 Good afternoon and good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to Zero Emissions Solutions Conference at COP26. Our session today is Economic Response Towards COVID-19 Resilience. My name is Guntur Soutiono from Climate Works Australia and I will be your moderator today. And I would like to thank the SDSN for inviting us to host this session. Before I introduce our panels, let me start by quickly refreshing again what this session is about. During the pandemic and post-pandemic recovery, governments are urged to focus on green recovery. A green economy would significantly enhance the resilience of both economies and societies in the face of future economic recessions and environmental challenges. But many governments are unsure about what green economy economic recovery means for their countries. How can they demonstrate the benefit of it? And this discussion discusses why green recovery is important, including to the developing countries. What governments can do to start a green recovery? How can we align green recovery with countries climate ambition? And most importantly, how can we rethink the governance of public investment and steer it towards implementing green investment policies? Joining us today are our wonderful panels. We have Olga Miqueva joining from London and Berli Martawardaya joining from Jakarta, Indonesia. Our first panel, Phoebe Kunduri, regretfully sends her apologies for not joining with us today due to conflicting schedule with her COP agenda. However, she has shared her recorded presentation. And with that, let me quickly perhaps read her bio. So Phoebe Kunduri is a world renowned environmental economics professor and global leader in sustainable development. She is listed in the most cited women economists in the world with 15 published books and more than 450 published peer reviewed scientific papers. Books chapters and reports. She is elected member of the World Academy of Art and Science. She holds a PhD from the University of Cambridge and has been affiliated as researcher and lecturer with Cambridge University College London, London School of Economics, University of Reading. And since 2006, she is a professor at the Athens University of Economics and Business. I think we are ready. So Phoebe is going to be our first panel and I will introduce our other panels shortly before they turn to speak. And again, I'd like to say welcome everyone participants and thank you to the panels today. And I think we are ready to listen to Phoebe speech or Phoebe speech is about what and why green economy recovery is important to create resilience. What is the risk of not doing it how the European Union address the green economy recovery, what policies, etc. Okay, so I think we are ready. Let's listen to her. Hello everybody my name is Phoebe Kunduri I'm a professor in economics at the Athens University of Economics and Business and co chair of you and sustainable development solutions network Europe. We are at a point in time that we are facing many crisis, the COVID-19 pandemic, the huge economic recession that derived from climate change crisis biodiversity collapse. And finally, we have policies that are trying to respond to this crisis UN agenda 2030 with the 17 SDGs and 169 target within this SDGs, the parties agreement, reflecting SDG 1313 trying to keep global temperature well below two degrees and if possible 1.5 degree increased compared to pre industrial levels. 2019 we also have the European Green Deal, the new growth strategy of Europe climate neutrality by 2050 protecting a human life animals and plants from pollution and clean tech leadership for European companies doing this transition without leaving anyone behind. The European Green Deal is supported by one trillion and a half of it from the EU budget and the other half to be leveraged by public private partnerships. Unfortunately, in 2020 we have the COVID-19 pandemic and we have the short term responses together with the long term response from the European Commission, the EU next generation instrument which is 750 billion. In addition to the multi annual financial framework of Europe, trying to finance a green and digital recovery so the pathway for recovery is green and digital the growth strategy of Europe remains green and digital even after the huge nonlinearity of the pandemic to be financed from the EU next generation instrument and investment has to be at minimum 37% climate related and 20% digitally related. And of course 2021 is a year with many laws being drafted implemented and transposed into national laws from European to national laws the climate law the first time that the commitment to reduction of CO2 emissions becomes a law and late 2020 the leaders of European member states agrees to an increase ambition with regards to greenhouse gas emission reductions by 55% until 2030 and climate neutrality by 2050. We also have the new taxonomy identifying exactly which investments can be considered green climate, mitigation, adaptation, sustainable use and protection of water and marine resources, circular economy, pollution, prevention, biodiversity and at the same time we have the proposal for a corporate sustainability reporting directive that requires auditing introduces detailed reporting requirements and needs a digital attacking of the reported information. Together with this we'd have the feet for 55 package a major package with 13 legislative proposals trying to create the regulatory and legal framework for the implementation of the European Green Deal, the revision of the ETS climate action social facility revision of the offshore in regulation revision of the land use regulation proposal for a carbon border adjustment mechanism revision of renewable energy directive energy efficiency directive energy taxation directive the EU forest strategy, the revision of the directive on deployment of alternative fuels and infrastructure, and of course revision of the regulations that have to do with mobility cars, vans aviation marine time space. It is great that we have this huge policy momentum, although policy documents and laws exist mainly in Europe, but there is a lot of discussion on the targets across the world, Canada, US, Latin America, Africa, Asia and importantly China committing to climate neutrality by 2016 and of course we need to fast very fast because we know that the latest assessment of the IPCC identifies that we need to act fast because we are already very close to exceeding the 1.5 degrees Celsius and targets as a maximum of increase in average global temperature. So what do we need to do we have all these policies how are we going to really implement these policies how are we going to really implement the sustainability transition. So I'm going to direct the cluster for sustainability, trying to transform the research and innovation into sustainability action and puts together the research and innovation efforts of the Athens University of Economics and Business where my professor sits at the Athena Research and Innovation Information Technology Center, the EIT Climate Kick, which is the biggest public private partnership for accelerating climate neutral innovations in Europe and is partly financed by the European Institute of Innovation and Technology, and of course, the major strengths of the UN Sustainable Development Solutions Network, the biggest network in the world that tries to communicate the technologies and innovations and research results that are producing universities and research institutions to all other stakeholders that need to implement the sustainability transition, the financial institutions, the companies, the NGOs, the civil society, and importantly the policymakers and the politicians. I'm honored to co-chair as the European SDS in Greece and work on research and innovation projects, innovation acceleration, deep demonstration projects, education, training and policy interface that allow us to understand where we are and where we want to go. And SDS in Europe publishes every year the Sustainable Development Report that assesses the progress of each and every member state country and starting to include neighboring countries as well with regards to the implementation of the 17 SDGs. Together with this report, every year we produce a report on the transformations needed for the joint implementation of the SDGs and the European Green Deal. And this report basically tries to connect the four major policy initiatives, the SDGs, the European Green Deal, the European semester process and the EU next generation to support policy makers with actionable strategies that can guide the national economic recovery in European member states in line with Europe's overreaching sustainability agenda. And of course we know that beyond the fiscal stimulus that the EU next generation is bringing and is expected to boost aggregate demand, this crisis calls for transformative public investments that will shape sustainable fair green digital transition and leverage private sector investments. We showcase with machine learning methods that the European Green Deal and the SDGs are very closely related and we also make a transposition exercise that tries to find the connection between the level of the achievement of the SDGs and the recommendations of the European semester process. This is the page for Greece. We have a page for each and every European member state and we find for Greece that there is 80% alignment between the difficulties with regards to implementing the SDGs and the recommendations of the EU semester process with regards to making, putting more effort in achieving relevant objectives. And on average we have 72% alignment between the European Green Deal implementation and recommendations and the SDGs. And because we have this alignment, it is very helpful and it identifies the way forward. It is good that we have different policies but these policies are aligned and based on this alignment we need to sketch detailed technological and investment pathways for the actual implementation of the policies. The technologies are renewable energy, circular economy, nature-based solutions and other pension projects and what we are doing this report is that the European Green Deal and the SDGs implementation should be conceived on a systems for inter-disciplinary approach that is definitely science-driven and needs to simultaneously address multiple objectives and promote the right mixture of policy instruments and technological solutions that can be used across the various sectors of the economy. The report provides explicit recommendations for the power sector, for the land use sector, for the mobility sector and it also provides recommendations with regards to the finance pathways that need to support the technologies, the implementation of the technologies. And basically what we say is that countries need to reconceptualize their financial stability and also their financial missions both at the macro level in terms of the European Investment Fund and the European Investment Fund missions at the at the meso level in terms of the national public investment organizations that need to provide sources of long-term patient finance and at the micro level companies need to understand that those that switch towards sustainable practice as soon as will be the most competitive, most innovative and most successful over time. And of course it is important not only to schedule the financial technological and policy pathways, but also to care about those that are vulnerable and might face a regressive effects due to climate policies. The European Green Deal will create approximately one million jobs, most of which are highly skilled, so we need to invest in a major wave of reskilling and upskilling in order to keep the cohesion of the society and in order to have an inclusive growth. And we also showcase in our reports that those that are negatively affected from climate policies can be mitigated for this negative effect through fiscal policies through a package of fiscal policies. And we showcase this in a detailed microeconomic modeling exercise where we show that redistributing climate policy revenues through ransom taxes, implementing targeted efficiency measures, long-term job training programs and funding of subsidies for low carbon technologies via general taxation can really achieve the implementation of climate policies but also ensure more equality increased GDP and employment in all regions of Europe. I would like to close here and say that the science has spoken, climate crisis, biodiversity collapse is here, we have to face it and we have to face it. Because we have the technology what we need now to achieve during the COP and during the other UN conferences before the end of the year is to agree on the pathways, the technological, the financial and the policy pathways that will get each and every country where it has to be by 2030 and 2050. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Phoebe. Participants don't hesitate to pose any questions during the session through the using the Q&A function in your Zoom app in your screen. We'll address them after the all panels are complete their their speech. Now, let's move on to our second panel, Olga Mikheva. She holds a PhD in public administration and technology governance from Taltek Estonia and is currently a Mary Curry research fellow at the University College London II. Her research work is focused on how governments can implement strategic investments in innovation and development, what policies and agencies are required. She has a strong interest in policy oriented research and has recently co-authored a number of IIPP policy reports, including on the European Investment Bank's advisory support to the circular economy and the Norway's green industrial strategy. Now, Olga's speech today is about the need to rethink governance of public investments, how to strategically design and implement green investment policies. Now, Olga, I'm not going to spoil the whole story. I'm sure you have a great present, great speech today. And with that time is yours. Thank you very much, Gunter. Good morning, everyone. And thank you for inviting me for having me here today. I did be perhaps building to some extent of what Phoebe's already touched in her talk about various policy ambitious targets, a lot of strategies that are already were announced and currently being designed in the EU and across the world. I would like to bring in the question of financial governance to today's discussion. The moment after governments was spending during one and a half years almost to support economies firms households. There are serious debates and going currently about post COVID economic governance, and particularly public finance public spending public investments. These are also marked by very visible political events. There are national elections going on. There are changes in political collisions. But I have to say that also these debates over post COVID economic governance are quite sobering. What I mean by this is, for example, in the European Union, there is ongoing conversation about revising the fiscal rules that are at the core of how member states are monitored and what type of public investments within which they can think of public spending. So the 3% of GDP in regards to budget deficit 60% these are major numbers that are quite important when making a national investment or spending decisions. In developing countries the question of obviously public finances no less acute high public debt is typically thought as very important because it higher public debt would decrease investors confidence. It would amplify the risks of capital outflight outflows for incapable leave this economies in a very short notice and reduce economic activity even further. This type of economic reasoning leads to concrete political choices. Namely, there are a lot of there is a lot of advocacy already coming and raising rising in favor of fiscal consolidation across the board across political spectrum across the world which means basically reducing public deficits and spending and controlling the levels of public debt. This conversation not from last year, not from next year but from 2023 and this this type of conversations are happening in developed but also in lower income economies. For example, even given the recovery facility that we mentioned in the you very ambitious spending but this is still a one time measure. What about economic financial governance beyond the seven year European budgets. At the Institute of innovation public purpose where I work as a researcher we think that these economic thinking poses serious obstacle to the opportunity we all have to reconsider economic and financial governance. Because to implement the green transition. To design policies for major structural change. We need a different type of governance mechanisms, a different type of policy interventions and by national by financial governance I mean here not only green mandates for central banks. Not just green investment taxonomies, which in their own right, they can indeed help alter or change behavior of private financial agents, but only to some extent. What I mean here by financial governance is a broader take on strategic public investments the alignment of key public finance agencies central banks, finance ministries, financial supervisor authorities, state investment banks, development finance institutions. The development of this key public financial agencies to commit long term, therefore beyond, or despite political cycles, and directly intervene and create financial markets to shift financial behavior. There's a step beyond greening existing financial instruments or investment or business models. So in other words, not to spend the next nine years and making low carbon sectors more attractive for private finance. Even the European investment bank acknowledges openly explicitly that we can leave the discovery of low carbon sectors to the private sector alone but it will take way more time. But this therefore the argument I'm trying to make, and also in the work we're doing currently with colleagues at IPP is to we need to commit also public finance to green sectors. And there are various direct and indirect instruments to do that I would like to make three points related to this. First, is that such proposition. It's not really novels. It's nothing new and it derives. It's, it's more like a conclusion from the work we have been doing with colleagues at IPP while looking in a retrospect and at the financial governance of the previous major and quite dramatic structural change namely industrialization that occurred throughout the 20th century in most of the countries. The type of structural change was characterized by more direct role of public investments, both in developing and also in high income countries. And by structural change here I mean a change in economic activities that dominate national regional economies it was unthinkable that building new economic sectors, investing in new technologies, making massive infrastructure available. In the 20th century, it was unthinkable that it was all would be left to the private businesses. Second structural change necessarily means long term horizon for developing countries, many of which have by now been experiencing premature or negative deindustrialization there or they are stuck in the middle income traps. This transition can bring in the question of long term economic strategies, for example, promoting green sectors for exports, linking green transition with the possibility to, to produce higher value added experts can be a possibility. Third, there are other emerging analytical frameworks that can help in rethinking public and private investments. We can align finance with the goals or needs of productive economy. And for example, circular economy is one of such frameworks. Based on our work with the European Investment Bank and the Innovation Finance Advisory Services we published a report last year. It seems to observe that circular business models supply chains various challenges of how to define how to understand circularity they actually force financial sectors, particularly banks to relearn what productive firms do to make banks understand the real economy. To conclude, to build and scale up green economic sectors while phasing out fossil based activities, we need big and serious investments obviously. And but they will not happen without more strategic more direct take on public financial governance. And economically speaking, this means creating new financial technology markets and using policies to shift financial flows into carbon sectors, not just to wait, and not just to wait and make for the private sector to come in and make green financial instruments or make low carbon sectors more attractive. It seems like credit policies were used throughout the world to support industrial growth earlier we need, as I keep saying again, we need also green public investments. Politically speaking, even if we continue being obsessed with public deficits, there are also various self balance sheet mechanisms to implement public investments. Finally, what implications for developing countries. Despite being oftentimes dependent on foreign aid and foreign investments, but also on on the types of economic policies promoted by international donors and international agencies. There are still possibilities to carve out policy space for domestic green industrial strategies and green investment strategies. China is a good example using green transition as an industrial policy tool but obviously this is not to say that we need to replicate China's mode of governance. It's not possible, and it might not be desirable. But despite uneven global order, whereby donor countries exercise a lot of power over economic decisions into in emerging and low income countries, developing countries can take a broader take on green transition. To integrate over the question of justice of the just transition to rethink the way their economies and industries are integrated into international economy to design policies fit for local needs to put climate to to broader policies of financial stability to use policies for reducing policy imports from international development agencies. It's a very difficult task though so no illusions about that, given imbalances of power I mentioned, but, and, but I think it's useful to also understand the short run costs of these types of policy decisions are very high overall, not just for developing countries but for developed as well. And for all societies but but there is, I'm afraid there is really no other way. Thank you very much. Thank you very much Olga. I think we, it's great it's interesting and might have a follow up question but I will post it a bit later after after we finished with with barely speech. Our third panel is barely Marta Wardaya. He currently serves as a research as the research director of the Institute for development of economics and finance or in depth in Indonesia. He's also a lecturer at the Department of Economics and at planning and public policy graduate program University of Indonesia. His research covers topics such as development economics, public sector finance environmental economics and behavior economics. Now, barely coming, you know, as comes from from developing country. His, his speech is about why green economic recovery is important for developing countries recovery. What, what opportunity presented in Indonesia, what Indonesia has been so far or should be doing in a near future challenges, etc. So it's a bit broad topic, but we are happy to have him to have him here with us. And barely time is yours. Yeah, thank you for, for inviting me. It's a pleasure to be here and sharing the panel with very distinguished speaker more than Phoebe. Okay. Yeah, I mean, yeah, spend my grade school in in the land and in Italy so have a lot of and still keep in touch with the, with the economics from from European especially yeah but I'm also happy that there are a lot of participants from developing a country especially in Asia in Africa. So let me begin with quoting about Shakespeare. For developing country, most of the, the biggest question is to be sustainable or not. Yeah, yeah, because it's still seen to be to be costly, especially for, for energy, coal and diesel and your fossil base is still seen to be the cheapest, especially with country with significant deposit. So in the, yeah, in the three sphere of social environment and economic environment I'll still often put on the lower range of priority. First economic, yeah, as long as does not create social unrest, yeah, and then environment. Yeah, so, yeah, the quotation. Yeah, so, I think, yeah, the cradle of many developing countries is give me sustainability is good, good plan is good reputation. Yeah, but not yet. Not yet. Yeah, so that's another. Yeah, I think you familiar with the quotation. So, even, even then, yeah, I think some of the country already seen the, or have a long term enough perspective here that they need to start somewhere, or because it will also affect their country. So, actually, country in the topical area, country with archipelagic state, country with a lot of potential for natural disaster. Yeah, so we see, yeah, like, Maldives, for instance, Maldives has been getting some headline, well, committed or declaring they are in danger country, even held a cabinet meeting underwater because that there will be if the change is not coming enough. So, then, going back to Tunisia. So in 2009 and Asia is one of the few country that make a commitment commitment explicit commitment in 2009 in peace but meeting that we will discuss all we will try to decrease and reduce our, our mission. By 26% by my internal effort and by 45% with international support. Yeah, so this has been getting some headline and has been followed through with domestic effort and regulation. Yeah, yeah, so, yeah, but when the, the, the second term of the president, do you know that came out with the commitment ended, let's say the commitment has been reduced. This is not as strong as before. Yeah, and the latest data 2009 here put Indonesia in the top 15. Yeah, I mean, yeah, not as large as the larger one. Yeah, but yeah, in part with Saudi with Korea and with Canada. And looking at the rate of development is some emission projection is not sustainable if we continue or we slag down then Indonesia we could could go to or even higher than 3%. Yeah, well, we actually as a logic, we have, if, if just five meter of sea, sea level rise, yeah, that many of an edition 17,000 island will be disappeared forever from the face of the earth. So, looking at the data. So the economics, especially the environmentalist in the last year, especially in the last seven years has been quite worried looking at the end the trend where the emission from energy from transport and forest and land use has been dominating. Yeah, there has been still follow time for all change from forest here to palm oil, especially and to mining. Yeah, so with only very recently last year that Indonesia change the regulatory. Well, before it was the, the authority of the local government of the city and agency to give up license on forest use. Yeah, now it has been taking back to the, to the national level so so hopefully you will see less less change of the land use especially topical forest that has been that we have lost quite so much. Then, yeah, okay, that's this. Yeah, there are a lot of hope, yeah, a lot of hope, a lot of angst in Indonesia, green, green community, green activists, green economists, yeah, that we will see the COVID with open new door and change Indonesia behavior. We are looking that the sublime stimulus in 2008 2009 is actually quite green. China lead the way in terms of the number but in terms of the proportion China, you and Korea so the stimulus has been quite green in 2008 and nine. Yeah, but quite recent analysis comparing, comparing several countries show that it is India that has been managed among developing country has been quite successful in inserting green element into the COVID stimulus. In Indonesia, yeah, my country has, yeah, it on the lower level of the level, yeah, the level of the level, yeah, even though yeah, there are some other country that rank even lower. Why is that, yeah, I've been in contact with several high official we have meeting we are invited, yeah, yeah, publicly. So, because the COVID is not seen as, as long term is seen as a short term problem, yeah, that once we take away the COVID then we will then the, yeah, it will goes back to the old normal. So that's why a lot of the stimulus are going toward demand creation, yeah. Social assistant, social assistant to the needy to the poor wage supplement. And of course the health. So we, yeah, the community, the green community has been in, yeah, my team has been producing a report here quite recently, yeah, how we can use this, this, this, this crisis into potential for time forming into form extractive base here to sustainable base. One of the most, let's say that we fight the most is the subsidy passive subsidy for, for biofuel. Yeah, so, because, yeah, the one want to reduce the import, yeah, I mean they have less, less foreign currency. So they want to replace or reduce fuel import with biofuel, yeah, but yeah, I mean it's still burning, it's still burning, it's still producing emission. Yeah, yeah, so let me close with the plot twist. So, in the last two, three months, yeah, the green systemic epistemic community in Indonesia has been very surprised, yeah, so we call it the COP and G20 effect. So Indonesia is, yeah, is taking the chair of the G20. Just in the last couple of months, yeah, the policy that we have been fighting for, yeah, are suddenly enacted, yeah, yeah, so suddenly the very powerful Minister of Resource announced that there will be no more coal power plant, yeah, which we are the developmentalist presidency of Jogori has been building 20 gigabytes of 20 megabit 20 gigawatt of new power plant, which about, yeah, about half are coal power so we have been protesting that. But yeah, then, very suddenly, yeah, there's a change of heart, yeah, so yeah, I'm actually writing a paper on this, and the state electricity company has announced the phasing out, yeah, phasing out. And just one or two weeks ago, there's a new carbon tax, carbon tax will be enacted to coal power plant, yeah, so make the coal power plant more, more plysi, yeah, so making the energy more, more effective, yeah, and carbon market are currently under discussion. So, so it's a, yeah, so this should be an analysis of saving phase, yeah, I mean, for the Japanese concept of power because Indonesia is untested with big, big position, we are very in the spotlight so suddenly the style are aligned, yeah, so the government change into deliver what we have been asking, even though this is the last point that we are still sticking at 2060 for net zero, yeah, so that's one point that we are still still fighting for, yeah, to move the target to 2050 or even 2045. Yeah, so what I think in here, yeah, in the lesson in the last 30 years second is to know the problem is, yeah, to look for, for opportunity and timing, and keep pushing, keep pushing until the policymakers are facing the situation where they must bring a concrete progress here to the global community in this case, yeah, the COP energy 20. So, yeah, that's what all of you fight outside, yeah, keep fighting, yeah, things can change. Okay, that's it for me, thank you. Thank you, thank you, barely for that very delightful presentation. So follow up question for, for Olga and thank you so much for that great and inspiring talking points earlier, and especially I'd like to highlight this, you know, the role of domestic banks in developing countries, and many developing development countries, you know, and most often state owned banks in developing countries are already thinking about implementing green investment policies. But they're facing a number of, of, of issues and, you know, from, from most importantly, you know, capacity issues, that's one example. So they have this, you know, question or fake trying to figure out how, how to do it what to what to prioritize what is the first step that we need to do to get there. And so, you know, in your view, what can you suggest for these, you know, actors to start getting there. Thank you. Yeah, very useful question. I, let me go back to previous challenge, previous challenges of industrial transformation, they were no less uncertain for developing countries how to industrialize, they were no less complex than today. The political economy of that was also no less complex. It was different, but it was no less complex for domestic financial sector for financial system that for example in Southeast Asia, it was also dominated by a lot of foreign banking groups, just for historical reasons. We can draw some parallels with today, globalized financial capital right. So a domestic financial sector to learn about the needs, the local needs of NASA industry, let's say that was when we talk about post World War two. It was similar, similarly challenging. In this country, some more successfully than others designed and implemented how to nurture your financial institutions in such a way that they will actually act as vehicles to channel finance, private but also let's say public if you are a developing finance institutions. I did my fieldwork in Malaysia they have very interesting setup of national development banks. In Indonesia, a lot of other countries in Southeast Asia and yet we have some successful stories and some not so successful cases when developing finance institutions ended up having acting more like a manager of self loan schemes without necessarily doing strategic investments. So, there ever right I don't have a clear cut answer for you, I'm afraid, going through but the point here is that this, that's why there is a need for, for domestic policy space to align your financial targets with the green markets. So it's not about finance. It's not about public subsidies or incentives to attract more foreign capital to supposedly come into your emerging low carbon industries it will not happen that way, you have to set up your low carbon industry strategy first. What would it be, how, what does it corresponds to your longer term vision, where do you want to go as a national economy. I mean, these are very important questions and I obviously am very, very well aware of imbalances in how economic ideas and policy advocacy is also very much forced on a lot of developing and low income countries, you know, guided by this mainstream So, so I mean it's a kind of broader question right it's not just about banks, it could be domestically owned banks in developing countries but they will be still not willing to go and obviously why would I mean everything is still guided by short term Yeah, so I have another follow up on that so you mentioned about the, you know, the importance to align with the green target right so it's not just, you know, we expect the banks or financial decision just to change their need to be aligned with the long term climate or environmental target and in this case I want to bring that to the net zero, for example, how would you see and, you know, given the, you know, the experience for example with the developed country or in other countries. How these financial institutions can can actually link with how or how net zero is actually play a role in this in this sense. Well if not zero is that kind of umbrella goal but then you go kind of you descend from it and you think what does net zero mean for Indonesia. I mean, what are the, what are the qualitative but also quantifiable perhaps targets that that you can, you can use in your political commitments medium term long term. And, of course, we also with my colleagues, we don't deny the, the importance to give that first move that this technocratic tools like axonomies. Investment frameworks can give that that's great but it's just it's not enough it's it's a one policy tool. We should think in terms of, maybe it's just me trying to say that well maybe for many countries, they should think about green industrial policy. It will not be, it will not be the same industrial policy they were thinking in the 50s or 60s obviously it's different but, but it's still about thinking of your domestic. What is net zero for you I mean you have to look at your economic structures. The same happens with the circular economy. It's a very well developed conceptual framework, and I feel that it sometimes actually poses more dangers, because you import conceptual framework without really analyzing like what it what are those circular supply chains that I needed for my economy domestically. What happens also in Europe is well I mean, we can think about ease we can think about North and South divide there are similar dependencies, lack of domestic deliberations to align policy goals that I imported let's say from commissions or from other countries that were that are more ahead with developing circular strategies so importing them without really thinking okay what is my economic structures what am I dominated sectors where I want to bring them in five years and 10 years 15 how circular can help me doing that. Of course it requires a lot of different types of capacities among let's say. Ministries and agencies that structure design those policies, I mean it's really not very. It's not limited to problems of developing countries it's it's so to answer your question. And zero is is great as overall but still there is how to go there right, I mean, these are really people sitting there every day thinking okay how shall we strategize. Thanks Olga I think that's that's actually a great segue to my next question to to barely. So, you know when it comes to, you know what it, what does it mean that zero for for in for developing country for for Indonesia, and then with with, you know, we're talking about transitioning the economy as an Indonesia as you know many other developing countries also highlights the affordability of the transition, and also considering that Indonesia like other developing countries there are huge discrepancy disparity economic disparity between between regions. So there's this kind of, you know, affordability as well as avoiding negative impact in regions inside the inside the country. Now, my question to barely is, how can Indonesia and other developing countries address this, you know, affordability, or, you know, transition affordably. Yeah, just before the pandemic. Is Asia. Is Asia Pacific. In the meeting in Bangkok where they invite policy maker and academics from all over Asia Pacific. So we have a chance to discuss the progress and comparing notes. I think the most common thread is, you need to be able to convince the policy maker, the government that in the end is economic. So if you do the green transformation, yes, it's not just cost today. Because they have to sell it to you have to finance it you have to find money for it. They have to sell to the parliament they have to convince the industry, especially the industry that will be at the cost, but they have to convince that in the end, it will bring economic return, it will make it will glove their name into eternity. And put it nicely so they will be remembered well because they take the breath straight here so it's a big combination of economic and string and as psychology say I said you have to convince them on, and there is a grass root of people that demand it. Because, for instance, it's always, at least for now, it's still cheaper to use coal for the power plant. So it's still more expensive to use the renewable. So you have to convince them with people support with scientific and empirical data that the price is declining and you have to give them money. So there's the, the, the money that the financing that can be channeled by from the national agency from, from green bonds, from, it's helped a lot. It helped convince the policymaker to make the change. And lastly, as I put on my last slide is, is the perception, put expectation on them, put expectation. Yeah, so that if they're not taking the step, they are left behind, they are failing the global public expectation. So, like I said, it requires a lot of effort to make them change the calculation. Yeah, because after all, the policymaker, the minister, prime minister, president are have a need to have the political sense. So if the, the both are aligned, yeah, the economic calculation is still doable is still beneficial to the country in, in quite near future, not too far distant, and the political and public support is with them and many will take the step. Yeah, so it's a, it's a good cup with a bad cup strategy that each of the each of us in each country we know the situation the actual better but you have to make sure that all of the steps, all of the frontline are being taken care of. So, so they will not take the short-sighted cheaper first, cheaper first, cheaper now first. Yeah, so we, we, we make them, you are a legend in the future, if you take the step, you know, I think, yeah, that's what's at least partially behind the calculation of Indonesia president in 2009, that's what we do, you know, and also partially in the back of the mind of the current president, but the change have make a big, big uterine in policy into more green and sustainable. And I think there's one question which I would like to reframe, because you also mentioned about, you know, political, you know, political process and, and is that, is that how you would, you know, you would share with two other developing countries to win the political support over such a commitment like net zero, all of these calculations all of these, you know, short-sighted, avoiding the short-sightedness of, of, you know, planning, etc. But, you know, you know, if, if in one minute, what can you share to the other colleagues in developing countries on how to, to, to secure that domestic political support for such a great ambition. To short-word, I think Greta and Tesla, yeah, yeah, Greta is the sound of the youth, yeah, make them heard, make them, give them platform, yeah, to, to voice out their demand or their concern, yeah, so they are ready to willing to pay more and put effort, yeah, for, for the future, because it's their future. The second is Tesla, so being green is cool, is, we're being green is bring investment, yeah, so Indonesia has been toying has been persuading has been trying to invite Tesla to invite Indonesia to invest in Asia for so many years is, so it's the, but it's their demand that Indonesia switch into more green, yeah, reduce the, yeah, the coal power, reduce the emission and pollution that partly that I think play, play the part that Indonesia really recent change of strategy, so you need to make it both way, you need to have the carrot, the stick and sometimes the pitchfork as well, okay. Thank you so much. Obviously, situations will be different, but that's that's actually what works in Indonesia, so thank you very much for that insights and for the participants. Yes, this session is recorded, I've been told by the, the organizer by the STSN that this session is recorded and will be made available on the web so you can revisit and perhaps download if needed. With that, we are on time, so I'd like to thank once more to Olga and Babeli for your wonderful insights. Also, virtually thank to Phoebe for her presentation as well. And thank you very much for your participation audience from all over the world, I've seen many from coming from joining from Africa. And I hope I can see you again and talk to you again. Good afternoon and good morning. Thank you very much, Olga. Thank you very much, Babeli. Thank you very much.