 Welcome to Creative Excellence. I am your host, Davina Lee, and we are coming to you from the studios of the Government Information Service. This show seeks to give a better understanding of the artist's experience in St. Lucia. We discuss the work, the balance, the successes and the aspirations. My guest today knows a thing or two about balance. She's a forensic scientist, a beauty queen, a mother, an author, and the creator of customizable interactive cards. At this intersection of science and art, there is joy. A big welcome to my guest, Mrs. Joy Matty Quinlan. Welcome, Joy. Thank you. I'm happy to be here with you. Okay, we're happy to have you. Joy, the one question, the first question I ask everybody who comes to this show is, what do you call yourself? Because you are a scientist and you are an artist. So when somebody says, Joy, what are you, how do you respond to that? Joy. I'm thankful for the name my mom gave me. So I don't think I necessarily put a label on who I am, but if I'm asked what my career is or what I do, the first thing I say is forensic scientist. Okay, yes. So you do forensic science and you do art. Yes. So is there this major switch over that must happen when you perform your duties as a forensic scientist and when you perform your duties as an artist? Is there this major switch that must happen in your brain? Not at all. I don't think so. So is it not as different science and art as different as people think? I don't think so because I think what I rely on in science is curiosity. And I think the same thing has to happen with art. You have to be curious. You have to want to explore. And I think that is the way, I guess that's where the intersection is for me, the curiosity and being curious about things. Okay. So we will talk about the art now. Why? But I want to talk a little about yourself as a forensic scientist. You have a degree in biochemistry and molecular biology. Right. And you also work in DNA analysis. I mean, that is like when you think of brain. So what is that like? What is what is that like? Forensic science and what do you do in terms of forensic scientists? Okay. So I guess the best way to explain it is looking at what we do as forensic scientists is looking at evidence that is brought to us and trying to make a connection between what we see and if we can connect it to someone. Forensic science and anything science based, again, it all goes back to being curious, asking questions and being open because especially for science, forensic science, you have so much, there's so much banking on you. You need to be as objective as possible. You can't have any bias. And so you're not going in trying to pinpoint anyone. That's why you have to be open. And so you led by the evidence and you're not led by anything else. Okay. Because when I watch documentaries of cold cases or I watch, you know, CSI and so on, it's always a DNA that gets the guy. It's always some forensic evidence and that gets the culprit. So have we been able to apply those methods in St. Lucia and how we've been able to get the guy based on forensic science? Yes, we have. We have several examples. But the thing is, it's not very well publicized. And that's something I wish we would do. There's not a lot of courtroom reporting. So a lot of the time the public feels like, and I hear that question all the time, there's a forensic lab, you do forensics here. I'm like, yes, there's a lot of work being done. A lot of people behind the scenes working and working really hard and doing a really good job. But it's not well publicized. So a lot of the times you have, and I think some of my best days at work is caring something from the police saying, hey, this case is actually completed in court. And yes, we were able to. And I'm like, yes. That fulfillment at the end of the day, it really does spark joy for me. I think that's why I do it. Congratulations for that. Thank you. So now we're moving on to the other side of joy. The artist. So you make customizable cuts. What exactly is that? People just playing with people and trying to see how far I can stretch it, how far I can get it to do something. For me, how I got into it was I've always loved art. I painted before I drew. But when I had my boys, all of that time, trying to balance work and my children and home and everything, that my art took a backseat. And I needed an outlet and I needed to create something. I cannot be there not doing anything creative. And that is when I got into paper engineering, basically. Playing with people. I remember playing with pop-up cards, not pop-up cards, but pop-up books when I was a little girl and loving how that surprise element is really cool. And so I had already done work playing with people before, but it just never explored it in depth. And so I said, let me do that. Because that is so specific, I find. This is very specific. And you said it's paper engineering. So is that part of your science? Because then it's the math? That's like, right? I'm not sure. I'm not sure. There's only the math that's in there. I guess there is a lot of math because you have to measure precisely. And what's interesting is thinking of a concept and then trying to make it happen. My most recent card, one of my most recent cards, someone said to me, I would like a card with a kick. I want to open it and I want to have a kick. And I'm like, a kick? Because she wanted a karate card for her daughter. Okay. All right. Let me see what I could do. And just, I like that part of it, trying to figure out how to make it work. Yes. So let's take a look at me. So we have some cards here. And we're going to look at this one I absolutely love. Guys, can you see this one? So I'm going to take up the top and then it opens up like this. And so I guess it was for a wedding. It was a birthday. A birthday because there's a kick right here. And then there are the photos and it pulls out. There's a card. There's a card within a card, within a card. All right. This is really amazing. I love this one. Put it down. Then we have this one, which was created for our very own Herba. And we put it up like this. It's really amazing. So there's so much, like I don't know, is it physics? Mathematics in this? This one is, what I like about that one is that you don't expect all of what's inside. Right. It's like you, like, oh, wow. It's just, yeah. It's like a little step. Yeah. And then we have this one, guys. So then you just pull it up. Can you see a rainbow? Can you see a rainbow? This is so nice. Man, this is really cool. Her birthday this year was rainbow colored and she wanted this. And then this one, I guess this one is like a photo album. So it's like, it has like a camera and then you go through and then there's photos and little notes. It's really nice. Really, really nice. So tell me, and this one is nice too. Very nice. Man, that was at Father's Day. Nice. Very cool. Yeah, very cool. This looks like a lot of work. Is there also back and forth like, okay, this is not popping the way I wanted to pop? Sometimes. Sometimes it takes a bit of conceptualizing or drafting. Right. But I think that's where the fun is, that and choosing colors and you know, design. That's where the fun is. So what sparks the idea? Is it just from the persons asking you, from somebody asking you for a card? What sparks the idea? Is it based on them as a person or what? Sometimes it's the person. Sometimes nobody asks for a card and I just sit and I'm like, oh, I want to make something. Right. Or I'm sitting there and I'm like, what if I could make this and then I would go make it. But a lot of the time, if somebody asks for a card, I like to know who the person is that's getting the card. So it's really personalized. Yes. So it's really personalized. The colors they like. What are their hobbies? I've had a card. Somebody asked for a card that was, that one just pops up. It's just a simple Christmas one. Somebody asked for a card to incorporate dominoes and volleyball. Right. And they wanted it in a box. Okay. Something like this. They wanted something like this and I'm like, dominoes and volleyball. How do you put it together? Right. Okay. So sitting down and figuring out how to put those two together. That's interesting. So take me for the process of that. So from the beginning is like, I want dominoes and a volleyball. Volleyball. Right. How was the process? So I would go, okay, so you want dominoes and a volleyball. Is there anything specific that you wanted to see? Is there any colors that you want? So I'd ask that. And I also ask what kind of card is it something? How interactive do you want to go with it? And if so, for example, with the box, there's several different ways you could go. At first, I wanted to make a matchbox looking card to open and then the volleyball's would have kind of spill over. And then she's like, no, I really want dominoes involved. And then I was sitting, I remember this because I was sitting at home and my husband had a friend of his over and he was playing dominoes. And I looked at the little table and I'm like, ah, I know what I'm going to make. Right. So I looked at the dominoes table and you know how it, you know how a locally made table. Yes. I literally made the box look like that. And so when it opens up, I thought of, okay, for the ball, you have the balls, you have the net. So I created like a little net with the ball smashing, kind of a ball smashing through. Oh, wow. So yeah, that's how it Okay. Sometimes things spark my in my, like I'm something goes, I'm like, oh, yes. So like, you see the table and you think, oh, okay, that's an idea. Okay. So this show is a lot, there's a deal, a lot of balance. Right. Right. This is really what the show is about. So how do you balance your nine to five, which is very demanding? I can imagine with something like this. Yes. So this happens in the miracle morning at two o'clock or three o'clock in the morning when everybody's asleep and everything is quiet and peaceful. That's when I go to work. I feel like a little elf that gets up and then makes the car sometimes because some people don't know what I do. And so they probably figure that this is, this is it. They don't know me. And then when I tell them or somebody's like, can I get a card for tomorrow? I'm like, no, you can't get a card tomorrow because it takes, you know, it takes time. And when they realize, oh, you do this like a two, wow, like, oh, wow. Yeah, but it's a two in the morning. So making a two. So is there any way does your art in any way influence your science work? Or does your science work influence your art in any way? Let's see. I think, I think they do. Because my science work gives me what it gave me, especially all the experience that I've been science, gave me, I think a well-roundedness. I think that's what science gives you. And I think any scientist will tell you that as you tend to have to think, especially as a forensic scientist, you have to think outside of the box. Imagine having evidence in front of you. You don't have a lot of information because you don't really want a lot of information too. And you have to think like a criminal. You have to think like a scientist. You have to kind of think and think, okay, so if this is the case, then I need to look at this. If this isn't the case, you know. So for me, that is where science is influencing my art because I am open to questioning everything and looking at. So if I have an idea, I never have one idea. I probably have about five that I have to choose from. So that is what it does for me. And I think my art now influences my work, not necessarily through examining evidence, but putting systems in place. Because I also do quality management at the lab. And thinking through systems and thinking, okay, how does this affect that is really important. And so I think that's where the art influences the work that I do in science. Yeah. A lot of people I talk to, even some of the guests that are on this show, they're artists and they have a nine to five. But the nine to five is really to support the art. And if it was financially possible, they would not be doing the nine to five. They would just be concentrating on the art. So for you, what is it? Is it just that you would like to do both? Or is it that if you had a choice between one? Marie, I don't know if you know who Marie Folio is. Marie Folio is she's the internet personality also. She has her own business and she's an American, but she uses the term multi-passionate. Okay. And I think that's what I am. I would not give up my nine to five. Either one. No, I would not. I love being a forensic scientist. I've wanted to do this from the time I was 14. That's the one thing I can tell you I knew. Right. But I knew for sure that I wanted to do. Okay. Yes. But I don't think I would give it up. Okay. So at the lab, you deal with quality management. You describe yourself as one that's obsessed with quality, healthy obsession, right? How does one ensure quality in an area like art, which is very subjective? Okay. What would you think? What can you apply from quality management in art? And you know, what do you think you can take? There's a lot you can take. I think quality is, it's part of everyday life. A lot of people probably think of it as just, you know, a product kind of thing, but it's not. It's, you can apply it to your relationships. You can really apply it to art. For art, I think, again, it comes back a lot of what quality management is about. It's about customer service. So, again, listening to who your customer is and not necessarily where somebody asks you to do something for them, but just think of who you're doing it for. So you're a painter, you know, really knowing what you're painting, what your niche is, and then also having for, I can give you an example of my work. Sometimes I make a card and there's a smudge and nobody else will see. Well, you can see it. I can see it. That card does not go out. Right. No. And there are times when my husband goes, I cannot even see what you're talking about. And I can see that it's not too straight. I'm like, I have to scrap that. Yeah. Yeah. So those details, you know, that they say the devil is in the details, that's what it is. For me, like I really need to make sure that what for me, it's if I would not accept it or if I wouldn't want it for myself, then I wouldn't give it to anybody else. So when somebody gets a card from you, they're getting your best. Yes. Okay. That's a good deal. Yes. They are getting my best. Okay. So you're not, you don't just make cards. You're also an author. Yes. Bilingual children's book. Yes. Tell me about that. Like what, I mean, like you're not doing it now. Well, it's not published. I'm really hoping to get it published. I'm working on that. But it's, it's a love affair for our culture. Okay. I have always loved the Senmushian culture. I think that it's not highlighted enough. Okay. And so when I was younger, my mom, I remember any time there was no electricity, my mom would tell us Coppelapé stories. Okay. All of the crazy things Coppelapé did, right? And I, I love books. I love story. So I, I don't know. I just, I'm like, no, Mike, and I want that for my kids. I want them to experience that. So I wrote a book called La Chilape. Okay. And it's about Coppelapé and how he lost, how his tail got shot. Okay. And so that is, it's just a fun story, but I wanted Creole featured. I didn't want it to be an English story, because I think, I feel like we don't even know our own Creole. And some, most people don't know how to read it. Most people don't know how to spell. And so I figured if it was a children's book and it's bilingual, they can make that. Okay. It's almost like teaching the Creole. Yes. In the book. Yes. In the book. Okay. So then how do you mentally make space for a project like that mentally? How do you mentally make space? I mean, with work, with the cards and to write a story, it's, it takes time. Yes. Let's see. I honestly, some, some of the things I can tell you, I don't feel like I do with them. I feel like I'm again, a channel that, you know, God is saying, oh, well, I really want this into the world. So I need you to do it. Because there are times for that story, it nagged me for years, literally years. I always had that story. And like every time I think it, I'm like, okay, it's gone. It keeps, it comes back. And I'm like, okay, I have to put it down. I just need to do it. And there are several other other stories that I want to work on. And that's what it is. It's nagging. It's like, you have to do this. You must put it down. So you're just a channel. Yes. So not even with the cards, there are times when I have to make a card and I have no clue what I'm going to make. How am I going to do that? I think I'm going to tell the person I can't do that. Right. And I sit down and it comes. I'm like, okay, well, I kid you not. Every time I do that, I'm like, thank you, God. That was all you, not me. Because you're having a competition if our last gets a rose. And we were speaking about that. And it's almost like, this is the closest you can get to God being a creative person that we're blessed and highly favored because we are His favorites, you know? I think it's important to recognize that it's not you doing. Well, I don't think that it's you doing the work. It's your channel for it. So are there other like-minded persons like yourself who are the scientists and the artists? I would imagine it's sort of a small community. But have you found your tribe? Have you found those people who? My tribe is diverse. It's not specific to just- No. I think I need that too because I am. I think every artist has a little crazy. And you need people to ground you. So a lot of the people around me ground me. They are the Bussans. They're the more logical people. Like my husband is a totally logical person. I would think you'll be quite logical. Very logical. Logical scientifically. But otherwise, when the artist, I think the artist comes out, I am dominated by the artist or anything. And in my personality for sure. So I am, a lot of the people in my life are very logical people. They tend to ground me and say, and guide me in that sense. And I have a very small circle. So it's important to find for you those grounding people or people who are like-minded, such as yourself. Do you look for both? Although that look, I guess they come into your- Yes. I think I attract them for some reason. I don't know why. I have a specific kind of person. I tend to attract them like, how did you get hair? I guess it's the same with the spiritual elements of like, you know, it gets downloaded into you. The people around you, it's the same thing. So do you have somebody that you look to for guidance? A mentor? Even if it's in your work as a scientist, your work as an artist, is there somebody that you found as a mentor that you've looked to? I've found a mentor for quality. And that's Ms. Fetticombe. She is amazing. Yes. In terms of science, I don't, I can't, I think, I always say this, and it might seem strange, but I think my mentor is a fictional character with Nancy Drew. Because that is the way the love for science came from and being curious and this whole detective-like thought process. In terms of art, I do think I have one person that I look to. Okay. Well, let's take a look at some of Joy's work. We're gonna take a look at some photos right now. Okay, let's kind of roll that Roger. Thanks. Okay, so that was Joy's work. The amazing stuff, Joy. And so if you want to see more of Joy's work or if you're interested in getting some a card from her, you can, these are handles and you can log on. So, so Joy, tell me what advice would you have for someone who is in the uncommon position of having this love for art and for science? What kind of advice would you give to them? Because it's not many people I would think, unless there are and I don't know. Maybe. For me, how I would answer that is not necessarily just for science and art, but just in general. When I was younger, I think still now a lot of the advice is just to focus on one thing, stick to that. And what I've recognized is that I can't just stick to that one thing. I need to make that shift. And so for persons who have that experience, because I think a lot of people probably do and just feel like something's wrong with them. Because I felt like something was wrong with me. Like, do you think people said like, okay, she can't focus? She can't. Yes, I was always too restless in school. My mom always said, sure, you need to focus. Settle down. I was always a very restless person. And I think that what's important is for you to recognize what you're good at, recognize what your strengths are, recognize what you love, and go after that. Stop putting yourself in a box and trying to figure, okay, this is what I have to do. But really step out and take control of what you owe. You know, really take charge of what you love and what you like and do that. That's what I, when I heard the two multi-passionate, I was like, yes. Okay, that's me. That's me. I like that. I'm going to just grab hold of that and stick to that. Right. So then how does one achieve excellence in the chosen field? Do you think there is a specific formula, like in terms of like your science and all? Is there a specific formula, a bit of this, a bit of that? What is it, do you think in terms of achieving excellence? In terms of excellence, for me, excellence is giving your best. And I got that from my mom from very young. I was always told, no matter what you are going to be, give your best. You can be someone picking up garbage on the road. You can be somebody walking a dog. You can be a teacher, a doctor. Just give your best. And for me, that is what excellence is. You, whatever you do, put your best into it. Don't do it in a half, like half. Don't give half for me. And I struggle with this in all areas of my life, because I'm an all-nothing kind of person. I give my all and it affects a lot of who I am. So, for example, in my work, sometimes I don't know when to stop and say, okay, Joy, you've done enough and you don't have to, you know, have to keep picking at it. And I think for me, that's where quality has helped me, because I've recognized that it's all about improvement. It's all about progress. Instead of trying to make it perfect, you know, just always making it better every time. So, how do you know when you hit the mark? Because if you're making a cut, how do you know when you hit the mark? For art, well, it comes naturally for me. For art, I know if I put anything more on something, that's too much. For everything else, that's not tangible, is where I kind of lose focus. I have to stop myself. That's where the people that you spoke about help me. They ground me. They're like, hey, you've done enough. You don't have to do any more than this. So, that all-or-nothing kind of thing, kind of, it's a good and a bad thing. Because the question I ask a lot of my guests is, do you think that we settle, we settle in this country? Do you think that we settle for mediocre? Like, people think their first draft is their final draft, you know, that kind of thing. Have you had that feeling that you see something that's like, no, this person, do you think you're a little judgmental in that area? I'm always judgmental. I feel I am. Right, right. But generally, is that your experience that you think that people are settling for mediocre? Like, I can see where you can push more and you're settling in this. I don't think that they're settling for mediocre. I just feel like, for me, sometimes I wish we had that. What's the word? Not standard, but I wish we had more pride. I feel like we don't have, when I think of, and I say this a lot, when I think of Jamaica or Trinidad or Barbados, they have this pride that you can't talk about. Like, you know, you talk about, you say anything bad and they're at you, right? And they, they have the, you just meet them and they just have that sense of pride. I honestly don't think that we have that. It's not a knock. I'm not trying to knock anybody, but we don't have the national pride that being a Saint Lucia and this is who I am. And for me, that is where we're lacking. But in terms of giving and doing, Saint Lucia has so much to offer. I've met loads of people in the arts in other areas. I'm like, wow, like this exists and nobody knows about it. And so for me, that is the way I feel that we can do better. And if we instill that pride or if we recognize all of this wealth that we have, we probably would, you know, cultivate that pride in our people. How do you think we could reckon? How do you think it is still something that can be taught? How can one recognize what we have? And I don't know if it's something that can be taught. I think it's just not out there enough. I feel like it's still, people still have everything like, oh, well, yeah. Right. This is, this is, this is it. It's not an apologetic difference. Right. This is not. I don't feel like it's enough. Like you, and I make this example of Jamaicans. They don't apologize for who they are. They're like, this is me. This is, they put their green and their gold and that is it. You don't see that with, well, for me, I don't see that with sanctions. I'm like, on Independence Day, we do this or National Day, we do this, but it's not, yes, it's not unapologetic. This is me, take it or leave it. Right. Yeah. And with me, like we have that. So for me, that is where we're lacking. Okay. So is, do you have an ultimate goal? Is there an ultimate goal for you that when you, when you get to that point, then you can say, not just I have arrived, but I no longer need to pick at this. This is it. You know, it's like quality assured. Right. I have arrived. Do you see, do you have an ultimate goal of something? And what, what will, what is that thing when you get to it that you'll know I am satisfied with that? Funny enough, I know how to answer this question and I don't know how to answer this question because I am a person who is very purpose driven. I am not, my family and my husband always laughs. They're like, I don't understand how you're not, I'm not fueled by wealth or like I do like, I don't necessarily need material things. And I'm always confusing them like, but like I said, at the end for me, when I can give back or for example, one of the reasons why I love my job so much, especially when I know, okay, this victim got justice or this family got justice. I kid you not, if I get that, that information at 9am or 8am, that whole day, you can throw anything at me and my day is made. You cannot take that away. So for me, I don't think there's anything tangible, like there's nothing tangible for me. It's really a feeling, a purpose that I feel like if I once that is met, I am good. So it's a continuous thing? Yes. Even with the cards, I make the cards and what brings me the most joy is hearing somebody had a great experience with them. I remember I made this card. It was a makeup. I was told the person is very girly and they wanted something, you know, really girly. So I made a card that looked like a makeup palette. Okay. And when the recipient got it, she was like, literally touching it, thinking that it was makeup. Right. And that alone, I was like, really? She was like, my God, she really loved the card. And I'm like, a card did that great. So for me, that is what sparks everything for me. It's not necessarily putting the work out there and recognition or money or anything like that. Okay, nice. So have you ever, like anybody ever said, can you teach me how to do this? Have you ever mentored or? I have, I've done a class, but it's a couple of years ago. But I like, nobody has ever said, oh, I need to learn how to do this. I would love to teach it. I have no problem teaching it. Joy would love to teach. I would love to teach it and get people understanding how they're made. Okay. So is there anything, I mean, we, I feel like we've covered most aspects. What, because, okay, there is something, beauty queen. How did that one come into the mix? Because you're the author, the artist, the scientist. And how did beauty queen get into this? You were Miss World, our Miss World representative. Yes. In 2005, I represented in St. Lucia for Miss World. That is a good story. That one, I think that was few out of, from my need to become a scientist. And I think if, when I think about my journey, a lot of what I do, even if it's unconscious, it's purpose driven. Yes, it's purpose driven. So I can tell you that I was a total tomboy, total, I've never been a diva. I've never been that person. And when they made that casting call, they were like, you know, and the prize for that was a scholarship in France. And I was like, Oh, I want that. That is what I want. And I'm getting it. And I remember meeting all of the other girls and I was quite intimidated. And I'm like, Whoa, okay, I need to learn how to do this and that. But I think once I've set my mind on something, that's it. And I'm going to do whatever it is. And I'm going to get it. That's great. So you went to school in France. What was that like? And amazing. First of all, it did all French. It did molecular biology. Biology, molecular biology. Biochemistry in French. So you had to learn French first or did you already know some? I did French first. I did French and Spanish first. But that was it. That was my baseline for French. I mean, my brain hurts. My brain literally hurts. I am very adventurous. Thinking about the stuff Joyce is doing. So what was that to learn the scientific method? It's not that different. It's not that different. And that's what's great about science. I mean, if you think about how we categorize species, remember that we have a name for any animal so that it can be recognized on an international scale. So science is, I mean, yes, you have to learn the language and apply it, but it's not so different. So you see the science is a language of its own? Yes, I feel like that. And so it's not, it wasn't, I mean, it was scary. It was a new culture, but it's a beautiful culture. And I'm very adventurous. I like new things. I want to try new things. Let's see something new. So it was something that I was willing to try and do. And it's, I like experiences more than anything else. Like I said, material things are not a rather the experience. So that was an excellent experience. Even in the beauty pageant, that was an experience on it. That is something that I was like, oh, okay, I'll take that from it. So what advice would you have for Tyler? Because we are Tyler, Theo Fan, she's our Miss Fool representative. Right. What kind of advice would you give to her when she gets there with the other girls at the pageant? Have fun. That's just basically it. Have fun, enjoy it, represent the country. And really, you don't take it too seriously in terms of not that you don't give your best, as in don't take yourself too seriously. And just really enjoy the journey because you learn so much. And that's something I tell a lot of people when they say they want to do pageantry. It's, for me, it was a learning experience. It was, it really taught me a lot about myself. Like I said, I was a tomboy. I was, I didn't understand how wonderful it was to be a woman, to be a, you know, to be feminine. And that journey gave me a lot of confidence. It taught me about myself, what my strengths were, and you need to just be open with everything and really enjoy. Okay, enjoy that your only beauty pageant. It was my only beauty pageant because I had the cold in mind. Right. So you got what you wanted. So if another one comes up, it'll be like, okay, so that's how I'm going to get this. Yes, I wasn't, I was, I've never been somebody who loved the spotlight and liked to be in the background and like to work in the background. You don't necessarily know my name. Right, right. But yeah, for, for the purpose, I, yeah. Very interesting story about that because most people will say, probably from young, they were into the beauty pageants and modeling and so on. But it's like, no, okay. The goal, forensic scientists, make sure I do science, make sure I do forensics and that was the avenue. All right. So as I said in the intro, you were, you were a beauty queen and I mentioned you were a mother. Yes. So what is that? Like, because that, that is really brings up balance. Yes. I mean, where do you get the time to be a mother to two boys? Yes, two boys. There is no time. Everything, your whole, all the time is, all your time is there. But what motherhood has taught me, I think motherhood is a journey in itself and it teaches me about myself more than anything. My boys have taught me so much. They've taught me how to chill. They taught me how to have fun. Have patience. Yes. Patience. Sometimes I'm like, how, how, where, how do you do this all? Sometimes I'm like, why again did we decide that we needed to work as women? Right? But it's a lot. But when I first became a mother, I remember telling my mom, I now finally understand God's love. I finally get it. You know, it was very abstract. People would say, you know, God loves us unconditionally. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, he loves us unconditionally. But you know, you never really had nothing to compare it to. And I feel like that is what they gave me, that connection, because having a child, being a mother, and just being able, having to take care of that person and knowing that no matter what, you have that, like, they could do anything and you will love them. I mean, you don't do like the things they do, right? But you love them. And I could not understand that until I became a mother is, you know, you do something bad, and you're like, how you can like that. Right? But then you're like, no, it's just unconditional. You just appreciate it. Yes, it really is. Yeah. So do you say your faith because you speak out about God and, and even like, I would say a motivation, but what helps you, even when there is nothing, what helps you speak again about the love? Do you find it's a driving factor in all aspects of your life? Faith? Are you a religious person? Or you would say that you just have a few feel that you do have a connection? Yes, I'm not a religious person, but I am definitely, I believe that there is a higher power. And what's interesting is that this is interesting. Thanks for the question. In, in when I studied, especially in France, you think France is this really religious country, right? And lots of Catholics. But when I, when you study science, a lot of scientists are not the either atheists, so they don't mean even a higher power. But I tell people what my science has grounded my faith. There is, you, you, no scientist can explain to you how the heart starts beating. Right. Okay. They know that it's an electrical impulse. It starts, but at four weeks, it starts. They don't know what triggers it. They don't know what it is. And there's so many different things that we are still exploring that we still trying to find out. And for me, that is what grounds it's like, there must be a higher power. If we didn't do this, it has to happen. And even with art. So for me, that is again, another intersection for art to beauty. And just sometimes I sit and I just see the sunset. I'm like, my God, that is majestic. Like, wow. You know, and that's why everybody's trying to capture, you know, a picture or paint a sunset because of how beautiful it is. And for me, there must be a higher power. It cannot be that this just happened. And he is creative or she is creative, you know, it's there. Yeah, this is such a well, I think this might be a great place to end. On that note, the higher power, the higher power. And so thank you so much, Joy. This was a really enlightening experience, this interview. Because when you think of the scientists, you do not think that the scientist, you know, is an artist. Because it just seems, and I think very special because I don't think many people can be that. So thank you so much for being our guest. And guys, thank you so much for joining us for another episode of Creative Excellence. And my guest, Joy Quinlan. Thank you, guys.