 George Bruno with the 21 report the European edition. We are in Warsaw, Poland, and I'm talking with Socrates welcome welcome It took me 5,000 miles to get to you We're in Europe Wow, isn't that incredible Wow and not just Europe We're we are now in the new central of Europe The borders have shifted in a lot of ways cultural influences have shifted And what a remarkable city to host this event Can we as Americans learn anything from Poland? Oh, sweet. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, you caught me on this morning, right? Yeah, yes Hands down this city alone is a Magnificent exemplar of culture of people going through tremendous adversity to be situated adversely Between multitudes of people throughout time, you know And so there's kind of a historical component that Poland's always been a highway between wars and that's been throughout all of history Most clearly identified during World War, you know, World War two Very very harshly, you know between the Germans what happened with the sacking of Warsaw specifically You know, you go to the memorial here and they have 18,000 resistant members were killed in a course of 63 days Another 180,000 people Civilians were killed while our allies specifically sat on the other side of a river and sat tight Waiting for the Germans to do what they did and of course when the Germans finished They were so upset and it's kind of kind of an interesting comparison. Here you have a Aryan supremacy race who's consistently lost geopolitically Through multiple of wars even prior to that teutonic nights And so they've been handed some really nasty historical lessons in Poland and they were starting to lose the war then and so What do you do like a drunken parent who is at work being abused failing limiting having stress? You beat your children and Hitler beat Warsaw specifically and took his vengeance out on it and then after the Compitulation when the resistance Effectively swarming surrendered put down their arms went into internment camps and much of the population was then sent to Treblinka He raised the city yeah taking combat engineers to flatten Empty homes to make sure the world knew that this was an example Okay, after that they lost to the Russians the Russians come in and the surviving resistance members were shot and killed They were labeled as collaborators and then Were effectively had no ability to have their own independence which they were fighting for which the Yalta agreement Ignored them their ability to self-government or sovereignty and they lost that and unfortunately that is a blemish on American history It's it's it's embarrassing to walk through and see It's it was a sad moment kind of really kind of look at and be in that city and kind of really feel that And then to sit down and realize these are people who suffered under communism and socialism for so long Who still maintained their identity and were able to win their independence? Successfully yes, and and that you would sit down here would be a remarkable story in itself, but it doesn't end there You can stand in the gardens of their Resistance Museum and look straight across. I mean immediately across these Tremendous modern skyscrapers, and these are not small structures. They are gorgeous. They are vibrant and realize how short a time period That these were created During join immediately following this and you sit down and go how do a people do that? You know and then I take us big step back, and I look at this and go huh as an American I've been taught to worry about something called hypergamy It's laughable. I and I say it's laughable. Yeah, I know it's laughable because In all honesty you talk to the polls who survived this when you talk to the people who were here And they want to know you're American You know you came 5,000 miles Why and you tell me you're going to come into a men's conference on masculinity and relationships and they look at you like You're speaking English and they don't understand and you're trying to convey it and they don't understand Of course, they'll smile and laugh. They go those are your problems You know and they kind of like you know and you know they kind of laugh They're being polite, but they're telling you something first world issues. Yeah first world spoiled entitled children issues Yeah, and I'm not to and to be fair It's not that we should be disparaging that on so I'm right these these are concerns Hypergamy is something to be aware about it is a concern It is dangerous unless you know the rules that govern it can it go too far can it be a cult? Can it be a strange following? Absolutely and in all honesty that was the essence of my talk And specifically you know the speech that I gave was a the cult of hypergamy And the debasement of mankind and because when it does go too far You stop you you end up destroying the natural order things you you destroy A god-given relationship if you will want to sit down and talk about it in those general terms is that We're we don't separate ourselves. You know one of the things I get a tremendous amount of flak for both from both feminist and Red pill followers and particularly some of their their more ardent Red pill philosophers and thought leaders is that I believe the sexes are meant for each other and that has connotations You say that every time you're on stage I have to I you have to because I don't know when somebody's gonna for the first time hear me And that's the first and only time they'll hear it I fundamentally believe if I have it, you know my tagline is I believe the sexes are meant for each other And it's not just that the we have hypergamy and hypergamy that the you know sexual biological Imperatives it's that in a very real sense the sexes are actually compatible and complementary Not in spite of these sexual imperatives, but specifically for those sexual imperatives It's what makes us human Okay, it's what the other animals and creatures fail to develop And even though they may have some of these notions or capabilities It has not gone to the extent and complexity and nuanced behavior It has in humans because we are the most complex We are the most nuanced where you're the most sophisticatedly evolved because of all this And if you ignore all that you are trashing a richness of mankind. Yes And and that that's a hell of a legacy to To disparage The concept of the red pill the ideology red pill thought Has become This strange movement revolving around hypergamy It's a strange direction. It's almost as if someone hijacked it And started driving the bus somewhere else I I I will throw this out. I will say it's a mark of genius And and I and I mean that sincerely If you are hurt by something if you've been traumatized by something and you know, so many of us are And you you want to find a reason why you want to be able to sit down Okay, what was it and I think the what happened was that we had people circling around in on it And that's an element of self-infrospection and I think there's something admirable about that There was reconstitute and so when you sit down and say, okay, you know when we talk red pill We talk about hypergamy and we focus in on the the sexual impairs of women And that's kind of the idea we we can identify the source. It's hypergmy It's it's that's what drove the behavior that was the cause for okay, so we've identified it So the next point we have is we also then couple that immediately with hypergmy doesn't care Okay, because it's a force of nature and nature doesn't care. Okay, nature demands. Okay, and so we say hypergmy doesn't care Okay, so that just relieved you a fault, didn't it that relieved you of age. It's a smoke screen I'm no longer responsible correct for anything. Yes, and it's low agency You're not taking ownership of it. You had no involvement classic blame shifting correct And we and and we have all that and then the third element to all that that the thing that ties this all up In an awesome freaking bow and just presents it as a present Is a phrase All women are like that Yeah Now you've actually eliminated Any future obligation you have to circle back and actually correct the things that you should have had interest before The things you had control and the things you failed to do And you see it time and time and time again with a lot of these thought leaders who have been hurt who have been damaged Who legitimately have honest gripes and been injured, but they're not doing the hard work and interestingly they'll project that They'll they'll criticize other remorselessly. Yeah shamelessly without empathy. Okay about do the hard work And yet there they sit Having not done it themselves They have not turned back on a biological imperative, which is a higher order imperative A sexual imperative is a lower order your prime objective Your prime order is to first survive and we talked about poland poland survived The second was to reproduce and poland interestingly enough their birth rates Skyrocketed after the war which is an interesting fact Not only that they're one of the few nations in this in this hemisphere that have a replacement levels Incredible and that's affecting geopolitics. That's incredible. Let me ask you this if using Some people's Phrase all women are like that Is the flip side of that all men are like that or is it just a one-way street? It will if you swallow that red pill that red pill. Okay, and by the way the red pill is medicine Overdosed Okay, you have a practitioner, you know writing prescriptions and he's overdosing his patients and the reality is yes All men are like that all men suffer from hypogamy, which is a male imperative sexual imperative Okay, and we kind of know that we know that I I like younger women I like a lot of them and I want them to be different I don't want the same woman. Okay, and by the way I'm going to sit down and do it and if you believe the sexes have to be dominated over each other Or exploited of each other. You can't be compatible. You're not complementary to other You're going to have an adversarial relationship and that's how that's exposed But the bottom line is all men naturally have that imperative. It's ingrained. We have this compulsion But we take agency out. We're cultivated. We're taught to not do certain things if we want to have our best interests Yes, and that's not necessarily seed spreading. Okay, because we're not fish. We're not trot We don't just spray and go I mean you can and and and that's one of the reasons why man kind of been terribly successful Because there's more than one track in which we can do this Yeah, but if you want to sit down and say we want to have really well trained humans Which is one of the things we do is we cultivate over extensive amount of time You know gestational period for an adult legally now is 18 years Okay, because that's now when you're adult. So, you know between conception and gestation We're talking 19 or legal adult set. We're talking 19 years for a long got a lesson And we're also trying to push that even further which I actually support I actually think it should be a complete lifespan if you really want to look at it You know Ivan talks about intergenerational wealth. Yeah You know what what if you know more families talked about their legacy of education and development He talks about the family books where they take notes and you know record that and you have this rich family history That's meant for other surviving members to carry forth. That is a legacy building What if we did that with our own children and everybody was able to do it? And that that becomes absolutely phenomenal. So, you know, we do know that men have all these capabilities You're supposed to restrain yourself women for the most part. I've never been taught self-restraint in that regard Okay, that we don't have this awareness. We don't have this culturalization So I think that the idea of teaching hyperpigmentation is absolutely apparent and and appropriate But it should be it should be couched. It should be measured And and it's not a source to go on a witch hunt, you know And in a sense you almost kind of feel like a lot of these thought leaders are it's like the old witch trial She's hypergamous, you know, burn her out and burn her at this stake, you know, and that's this is a gender war There it is. There it is. Yeah, as you wage it yourself You know, it's like you can't be a belligerent in a culture war Yeah, okay, and then they claim that you're you're a victim And so I I think there's a lot of criticism that the red pill has not embraced hasn't been looked at And I think a lot of it's because it was always an underground Online community and because it's becoming more mainstream The thought and scope and practitioners are now changing You have people that are far more diverse far more educated that are bringing other disciplines to bear We're getting people away from the keyboard Ah, yeah, that's that's an interesting one too. Uh, and and I would sit down and say that 21 convention Was one of the first to actually bring people from out from underneath the internet together I know there were other practitioners that had done it. We had a speaker who Had a couple years ago died that was known for this, you know, one was truly a truly underground community And so that there's this rich culturalization of at least meeting face to face Now we're able to do it online, you know, we're filming this now So they're seeing this engagement, but I think some of the most important work we do is not the presentations We do on stage It's the conversations we have in the hallways. I will say this and somebody kind of like Pulled me inside after I physically sat in a hallway. I think the workshops we're doing now Are actually far more important than the actual presentations Yeah, how kind of crazy is that and that that is a case where we're taking a number of the attendees a smaller group Having thought leaders come in do a presentation and discussion and have interaction Immediately it's off off camera. Nobody can be embarrassed. You can talk about things openly that you don't necessarily want to have recorded And have also the ability for attendees to kind of cross communicate And what you have is this mini think tank going on For an extended period of time particularly after a speaker has spoken And so it's a continuation of those ideas even further. So instead of having a 45 or 60 minute talk you're now sitting, you know at You know at least you know 120 minutes overall between, you know, two one hour sessions And then you have a tremendous amount of room in headroom to then talk in the hallways Talk at lunch talk at dinner have the evening events in which we're doing And I think that is tremendous I mean, so if you talk about a four day period in which you can pack your life into to just springboard to A whole different place of being a thought a process to develop those patterns of behavior This is the place to do it. Is the red pill a continuum or is it an on off switch? Is it a binary choice? Is it this way or that way? Where do you see the red pill going? Is there an evolution? Uh, am I correct when I say manasphere 2.0? Give me your thoughts on that. We kind of we kind of already I don't I don't get hung up on whether it's one one You know zero one two three. I think there was some discussion today at lunch at some of that But you you do see an evolutionary Approach to it evolving. I think the ideas are becoming more sound I think there's a lot more As far as a social entity has taken place I think that the discovery of other voices are becoming more interesting and and here's here's another one that we Probably never had anybody talk about we are seeing a generational change And we talk about the ability to cross generally Yes Talk and communicate and and mentor we are seeing physically the practitioners of the red pill age So it's interesting to watch those developments or or sadly the lack thereof And I think the people who are changing developing looking at their lifespans and doing this appropriate life arc Are are going to be vastly more important to pay attention to Than the 50 year old guy who still don't pick up That's creepy. I mean that's that's really yeah, I mean like yeah, that's there's something wrong there There's and what they call that is deviant, right? I mean there's a dysfunction taking place here Or men who have gone through tragedy and and not to dismiss the tragedy, but just can't get beyond that And we look at that and that's a tragedy, you know, and so when we talk about in in kind of the greek Plays that you know storylines either become tragic, you know that they descend into tragedy Or they they have all this trial and tribulation and it's tumultuous And it's the hero's journey, you know, isn't that remarkable? Yeah We take men who've been demolished And in the old way We make them part of a demolition team And we were talking before this conversation about let's Go from demolition team to architect. Let's not tear things down. Let's build things up. Yes Comment on that. Um, a lot of it is what you what do you look at? What are you focusing on? You know, I in my talk I talked just a little bit about Psycho-cypernatics and essentially it was an early version of visioning. Yeah, and where you tend to vision You tend to go, you know, so we travel in our direction our most dominant thoughts And so if you see the world in a negative light if you see things as inherently evil if you see The human nature the human being, you know, as corrupt. Yes You know, and if you see the adam and eve story, which is why I always show it And that's kind of I used it as my image that the adam and eve story in the garden of eden and the Serpent or the chair with the the the fruit of knowledge Do you see that as a story of man's corruption? Or do you see that as an essence of who you are that we were meant to be that this is a divine element The spark of life that this is the time that we we separated out That ultimately your decisions and behaviors are going to be directed towards that visioning And so if you see life as being tragic and you see things in through a tragic lens Or an ugly lens if you want it, you know, being a little bit of shorthand on that you're going to come to ugly means You know, you'll you'll you'll drive off the rails. You know, you'll you'll you'll wreck the you Will have quote the proverbial train. Yes And it will be a train wreck. You will be carrying a tremendous load over a tremendous distance over tremendous time Going at velocity And it will come to an end So what's the answer? What do you think? What is the future? of the men's community of the red pill Movement and it's been redefined many many times even just like in the past five years Where do you see it going my daughter? That's that's that's going to be it because the future belongs to those with children Yes, okay because that's that's also a nature's law. Right. Okay. You have to be present. Yes, and those that aren't Are diminishing in value every day they take air So red pill men who have absconded from responsibilities absconded from their Obligated genetic nature to overcome the adversities that they face it to have a legacy that comes children You know and obviously families and stuff like that well-raised and cultured fathers and other children They will not be represented in the future They will become compost Okay, they will become rich fertilizers of example Okay, and i'm looking right now at a daughter. Okay a child who's becoming human She's starting to think in ways that other animals don't okay. That's Incredible to see yeah and knowing that i'm taking a hand in developing fathering and gardening that you know And i'm a caretaker and that's that that's a whole different level of responsibility And so i think what's what you're going to find is that the red pill Is no longer going to be about Hypergamy or hypogamy and sexual imperatives and everything else I think it's going to go towards what no is talking about and and it's one of the reasons why I was really see him Glad to see him come in and you know, essentially in a keynote speaker position Sure and talk about it becoming about responsibility of agency and agency of responsibility and action And you show this by masculine behaviors And when you take on responsibility when you have you know, for example, we had jack jack donovan talked today Talk about strength and might and talk about the the four virtues of of masculine behavior And if you apply that to red pill knowledge, what what's the natural consequences of that? You know and and what are we supposed to do? What does nature demand us to do? And and can you say you have honor when you have scorned that? Is that a masculine behavior? Are you masking when you lack courage? A conviction? You know, or are you a low, you know low agency individual low value individual? You know, and you see a lot of this behavior online, you know, and you sit down and say, okay, if I believe this I think this let's let's put this in comparison Am I acting with strength? Okay, am I acting with conviction? And how do we how do you sit down and look yourself in the mirror? And that's probably the biggest point is that these people aren't They're really not looking themselves in the mirror doing this self-intersection and saying, okay Does there have to be a crisis or can someone come to these conclusions on their own? Oh god, you know and and that was actually kind of a side project for us fairly recently It's I think it's a bit far better. You do it before the damage ever happens Because if I can if I can do the you know quote the preventive maintenance medicine if I can Prevent you from getting hurt in the first place and that you evolve naturally you flourish you thrive Okay without any awareness of all this Well, you've been cultivated appropriately You're going to do the things that mammals and humans are naturally supposed to be able to do And you avoid this and so then you can spend all your time focusing on shit that probably does matter because Think about all the time that we had to do to reconstitute You know ourselves what we could have been doing in in its place You know I can honestly say I have lost more than a decade in my life How would I like to get those 10 years back? What what if what if I never got hurt? What if I was cultivated appropriately? What if I embrace my responsibilities the way I should have? What if I was I had friends and mentors that were able to help me along or spur me and learn by their presence, you know By by their exemplar as exemplars. Okay, and what difference that would have made in my life Can you imagine if instead of doing red pill stuff and all the work that I'm doing that I could have applied it to quote my profession How much architecture in the world is now lost? Yeah, okay, or other relationships or the children? I could have had indent the relationships and people I harmed and I could you know, you know avoid it all that That's that's that's that's those are my sins. That's my loss and I have to carry that and many times I intentionally reflect on on those things and it drives a lot of My riding at night the weekends, you know when you're you're tired to be down And so you you you turn and find that kind of drive And in many ways I can't go back and apologize to the people I hurt But what I can do is say I was moved By the situation and I've taken the agency of that ownership of it And I've sought to remediate not only my own behavior Um and to then come back and and help others not make the same errors, you know, um, and that's That's the best I can do, you know, I believe it and if I find something else we can have that conversation I would love to know well, I'll tell you the words that are that are just standing out in this conversation are agency regulation execution conviction prevention or preventive medicine and ownership Right there Those are the tools that we need. Yeah. Yeah, sir And and it's it's kind of interesting. It starts with the individual I mean, I can tell others to do something but the you know, the reality is it starts with you and and Interesting if let's go back to this. So you gotta do the work You gotta do the work, but let's let's bring pulling right back up on the tail and let's bring Warsaw front and start They did the work Yes They not only were able to maintain and have that long-term vision In front of them and maintain that and then through all this adversity do the work You know that they they sat and just plain did it and they did it interestingly enough But not by expanding but contracting in hard times and they focus on what is the most important thing Okay, what is it? Okay, and at the uprising memorial, I've got a photo of it There's all these action figures and heroic figures and there's a man and a woman and he's holding her and bringing her along Leading her, you know, and she's carrying an infant We know it happened. Okay. That's not just, you know, but it's it's artistic license. Yeah But we know that the children involved. We know that children survive We knew there were children born during the war. We know that children were born immediately following the work when things were Incredibly pessimistic. Yes, you know, and you sit down and look at that and they sat down and said what was important our families Yeah, and it's been reinforced even in the midst of the all of the darkness. Yeah back to back to back world challenges I mean in one generation one generation You know, and then I hear terms like, you know, I'm you know the american greatest generation and again You just become sheepish. Yeah, you know in the presence of this And so when we talk about the manisphere resurrecting itself in this, you know, kind of this new new way in which we're doing What a brave city to do this. Yeah I mean and and in many ways we're stealing kind of their thunder and riding their very symbolic But but you sit down and go we can utilize them as phenomenal exemplars There's no better city to have this in It really isn't, you know, and and to be really honest, I I I've I want to bring my daughter back here To show her to have her walk because there's nothing in the u.s. That is comparable Yeah, and to sit down and say this city matters this city matters Not only in history, you know because of what occurred, but I think it matters in a human art story I think there's something very very very important to happen here and then people went through things and I think as a Humanitarian ideal, I think the world needs to embrace that Hitler wanted Warsaw to be an example Let's give it to him. Yeah I like that I can't think of a better note to end on wow Let's give it to one. Yeah And that was You answered my final question, which was you know, I said what can the united states Learned from poland and you answered my second question is what can the individual Learn from poland and I think you I did it well. I don't want to end on hitler I don't want to do that. Keep then keep going. I develop that. I let's let's let's do something else. Okay There is I I Love cultures that have fantastic music. Yes that embrace food culture Comradery and everything else. Yes I would love to see an export of that to go worldwide And so one of my favorite dishes and I'm being I mean completely selfish here are progies And I I had this I joke about it that I wanted to consume my body weight and progies There's no way in hell that's happening. Yeah, but you sit down and say Let's celebrate a simple food and remembrance. You know you talk about communion and all those sort of things And I think there's something to be said about a national dish and a progie that comes from this area And so I think very distinct have it Try it, uh, you know embrace it and make it kind of a the new red pill food Yeah, and if you sit down and say instead of swallowing a red pill, let's have a progie Over wine over dinner over music family I like and and do something different and it may be kitsch, you know, it may be kind of fun But you sit down and say I think we've gotten too serious on stupid and foolish things. Yeah I like that. What a great note to end on. It's better than Hitler. It really is and in a ways I hope progies are the new red pill. You know, we'll we'll see what that is. Let's run with it, but Have a great time. I love it agency regulation execution conviction prevention ownership In poland did the work and encourages us As men as individuals to do the same. Yes. Thank you. Thank you What was your experience so far with the 21 convention? Oh, I'll stay I'll stay professional all across the board really good energy with a lot of people and uh I just like because it's very positive Positive direction this uh, George. This is this has been a first-class event. It's fantastic. You guys run a really tight ship I've been to a lot of conventions over the course of my business career And I can tell when things are well run and when things aren't and this is a very well run operation I was very impressed. It's pretty incredible to see where Anthony's brought it Especially from last year which is my first year here to see the the upgrades he's made. It's been incredible I've got my notebook and with every speaker. I've written down about two or three lines Under each of the speakers of just just the key prime stuff that I got. That's good. That's great. It's very surreal, man I'm really enjoying it. I'm happy to live in such an era Where such a thing like this is possible I have never seen a group of guys like this a group of 200 men We're focused squared away working on their values just never met a bigger group of wonderful guys It's kind of neat because I've been to a fair amount of conventions in my day But you never see one where the guy's like uh here you can just see ed latimore talking to tanner about boxing Yeah, you just sit down and then you tell your boxing experiences. Everybody's kind of pinging off each other. It's nice It has been fantastic And it's been four days of guys all on the same page working the same direction fascinating meaning some of the people Hearing their stories Yep, you got people traveling from other parts of the world to come here just to see some of the speakers. That's amazing The thing is impress me is everybody here is very serious. Yeah, they're taking it, you know, close to their heart What a great convention. Thanks, george