 And we're back here so the breakfast and plus severe care and of course our first meeting conversation is up next. Nigeria's President Mohammed Buhariya has charged the National Institute of Policy of Four Policy and Strategic Studies to surpass the best think tanks policy institutes or think tank policy institutes in the world. And the president met the charge during the graduation ceremony of the Senior Executive Course Number 44-2022 at the NIPSS Kuru in Plateau State. The president, who was represented by the Minister of Transportation, Muazu Jaji Sambo, said that he was delighted to be at the ceremony because of the historic role the national policy think tank the NIPSS has played in the life of the people and the potential it has to do better for the nation. Now here should graduands that the findings and recommendations contained in their recently submitted report would be attended to and applied by his government for the good of the country. Now the importance of policy think tanks can be seen in part by what played out yesterday in London where leading candidate in Nigeria's 2023 presidential election visited one of the leading policy institutions in the world, Shatham House, the Royal Institute for International Affairs in London to answer some pressing questions from the public there which the public here in Nigeria have been longing to ask him for some time. Well joining us this morning for some analysis on this as we look at the important role of policy think tanks in Nigeria, Barrister, Justice Uwebu is a Human Rights Advocate. You welcome to the program Mr. Uwebu. Good morning, it is my pleasure once. All right and what are your thoughts on what the the institution of we're talking about the NIPSS in fact we have not just the NIPSS we have the NIA which is a Nigerian Institute for International Affairs the Nigerian equivalent of Shatham House. What do you think led to the setting up of such institutions in Nigeria? Well for me it's not only that institution, generally institutions were set up for mainly for progress and for advancement of the country and when institutions like this begin to work politically within the confines of its establishment the country will definitely move forward but the only problem I have is that most times we talk about institutions being set up but we have we actually is generalize these issues or these institutions that have been set up and that is one of the major problems we are having today. So when you set up institutions and institutions do not work according to the policies and the the main aim it was set up so definitely you will not get a good result and that's one of the problems we're having in Nigeria today. So let's also talk about the disconnection over time we know that there's a disconnection between government policies you know and the interests of the people so government policies usually don't reflect the interests of the people for instance there might be a need to have electricity in a certain community or maybe pipe bomb water but you find a different policy entirely it might just be having a super highway or probably having an airport where you know all of that. So how do you explain you know the fact that over time policies do not reflect the interest of the people the needs of the people there's no connection with government and some of these agencies that they have established. Yes if that has always been the problem we have in Nigeria this is the issue of impunity because I say we all know this in Nigeria most of the policies that the Nigerian executive let me put it that way both at the federal level and the state level that will come up for the people are actually not what the people did because secondly if you remember you to do have a good policy that will benefit the masses that is why we always call for public opinion so that people can lend their voice when a government wants to bring up a policy and you just sleep one day maybe the president or a governor which one day and wake up and decide this is what I want to do they do actually try to find out whether actually you want to do will work in tandem with what the people want but here in Nigeria people are not in trust they the executive are not interested they wake up one day and do whatever they feel they want to do without carrying the people out loud and that is why we people having bad governance every day in the country so for me there has been long time in disconnect between the people and the government and that is why today the people do not trust the government and that is why we were getting some of these results we are seeing today all these agitations here and there all these problems here and there because there is a signal disconnect between the executive and the people all right could this disconnect be the reason why our politicians in this country are very shallow on policy I mean you hear them talk every day even those who are campaigning to be governors and presidents and senators they are very shallow when it comes to policy policy objectives you know policy formulation but we have people like yourself you know we have organizations like the NBA the NMA the NSE okay you know we have the think tanks like the NPSS and NIA uh what is the prob why do we have a politicians not really like you said they just take decisions you said there's a disconnect is it that they don't care is it that they don't have the idea you know they don't have the idea of what policies can do I've interviewed a lot of politicians especially when it's about governors and most times you ask them what is a policy for agriculture they don't have it what's the policy on on health care they don't have they just say we'll build hospitals we'll build roads we'll build infrastructure but they don't talk about what is going on what is going on we are politicians well let me first of all say these or start from these so-called they say political parties in Nigeria man you now ask yourself what is the division of a political party a political party as you all know is a group of people who come together to share common ideology and to take over government and that ideology they share is what they want to give to the people when they enter to the problem but today after that I'm concerned there we don't have political parties in Nigeria again that is where the disconnects at them because what we have today in Nigeria is what I call selfish interest tabas that wants to identify by all means for their own selfish interest and that is why we are going down the every day for Nigeria is under what I call the law of the nation return and that is what we're having every day second the issue of infinity probably the issue of can I personally do what you do not have because what do you want to do not have look at the club of politicians we say we have to do it what are the educational background what are the educational qualifications can you praise your history from one point to point B to point C to point D so today because politics in Nigeria has been the highest investment or the money making organization that's why everybody every top dick and Harry is throwing into politics we start having anything at the head no techno class if you look at the club of politicians we have to be you can have this is what this person was doing at the at 10 years ago 15 years ago and now he's not into politics to change their history and you discover you don't answer sir what have they been able to achieve all this why they have been before they entered into politics to discover that nothing and that is why everybody now wants to enter into politics let me give you an example I'm from him on stage and anytime I travel to my place I see my even my mates I see people you ask them what do you do for a living they tell you they are politicians you're not accessing a question is politics a job it is only in this country that people have some policies to be a profession and that is why they do everything to make sure they go there they are not going there for the interests of the people okay they are only going there for their own service or Marisa you know what I must be fair I must be fair to some of these politicians you've had you know some policies in in in government really nice policies you know for instance in legal state right from the days of Fashola we've had the legal state development plan you know it's been there and recently I think the current governor had to come up with a new one because it said that the old one had been overtaken by time in in at the federal level you have some policies like the national sugar policy in last one you have the national livestock program that's another one and I think when Obasanja was president you had seeds state economic development strategy you had also needs for the states you had needs but they came up with needs first of all before seeds that's another strategy it's a policy so we don't have a death of policy you know if it won't be won't be real we we have some some some policies so for the ones that are there why have we not seen seen any you know result for now we can talk about for instance president's empowerment program you know the one where they they mess what do you call that again with the cover last week where they give up money to to poor indigent people the the conditional cash transfer program or the national cash program these are some but we've not seen the resultant effect should we talk about the justice okay let me leave the other ones so why are we not seeing the effects of the the ones that are we have on ground you see that first of all um you have to understand something like I said earlier we all these policies who have bodies or institutions the issue there it is have we actually institutionalize these institutions the answer is no what I mean by institutionalizing is not just to go and sit up an institution view the mansion and somebody gets in there all those people that gets in there they only go there to enrich their pocket they are not even in prison in following the men m why that establishment was done or something like that today for example you have the agency you have the itpc you have all the right to and what is happening the president or whoever that is here will use all these positions the md's are seen equals to you know set to his people or political loyalism and that is why we're not getting results if one person is not there the the problem or the institution died is not about you know working with the tandem of the institution's guidelines and policies that is what I'm trying to say now you talk about policies that have been done and all the way now let me also actually put some when there are good policies people will actually know and who will enjoy will have people positively you brought the policy where you say you're sharing money 10,000 30,000 people of what effect will it be to Nigeria is that what Nigerians need the answer is no let's stop deceiving ourselves in this country I'm happy to say some politicians yes some of them might have a good policy but you're not having a good policy when you have the good policy not in the gear that will drive it you have a good gear to drive it and the the problem we always have this all this work is that people in the hem of our face and not people that are thinkers and not people that can use something to move the economy forward everybody coming in in all of these establishments or institutions just want to come and grab it from Nigeria is today institutions are feeling like a national team you just go in there make your own money and go because at the end of the day no accountability nobody holds anybody responsible and that is one of the things people are putting year in year out and Nigeria is not progressing we're not moving forward we have just been kept to be done that so but I have these institutions in the first instance lived up to their expectations the reason they were established the answer is no not everybody's decision today that has been set up that is functioning properly as it's supposed to be in Nigeria tell me no you have white paper on this white paper on that most of these institutions go there you see people okay look at for example no one that's not a residential agency who hears about it again we are about to conduct a nation everything is planned for INEC to do our awareness voters awareness and not you know what is the orientation agency doing and if you remember we have this orientation agency office in all these all the local governments in Nigeria what are they doing and if you go there today you see people that are sitting there collecting salary every month you know you can go out on our own and so many of them all those things we have just set up to to settle some people the president has has promised to implement the the the recommendations made in the the findings and recommendations continue to report by this particular set the course number 44 2022 senior executive course number 44 2022 at the NIP SS I mean for years we know that every time they have that you know course this course that they will have a president or someone go visit them or they'll go pay a courtesy call I mean they've been having this for years must the president implement such policy recommendations and findings and must government do that if so should we have a mechanism a policy you know to ensure the government implements or adopt some of these policies before the problem we have is that uh the the the Nigerian government were not safe here that is they are not safe here that is all like I've said before I see a game of all about sufficient whenever you see them come out to talk on television they're going to implement these are going to implement that forget about it it's just for that period they only want to tell people what they want to hear and at the end of the day they go back and do what they want to do let me give you an example today I I bet you if we make governance or government or this position less attractive especially the the amount of money they are getting and all that nobody wants to join politics so anybody today people all the people that are working today for one reason or the other are hoping to either be ministers or to be DG for this or to be CEO for this or and most of them don't even have the capacity if the major problem here is capacity like I said before somebody cannot do what he does not have when you have a president or a governor who does not know what to do they will also bring people that are like him that will not know what to do so what do you expect I'd like to ask if you think that some of the policies that this current administration has been running on uh probably emanated from you know the institute I'm talking about the nipss now well I thought I'm consigned if you look no no no I don't see that way I don't because first of all for me I have not seen any one policy this is almost get eight years now the administration is leaving by next year which is eight okay we're probably seem to have a disconnect you know with our guests but we hope that works establish contact with him as soon as we can but we're talking about policies here and that's very you know very dicey because um it's policy that's it's it's about governance and so what government chooses to do or does not do it's also important it's also a policy but some people have said that from the policy circle itself they seem to be a challenge in terms of formulation and then the policy getting out to the point of implementation is that connects you also want to talk about do we have a connection with research how much of research centers or data are we dependent on I'm not even too surprised to hear recently you know a presidential candidate who was making a fund or making nonsense of another a candidate who said oh he's always talking about data but data is very important and that's how you plan for a government that's how you plan for a country that's how policies are formulated so what's the connection with you know our policies government and research institutes of course we have all of these are government agent agencies is their connection how come you know the policies do not reflect the interest of the people and just like we know okay so we have you back it's good to know that we have you back but I was raising some you know questions there and I'm sure that you you would like to you know react to some of the questions that I've raised what you're telling the truth the truth here is that when these policies are made this is a if they understand that these are the enemies of people this is what the people want and this is what they want to hear so that is why during campaign you see them use all these issues to protect the people for the people to believe them but the moment they get into power they forget about it they know that this is actually what the people need so that they can connect with the people but they're not interested and that is why they are not making a fund on the masses so it's not a matter of making policies 100 million okay look at it in Nigeria since 1999 uh many many parties who come they have 10 points agenda 20 points agenda 100 points agenda have they been able to establish one and the answer is no so it is something they have been in the policy now you not ask yourself a question again what are the manifestos of these political parties tell me one political party in Nigeria today that is actually following the manifesto of the party 36 so and simplicity that the way it should be so when so where does the problem lie down because we have to know where the problem starts from is it in the policy formulation or you know the path where there's implementation in the policy sector where exactly is the problem for us in Nigeria the problem is this I've been sure there is no sincerity of purpose that's what I'm trying to explain they only because they know that these are policies that Nigerians want you here in order to affect their life so they go ahead and say them and use them to compare but at the end of the day there is no sincerity of purpose they are not interested they are not they don't even want to do it because let me tell you the truth when you begin to you know implement some of these policies if we even educate the masses more the masses will know more the masses will know they are they are they are up and down and this is something we see today this one says we see today 99.9% of them do not want the people the masses to actually know what they are doing they are only lying to the masses okay justice you know that when the masses get to know yeah it just is I mean I mean let's let's let's cut the president some slack I don't know about other politicians but um we look at the federal government you know economic policies in agriculture you have the anchor boroughs program which has been there since 2015 launched in you know in November 2015 by the president you look at the presidential fertilizer initiative launched in 2017 in agreement with the government of morocco you look at in the business sector for instance support for micro small and medium enterprises that's with the developing bank of Nigeria which is a new bank being launched takeoff funding initial takeoff funding of 1.3 billion US dollars at the time you look at the ease of doing business reform that was really really going on successfully now there's a business insider told me they were having it good especially with the federal internal revenue service everything was smooth when the vice president was allowed to do his thing but I have a businessman in Lagos who told me that he's been having it tough with the FIRS with all sorts of things popping up here and there he doesn't pay anybody any bribe or anything but he said that when they took away this these people's aids remember the time they reshuffled the aids in the president vice president's office you know most of them were all these rccj people and people who came in with the vice president shocked people there was a reshuffling and they they shut them the door and then seconded people from the presidency to work in the office of vice president and according to this businessman this is a one-on-one he told me that that was where he felt things went wrong with this ease of doing business and now if you talk to the average businessman they they are not having it as easy but for instance payment of taxes you know you wake up today here that FIRS has blocked your account so what do you say to that but we've had the ease of doing business reform there were some successes there for some time uh pension reforms for instance we've had that and i don't know what what do you say to this example i just gave you well i thought i'm concerned that was what i said earlier you see unfortunately uh many Nigerians are beginning to know the truth are beginning to see what people like us have been saying earlier before now for me i see this voting as uh policies they just formulated in order to deceive Nigeria and themselves because one that's even Nigerian they are also deceiving themselves now you talked about the business line and all the way today you're not accessible question how much is one nera per dollar and that is why it's affecting business secondly since the exception of this president administration what you have witnessed is multiple objections the government is not even interested in what they can deliver to the people but it's taken from the people the little they suffer to get and put for themselves now in Nigeria today you provide your own electricity you provide your own security you provide your own education you provide your own food everything you do it yourself by hard work by hard work and the justice but the point i was making yeah that's for the example i give i'm sorry to interject but the point i was also trying to make was that there have been some successes for instance the the policies i mentioned earlier have been successfully implemented um you look at the the the uncle borough's program it's been implemented you look at the presidential fertilizer initiative it's been implemented you look at support from micro small and medium enterprises in nigeria it's been on the development back of nigeria was not there introduced the development bank of nigeria even if you look at budgeting uh mr uh mr webu that we had problems with budgeting because we could the federal government could not keep to the january to december budget cycle but this president implemented the policy of making sure that we must have january to december that's why the policy budget is presented early that's a success you know despite the challenges with east of green business they recorded some successes we look at pensions this federal government has had a successful you know pension policy you know they released our starting pensions to 33 percent uh pension areas in 2019 you know delta steel company you had 3000 over 3000 pensioners who were being owed they've been placed on payroll you had nitro pensioners 9216 none of them they were payrolled you have retired biafrant police officers who were dismissed by the federal government in 1971 president paid them over 571 million naira you know in 2017 nigeria airways pensioners over 24 billion naira they were forgotten you know um we can go on and on implementation of the treasury single account it's been there as a policy but it's this president can i can i can i can i come in here can i come in here yes can i come in here i i don't know my brother i wouldn't want to sound it but let me say this um these are figures you're mentioning and i know you do not work in the government because you're not their spokesman but i also know that you're putting these figures from what you have had see nigeria is a country where they come out and say certain things and do a different thing now you're talking about success if actually we are having success or making success in all the things you're saying why are we still almost in this but just is i'm not saying what i heard i can give you an example yeah just last week i had to make a transaction with a government office i went on a pedal remittance he online he went straight to government account and he paid money to anyone i see you well i'm not saying what success have they made do you know how much a bank of fertilizer is today you're talking about fertilizer implementation blah blah blah whatever how much is the bank of fertilizer today how much is the bank of rice today you see my brother can we tell ourselves the truth i brought him in this country forget about what the government is telling you forget about i thought i'm concerned is that this government is founded on defeat for me i thought i'm concerned go from what i have seen from 2015 to death i have not seen any promise that will mention the people that have been kept free to censor and implemented into the letter today what are we saying you don't know how much a bank of rice is today a bank of rice is almost 50 000 but nigeria is producing more fertilizer thereby thereby saving so nigeria is producing more fertilizer you know we didn't have blending plots now we have 22 blending plots in the in the country nigeria is producing more fertilizer so we don't have to import that saving of forex nigeria is producing more fertilizer that's that's that's all that's a fact right now that's a fact nigeria was in more fertilizer how much is the bank of fertilizer today i have to check but when he calls you tell me how much is the bank okay bison tell me how much is the bank of fertilizer today nigeria was in rice how much is the bank of my brother i see that's what i'll tell you the truth because only the truth that can save us in this country justice justice let let's quickly come back to this because we're costing this conversation down in no time i know that we've been talking about i mean it's not possible to talk about the nipss without talking about you know government policies because beyond training senior executive officers including men from the military and all the works of lives they're not just limited to training they're also expected to contribute you know to the nation's development and all of that and i'm sure that that's where this conversation is about looking at you know the various government policies that we've had and and why government policy has a disconnect but i'd like to ask specifically for them do you think that you know the nipp or the nipss has lived up to her expectation have that really been contributing to economic you know you know the nation building that lived up to the expectation beyond the training that they conduct for senior officers in the country for me the answer is capital no because if it has been working as expected to by now won't be where we are nigeria is that is thinking and we must all come out and say the truth and know how to remedy this situation we should not always you know be relying on the government when they come out and say one thing they go out and and and do a different thing than all in fact we did themselves we did we did we did we did the government he said that's not that's not there's no connection they're not they don't even understand what they are doing and that is why we are having all this problem and not until we tell ourselves the truth you know in the end of times that they all say something he said it's something go back to the truth that we must persist and continue in error and that's what is happening to us so we don't want to tell ourselves the truth interesting very very very interesting question messy acts and interesting answer you've given a very interesting point because you know the nia nigeria international affairs this is nigeria equivalent of a of chatham house royal institute of international affairs in london living in existence is 1961 maybe we would like to see that they are holding the candidates to account just like you have it being done in chatham house and even having other people from other country presidential aspirants coming to nigeria to answer questions and of course you look at the nips interesting so what you're saying is that they need to pull their weight and do more to be relevant in the country maybe the politicians would take them seriously but time will tell if they implement the policy that president will implement the policy like he said probably we'll have to keep following messy to see we may down the road if they do that we'll look for a copy of that report and look at their findings and recommendations and we'll watch but we'd like to thank you very much for your time justice uhwebu human rights advocate has been very interesting having you on the program this morning thank you very much is this my pleasure also well that's the size of that conversation and who will quickly take a break but you know kofi just to just add up i know that we're moving to the next topic it's a big issue yes it's another thing to say you have a government institution and you have bodies right but you also have schools including the universities they're supposed to serve also as a think tank now have you i'm sure that you and i went to the same university i carried out my research and i know the the topic you know what i researched i made my recommendations i'm sure it's in the dustbin because i went out to the field i did my research and it's not being used because if you look at you know the issues the current issues that were faced with especially with the elections you find that those things are still repeating themselves and why do you have to you know research why do you have to do research and find it i think i go with the view that these institutions also have to pull their weight you know that that last question was very important they have to do a lot also to be relevant uh well up next to look at what uh lies ahead for the independent national electoral commission ahead of the 2023 elections anakin n cc will be meeting over the transmission of resolved very touchy issue or discuss that when we come back