 Ms. Chivas's elements are plotting to cost disaffection among Bola, Tinnabu, Abdullahi, Ganduji and Ibrahim Masari, says the Canaan State government as they react to elict audio of Ibrahim Masari, a former placeholder and vice-president of candidates of the APC. And stakeholders retrait need for original autonomy as the only solution to Nigeria's problems. This is Plus Politics, and I'm Mary Annicole. Ibrahim Masari, a former placeholder, vice-presidential candidate of the ruling All Progressive Congress APC, has said President-elect Bola Tinnabu is making it difficult for people to trust him. He said this in an elict phone call he had with the governor, Abdullahi Ganduji, of Canaan State, over the meeting Tinnabu held with Rabiu Kwonkoso, presidential candidate of the new Nigerian People's Party, NNPP. Now, in the audio, Masari was heard advising Ganduji to have a one-on-one meeting with the president-elect, but Ganduji, a strong backer of Tinnabu, kept lamenting that he had been betrayed. The former placeholder, vice-presidential candidate said Tinnabu was sending the wrong signal that would prevent people from trusting him. Meanwhile, the Canaan State government has reacted to the audio of the phone call between the governor, Abdullahi Ganduji and Ibrahim Masari, a former vice-presidential candidate's placeholder of the APC. In a statement, also, Malam Mohamed Garabah, commissioner for information and internal affairs in Canaan State, said the exaggerated publicity on the purported audio clip was the handy walk of paid agents trying to unturn the so-called conversation with a view of cussing disaffection between the two political gladiators. Joining us to discuss this is Shehu Musa-Garbham, he's the national chairman of the Social Democratic Party, SDP, and Shegul Shopitan, who is a public affairs analyst and is also of ACT Network. Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining us and good evening. Good evening. Good evening. Thank you. I'll start with you, Mr. Garbham, as a politician. This obviously doesn't come to you as a surprise. We've had so many leaked phone calls. Most of the time, what people are waiting to hear is if this audio was authentic or not. But from what the spokesperson of the Canaan State government has said, it sounds more like it was authentic, but then the words were twisted in favor of the people who you would call detractors of the governor of his state, and of course, Malam Mohamed Tilibu. What are your thoughts on the content of this conversation? Well, first and foremost, we are in an era of leakages, you know, where a lot of information had been leaked. But then to the authenticity of the audio, it's difficult for anybody to ascertain it. It takes an expert to say, this is authentic or this was state managed. Number two, the issue of the case holder is an academic thing for now because he was there on temporary grounds, he was replaced, and he admitted to it. I'm sure he must have signed the documents of replacement based on INEC guidelines for you to be substituted. You must have signed the letter of resignation not to participate anymore. So I'm not in APC, I'm not speaking for APC, but knowing the power structure and the compositions of power, some of these things are going to be tougher because some of the strong elements that are around the president-elect are doing everything only possible to have their way, and those who have contributed either directly or through progress are also fighting very hard to make sure they are part of the system. Formation of government is extremely very difficult, and then you take a strong leadership to look at the entire scenario, you know, critically and come up with processes that would define their sense of direction. For now, given the fixations of power and the complex nature of religious politicians around the president-elect, we don't expect it to be easy, because people are negotiating for a lot of things, and if the president is not being careful, if he's being carried away, he will end up from day one having a cabinet that cannot fly. Just the way we are having this current outgoing government, I expect the president-elect to go outside the box and look for people with capacity that will help him to be on his feet from the day of flowing in. But if he goes by the tradition of what APC government have done, President Mahmoud Bahri, it is extremely difficult for President Bola to take off from the ground. It's going to be extremely very complicated, given the vicious nature of the people around him who wants to be around the cabinet at all costs, and then continue the business as usual. So I expect the president to understand that the elections are over. It is time to govern Nigeria. And governing Nigeria needs people with capacity, with a commitment, with national interests to change the narrative that we are having now, to deal with the insecurity, deal with a lot of segregations, agitations, just like we have Shahgari regime. You have to remodel the Shahgari regime and make sure that people have a sense of long distance of participation, so that there will be quietness in the land and people will begin to embrace a new leadership that have a vision of moving Nigeria forward. So it's normal. Some of these things you will see, what's up it, you will see more of the legacies, you will see a lot of gossip, you will see a lot of attempt to derail the process, but I believe that as a nation would not allow it to happen because May 29 is sacrosanct by law, and then whatever happens, somebody must be sworn in. For now, it is the president because there's not any judgment that set that aside. And once he's been sworn in, he needs to do the needful, and he needs to keep the ground running, and then we wait for the final judgment of the cost of the land. Let me move to you, Shagong. Looking at the situation between what happened during the elections, of course, we saw how Kanu was swept by the NNPP, knowing obviously also that Kwankusul does have a hold of sorts in Kanu, and the meeting that the president-elect did have with the NNPP presidential candidate, how do you think the Kanu state government is taking it again? With all of the deals that have been made publicly or privately, how easy is it going to be for those who think that they have supported the president-elect within the party, and of course, the strides that he's making with those who are outside of the party? Well, look, this is what politicians do. They do deals, they host trade, they seek support from each other in exchange for something or the other. And what we are seeing playing out in Kanu is not particularly different from what you would normally see from politicians. The reaction of the Kanu state government and the APC in Kanu state maybe is not surprising, you know, because if the president-elect is having meetings with a member of another party, especially a party who more or less is now in control of Kanu state, then of course the APC people in Kanu state should be worried. For example, what does that mean for them? Constitutionally, the president-elect must pick appointees into his cabinet and into his government from all the 36 states of the federation, must have at least one minister from Kanu state. What that means for the APC is that there is a strong possibility that the person that will represent Kanu state in the president-elect's cabinet will not be appointed by the APC, will not be recommended by the APC, which is a loss of ground and a loss of power. So that would explain why they are worried and of course that would trickle down to other appointments that the president-elect will be making that might have come as recommendations from the APC. It would mean that the APC has lost ground to Kanu so in Kanu, not just with elections, but even within the political calculations within that state. So yes, the APC should complain, it should be worried. For us as Nigerians, what does this mean? For me, as a good governance advocate, it's neither here nor there. This is politicians being what they will do. I'm not on the inclusion as an ordinary Nigerian or as a Nigerian that speaks for the ordinary Nigerian that all of this host trading and negotiations has anything to do with good governance, has anything to do with the interest of the larger population. If anybody's interest is being served by all of this, it's the interest of the people with influence, the people in the political circles in that area and that's about it. So for us, we just watch with some measure of attention just so that we're informed and we know what's happening and we know where our appointees will be coming from and how they came about and that's just about it. One of the other things that I think this should say to political watchers is it would be interesting to see how the president-elect navigates this situation. We know his politics from Lagos, but now he's moving to the national level and even he will find that dealing with the political calculations, the political schemes, is a completely different ballgame now that he's being at the national level as against what was going on in Lagos. It cannot just appoint people single-handedly the way it used to do. It has to be more broad-minded and broad-based in his approach and maybe this is a testament to the fact that he's willing to do this, the fact that he's willing to talk to an MPP rather than just his own party. Maybe it means that he's willing to step on toes a bit in order to ensure that some measure of national unity is sustained. We will see. I'm not saying that's what it is, but it could be. So it's all very interesting to support that political evidence. Back to you, Mr. Gabram. It's interesting how everybody's talking about the meeting with Kwan-Kaw. So we've seen, you know, Governor Wike, we've seen the governor or your state governor-elect who's also sitting governor, you know, meet with, but this is not the first time that people who are outside of the APC have met with the president-elect. But then Kwan-Kaw's meeting seems to be raising dust in Kano state. The PDP, as it's two weeks ago, if I'm not mistaken, were getting set to award the likes of Governor Wike and Governor Makin Day as outgoing governors for not just what they've done in the states, but also in the party. So what would be the fear that you presume the people in Kano would have over this talks with Kwan-Kaw? So being that he also had eyed these perverted seats, which is the presidency. And now, of course, he's lost out. The likes of Reno Mockery is wondering also why Tinibu would be hub-nobbing with Kwan-Kaw. So what exactly he'd be needing from him? Well, if you study the body language of the, of Kwan-Kaw, so even before the election, it suggests clearly that he has a sort of sympathy given the long-standing relationship between himself and Bola Ahamed Zinengu. During the SDP days of Bola, Konkoso was a deputy speaker under SDP. Kwan-Kaw was a senator elected from Lagos under SDP. So they've been friends for a long time politically. And then, of course, you know, that friendship updates his relationship with Ganbujie. And then in trying to form a political alliance to move the country forward, you have to look for forces that will balance possibility of crisis, you know, around the political zones. Who are those who have the muscle that can water down possibility of conflict or crisis around the country? That's how visionary leaders look into issues. They don't just pick anybody, but the people that will add value in terms of upgrading the quality of the leadership. So it's not a surprising thing for those who know the history of the relationship between them. And of course, if you also followed the interview conducted with Konkoso before the election, he certainly gave advantage to Bola Danachiku. So there's that linkage between them for a very long time. They have been effort to, you know, convince Konkoso then to come out publicly and support Bola and step down his ambition. He refused, he said, we'll take it to the end. And now, of course, the election has come to an end. So they are renewing their political relationship. It is likely that Bola is looking at the political weight of Konkoso and what value is going to add to his government and giving the size of Kano. The economic importance of Kano. It is going to be a strategic advantageous to him than perhaps what the outgoing governor is going to give. Don't also forget the fact that the outgoing governor has his own hitches at home domestically that was generated, that is into a multifaceted, that issues that is also generating a lot of negative reaction in terms of supporting him in terms of his home-based support. So it's a multifaceted team. And for the president-elect to have some level of stability given the results that have been declared by INEG. And in a country where you have over 90 million registered voters, we end up having 8.7 million to produce a president. Either he could earn tax or any zeroes leader to look into in terms of forming cabinet and stabilizing the country. There will be a lot of challenges, tremendous challenges, like I've said, some of the people around him are very vicious, are very vicious in terms of fighting hard to make sure they get the position. And then if you give them the position, you have not done your mathematics very well, you will not get the formula right. And then the ball stopped at his own decks. So knowing the president-elect that I know with level of independent of his mindset in terms of dissected issues, there's a possibility we'll go off the course not to what people are thinking about. You will go for quality people that are going to add value to the government because already it's from behind. Given the results of the elections, the agitation, the fracas around the system, we need to do something, we need to get people that have capacity to move all people together and pacify the system for a proper take off. There seems to also be in the tone between the conversation between the two gentlemen, the governor and of course the placeholder. There seems to be that tone of sadness, of abandonment. Could this be the general feeling from the people in the North being that the North had boldly come out to say they supported him? And I'm talking about the North, I'm talking about the governor who supported his emergence and those who have continuously stood by him all through the elections. Could this be the same disaffection that is resonating across the Northern supports that Bola Metinibu enjoyed during his campaign? Well, I really don't think so because the people are in a hurry to make assassinations. First, the cabinet lists are not out. So people are just speculating. Those that have pressed the desperate button thinking by now maybe the president would have released the list of his possible upcoming cabinet have not seen that speculations are ongoing, maybe rightly or wrongly some fact lists are going around and that is creating the agitation, that is creating the fear that maybe the president can not stand by what he said if there's any private agreement between him and the so-called placeholder before. But I think the timing is wrong for us not hitting up the system. The need for the placeholder to understand that he need to wait and see how the cabinet will go. But I don't know what agreements are in between them. What position he have bargained for or they have bargained for him. But it is necessary for people to exercise patience for us to have a peaceful transition and for the president-elect to determine the kind of people he's going to work with. You know, experience have shown us that the current people that are running the country lack the capacity to run the country. And if you repeat the same kind of mistake by electing very weak people to preside over his cabinet, certainly Nigeria will be in for a disaster because globally we are having the economic recession all over the world. Our economy is down, it's on its knees. And then you need people with creativity, with economic skill and expertise, with political skill, you know, to bring the country together, create a political environment for investment and otherwise coming. So for me I would advise the president-elect to be extremely very careful in his decision we have said this several times. In any short of being extremely careful and very technical and very deep in his assessment of the quality of people he's bringing in, certainly he's going for a very nasty situation to deal with. The poverty level is extremely very high. You know, the unemployment is unimaginable. Our health sector have gone on its knees. The educational sector have gone on its knees. So all the vital organs, the fundamental pillars that are supposed to drive the nation to stability are very weak. The national assembly is trying to come on board. They have crisis to manage the national assembly, the national assembly already. So from all fronts it's been confronted with a lot of challenges. So he needs people that have the right thinking, the right stability to do that. Okay, I'll come back to you because there are a few things you've raised and I want to, you know, just push you further on. But let me come back to Shagun. How trustworthy is Ebola in Tunibu because you see Mr. Gabam here keeps saying that, oh yes, of course the deals that were made or whatever, you know, people need to be patient. He sounds more like he trusts what Ebola in Tunibu may be able to deliver upon. But how trustworthy is he? Because again, the tone of that conversation, even though we've not been able to understand the veracity or the authenticity of that particular conversation, even though nobody has also said it didn't happen. I'm wondering, does it not seem like the people are questioning if he is a man of his word? And for you who's experienced him as a politician, as the governor of Lagos State, et cetera, et cetera, how trustworthy is Ebola in Tunibu in terms of a man who can keep his word? Well, that's a difficult question to answer. And it depends on what we are looking for. So you put me on the spot if it's... It's a politician. He's a man who wants his canvas to be president of this country. He said it's his turn. He's been a kingmaker. It's time for him to be the king. He's given us a project hope to look forward to. But how trustworthy is he in terms of delivering? Yeah, so the thing that we must recognize, first and foremost is that the man in the boat is very ambitious. We know this about him. He's a long-term planner type of person. So some people will describe that as being a visionary, but I have a different definition of being a visionary. So he definitely looks at the long term when he's making his calculations, his political calculations. Some will say he's a political strategist and a master politician. They've used a lot of appellations for him that are positive. But we also have to remember from history and from his antecedents in Lagos and in Southwestern politics that there have been situations where he's been accused of betraying the people that worked for him and that he was in bed with. You will remember vividly, for some people will remember vividly what happened in 1999, in 2003 specifically, where the AD, as of that time, lost almost the entirety of the Southwest as a result of a deal that Tinnubu went into with the opposition, with the election of a president. The deal where they went into a deal to say they're gonna vote for the president who is of a different party but will vote for our governors at the gubernatorial elections and it backfired. And the AD lost the entirety of Southwest except for Lagos where he was in control. So we've seen that the man can look at the political calculations independent of loyalties to the people who might have expected him to stay loyal to. So for example, him going into bed with Kwakwan So who pretty much is as of now almost a mortal enemy of the APC hierarchy in Kano will definitely be seen as a betrayal by the Kano, by Kanduja in particular and the other APC hierarchy in Kano. So how trustworthy is he when it comes to politics? I'm sorry, I think that the man will do what number one is in his best interests from a political point of view. And secondly, what is in the best interests of his party and his loyalist before any other constipation. So if I were the people that were in bed with him now I'll remember the different instances in the past where he may have been said to have betrayed certain people. We remember what happened with Amber Day as an example also after Ibn Fashola, you remember, look at the people that are political observers will know that whatever romance that is going on between Fashola today and Tinubu is a recent development. There was a time that there were really, really a daggers drawn at the beginning of the Bwari administration over the fact that the man Tinubu did not want a second time for Fashola who was willing to discard him and he did discard Amber Day. So when it comes to political strategy and calculations, Tinubu is brutal. Tinubu will be as, yeah, let me just use the word brutal as necessary in his view. And he will not look at certain considerations that somebody might have said, oh, you need to be loyal, you need to be honorable, and all of that. Those considerations may come secondary to him. If he feels that his political interests would be better served by working with somebody else. So if I were the people working with him I wouldn't close my two eyes. I'll be looking over my shoulders once in a while just to be sure that I'm safe. Quickly, before I go back to Mr. Gabon, still talking about, in your words, he being brutal here. Do we see a lot of ethnic and religious sentiments coming to play, especially with the picking of people who he would be working with in the long run? Well, I think by and large, the man has shown himself to be largely tribalized and maybe not particular about what religion you practice. We can look at the different appointments that he's had, his closest political allies, and all of that. And you see that it's very broad-based. You have pastors, you have Christians, you have Muslims, you have Northerners. You can see the way the North has rallied behind him. You have Southerners and all of that. So I'm not sure that we need to worry about his cabinet, for example, being particularly tribalistic or maybe skewed towards a particular religion. Of course, because he's a man from the Southwest, a Yoruba man who grew up in the Southwest, you are likely to see that there will be a slight tilt in that direction in his appointments. But I don't think that it will be unbalanced. The way, for example, that people are complained about they are doing President's appointments, I don't think we see that kind of skewedness. OK. Back to you, Sheryl. You talked about something. You kept talking about quality people. You're asking that the president-elect look in that direction of getting people of quality. What quality exactly do you speak of here? Because I remember six months into President Bahari's administration, we were yet to see a list of people who he was going to make his ministers. And he kept saying that the delay was because he was looking for men and women who were upstanding, rather upright, I beg your pardon, men who were decent, those who did not have any skeletons in their cupboard. But here we are at the close of his government. Can we really say that six months was what's the way to again? What is the quality that you speak of in terms of the people that Bala Mertinibu should be focusing his attention on? First, I believe President Bahari did not believe he was going to win the election. That would lead to the delay in the formation of his government. There's no any president that is prepared to take over power that would waste six, seven months before forming the government. Nigeria have a surplus of some of the best brains we can find anywhere. If you are a serious president, you will have access to them at any time. Secondly, let me also remind that if you look at recent, even the administration of President Babangida, you will remember some of the best brains that have run the government. Forget about whatever happened politically. But he produced some of the best brains. If you look at also President Bahari, he tried and showed for some quality people that happened in driving his own government. So President Bahari had a delay because they are not sure they are going to win the election. So there was no plan of takeoff immediately. And that one led us into this mess economically, politically, and otherwise. So when it comes to the president elects, and given the history of what happens under Uberson Joe, under Eradua, under Jonathan, and Bahari himself, I think you have a sufficient lesson to learn and do the needful. And in every state of the Federation, I can bet you have been to every state of Nigeria. In every state of the Federation, you will get the best 20 quality people that will give you what you want. So it's a matter of making your choice, preparing for what you do, and committed to what you want to achieve. He will get the best people he's looking for in every state of the Federation, except if he's not ready to go back, except if he's not ready to go back. Nigeria has so close of some of the best you can think of. So for me, if you experience any problem in the formation of cabinet of President Wala Amitunubu, it means he's not ready for it, because there's a shortfall of capacity to show for quality of people that can help him in driving the government. So I strongly believe in that. And also, I strongly believe he will try as much as possible to be a national leader, devoid of being ethnic or religious sentiments. Because history has proved over a time that he has some level of balanced mind. Not the way we saw some government. I mean, this present government, all the appointment to treat those one particular section of the country. I do not expect that. Like I've said, apart from I'm not speaking for ABC, somebody that I know one on one, I've interface with him, I've interrogated some of his thinking and his capacity to look at issues. So we are wishing the system well. The elections are over. We are looking forward to peaceful Nigeria, peaceful coexistence, economic prosperity, unity, conducive political environment for the country to move on. This is our prayer. We will not pray anything bad to happen to our country under any circumstances. Does it seem like there's trouble ahead after May 29 for President-elect Tunibu Wala Amitunubu again, because these are all, we're all speculating for you. You're hoping, you're praying that he's listening and that this might be his intention. And but then when we look at everything that has played out up until his election, and of course where we are today, does it seem that it is going to be an easy road for him, an easy journey ahead of him a task? Again, there's so many things on his plate. We have an economy that is almost, in fact, we're facing a downturn. We're looking at a petroleum sector that is in tatters. Earlier today, all of them across party lines were here in Lagos, celebrating the Dangote refinery, but then we have Moribond refineries getting talked around maintenance every now and again, but we're not producing anything. I mean, talk about security. Talk about, I mean, there's so many things that lie ahead of the Bala Amitunubu administration. How easy is it going to be for him? I have no doubt in my mind he's going to inherit a very precarious situation. I have no doubt in my mind. The economy is very weak. There's lack of capacity to drive the economy. The political environment is polluted by politicians who don't believe in anything good, who don't want to see the country peaceful. And then, of course, above all, you have already security crisis at hand, that is taking the life of innocent people, wiping out villages, actually or weekly or daily basis. These are fundamental issues that he need to deal with straight ahead. If he's not decisive, I don't see him having a stable government. He must be very decisive. There must be deterrence. If he lack capacity to create deterrence, then there's no hope for him. Deterrence is fundamental for him to succeed. Those that are part of the killing and the maiming and the raping and the production of orphans must pay for it, must be persecuted. Those that are responsible for economic sabotage must pay for it. The central bank that have ruined our economy, that have commercialized our economy, have hijacked the public fund, must be investigated. All things that led us to where we are, must be investigated. That is the only way you can create deterrence and people will have a hope that there's a better future. But if he's coming in okay, his business are usual. I'm sorry for him. I sympathize with him because study, administration of the administrations and participating in the electoral process over decades. I know that anybody who is going to be the president of Nigeria and he lacks the will to take tough decisions. I'm sorry for him. He's not gonna be it. I sympathize with him. He's going to inherit tremendous problems, very deep challenges, particularly from the security angle, from the political angle and from ministries, strategic ministries that have to change the life of Nigeria. And it's in short of breaking the best. Then it's a big issue that we have to face as a nation. Finally, Sherwin, because we're out of time. For those of you who are into good governance and advices cases that have been on governments come and governments go pushing for good governance. Also again, I'll just ask you almost the same question I asked you. If you are looking at the antecedents of this man and how he got here, because Sherwin talked about him being creative and coming up with the best ideas on how to deal with issues, does he look like, does he seem like he will be creative, will he care about it? Because I remember talking to the secretary of the Northern Elders Forum at some time about President Buhari and he said, the President Buhari was only ambitious and wanted to be the president, but was not ambitious as to leading Nigeria to a better place. So do you see Ebola met, wanting to just be a president who wanted to change Nigeria and living that legacy for posterity to remember him quickly? Well, I think very quickly, the person of Ebola met in Oguiz is an enigma, is an intriguing mind, right? He's very intelligent, he's deep. So I do not foresee a situation where you're gonna have an armchair president who just wants to be president, is to build his ambition and that's just it for him. He's going to be very active, he's gonna be trying a lot of things, he's going to try new ideas. The problem that I think he's going to have, my brother has already said that he has a big job, you know, Nigeria is in tatters in every sector that you can talk about. Tough decisions are needed. The problem that this president elects when he becomes president will have is that he has a legitimacy issue. If you are going to deal with, if you are going to make tough decisions, you must have your people standing firmly behind you, believing in you and supporting everything that you do. Unfortunately, you know, the outcome of the elections as announced by INEG, which is still being contested heavily in court, is such that only 37% of the people that voted for him, which is 63% that do not want him as president and those people are likely to resist everything he does every step of the way. So it's going to be a tough job. I don't envy him at all. Well, May 29th is just around the corner. We'll be counting down to that and of course watching to see what happens. Sherwin Musa Gabham is the National Chairman of the Social Democratic Party, SDP and Shagun Shabitan is a public affairs analyst and he's also of ACT Network. Thank you so much gentlemen for having this conversation with me. Thank you. All right, we'll take a short break now and then we will be discussing the cause for original autonomy in Nigeria. Stay with us.