's why they fraud Yeah, I mean I I said it to jimmy off camera again when we were talking about this and it reminded me of a conversation I had with my grandfather who While it was not a mobster was kind of mob adjacent like to run around with some of the detroit guys and He he ran into some financial problems in in the 90s and billy jack aloney who was one of the top top guys not just in detroit, but in you know in america Like my grandpa and asked him if if he wanted some help he could help him put some money on the street um and my grandpa Told me, you know, I gave him a hard no And uh, you can't get half pregnant with these guys and my grandpa said something that I said to jimmy He said just so you know in these business relationships when things start to go south they kill you first Meaning they kill the the jew or the italian associate They're not the mobster himself or the other mobsters involved in that business are the ones that are killed last if they're killed at all They pray on typically people that I'm strong. I'm physically strong that sometimes it just I've heard it for years in the state government federal government People in business that's just easy to just do this and get them off my back And that's you know, it sounds easy for me to say that But it's hard to do that when you just do right in the joe Depending on what you do for a living if you work in your possible service company Where you have to do the favor of possible comes in and you can get them in that possible You might not even know what's in that process and they're um really good at um what they do Well, uh, you know, I could sit on here for another two hours Uh with with steve we're going to bring him back for another segment where we just talk about his undercover work This was great. I I uh, I mean it's a it's a very it's a tragic tale. Um, but it's a 30 year anniversary one of his murders, uh Met his maker this this last couple weeks. I felt like it was appropriate to do a deep dive on steve disarro rip Mr. Disarro our our hearts go out to his family Now there's only you know Two three guys left from The hit team. I don't know if I would call jack salami a part of the hit team He was there allegedly he never Was ever brought on the carpet to talk about that. I don't know exactly where he is right now either He's still alive allegedly bobby deluca still alive. Um, he's free, but poly wedek He'll spend the rest of his life in prison But you know, joe deluca passed away and and the one the last thing i'll say i don't know if it's irony or Tragic irony maybe that he was buried uh off branch avenue with joe deluca was and uh steve disarro was Buried off of branch avenue. Yeah, half mile away. Yeah. Well, I should say uh, joe deluca was laid out for his wake On branch avenue, which was a half mile away from where he buried steve disarro's body It's eerie, but thank you steve so much Uh, we're a huge fans of yours and You can't manufacture this type of uh insight No, thank you. Thanks for having me. So it was a pleasure talking to you. Yeah, thank you very much So please like subscribe and share We're gonna have steve back on really soon For ben behind the glass and my partner jimmy the doctor buchelado scott bernstein Received for steve o donnell. Thank you so much for joining us scott bernstein og pod out