 Good afternoon, everyone. My name is Lydia Johnson, and I am the program manager of Alice in Tap. Today we are talking about developing self help websites and so I've invited Susan from Ohio legal help and also Kate from Indiana legal help and we're going to hear more about their websites and what it took to get those launched, how they're funded and things of that nature. This is recorded and I will put it up on Alice in Tap, probably by tomorrow, so that it can be shared and we can, you know, spread this knowledge among the community. And that's basically all I have to say. Okay, I'm going to pick Kate to go first. Okay, well thank you. Good afternoon everyone. My name is Kate Guerrero and I'm the director of Indiana legal help here in Indiana. And I'm going to share my screen, I think. Yep. Okay, good. And I thank you first of all for the opportunity to share today with you and everyone for your time and attention. As I give you kind of a short overview of Indiana legal help and what we are. So Indiana legal help. Our website org is our website and we are a program of the Indiana bar foundation. We're really the website for Indiana's coalition for court access which is our access to justice commission. So all of our website is pretty simple at, you know, at its base we try to connect people to our legal assistance organization and organizations and partners around the state. And then we also try to provide a pretty substantial library of self help forms and other information for folks who either can't secure civil legal assistance, or who do secure civil legal assistance and we're seeing a growing But need some sort of forms or support before they go to meet with an attorney or the attorney often sends them to the website to get some information so it's been great to see some partnership there. So we launched in the fall of 2018 and when we launched we were pretty bare bones. We started with maybe 15 ish self help form packets that I had vetted through our coalition for court access so we took them off the Indiana Supreme Court's website and put them on to this new Indiana legal health org after vetting and reviewing them, and we put them in fillable format only. Since then we're up to probably 50 self help court form packets and a lot of other information. So we, I wanted to kind of go over how we built the website I think first and what we're considering doing next so we, the website is built in WordPress, which you all probably know is just sort of an off the shelf product. It's super builder friendly. It's based on themes and pre packaged templates like so many other website builders that we have a theme that we can choose from or that we use and we can choose from different templates within the theme. It's really easy to add pages and build content. If we do need a developer WordPress is really easy to find someone who's well versed as a developer in that area. So in the box it's a little clunky but you can improve functionality using plugins just little pieces of code that we kind of stick on the back end that allow the website to do some fancier things. There are some drawbacks to it and again like this is a pretty basic website it's not very secure which we are have concerns about because WordPress is so common if someone wants to find a weakness in a WordPress site they're finding weakness and a whole lot of websites. So that's an issue. We do have to keep it updated really regularly because of those security issues and because we have plugins that are from different builders working in the background. Another drawback that we see as plugins don't stay functional forever people develop these and then they die so if that's what we're relying on it goes away we have a pretty big issue there. And other features can be pretty limited and not as dynamic or intuitive is what we'd like to see but I will say the upshot of this is it's relatively inexpensive and you can do a lot of the work yourself. So, that's where we started where we're going right now is considering a custom build of a website to address all those issues I just talked about, particularly functionality and security. So, we have a wish list that we want to make sure that website can do and it you just can't do it in a basic WordPress site, the way it is now with a lot of custom code built into a basic WordPress we get more security, although we typically would still see some plugins on the back end requires less frequent updates. Of course the downside is we have to have a custom developer to build and increase costs so that's sort of where we started and where we're going. Because it's website 1.0 I started thinking about things I wish I would have known five years ago or even like three years ago what do I think about a lot when I look at a website analytics. We use primarily Google analytics running on the back end to collect a lot of data and we want to know where the website is accessed from what information folks are looking for we get a lot of direction just by looking at where what pages they're going to and what they're on, how long they stay on the website and how customers find us so we can pull all that from Google analytics you may likely already know that but we like to see how people are finding us. And the other thing that I'm continually trying to learn about is search engine optimization so SEO. And again, you likely know this but a couple years ago I didn't so SEO is just different techniques that you can use to help a website rank higher when someone does a Google search. We have we hired a marketing company to dive into how people are finding us to help inform how we can improve our SEO it was not free but it was relatively inexpensive to get an idea of what people are searching for when they find us. And I will say the number one thing they found that improved our SEO was that we're linked to from so many different trusted partners. So when we took the self help forms after our Supreme Court's website and put it on Indiana legal help, they started linking directly to us and so that was how we ended up with 200,000 visitors our first year we couldn't have done that without that sort of link. And the most which is a plug in on the back end of WordPress and that's pretty widely used to help with SEO. And then we are in the middle of doing some like content tags and schema and the back end of WordPress. If you think of like, when someone does a Google search, like if they're looking for, you know, Indiana divorce forms, then their little crawlers are going out looking for Indiana divorce forms, and the more content tags and the better schema you have worked on the website is raising multiple hands to say Indiana divorce forms over here is kind of how I think of it so we're working on that and certainly with the rebuild is something that will have front and center. What do we have on the website. Again, we have. We try to connect people to low and no cost legal help in their area. So this is our homepage. And the most custom thing we have is this interactive map which is a little clunky so that's something we would be looking to update but a person can click on there is a code or other county and find that our partner organizations and those areas. And then the only other thing I really wanted to dive into on that is forms and information so by far the most like widely clicked on area of the website. Our is forms and information and we have like I said 50 some packets of self help forms, but I quickly kind of wanted to show you what we do have there. So all of our forms are fillable. So that's not a new thing. And also, like this is a little cartoon video we made in with a product called pow tunes, and relatively inexpensive and we created this little, this little character to we didn't create it we grabbed it from how tunes to when we first launched our guided interviews to try and help people understand that a guided interview form is the same as your fillable form, and you can use more than one tool so that was a relatively inexpensive website ad, we have screencasts. Then again, this we made with the support of the legal services Corporation and Indiana legal services, which is our statewide LSE grantee here in Indiana. It's relatively inexpensive but grant funded to help explain some sort of complicated areas of the law so those are up on the website. Guided interviews again low code way to help folks fill out forms that they might need to file in court. So, so we have quite a bit of information up there but we try to use different tools and see what works and what doesn't work and we do bold data from from those as Um, so going back to, you know, website 1.0 what would we add or improve if we were going to do this differently, we would build, we would improve access for sure. So that's something that's front and center right now, as we look at a website rebuild any multi language content we could add we would, including a back end Arab secondary site in primarily Spanish just focusing on plain language making sure that we test everything with a screen reader to make sure that it's accessible. We would add a locked portal for our partners and volunteers we find that a lot of times we want to communicate, you know, CLE information or we want to share like our master spreadsheet of where clinics are around the state. And it's not that we, it can't be public facing it doesn't have to be super secure but it's something that we would want our partners to see before we kind of publicize. So we would want a locked end of the website and update and improved, or we don't have one so a clinic calendar that's more dynamic than our plugins can do. A dynamic match to partner organizations based on count years of code that's not quite as clunky as our map, and then some updated and intuitive navigation. So I think I would just leave you with if I'm again thinking of what I wish I would have known as we started building out this website and thinking about where we're going next is just make sure you track content and keep it updated, keep it updated, keep it updated. Make mistakes. No, like the world doesn't end. And it's good there's so many tools out there to to try and experiment with. I did a lot of good feedback on that. Say yes to opportunities and listen to partners and colleagues we have this is the most supportive community I've ever been a part of I think and so just with somebody invites you to their cohort and say yes, because you'll learn in a accessibility multi language plain language over and over again just to continue to keep that front and center make sure you're accessible to all because really are in some cases the gateway to the court system here. Again embrace search engine optimization and analytics. Let that data drive where you're going. And then I would just also say you can do tech tech. This is mysterious maybe to us in the legal world as the legal world is to folks that are outside of the legal world so we're trying to all do the same things use tech to make it easier and and I just think it's, it's we're in a unique, we have a unique opportunity to do that. So, I think that is all I have for this afternoon and thank you for your time. Thanks so much Kate that was really, it was really good really insightful. So now we'll hear from Susan. Okay, see if I can do this. Okay. Okay, I'm going to provide, and everyone can hear me and I have a little video so I'm going to share the sound from that video hopefully you folks will hear. So, so high legal help we launched in late 2019 and I always say, nothing like doing a launch right in the middle of a pandemic essentially because we launched and then we went into the pandemic in 2020. But we I'm going to go through kind of a little bit of our history. I'm sure in some ways it's similar to what other states have experienced. I don't give a little bit of the technical aspects but we're a, we're on Drupal nine now we're custom site and we have integrated. We have an integrated experience including complete document assembly in a triple tax way on our site so. And I always say this to folks. We actually decided to do it all in one built. I would recommend that for everyone, but the tears laughing at me, but anyways, you know, typical origin in some fashion obviously Ohio very much aware of the justice gap. It, the project itself actually started within the Ohio access to justice foundation. I was general counsel for the foundation at that point, and I said, Sure, why not, I'll do this as well. And so we incubated it first. But when we launched the goal in terms of the governance was that it would be an independent nonprofit and now I'm the executive director of that nonprofit. So, in terms of the oranges it comes from Supreme Court of Ohio convened task force on access to justice they recommended some really specific technology, including the development of a statewide website. And so we responded we actually put together a steering committee which is now my advisory committee. So our governance structure is I have a governing board that acts more like a traditional board fundraising. You know, engagement those types of things and then I have an advisory committee, which really was the steering committee that guided the initial creation so what we do is we guide users quickly we do it through a curated triage from our homepage. But you know as folks know most folks actually start on the content page by arriving at our site via Google search. I would say about 88% actually, because right now in terms of folks starting at our homepage. It's somewhere between 12 and 13% as a landing page. We inform users of their legal options we provide integrated tools to help them take the next steps. Typical plain language legal information. And then obviously the interactive form assembly and kind of a triple tax kind of guided interview, and then you get the forms at the end. In terms of our site we are mobile first so we actually built for your phone so we're building. We do wireframes for the smallest green out there so we think of the desktop secondary as to the mobile so we're mobile for site. And then we also connect users to curated community based resources based upon legal topics social needs demographics and geography and that is all part of the integration into our platform. Here's my advisory committee I'm not going to go through them all. And there's even more, if it's possible. But anyways, we actually meet with them quarterly they have work plans. And they work on their work plans and so they are part of the core group of folks that act as kind of content and user experience governance on the site. So we talk about governance in that fashion. We also have the alliance of Ohio legal aids but we also have the private bar. The judges are big champions of the site so we have the judicial conference, along with the Supreme Court, all as partners on this site. And I'm sure other states are similar to this. We also have the clerks courts, they're separate they're also parties to the advisory committee. I know this question always comes up especially when you're a nonprofit and you have to exist obviously so sustainability is one of the issues that I think about nightly. But you know in terms of that we have had some success. Here are in terms of our current funders they range from community foundations to private foundations to bar foundations to obviously Ohio access to justice foundation is one of our major partners and then in terms of LSE we've been fortunate to work with one of our community programs here in the state community legal aid, and they are our partner with respect to LSE take grants and so we've been fortunate enough to work with community late and LSE to do some substantial platform enhancements to the site. In terms of core topic areas but we'll see, you know, family is probably our number one and this is literally the order of kind of where things are now. Family followed by housing are usually our number one areas of access, followed by money and debt and then, and then it's actually going to court. Going to court that court navigation we actually did voice a customer we had a lot of data before we launched. We all got into the build. And when we did a voice to the customer we over sampled low income we had 800 Ohioans participate in that online study. What we learned was, they had said that after barriers like, obviously money, finding a lawyer those types of things. Their biggest fear their area of anxiety was actually understanding how to navigate that core process, actually, after they leave our site. And so going to court after kind of those core areas of family housing money and debt. It's usually one of our number one. I say after kind of access areas. And so, but obviously core areas public benefits education immigration and then we are launching the Spanish language version of the site. It technically exists but we'll launch it later this summer. And then in terms of the technical bill Drupal has a way to manage that content to manage both English and the Spanish language content. So we did those updates and we also did some custom updates for us to make that management of that content easier and for QA as well. Hopefully this video will work. Ohio legal help is a secure trusted website that helps hundreds of thousands of Ohioans navigate their legal challenges. This video will show you how to use the Ohio legal help website, whether that is from your phone or computer. Let's say for example, you have a family issue, you can click on the family card and answer a few questions to help us direct you to the right information for you. Once you are on the page, read through understanding the basics for step-by-step legal information and what action you can take. Next, look at forms and letters to see what forms might help with your legal issue. You can create an account through the MyOLH user hub, which allows you to find, save and complete court forms on your own schedule. Lastly, if you have more questions or think you need to speak with a lawyer or other community advocate, go to legal help and lawyers or local government and community resources for more help. Get started with resolving your legal issue today at www.ohiolegalhelp.org. Ohio legal help is a secure- That is the quickest demonstration I can do. I know we have limited time. So that gives folks kind of a generalized feel for the way the user experience on the site is. I always say big finger-friendly buttons and cards because we're mobile first, and that's why you saw the size of buttons in that fashion. The cards display in that fashion. We work on, I would say, a hub and spoke model. So the way we do SEO, we do SEO so that folks end up on those topic pages, if you will. Because those topic pages have the geo-curated links based upon legal area. So, for instance, we probably have nearly 2,000 curated resources on the site based upon legal area and geo-specific areas as well. So for instance, if you're thinking about divorce with kids and you told me you live in Franklin County, Columbus, Ohio, you're going to get the resources for that. And then, and we grab that information. And so that's integrated into our system. And then we have the management on the back end in terms of how we do that. And the way that our forms work, it's all on the site. So it's all integrated into the site. We have a process by which we do all of that, including the very tedious task of making every PDF form in the state accessible. And so that takes real time. And so that's part of kind of our workflow in terms of what we do. So, again, we launched in September of 2019. Currently, more or less, I mean, that's the visits that Google grabs about 80,000 visits a month. We know from our other analytics, we probably have more than 100,000 visitors on the site, but people actually mask. And then, today, since we launched in September of 2019, we've had more than 1.3 million users from all 88 Ohio counties, including counties that probably have less than 10,000 people. And more than 4 million page views, about 80, a little bit over 80% of our folks are from the state of Ohio. And then, you know, we have folks from all over, but the majority of our folks are from Ohio, and we do that a lot through a lot through in the way that we do SEO and data on the page in terms of because we really want Ohio folks. And then this year, we're probably going to have actually, that's probably this year's number, we probably have nearly 700,000 users, older PowerPoint, and probably next year will be closer to probably if we're experiencing about 20% growth, since COVID numbers, I guess, really accelerated everything. And so I suspect we'll probably be at like 900,000 in our next year of operation or so. And we also haven't launched Spanish language in, because I will tell you, content is not easy to manage. We've not, we have been, we've not brought on content just to bring on content, how about that. And what really brings folks to your site is Google loves content. And so we've been more judicious about that because we have to manage it and maintain it. So content maintenance is always a challenge. Quick facts, we're developed as Project Ohio Access to Justice Foundation. We're a statewide nonprofit. We actually established in 2018, but I would say we opened our virtual doors in September of 2019. We have five employees, I have a product manager, content manager. I have a data informed specialist. I have a comms manager and then I am one of those employees. So that is the five. We also have two contract content writers that work with us. And then I work with a development firm that we've had actually since the beginning. I have a 10 member governing really fundraising board and then one statewide advisory committee, there's two subcommittees, one which focuses on user experience and other focuses on finding unmet needs in their communities. And again, they have work plans as does my board. I run eight meetings a year for board meetings and for advisory committee meetings and then they have one joint meeting as well. And then that's it. I, you know, I think you really want to discuss a little bit, right? So I'm going to at this point, let you open it up for discussion and I'm going to stop the share. Yeah, if anybody has any initial questions, feel free to chime in. If not, I've kind of prepared some questions to kind of get the ball rolling. All right, so we'll start with my questions. And I actually died on a couple more questions after hearing you guys talk. Um, so first I want to just kind of, oh, David Gray has something both you can share. If you can share, David asks for you both. If you can share what is your annual annual budget, including everything from salaries to maintenance. The annual budget next year is around 850, 900,000 with salaries making up the bulk of that, but maintenance on the site and I have a subdomain because we run are going to launch a virtual self help center with the court in any day now. Anyways, and so I'll be hosting some subdomains are maintenance just on that alone, along with our core sites, even with the symmetrical code base is probably going to run 75,000 potentially a little under 100,000 just on maintenance alone site. It's a lot of security. We do a lot of security. Um, so our site is way more basic and you can see so on our end, it's me and as of less than 60 days ago it's one other staff person. So over the last year we've run on probably about $150,000 per year including website design maintenance and all the tools that we've created. So we run primarily through grant funding, and then we do receive some dollars from the court as well. Thank you both for sharing. So anybody have any other questions. I like to start off on a high note right because these projects. You know it's not just a website it's not that it's basic like it's still a lot of work, no matter if you're just starting out or you've been around for years right and so I'd like to ask each of you like what are you most proud about on your launch. Like what made you be like, listen, this is, I love this. It's going to sound awful, but I was just so happy we launched. Yeah, I think the fact that it got done, because it actually had been and you know there had been a statewide websites. And it was, it wasn't maintained. And so it kind of became obsolete and so. And then there have been a number of false starts to try to do it and it just didn't get done. And so after the Supreme Court's recommendation, you know the steering committee came together they all agreed and you know brought in all those divergent voices and we all agreed, based upon we did a really real data landscaping of this is what we're going to do, they all agreed and then we launched we did a friends and family launch we had I think 1500 folks in the system, including court staff, everyone that participated in our friends and family try to break it launch, and then we launched. And so, for me, that day when we hit and went live. I was just so happy. Yeah. Okay, thanks for sharing. I think I think on my end I would just say what we're most proud of I think as an organization is the shift in culture that we've seen since the website launched we launched, like I said, I mean it's pretty bare bones now but it was pretty basic and we did. I guess we're always super welcoming to the idea of having self help forms online or the idea that we would be adding document there's just a, there was a lot of navigation around that and I will say that I've people have the same feelings are not sharing them with the gusto that they used to so I think we have turned the tide a little bit. Like Susan mentioned a lot of it is just making sure that the content is good and making sure that it's usable for people and so I think once people saw that. Okay, well this is actually helping the court move a little bit faster and a little bit easier and saving everybody else time. We kind of saw that tide turn a little bit so I'd say I'm pretty proud to have played some part in that. Yeah, thank you. And kind of shifting over to content a little bit you guys both kind of talked about you know your content areas and what you have any website want to talk a little bit more about. How are you tracking the content. It's a two fold question first, how did you determine that the initial content, and then how are you kind of keeping track and maintaining that content. So, we actually did a voice of customer over sampled low income, and they told us, and number one, family law, everyone wanted family law. We then also survey 1200 stakeholders and system including hundreds of judges magistrates, attorneys, you know, community agencies. Family law. So there was a nice convergence, followed by housing evictions. And so we have that data and then we also looked at, I got the all the Supreme Court case management data. And so we looked at that as well. And from there, there was a really just nice convergence family law and and then we obviously look at our J on our site. We have a lot of specialized metrics we have some custom metrics through either hard coding it on the data layer, or we use GTM to tag data, but like our forms for instance. We look at success a little differently so we did our domestic violence forms with the advisory committee on domestic violence, and they wanted a red flags triage so I can look at our forms data to the question at which someone abandons and what we've learned is about 50% of folks stop at that red flag striage, which is exactly what it's supposed to do. And then folks go on because usually what happens in that red flag striage is we can connect them to a curated resource in their local area to connect with an advocate. It's super cool that you had access to all of that data. I'm not sure. It's probably a blessing and a curse, honestly, but yeah, yeah, be careful what you ask for, they will deliver it to you. Yeah. Kate. That's great. Yeah, so we, we were way more organic with our so we, when we launched our website we, our first charge was to take the forms and content that were already available on the Supreme Court's website and put it on our page so we knew basically what was coming over. And then from there, that content is was reviewed and approved by our one of the working groups in our coalition for court access. So we knew that content was going on, and then we use the website to kind of figure out what other people were looking for and we listened to our network provider so the bar foundation is also like the IOLTA funder in our community. We have legal assistance organizations that we partner with really closely on, on lots of different things so we listen to them what are they looking for when people come in to their offices what are they asking for what kind of content would be helpful and then they were really quick to give us a thumbs up or a thumbs down as we added content. And they keep asking for more so. And then we also get emails through the website so we get a lot of requests for information through there and we can kind of figure out, you know, one person's asking for it, we kind of can see a pattern and decide whether or not to add that content. Those questions all go through our coalition, and then we create the forms and move on from there and then how do we track it and keep it updated that's an ongoing challenge we're experiencing with different things the first thing that we did was give the form a form number that and in the form number there's the date of the last review so that feels like the most obvious way to track it so at least we know when it was last updated. And then there's a series of spreadsheets and review processes on the back end that's pretty basic but also time consuming that we do and then the other added layer that we have to as we add, like as we add guided interviews to make sure that there's forms on the back end of that and make sure that they're the same as the forms that we're offering in PDF so I would just say tracking content is a challenge. But we also were in the middle of building out a Salesforce app that will help us. It will help us kind of tagging calendar that content as well so there's tools that you can use to do it. And most definitely I think what I love that both of you kind of talked about is incorporating that user I've done many presentations on you know user testing and I really believe in getting used involved in from the beginning right. A lot of people feel like user testing should come when you already have something it's like no no no you get them involved from the beginning so I'm really glad that both you guys kind of touched on that. I have another question from David. He said, how are you working with your state's legal aids or other orgs in order to not duplicate efforts and or collaborate on content creation document assembly, etc. So in terms of duplication I think they're, I think, you know, I think there are kind of competing interests there, because sometimes funders want content and so I think some of our partners will duplicate content so I don't want to talk too much on on that because that's kind of driven by different competing interests, but in terms of how we collaborate with folks. So our content process is, I'm the only attorney on staff. And so our content is actually created by folks who are more experts in plain language and so all my content writers are actually non attorneys. But they have experience, like one of our content writers was pio for the governor and has a comms experience and so she knows about talking to people she was also my director of consumer education when I was turned to General's office and so we were kind of in that model. And we bring on a legal expert for every piece of content that we do, and we bring on someone from the private bar we bring on somebody from legal aid that's an expert in that area as well and then we bring on the court as well. All three get to comment because all three are, you know, and users of the information and then we use our past and so that's kind of our collaborative process we bring in partners that way. And then obviously, they tell us about needs that they're seeing that are going on met in the community. And then we obviously incorporate that information as well. Yeah, so similar and different so how do we not duplicate what our legal partners are doing around the state. I will say we don't always do that well, but we're in two different space, not two different spaces but we play different roles so Indian legal help really does try to be a landing pad of information for all of our legal assistance organizations around the state as well as we funded some art. So a lot of times we'll put up a form that maybe a different organization has available, but another one doesn't and what we do find in those instances to is not only are both legal assistance organizations willing to give us pointers and ideas about what to put into the form they're actually often glad that we put it up so they don't have to maintain it. So, there's not typically a lot of competition in there. And then as far as like I'm collaborating on content creation and document assembly same things I will say that we have really great partners that I know have said before but this up on our website but now that we have you there we're just going to link over to you because they would rather be providing legal services and maintaining their website so it's a partnership that way. And I will say, I think I maybe I think we might just be lucky here, but I've never had a legal assistance organization say no if I asked them to participate or review something or help me out with something and vice versa. Like the other day, at least one of our partners was creating a guided interview for internal work. And we've created guided interviews externally so we had a great meeting about tips as you're building guided interviews and we just share information that way they're also helping us do some user testing on a different guided interview that we created so it's really just sort of this, like open door policy we're all in this together and sort of just dropping the rope over possession. But how can we make this work most efficiently and most people are willing to kind of just figure that out as we go. So we it hasn't been a big issue to be competitive in that way. Great, I'm glad that you guys have had those experiences and people are, you know, willing to to kind of pitch in and collaborate. The next question is about forms. So the forms you guys have looked very different right. And so, you know, Susan you've got yours yours is free in your website, you users don't have to go anywhere. Kate you've got kind of like this dual thing going on where you have available pds but also guide interviews. So if you guys could just talk a little bit more about your form, Susan I'd love to know more about, you know what kind of talk you guys are using for those forms, and such. Just give us a little more information about your forms and your forms process. I'd love to hear. So we saw a base module on our form builds is a, we wanted a low code no code solution although, you know, we're pretty much in the YAML at this point but take that, you know, like when we started, we wanted a low code no code solution so we use the Drupal nine. We built originally on. I can't remember anymore. But anyways, Drupal version of Drupal how about that but we're on. Yeah, but we're on nine now. But anyways, we use the web for module but let's just say we, we use it in a way because we actually had to connect with the web for module developer. We're doing some additional proprietary enhancements to it. So we're using it in a unique way. But we use that as our basic web for module because we can build mobile first use utilizing that it would then we use an integration. So, after someone's completed with the form they can download the form or they can email the form to themselves. Our form integration our third party integrations is actually with a company called form stack. And so that's where the in a sense the, the web form submission data sits on our Drupal site so that we keep we maintain that data, but it goes to form stack and then essentially it integrates and it creates the PDF. If you will, so submission data, and then that's basically a JSON file so we have to do the mapping. And then in terms of the, since we do have an email integration. Those emails are we use SendGrid to do those emails and then we have a Crip complete like if you register for the site, we use, we use locker so that when someone registers so there's some MFA and you first register. And then we also do have to do captures and other things as well from a security perspective but essentially every time someone comes to the site and logs back in they get a unique key from Walker, it unencrypts their data just for that session. And then they basically after they leave. If they come back to get another key so every time, and we keep all the data encrypted both obviously during the session and at rest. We made the intentional decision not to keep any PII in terms of the way our state consumer statutes defined PII but that's very different than what I consider personal information for the purpose of security so. And then we have essentially a security policy and a century that's on the site that also helps monitor data prevents bots, a lot of different incursions that's been constantly monitored. So we're going to do that data capture, maintaining everything on the site. You really do have to have security that you're constantly monitoring. So I will say, you know, because we had a full security audit done. We had group force attacks done against the site. We to test it. Anyway, I'm not going to release like what we but you know I mean like it's important that if you're going to do forms properly with that data capture. You need to think about that we also got some great pro bono skills based assistance advice from Lexis Nexus, Lexis Nexus serves on the board and their parent company relics helped us and helped us with our privacy policy as well. So I say go and get some skill based volunteers they're fabulous. We obviously built really differently because we are not. We don't house our forms on the site and really for a lot of the reasons that soon Susan pointed out we don't have that type of data security that's what it was sharing at the beginning because we're out of the box without a custom build. We don't want to be collecting that kind of data. So we've built our guided interviews with a low code tool. We also called net documents before they were called after pattern before that called community lawyer. So we built and they host on their ADS AWS servers outside of outside of where we're hosted and then we do put it just a security warning on the website. And we collect data on the back end through that app. We chose to go that way primarily well or two reason well really three so cost. And then we didn't want to host on the website for security reasons. And then we wanted something that was lower no code. So we put those guided interviews on top of our fillable forms they do have to be separate we initially when we started building guided interviews. We intended to pull our fillable forms down because at the end of the guided interview their email to them or they can be printed. And we got a lot of feedback from our legal assistance organizations saying please don't take the PDF fillable forms down, because we want to be able to print them and hand them to people who do not who are really falling out like inside that are outside that digital divide so we left them that way. Yeah, so I guess I'll just stop there that's why we were building the way we are. And we'll see going forward with our new site, I think we intend to continue to build in our apps, but we're experimenting with a couple of other things to Yeah, we kept our download downloadable fillable blank PDFs on the site as well. They're just all like, you can either start the form or you can download the, it's all within kind of the same experience. I've been really envious of that experience for a really long time so I've been watching you and trying to figure out how you know how does this work and how can we. But yeah, we just haven't had the, the funding or the security measures to be able to do it but it's, it's great. Yeah, thank you both for sharing I'm really glad that you kind of highlighted. The aspect of collecting that information because it is important and I think that Kate you know while you guys have went to different route I think that you know you you pick the right thing right you knew you didn't have either you know the money and the capacity to you know do we need to be done security and so you found another way to make sure that your users. You know data was secure and that's that's the goal right. So I'm really glad you both highlighted that as I was intact last year our annual series was on security so we always want to highlight the security implications with all the tools that were that were developing and pushing out to the general public right. So we have about 10 minutes left so if anybody has any questions feel free to put them here if not going to ask them my last question, which is, what was your biggest challenge and creating your site. It's actually content it wasn't the technology. I say this. That the technology is merely a tool we build out additional tools so that my content team can have more, you know whistles and bells but building deciding what content first right. We got data to guide that, but then building out the content plain language. And then maintaining that content is probably, I would say, the biggest challenge in terms of, like, our day to day, and we have lots of tools we did a content audit we have a lot of things on the site that help us but it's still very much staff specific and you, it's something that if you're going to do this. I always tell folks, okay great you're going to build it and to fair, I think good sites can be very basic on the technology as long as the information is good because there's lots of different form integrations that's possible. But that content maintenance as other states have asked me I said, how are you going to maintain that content. I mean that is the biggest kind of what keeps you up at night kind of thing like how are we going to maintain that content. And then on top of that we're curating all those resources. Totally makes sense. Yeah, I'll just 100% agree. How do you keep it updated. So every six months, we have session and the statutes become updated and sometimes they're super friendly to self represented litigants you want to get that information out really quickly sometimes they are changing verbiage within, you know, a divorce petition that to self represented litigant is probably not going to matter but you don't want to give a judge some sort of license to reject the form because you're not following a piece of statute so it's just content update and making sure not only that your content is good but that you're linking to good content that's also staying updated so we have some pretty close parameters around what, what other resources will share on the site mostly limited to GOB sites. Maybe just a few, like few exceptions to that but yeah it's just it's content and making sure it's relevant and usable, and you're not sending folks down the wrong path. Yeah, that that totally makes sense. At my time at Michigan League of Hope I spent lots of time updating things right I mean you would spend days, just doing qas and it's got to be done it's more of the tedious work right because you're just reading things checking links you know. And so it can be it can be a lot, especially as you continue to grow your library right and when your staff stays the same right that only means one thing people have more more things to review. So I can definitely see how that will be challenging. And I, but I have faith that you guys are working that out and making sure that that's staying staying up to date. So all the questions that I had, you guys have been great sharing so much good information. You know that we just, we don't get to know it's like we we hear when it's all done right that we launched and just being able to learn how both of your sites came to be. It's just really insightful. I think super helpful. And even, you know, people even if you do have a site, I think there's still things to learn, you know, from one another and how we do things and, you know, a website is just, it's constantly evolving right like that is the state of the internet. It's constantly just different, you know, these iterations and sometimes daily depending on what's going on, right. And so I think we all have something to learn so thank you to both Kate and Susan for coming and sharing information with us.