 Hi and welcome, everyone, to today's UNEWIDER research webinar. My name is Simone Schotte, and I am a research associate here at UNEWIDER, and I'm very pleased to share today's session. As some of you may be joining us for the first time today, just a few words about who we are. So we are the United Nations University World Institute for Development Economics Research, and we strive to provide economic analysis and policy advice with the aim of promoting sustainable and equitable development for all. With the onset of the coronavirus pandemic. This has meant reorienting our research focus and changing how we facilitate knowledge exchange. So as part of this process, we are way pleased to have launched this webinar series featuring eminent researchers and development specialists who present the most recent insights on how COVID-19 is changing global development and the economic and social impacts on the livelihoods of people in the global south. Today's topic on COVID-19 on how COVID-19 has affected workers in the gig economy worldwide and then the global south specifically actually provides a very nice and fitting addition to UNEWIDER's own research. Where we continue to investigate how the pandemic and the government response measures have affected the livelihoods of workers in wage and self employment, and in different types of both formal and informal work. So today we are going to be looking at a very specific group of workers who are kind of in an intermediate position and yet very vulnerable. So without further ado, let me introduce to you our today's speakers. Our main presenter today will be Funda Ustix-Bilder, who is a post-doctoral researcher and project manager at the Fairfax Foundation, Action Research Project at the Oxford Internet Institute at the University of Oxford. Funda's background is in sociology with semantic focuses on labor, migration and gender. Her current work at the Fairfax Project explores and aims to improve the pay and working conditions of platform workers around the world. So today she will introduce the Fairfax Foundation's work and the fairness ratings for digital labor platforms that they have developed. She will also discuss the findings of the Foundation's COVID-19 research, for which they have to integrate nearly 200 platforms in more than 40 countries of the majority of which are located in the global sites. Her presentation will be followed by Arturo Ariagada's talk on the platform economy in Chile and the impact of COVID-19 on the workers in Latin America. Arturo is a principal investigator for the Fairfax Project in Chile. He is associate professor of communications at the Universidad Adolfo Ibanez, where he conducts research on the intersection of media, technology and society. He's also the director of social media culture, a research laboratory based at the School of Communications and Journalism that studies the role of social media and platforms in social and economic life. So before I turn the microphone over to Funda, just a few words on how today's seminar is going to work. So we will first listen to both Funda's naturalist presentations and we'll then have time to discuss together. For this purpose, I invite you to submit your questions via the Q&A function at the bottom of the screen. You can submit your questions at any time and I will collect them and then read them out at the end of the presentations. Funda has also prepared a couple of polls for you and I invite you to participate in these. And then at the end, please note that the webinar will be recorded and shared on the UNIWIDE's YouTube channel in the next days. So let me stop here and turn the microphone over to Funda. Thank you. Thank you very much for the introduction. Hi everyone and thanks for joining us today on this webinar. It's really great to have you all. My name is Funda Ustek and I work at the Fair Work Foundation based at the Oxford Internet Institute. We've been researching working conditions in the global gig economy over the past several years. My presentation today includes a bit of introduction to what we do at Fair Work and also our most recent report which came out fresh out the oven last week on COVID-19. To start us with, I prepare two questions. So please answer the poll. So the first one is how has your use of platforms changed during the pandemic? It has increased, it has decreased or it has not changed. And the second question is how has your tipping of gig workers changed during the pandemic? It has increased, it has decreased, it has not changed. It's very exciting. Watch this. See the numbers rolling. Okay, so the results are already in. The majority said to the first question that their use of platforms increased during the pandemic. This is, I guess, expected, but still this is an overwhelming majority 58% said this. 13% said it has decreased and 29% of the participants today said it has not changed. And for the second question, majority of people said their tipping has not changed during the pandemic, 53%. Although a close second is those who said it has increased by 42%. All right, thank you. So my title of my presentation today is looking after looking ahead after COVID-19 fair work in the gig economy. But first I would like to discuss what we mean by fair work. The gig economy or platform economy as a sometimes called is we refer to the economic transactions that are happening through via and on digital platforms. We can distinguish between digital platforms that enable people to sell commodities such as Airbnb or eBay and those where people can sell their labor. And at fair work, we focus on the second group of platforms and examples include multinational platforms such as Uber and delivery. And among the digital platforms we make a further sort of differentiation between cloud work and geographically tethered platform work. And this means that cloud work platforms such as Amazon Turk or Upwork where the work can in theory be done from anywhere in the world. And geographically tethered platform work where the work is done in a particular location and the workers need to be in the place where the consumers or the clients are. In terms of the scale of the platform economy, there are varied estimates and no one actually knows how big it is. We are recently working on a working paper to estimate the size and because of the uncertainty of the numbers, the estimates range between 11 million to 440 million at the moment. And we have, we are using a variety of studies for this estimation. And as you will see from this slide as well, the numbers are vastly different, but it is predicted that by 2025 one third of all labor transactions will be mediated by digital platforms. And this prediction was made pre COVID. It's only likely to increase further after our current situation. The way the gig work model works is that instead of an employment relationship, the platform presents itself as a simple intermediary between the consumer and the worker. What this means is that they do not officially employ the worker and treat the worker as essentially an independent business irrespective of whether the classification is legitimate or not though the point is that workers are not protected by the rights that they would have if they were employees. And this has this creates a range of issues. Big work is by definition precarious and insecure and carries a lot of risks. It's often unsafe. In most cases, there's an oversupply of labor power, which leads to financial vulnerability. And there's low pay. Sometimes workers are paid below the minimum wages. And some workers experience explicit discrimination and some some experience wage theft. And because of their employment status, they're often unable to make cases in legal cases against the platforms. And there is an inability to collectively organize and bargain. At fair work, we have a range of different activities. The first one is to co develop a set of fair work principles with the people and organizations that they impact on workers and platforms. The second is carrying out of research carrying out research to evaluate platforms against the principles, the fair work principles. And third we use our research to give every major platform in all the countries where we are present a fairness score. And this is a score out of 10. The plan is to start assessing geographically tethered platforms, but we are actually now also assessing cloud work platforms. And our ultimate aim is to use these scores to change the working conditions. Fair Work is now operational in India, South Africa, Germany, UK, Indonesia, Chile and Ecuador. And in 2021 we will be further expanding to Bangladesh, Brazil, Egypt, Hong Kong, Pakistan, Ghana and Ukraine. To give a brief description of our current principles, which make essentially, which determine essentially what we mean by fair work. The first one is fair pay. So paying at least minimum wage and the workers jurisdiction after taking account of work related costs. The second is fair conditions, which is intended which intends to protect the workers, health and well being. The third one is fair contracts, which aims to ensure at a minimum following national law and having a clear contract for the workers, but also not engaging in the direct misclassification of workers. The fourth one is fair management. This means having an appeals process for disciplinary procedures and policies that ensure equality in the ways workers are managed. And finally fair representation. This means having a process through which worker voice can be expressed and recognizing collective bodies like unions where they exist. So if you would like to have a detailed look into our principles, if you go to fair.work, that's our website and all our reports and principles are there. And you would then see that we actually have different principles, even though the overall five principles are the same. We have different principles, specific principles for geographically tethered work and cloud work. So moving on to our COVID report. Can we have our third question for the poll. So the third question for the poll is do you think the policies platforms rolled out during the pandemic are, I'm sorry. Sorry, that's my editing error there are the responsibility of. I'm so sorry I've made an error there. The correct question, of course, what is I've got it. Perhaps I'll just stop this and I'll edit and we can share again in just a moment sorry. That's okay no problem. So it's okay I will just go to my next slide and whenever you're ready we can do it. Thank you. In the meantime I will introduce our COVID-19 report. We released our first COVID-19 report in April 2020 and covered 120 platforms across 23 countries in Europe, North America, South America, Asia and Africa. The report was released. We received an overwhelming response positive response from every from people who interviewed us who responded to our report. And we applied for some further funding from the University of Oxford, and that allowed us to continue our research up until the end of August. As of September 2020 our second report covered 191 platforms in 43 countries across Europe, North America, South America, Asia and Africa. And in this second report we increased the number of countries that we represented in the global south and particularly looked at the differences between how multinational platforms and the local or regional platforms were responding to the crisis. The report is organized according to the five fair work principles which I just presented and uses these to rate the platforms against decent work standards. I've got this whole now I feel like. All right, let's do that. Okay. So the third question for the poll is in your opinion whose responsibility is it to provide financial help to workers during the pandemic. Is it the governments, is it the platforms, the unions, gig workers themselves, or you don't have an opinion. It will be very interesting to sort of cross tabulate this with where you work as well. Maybe in the discussion, we can discuss further. Okay. According to the results 56% of the respondents said it's the government's responsibility and nearly 40 said it's the platform's responsibility and 4% said no opinion and 2% only one person said it's the unions responsibility. All right, let's go to the details of our findings. So our findings indicated that by far the most important issue for workers was fair pay, yet 10% of the platforms we surveyed. So around 19 of them out of 199 provided pay loss compensation to their workers platforms instead resorted to or resorted to expanding their operations or increasing the number of jobs available on on their platforms. But they also deflected responsibility to governments in order to avoid future liabilities. With fair conditions we actually divided into two. One of them is about preventing the workers from getting ill. And the second one is what the platforms did if the workers got ill. So in terms of prevention contactless delivery was by far the most widespread policy that we found in this category, but contactless delivery is not always possible for all workers. And it's hygiene guidance and personal protective equipment was not always available for for the workers in terms of the illness related measurements around half of the platforms were providing some payment for the workers who were ill. But when the government financial relief packages were extended to include gig workers, some platforms shifted their focus on assisting the workers to assess these schemes instead. However, the accessibility of these policies remains unknown to the extent that we do not necessarily know whether they were easily accessible or hard to access. With fair contracts and fair representation, we did not necessarily find any positive policy despite growing worker action, but we have identified a couple of platforms which are state workers to understand that if they received sick leave payments or any kind of financial compensation from the platforms during the pandemic. This would not alter their terms of work, which means that they would not necessarily these are not employment benefits. These are one of benefits provided by the platforms. And with fair management, only a few platforms guaranteed no loss of earnings and no loss of ratings incentives, or any other kind of achieved status at the platforms, despite the fact that there's an ongoing a low levels of work and some some workers were unable to work for longer periods of time on the platforms, and a couple of platforms pledge to onto discrimination policies, which meant which is because during COVID, we also received have identified discrimination against the particular groups of gig workers, increasing either because of their background, or because of their susceptibility to to the virus. If you find our report online, you will see we have organized the platform responses in a policy table, and we have grouped the platforms we surveyed according to the countries where we found them. And you will see that from Morocco, Tunisia to Nigeria, Kenya, Ghana, Ghana, sorry Ghana and Brazil, we have surveyed a variety of countries 43 to be exact. And, and in some of them you will identify that some platforms were surveyed multiple times in different countries, yet the their policies that they rolled out are different from country to country, even when they might be multinational platforms. So what did we find. This can be organized across five headings. The first one is that there is a definitely a gap between rhetoric and reality. What what what platforms say they're providing for your workers do not necessarily reflect what workers can realistically and feasibly access in terms of the policies. We found a skew in stakeholder focus and what we mean by this is that platform responses to a large extent have targeted shareholders investors and customers before workers so contact with delivery for instance protects, even though it protects the workers to an extent it protects the customers more. We also, especially in the second report when we were working on the second report we have identified that there has been an increasing surveillance measurements and surveillance related policies being rolled out by the platforms, which conflict surveillance with safety. So, in some platforms, for instance, required workers to share their temperature scans or temperatures or require them to require them to send their selfies took their pictures when they're waiting in line without their consent. So these kind of data related issues have increased, especially in the global south. We also identified a widening gap between different types of platforms so large platforms, mainly the multinationals platforms have been able to set aside larger funds for covert 19 health and safety measures, then then smaller ones understandably. So, and also they have been able to more namely switch to new markets and diversify their portfolios, teaming up with other platforms and companies, whereas smaller platforms more local platforms faced greater on search financial uncertainty, which restricted their abilities to roll out more encompassing policies for their workers. Finally, we have identified a gap between needs of the workers and the policies that were rolled out. And the lack of alignment because work what what workers require in order to stay safe. And this includes being also free from being free from infection but also free from financial destitution. And it's not necessarily been on the same level as what the workers need, but what they could, what they were able to access. So in the report, we provide actions that the platforms can roll out specific sort of policy recommendations for fair pay for fair conditions and fair contracts and fair management. But being aware of my time, I'm going to conclude my talk here. And, but I'm happy to discuss these recommendations for both the platforms and the government after my talk. And we have one more poll question, which I will finish with. So the last question is, you have seen, or you can see in this table as well, that they're had the platforms provided a range of policies to protect their workers against the risks during the pandemic. Do you think these policies are likely to stay after the pandemic, or likely to be rolled back once the pandemic subsides. So an overwhelming majority says that they're likely to be rolled back once the pandemic subsides. All right, on that note, I will finish my talk here, but I'm happy to discuss this further after after I told us presentation. Thank you very much. Yes, thank you very much for nervous very interesting and thought provoking presentations already see some questions coming in through the q&a but feel free to continue to submit your questions. Yeah, not going to hand over to Attura for his presentation. How are you. Thanks for inviting me to discuss and present our, our work and with Funda here in this in this online seminar. My name is Artura regada. I'm an associate professor at the School of Communication and Journalists at Universidad Dolphi vanes in Chile. And I am the principal investigator of fair work in Chile. And I would like to present some of our results doing our research in Chile about give work and some of the context and the challenges workers are facing during COVID. The general background of the gig economy in Chile. As Funda mentioned before, we don't have a clear estimate of give workers in the country. According to media media reports, there are approximately 15,000 up delivery workers in the country and 200,000 right hailing workers. But there are not official numbers know and the economic effects of the pandemic in the country has increased the number of people who become part of the gig economy. In the period between May and July in 2020, the unemployment rate nationally reach 13%. And so in that context, again, media articles titled as historic they increase in the number of delivery workers, workers. In some cases, those numbers reaches almost 80% in the case of head rating apps. So we are facing a moment where lots of people and unemployed people and wants to be part of this economy in the country. And from user's perspective, the majority of Chileans according to a national survey in in 2017 and used at least once a year different apps, mostly of course apps like Uber, but also grocery shopping apps are the most used by Chileans know an interesting date and number of that survey is related to and the lack of regulation 65% of respondents considered the lack of regulation as an inconvenient for the prosperity of this market. data about drivers is the most common type of data we can we can find and as I said before, there is an estimated of 200,000 up based drivers in Chile and according to a to to a study published last year and those workers value flexibility but they're declared very long working hours and 30% of drivers operating more than 50 hours per week and 30% of drivers more than 20 hours per day. The COVID-19 experience for gate workers have been unfortunately, but luckily as well for workers a good opportunity to make visible their demands. We wrote an article with my colleagues, Macarena Bonoma and Francisco Ibanez commenting some of the the issues workers considering the most relevant during the pandemic know and they feel unprotected. They are not always receiving protection from platforms. And also, they are at the front line of providing services know and their labor states has no recognition legally and it is interesting that this year three strikes took place in April and July and August by food delivery workers. Their demands were in relation to fair payment, considering that some apps during the pandemic changed their their fees know and and also they were demanding the provision of protective equipment and masks, alcohol, etc. In terms of the regulatory framework and recent policy developments. There's, I mean the most comprehensive bill so far was presented last year by two members of Congress from the left wing coalition Frente Amplio. By classifying platform workers as employees, the bill intends to provide them with a range of rights. For instance, working time and times for rest, transparency in subjects such as decision making data collection and scoring. And the bill creates an inform of employment contracts contract within the labor code, recognizing the specific characteristics of the platform economies working arrangements. Today, up workers are considered as independent contractors know in terms of our research. Last year, we had a workshop with workers with associations of workers platform executives and our research team, people from Oxford and people from our team in Santiago, and during the end of last year and until May. 2020. We did 38 interviews with worker from different platforms. Now we are at the stage of scoring and the platforms and looking forward to receive information from from them to use it as evidence to improve their scores. Based on the first work methodology, the one that fun that described it before. And we have initial meetings and we are waiting for the response and then we will share publicly our scores and the interviews we made know in terms of our findings. We've been interviewing mostly full time workers. And, of course, there are different demands and, for instance, drivers are worried about inspectors and the lack of regulations, because they are working legally. In the case of shoppers and riders, they are worried for the lack of protection, especially during COVID. And they need more presence and help from platforms for healthy issues know In terms of potential topics for for further development in relation to our research. We found three interesting topics know the first one is related with focusing on migrants and their activities. They are illegal workers, but also get workers they have a double and the identity know and documenting on the one hand and on the other hand they are illegal workers. Also the role of informal online groups to share information with with peers. It is interesting how different workers and connect to each other on Facebook on Twitter on what subgroups and sharing information and about the working conditions about how to and do their activities in a safe way. And also it is interesting to to explore in detail the role that spaces like, for instance, public spaces outside the restaurants are in places where workers have a possibility to share with each other know, considering their their their suffer lots of isolation, they don't have too much possibilities to share with other people know And another topic is related with the role of algorithms, especially in relation to privacy issues and the organization of labor and further issues to to to pay attention. We are facing an economic recession in the country and we don't know how the gig economy will be affected. We don't know exactly if if this will increase the number of deep workers in the country. And I am also with there's no public data about their working conditions and we need more data, ideally, national data about deep workers in the country and but also there is an opportunity considering the strikes considering the coverage these issues gain the media. And there is an opportunity to talk about the gig economy publicly know workers proters are gaining media attention so we have the possibility to discuss about the impact of the gig economy in the country and in the the working condition of of these people know So that's my presentation. Thank you. Thank you very much. So looking forward for your questions and comments. Great. Thank you very much for that tour for your presentations. Let's start trying to combine a few of the questions that have been coming in through the Q&A shed function and a lot of these circle around the question of policy recommendations and how can social protection be provided to gig workers. Among them, Ricardo Santos, who's a research fellow at UNI wider, he works in Mozambique and also witness their kind of shift towards more and more gig economy workers, especially in urban areas. And his question is what can we learn from the middle income countries that you have been studying those of you. In particular, does a level of workers protection and a decent working countries offer a good benchmark for what effect the economy has and considering the evidence that you have. What may be the risk to what workers that can be like can be export those models of policy options that you have seen in the middle income countries working or not working can those be kind of exported to other countries or what are good lessons to be from these. And let me combine this with a question of what are kind of the incentives for the platforms themselves to introduce better contracts or to offer as a type of social protection to the workers that can be combined with the traditional business model say of the gig economy. Thank you. You want to go first. All right, I will go first. Thank you very much for these questions. These are really, really very sort of questions. These are questions that go to the core of our research at Fair Work. And in this COVID report we tried to include also low income countries as well as as much as possible but of course we could do this only within our capacity of, you know, language skills, as well as the kind of information that was available online for for the platforms. Even though we have also reached out to platforms to share any evidence they might have with us for this specific report. What are the So you're Ricardo Santos you're asking what can we learn from middle income countries. There are many things to learn in terms of things that can be done but also parts to be avoided. This is why we are sort of in at Fair Work. We are supporting five favorite principles, which are a kind of standard for establishing fair gig economy across the world, but at the same time if you look further into our methodology and the specific principles of those principles, they are very adaptable for local contexts, and we understand that, especially the differences between different sectors and different in different countries and different groups of workers. It's difficult to come up with a sort of a fair work standard that that's going to be one size fits all. The things to watch out for perhaps is to, you know, consider, you know, you're asking whether the effects of gig economy and further hindering workers conditions in high income countries. What are the risks towards workers of the export of these solutions to low income countries there are so many risks. And these risks are really difficult to sort of less one by one now, but I can in general sort of say that the risks are generally related to workers health and well being and just includes both physical and mental well being for working on on these platforms. But also their contractual rights, whether they're able to raise an issue in the courts or whether they can seek legal representation if they have a grievance, and whether there is any accountability on the side of the platforms. When something goes wrong for the workers. These, I'm happy to sort of, you know, answer these questions further in detail because there were so many, but I think I should give the floor to Arturo now as well. You can continue if you want Funda, but let me one short comment I think at this stage, at least in Chile, considering Chile as a mid income country, you know, it depends on the inequality within the country but there are issues of visibility in terms of it is especially in this context it is essential to have data and and the main problem today is a problem that I think great is on on on his question know and the opportunities that the gig economy gives to people who can't work or can't find a job in the market. And that's convenient for for for governments in some ways know, especially when when when you measure unemployment and and and if these people have a source of income from platforms, they are not considered unemployed know and I've been discussing this issue with different entrepreneurs in the country that are involved with the labor statistics and and that's the main tension know no one is interested yet to measure the amount of people who are working for this economy and and labor surveys or unemployment surveys must to include those questions to have a clear idea about the size of this market and then to to discuss regulation possibilities know and at this stage, I think this it's a common issue maybe from that you you have a clear idea about that but it is so difficult to have official numbers related to the size of this market and and without that is difficult to make visible the demands of these people and the possibilities also they should remain working for platforms and to have to have a source of income know and numbers are fundamental official numbers about the size of this market are are essential I think to continue the discussion. Maybe coming in on this point with another question also from the shed like you mentioned that for many workers. The gig economy is essentially the only option to generate an income like especially in like high unemployment context and great stuff for mentions the example of South Africa where you have kind of a broad unemployment rate about 42%. And it has been a thing frequently argued that especially in Africa. The future work probably won't be gross a full time formal sector jobs so and then the gig economy for some time was perceived at least as an alternative and you see the future of this gig work in developing countries such as South Africa and has a COVID-19 pandemic. In a chance or a challenge in this regard like do you think that overall it's been rather improving due to their situation and due to some of the platforms implementing maybe some types of minimum social protection at least Yeah we had the question here how do you strike a balance between still nurturing the benefits of on demand work and achieving fair work at the same time and what in your opinion are good starting points here for country such as South Africa. I think. So our in our project we believe that striking a balance is as possible. And we think that it's the the five principles of fabric we have would help platforms to to sort of strike that balance. And it would also help platforms and the workers and the global south to escape the biggest pitfalls and the risks which we have identified in other countries or in the countries where we operate to avoid those those risks because also our principles have been developed through extensive research and extensive discussions between our country partners as well as the ILO and UNCTAD and and years of research on informality and gig economy in general. And although looking ahead we can think sort of we can speculate that gig economy might replace or might take over some of the existing employment structures in various parts of the world and I would not necessarily limit this to the global south or lower middle income countries because it's a growing type of work and especially if you consider online digital work which has substantially there are sort of you know even though there's it's difficult to come up with any particular statistics on this. It is expected that online gig work has increased during covert because of the general lockdowns many people across the world experience. So coming back to my point about the future. The way to strike the balance is to identify what are the risks now and how we can avoid them. And there are things to do for both platforms for work workers for the governments as well as for the consumers to be able to be to be aware of what the workers are going through and what kind of risks they are being they're going through on an everyday basis is is very important. And with the fair work principles are aim is to both highlight these principles and also provide ways actionable points sort of steps for platforms to mitigate these risks. Thank you for this reply. Maybe I told you want to also come in on this and we had a specific question about whether the results. You found different results in your findings from the global south with us a global noise and maybe also whether the policy responses by platforms have been different. And I have been wondering whether this multinational platforms with a they had also countries specific responses or whether they were more uniform in terms of the type of measures that they have implemented. Arturo would you like to go with this one. No no go go. Okay. So this has been a particular research topic for our report actually, because as you will see some multinational platforms are operational in many of the countries that we have surveyed. And it is difficult for us only why a desk research to identify which of the global policies they have rolled out are actually applicable in the local context in the countries where we have surveyed them. So we have used a couple of different methods. One of them reaching out to the local platforms in the countries, but also any kind of worker reports and information that we could find online and or worker interviews if we could conduct them. And to hear whether these policies that the policy that the platform said they were rolling out were actually available to the workers. And this is what we mean by sort of the gap between theory and reality because some of the policies were even though they were sort of rolled out at the global level. Our study indicated that they were not necessarily accessible by the workers who were in specific countries. So I think there's probably not probably there's definitely more need to do more research on this. But we definitely need to stress that that gap between rhetoric and reality. Right. This makes a lot of sense. Some dimension that we haven't discussed a lot yet is the one of gender differences in your like systematic gender differences in your findings as well as in the possible policy recommendations. And we had a question saying that knowing that the digital labor market tends to replicate the gender device of offline work. Basically, what are some of the important policy interventions that you would recommend to bridge this gender gap. And we had another question on discriminations more general. I think in the report you also refer to other vulnerable groups. For example, if you want to include something on this. Yes. So the gender question and in the report we also refer to discrimination in general. In fact, on the discrimination policy is one of the policies we have. We have surveyed for this report. I was I answered one other question about gender. So I will repeat some of my answer there. So gender is definitely a very important then gender proved to be a very important differentiating factor during the pandemic. Because, first of all, the platforms that had to the majority of the platforms that had to halt their operations. And entirely were the platforms where majority of workers were women. And what I mean by this is that platforms that provide domestic work services care work services, beauty or personal grooming services. The majority of workers on these platforms are women, but due to the nature of the pandemic and the nature of the lockdowns. It's very difficult, for instance, for these platforms to operate on a contactless delivery basis basically because the nature of the job doesn't allow it. You'll remember that in the peak of the lockdowns, for instance, visiting guests were not allowed, let alone someone coming to cut your hair at home. And that women workers were particularly affected during in terms of financial vulnerability during the lockdown. But we also need to look at the particular gender dynamics that are at play here. Women have been women, a majority of women or in the larger proportion, they take the care responsibility at home, and they are likely to take care of their children or the elderly in their family. So the risk of catching the virus for them is really high. It has a really, it has a really high risk. And this means that the risk of being exposed to the virus is not only a personal risk. It's a family wide risk. And even if platforms, although a couple of platforms did this, but majority of the platforms we surveyed, even when they provided sick leave or any kind of healthcare related policies, they did not extend these to the families of the workers. They gave only individual subsidies or healthcare benefits. So this meant that women had to basically step away from gig work, especially for geographically tailored platforms. And they were adversely affected. And this is, this is something we have studied, this is something we have studied in our, in our study. And in terms of particular policies for that, that kind of target women, this is really difficult to just come up with one policy, but it is important to stress the importance of financial compensation, sort of pay related relief to women workers, especially during a lockdown, there has been also increasing reports about violence against women with sort of, you know, the effect of staying at home for longer periods with their families. And, and without financial independence, it's very difficult for these for the women workers to be able to establish themselves outside of the home. So for governments and for the platforms to protect the women workers, the first important thing is to provide financial assistance. And the second is to extend healthcare related protection to women and their families. Thank you. I think we've mentioned a lot of policy options. I think one of the remaining questions, who's going to push for these kind of like, is it mainly government regulations? Is there a role to be played by consumers? No, no, to what extent is it also maybe do you think that your report and releasing this information could help consumers make choices when using this type of platform services, for example? Yeah, those kind of questions, maybe to both of you to end. I think it's a combination of everything. We need that governments regulate and establish a relation with platforms in terms of what are, which are their boundaries to execute the power they have today. They become intermediaries, new intermediaries without being regulated, the majority of platforms. And an interesting aspect, it's not only related to workers, for instance, I'm thinking of delivery workers. There are also restaurants or stores or small businesses that has to deal with platforms as well. Paying a high percentage of their sales for those services and no one is taking or paying attention to that aspect as well. A restaurant has to pay today, at least in Chile, almost 20% of the final price for many, for instance, they using delivery app for that use. That's another dimension of the gig economy. It's not only workers, it's restaurants or small businesses that has to pay a considerable amount of money. And the strange thing is the one who receive those benefits is the final consumer. So we have also to catch their attention in terms of if you want to pay less, you have to assume that you are feeding a change that's not always fair for different actors within that chain, workers, restaurants, business, etc. So I think it's a combination of all of that. I would, I would agree with Arturo here. It's a combination of many stakeholders, consumers, individual consumers or private consumers are definitely a part of this. But it's difficult to put the whole burden on the individual consumers as well because, especially during the pandemic. We are all affected by various things, family considerations, financial considerations. So the individual persons, consumers might not necessarily have the power to be able to stand up against the platforms. But we can also think about consumers as large organizations, as large institutions and definitely the platforms themselves and the governments themselves who are, which are large enough to be able to make a say something against the platforms and make a stand against them. And what I mean by this is that, for instance, in terms of procurement, if your company or the institution you work for allows you to order food from a delivery company, let's say for lunch, if these things still exist. That makes a difference if your institution has a thousand workers, for instance, as a thousand employees ordering food. If your institution is hiring transcription services from an online platform, and they're using the platform that has the lowest fair score rating, fair work score rating, for instance, then that has an impact. And at fair work, we try to sort of visualize this as well and we try to be part of this discussion. It's essentially the responsibility falls on all of us and all the stakeholders in this discussion, but at various levels. Thank you so much for both your presentations and the very insightful discussion. I think we need to close here, but yeah, I think definitely can agree that the economy is here to stay and it's interesting to follow these developments and also the fair work work. Thank you so much everybody for tuning in today and we hope to see you for our next webinars. Thank you. Thank you. Bye. Thank you. Bye.