 cyber professionals we have today, Frida Clanton and also Peter Benson from from Camp Smith, the big white building on the hill, Indopaycom. They're cyber experts. We're going to talk to them about what that means. I'm so excited to talk to you because technology is our middle name. Welcome to the show, Peter. Frida, nice to see you. Let's start with you, Peter. You're active duty, but you've had a lot of training in cyber. Can you talk about it? I mean, to the extent you can talk about it. For sure, yeah, absolutely. Yes, I've been in the Navy for about 20 years now. I've done training pretty much every tour we go to just on how to be better professionals in the cyberspace and how to work with the computers and work really in the ether because that's where everything's going. That's where all of our technology is now. We're all connected. We're going to talk about Cyber Security Month and just how important that is. Training for a whole career, really. I think Frida will say the same. So 20 years ago, it wasn't nearly as much of an issue as it is today. No, 20 years ago, we had a single computer in our office that we all shared and password sharing wasn't a thing. We have come a long way. I want to talk about that. So Frida, you're a retired civilian member of IndoPay Common. Am I right? Did I get that right? You're retired military, but you're a civilian now. Does that make you senior to Peter? We're all teammates. We'd like to think of ourselves as teammates. But yes, I am retired Navy. And upon my retirement, I started working civil service because as you know, cyber, and back when I started, it wasn't even called cyber. I think it was, you just worked IT or information technology, but it's ever evolving. And it does take the continuity and the learning, the training that you were referring that Peter had. And so instead of just staying retired, I wanted to continue to expand on my knowledge and serving my country. So government, civilian was the route for me. It's great. It's all the more important. I was telling you before the show that we had a discussion about China last hour. It was not that particularly strategic, but one of the points that came up was if China goes after Taiwan and they say they will, they'll probably do cyber first, soften it up. And likewise, look what Putin did in Ukraine. Use cyber to soften Ukraine up and then made a made hamburger out of it. Well, I would say that cyber is on everyone's radar. And the wars are probably going to move from a kinetic to cyber. And I think everyone's trying to leverage it for good things as well as not so good things. So that's why we're here to kind of push cyber security awareness so that we can keep our nation safe. Well, you talk about awareness. Everybody talks about awareness. Peter, I mean, how much is it awareness and how much is it technology, where you actually have a machine that, you know, identifies cyber attacks and deals with them. University had a program recently, which I thought was very interesting about intrusions, intrusions into the academic world. And of course, there are people intrusions, you know, they're fishing and what have you, all kinds of things like that. But at the end of the day, they were getting into the data. They were getting into the data by way of cyber attacks. And so how much of it is people and how much of it is technology? Yeah, so I mean, I think it's, it's both obviously, but I think, you know, we really have to focus on that training the individuals. So roughly, you could say about 90% of our cyber attacks, all kind of kind of, you can trace them back to origination with a person, right? It's a man or a woman on a mouse, clicking a link, or we're doing something in the cyberspace, that basically providing access to someone. So it's incredibly important that we educate the people, educate all the workforces. Peter, let's talk to you. Okay. You know, the thing, the thing about it is that we have two communities here. One, we have the, you know, maybe three, we have the, you know, the ordinary Joe Dokes people like me, you know, who worry about ransomware individually or to the company. And then we have business people who could be very large businesses like Sony, for example, getting hacked by North Korea, that sort of thing. Big business has big effect when you hack, somebody gets big like that. And then we have government, and especially the military. So which of those communities are you involved in? So we are actually, as we stated, we work for the Department of Defense, but I would argue cyber being leveraged for all types of things, if it be in Hollywood, if it be our infrastructure, if it be the government. You know, to deny and disrupt is a goal of every adversary, using any type of technology or any means that they can. And I guess part of what we are really here to talk about is how a lot of these, these compromises are these threats, malware, ransomware, fishing, whatever it may be. A lot of it is attributed to users being uninformed, business and independent users alike, uninformed on the ways that they can protect themselves. You know, I would argue, Jay, that the cyber hygiene could actually stop a lot of this activity. And so the purpose of Cyber Security Month is to make people cyber aware. If you're not clicking on things that you don't recognize, and a lot of these attacks that you mentioned, if you look at the reporting, a lot of it happened in places that, to its point, didn't have password security, didn't have updated versions of software, didn't do the basic rudimentary cyber hygiene things to keep themselves safe. So regardless of the industry, if it be in academia, in the marketplace, or even the DOD, the overarching message and the way ahead and the way to protect ourselves is to be cyber aware and to do the due diligence, to actually make sure that we're doing practices, they call them best practices in our world to protect our networks. That would take us a very long way. The point of view of fishing and being vulnerable and being silly and not practicing hygiene, that's one thing. But you know, what about, what about software that'll spot this? What about hardware that sort of closes down ports automatically? What about ways to protect your network that do not involve people, that only involve hardware and software that work automatically? Do we have that? Does anybody have that? I would say to that, the big thing on that is being smart with it. So recognizing there's software out there that you can get, there's free software that you can get out there. Microsoft has a good program that's completely free. You can put on your computer to help protect you from ransomware attacks, malware attacks, those types of sorts of things. So yeah, there's absolutely pieces of software out there you can go and grab yourself. There's also websites you can go to. So cisa.org is a great website to go to. That one will provide you information on ransomware attacks and really how to avoid putting yourself in a susceptible position. I think the big piece on this too is that with COVID, for the past two years, we have, you know, the workforce working from home has increased exponentially. So there's so many more people on these devices that they really have to be protected. Protecting themselves and be smart. Yeah, that's true. And the world has changed in the past year and a half, almost two years now. But let me ask you, Frida, with Zoom, when Zoom first got popular and everybody was on Zoom, and trust me, we are on Zoom all the time, and we're talking to the whole world. We have correspondence in every continent. But query, Zoom said they added security patches on their program. Over the past year, about a year ago, they made a big thing about that because WebEx seemed to be ahead of them and maybe Skype was ahead of them in terms of security. So they put some resources into being more secure. But it strikes me actually when what Peter says that if we are all talking to each other, if our meetings, including meetings that, you know, would be somewhat sensitive, that are sensitive, are on Zoom, how safe is that? How safe are these virtual programs? Or should we be concerned about them too? You have to tell you, I'm not aware of any sensitive meetings that are happening on Zoom, but unless you're telling family secrets, talking to your family, but I would say, just to kind of roll back your previous comment about the things that automatically provide cybersecurity for us, I would argue behind every application and every system and every piece of equipment that you think could protect you, that there's a person correlated and connected to it. And that person must configure it properly and stay abreast of all the vendor updates and changes. Zoom is not exempt from that. Zoom has built-in security, just like for this meeting. You sent us a link. It could have been forwarded to someone else. And if the link is not associated with a password and things like that, so security is as much as you put on it or as much as you don't. Those are the things that make us vulnerable. And just to kind of reiterate, the reason that we're here is to really push user behavior. There are so many things that can be mitigated and stopped just by educating users. You are the real Rita Clanton, right? You know, it strikes me from talking to you, Peter, that you guys are on the defense. You're playing defense and ball here. You're trying to protect people and have them protect themselves at every level, including civilian, military, whoever you talk to, so that they don't get hacked and ripped off and ransomed and the like. But somewhere in the bowels of government, we all walk around thinking this, there's another team. Maybe it's not your team and some other team. It's in the basement somewhere that go the reverse way that are playing offensive. Now, you don't have to say anything. Just nod your head left and right. I assume it's not all defensive. Am I right? Well, you can't play a game correctly if you don't have an offense and a defense. So we know just the laws of how things go. But I will tell you to your point, and I hate to jump in. Our goal is to definitely to teach and to help, number one, to defend our nation. And that does not mean that there aren't other games being played, but specifically for us, defense. And that comes from our government, DOD, the marketplace and all. And that's why we're really here to just try to get this awareness. You brought up universities. And so the threat to leveraging the technology exchanges, the technology advances, if we don't safeguard just our university, where they're researching and they're creating new things. So pay through 12, our children. So we want to come and just talk about how to be cyber smart across all industries, all people. And we believe, because we do play on the defense, that there are ways to defend your network. And to Pete's point, if you're going from work to home using the same device, there's the website he provided, Sysa, how to protect your organization. There's risk with that, if you're not safeguarding your home computer, and you're doing work at home. So we just, we believe you can. Oh, I do too. And, you know, I think it's an ongoing issue. And we have to pay more attention to it, not less. But at the same time, Peter, I have the impression that the bad guys out there, I want to call them the black hats, or the national, you know, the nation players, you know, who get involved directly or in hacking us, and, you know, disrupting us, getting our data, whatever it may be. They're not static here. They're working day and night to do better. They're working day and night to have the ability to disrupt us and have the ability to get our data. So, you know, hygiene today, maybe arguably good enough today. But what about tomorrow? This is all a moving target, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I think we've already talked about it a little bit, how just in the decades how much stuff has changed. The adversary is always evolving. And with that, I mean, we're always evolving. We're always trying to be better and trying to defend our networks better. But there's going to come a time where there is guys like me, there's girls like Frida, we're going to, you know, we're going to move on and, you know, we're not going to understand the technology just in the future. And we need that. That's where we need those kids who really embrace cybersecurity, understand it, and then get excited by it. I think that's the big part of it. Get excited that it's not just sitting behind a computer all day, 12 hours a day, just like in a way. You're doing stuff for the better country, the better corporation that you're working towards to really improve the process. We start to get those kids excited now in 10 years. They're going to be replacing us in that making the country and keeping up with those advances that you're talking about. Yeah, you hope the educational system will do it for them. I bought the same token, Frida. We hope the educational system in terms of clean computer hygiene will do it for them. Because, you know, some kids, listen, some kids are smart. I wouldn't give you percentages on this. I have the sense that you surround yourself with kids. I bet there are kids in your life. That's my personal fact. It's just sort of personality style kind of thing. But it seems to me that it doesn't necessarily come easy. Kids sometimes, especially in COVID, you know, school is a different experience. Learning is a different experience. Commitment to achievement, probably a different experience. So how do you deal with the possibility that these kids aren't getting it? That they care about the games, but they care about the fun things, maybe social media, you know, stroking their friends, what have you, but they don't care about protecting themselves, defending, you know, their data, defending the stability of their lives. How do you make them understand? What do you say to them? What's the forum for this? But you have to tell you, I respectfully disagree. I've met doctors who talk about how the reason they wanted to become a physician is because of some medical trauma that happened in their life to a loved one or to themselves. When people grow up and find a profession, usually it's attributed to something. And we have so many things surrounding cyber. I mean, there's automobiles that have just smart homes, smart automobiles. There's sustainability things. I do have a daughter, she's 17, and she wants to be an attorney, but I'm telling her. It's just making a wild guess there. No, okay. So they keep you going, hopefully. But I believe that our gamers, our current day gamers, is they become more versed about how things work and suffer a little, I don't want to say tragedy, but they've been hacked. We have young people who their Instagram or their social media, and they see these things happen and it sparks something and they want to know how to protect. I have a girlfriend who her daughter's in high school and I know that Mililani has a cyber security club. I think our schools are starting to get it. Many have cyber clubs and it's not just coding, it's not just math. They're getting in at all levels. And I think it's up to people like me in uniform that definitely, I mean, it's a great career in the military, but it's up to us to not make it so taboo or a mystery, but really it's a part of everyone's everyday life. So how do we convince a kid to protect their image or their social media or in the future, maybe their money through Bitcoin? I don't know where it's going, but I do know that through tragedy or interest, our young people are becoming cyber aware because things are happening and they want to know how do I protect them. So Peter, it strikes me that if I was considering the Navy, I'd really like to have a career like you had because it makes me valuable not only in the Navy for the defense of the country, it makes me valuable for the defense of the business end of the country because of what I learned in the Navy. And I wouldn't necessarily want to be a trooper in a war theater, but I would want to learn everything the government can teach me about this because I can't think of a place. Honestly, I mean, even with the gamers, I can't think of a place that's a better place to learn about this than the military itself. You agree? Oh, absolutely. We could go all day about the benefits of just general military, join the military and what is done for me in my life, how it's grown me as a man. But the cyber realm is, I've learned so much there. It's definitely put me in a great place for when I get out of the service, but I also just say military as a whole, just learning, putting these guys out forward, they're going to develop skills. It doesn't matter if you're in cyber, if you're the ground troop guy like you're talking about, or if you're on a ship or you're an aircraft, you're going to learn skillsets, you're not going to learn anywhere else in the world. Leadership and just camaraderie. And talking enough about the military and what it's done. That's pretty attractive, actually, as a career and a career leading to another one. You know, the kind of career that Frida has had. My friend. Frida, I want to ask you some substantive advice on this. You know, we talk about hygiene, okay? Can we drill down a little bit? So first of all, I don't get my password to anybody. This is great commercial where this kid is at his computer and he turns to his mother and he says, Mom, what was the password on our IRA account again? As somebody is asking him this, you know, fishing with him, and he's fishing with her. But so it's not just that. It's much more than that. It's more than being smart and who you deal with. I mean, there's so much, you know, I get 500 emails a day, every day. And of those, I'm suspicious of a substantial percentage of them. And not that I know any more than anyone else, but you have to learn to be suspicious. So what are the parameters of suspicion? Well, I will tell you that to your point, the first one, there's a common thing that occurs on Facebook where people go, there's a litany of questions and it says, have you ever done this? Gone here? What was your favorite pet? What was your, you know, those are fishing. That is a form of fishing. It's very popular. It normally has about 15 heavyweathers. And it is via monitoring. People use that. So it is not only that, Jay, but I will tell you that that is very commonplace. It's all over social media and I cringe every time I see it. And why is it wrong for me to tell them about my pet? Well, we know the security questions for those of us that have set up, and even for kids, if they haven't set up a credit card account or an account somewhere asking your security questions, what was your high school? Where did you meet your spouse? Which, you know, they may not be married or what was your favorite pet? What was your pet's name? Data Lake. It's just creating data on data on data and with the onset of artificial intelligence and machine learning, there's some really smart people out there that can create a profile on you and just track it for years or go back retrospectively from when you first set up your Facebook account and just glean and gather so much information. And so being cyber aware is being aware of that type of threat. Now, your point about your email. You can send email for the DOD aspect. We have requirements like it has to be encrypted or it'll identify if it's coming from a non-DOD source. So for us, the labeling is much clearer, but we still have to be very smart. One litany test that you can give for every email, do you know this person? Are you somewhat affiliated with them? Is it an official account? And are they asking you things that normally you would not be asked? If you get an email from a bank and they're saying, hey, we need you to verify your credit card information, your birthday, and your account number, call the bank. Don't trust it. I would say hit delete because yes, that is fission. That is fake. That is not how banks operate. However, if you're concerned, what you can always do, don't click on any links or attachments because they're loaded with what we call malware and it can really, it can traverse across your whole computer, lock it up, create ransomware, really reel you inactive from that point on. So no clicking on links. If you open it, look at the point of contact and call. Is this really who they say they are? I would say delete it if it looks questionable. And some systems, depending on if it's your work or if it's your personal, you can report it. Even with Gmail, you can report spam. You can block it. Jay, you may need to block some of those 500 emails. I do. I delete them. And you know, I mean, in these difficult political times, so many of them are political emails asking me to send money, asking me to support this candidate or that candidate, take this position or that position. And I get two reactions. One is, are these all legitimate? Can they be so many of them all legitimate? Are they really going to put my money where they say they're going to put my money? Or are they just going to take my money and get my credit card? What have you? I mean, it's just so threatening, really. If you think about it, I take your point. I think the user has to see, has to imagine a cloud of personal information out there where there's one nefarious person or organization is gathering everything from every source and making a profile on you about everything. And with that profile, they can do terrible things. I think you have to see it that way. Maybe that sounds paranoid, but I think you have to see it that way. I don't think that's paranoid at all, Jay. I think we use the term in the military a lot, the puzzle pieces, right? So all those pieces of information and they're just puzzle pieces. Eventually, someday a bad guy is going to get enough puzzle pieces to get the whole picture and they can do some damage. Well, what happens, Peter? I'm sorry. Go ahead for you. I just wanted to say into each point, the bad guy doesn't have to necessarily be China. It's just people leveraging cyber bad hygiene weaknesses. It's theft. So people used to go into stores, maybe gunpoint, and now it's a keyboard to get robbed. I totally agree. Some American people living in this country just playing. And that includes people that are right on the line too. It isn't necessarily nefarious. It's just rip off. And there's a fine line between cyber attack and hacking and just ordinary cheating and fraud. It's all out there. So Peter, let me ask you this. I mean, suppose something is acting funny on your computer. I mean, if he was saying, better delete that if there's any suspicious aspect to it, but what about a higher level of suspicion? What about, oh, this looks infected or this is doing things I never saw before, blah, blah, blah. When I come to the intellectual conclusion that there's something haunting my machine. What do I do? Do I take it down to Best Buy? Do I throw it in a trash? Do I pour kerosene on top of burn it? What do I do? Yeah. So I'd say the first thing is one thing you can do is throw it in the trash, right? Because various people will go through trash cans. They will find that. They will find ways around that malware. They will take everything on that. Yeah, two shades. Don't throw your old laptops in the trash. Okay. I'd say there's two ways to look at that. So if you're at work, obviously, you're going to follow the rules that your IT department has set forth. And you don't follow them. I'm not that person. But isolating a box from a network is one way to prevent that from you. If you're getting that suspicious activity, you need to prevent it from putting any more information out there in the world or taking more stuff on board your computer. Then the other one, hit a professional. So if it is going down to Best Buy and talking to G Squad, that could be one option. The other option is talk to some peers, talk to friends. I just had some, one of my computers actually was acting up and I couldn't figure it out. I talked to a friend and he gave me some advice on that. Was it infected? Was it hacked? It was not hacked. No, unfortunately, when I moved out to my new location, I unplugged it straight from the power and it put it into a loop. Anyways, that's a long story, a different show. Yeah, that's what I'd say. If it's acting funny, don't continue clicking emails, don't do all that stuff. You need to stop what you're doing and step back from the situation, figure out what your next step is, remove from the network, all your IT support people, or get some help outside, especially if you don't understand what this is. Is that what you guys do? You guys serve in that capacity for Indopecom? I mean, some officer at Indopecom or listed, whatever, call you and say, look, my machine is acting up. Can you take a look at it? Is that part of your role to do that? That's not to say my role, but we definitely have those people like any corporation. We're a big building with lots of computers. We have an entire team dedicated to help us with our IT infrastructure. That's not to say my role. So, Frida, it seems to me that we started out with this notion it's all the more threatening all the time. It's external from nation states, but it's also internal from our own kids and wise guys who like to disrupt people just for drill. It's the same people who do bully on social network. That kind of negativity. And so, the question is the system, which is an open system in the network. Internet was always intended to be. I suppose there might have been a moment back when we could have built an internet that required you to identify yourself or you could do anything, but we're way past there now. It can get around anything. And it's getting more sophisticated, clearly. So, your office, your role, your function for the Navy or for the military, you know, Indo-Pecom, has got to be more demanding all the time. It's got to be bigger role. I mean, how do you see this evolving in terms of the defense of the military, the defense of the nation? I mean, I see the two of you now. If I look at my screen two years from now, the before of you, I know it. I mean, same different people, of course, but, you know, two more of you. And I'm wondering how you see this all changing going forward. You must think about that. I do. And I will tell you that, first of all, I have the utmost confidence in our nation to get after the challenge. Part of that is top notch military that gets top notch training. And there's a lot of things that we do to protect citizens, the military does. And then it's government civilians like myself, some who have served in the military like myself and some not, who prioritize being the best at what they do. I myself take education seriously, certifications, and you're right, we do need a bigger workforce, like anything that's new and evolving. I mean, I remember not closely related, but when the only thing you could order for food delivery was a pizza. And now we have DoorDash and Grubhub and we have competition in the market. And you can pretty much get anything and they need a much more workforce. Well, I kind of equate that on a higher scale to what we're doing. And that's another reason, Jay, while we're here. And it's definitely to demystify what cybersecurity is, to definitely address how we can be cyber smart, but also just to encourage, you know, we're available to come talk to schools. We want to partner with the community. We are good. Good. He does. No, we are. We definitely want to encourage our young people to not only understand that it's a lucrative career, you do well for yourself. It's a lot of availability, but also it's rewarding and it's informative. And this is where the world's going. There will not be one aspect of our lives. I mean, they have refrigerators that have platform IT that can tell you what's in your refrigerator and order it to a store. I mean, there's not one aspect that won't require some knowledge of cyber space and cyber community computing. Yeah, I'm waiting for the refrigerator that has sensors on it. And it says I'm a little too big. And I really shouldn't be opening the door of the refrigerator. And it says something like, you know how I can't do that for you. I mean, when is that my hand? So yeah, I can agree. Well, Peter, one of the things that happened this week, which I'm still kind of processing, is that the king of social media, Facebook, has apparently changed its name or is contemplating changing its name to meta, like for meta data, META. And of course, Congress is interested, everybody's interested about how they affect public opinion. And the algorithms they use to elevate, quote, engagement on top. And engagement means raw meat, kind of information that gets people excited, you know, divides them and undermines, for example, the integrity of a given community by having everybody mad at each other. So my question is, you know, is that something we should be concerned about? Because it's another kind of this mental hacking is social hacking, is hacking the society, if you will, and it can have a terrible effect. But it runs headlong into the First Amendment. And so, you know, Amy Klobuchar is serving as a chair, I don't know what committee, some committee in the Senate, is trying to figure out what to do. So I'm wondering where this whole thing about social media fist, because obviously social media is here to stay, 3.7 billion people in the world use Facebook. That means it's very influential. It wants to be negative. That has a huge effect. So where is it going? What do you think about that? Where is that play, you know, alongside or in comparison to what you're doing with cyber? Yes. So, and then that is a very complex thing that is going on with that for sure. And I know it means qualified to speak on a legal front on how Facebook is using posts and all that stuff. But it's a real thing that you're talking about. I mean, me personally, how we can combat it is almost too simple to say that it's common sense. You have to look at every piece of information that you take in and then validate it, right? If I read a headline that says next person is doing something nefarious, and I just believe that, then well, of course, I'm going to be swayed against that person and do a fact checking. Well, that's not going to help help me be open to what the reality is. So from our perspective at our job, though, you know, that's not in our realm of work, right? That's an internal political piece that within the nation. So we will never be defending against first amendment rights of citizens or corporations. That is way outside the realm of Okay, I just mentioned it for the comparative value of it. Yeah, we're almost out of time, Frida. And I want to ask you to, you know, to give us your thoughts, your message, if you will, to the community about what you do, about what's coming down the pike these days, about what they should be thinking about. Can you give me a minute or two on your message to the community? Sure, Jay. So our message to the community as cybersecurity professionals is to number one, to Pete's point, the information that you digest, educate yourself on misinformation, social media usage, what your children are looking at, and those are personal choices. But the most important thing is called cyber hygiene. And to take a look at your cyber footprint, what is a cyber footprint, Jay? Well, that's just how much of yourself you're putting out in the cyber world. To each person, that means something different. If you are a LinkedIn user, if you are a social media Instagram, Facebook user, if you are even Pinterest, I'd love to pick out patterns and do different things. But all this data is collected and correlated under your identity, that awareness and understanding how to safeguard your passwords, your social media, and the cross population of your workplace, your school place, and your home place creates a big rep pattern. So we just want to bring awareness. Again, we referenced the sysa.gov page. It has K through 12 resources for teachers and educators, and even parents, as well as adults. It has another section that teaches you how to protect yourself against malware, how to gauge those emails that you're getting. What we want more than ever is for people to be cyber smart, because we feel that there's a deficiency there. People want to use applications. They don't read and understand what implications come with them downloading that app. Also, we want to bring awareness to the career force. I would love for every young person who is somewhat moved by me and Pete join the Navy, because as a Navy retiree, I love the Navy and like him, I partner with how much the camaraderie, the lifestyle, serving your country, but also the training. And also, it's a great profession. But if that's not for you, higher education, through your homework, study, take these things serious, because I mean, empty bank account, you could be a victim, be cyber smart. Yeah, join the Navy and see the world electronically. So Peter, what would you add to that? And can I ask you to fold one other point in? I guess you guys know there are some Luddites out there that have a phobia about computers in general. When we have a conversation like this, they don't want to hear about it. I don't deal with computers. I am completely a Luddite. What would you say to them too? Yeah, I mean, computers and technology is not something to be feared. It is something to be respected for sure, and to be aware of and understand it. But look at what it's doing to us right now. Rita is on the other side of the island, Jay. You're on one side. We're just chabbing away here all through the power of technology. And it's only going to get more robust and it's only going to help out more. So I think more we can use it to our advantage is better. And it definitely does. And we're talking solely from cyber defense and technology in that sense. It goes across the board, whether it's cancer research, all that stuff, all the medical. Technology is not something to be feared. But I think what you're getting at, Jay, people think of the Terminator and Skynet taking over and stuff like that. But it all gets back to what we were talking about in the beginning. It all comes back to a hand on a button, making bad decisions or making property. I think the end point I would put for all the cybersecurity pieces is you have to have that gut feeling, right? So you got to understand. If it doesn't feel right, step away from the keyboard. There's nothing's going to get hurt. You just take your hands and raise them up your head and not hit and then get a second common sense prevails quite often. Here, here. Peter Benson, Frida Klanton, thank you so much, you guys, for talking to us. It's a great conversation. And I'll be down, I'll be down to Cam Smith to sign up in the morning. Thank you very much. Aloha.