 We're being joined by Mike Agiofort this morning on the Breakfast as a Security Analyst. We'll be looking at some security concerns. Good morning Mike Agiofort. Good morning. Well, let's, a little bit of a background, you know, to the conversation. According to reports, no fewer than 6,154,000 fire arms are in the possession of civilians in the country. A report by the SBM Intelligence has actually revealed the number of small arms in circulation in Nigeria and the hands of civilian and non-state actors has been estimated at 6,145,000 while the armed forces and law enforcement collectively account for 586,000 fire arms. This is the report. Now, this has also made, you know, a conversation, a trend of arms proliferation in Nigeria as an impact on the country's internal security, which has led to violent deaths, injuries of citizens. Already, Nigeria is battling an increasing insecurity, especially in the North-East region of the country, and it still throws off a dead-long Boko Haram insurgency that has left tens of thousands dead and more than millions displaced. In recent months, the North-West region is also a hotbed of wanton killings, banditry and kidnappings. Now, non-state actors say that the proliferation of small arms and light weapons have been attributed to the state of insecurity in the country. Meanwhile, the federal government has approved the establishment of the National Center for Control of Small Arms and Light Weapons. I mean, it was actually approved. It has been established. There's also a legislation to die effect from last year, which has actually not even seen the light of day. But however, that's what the situation is. We have Mike Ijofo. I, like I mentioned earlier on, many thanks for joining us. Thank you for having me. I'd like to show your thoughts on this report and development of 6. something million arms in the hands of civilians. Well, it's very worrisome and disturbing, especially in the West African Arab region. Now, how such an amount of little arms in the hands of non-state actors, and it's quite disturbing. I think if they can do more harm than government forces, it goes for a concern and a need for immediate control of such arms. I think that's why the federal government set up that committee to move up illegal arms to the side. All right. Mr. Ijofo, this is about more than 10 times more small arms or light weapons in the arms of non-state actors than you have in the arms of state actors. In your opinion, in your view as a security expert, the issue of weapons proliferation in Nigeria has been a hot subject over the years. I think maybe these days we're becoming more used to it, but some years ago it was a hot issue. People were afraid. I mean, the days of Abbas and Jor, even before Abbas and Jor, they were at times to address this. Now it's, we have weapons everywhere, banditry all over. What is responsible for the current situation? Well, there are lots of reasons responsible for this, all these are current orders and the displacement of the rebels and some of these non-state actors from the Sahel. So they bring in their arms and the images of Boko Haram and their patronization with Islam and ISIS. You know, who are also to visit arms. I think that accounts for the influx of small arms and light weapons to the region. Like I said, it's quite disturbing and I'm going to do everything possible to see how these arms are controlled because they are not controlled in the security of the citizens. And that's why you have more easement of kidnapping, you know, because they have arms in their arms and not just small arms and light weapons, they have this heavy weapon called the, but it's for, of course, a spontaneous and broader aircraft, you know, even though the officers have managed to escape because it's really disturbing. I think the government is worried about it too. More so when we are going to have elections soon. And if you allow these arms to continue to remain the arms of these non-state actors, they are mostly back to it to disrupt the election and don't also forget that Boko Haram does not believe in democracy and Western education. So they do everything possible to ensure that these elections are disrupted. I also know that, you know, the Western government offends on the bandics through area of a band which I have always been advocating for. I think you have seen a result from various things. A lot of arms are received and are shot, but I believe that our security forces should ensure that they at least continue to consolidate on the gains made so far. But I like you to tell us your security expert. I mean, how is it that six million firearms is in possession of civilians? When you compare that to what you have the law enforcement agent having, it's less. We're looking at 586,000 and we're talking about 6,145,000. That's a lot. How did these arms actually get into the hands of civilians who were non-state actors? Honestly, I know that there are lots of arms within the sub-region. But I don't have the exact part. Now, what I don't have is 6 million under our security forces. We only have 5,000 or something thousand. I'm not to show that fact. I'm not disputing the vote. I don't have the fact. But 6 million is a huge number if you come to think of it. I'm not to show, and I don't know the source. I'm not to look it up to see if it's actually correct. I have 6 million over 6 million in the hands of non-state actors. Why do you think actors are non-state actors? I don't have any more doubt. All right. And this particular report has been on for some time. It's placing Nigeria at par with countries like Afghanistan and Syria. We don't know what's going on in Afghanistan. They've had a series of wars right from the day of the Russian invasion of Afghanistan, the Soviets. Right up to the American invasion of Afghanistan, up to the time the Taliban came in and, of course, took over and the Western forces had to retreat or retreated. That starts well documented. We look at Syria. They've been having a civil war for donkey years now. Nigeria is not at war. So I want you to look at this. Nigeria has been put on the same level with this report, which has been up for a couple of years now, at par with Afghanistan and Syria. That force, so some people should be really very scary, but we're not at war. So how come we've been placed at par with Afghanistan and Syria? You see, the least war of terrorism, you know, they have the indices of measuring. And only last week, I think the global terrorist index ranked Nigeria number two. You know, it's, you said, it's quite disturbing because I think only last year or so, we've retreated much higher than 11. But last week, we say we're on the second. And I see not to agree completely with that rating, because you remember the height of these terrorist fights in Nigeria. We have series of attacks in the Northeast. We have the Northwest, North Central, and a little to the South West and the Middle East. And the South East, which is a different bog and stop to the terrorist activity, but this agitation. But how we came to circumambulation is what I cannot understand. But I cannot question that. They had their indices. You have to measure in these areas and releasing their results. So as it is, but we in Nigeria know that at least we are making some progress in terms of the rating and fighting of these terrorists. You know, the issues in the Sahel, maybe northern part of Africa, or northern part of countries in the north of Nigeria. But we know that in the times past, not too long ago, you know, we've seen the discovery of weapons being imported in containers at the Nigerian ports. We're aware of this. You know, it's happened a number of times. You'd see that it said there's some cars have been brought in in the containers. They saw a lot of weapons there. We've also seen, I know we're talking about small weapons like arms, but we've also seen, you know, in recent times also a state governor who had a consignment of weapons being taken to government house. Apart from, I want to talk about this. Apart from the situation in northern part of the country, we have also this report looking at the situation in the southern part of the country. How are weapons making their way to states in southern Nigeria, which are far from the northern borders? I mean, don't they go through the roads? Are they boarding through the ports? Are there situations we saw where, you know, such weapons were found at the ports? Are they one-off? I want to talk about situations in southern Nigeria. Should we also look at probably the Niger Delta militancy to say that was also an avenue for weapons to come in? Because you look at the southern part of Nigeria, it's also a problem when we talk about small arms and light weapons. Yeah, you thought that the origin of this arms missile started long ago after the Niger troops returned from Nigeria. Some of them came back with their arms for the soldiers. Some of them who had none need to re-sold them. Not only they are doing the agitation for resource control, but some of the major actors, not state actors, also exchange student oil for arms and, like we say, we have porous borders. The borders alone, the borders alone, our land borders are not the areas to which we have arms from. So I like it here that some of the arms will come through the ports and actually the crew boys will be after exchange. So you can see that who had a lot of arms in the Niger Delta, for instance, before the government intervened they introduced arms smiths and a lot of people surrendered their arms. Some of them surrendered their arms in their own. And you can see that even as we speak, because of the program display of arms, some of the people in the Niger Delta had a lot to display their arms. So I agree with you they have had a lot of arms in the south, just like it is in the north. Anyway, we are really at war. Well, let's also look at legislation in this regard now. So you have the Senate passing the bill for the establishment of National Commission for Coordination and Control of Small Arms and Light Weapons. Your thoughts, Zach, do you think that this would actually help in cobbling the excesses, I mean, all that we have right now? Will this solve the problem? Unfortunately, we're unable to connect with Mykaja for hoping that he returns and I'd like to share his thoughts on this one because it's very, very, very apt. But, I mean, like we all know, we currently and over time have all of these legislations and we have laws, but some people have queried how far we have gone with implementing and recognising and ensuring that this becomes a thing. So there are several concerns. If we have a legislation, if we have, you know, this go-through becomes you have an establishment or a centre that coordinates all of this. Are we going to get these weapons off? Understanding that he's also mentioned the issue of our borders that are very porous as a major concern. Kofi, you know what we say about our borders. I mean, they're just there. Anyone can come in, can go out with anything and anything whatsoever. So with the legislation, does this really solve the problem? You know, well, the laws are there, you know, but implementation always be an issue. We've had different government commissions and different inquiries and different committees, different initiates by government put together to see how they can bring an end to this. But it's getting worse. It's getting worse. And the reason it's getting worse are the same reasons we have clashes in the country. Same reasons why things are not working in the country because government really is almost nonexistent. The reason why it's getting worse is the same reason why, you know, we don't have electricity. It's the same reason why there are no good roads. The same reason why there's no portable drinking or pipe or water in our communities and the cities. I mean, in Lagos, for instance, you know, you don't have that. It's at the same reasons. And government isn't getting it right. Government is practically not getting it. I mean, people sit down and write laws and have talk shops. What happens at the end of the day? I mean, for Osiewa and her experience to come out and say, look at the situation, you know, it's a private organization. They don't need to do this. But they're doing this, you know. As a matter of fact, one of the things they highlighted in this report is that in their reports is that you have weapons. Merci. You're a Kalaba woman just like me, you know. Do you know you have illegal weapons? This is what they said. Illegal weapons. I do. Factories in Kalaba. Just like you have illegal, I mean, not even illegal. This is what the reports have said over the years from 2021, that they manufacture weapons in, they have a factory, a weapon manufacturing factory in Kalaba, a peaceful Kalaba, all right? And also Enugu, peaceful Enugu. Fact, sometimes you can't tell which is more peaceful Kalaba or Enugu, you know, if you've been to Enugu before. Yes, I have. So you see that it has that Kalaba feel, you know. And this is where they have weapons manufacturing factories, you know. So they're saying in the South, South and Southeast, it's difficult to estimate the number of locally manufactured weapons in this country. So do we have government? If we have government, how are people able to wake up and say, we're going to have factories to make weapons and they're making these weapons? Okay. Since SBM and Osirwa came out with this report in 2021, for instance, and what has been done since then? What has been done? Okay. Did anybody in government say, I'm taking this report and we, see, we went to Susan's local government area, maybe Aquabuille. And we saw in the forest in Aquabuille that this factory, we shut it down. What have they done with the information? The same information that people who are coming out from terrorist camps. Mercy. Kidnappers then. I say, no, we were kept here, we're kept there. How many of them have they been able to gather to say, give us intelligence. We're going to catch these people. We have a guest back by the way. But this has always been the issue. I mean, we have a guest back. I mean, I'd like to share his thoughts on this one. You have also raised some valid consent. Mike, thank you for joining us once again. I apologize for that disconnection on your part. But my question is, do you think that the legislation will solve any problem at all, especially when we have other factors? For instance, you have mentioned the issue of our borders that are very porous. What difference will you make? And also, you know, with enforcement, what difference would the legislation make? I don't see any difference. The laws are there to check control of arms, except you, of course, may be punishment stifle, but you don't want to make any difference. What we need now is enforcement to ensure the control of the arms, you know, even if they're from coming out, more of the ones already inside. Apart from that, I don't see what the legislation is going to do. And in fact, like I said, the laws are there. Possibly we should look at the judiciary by ensuring that those arrested are severely tried and cases concluded. Just a follow-up to what you have actually said. The laws are there. Enforcement is what we need. Why have we not been enforcing? Why is it such a big deal to enforce the laws in our country? I mean, this is not just limited to, you know, having the control of small arms and weapons and what have you. It cuts across the entire country. Enforcement is a big deal. What exactly is the issue with enforcement? You see, there are several reasons for lack of enforcement, you know, on our law, not just only health control. One is a slow judicial process. Our prisons of correctional facilities as they can direct you are congested. We have a lot of cases. Cases can drag up to 13 years whereas the offender who ordinarily wouldn't have stand up to that number of years in prison. So we need to look at the judicial process, look at the correctional facilities, the congested, and those who are should be convicted and are strictly committed and those who are free should be let to go because we discover that even some of them who are in custody, when they come out they become more hardened, you know, because of the conditions. So we need to improve the conditions on the workers of the correctional facilities and even the inmates. All right. Omar Mousseradwa came out as president late Mr. Omar Mousseradwa, you know, introduced the Amnesty Program in the Niger Delta as a way of tackling the militancy issue which of course you say played no small part in the proliferation of arms. Even though their weapons are not that small or light, but it's still a problem. I mean, he initiated this Amnesty Program in 2009 and we're well aware of what, you know, how much has been spent, you know, look at the humongous amounts being spent or have been spent to maintain this Amnesty Program. Do you remember, you know, in the river states when Meshia joined, you know, some federal government officials to receive weapons from the likes of Faradah, Google, and a very papa and cool. But still, I can tell you that in Podhakot we still have weapons, you know, hidden in places that we'll mention on air. But what happened if the Amnesty Program with a lot of investment was meant to address this problem at least from the point of the Niger Delta? Why has it not worked? Well, I wouldn't say it's not working. The truth is that there's no society without criminal operatives. When the president, the late president a year ago at Christian Dada Amnesty and people came and said, when they announced the extent of payment of Amnesty and they were granted Amnesty, this is the fact we made that. It has achieved this, you know, because of our oil, which remains to be has not been disrupted ever since. Apart from few professional destructions where there's disagreement between the oil-respected companies, the multinational banks and the communities where they operate and when they ask for comprehensive shoulders for community. We need the fact, you know, that oil will decrypt oil but there are not major destructions from the agitators. But the fact is, how long can we continue to maintain this? That's the problem. Because immediately they stop the Amnesty. And the Amnesty has not been funded again. The Niger Delta Development Commission and the NDC, the Board has not been constituted. So these are areas that are likely to fill up fresh agitations and actually that government should also look at this instead of... All right, it seems that we have a bit of a freeze. Michael Jaffo, can you hear me? Okay, we seem to have lost him, the picture there telling us that. So, I mean, the point I was trying or question I was asking, I was saying, you know what, at least the Amnesty program was meant to... You won't just come and say, give me Amnesty, I'm coming with your gun. You say, okay, these are my weapons. Take them as a sign that I'm not going to fight to continue the agitations anymore. But you still have a proliferation of weapons. I won't just call them small weapons, small arms or light weapons, but you have weapons in the Niger Delta. It's still there, they're still there. So, I don't know, I wanted to get his face. They didn't give us all their guns. They gave some. There was a notorious sort of, I don't know if it was a militant or a cultist, but Dunwani, who Wiki declared, wanted some time ago. If you see the weapons, he submitted to government when they were doing an Amnesty drive. But this was the same person who... No. ...whose boys were wrecking havoc in a part of the river state. So, maybe these freedom fighters, as they like to be called, didn't turn in their weapons. But Kofiye, to be very honest, I think that he answered the question, you know, the way he raised the concern. And the issue is with the implementation, because however you see it, we talk about the issue of government. So, even if you have, you know, a program of Amnesty, and as it were, people are supposed to surrender their weapons and what have you. But on the other hand, government is supposed to also have a universal system where they checkmate whether or not these arms, those who have actually said it was submitting, are doing the needful. That's where the problem lies. And so, with all of the loss and lofty policies that we have, the issue is still very big on, you know, having implementation. So, we have issue of following and ensuring that the things that are said, the policies are fuller to the latter. It cuts across. Like you mentioned earlier on, you talked about the reason why we don't have power supply. The reason why buildings are collapsing every other time in Lagos and across different parts of the country. It's because of the issue of having agencies. We have the laws. We have different ministries and power statels. We have those who are, you know, heading their fares of, you know, I mean, they're calling the shorts now. But are we following to ensure that we have all of these things done to the latter? Are we implementing? Are we monitoring all of that? That's where the problem lies. Because it's okay for people to just say things and then we have agents as well. I mean, who's looking at what? Who's looking at what's going on? For the want of time, we need to take a break now. When we return, it'll be time for us to look at our second conversation briefly ahead of the 2023 general elections. Please stay with us.