 Good evening. Welcome to the Wanren film screening event. I'm Zhang Guiyu. After a whole year of fantastic screenings, we are ending the Understanding Taiwan Through Film and Documentaries series with this special event. It's a three-day big shot. We can see the film today we are showing tonight is Super Citizen Co. Zhao Ji Da Guoming. We're extremely honored to have Director Wanren with us at SOAS tonight. And now please put your hands together and give a warm welcome to Director Wanren. Thank you for coming. This is my first, second time in London, England. The last time is 1987. So this is a long time. I remember at times I had one film called Favourite Channel to the London Film Festival. So this is my second time. Today I'm very honored to present my film. This film is about, I think it's 1995, just 80 years ago. It's very easy for me to remember it because that's one year before my son, Henry was born. Henry is here. I love you all. And one thing important is that you haven't seen this film before. Okay, so after seeing the film, I think that the best qualities of everything in nowadays, because I haven't presented the DVD, you know, so this is the best quality so you can find that in there. So it's a great food, you'll be seeing this film. And after seeing the film, I would like to answer all kinds of questions. So now enjoy the film. Thank you. Thank you. When Director Wanren agreed to come to SOAS, we were very excited. It is not just because he's a major figure in cinema, also internationally. It is also because he's one of the most influential new wave directors. So in a Q&A later, you can really ask plenty of questions, and especially his way of perceiving how he presents his film. But before we start the screen, I do like to introduce you about him as a filmmaker. As some of you know, Taiwan's new wave cinema emerged in the early 1980s when Taiwan's film industry was at its lowest point. In order to introduce new blood into the rigid and stagnant local film industry, the KMT-run Central Motion Picture Cooperation, the CNPC, recruited seven unknown and very young filmmakers to produce two poor-mental films. One is In Our Time, Guangying Degoshu in 1982, and the second one is his son's big doll that's Erzadao in 1983. These two watershed films heralded the birth of Taiwanese new cinema and also the rise of a new generation of directors that including Wanren, Edward Yang, Hou Xiaoxian, Zeng Zhuangxiang, and all these people. So Wanren's debut, The Taste of Apples, Pingguo the Ziwei, was one of the three short films in his son's big doll. This film is based on Huang Chunming's novel and that satirized the American imperialist influence in the post-war Taiwan and also dealt with the industrialization. The strong social concerns and his humanistic approach in this first film have set the tone for all of his other films later on. Throughout his career, he has preferred to make topical films and insisted on socially relevant topics. Therefore, Wanren's works have always been politically sensitive and socially aware. His humanistic approach and sensitivity towards social ills is similar to other new wave directors, but very unusual I think, although you probably won't see in all these films we are showing in this series, is very considerate about women's role and also deal with this kind of contesting role as a traditional woman and your responsibilities and the modern aspiration to fulfill your self-fulfillment and to work. So tonight's film is his most famous work, Super Citizen Co. 超級大国民, released in 1995. This is the second of the Super Citizen trilogy and of course is the most successful and famous one. The film is his own reflection on the 2 to 8 incident and the why terror and challenges how history is remembered and whose story is told. Tomorrow night, Dr. Sivio Lin is going to focus on this particular film and I really wish you will come back and discuss with her and listen to what she said about this particular film and also talking about why terror and 2 to 8. On Wednesday night again we will start early, 6.30, don't come 7, that will be your first interesting film because that film is a satire, although it's 11 minutes long, it's very funny, I saw it, so it is funny. Okay, that was his recent trailer, a new film called It Takes 2 to Tangle and this particular film, sorry, this trailer was actually the version he showed to the mainland investors because it's dealing with the very interesting, complicated across stray relations. So finally, Director Wan Ren would like me to specify that what you are seeing tonight, this particular version is a very special one, not only is the director's cut but also it's a version that he recently compiled and he's going to, I think, release the DVD because it's never been released in the past. So it's a very special version and you're the first one to see it. Okay, and we will talk about Wednesday's film tomorrow, I think. So before we start the film, as usual, sorry, on behalf of the Center of Taiwan Studies, we would like to express our thanks to the support that we have always received from the Ministry of Culture. Yang Xiaojie, okay. And the generous donation from Dr. Samuel Ying. Without this support, we would not have been able to put on this series of events. So now, without further ado, let's start the film. Thank you. We just take a few questions and Director Wan can answer your questions. Sorry, let me read this. Anyone? Okay. Ian first, I mean, yes, second. Maybe we take Ian's first and then Ian, okay. This is a fantastic film. I've not seen it before. I try and see it again, I see it again, I'm sure. I think it's a film about many, many things. There's a film there about integrity and identity. There's a film there about inner rage and memory and about getting old. What I'm very interested in this film is how you selected and supervised your score. A large part of this film, over half, has no score. You just use the atmospheric, you've got the graveyard scene, for instance, where for the first half there's no music and you just let nature take over. You can hear a very mild nature. There's no birds put in or anything. You don't artificially drum it out and then you put the music in in the more reflective parts. So it's a very taxing film. I just wondered, presumably you were completely in control of the music. How did you select the music and what made you use it at some moments and other moments have almost no music at all? Well, in fact, no music. I mean, did you regard this score as very important to the film? Okay. Of course. Oh, sorry. Of course, Dr. Inkson, basically speaking, your film is very interesting, very touching. But he noticed that the use of music was particularly interesting. Especially when he was talking about looking for Chen Zhenyi's score, there were some scenes where there was no music at all. There was only background music, a lot of communication and the sound of the wind. But later on, in the highest court, you can say in the highest court, you started using music. That was just an example. He said, in fact, in your film, a lot of things were not clear. So what was the principle of using music? Can you talk about it? I think it's better. I think it's best to use the Chinese language first. Okay. First of all, at the beginning, this film was nominated by the Golden Horse in first of all in Taiwan. It's nominated for the best pictures, the best director scripts, the music and actors, and so on. But eventually, I got the best actor and the best music. So the music, I think music in my film is a very important aspect. Because the film is so emotional. This film, I've got a few, quite a lot of awards, for example, like Golden Horse Award, for music as well as the best actors. And for him, it's very important music play or sound play a quite important role in this filmmaking. And because he felt that's something quite emotional. Okay. I'm going to talk about a very important aspect. This is a very sad movie, but I've heard that this film, because I've shot a Super Citizen before, it's about some of the anti-treatment films in Taipei City. It's the anti-treatment films from the industrial society to the industrial society to the anti-treatment films from the industrial society to the anti-treatment films. Okay. For example, although it's really a tragedy, but every now and then ha ha ha laughing, but sometimes quite funny. For him, it is not a clear cut between a tragedy and comedy. For example, before this, the first Super Citizen trilogy was Super Citizen. That's a Chao Ji Gong Ming. That's Su Ming. Sorry, Chao Ji Shi Ming. That was a proper sad time and it was quite ironic and sometimes his film examined the transformation from the agricultural society to industrialization and he's especially focusing on this kind of marginalised figures and characters and you can see in his film quite a lot of this kind of marginalised people. So originally, this film should be a Super Citizen film. A anti-treatment film. So you didn't expect the original to be like this. The original idea was actually this film was originally should be a satire, a comedy, a black comedy. But I think the political film is the last two films. My favourite is the one of the Eastern European countries. The political film is often used as a comedy to criticize. You understand what he's saying. Because politically critical sometimes it's the best tour. It's actually comedy. So using a satire to mock. It's very effective and he was saying funnily sad or sad for me. It's a comedy. A black comedy. We are more than 60 years old. In fact, we have passed the age of martial law. But it's hard to imagine. When we were young, parents told us young children can't speak Chinese. Okay. In his 60s probably for many of you young people wouldn't even imagine how it was like when not just with 60s, like 50s people also went through martial law and his parents generation always told him and warned him not to use his mouth only use your ears. Always listen. It is absurd most of the time if you look at what happened during the white terror period and actually if you look at politics across the world quite a lot of absurdity is actually the same. Can we let Dr. Mingye just also ask a question? Thank you very much for the film. So two questions. Where is the inspiration for this script and where did the investments come from? You mean I will leave it to you So sorry but I have to answer your question But generally because especially after the terror the Taiwan people are not only awesome and this is political This until now It's like in the movie 先生竟然认为政治是另外一回事,所以这种是一个很好的讽刺的题材。 Just carry on the previous topic that was talking about in Taiwan now. Everyone's talking about politics, but everyone's definition is different. And for example, the Sun in law had a very different view about politics in comparison to her dad. So the story from the beginning is actually very simple. When a couple went to the election, they bought a lot of tickets. In 1995, that era was a very convenient time. From a terrible time to a terrible time, a lot of tickets were sold out in that era. I want to take this kind of video. Just to make sure that one of their fathers was the victim of the white terror. Just you? Okay, okay. You're talking about the story. The original story. Originally it should be a comedy. The original idea was that during the 1990s, it was such a transitional period. For Taiwanese, during a period that you shouldn't speak out about anything anywhere or anytime. But suddenly, during the 1990s, suddenly everything's open up, then everything's possible and everyone's talking about politics. So from a period that you can't talk about anything to the next, within a few years, everyone's talking about it and even taking it as something you can make money of. So for him, it's such an ironic and comedic sort of thing. So the most simple thing is to buy tickets. And buying votes is the most, for him, the most absurd. And during the vote counting, usually if, and he said, of course this is the KMT, when they were counting votes, suddenly the lights were off, be off, and the blackout, and then switch back again, and make them figure it would be a bit different. So originally, the storyline was the father-in-law of this politician's wife. So father-in-law of this politician, of course, is actually this kind of character who's a victim of the white terror. However, in this particular storyline, he was the one always wearing the airfoam and did not to talk about politics to his grandson. If he wants to talk anything seriously or honestly, he had to move towards... High-law. High-law, or something like that, so he can interrupt some sort of... Transmission. Transmission, or some sort of... So because time is limited, I'll just say that. Yes, yes. Okay, so it actually changed the storyline after research, and after whole years research. So actually, it is a label of love because he realized how important this topic is. It's not just about a mocking of the current, but also a remembrance of the past. And we have two questions. I have to say, because we do not want to waste our reception outside. So make it quick, but we can still take more questions. Is that all right? Sorry. Can I just say them? I'll speak in English. Yes. 25 years ago, Dapheth and I watched the Chinese film Li Yu. Li Yu? Li Yu. By the director Sun Dalin. Li Yu was in the 90s, from the 1960s. A very, very sad, tragic film. And in the 1990s, it was shown for the first time in the Chiang Kai-shek Memorial Hall, the Zhongzheng Jinyan Tang. And when people came on stage, the Taiwanese audience burst into laughter. And I was shocked because this film had been so serious. And suddenly it was a comedy. And I remember wondering why this was. And I asked my teacher at Tidar, and she said, oh, perhaps it's the language. The language, if I have to date. San Xinyan Dai from the 1930s. So I wondered, because your film was made, what, in 1995? So that's already 20 years ago. Is there anything you would change if you were to make it today? No, no, no. OK, hold on. Let me ask another question, then we can answer all together. My grandfather didn't have a lot of luck to go to Lüdao. He went to Lüdao after he was taken to Chiang Kai-shek Memorial Hall. Thank you for giving me a lot of inspiration. In fact, we, my partner and I, after two weeks, we had to go back to Tidar to film the wedding. So I went back to Lüdao to film. I just wanted to tell these people, now they're still there. I haven't been to Lüdao for several times. There aren't that many people. I don't have any now. I just want to tell them that we're still there. And we remember them. Thank you, director. Great. OK. This lady here is the third generation of the victims of T2A. No, not T2A. My wife Tara. She was saying thanks to Director Wai Ren that give her this kind of reflection and also because this is quite a mirror, mirroring what happened to her family. And it is very touching for her and meaningful as well. OK. In the previous world revolution, in the revolutionary period, what was the exception of Taiwan? Taiwan didn't have a transition. You know what I mean? That is, Taiwan is a peaceful transition. So no one has ever tried to chase and hurt these people, including Jiao Jie Shi. OK. It is... Wow. For Wai Ren, it is something very unusual about Taiwan's transformation, political transformation. Because during this transformation, there's never a process of punishment or justifying them. Anyone can say anything about this? Transitional justice. Transitional justice about this. Because it's a peaceful transformation, that means there's no formal process of actually dealing with the victims' suffering and also to punish all these prosecutors. And of course, you know, he wants to trace back. So what sort of persecutor... Sorry. How can you trace back to the person who actually imposed this kind of injustice? But it is quite difficult to trace back to the original person. So that particular scene of two old men sitting face-to-face to each other, going through a glass of wine and this kind of redemption. And that's what he wanted to deal with. OK. So he traced back to this person who actually imposed this, you know, to him and give him forgiveness. There's a process of it. OK. But he said that was original storyline but he felt that's not. It's too stereotyping and it is not actually profound. So what he wanted to do, something better than that. Another year. Another year. It is very difficult for anyone to say sorry sincerely and really deeply felt an apology. It is not something that easily you can give. There's a very important criminal law in Aussie criminal law, the article 100. Whoever wants to subvert the government will be a death. Yes. The leader. That's why Chen Zhenyi was the one. Eventually. More complicated. OK. OK. The whole story is because of that particular article. And when one person escaped, or at least in this case, and everyone would say, everyone else would say that's the leader. So once he's caught, he will be considered as the leader and he will be put to death. So I think using this method to make this leader feel guilty at the end of his life. So using this method, I would say sorry is a redemption. It is an salvation. I think it is the most touching. It is touching the victim. In fact, I rarely talk about this. I hope I can touch the victim. So you're sorry. OK. You know what I mean? The victim says sorry. The victim. OK. So for him, the most important part of this film is not just for Kou-san to say sorry to his friend, but also he wanted to touch the prosecutors who actually imprison everyone and torture them. He wished to touch them and want them to say sorry and felt they're guilty. OK. It's the real case. When you saw this particular a scene that he was walking on the beach and sitting on the beach and looking out, that's a real case in Taiwan. 34 years ago. 34 years ago. He present 30 years ago. He present 30 years ago. He present 30 years ago. He present 30 years ago. And... In fact, in many cases, the final result of our research is absolutely not like some materials. Every girl is very loyal to her father. In fact, a lot of complaints. That's true. So of course, you can also see in such a different way of remembering the incident between the father and the daughter and actually for the family, the victims' family, there are plenty of complaints and, you know, this satisfaction. We won't answer the question about this. If we look back, will it change? No. Nothing at all? No. I want to talk about this. I think you really have to pay for it. No matter which industry you work in, you have to pay prices especially for ideals. So you just have to get ready for it and the same thing applies to filmmaking. Of course, having ideals is the most important thing in life. Otherwise, what's the point? I don't think there's anyone who dares to do it. But we did it. I think... I was thinking, because after your film came out, there was a famous German film, The Lives of Others. Right? It's about the winter. The winter. I think art is not a dialogue. The director watched your film, so he took the film and got your impression. So I said, you've watched a lot of films in the last 20 years. You've watched a lot of films. Really? And Tom Lee Dillin wouldn't have any impression on your way of thinking. You mean, in which film? The mainland? I mean, The Winter. Oh, The Winter. No, not too much. I'm just saying... The Lives of Others. I'm just saying that the political... I think they're thinking of the flip around. I think this is... Yeah, the point is that the director of The Winter watched your film, There is a relationship between two things. I think a lot of things are the same. It's the same as the same as the same. Because the same is the same. The same is the same. The same is the same. The same. I should say this. I saw a picture of the London Tower a day ago. Did you see it? Did you notice that I didn't take pictures of this picture? Because that is what makes a human being. I think a human being's personality shouldn't be so cruel. A soldier is so cruel. But the world is so cruel. Wow. Do you want me to translate it? No. He went to the Tower of London and saw the torture chamber. And he said, I'm not doing that in my film, even though there were plenty of torture. Because it is not something that I wanted to do. Because a human should not do it. But a human should never do it. Of course. I mean it's very simple. In fact, it's a very dangerous film. But I did it at that time. I'm very impressed. It's been a long time since I made this film. It's been 40 years since I made this film. The investment was a difficult topic for me. Especially during the 1990s. Making a film about politics is not something that easily gets money. After over a decade of coming back and talking about this for the first time, it is very difficult. I'm kind of emotional. I just asked my son, is he the mother of his mother? Yes. It seems that he is still like this. Oh. Do you want me to translate it? Okay. He did ask his son just now. Because the actress who played the daughter is a director's wife. So he did ask his son, does she look like it? Yes. I always said I should answer your question. How do we... Because this film is the hardest, we can be more sentimental, more touching, more touching, more touching. But I think he is an inner, an old man. What is my impression of him? He has already passed away as an actor. He got the best actress in Golden Horse, a famous film festival in Taiwan. He is not as young as I am now. I am 63 years old. Okay. Talking about the use of music, is that I feel to express more emotional, deeper feelings. Sometimes music is very powerful. And of course, I have to say, okay. Also facing the issue of aging, not to mention the actor was 63, younger than he is now. So sometimes I suppose... Yeah, okay. 60-year-old man, but I want to I want to make him less talkative. Because that is the real loneliness, the real guilt. The real feeling is less talkative. So music is more important, isn't it? Yes. I will talk about it later. It just meant there is not much dialogue of this old man much. It's sort of like a manifestation of his loneliness and being isolated in his own world. Because there is more space but I didn't do it like this. He can do a lot of space. But for this government space, for your son he can't answer. Okay. He could have made loads of accusations about who didn't walk to him or complain about the past or what sort of torture he suffered but he had done nothing like that. Especially for the daughter. He can get a lot of explanation that's different. And especially facing the complaint from the daughter and he made a conscious decision not to respond or take him by himself. Sometimes the biggest pain is not pain anymore. It's more painful. So the deepest pain is not something that you can feel it's that you are more or less paralyzed by this kind of pain and suffering. Yes. Right. Torture. To make this actor get into this kind of mad mindset so usually during the filming process he will be ordered to sit aside, no one talk to him so that's why Jules said it's almost like a form of torture so he's being isolated even in the film set. To be honest I have a different view of life in this film you see a lot of the always off-screen dialogue a lot of walking when this film is finished he is drunk he is drunk in the film set really? Yes he can't speak a word and can't walk so this is destiny everyone is like this it's not destiny it should be my responsibility he is really so by the end of this film making process actually he had a stroke he couldn't move and he couldn't speak compared to his as a kid he made a lot of dialogue always and walking at the beginning it's sort of not destiny but it's sort of like he performed his task and filled his mind that's a life Master Act Really? I want to answer a question I can because it looks actually he is an artist not an art film not a popular film this film it is considered as art film it is not something commercial this film if there is no music for many people if there is no music it might be a little bit boring not a little a lot of but I find it very powerful but I asked my son is it a little bit slow for the young people the tempo is a little bit slow he is pride Director what I did ask his son is it a bit slow for you pace wise a little bit so I think but the point is not for boring I think music in a sad mind is a not to say for the main character for the audience how to say not to say freedom so the importance of music is here so music is so important just to heal your wounded heart but also I think he thinks it is a kind of catharsis that really wash out all the pain and suffering redemption redemption redemption redemption redemption redemption redemption okay so this is a kind of redemption redemption but I don't know why music nothing to do with music okay so it is really about redemption and I think the music I think I think it is a kind of redemption so when you listen to music you will feel a lot of people the feeling of music it seems to me watching this film that the the non-musical part of the film is the film where the action is overpowering or what's happening is overpowering and you leave the natural sound to dominate and then immediately following almost in a rhythm there's almost a scanning rhythm when the audience is meant to be reflecting and absorbing what's happening then the music comes and carries and I find that very, very, very effectively so it's not a question it's a kind of comment okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay Okay okay okay okay So he thinks that using music like this is very interesting. Yes, in fact, I think that in professionalism, in fact, this thing, TECA, will be more time-consuming than other types of music. The reason is that you are thinking about how to arrange it, especially music and music. I remember you said it was done in Japan. No, it wasn't TECA, it wasn't important. The important thing is that you are editing. He spent a really long time on editing the music, and it's almost equally important as the visual. So you are definitely right that you pick up the sound side of the film. Not only the music, you know, all the tempo. So you are here. Don't ask the last question. I mean to say that every era has a different tempo. So when I look at this tempo, of course it's a little bit slow, but this thing, for example, when we are playing or doing a shot, we need to stay one more second, or even set the frame, we are all going to struggle. So this piece is easier to read, to watch, but it can be a bit faster, but the feeling is gone. I mean, sometimes it's really slow. In fact, everything is in the heart of this old man. This is the most important thing. So a lot of things need a lot of natural sound effects, or another thing is the sound. So you are saying that the color of this piece is not accurate. For us, the color of the film cannot be too low, so my family's color makes it a bit lighter. I remember 20 years ago, I saw the master of the puppet, he was very slow, but now after 20 years, I think your speed is not slow. Is he slow or am I slow? No, I said before, 20 years ago, it was me. I think it's too slow, but now I'm a bit slower. So I'm a bit slower. I was saying, I was thinking that you might be a bit more mature, but you might be getting older. It's like my current feeling is very big, because when I was in my 60s, I was 45 years old, 45 years old. My first film was 33 years old. Now it's 64 years old. I think there are quite a few differences. Especially when you look at it, we just... I'm speaking Chinese now. Anti-New Korea, right? Yeah. That's 1995, this year, in Taiwan. Still relevant. Still relevant. So I think documentary film inside this film is very important. It's so real. It's like the Shanghai Fair. I think there are too many factors in this film. So I think there are too many ways to shoot white heroes. But this is my final choice. OK. The last question. OK. I have a question that follows up a bit on Malcolm's question. I mean, of course, I love the way you bring in... You make us think about Taiwan in the 1950s and then Taiwan in the 1990s. OK, so the question is... The film is almost 20 years old now. To what extent do you see change in the way the audience sees this film compared to the 1990s and today? Are the audience reactions different? Actually, this film is always showing the film, the school reaction in college in Taiwan. But I think the reaction is always the same, right? The same. I just want to... I'm not sure if my son is 80 years old or there may be a new, new generation, I don't know. But the emotion, you know... I think they're all the same. You mean the reactions are all the same? Yes, the reactions of the people should be the same. Because you easily think about it. For example, the costume that I saw was from the generation of my parents. They were in Longshan. But this may not be the same. I want to let many people know that Taiwan has a 50-year influence on the Japanese people. Although it may not be as big as South America, it has a big influence on the Spanish people. But this 50-year influence is very big. This means that the government of Taiwan cannot understand it, even the mainland government cannot understand it. I think one feels that actually all the reactions or the responses of all the audience are actually similar, even though 20 years ago or now. The only difference probably is people probably can't really see the costumes... pick up the costumes difference. Because he wants to show that Taiwan actually got heavy Japanese influence. That's why all the costumes here you can see is very Japanese. And that's the 1950s, 60s that you can still see, especially Taiwanese families, they got this kind of costume. That really just shows the benefit itself. It's culturally very different from those mainlanders, from the mainland of course. The Chinese rulers, why the KMT government or the rulers couldn't understand why Taiwanese can't be Chinese as them? Why do all men always speak Japanese? That's the culture, that's the reality. If they speak very standard, the pecking... that's ridiculous. That's what they do in the 1960s in the Taiwan field. We probably speak the pecking. I know they are still quite a lot of questions, but because we... I'm not answering. Okay. He means the last question. That is to say, what's the difference between 20 years of audience reaction? But I think a lot of this topic, to be honest, I don't like the political part. I hate it. So I shouldn't talk so much politics. He creates politics, but however all his films are quite political. I remember there were many festivals. But I always talk about the cinematic. I don't talk so much politics. Maybe it's because of this. I agree.