 Good afternoon and welcome everybody at this ninth session of the green post-corona talks Organized by the Green European Foundation in partnership with the Flemish Think Tank OECOS. I'm Dirk Hollermanns I'm co-president of the foundation and host of these talks and As we learned during previous sessions people from all Europe are following these sessions their live stream on Facebook and This is of course great and you can make to make it an internet Interactive session you can post your questions on Facebook or use Twitter and Then I can see the questions in my chat box and we'll ask them in the second part the Q&A part of this webinar In this 9th session We will discuss the prospects for Europe in the wake of this crisis and on the one hand We for instance see member states competing with each other on the global market for to buy instant masks which is not really an example of cooperation and On the other hand We see the European Commission trying to build a common response to the crisis Which was already the case and is connected to it for instance the Green Deal And so yeah a lot of questions of course is this crisis a rerun of the previous Eurozone crisis. What about civil society? How associations of citizens organizing themselves and Also, what for instance is the relevance of the conference on the future of Europe announced by the Commission for Citizens and In order to discuss this wide range of issue two great speakers today First we have Shreiko Hognath. He's a Croatian philosopher wrote many books and also a member of the M25 Next we have Marie Toussaint, she's from France and a member of the Greens AFI group in the European Parliament We will start with Shreiko and listen how she's the current crisis and what this means for the prospects of the European Union Shreiko, I give you happily the floor So thanks a lot for for having me here Well, where to start first of all, I think you mentioned that the question whether this is a rerun of a previous crisis I think it's definitely not a rerun of a previous crisis It's nothing alike The previous crisis if you are thinking about the previous crisis of 2007 2008 Of course, there are parallels, but I think we are finding ourselves in a unprecedented historical situation. I think In the next years, I don't think we even have a decade Stop the disintegration of the European Union, you know when we founded the DM 25 the democracy in Europe movement We gave it the name 2025 and we started Presumption by a basic thesis, which is that if the European Union Won't democratize it will disintegrate But today I must say as a co-founder of the DM 25 that this seems already a bit optimistic You know, I don't think that we have time until 2025. You know that the next European elections are coming and so on But I think this is a very distant future While on the other hand, we are accelerating towards this dystopian future What do I mean by that? You know, if you just look at the reactions of the European Commission And the main institutions of the European Union including Frontex to the coronavirus crisis, you will see that Basically a sort of disintegration is already happening What I fear most is that unlike the crisis which led Greece To the situation in which Greece is today, you know, there is still a humanitarian crisis going on in Greece Not just with the refugees, but inside of Greece as well And you remember the reaction of the so-called Troika a name which is not spoken so often anymore But I think it should be spoken because you can see that now the IMF is again back in many countries and so on and During that crisis was more privatizations more austerity Bailing out the big players and so on and this is something what is happening today as well But it is happily happening on the whole European level, you know This is not anymore just pigs Portugal and so on But you now have also Italy, you know One of the one of the very important countries of the eurozone have Spain and you can see also what is happening in Germany and in many other countries. So I think we are facing an Unprecedented crisis just look what's happening in the United States I think it's impossible to talk about the future of Europe without talking about the future of the world Which then includes also the United States and what is happening now? Which is not just the coronavirus crisis, you know, during the last months I think many of us have been occupied by the coronavirus crisis We were trying to find ways out of this crisis We were of course also a dm25 like you criticizing the green you deal by the European Commission Which is not a green you deal at all But I think now we have to go a step further, you know Even this kind of situation where I'm looking to you through the screen and basically what all what I see here Is a green light and the dot which is my camera from from from from my computer This brings me to what is this which now McLean Klein recently had which is that besides the green you deal We have to start talking about this green new deal as well because it's connected What you have with the European Commission's green you deal you think you have this kind of Utopia that technology can bring the green you deal and that more market can bring the green you deal But what we what we witness today is that precisely those who have led to the crisis fossil fuel companies big air and companies and so on are being bailed out Well at the same time we have something which I think all of us have to focus much more Is the screen new deal in the sense that we have a rapid acceleration of? Online is Asian of of life Not just you know professional life, but private life and so on now of course you can say this is for the privileged classes like us Who can still talk through the screens and are at the moment not at the streets? But I think this is also a very important profound change that is happening of course we could talk about Shoshana's who both surveillance capitalism and so on but What I'm most interested in is how to think and how to react to all these Developments which are happening at the same time so you have a biological event Then bring us to to biopolitics at the same time you have a screen you deal which means that you have besides the biological Effects of a virus which then change society psychology and so on you also have This technological development, which is very important and at the same time what you can see is that? The two biggest of the existential threats not only for humanity, but for the planet itself are still here You know they didn't disappear on the one hand It's the climate crisis and on the other hand it is the nuclear threat Which never disappeared and it didn't disappear after the Cold War? So in this kind of situation where you have a virus you have moral stare at you have bailing out the rich you have structural racism Not just in the United States, but inequalities inside of our societies where you have a weaponization of a class war and then But where you have a further division between the center and the periphery of the European Union a Much bigger division than ever before you could have seen it, you know during the coronavirus crisis in which way cheap labor force from Romania, Serbia and other Or South European countries were treated, you know And this is something to stay this is going to go much deeper, and I'm afraid I'm not afraid I'm completely certain that the current Establishment or the deep establishment of the European Union doesn't have a response to it What will start happening as the effect of it might be something what is happening in the United States, you know Even this what is happening in the United States? Is something which I Think we saw it coming, but many people denied it, you know and even today if you I don't know whether you read This European commissioner. I don't know his name. I'm not so familiar with with the Brussels Landscape in the sense of the names of commissioners, but I this caught my eye Because a commissioner recently said that what is happening in the United States the militarization of police This can't happen in Europe in the European Union, and I think this is completely untrue You know, it reminds me of this book which Sinclair Lewis Published which the name was it can't happen here. It was published in 1935 and it's about fascism Same way. I think the European establishment is putting a blind eye On the on the situation which is all rapidly accelerating. You know, it's not just Hungary Like the bad apple of the European Union. It's everywhere and very soon I think we might also be facing a situation similar to to the United States I'm sorry if this is dark And maybe just to finish with a more Well, I hate optimism so I cannot give you an optimistic note. I think optimism is naive and dangerous But a more hopeful Ending of this on the one hand we have this situation, which I think is not like 2007-2008 or 1968 which is the parallel now with the United States. It is all of this combined You know, it is the Spanish flu combined Is it is the Cold War combined or the nuclear age climate crisis? It is all this so any parallel today I think is not sufficient anymore, but what you can see in this situation on the streets Not just you know all over the United States, but all across Europe it's it's a major historic movement which is now kind of Combining all the different aspects and different struggles Which in a sort of you know, COVID-19 served as a sort of apocalypse in the in the original Greek meaning of the Unwilling revelation of something and then revealed the structural violence of global capitalism And I think what you have now after a short slowdown You know when the skies were visible and some people who were happy enough to be in self-isolation We're in self-isolation after this slow slow down I think we have now a rapid acceleration which can lead in all directions And that gives me hope because for for the first time I think During a long period you can see that a planetary event is happening Of course, it might end up like the Arab Spring and so on I've written about it as well But I think our role today whether you know, you are in the European Parliament You're an activist an NGO a father a mother a child Is to join these movements and to build a different future because if you don't do it today tomorrow It will be too late, and I think 2025 is also a bit too late already So I stopped here because I'd love to hear from Marie and also to well to discuss. Sorry. I didn't prepare a lecture or something I hate it. No, no, no. Yeah Thank you very much. I think this is also already clear introduction and and very happy to learn your perspective on what's happening now and of course We also very interested in the view of Marie to say who is well as member of the European Parliament Of course in one of the core institutions of the European Union also Very close observing what the other parts like the European Commission are proposing and then of course certainly Assessing this from the critical point of view from the Greens. So I'm already I now give you the floor for this second perspective on the crisis in Europe Okay. Thank you a lot there Thank you to the Green Europe Foundation for inviting us and thank you for to Shresco to be here with us and discuss This is really important that we have different political families different perspectives in the discussion on what we need to do from number one and I do share several things with Shresco. Maybe just to begin with but Shresco was talking about the movement the social movement against racism that is Burning throughout the world following the death of the murder of George Floyd But of course, we also have this police violence in the EU and we should not forget that there are some families that are fighting to get justice for the members of the families who were killed because of Altercations with with the police and we should be really careful because we don't have the same violent story as the US But we do have a violent story as well And and this is also something that we need to keep fighting against In the coming years and it's not acceptable that in the 21st century. We still have this discussions on Discriminations against different type of people we should be A continent project where no difference no discrimination can happen and this is a real important point Something racism that we need to get rid of and we need to be really volunteers on that issue To get back to the crisis as itself, I really do believe that this crisis is unique But it can repeat itself and it will most certainly repeat in the coming years Why is this crisis unique? Well, because it it's first of all an ecological crisis We're not sure yet completely of how the COVID-19 Happened to humanity, but what we know for sure is that this kind of viruses Zoonosis are getting more and more numerous and stronger because as long as we destroy the environment and the habitat of animals the viruses that live in the animals jump quicker and faster on human beings and then because of our system This ecological crisis becomes a health crisis which becomes a social crisis because we live in a world Where everything everyone but especially the objects the products Travel all around the world so that it cannot be contained in some place Specifically, and it's not because only of the humans crossing borders It's also because of the product crossing borders because of globalization then the virus spreads really quick and Then it also becomes an economical crisis because we have to stop the economy to stay home And we don't know how to protect the people and especially the people in need from the impacts of this crisis So we saw in the territory The fact that well the poor people were hurt the most by the crisis because they already have diseases That are linked to poverty and that they that are environmental diseases like diabetes for instance and We also had the Lowers lower classes going to work The people that could work in offices we could stay home and this is a huge difference and we also noticed some episodes of Hunger coming back in the EU getting reinforced in the in the EU because of this crisis Which I repeat was at first ecological then became health crisis Then become became social and that is now economic and economic crisis so The fact that is that this crisis comes of the fact that our economy is not under control We do not make sure that the economy respect the planetary boundaries the environment neither that it respects the social needs This is the do not theory of K through a wolf where what we need to do right now is not to have The neoliberal point of view where the economy just directs itself But now we should be really firm in the fact that we take the economy We take the finance we take capitalism and we put it back under human control which it should have always been like this So the first lesson for Europe To my opinion is that it's urgent to put an end to this economic model that we had just before in the COVID-19 crisis and this is not what we see right now. We see attempts to fit back The system with still a lot of money going to fossil fuels for instance But we really need to Reorientate the economy and put it at the service of the people and of the planet and one of the first things that we need to do is to behave to be exemplary within the European Union to really fight against climate change and this is one of the Efforts that we make to push for the climate law to be really ambitious But also to push forward the strategy on biodiversity to be really ambitious And it's also about our relations to the rest of the world And we can't keep having free trade agreements with the entire world if we want to grow our own food important deforestation and Just to let you know but the EU is a major driver of deforestation around the world because of our imports Especially so yeah, but it's also the same for pime oil or for cocoa We have a lot of consumption here in the EU that is destroying the planet everywhere around and that is responsible for the violation of rights of people That are also quite Exposed to the COVID-19 and I'm thinking especially of the indigenous people were crying for help right now And they are absolutely not responsible neither for climate change for the loss of biodiversity or for the COVID-19 crisis That also means that we need to refund our System of solidarity the way we envisage solidarity and I will talk about two points there first of all between the member states We have a common market, but we don't really have a common budgetary policy a common economic finance and the first The proposal that just was that was just made by the Commission is the first step towards the finalization of the European Union towards the federalist European Union with mutualization of part of the debts and also with the Will to raise proper resources on resources So it's the first step But it's really not enough and as we are seeing the European Union falling apart It's the Brexit, but it's also of course What had what's happening in Hungary or in Poland? Talked a bit about that as we see the European Union Exploding or imploding we really need to Yeah to take not only one step, but ten steps in the direction of a real European Solidarity the second thing of course, it's our internal solidarity with the people among the people and by the people we need to Access to health and we know that austerity measures have been have had a huge impact on health, but also on education We also need to have Minimum income for the people whatever the form that it could take, but we need to have some funds For solidarity to refuse that people live under a certain level of financial resources And at last we need to have a real policy on environmental justice Nobody's talking about that right now, but it's as I told you there are some people that are more Subject of environmental diseases That leave next to big factories that are polluting That leaves right to next to highways And it's the same people that are always also getting the diseases the diseases first like the COVID-19 one And maybe as a last point, I would say that For to reach all of these goals, we would need to reform the economy as well and a recovery plan can be interesting because We need to support the economy of course and the activities It's also good because we didn't have enough money for the Green Deal That's a bit like Shreco said while saying that the Green Deal was not ambitious enough anyways But it's good that now we are able to push for the money to be put on the table to ensure it that we have the real transition It's still not there yet and we need to go and to move way Further and forward on that issue Then I would quote three points and then I will stop with this first intervention But first we need to reform the European Central Bank. We need to make the money a common good We need to be able to choose as citizens if we create money or if we don't create money and if we create money for what goals and What is urgently needed is to allow the transition the green transition to be made so we need to There creating money to transition With the economic thinking in the European Union up to that point. The second thing is that we Have to accept to withdraw from certain domain of activities. I'm thinking of aviation I'm thinking of car transportation Truck transportation and we can talk about many other activities where we human are doing more harm than good To the planet but also to ourselves and this is a gesture of humility from the humankind to accept that we need to Yeah, we've drove from certain domain of activities and to be a bit more Cautious in the way we engage in activities not every production that every consumption is worth it And the last point is that we of course need to invest to invest in the green Activities to invest first of all in agriculture not like not only with digital Solutions digital is not the problem and the is not the solution to everything But it's human activities that is the solution and a good agriculture and agro ecology Policy could also have created a lot of jobs It's of course also in the renovation of buildings in energy efficiency in renewables and the protection of nature We have a lot of domain where we could invest and create jobs that are good for the people and good for the planet and also guarantee that we have Yeah, the basic needs that To me this crisis just shows that all the ecological Ecologist proposals made this last year are good and legitimate and that we really could enter to this crisis with green policies It would also need to change the treaty and I'm fighting for an environmental treaty to be Adopted at the European Union level for the moment. It's not on the table But I hope that with the conference of the future of Europe we can put this at least and at last on the table Okay, thank you for this very inspiring first perspective Maybe Shrekko, I can invite you to give a reaction Either on the global perspective Marie Made or on some of the three points he made I noted reform from the European Central Bank second except to withdraw from certain economic activities three investing green activities, so please Give you reaction Yeah Look, I could also agree on the point that we obviously need to radically rethink the European Central Bank You also mentioned the universe basic Income we have dm25 as soon as the crisis started and you know this talk about the Euro bonds started and so on We published a three-point plan as well where European Central Bank is included but instead of Universal basic income we talk about the universal basic dividend The difference is that you don't take time. I'm simplifying of course, but you can check it on the dm website You don't take the money from taxes But you actually take the money from dividends from the big companies So that's I think the small difference But we came to a calculation that by using the existing institutions You could give around two thousand euros per month to each European citizen Which would of course make that transition easier, especially in the period where millions of people will lose their jobs but I don't see that Current European direction is going in anywhere close to that, you know So that's the problem You also said that at one point That we have to put capitalism under under human control Where I agree with many things which you said, but that's one of the things I don't agree Because I don't think that capitalism can be put under control. Of course what you are doing inside of the European Parliament what Many people are doing either in government governmental positions or institutions and so on at least those of These people who are progressive Is to try to do what is possible to do it today and to prepare for the future which is Coming in the next years, but I think we at the same time needs to have a long-term perspective, which is, you know Deal with the things which we can deal with Which I think more and more it will become and it always was but I think if the COVID crisis showed anything is that We also have to rethink Not just that the question of the state, but also the question of institutions So I think of course it is, you know I was always of the position we were running for the European Parliament as you know That we need to try everything we can, you know that you need to try to do it from inside of the European Parliament You need to try to do it outside of the European Parliament But I think what the COVID-19 crisis showed is that we have to start building institutions You know, it's not just enough to enter institutions and then using use the existing mechanisms of those institutions Which then very often end up in the long march through the institutions Although, you know, this famous Rudy Duczka saying although I would prefer a very quick march through the institutions Which would then enable to change the situation radically But I think we need to start creating our own institutions when I say that yes, we need to Work together on a Green New Deal for Europe. We need to work together with Movements from Canada, United States, Africa, Asia on a global Green New Deal Which would take into consideration Colonize the Green New Deal as such and that technology itself is not a solution, you know to exchange To remove fossil fuels and have lithium batteries is not a response It's not an answer as such because it still relies on the expansion of capitalism and extraction of natural resources in order to get the lithium batteries, you know So what I'm saying is I think we have the big task to work together All of us on a global Green New Deal, which would be as you said Adjust transition adjust new the Green New Deal But without the colonization of it I think it won't be successful and without the necessary criticism of global capitalism. It won't be successful You know, everyone speaks about not everyone at least in my circles about post capitalism and but post capitalism can be also something much worse than this kind of The technological utopia where we will have universal basic income and we will all ride electric bikes There will be no cars and so on post capitalism can also be something much worse You know, it can be an authoritarian version of a system which won't be capitalism anymore. Even that's possible But in any case, I think we have to try to do everything what we can Inside the institutions outside of the institutions, but what what is crucial and that's what COVID-19 showed is to start building Institutions, I know this might sound quite apocalyptic, but thanks. God. I'm not an MEP. So I probably couldn't say that but I'm just finished the book up on the apocalypse and one of the point is that already today we have to build Such sorts of institutions or even relations between humans, which are not these screen relations if you ask me Which would be able To create or sustain a sort of society after the total collapse I know this might similar to what some dudes mainly white male from Silicon Valley are saying so they either escape to New Zealand or to Mars but my point is different instead of escaping there is no escape from this planet and Most likely there is also no escape from an even more an even worse climate crisis and most likely there is also no escape from Depending nuclear threat So if we have this in mind, I think then already today We have to start building Society for after the apocalypse. This is me saying as an author of a book on the apocalypse And I know it sounds apocalyptic, but that's how I see it now And I'm sorry if it's if it's not really hopeful. So maybe one last point Okay, no, I stop and I want to hear Marie. Yeah, sorry Yeah, I think it's interesting to hear Marie, but she shared this apocalyptic view this kind of first Something very bad has to happen and then we can on that on the ruins of that built a new society Yeah, I guess this is not the talk of the town in European Parliament. I didn't Didn't say that exactly because I'm saying it's something bad already happened And it's not COVID-19 it already happened the apocalypse happened already. That's my point. Sorry for that Yeah, I'm not an apocalyptic person to just to answer and Yeah, my philosophy is not optimism It's more hope as you said and I believe that as a privileged person I have no right not to be hopeful and not to act in favor of making the situation better for all the people That's also part of the colonization when you're European, you know that you've been Your ancestors have been the one beginning to destroy our world So we have even more reasons to you know deploy a lot of efforts to repair it as much as we can That's so that that's my philosophy on that But yeah, I think it's really interesting what you said Shreshko and I would answer I think some of your points First of all, but the minimum income I think it's really interesting to you know dig that and I know that we can do it It's just a matter of political choice So I'm not denying but what I'm afraid about in the left movement is that Some of the left people and I'm not saying you are but some of the left people still believe in growth in Productivism and in the fact that the more we produce the better we'll be able to share and I think that this is a real Breakup that we need to do now is that we're producing too much. We're consuming too much we have an ecological footprint that is way beyond what we can do and since colonization we've been producing for the well-being of the richest people and We have been and we or we today have an inheritance of a strong Society here in the EU, but also in the US. Of course, we have this like solid societies We have a lot of infrastructures and everything that we've been really we've been really Building on the exploitation of other people and of the planet So now we need to you know Ensure it that we accept to decrease so that we can Reimbursed our debt to the people and to the planet and I think this is really something that needs to be said It's not about the growth because I don't think that's the issue but the growth as an ideology as a goal. It's more about Do we accept that? Yeah, we ensure the basic needs for everyone, but that we degrow from certain sectors and also from you know The richest so you talked about taxes and about dividends and it's a we can I think we can really Work in the direction together and this is something that we share actually The second point about the institutions that you say That would be more my point But I believe that and and as long as we are minorities in the Cultural minority or a cultural majority But as long as we are not in majority in the existing institutions at least We really need to have a social movement and even if we would be Even if we won the elections Everywhere around in the EU which would already be great, but we would still need society to be living and strong and I personally keep working within society as well as in the institution because I don't believe that Institutions can change the lives of the people if the people are not pushing for it themselves And I also don't believe that we'll be able to change in these institutions The way they're made when with the influence of the lobbies and stuff if we don't have a strong civil society But in mirror of that in parallel of that I Also don't believe that we can change society if we don't have people that are able to adopt laws in institutions because even to Disintegrate themselves because we ask for a new treaty for the EU or a new Republican friends, for instance, but we need the people that vote those laws So we need to be you know under two places and those two places need to work together more closely than they do up to that point I do believe that and also When we talk about globalizations and stuff I do believe that we need to have nature entering in the political discussion in democratic discussion. We've been And even in the even longer the rights of women to vote and You know now we need to go to the end of democracy where nature Can also talk and we need to find ways to do so. There are some countries that are you know initiating Attempts to take into account the voice of nature But we need to go in that direction of recognizing the rights of nature and and having also the status and a Representation for the global comments at the global level Maybe the third point and then I will stop there I Heard myself saying let's capitalism under control I think it's also because it's in English But of course when I'm saying that we need to respect the planetary boundaries and that we need to respect people social needs I don't see how we can do that with capitalism and For me there is no position between the emergency to act and the destruction of capitalism because It goes together if we act for the planet and for the people it destroys capitalism as such, you know And if we destroy capitalism, of course, it won't There are some systems of domination and of exploitation of the people and of nature outside of capitalism as well And we need to fight against it also So this is a real strong fight that we need to do and of course it can only be done at the global level and I think I told you a bit already in my intervention about Colonization processes and how it worked But it's still happening now. I'm really I just want to tell you a story and I will end with that but in France we had those colonies and still have the ultra periferic regions as we call them and for instance They don't have the same rules as on the French territory France banned oil exploitation in the seas along the territorial seas the territorial coast But we didn't buy it, but we didn't manage in the ultra periferic regions So there are still places where we have extraction Extractive activities in the sea and also on the ground, but the sea is the major difference between France Exagonal France and a periferic regions, but we also have a pesticide for instance like the cloridecone which was authorized a real long time in in the ultra periferic regions and in many domains we still Policies here and there we have of course a different kind of color of skin population, you know and and We need to acknowledge These territories, but also the people who are there and who are still fighting battles that really look like You know the continuity of The fight against colonization and this is yeah something that We need to do and this is about a global Green New Deal. I do agree with that But it's also how do we engage in the fight with the people and this is really important for me there That we lead our fight on our territory and we support the people who are leading their fights in their territories Yeah, if I may respond directly or because I would love to respond to to your first and second point So the first point was about progress And the second one was the point about nature and global commons and then maybe we can speak about colonization again So first of all regarding progress and growth If there is anything I despise it is the term progress Which sounds a bit Weird from someone who was involved in a process of founding something what we call the progressive international But this progress is referring to something else So my problem with the term of progress is mainly philosophically based You will remember Walter Benjamin the great German philosopher who said that there is no document of civilization Which is not at the same time a document of barbarism and then of course he took the famous Angelus Novos painting by Paul Klee and wrote about the Angelus Novos which is the angel of history which Where we See progress the angel of history sees just an accumulation and accumulation of ruins of destruction and Why is this concept of pro-destructive? I think It is relying on a conception of time Which is a concept a linear conception of time a chronology Chronos from the Greek term which which precisely describes this kind of linear linear development of history, you know from Jesus Christ to Donald Trump for instance And then it goes like this, you know or tomorrow and then the next day after and so on I'm more much more In favor of a different conception of time Which is the time of kairos, which is the time of a crack Inside of what we perceive as normal time And this is something what Benjamin was writing about but it's also something what Carlo Roveli in his beautiful book The order of time writes about so their commonalities between Historical materialism on the one hand and quantum physics and I think if we still rely on this concept of progress Which is the capitalist concept of progress. We are on a one-way street to not only self-destruction But destruction of the biosphere Not just nature, but everything what is connected to the planet of earth, which is also the semiosphere You know that the ability that we talk the fact that there is something such as history Which won't be there anymore if there are no humans and no one to be a witness to the final catastrophe And unfortunately the capitalists notion of progress is really based on this linear conception of time Progress mainly means Where progress is based on expansion never ending expansion of capital into all spheres of nature and Human daily life, but it's also based on a sort of colonization of time You know, I think we have to start thinking it's impossible to do it Easily but to think about the concept of time not just you know We don't need just a progressive international which would be Spatial, you know that as you said rightly we have to work In our countries You know on the grassroots level to try to change our societies or even our own neighborhood or our own apartment building or whatever You know from the micro local to the national and as you said we at the same time We have to connect to other movements, but this is still just the spatial perspective I think what Greta Thunberg and Fridays for Future Introduced, I mean it already existed in philosophy of course from Benjamin to Günther Andersen's and so on What's precisely this time perspective, you know that what we are trying to do now is actually to run fast in order to The day after tomorrow and to save it from destruction to put it like that I don't know one good example is nuclear waste for instance, you know, how long will Plutonium, you know the half-life of plutonium is 24,000 years for instance So it's we have to think in that perspective, you know What will be left after the humans even if there are no humans and what kind of ethics with the will it have on the Planet and in this sense and I come back here to to your second point about nature. I think you know some of the theories Are a bit naive or even quite optimistic. I know that A great figure a great theorist James Lovelock recently published a book, you know, the author of the guy at this is A published a book which is called Which is aiming So that instead of the anthropocene We we would start using a new term which is the novel scene and his main thesis which I think is It also already existed, you know in the last 100 years of philosophy At least that we are reaching something what is what he's calling the novel scene Which means the merging between technology and nature, you know, so that you will have a kind of cyborgs And that the humans perhaps were just something what is It was just, you know a shortcut between nature coming to the stage of technological Development, but I think this is quite naive because I don't think that With the current as pathological and existential threats I think we don't have so many years even to build this kind of utopia It's just another side of the same coin and the other side is, you know, escapes to Marx, Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, and so on So to come to your second point and then I stop Which is about nature. I fully agree But I think and and I think yeah the the concept of commons is is really useful because It shows in which way Nature itself, but not only nature also emotions. I mean this what we are doing now It involves some sort of emotions. Although there is a screen. Although this is a very alienated situation But even emotions are being being colonized by capital, you know, this is transmitted on facebook We are using this or that everyone is using all these technologies by a few big companies from Silicon Valley Which are not paying taxes in Europe and so on But it also affects emotions. So I think instead of just talking about the global commons, which Are sort of planetary commons, which wouldn't just include nature Like, you know, in the sense of natural resources, you cannot privatize water You cannot privatize the oceans and so on But it would also include Emotions if you want I didn't develop this further but Eva Ilouz was Writing about it about emotional capitalism, but it would also include time Time itself as a sort of commons, you know the time we have or the time which is which which is still remaining I think that's that's that should be perceived as commons, you know the fact that Most of the companies or leading governments in the world Have a very short time frame where they just want to accumulate more power and then push their own interests through electoral politics I think this time precisely this concept of time this concept of progress is The reason why we are heading towards this one-way street of not only self-destruction, but destruction of the biosphere and the semiosphere Maybe there was a question in the chat box on capitalism and Talking about global commons, but maybe we can also introduce commons more at Either local level or distributed level think about Media as part of the alternative economy Would be interested to hear your views on that. So not only the global commons, but also a commons-based economy Yeah, I was I'm not surprised that you're asking that because I know that you're acting a lot on that issue And it's really interesting I will answer both things then also to rebound on the the end of schrikos Schrikos intervention I kind of share I think everything you said in your last intervention just to go even a bit further On that I'm a bit worried. I have to say about the fact that Green people in a broad sense are now really calling for science as an ultimate solution And it goes for me with what you underlined on on progress because science is also used to to go in one direction and Bruno Latour in France showed it in a real clear way as well that We create the knowledge that we think is useful for our society And sometimes we've been calling to science to save us whereas it was destroying us and it's the example of gmo the example of nuclear power and all that stuff so I Do believe that we need to you know acknowledge the fact that even science is a political fight And a social movement fight And and also within the rights of nature approach Who is able to talk on behalf of nature? And this will be a fight as well Do we believe that it's the scientists only who can talk with regard to what I just said? Or do we believe that it's Local communities and we know that under economic pressure the local communities can also you know drop out Or localized comments And and this will be a political fight and that's also where we need to stand together also with economic and social solutions So that local communities don't have to to drop out of the protection of their own ecosystems as we saw for instance in canada with the Dark sense of this kind of stuff And on the reverse way I also do believe that if we listen to local communities trying to protect their own environment would it be Indigenous people against mining or would it be people living in the neighborhoods? How would you call that district areas le bon lieu? Well, we're protecting we're fighting to get Working elevators in their building to be able to get out and this kind of thing You know all those people that we need to be We need to listen to them because they also show us a way to protect the planet So I'm not sure I was really clear but I was saying basically that we'll still have a political fight in front of us if when even if we Are a critical progress and even if we rely on science and science based solution And even if we have these rates of nature approach even Um, but that's somehow if we know how to envisage some of the social movements and social fights going on Uh for the protection of people's rights, then we'll be able to protect the planet better Um, and on the localized commons, I think it's really important I would put health for instance within the global commons approach as well as knowledge Um, and on the localized Commons, we have natural localized commons as well like forests or some small forests or stuff like this that you know lake That is a natural local common And we also have everything that we build in common um, which is um, yeah public spaces that we Get involved in and this kind of thing and and For me the approach of commons is Really important. It has a lot of implications And um, it's really important to work on this. Um And it's really about how people get back to power And that it goes to me, um the brexit Campaign get back control I don't think brexit was getting back in control for the population But I do think that comments and developing the comments relying on the comments and trying to Rebuild comments everywhere in our House building in our district in our city in our country And each common has the right level of governance, you know Well, this is getting back in control and I I also do believe as I said in my first point that it's also An orientation that is and will be protecting the planet Okay. Thanks. Maybe a shrikel You can also elaborate on your how commons could be part of this alternative economy Yeah, I first like to to agree with marie on her point, uh, which I find really necessary today, uh, that you know That science is never neutral, you know science is also always already political, uh, uh, I mean Mengele was also a sort of science Come on. So if you say listen to to science, then it can also you can listen to Mengele and those who are using science Uh, uh, to do experiments on humans or develop the atomic bomb. You know, this is also science Uh, um, and the same goes for technology, you know, the the great french philosopher who died Uh, two years ago. I think paul virillo, uh, he's his whole over Or how you would say it in french, uh, his whole work was dedicated to this You know fact he famously said that the invention of the ship is also the invention of the shipwreck So in the same way, you know, the invention of the atomic Power or the atomic bomb is also the invention of Hiroshima Uh, uh, and in that sense, I think in the same way technology is never neutral And it is always political in the same goes for science and you could have seen it precisely in the covid 19 situation, you know, uh, in some countries, uh, I don't know how it was in your country in France or in belgium But in some countries epidemiologists became almost more important than politicians, uh, you know And constantly it was, uh, I mean I on the one hand I really like how people made a kind of mental collective mental jump in the sense of starting to think about health My epidemiology and so on, uh, which then of course very often leads also to to to conspiracy theories 5g Which I also don't like but I don't think there is any kind of connection with the coronavirus crisis Uh, uh, except that we will spend more time online. So that's why we need more faster internet But uh, so on the one hand, I think there was a kind of educational mental jump in the same way that the state choose Which are now being demolished from leopold the second to slave trader in bristol are Educational jump, which is much a much bigger educational jump than any history book. You can read I think But on the other hand, you could have seen that this kind of scientists biologists and so on became a sort of technocratic elite And that science was always political, you know the fact that I don't know I was stuck in Vienna during the lockdown that in Vienna. It was Uh, uh, you you still have to wear a face mask in supermarkets or public transport. I came to Croatia Completely different world, you know, no masks nothing. I mean And we are much better one of the best countries in europe. I don't know whether it was pure luck or not Uh, uh, but you can see that even the question of the face mask didn't have to do anything with health issues at the beginning You know, some countries didn't introduce face You know something which you have to wear simply because they didn't have face masks And then one where all virologists came to television and say we don't need face mask because of health issues So this is just a small example. How science is always politicized Uh, and uh, what was yeah, what was the the question on On commons and common economy economies. I've written Uh The the markets in in Greece after 2005 after dochi referendum and the austerity packages Uh, to research how after the potato movement, they had this kind of trend of new alternative economies Which are found very interesting and that's a good example how technology can be used in a positive way, you know So that you connect small producers Together with the consumers and avoid the middleman or the big supermarkets That's what what's happening and what's happening in Greece the same. I visited cooperatives in in katalonia. For instance Uh, they went even a step further. You know, they are they are experimenting with communes Uh, uh, you know a kind of merging between cooperatives and communes. I know in france Of course, there is this famous case of marival noit, uh, tarnak nine Uh, and I have my criticism of them as well But I think uh, you know, they made a good point that if you really want to build a future society You have to build it and now and uh, that means a radical red definition of Consumption progress. How do we treat other humans? How do we treat the nature? How do we treat other species? Well, these are all big questions and I think they have so much to do because as you can see the world is accelerating in a completely different direction current Okay, thanks And speaking about acceleration also is one hour for this webinar went very fast and Uh, we still have three minutes. And so I first want to use it to ask Maria last question You mean you mentioned the conference on the future of europe and and the importance for involving citizens. So Uh, what do you think? How this what could be the potential of this conference? The potential is huge Now, how how will it work? We don't know. Um, but The construction of europe has always been within the hands of the countries Um, and what we agree in our defending right now is that we put in back for real in the hands of the citizens Not only to vote on referendums In the end to say if they agree or don't agree or the changes of the treaties which would be Um proposed but Even to design which kind of european union we want And so that we're pushing for citizens assemblies to be organized We had some examples throughout the eu in france. We have the climate citizen assembly that is finalizing his work Uh, and that is really more green that any government we had in the last, you know, decades or centuries Um, so when you gather people They are more greens and more social than than even social and left and You know green things in governments. Um But we also had other examples, uh in iceland for instance or local examples as well So we know how to do that. We know how to gather citizens and to tell them Where do you think the european union should go and they can answer that? Um And then of course we have our own proposals from the green family To put forward in this discussion Um, I talked about an environmental treaty before I think at least for me. It's the most important thing Because it would allow To organize all the rest the institutions the social policies, but also the economy Which is the most important thing to control. Um And their environmental rules and environment are not just about the environment They're about the rights of people the rights of people to feed to breathe to drink water Um to live in a decent house and decent environment. So it's also really social Um, and that would be the main point, but then we have a lot of work to do on, um, real solidarity as I said, uh We have a lot of, you know mechanisms to work on we have for instance Um, european citizen initiative, but which is really difficult And we had this big movement in france for the last year and a half The yellow vest movement, which i'm sure everyone heard about That began because they were against an unjust carbon tax that weighed more on the poorest people the one who polluted the list and Was really cheap for the biggest polluters. So they raised, um against this unjust environmental policy, but not against psychology. They raised against injustice injustice Um, but really quickly their main revendication was about direct democracy and We can really feel like if we give the The words the choice the decision back to the people Um In all our decisions then They can be more fair and more just it's a bit like I said, uh on the citizens assembly Um, so I don't know where it will go We have this fight right now going on to get the most citizens possible Involved in the revision of the treaties. We need to revise the treaties on many different issues We need to have the citizens deciding from the beginning Um, and yeah, we're working in the direction and I really hope that that will be Um, indeed with the commission with and the council, of course will will launch So we'll see in the coming weeks, uh, what is decided. Um, but again, uh, let's give back control to the people Okay, thank you very much. Uh, so Treco the last word is for you How do you see the citizens And citizen movements re-arranging european union or Building new institutions as you said Mm-hmm Well, I'm all for citizens assemblies, but I'm not so optimistic or hopeful towards the conference for the future of europe Uh, uh, because I think what you can see now is some it's a very similar situation. I don't know Many greens were part of the world social forum, right? Uh, uh, good old days of the world social forum and at the same time I remember when the I think was it in tunisia or in senegal? I'm not sure completely I remember at the same time, uh, you know, the arab spring was happening Uh, uh, there was occupied wall street. I think that's the one in senegal, which happened 2011 And you had occupied wall street tahrir and everything and so on and you had 50 000 people in the world social forum Uh, uh, but of course there were many connections between these movements But at the same time you had an older institution organization and you had so many new social movements Which started to flourish even without direct connections And I think we are in a kind of similar situation today where, you know, we can organize on the one hand Citizens assemblies, but at the same time, I think social movements are also very fast Uh, uh, you don't underestimate the power of political subjectivation, which happens when A few people, uh, tear down a state shoot To a slave owner in bristol. I mean just look what's what kind of domino effect it had And I think that's also something we have to take into consideration, you know Sometimes this small act can have a much bigger effect than than than than than many other acts And the question then besides solidarity is the question of organization And I think that that's the crucial question, uh, how to organize this existing Uh, uh, I wouldn't call it spontaneous energy because it's not spontaneous It's it's it's a reaction to the structural violence of the system And how do we organize this at the same time on a local level and on a planetary level? I think that's the big question ahead of us And to try to rethink radically also the role of institutions, uh, besides Being part of them trying to get as much as we can out of them for the progressive cause I think, yeah, it's time also to and many people are doing it many social movements already to build new institutions And when I say building new institutions, I don't think about building a new european parliament I'm talking about something much more than just that. Yeah Okay, no, whether that makes sense or not But anyhow, I'm really grateful that we spend this hour together And hopefully next time in person Okay, I want to thank you both for this very, I think open conversation about Let's say a lot of things Especially I think the analysis There's a kind of agreement but then also for how to react certain agreement and certain different points But I think for me, this is the definition of democracy. It's a kind of organized way of having different opinions And so, uh, I'm sure that after summer we will come back on this topic the future of the european union I want to thank both speakers and to the people watching us if you appreciated this session There's a link in your chat box if you want to make a donation Which allows us to organize even more of these green post-corona talks And I would also invite you for next week We already have then the 10th session of the green post-corona talks Where young people will be giving the floor and they will Yeah Tell us how they experience the crisis How they look at the future so many thanks again for being with us and hopefully We see each other next week again Thanks to you very thank you Bye bye We're not live anymore Okay, okay Many thanks. I really found it very interesting