 Welcome to the Bogleheads Chapter Series. This episode was hosted by the Minnesota Bogleheads and recorded June 12, 2021. It features Alan Roth and Mel Lindauer. The topic is Framing Financial Decisions and Bogleheads Philosophy. Bogleheads are investors who follow John Bogle's investing philosophy for attaining financial independence. This recording is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as investment advice. Alan Roth and Mel Lindauer. So Alan, he's the founder of WealthLogic. He's been working in the investment world for 25 years of corporate finance. He served as a corporate finance officer of two multi-billion dollar companies. He consulted with many others. Alan has a decade of experience in portfolio construction and performance benchmarking. He's appeared on numerous TV and radio shows, which I can attest to. Alan's everywhere, I think. You turn on a show and hey, there's Alan. He takes pride in being mocked on a semi-regular basis by some financial professionals for his hourly fee model and his obvious inability to make himself rich, kind of like Jack Boglehead. He is also the author of how a second grader beats Wall Street. He writes for the AARP, the Wall Street Journal and others. He started investments in behavioral finance at the University of Denver. Despite many of his credentials, CFP, CPA, MBA, he has earned that he has earned. He claims he can still keep investing simple. His professional goal is to never be confused with Jim Praner. So that's Alan. And before we move on to Alan's thing, Mel Lindauer. I call them the first Boglehead, the first Vanguard diehard. Why is that? I think we have some questions where we'll dig into that history. For many of you that don't know, Mel was a Marine. He spent a lot of time in the Marine Corps in the station out of Philadelphia. And that's where he remained after his discharge. At Jack Bogle's request, Mel founded and served as president of the John C. Bogle Center for Financial Literacy from its founding way back in 2010 until his resignation in 2019. Mel and his friend and co-author, Taylor Larimer, arranged the first skit together with Jack Bogle and about 20 folks down in Miami in 2021 years ago. That was to be the first of the annual Boglehead's conferences. Mel also is a co-author of the two best selling Boglehead books on investing. The former columnist for forms.com. He was a moderator and contributor at the original Morningstar diehard forum and now continues to act as moderator and contributor at the Bogleheads.org forum. Money magazine, honored Mel is one of the money heroes for his work in investor education over the years. Wow, so these two guys, I'm going to shut up here so we can hear from these guys. So, Alan, take it away, please. Great, thank you. Can you see the slide? Can you guys see the slide? Yeah, we sure can. Alan looks great. Okay, good. Okay. Terrific. Well, first of all, thank you for having me. And, you know, to all of you out there, you do so much on the Bogleheads forum to help so many people everywhere. And that's a wonderful thing. So, you know, as a licensed financial planner, I've got to give a couple of disclosures, legal disclosures. Number one, I despise coming after Mike Piper. The guy is so darn good and gives away all of his brilliance, you know, without any incentive to make profit. Makes me look very bad. He used to live out here. I so miss him and Mel way to go because I think you're the guy that discovered him and brought him into the Bogleheads. Second of all, as a licensed financial planner, I can exaggerate. So I owe my life to Jeff, who saved my life about a dozen years ago. When I wrote a column for Money Magazine called The Mole, it was kind of the hidden secrets. It was an anonymous column of the hidden secrets of the financial services industry. And I made a post that allowed people to track who I was and Jeff protected my identity from the insurance world. So thank you, a little exaggeration. So I'm going to talk, you know, a lot has changed since The Mole, you know, expenses have gone way down. There's now more money in US stock index funds than active funds. I mean, Jack Bogle and all of you really have succeeded. So I'm going to talk a little bit about a mole like still how my industry tends to frame things that may not be good for you. And I'm going to, two of the largest pet peeves that I have now are munis and mortgage. I'm going to start with the mortgage. So number one, asset allocation. You know, here's an example. Let's say we have a person that has a half a million dollars in stocks, a half a million dollars in bonds and a $400,000 house with a $200,000 mortgage. So the common framing, the way my industry would like it to be framed is you have a million dollar portfolio. It's 50% stocks, 50% bonds and 200,000 home equity. And I say below any, this person has an $800,000 portfolio that has 500,000 in stocks and 300,000 in bonds and a $400,000 home. Of course, both have the same net worth. And the reason why is that the mortgage is just the opposite of a bond. When you buy a bond or a bond fund, you're lending money. When you take a mortgage out, you're paying a bank principle and interest. So how you finance a house has no impact on the price you ultimately sell it for. And it turns out that borrowing money at two and a half percent and lending it out at one, one and a quarter percent, it's not a great strategy, especially the new tax law makes it even less great where people aren't getting much if any of a tax deduction for, but the fixed income, the bond fund is typically taxable. And you know, most of my industry wants you to compare that two and a half percent mortgage to the overall return of the portfolio. If you think about it, planners that charge assets under management or commission and banks, of course, they all make money from this. And whenever I write about this, I get lots of nasty emails, you know, and my favorite one was only a baboon would do what I recommended. So I went back to him. I said, you know, here's a deal. You know, I'll lend you money at or you lend me money at one percent. I'll lend it back to you at two and a half percent. You can invest it in the market and pocket the difference. So it really is that simple. There is only one reason not to pay off your mortgage if you have high quality fixed income paying less after taxes. And that's because you need it for liquidity to be able to sleep at night. Back to a cap weighted index fund, you know, the argument is sure what Jack created was was great, but there's far more opportunities now. If you buy a cap weighted index fund, you're guaranteed to end up performing the market by the fees, you know, you're just buying more of those overvalued, you know, large cap growth companies. And look, since 1928, the data is compelling that small cap value has trounced the cap weighted portfolio. That's what many in my industry want you to believe. But a cap weighted index fund must beat the average dollar invested in the market. It has to happen that way. Bill Sharpe's arithmetic of active investing shows that it's second greater math. Picking parts of the market or waiting differently, it is active investing. And then finally, you know, I love it when I hear data since 1928, et cetera. Well, no one that I know has been investing in small cap value since 1928. And by the way, it would have been outrageously expensive. So, you know, a lot of this smart beta is just trying to beat the market. What Jack Bogle created, a cap weighted index mutual fund is brilliant. Now, when I teach behavioral finance, I ask people to find patterns out of this. And people are pretty good at saying, hey, the right hemisphere is far more filled in. The bottom right is completely filled in. You know, column C is blank, column D is all filled in, et cetera. And we're really good at finding patterns. This was just a random number generator where each cell had a 50% chance of being filled in. So, you know, how incredibly unusual would it be to find patterns over decades and decades with thousands of stocks, et cetera. So, we now have more than 600 investing factors. And all of these work brilliantly in the past, which would be a great strategy if any of us had a time machine. Mine doesn't work. So, the term smart beta, they're finding some of these factors. And it turns out, dumb beta wasn't so dumb. You know, about six, seven years ago, I'd be at a conference, smart beta factor, tilting, free lunch, et cetera. And you can see how small cap and value drastically underperform the market and especially large cap growth. And the total dollar return is pretty amazing. It will take years and years and years for small cap value to catch up. Why? You know, things change. If we look at what were the 10 most valuable companies in the United States in 1980 and compare them to 40 years later, it's a different world. And we go back to 1900, the majority of the value of the US stock market was in the railroad industry. So, things change and finding patterns of what worked in the past is not the ticket to work going forward. And by the way, in 1981, I went to work for Exxon number three, which later bought Mobile number seven and today isn't in the top 25 combined. And then drivers of stock market returns. You know, why does cap market cap indexing work? You know, if we look at what total stock market did last year, so it's the total return of the vanguard total stock market, including dividend reinvestments and compare it to the same smart value tilting of the same companies that smart beta got less than half of the total return. Why? Because every year there's a handful of companies that really drive the return of the total stock market. Last year, it was Apple, Amazon, Microsoft, etc. And again, if I knew what next year's would be, I would be having my own rocket ship company and going into space before Jeff Bezos. And we have an addiction to prediction. It's a human trait that we hate randomness. So we all have to get forecasts of what's going to outperform next year. And my friend Christine Benz does a great job of getting some of these forecasts together, and all of them, especially when you read the logic, are very, very compelling and even vanguards estimate of future returns. And at least they do it better. They give a range and they do it over a 10-year period. But if you look at what they are saying, US equity and you compare it to the international equity two bars above, they're saying international will outperform or is likely to outperform, which, by the way, I happen to agree with not by the magnitude they're showing. But where I disagree with is if you look at the bar, you know, on the left, they're showing it has less downside risk. And again, if I knew how to get a greater return with less downside risk, I would be a billionaire. And then it's absolutely amazing to me when we look at these predictions that very, very few people go back and look at what their predictions were years earlier. And Jeremy Grantham, he paints a really compelling picture. And it's going to be pretty ugly for stocks, especially US stocks. But that's exactly what he said about seven years ago. So it's very difficult to accept that we don't know. But if you think about it, look at what happened last year. We had a pandemic. We had surging unemployment. We had plunging GDP. We had racial unrest. We had political discourse like I've never seen before. And the US stock market gained 21.03 percent. It really is hard to predict what's going to happen. Interest rates. I'll admit that I don't like interest rates right now, but they've been far worse. You know, the common framing is they're an all time low. They have to go up. It was once so easy to get income from bonds. And we've got to avoid bonds except for things like the ultra short or floating rates. And there are better alternatives. This is how my industry likes to frame it. The ultra short bond fund, which, by the way, Schwad had an ultra short bond fund that completely blew up in 2009, doing the financial crisis. Vanguard has one now that is yielding, I think, 0.45 percent and is in barely investment grade. High yield bonds, a.k.a. junk or floating rates. All floating rate bonds are junk bonds, because guess what? Credit quality companies don't need to issue variable debt. You know, dividend stocks, REITs, I love it. I keep hearing this commercial NRI, a safe 10 percent return. If it were so safe, don't you think pension plans would pour money in? Why would they be, you know, doing a zillion different advertisements for it? Spending a lot of marketing money, master limited partnerships and those denuities, individual bonds rather than bond funds. And these are things that I think are dangerous. The way I tend to look at bonds and interest rates is, first of all, they've been far worse. Go back to 1981. And I tell clients this and I said, do you remember when you could earn if they're this old, a 12 percent return on a CD or a treasure, and they smile. But then I say, think about it, you put $100,000 in, you get $12,000 interest. A third of it went to the state and federal government in taxes. You left with 8000 or an 8 percent return and inflation was about 14 percent. So you lost 6 percent of your spending power. The purpose of fixed income has never been income. The top economists have called the direction of interest rates correctly, meaning up or down 30 percent of the time over the last 50 years. So in other words, they've been wrong 70 percent, even though they had a 50 percent chance of getting it right. And I could explain why that happens. I mean, it's absurd. If we all knew that interest rates were going to go up, then when the Treasury has its auction next week, we would bid less to get a greater return and rates already would have gone up. Now, there are some better ways to earn more. A lot of 401K, 403B plans had negotiated contract with insurance companies that they never dreamed rates would be this low, that that are still paying pretty high TTIAA on their annuity contract. And a lot of these 403Bs, you've got to read all the fine print, but they have a minimum guaranteed 3 percent. The thrift savings plan, the G fund yielding about one and five eights, I wish I had direct, I wish I had access to that. Direct CDs can pay more insured savings account. You know, I still have, believe it or not, a savings account that's yielding one percent and CUA insured versus what? Vanguard or Fidelity or any brokerage are paying 0.01 percent. And then finally, like I said, paying down the mortgage because the mortgage is the inverse of a bond. Next, you know, insurance and inertia. You've probably heard the saying, in fact, it was in my book and probably wrong that Albert Einstein said the power of compounding is the most powerful force in the universe. Jason Zweig has educated me. We don't know for sure, but he probably never would never said that. So I call inertia the most powerful force in the universe. So when it comes to insurance, you know, the industry likes to say, protect yourself and your family no matter what. Buy as much insurance as you want. I love this one. If you love your family, you're going to buy permanent insurance rather than temporary term insurance because 99 percent of term policies will never pay out of dime. And of course, you insure your house. Why not insure your portfolio? Verical annuity, universal life, et cetera. Now, I say baloney, you know, number one, insurance companies are for profit, even not for profit insurance companies. Mutuals have to make a profit. So you insure yourself for only what you cannot afford to lose. So as wealth grows, you know, most insurance needs dissipate. I have no insurance on my cars. No, I'm sorry. Collision or comprehensive. I have liability and umbrella and then permanent insurance. It's an indirect investment. If you think about it, if you buy a whole life policy from Northwestern life, look up Northwestern life, what their balance sheet is in. And you're going to see that they're roughly 85 to 90 percent in fixed income. So you're going to get the return that you could have gotten had you invested it directly minus the commission's expenses and profits. The economics of term versus disability, you know, both are very important. But if you think about it, if you buy a 30 year term policy, you get the best deal over the last few years of that policy because your likelihood of passing away increases as we age. Disability is just the opposite. We typically buy it when we're younger and it pays out to age 65. So every year that you have it, your potential benefit from it gets less and less. I'll have doctors at 63, sometimes 64 years old. They're still paying the premium, which has not gone down. And of course, yes, you insure your house, but you don't insure your house for a decline in value. All right, I said I had two main pet peeves. We talked about mortgage. The other are our munis. And by the way, I own some of the Vanguard Intermediate Muni bond fund. So I'm not totally against munis, but I'm against putting a whole lot in munis. And I'm absolutely against the way my industry, even Vanguard, I hate to say it, will show the return of a muni bond. So the common frame is munis provide a safe tax for your return during Great Depression. The loss of muni bonds is only 0.5 percent. Munis are an inefficient market where we're buying the bonds themselves yields more than twice what you could get on a Vanguard muni bond fund. And then a recent portfolio was yielding over 5 percent federally tax-free. What's wrong with all that? Just about everything. Number one, munis, depending upon the type of calculation, whether you want to like assume La La Land returns of these pensions or more realistic returns, they have about two to six trillion dollars with a fund-funded pension and health care liabilities. Most companies got rid of defined benefit plans in favor of defined contribution for 1K, 4, 3B type of plans, but not so for states and local governments. So munis could have a new correlation to stocks so that if stocks don't do very, very well over the next 10 years, as the baby boomers have retired and those payments are going out, there could be a lot of stress on those munis. It's possible the government bails them out, but that's a lot of money. And then finally, you know, when it comes to you know, looking at the sorry, that the amount of people that have retired, there weren't these baby boomers that had retired back during the Great Depression. And then framing the return on principle, it should be completely illegal. So here's the way the trick works. And I've actually met with the executive director and all of her senior staff on this who are really nice people. But I think what's going on is just tricking people. So I buy a bond, I sell you a bond. It has a five dollar coupon and we buy it for one hundred and twelve dollars a piece. So the yield is four point four six percent. Now, this bond is going to mature or be called in three years at one hundred dollars. So roughly that twelve dollars divided by the three years, roughly four dollars of that five dollars is just return of your own principle. Your statement is going to show that as income. So the actual yield is point eight nine percent. And of course, me as your advisor who's building this bond portfolio, I may charge you point five percent or one percent of that. So your actual nominal yield may be negative. And am I exaggerating? I just looked at a portfolio that had an average coupon of little over five percent. The yield to worse, which is really the best case scenario. The yield to worse is a calculation of if the bond is called. And why it's a best case scenario is that if interest rates do go up, those bonds are going to be called and you're going to be stuck earning a lower than market rate. So the manager fee was point three five percent. So the net yield of this client was point five percent. In addition, spreads can easily be over one percent on a muni. So this stocks, there are national markets and such where they trade, but not so in the bond market. And munis can have that one percent spread. The largest spread I've ever seen, which you can actually see and until the bond is closed, the client came to me, had a ten point two five percent spread on a bond he had bought. And by the way, that client was a very senior attorney with the Securities and Exchange Commission. Have had no clue this was going on. What to do with the expensive bond fund? I'm not going to go through the expensive dog fund. You have to do a calculation of what the tax consequences are to getting out versus what the tax consequences are to staying in, because they may be doing a lot of trading and the like. You have to look at what the life expectancy of the person is. You know, will the step up basis still be there? But, you know, it's a fairly complex analysis. And usually when I look at a portfolio, it's not a let's get out of everything. It's a what to get out of what to stay in. And when you have an expensive dog fund for gosh sakes, don't don't let dividend reinvestments keep going. You're just buying more of that same fund. Financial advisor, I'm a certified financial planner. You should stick with me because I'm a fiduciary. I'm legally obligated to put your interests ahead of mine. The CFP board enforces a higher standard. I'm thoroughly vetted and look for advisors who have been publicly recognized. That's the pitch. The reality is the fiduciary standard isn't enforced. It isn't enforced by the SEC state regulators and the CFP board for many years. I've given data to Kevin Keller, who is the CEO of the CFP board, showing that the only actions that they take come after that of other clients, other regulators. You know, I once helped the client file a complaint on. You know, a double dipping where the CFP with fiduciary duty could make up his mind, whether to charge a commission or percentage of assets going on. So he did both. The total fees were 5.29 percent. CFP board, first they lost the complaint and then they ultimately found no wrong doing. Jason Zweig, I don't know if you read some of his columns a couple of years ago, exposing hypocrisy of people that have had huge CFPs that have had huge findings by FINRA and the like, but have completely clean records on the Let's Make a Plan CFP website. And some of these prestigious awards, I thought were for sale for any person, but it turns out turns out you don't have to be a person. So in my office is a beautiful plaque of one of America's top financial planners and the Consumers Research Council of America's prestigious address is Pennsylvania Avenue on Washington DC. Only I got it for my dog, Max Tailwagger. And, you know, he also I sent in an application for him to be one of America's top financial planners for doctors, which he was also approved for. And I was too cheap to spend the money on that. I deeply regret that decision. Poor Max, he passed away about a month ago. All right, next Social Security. And by the way, I presented the slide at the White Code Investor last month with or last March with Mike Piper standing just a few feet from me. He's actually OK with this. Let me explain why I took Social Security at age 62, which Mike Piper and most people would say that was a wrong thing to do, but I only did it in my mind. So mentally, I'm receiving $2,400 a month. And what I'm really doing is buying an inflation-adjusted deferred annuity at a 40 percent discount over what you could have bought it from an insurance company a few years ago, but now the insurance companies aren't even offering that inflation-adjusted annuity. Why? Because the actuaries are way too afraid of inflation and there's no way to hedge that. But what I tell clients that it's OK to spend that money if they needed it, take it out of their own portfolio, because what they're really doing is buying that inflation-adjusted government-protected annuity. So the best Social Security calculator by far comes from that guy that makes me look bad Mike Piper. It's absolutely brilliant. Having been an officer for a couple of insurance companies, he doesn't just assume that we're going to die in a certain year that a 63-year-old male is going to live 26 years, whatever. He's doing what an actuary would do, looking at the probabilities of passing away each year. And he gives this away. It's just absolutely, it's a brilliant calculator. Tax strategies, when you retire, again, it's ironic that a very young guy, Mike Piper, really is the world's leading expert on some of this. But there's tax gain harvesting. You can take capital gains at a 0% tax bracket when your income is low and you're delaying Social Security before the RMD, and that's just tax gain harvesting. And you don't have to wait 31 days, by the way, only for tax. There's a tax loss wash sale, not a tax gain wash sale. Partial Roth conversions. Certainly, if you're at a low tax bracket, I think, in general, try to use up that 12% marginal federal tax bracket. Tax deferred withdrawals managing to marginal tax rates. Again, that 12% Roth conversions. Yes, I invented the Roth. And if anyone believes that, I've got some motion for a property in Minnesota. Well, you do have 10,000 lakes. But anyways, I'm a believer in tax diversification. You can never predict what Congress is going to do. That's harder than predicting the market. So, a Roth conversion for tax diversification, what's the size of your Roth money compared to your tax deferred and taxable money? Is the current marginal tax bracket low? The higher your income in retirement, the less attractive it is to do the conversions. The more burdensome of the RMDs, the greater the argument to do a Roth, and then you really should have some after-tax money to pay the taxes on the conversion. Before 59 and a half, you'd actually be hit up with a penalty if you paid for it with the IRA money. You've got to look at whether your state has a tax exemption for very wealthy people. There can be some estate tax planning benefits to do the conversion. Now, one of the things I don't have to consider is what we think Congress is going to do because that's unpredictable in my opinion. Financial wealth, the common framing, is we measure net worth at least in the US in dollars. So someone with, if I have $10 million and you only have a million dollars, I would be 10 times richer in you. And of course, there's no quick way to get rich. And I think all of that is wrong. I would measure your net worth in years. So it's your total net worth divided by how much a year you need to support your life. So who's richer? I have $10 million, but I have a very wealthy lifestyle. I need $5 million a year. To support my lifestyle. I've got two years worth of financial freedom. You're only worth a million dollars, but you can be happy with $50,000 a year. You have 20 years worth of financial freedom because we can't take it with us. You're 10 times wealthier than me and probably a hundred times happier, by the way, if I needed $5 million a year to support my lifestyle. And you really can't get rich quickly by cutting down what you're spending. Now, all sorts of frugal strategies are out there and things like the Starbucks factor, not buying as much pop. Those are things that can cut down expenditures, but the gorilla in the room is really the car. And I'm gonna brag, I've been driving millionaire cars all my life. My last car was a Pontiac Grand Prix that I bought mostly with GM credit card points. My current car is an eight year old Chevy Volt, getting well over 250 miles per gallon, running mostly on electricity. But I pride myself on having the worst car in the neighborhood. The goal is not to look at the goal of a car. And my opinion is to be safe and get you from A to B. And my Chevy Volt gets me from A to B, maybe eight seconds less than the Lamborghini. So finally, money and happiness. If you think about it, as Bill Bernstein says, when you've won the game quit playing, and he doesn't mean get out of stocks completely, he just means take risk off the table. So if somebody is close to winning the game, if their money goes up by 70%, they're gonna be marginally happier. If Jeff Bezos makes another billion dollars, I'm sure he'll smile, but it's not gonna change his lifestyle. But losing money causes a lot of unhappiness. And we take these risk profile questionnaires, I think they're worse than worthless. We've really gotta think about, I'm sorry the market didn't perform as we thought. You can't buy that vacation house, you can't send your kids to college, the expense of college, et cetera. Second, greater portfolio. Again, that's the same as Taylor's three fund portfolio. The aggressive is 90% stocks, moderate 60% stocks and conservative 30% stocks. They all performed roughly the same over this period. But yet we as investors, even vocal heads, by the way, are predictably irrational. And I had several vocal heads call me up in March of last year, this time really is different. We've never had a pandemic before. One sold millions and millions of dollars of stocks just at the wrong time. So buy and hold is good, but buy hold and rebalance is better. And our human nature is probably not likely to change significantly going forward. So I'm a believer in setting that asset allocation and sticking with it no matter what, which the book noise is brilliant. And a computer generated asset allocation, a robo advisor, didn't know the pandemic was going on and did all the right things. So that's what I have for you guys. Wonderful, thank you, Alan. If there's questions, I didn't see a few came in. Feel free to chat them. We are monitoring the chat. Meanwhile, I'm gonna switch gears here a little bit and switch back to Mel. Mel, I call him the first vocal head, but I should probably call him the first or second vocal head based on who I just saw coming to the chat room here. So Mel, can you give us some history lessons on the diehards, how that came into being, the move to bogal heads? How did we get 100 people here from across the country? I'll call on yourself, bogal heads. Hope you're muted, Mel. I don't know if Diane, if you could unmute him. Actually, I'm not sure who created the phrase bogal heads, but initially it was a derogatory term. Really? Yeah, there was no diehard or bogal head forum, Morningstar initially back in 1998. And the posters, the bogal heads who were posting were considered outlaws or bad guys or whatever from the other people who were trying to figure out all the ways to beat the market and so forth. So the bogal heads were asking for their own forum and Morningstar finally relented and created, but they were afraid to use the term bogal heads and to call us bogal heads because it was used as a derogatory term. So instead they called us the vanguard diehards, diehards because we wouldn't give up asking for our own forum. And they created, they put a subtitle on the forum which was Bogal Heads Unite, talk about your favorite fan, your favorite fun company. So that was their way of calling us bogal heads but not making it really a bogal heads forum. So it was called the vanguard diehards because of that and it stayed that way all the time that we were on Morningstar. They were definitely afraid that Jack would be upset by the term bogal heads too but because again it was used as a derogatory term and Jack and other vanguard people used to monitor our forum from time to time. So they knew Jack would see that. So therefore that's how we became the vanguard diehards. Okay, when was that? Was that about 98, 97, do you remember? 1998, what was that, 20 something years ago? Yeah, 23 years ago, well. So then the move to bogalheads.org happened probably right around the early 2000s? 2007. Okay. Again, that was a real fluke. Morningstar's software was really out of date and we kept asking for them to update the forum software and they kept saying they were going to do it, but they never did. They just dragged their feet. So one of the bogal heads as a joke, set up bogalheads.org, well, the forum, what's now bogalheads.org, set it up as a joke to show Morningstar, this isn't rocket science. I can do it for nothing in five minutes. So he set up this dummy forum and all of a sudden a couple of bogalheads found it. They started post, they said, hey, there's a new bogalheads forum. So now I went over and I took a look at it and I went, oh my God, this is our future because we control this thing now and we're not beholding the Morningstar. Even though Morningstar was very good to us, I don't mean to downgrade that, but the guy who set it up, set it up as a joke and he was just gonna kill it. He just wanted to do this to show Morningstar what could be done. And I said, no, don't let it go. We need to hang on to this. So he didn't wanna host it and I had no way of hosting it. That's not my lane. So I got ahold of Alex and Larry to see about hosting this and that's how we took it over. And then I was member number seven and then the word got out on Morningstar forum. Hey, Mel's over there. So a number of people who thought that this gave it legitimacy started coming over but Taylor, who I understand is on this now, Taylor was reluctant to join because he felt an allegiance to Joe Mansquito, the chairman of Morningstar who had been very good to us. And so did I really. So I kept trying to get Taylor to come over. He wouldn't come over. Finally I said, Taylor, we'll make a deal with you. You and I out of respect then for Joe will continue to post on both forums. So Taylor agreed and that was our deal. Taylor came over and of course then the floodgates because now it was totally legitimate, the floodgates. And for a number of, I don't remember how long it was, but for a while Alex and Larry put up a split screen which showed posts on the Morningstar forum on the one side and posts on the diehards forum on the other side. So people could go there and choose where they wanted to, which threads they wanted to see. But what happened is after a while there was nothing on the Morningstar side and everything was on the bowhead side. So we stopped that. And that's basically how the forum got started. It started as a joke. Fortunately, I realized that this was our future. And obviously that's the case now. The number of posts we get, the number of hits we get, the number of members we have are all just through the route. So it's been quite a ride. And Taylor and I are still posting on there. Did you have in your while the streams the idea that you'd go from that fake almost protest forum back in 2002 to what it is right now? I mean, wouldn't it have done on you that? This thing is out of control in a great way. When did that dawn on you? And it still is. For instance, it was maybe a week or so ago, a couple of weeks ago, I just opened the latest chapter in Germany. We have something like 90 chapters now, 10 of which are, I think about 10 are in foreign countries. It's just mind blowing when you consider that we were just a few guys on mornings are trying to help other investors. And now we have this worldwide organization. We have bestselling books. We have national conferences. And of course, being connected to Jack Bogle was really the key to our success. I mean, how many people have written books and can't get anybody to even look at them? And here we have a publisher calling and asking us to write books. And I hung up on them a number of times. I thought it was a hoax because I know that publishers just don't call you and ask you to write a book when you're an unknown. But yeah, so it was writing the book and then having it come out and then becoming one of the top 10 books selected by Amazon for 2006. Of course, all of that stuff just gave us more publicity. When we had our first conference in Miami, there's a backstory to this, which I'd like to share. The Taylor and I made a post in 2000 or 1999, I guess it was a Thanksgiving. Seeing happy Thanksgiving, here's what I'm thankful for. And then everybody was chiming in and Taylor chimed in and said, I'm thankful for my wife and my kids and all that. But I'm thankful to Jack Bogle, also thankful to Jack Bogle because I live in the house of Jack Bogle. Well, again, as I said, Jack monitored our, watched our porn from time to time and he saw that. And he sent a handwritten note to us asking if there was any interest in getting together with him at a non-resort place. Well, for us, that was like getting an invitation to audience with the Pope or an invitation to the White House. So Taylor and I tried to figure out how we were going to pull this off. And I was a snowbird at that time, to spend the winters in Florida. Taylor knew that. And Jack was going to be the keynote speaker at the Miami Herald Making Money seminar. So Taylor said, hey Mel, why don't we use this as an opportunity to try to get together with Jack? So I said, well, that's great, we'll do that. So I got in touch with the Miami Herald people and I asked them if they could give us a room somewhere where we could get together with Jack for an hour or two for lunch. And they shoot us away like a bunch of groupies, which actually we were. And they said, no, we've got Jack all tied up, we don't have time. So you'll have to just go about your business. So anyway, I called Jack and said, hey, they said we can't get together. And he said, well, hey, I'll go wherever you want me. So now we made a post, we only had about 20 something people because it was very short notice. So we decided to hold it at Taylor's 35th floor condo overlooking Biscayne Bay. And we hired a chef and a maid and had this nice thing with Jack. But in the meantime, the Miami Herald got word that we're having this event with Jack and they want to cover it. So they come hat in hand and said, Mel, can we send a reporter and a photographer? Well, instead of being jerks like they were us, we said, sure. So they send the photographer and the reporter and we ended up with a front page story in the business section of Miami Herald carried over into the end, inside. So all of these things just gave us a little more publicity and it became a little better known. The next year, Jason's wife who's now with Wall Street Journal was with Money Magazine. Then Jason wanted to come and cover our conference and bring a photographer. So we ended up with a six, eight page spread in Money Magazine with all kinds of photos and that. So again, more exposure. And then the book and it just continued to build and it still continues to this day. So yeah, it's just mind blowing when you think of where we started and where it is now. No, it's amazing. Just this morning, I did some metrics here and then just said, we 703 people were online when I looked right before the meeting here. There's been 5,941,000 posts since that forum was created and there's 109,000 members that have actually registered. It probably gets 10 times more traffic than people that don't register. So there's probably over a million people I'm sure have hit that page in the last year. So that's amazing, isn't it? Yeah, it is. And when anytime I can see the back numbers and anytime you see 700 people online, any for members, there's usually about 10 guests for each member that's online. Because they can read, people can read anytime they want, they don't have to sign up. You only sign up if you want to make a post. So there are more and more visitors and they're from all around the world, which is amazing too. You know, personally, I used to have to look for like, what's the expense ratio of ETI, Boglehead. And I put that on there. Now I don't have to put Boglehead when I look at my Google results or the top five links are going to Boglehead wiki or somewhere. It's just awesome. Yeah, it's been an amazing ride and I have all those conferences. We thought Taylor and I thought that to get together with Jack in Miami was going to be a one-time off. And then everybody's asking on the forum, when's the next one? When's the next one? Oh my God. Well, let me ask you a question. When is the next one? This year is not going to be an in-person. It'll probably be a virtual. I have to say in the beginning, I am no longer running the conferences. I'm not on the team anymore. But from what I understand, it's going to be virtual this year. Next year will be a conference. And you know, initially we moved the conferences all around the country. But then when Jack's health started deteriorating, we stayed in Philly. There's no reason to stay in Philly now because Jack is no longer with us. So it's probably going to be moved around the country again. It's probably going to be a lot longer. There's different team running the operation. And I think their goal or their idea is to have this big deal. I tried to purposely keep it smaller so that it would be intimate and people could talk to Jack and Bill Bernstein and Rick and the other people there. So now I don't know where it's going to be, but we'll have to see when they finally figure out. Because they want it to be somewhere where people can connect direct light without having to go through a number of transfers and so forth. So that's all in the works. And I really am not privy to what's going on other than I know it's going to be a big one. And in 2022. Well, that sounds great. Thanks for that update. And the last pipe in. Yeah, the goal is a October 2022 larger conference at a location yet to be determined. Good to know. Getting back to Booksmell. So there's been three successful books. Is there any, are they keep calling? Is there going to be a fourth in the series? Do you know anything about that? Well, first of all, I have to tell you that our publisher is Wally. And Wally publishes the Dummies books, as you know the Dummies books. Well, the Dummies books, each one is written by a specialist in the topic. But Wally figured that the Bogo Heads was going to be a series like the Dummies books. And of course, there are only a few of us writing these things. So it takes nine months to a year to write a book. And it's- By the way, if you two have tailors doing things, do you still have a Bogo Heads book in Chinese? Well, we do. Our books have been converted. And I had boxes of books show up on my doorstep. And I had no idea what they were. I thought somebody got the wrong shipment here. And it turns out it was one of our versions. We have several versions in Chinese. And but yes, Taylor's book will probably end up the latest book, the Three Fun Portfolio, will probably end up in Chinese because our other books have. But over time, I've been kind of busy. I worked with Taylor on his book, but it was Taylor's book. That's his baby. I also worked with a couple of Bogo Heads doctors who have a new book coming out. It should be out any day now. And it's specifically geared towards doctors and the financing. So I've been busy with that. I've been busy with all this stuff. But I keep feeling that any day we're going to get that call from Wally saying, hey, how about another book? Or else asking us to update, go to the third edition. And I called Michael ahead of time to ask him, Michael, are you going to be up to another book? Because I got a feeling I'm going to get a call. So sure enough, a day after I talked to Michael, I get a call from Wally. And they said, Mel, Barnes and Noble has got this huge, wants this huge order of your book. But they want a paperback version. And we don't have a paperback version of the second edition. So he said, Mel, we need something for the cover. And I said, well, you've got Jack Bogle wrote the forward. So just pull something out of there and put it on the cover, one of Jack's pithy sayings, the Bogle Heads, whatever. And so we do have a paperback coming out. And they'll be available at some point at Barnes and Noble. But I really have a political career now. I got elected in 2016 as a city council member. 2018 got reelected in 2020. I became vice mayor. So I'm helping run a city, helping other people with their books, doing work on the forum. I am pretty busy. And I just don't know whether I have time for another book. Well, I'm not talking about busy. That sounds incredibly busy. Before we get back to Alan, Mel, you knew Jack really well. Is there one thing you could tell us about him that maybe a lot of people don't know about him? Well, I don't know that everyone knows that Jack had a heart replacement. And because of the heart replacement, he had to take drugs to keep the anti-rejection drugs. But the anti-rejection drugs cause all kinds of things that are minor to you and me turn into major deals when he would get an infection. Jack used to end up in the hospital a lot. And of course, our planning was nine months long for the conferences. And Jack was, of course, the focal point. Well, I would get calls. I got calls a number of times in the summer saying Jack is in the hospital. And we don't think he's going to be able to make the conference. And things aren't good. So we had a number of scares over the years with Jack's health. And Jack had attended, despite being in the hospital, he would get out and he would get better and he would make the conferences. But it was real close to our Dallas Fort Worth conference when I got the call that Jack is not going to be able to make it. So we had to go to plan B and create a different agenda and get different speakers and so forth, which we did. But at the conference, Kevin, who was Jack's assistant, said, Jack wants to call on your cell phone from the hospital. And he wants you to hold your phone up to the microphone and speak to the Bogo heads. So I said, well, that's going to get squeals and everything else. So I quickly got a phone line and put in the hotel in the conference room, had it wired to the speakers in the conference room. And sure enough, Jack calls at the appointed time and proceeded to speak to his Bogo heads. And there wasn't a dry eye in the place. And we were trying to figure out how Jack even got his cell phone in intensive care. But anyway, so since Jack spoke to us over the phone, we considered that his attendance and not break his perfect attendance record. So Jack's attendance record is still intact because of that speaking to the Bogo heads over from the hospital. So he loved his Bogo heads. They meant so much to him. And of course, he did to us too. So he was really special. Yeah, well, those are great stories. Thanks so much for that, Mel. And now I don't know how to awkwardly pivot away from those great stories back to finances, but I'm just going to plunge into some of these questions. So for Allen or Mel, feel free to jump in here too. Bond portion of the portfolio, should it be total bond market or is it short term bonds based on today's environment or a mix? And if it's a mix, what ratio is the question that came in? You want me to take that? Yeah, yeah. Maybe Allen, if you could take that, that'd be great. Sure. Total bond is my core bond fund. I also use some direct CDs that have easy early withdrawal penalty, but all of my fixed income is high credit quality. The thing about a short term bond is it's kind of like cash. You're guaranteed to underperform the inflation and lose spending power. So in general, I believe in an intermediate bond fund, especially because our yield curve is positively sloped right now, I don't have the guts to go long term. And then short term, like I said, it's practically guaranteed to underperform. And you're better off doing something like a, there's several savings accounts, FDIC or NCUA insured paying between 0.5 and 0.85. So I would argue that's better than a Vanguard short term bond index fund, which I'm guessing is paying somewhere around 0.45, 0.5% and has some risk. Well, I agree with Allen on the investment grade. I think that duration has to be considered. So for most people, the intermediate is going to work. But for short term needs, I like a short term investment grade bond at Vanguard. But one thing that isn't mentioned, and Allen touched on inflation. And one way right now to warm up is I bonds. So I think there's a place for in most portfolios for I bonds. There is the purchase limit of 10,000 per person per year. But you can get one for the husband, one for the wife. You can get 5,000 back in your tax return. And if you have trust, you can also get another 10,000. So it doesn't take long to accumulate a fair amount of inflation protection with I bonds. I haven't heard you hot the I bonds for 20 years now, I think, now. They never go a little flavor. Yeah, well, the thing is, is that the people who backed up the truck, when I suggested they do, are sitting on those 3033436 real-year bonds that are paying 7% now. They are sitting looking for that. That's amazing to me as a little interest environment for people that took your advice, I guess, back in the day. Shifting to capital gains tax, it's been possibly doubling for high earners at some future point. And if that's an eventuality, is there anything we could be doing now to prepare for a higher capital gains in the future? For either Allen or Mel. Mel, do you want to take it? I'm happy to take it. I think that's money. You know, the only thing harder than. I'm sorry, go ahead, Allen. The only thing harder than predicting the market is predicting what politicians will do. Yeah, in fact, we don't even allow discussions of public regulations on the forum, simply because people might make a bad decision based on something that may never happen. So you have to go with the law the way it is. The current Biden proposal is for those with over a million dollars of income. And the current Biden proposal has it retroactive to April 28. Now, again, I don't predict everything in that proposal, I think, is unlikely to go through, especially in our current political climate. But I mean, if that we're going to happen, if you were going to sell it while you were alive, then yes, you would want to tax gain harvest. But I think that would be an incredibly dangerous thing to do. So what I'm telling clients is do nothing right now. OK, good. Follow up to that with inflation starting to perk up. There's a question around any proposed changes to the portfolios is now a time to get more into tips if you haven't been historically or with inflation perking up. What do you recommend for changes to S.L.C.H? Now, do you want me to take it? Yeah, go ahead. OK, absolutely nothing. Inflation has perked up. I think I mentioned that I, along with the top economists in the world, have a horrible track record of predicting interest rates. And those interest rates are tied to inflation. So certainly we have had some greater inflation in the last few months, whether or not it will continue the bond market is actually saying we don't think so. The way I learned economics is that more money chasing the same amount of goods and services causes a lot of inflation. But Japan has been printing more money than we have for decades in fighting deflation. So I would resist the urge to try to predict inflation. The eyeballs are certainly better than the tips. I think I looked at the Vanguard Intermediate Tips Fund. It had a negative yield of something like 1.65%, meaning that if we had 2% inflation, then that's going to yield 0.35%. So CDs that have easy early withdrawal penalties, I bonds to the extent that it can be a material part of your portfolio, I think are ways to go. And again, that's why it wouldn't go long term on a bond fund, a long duration. I think Alan touched on the thing that's important to me and should be important to all their investors is that at the current time, tips are not attractive to me simply because they have the negative yield guarantee to get less money back than you put in. So at this point, I think the first 10, 20, 30, 35,000, whatever that you can afford to buy an I bond or the place to go for inflation protection now. And even with the current ones that they are selling with the zero fixed rate, you're still getting 3.54%, which is nothing to sneeze at. It's probably the most attractive rate that's out there that's risk-free. So my first 10, 20 or 30,000 would be in I bond. Okay, good to know. And I hesitate to ask this question with the room full of bullets because I think I know the answer that someone had suggested or asked. What do you think of cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin, Dogecoin, et cetera? Do they have a place in mass allocation? Yeah, in the trash. I own a little bit of Bitcoin, but only because I had to write about it and I wanted to actually make sure that what I was being told on how you buy it works. And you know, Bitcoin, I'm not convinced it's gonna be worth zero. I think the odds are it'll be worth zero, but it does disintermediate the financial services industry and solve something. Dogecoin like the Bogleheads was started as a joke and it just absolutely amazes me that it has significant value. I don't think it's gonna be as successful as Mel and Taylor, what you guys created with the Bogleheads. Well, I have a question for somebody who might have an answer. How do you buy or sell something? Not the coin itself, but with the coin. When the value is changing dramatically every day, every hour. So you have something for sale for 10,000 and somebody is gonna give you 10,000 in Bitcoin and five minutes later, it's worth 8,000. How do you set a price either as a buyer or a seller when the value is constantly changing? That's the question I would ask for something to be effective, you have to have stability. And right now you have no stability and I don't know if you're ever gonna have it. Yeah, another question came in, I think based on a slide from your talk, Alan would be, can you please explain why dividend stocks would not be a good investment? Well, dividends are value stocks and they may outperform, they may underperform, they have grossly underperformed. I mean, there are certain really safe dividend stocks like Eastman Kodak, General Motors, more recently GE that are just blue chips that are gonna pay forever. And that's just not true. And if you think of dividends, they're very tax inefficient because you would rather not pay less taxes on the dividends. So I'm not totally against dividend stocks. In fact, I believe in growth, I believe in large cap, mid cap, small cap. The diversified portfolio is guaranteed to beat most investors. And you're far better off, by the way, controlling when you wanna recognize the gains by selling the long-term capital gains than the dividends. So I'm against a dividend tilted portfolio. I believe in everything. Taylor's refund portfolio is all you need. That's a question from down below. And I think this question was asked, not knowing Taylor would be here. So people are asking if you're a fan of a year, the two-fund portfolio from Jack Bogle, I think it was, is it VT everything and then told about in the U.S. or the three-fund from Taylor or the four-fund portfolio from Ray Ferry. I guess, are you a fan of that? Are the two-fund, the three-fund or the four-fund was a question out there. And I think you already gave your answer, Alan, you said the three-fund, but is there a space or one much you can say a two-fund or a four-fund? Well, one can have a single fund, a target date portfolio or a fund of funds that Vanguard offers and the like. Let's face it, I've been wrong. Jack Bogle has been right on international continuing to underperform. Yeah. Again, go ahead now. There's a very long thread going right now on the argument, either the international yes or no. And there are, I mean, it's really contentious. The people are dug in one way or the other. And it might be interesting to follow because there are a lot of good thoughts on both sides. So there's not necessarily a right or wrong. There's what's right for you. And one of the things that I have posted on that thread was that I think that it's whatever you're comfortable with. If you are gonna not be a buy and holder when international goes down, it tanks, you don't believe in it, that's your choice. I do believe that Jack was right and has been proven right. Personally, I think that for people who are a little queasy but that do one international, I think that what Alan touched on, a life strategy or a target date fund might be appropriate because one of the advantages of those is that you don't see the different element going down within that portfolio. You just look at the whole. And if the whole is doing okay, you're gonna hang in there even though it's the US that's doing great and international is not doing so good, your portfolio is still doing okay. So I think that that's a good reason to hold for certain investors a life strategy or a target date fund. And it harnesses the power of inertia automatically and balances for you. And when it comes to international yes or no, my belief is that it's more important to be consistent. Back in 2007 when international had tripled when US stocks had only doubled, I saw a lot of portfolios very heavily invested in international now I'm seeing portfolios very light and international and performance chasing is alive and well and we need to be consistent. I typically go for a third and there's some comfort between somewhere between Vanguard's 40% and Jack Bogle's 0%. Yeah, sounds good. There's a question here from Adele al-Madi from Bahrain. So that's why I love this Zoom stuff. I don't think he'd be coming from Bahrain to Minnesota to visit us in person, but here we can communicate and Zoom. And he had asked around, doesn't a small cap value diversify because the total stock market is all, like you said, growth and large cap dominating now. And then there's another question I'll combine with this around the Fama French three-mile tilting to small cap and value just not even wondering an over-weighted large cap growth environment. What do you think about tilting for diversification? Whenever you pick parts of the market, you are not diversifying, you're doing the opposite of diversifying, you are speculating. I believe in the Fama French three-factor model, which says that it's compensation for taking on more risk that it's not a free lunch. So I choose to do an overall portfolio which is far more tax efficient, far lower in fees. So I certainly believe that in the very long run, certainly almost it's impossible for small cap value to underperform as much as it has in the last five or 10 years. And I do think the odds are it's going to do better, but it's going to be a whole lot more volatile. And if you think about it, if things go wrong in our economy, it's smaller companies and value companies that are weaker, and the plunge could be a whole lot worse. Have I ever mentioned the Taylor-Larimore three-fund portfolio is what I recommend? That's right. I'd just like to let Jeff and everyone know that the last questioner from Bahrain was probably from one of the latest chapters that we opened up, but we do have a Bowez local chapter in Bahrain now. Yeah. That's so great, such a small world. Here's kind of a nice standalone question for someone. What's your recommended safe withdrawal rate for a 65 year old who just retired in today's environment? To me, anything above 2% might be speculative, but so much depends on your family history or life expectancy based on your own medical conditions and everything else. I think that 2% you could live forever. 3% might be okay. I think you have to look at the market valuations now. It's very high. We're overdue for a correction. Whether we'll get it or not is when we'll get it is a question, excuse me, is obviously an unknown. But if somebody wanted to be safe in the early years, I would say 2% is about as safe as you can get. 3% might work for you, 4% might work for you. If you've got a shorter life expectancy, that's everything is a guess at this point. Because it would be really great if we knew how long we were gonna live. But then we would probably have a heart attack. I'd say started at 3%. If and only if you're an incredibly low-cost disciplined investor. And then there are things that you can do such as, and David Blanchett who just left Morningstar has done some brilliant work on this. If you can kind of carve out whether discretionary and non-discretionary what you would cut if the market doesn't perform well. And then how much of your income is guaranteed either through social security or pensions that those can then adjust from that 3% what you could safely spend. I'm not a believer in if the market doesn't do well, you don't increase your expenditure because then over time, you're cutting your lifestyle. Okay, good. Shifting gears here a little bit. There's some discussion on the chatter on global bonds. And I know Vanguard, I think, introduced a global or international bond fund and they're putting it in and I think some of their target retirement funds, maybe I'm speaking out of context here, but what do you think about global or international bonds and is there a spot for that in a US as allocation? I'll let Alan take that because no, I don't like that. Yeah, I was lobbied very heavily when Vanguard came out with it to write about it. And I did write about it, but I kind of gave it a ho-hum sort of recommendation. And the argument is good that if you look at US stocks, international stocks, US bonds, international bonds, the largest part of the pie is international bonds. But international bonds are more expensive. I agree with Vanguard's hedging of them. And if you look at the purpose of the bond portfolio, it's the shock absorber, the stable value, the what you're gonna have to live on. And let's face it, most of my bonds, the vast majority are backed by the US government. And if the US government goes out of business and the portfolio is gonna fail, so I don't see an incredible need to buy the international bond. If you're gonna buy it, I would buy the Vanguard Total International Bond Fund. And if clients wanna have them, I'm happy to let them keep it. What would be the top percentage of your bonds you'd recommend in international bonds if you decide to go that way? You know, I've never been asked that question, so I'm gonna, on the fly, I say, I certainly wouldn't go more than 10% of a bond portfolio. And again, it's high credit quality and it's hedged. So it's not a bad thing, but the fees are just a bit higher. Okay. I think one of the other, the important things too is for investors should understand what they're buying. And I don't think that they would necessarily understand international bonds. So I just am not a fan of them. Yeah, okay. This one came in specifically for Alan. Can you give us some examples of war hanging fruit mentioned in his articles, recommendations for the current environment? Well, you know, like I mentioned, I'm earning 1% on my cash versus leaving it out of Vanguard or Fidelity at 0.01%. There are other things like, if you have access to that TIA traditional with a 3% guarantee or the G fund, if you're in, you know, the only thing that that makes less sense than an expensive active fund is an expensive index fund, which is guaranteed to underperform. But low hanging fruit is something that I are paying down the mortgage, getting that 2.5% return. Those are, you know, I define low hanging fruit as increasing your return without increasing any risk. So in other words, you're guaranteed, virtually guaranteed to do better with low hanging fruit. Don't go with Mercedes-Benz financing, you know, paying 2% on your cash because it's not even backed by Mercedes-Benz much less a government. Don't get greedy on those things. Those aren't low hanging fruit. The master limited partnerships, all those things that were just safe. It's like a toll road, you know, the oil has to flow through it, et cetera. Those are not low hanging fruit. Those are taking on a great amount of risk. Okay, great. Someone asked if you have your own website and Lady Geek posted to the Wiki on your name and also there to be dull.com is where you can see Allen's blog posts and so on. The last question, because we're coming up on our time limit here, it's gonna be a little, maybe a strange question, but why not add with a strange question? What have you learned? And this is, I think, I'd like both of you to answer if you could. What have you learned in your life outside of personal finance that most helps you with personal finance? That's a good one. Without any warning, just throw it out there for you guys. I think for me, I learned my lesson in finance very, very early and my parents had gone through the depression and they didn't trust banks. So I saw the bank, the Lindar Bank at home and I saw my mother budgeting. Of course, my father worked very hard. My mother was a homekeeper, but she had an envelope for every expense and that was the budget. So when dad cashed his check, he would give her the money and she would put so much in the envelope for food, so much for the electricity, so much for the house and so forth. So I saw that managing your money, and if you got to an envelope, you didn't have any money left, you had to readjust the stuff that you had already put in the previous envelopes. So I learned that it was very important to manage your money and even when you didn't have a lot of it. And also I learned that you have to save up for things that you want and instead of using credit. When I was in the Marine Corps, I came home at 18 to buy a car and my dad had to co-sign for me and he had no credit because they had paid cash all his life. So I learned that when you want something, you save for it, you work for it. So to me, that was a very important lesson that I learned and live all your needs. I think it's lesson number one. That's great. Thanks for that. That's all good advice. You should write a book or something. I was kidding. I said you should write a book about that advice and then I'm like, oh, yeah. Any last shots on your side, Elm? Yeah, I would say like every bogal head, I was born wired to be frugal. And buying things on sale was a good thing and when it comes to investing, those low fees and the rebalancing of buying after a market plunge, which I will admit was hard as heck for me to do last March or every time I have to do that. But yeah, it's those simple things that, being frugal, buying things on sale, it works in investing as well. It's not exciting, but it just works. Yep. 300% Alan. That's great. I just wanted to kind of wrap this up and thank Taylor for popping in there. We're honored with your presence, Taylor. It's great to see you. We'll see you on the forum and Mel. And Alan specifically, thanks for your time and energy to this. This has been an awesome Minnesota bogal head meeting. We're thrilled that you took the time out of a nice weekend to join us. And it is recorded, Diana, I think is hovering over the end recording and then the managing she does. And I think we have a zinger at the beginning now on the end for these fancy videos and we'll get them online somehow and back out to people. So stay tuned for a wrap up with that. Thanks, guys. Thanks, Diane, for doing all this. And Taylor, thank you for being here. Hello, my honor to be here. Awesome. On that, well said, we will see you next time.